Dying Like Animals Discussion - Television Tropes & Idioms

Mister Six: Surely bats are the Muggles?

Korejora: Concur. Bats encompass the "willfully ignorant" and "protagonist can't get firsthand witnesses to admit what they've seen" as described: "no proof is strong enough to reveal the truth of the threat". Apathetic Citizens covers the Somebody Elses Problem being played to absurdity for laughs.

How about Rats? (just as scared, but selling a gallon of bottled water for $50, cheap "protection from evil" medallions, rainmaking abilities, etc...

Looney Toons: Sure! Add'em!

Wiki: How about Boars, sure their proud and noble, but they're also stubborn and will blindly and stupidly charge into a sitation that they sitation they should know that they won't last five minutes in. "Lets see, we got about half a dozen pitchforks, a couple bricks, and one sawed-off shotgun that hasn't fired in years. Now were where'd I put those rubber bullets? Ah forget it, probably could take em with my bare hand. Yep, everything we need protect our land and stave off that army of indescrutable, defective killer robots. NOW LETS TAKE IT TO EM!" Yeah.

Earnest: Neatness! Related to Torches And Pitchforks I'm guessing, except that rather than Frankenstines monster it's more like an armored battalion.

Binaroid: It sounds like a split between Torches And Pitchforks and Redshirt Army, with a dash of General Ripper.

Lale: About the Deathly Hallows example, remember they also killed the Minister of Magic. That must have helped. Still fits the trope, but the new paragraph seems more like just ranting about the take over breaking Willing Suspension Of Disbelief.

Phartman: What animal would you use for the type of people whom are fully aware of what the villain is up to, but are okay with it? Sheep don't count, because they're not supposed to know what's really going on. I'm talking about the sort who don't need to be lied to.

Morgan Wick: What do you mean by "okay with it"? Ambivalent, resigned, or actually supportive?

Phartman: Supportive. Like, say the Big Bad wanted to wipe out a minority population, and the majority was totally behind it. Wolverines, maybe?

Morgan Wick: So, like, how Nazism was popular? Bad example, as that's The Government and thus a variant of Sheep. Hmm. Depends on the exact nature of it. If it's anti-Hero, that's Reindeer. But if it's anti-anything else... the Big Bad is whipping up the people into a frenzy to attack a strawman. I don't like Wolverines in that instance. Maybe Bulls?

Hmm. It seems like the Big Bad is trying to turn the people into mini-General Rippers. But that shouldn't be confused with the idea that the people are acting like General Ripper without impetus from the Big Bad. But I just conflated them with my bringing up how this can be a variant of Sheep.

Phartman: I was trying to avoid bringing up Naziism, but yeah; that's about what I was going for.

It can be a variant of sheep, but it's less like "don't worry, the government will handle it" and more like "let's help the government out by turning these people in wherever we find them!" Bulls aren't quite vicious enough for that characterization, how about snakes?

Earnest: Strikes me as a cold war snitches kind of thing, with the citizens so paranoid/insular they spy on each other and turn in or report suspicious characters (AKA, the hero(es)). Might not put the cuffs on the hero, but lead the secret police to his house. Snakes is good, any animal that betrays their own would do. I'd actually rather prefer a non-predator to keep with the meek animal theme, but I can't think of a better fit.

Phartman: Well, boars aren't too meek...

Earnest: Point. They're not herbivores either, are they? Anyhoo, the best animals I can think of for this are pigs, cows, and chickens, since they "don't care" that the farmer is basically killing and eating their brothers, selling their milk, and eating their young respectively. Hmm... maybe pig does have a case? Scratch that, most of this falls under apathy, not complicity.

Phartman: And apathy is already covered under sheep. I'm leaning towards snakes, but there are lots of animals who cannibalize their own that could work, too.

HeartBurn Kid: True, there are lots of 'em, but I think Jackals have the right ring here.

Phartman: You know what? That's a much better idea! Anyone else agree on Jackals?

Tzintzuntzan: I think the Jackals should be something similar but not the same. The Jackals are the ones who say "the aliens/vampires/Villain With Good Publicity/Government Conspiracy will give us two hundred bucks for each human we hand in to be killed? When do we start?" The opportunists and collaborators, in other words. The people who fall for the a/v/n/vwgp/gc propaganda are a different animal.

My first guess is that the propaganda-believers should be the Lemmings, following the lead to doom. (Yes, real lemmings don't do that, but the metaphors use pop culture, not reality.)

HeartBurn Kid: Eventually, we're going to have a veritable bestiary in this article...

Phartman: Ideas beget ideas like water to seed, mon ami. Okay, so for the zealous we'll use Jackals, and for the quietly complicit we'll go with either Snakes or Lemmings. Anybody got a coin we can flip?

Tzintzuntzan: In response to Phartman, zealous versus quietly complicit is a different split from the one I had in mind, which is the ones who are won over by evil propaganda(Snakes or Lemmings) versus the ones who are only in it for themselves (Jackals). But should zealous versus quietly complicit be another set of animals?

And in response to Heart Burn Kid, yes, we will. After all, this is a page about how Humans Are Bastards — one of the most common Aesops out there — and the amazing variety inherent in this Aesop. It's what separates humanity from the beasts. The lowly animals can be but one variety of bastard per species. Only humanity, in its infinite flexibility, can be any kind of bastard found in Nature that they desire.

Phartman: I've opened up a rather impressive can of worms, haven't I? Self serving would seem to fit under Rats, but since they only profiteer rather than participate in the deeds themselves I'd say it's worth making the distinction.

Andyroid: Pulled the Futurama and Drawn Together entries, I don't think this trope really applies to them.

Danel: Is Wizarding England really a democracy? We never hear about any elections; it seems to be a democracy in the loosest sense that Fudge loses his job once he's revealed to be /completely/ incompetent. In any case, for all of the sound and fury about it on the internet, Deathly Hallows seems to show that Voldemort is moving reasonably carefully by first 'registering' muggleborns on the grounds of ridiculous charges, and not yet ruling openly.

Looney Toons: After seeing

In V, Donovan's mother is a rare combination of Sheep, Bat, Mole, Snake and Jackal.

I'm tempted to suggest the Chimera, who is two or more animal types combined...

Earnest: I'd say go for it, it could save us effort down the line to mix and match animals rather than make up entire new mini-entries.

Scrounge: Do we have one for those who become unhinged in the chaos, lashing out at anyone and everyone, good or evil? Scorpions, perhaps? "I can't trust you... I can't trust anyone! I'll only be safe if I kill whoever gets close!" I'm thinking Circuit Breaker from the old Marvel Comics Transformers here, who didn't distinguish between Autobots and Decepticons, using her super-powers to attack any machine that crossed her path without regard for human lives caught in the crossfire, refusing to believe anyone who told her that some of the robots were on their side. In a nutshell, half boar, half reindeer. Also, is it worth noting who's most likely to be killed?

Earnest: Has to be that guy from the last 1/4 of War of the Worlds who completely lost it. Basically, the crazy paranoid. These guys are an extreme version of the Untrusting Community. These guys frequently have something the hero needs, and he has to sane-ify them long enough to help him out, if not outright put them at ease to further the plot.

Scrounge: Not all of them can be put at ease or brought to sanity... Some are like Circuit Breaker

, they rin ramapnt 'til the end and have to be either avoided or fought off without hurting them. Is the distinction worth making? If so, the group that eventually comes around might warrant the label Horses?

Earnest: I'd say that's more of a progression than a distinction. If they're permanently insane they're an obstacle to overcome, but some can become a useful version of Boars loyal to the hero, or at least tricked into helping. The main type could be Wild Horses, with Tamed Horses (or just plain old Horses?) as the "reformed" ones. Kind of like the Sheep - Lambs bit in the main article.

Qit el-Remel: It should be noted that the concept of the stupidly brave and noble self-sacrificing types as "Boars" probably originated with Princess Mononoke (in which they literally were wild pigs).

Filby: I'm taking out the bit about the Iraq War. It's pure opinion, and frankly, speaking as one of those anti-war "Bats" he's talking about, I feel kinda personally insulted by it. Christ, how did I know it was added by RH Junior even before I checked the page history? :P

Leaving in the bit about Chamberlain. I'm inclined to cut him some slack, given that he'd witnessed WWI as it happened and had good reason not to want another world war, but it's how he's gone down in history and remembered in culture.

Filby: As an addendum, I'd just like to say that the current Iraq example looks much better to me since it's about how people are viewed in the media without actually passing judgment on them.

Skazka: I'm inclined to propose another category- that for Lone Wolves who extend their protection to family, friends and lovers. Taking it on themselves to lead the group and all, when the pack is threatened, they fight like hell. A lot like Mama Bears, really. Again, 28 Days Later has Jim and West, though I could probably find more examples if it's worth anything. Any ideas for names? My first thought ran to Pack Alpha, but meh.

Earnest: Well, how are these guys obstructing the hero or endangering others? I could see a "too protective to see the big picture" type guy, but they seem strictly a variant of Lone Wolf.

Skazka: Meh. Since West's an authority figure, not a civilian, I'd agree with that in retrospect. Sorry. Lone Wolf it is, then.

Kersey475: A suggest we add Dogs as a subversion. Dogs are like Boars except they are competent people who will provide a lot of assistance to the heroes and will try not to get in the way. These are usually normal villagers who have been trained by the hero or honest cops/soldiers that provide covering fire for the hero. One example of this animal catagory would be the police in Urban Chaos: Riot Response. The police are competent and pretty good shots, occansionally they will even be able to kill a Burner.

DomaDoma: If they're basically helpful, they don't fall under this trope.

EDIT: Remind me to learn to read. If we're going to list subversions/aversions, do we call the Reasonable Authority Figure an Owl?

Bob: I like Owl.

Earnest: As do I. Y'know, combined with the Pack Alpha suggestion above, these three could make a nice seed for a "Living Like Humans" category trope of 'helpful NPC's'.

Prfnoff: Thoughts on a name for this type?

<Yet Another Animal Type>: "Let's get the hell out of here!" These types' reaction to the mounting disaster is to try to put as much distance between them and it as they can. Often as selfish as Lone Wolves, concerned only with their own safety and not with helping others escape. Their escape attempts might fail disastrously - and if they do reach their intended destination, they might find that the disaster got there first.

Earnest: I want to call them "Rats Leaving A Sinking Ship", but I don't know how to shorten it or make it snappier. I remember theres one guy in the otherwise forgettable Michael Crichton movie Sphere who takes maybe the only escape pod out of the underwater base... only to discover he set the assent rate too high, the Helium atmosphere in his blood kills him as the pressure evens out. Also, most people in a Haunted Castle or Zombie Apocalypse movie who "run around like chickens" qualify. Hmm, maybe Headless Chickens?

Prfnoff: Or just Chickens? (And why didn't I think of that in the first place?)

Earnest: Chickens sounds good. I'll run it by a YKTTW to get some examples before launching. Hmm, should we go with singular or plural?

Wyvernil: Pretty good, but here's a suggestion to avoid using the same animal for Rats and Plague Rats.

How about changing "Rats" to "Weasels"? I think "Weasel" conveys the archetype better, personally, suggesting the devious type turning the disaster to his own advantage.

HeartBurn Kid: I hate sticking weasel words into the anti-war people examples, but it really seems to better fit Cautious Editing Judgement this way. Plus, being against the war myself, this was a bit of a compromise with me instead of deleting it completely (partially because I know and acknowledge that pro-war folks really do see us that way, and partially because there are more than a few loonies on the anti-war side that do fit those to a T).

T-T-T: What would be a good name for the scientists who started the thing in the first place, oblivious to people who told them that it would cause a huge problem?

Earnest: Mule's, perhaps? In that they're stubborn and not too bright.

Sinister Teddybear: Ahem. Exactly what reason did Germans have to hate Jews post WWI, besides being slightly better off due to their own personal successes? There were a whole lot of German Jewish war heroes in WWI

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