Hollywood Atheist Discussion - Television Tropes & Idioms

Wasn't there another episode of South Park that involved people converting to atheism because preists were molesting little boys? For some reason, they were shoving food up their asses and then puking it to digest it, to parody how people say atheists go about life backwards.

Chandagnac: I removed this from the Battlestar Galactica section:

'Father Cavill, a Cylon (masquerading as a priest, no less) who believes "God" (frequently uttered whilst making finger-quotes) to be callous and indifferent to the suffering of His creations.'

I did this because Father Cavill is not an atheist (and I don't think the series identifies him as such, correct me if I'm wrong). Believing that God Is Evil is not the same as atheism. Besides, the Battlestar Galactica entry on this page already has an excellent example of a Hollywood Atheist (Gaius Baltar) and a subversion (Bill Adama), so do we really need another, shakier example?

fleb: The example was just badly written, because Cavill is an atheist of some kind, though like several on the page, not very Hollywood— when he admits who he really is, he describes God as 'the explanation primitives make up for why the sun goes down at night.' He's the Token Atheist of the Cylons.

Scrounge: "Doctor Cameron, blah blah blah, at least nominally an atheist (she thinks God might or might not exist, but either way she doesn't believe He takes an interest in humanity)." Wouldn't that make her more of an agnostic? Not that agnostics exist as far as Hollywood is concerned, but still...

Filby: On Ed Elric (since I don't want to shift the main article into thread mode), it's possible I'm confusing comments made by his English VA for canon. Vic Mignogna is apparently a devout Christian (who doesn't seem to know the difference between atheists and agnostics, but that's beside the point) and insists that Ed becomes a theist by the end of the series, but it's been too long since I've seen the ending for me to recall if that's correct.

I know that Ed's circumstances are different in the manga, though I recall one point where another character interprets him holding his hands together as a form of prayer.

Filby: ...and seriously, not to be a dick, but can we have this discussion on the discussion page and not in the main article? Like I said, I'd rather not initiate Thread Mode on the page itself.

And if someone has a problem with my addition, I'd rather they just be bold

and take it right out than start a thread about it. (Except the part about Mustang, 'cause I know that bit stands.)

LO Rd: So did I get this right - you added the Fullmetal Alchemist example? Wow, I wonder what version you've been watching, considering I've only seen passing remarks towards religion in both the anime and the manga. I'm guessing it's either your very own imaginary Plot Tumor (do we have a word for this?) or indeed the voice actor's remarks.

Though I give that the example made me realise that religion does have a stronger impact on the plot of Fullmetal Alchemist than I previously thought; after all, Scar's motivated as much by vengeance as by his religion, and god is frequently made mention of. I just don't find that Ed or Mustang get nearly enough crap for their lack of faith to merit a mention here.

Filby: No, Vic Mignogna did go on at one point about Ed "believing in something greater than himself" or somesuch, which as an evangelical Christian he interpreted as God, so I didn't just pull it out of thin air myself. Someone asked him if he had moral qualms about playing an agnostic, and he said (I'm paraphrasing), "Naw, someone has to play Judas in the story of Jesus, and besides Ed comes around at the end." (Which kind of insulted me as an atheist, but whatever.) I'm inclined to believe he was seeing things where they weren't, but it shaded my view of the series for a time.

There is one point in the manga, however, where Ling sees Ed transmuting with his hands together and says to himself something along the lines of, "What is he doing with his hands? Ahh, I see, he's praying." It feeds into the whole "atheist coming around to religion" meme IMO, but enough to warrant mention on the page? I dunno.

I do think that Ed merits a mention, though, since he fits the "grumpy godless guy" trope pretty well.

LO Rd: Heh, I wonder if Ed could fit the Flat Earth Atheist mold, considering he's met some sort of god once but continues to assert his agnosticism.

Black Humor: To be fair to Ed, the guy at the Gate is a real dick, and might not qualify as a God at all. Just because he says he's God doesn't mean he's right.

Sukeban: Anyway, Ed explicitly says that he's an atheist in chapter 1 of the manga, the one about the phony cult leader-like priest in Lior.

Ouroboros That's a simplification. Ed is certainly anti-religion, and makes that explicit when talking to Rose and during his confrontation with Father Cornello, but from the way he acts he comes off as more of a deist then atheist. His views also change, as he makes pacing references to God as a being while investigating the Xerxes ruins.

Filby: I took out the "real-life" examples, because it's too easy to fuel a flame war that way. Besides, if it's real-life, it's not "Hollywood" by definition.

Janitor Just removing some natter.

Jester Removed 'Occaisionally Truth In Television' because my understanding was a trope is only Truthin Television if it's a trend in real life, not just spotted in a couple of isolated incidents. The closest that comes to true is that people do sometimes become atheists after tragic events in their lives, but that's one element of a big trope and it doesn't make the whole trope Truth In Television.

Ouroboros: It is a truth in television if people behave that way or fall into the trope. Just not applicable to all or the majority of atheists. The same that its a truth in television that catholic priests have committed sexual assault. It should be left in there.

((Allandrel)): Removed the following entry:

In From Dusk Till Dawn, Harvey Keitel plays another preacher who lost his faith when his wife died, although he's one of the nicer people in the film. He regains it while fighting vampires, when faced with the choice of being a faithless preacher, or, and I quote, "one mean mother-fuckin' Servant of God." Also, you can't make holy water without faith.

...because Keitel's character is not an atheist; he explicitly retains belief in God, but has lost faith is His benevolence: "Absolutely I believe in God. But do I love Him? No."

Neophos: Not related to any examples, but I was just wondering about this part of the article:

Atheists only seem to have arguments against their culture's predominant religion. There is never any evidence that they've looked into non-mainstream religions for something they can find more plausible.

I don't see why they can't be an atheist just because they haven't tried <whatever brand of religion>. That kinda sounds like something from Jehovas witnesses ("Yeah, you don't believe in God? Well, if you try OUR VERSION OF GOD..."). I see nothing Hollywood about this.

Rissa: I think it's just saying that Real Life atheists frequently have looked into non-mainstream religions, while Hollywood Atheists never do.

Minion Of Cthulhu: "While highly intelligent and a skilled doctor, the title character from House is an utterly cynical, Nietzsche Wannabe atheist, and is responsible for the page quote." What page quote?

Mr Wednesday: Removed the "Real Life: You know someone like this" section, because A: If it's going to be included here, it should be on every Strawman Political example and B: I don't. :P

Mr Wednesday: ...aaand snipped another pair of Real Life "examples":

Richard Dawkins is the quintessential Hollywood Atheist.
This Troper's father became an atheist after a case of Dead Little Sister, only replace 'sister' with 'brother'. Now, granted, he's researched everything well enough to back up his belief, but he's still verging on Hollywood Atheist.

If you think Dawkins is a Hollywood Atheist, you either know nothing about him or assume the entry simply means "stereotypical atheist" instead of looking at the seven bullet points. The second entry is definitely a one for Troper Tales, not a main article. People, can we just assume real life examples for this kind of entry are No Just No territory?

Fine, is PZ Meyers a good example? :P

Ouroboros: As opposed to the real life lists on all the 'bad' religious examples? Since when did athiests earn carte blanche while religious folk are freely allowed to be criticized? Sounds like a Double Standard that permeates this site pretty heavily.

Grimace: Considering what we've had so far is Richard Dawkisn (not Hollywood Atheist) and a Troper Tale, Mr Wednesday was hardly chopping out controversal entries. There's also the fact there's not as many Atheists in mainstream media as Christians (ie. evangelical tv shows, talks shows etc) - makes sense the more of a demographic you see, the more likely you'll come across the crazies and hypocrites. If you really want to stop feeling persecuted against and deperately want to slap someone in there, may I suggest Chritopher Hitchens? Or visit The Fundamentalist page? It's got something for everyone.

Zombie Neith: Neither Hitchens nor Dawkins qualify. They're both learned men (Dawkins more so than Hitchens) who have both given perfectly reasonable explanations as to why they don't believe in any manner of deity. They could both certainly be described as 'militant' atheists (Dawkins endorses the term), but their reasons for being so are, I find, quite well-reasoned.

Mr Wednesday: Sloppiness on the "bad religious" entries is not an excuse for spreading it to other pages. If you think there's a problem with those pages, do what I did and bloody well fix it rather than whining about ill-defined, generalised "double standards" on the site.

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