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Narrative
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Jahkaivah: Was discussed elsewhere, but was Dominic Deegan really the trope namer of Real Men Wear Pink? The saying is in far too broad circulation for this is seem likely.
Mr Death: As far as this wiki's concerned, it probably is, but I agree that it's a fairly widely used term. For that matter, it's not like it's hard to come up with, so I'd chalk it up to parallel evolution.
Killersquid: Thinking of adding Did Not Do The Research for a few things, mainly these 2: [1]  Hand-made Soaps. In a world with no machines, Hand-made should not have to be added, it then becomes redundant. [2] Beers aging. I know that certain beers age, but it is not likely this is the special kind that gets older after it ages...for 20 YEARS!
Mr Death: A. She doesn't specify "hand made soaps." She says that soaps were among the homemade goods there. B. Who says there's no machines? Just because they have magic doesn't mean there isn't any sort of industry. C. As has been pointed out, there are beers that age, and...well, the last part of your sentence doesn't make any sense. As far as I know, something doesn't have to be "special" to get older after it ages.
Twin Bird: Wow...was this written by John Solomon? Don't you think this is a little harsh for the comic entry? Maybe you don't like it, but it kind of seems like the equivalent to adding "Torchwood sucks" to the end of every paragraph of its entry (and God knows a few of the tropers think it deserves it). Oracle Hunter: Well, I'm working through the comic bit by bit. The "story summary" is, of course, waaay too brief at the moment (and indeed, a bit curt). I plan to expand it once I have time to scour the archives. The reason it seems harsh at the moment is that Mookie really does become anvilicious at times, and those times are the easiest targets. By all means throw in good points if you have them - this *is* a Wiki after all. Mister Six: We are not wikipedia, so there's nothing wrong with editorialising. Ruthie A: I just Archive Binged it, and the Moral Dissonance wasn't really obvious to me...It's not listed in the article, so maybe you guys could point it out to me? (I'm not saying it isn't there, I just didn't notice it...Sometimes I don't notice these things.) Oracle Hunter: Moral Dissonance is kind of hard to spot. It'll take me awhile to assemble a full index of strips, but take a look at the "Ecstasy and Evil" Arc re: Amelia Sturtz. Celesto puts it nicely here. Szark is given a Get Out Of Jail Free Card and a chance at redemption while his wife, who arguably did more social good, is not only murdered, but the murderer is given a pat on the back by Amelia's own sister.
SAMAS: To be fair, however, Amelia did try to get pretty much everybody involved to kill each other.
Ruthie A: Okay, I see that now, thanks. I kind of keep expecting Szark to die when I was reading through the comic, because, generally, Redemption Equals Death and all.
Gattsuru : Celesto's fate is kinda questionable, as well. His kill count included a thug, a chaos magic-wielding mass murderer, and yet the leafling and acibek (the latter of which had already attempted to "get rid of" said mass murderer) have him tossed into a hoary netherworld worse than hell from which there can be no return. He was a right bastard, betraying someone who saved his life, but Stunt gets away with that sorta stuff more often than that.
Twin Bird: However, these are different actions by different characters - Klo Tark "kills" Celesto not for any of the people he did kill, but for trying to kill Dominic. Not to mention that he's implied to be the champion of law. If I recall correctly, Luna's always hated Szark, as well...not to mention that "her own sister" is a bit of a weak defense for Luna.
Mr Death: And I wouldn't say Luna gave him a "pat on the back." She simply said she forgave him, and understood why he did it. A "pat on the back," would've been, "Great! I've wanted to strangle that bitch for years!" which Luna admittedly probably did feel on some level, but she wasn't congratulating Bumper for it.
SAMAS: I don't think the situation between Melna and Stonewater counts as Rape Is Love anymore. The trope is about how the rape itself is the catalyst, while in there case, it was more of a complication. Hell, she broke his jaw first thing the next morning and ran off, which pretty much averted it right there. When they met again years later, she started falling for him because she saw the type of person he had grown into. Oracle Hunter: No, this is actual the archetypal depiction of Rape Is Love. Stonewater acted out of pure motivations (to save Melna from death) and it was, ultimately, that selfless action that causes Melna to associate Stonewater with her father - and thus fall in love with her rapist. Plus, the rape was how the two characters were introduced.
, is closer to Loving A Shadow more than Rape Is Love. The rape is a complication in the matter, not a catalyst, and doesn't carry the *ahem* "positive" connotations that make the trope so Squicky.
Roland: I agree. The Rape itself is not viewed as anything positive. It was necessary insofar as it prevented Melna's immediate death, but not positive and not an act of love. Stonewater is traumatized by it, Melna is traumatized by it, and they never look upon it as anything but awful.
Melna falls for Stonewater because of who he presently is, not because of the rape.
Oracle Hunter: Hmmm... point taken. Melna is certainly Loving A Shadow, particularly since it doesn't look like Stonewater actually has feelings for Melna. Still, it seems a shame to leave this event off the page. Which trope does Mookie's use of (child) rape cover?
Drow Lord: My guess is Shoot The Dog. And finally someone expressed the objection I've had since noticing the DD entry in that trope page...
Caswin: Removing
Roland: As for Strawman Political, I don't think that exists in DD. Sure, loads of Card Carrying Villain characters and execrable human beings, but no one is ever presented as a strawman conservative or liberal- simply Corrupt Corporate Executives. The traits being reduced to strawmen are unpleasant and villainous ones to begin with. Racism is generally seen as an evil trait. So yes, it's Anvilicious, but not a Strawman Political. Willy Four Eyes: In that case, would that make them Villains By Default? Roland: Nah, they don't belong to evil groups or professions- they simply are people with evil traits. If they're anything it's what they're currently marked as Card Carrying Villains. Sci Vo: Please don't use a bullet point to position a reply under someone else's comment on a Discussion page. It makes it hard to tell what was said by whom. Oracle Hunter (re Strawman Political): A Strawman Political need not be 'just' either Liberal or Conservative - it is true whenever an author creates a "straw man" (a weak caricature that is easy to knock down) for a position or class. For instance, the peasants of Lynn's Brook were strawmen for the viewpoint of "the common man" - stupid , intolerant, and quick to anger - as opposed to a more cosmopolitan outlook, like good ol' Dominic.
Oracle Hunter: I don't think Jacob is a Serial Killer. He certainly is brutal and creepy, but he doesn't just run around killing people for no reason. If anything, he's a Well Intentioned Extremist (remember "The Living Zombie?") with a dash of Mad Scientist. Roland: Jacob is all Mad Scientist and no Well Intentioned Extremist. WIE requires a 'good' aim; Jacob just wants power. Willy Four Eyes: Editing and revising the following snippet:
Twin Bird: Removed:
C Trombley: Does MPD at the bottom of the last paragraph mean Multiple Personality Disorder and if so, can I just write it out? Geese: It does, and sure, if you like. CoreDumpError: I'd like to contest the notion that Klo Tark and Siggy's deaths were instances of "Killed Off For Real" that got reversed. We're shown *immediately* after Siggy's death that he's gone to Hell to become a demon lieutenant for Karnak, so he hasn't really been Killed Off For Real. As for Klo, he's also shown sending Celesto to the horror dimension (whatever you call that place) after his death within just a few comics, which tells us that he's not really gone, he's just not alive any more. Readers know that Heaven and Hell exist in that universe, so it's entirely reasonable that dead people aren't erased from the story. Willy Four Eyes: I transferred the Cast of Characters list to the new namespace for it. Does anyone else want to expand/edit it from there to look like the other pages? Mr Death: Took out the Ass Pull listing until it gets an actual example. As far as I can tell, Dominic never reveals "new powers." For the most part, he'll reveal his Second Sight let him play Chess Master but as far as I can tell, it ain't New Powers As The Plot Demands. A Lso taking out this, because, well, it's not making any sense to me:
Kizor: Removed this, since an example followed by natter that disproves that example isn't really good for much. Added it here since it's still interesting.
Mr Death: "From another, a main character responding to a practical joke by murdering the trickster and a number of bystanders, which is morally justified because she's a main character." <—Okay, first off, in the strip in question you don't see any death, and second, has she -ever- thrown a fireball that was fatal? I seem to remember her frying Stunt and Bumper with no ill effects other than singing them. I'm editing this. Kizor: I wrote that, and it is not intended to be a fair and accurate description of the comic strip in question . It is intended to be a fair and accurate description of one extreme of the reactions readers had to the comic strip in question. This is done to illustrate the extent of division among the readers. I thought that was said clearly. The Giant ITP hatedom and the Keenspot snarkers proclaimed that the comic strip in question depicts multiple homicide, and even the DD fan forum and livejournal had people who thought so. Hope that helps.
Mr Death: Fair enough, though the original construction "from one viewpoint...from another..." implied to me that the two were to be viewed equally, so I've edited it to say the second is meant to be a more extreme view.
Kizor: If you wish.
Mr Death: Took out the irrelevant bitching from the Gender Bender entry. Original wall-o-words here:
Personthing: Can someone please explain to me how the Semashi have Unfortunate Implications for Italians? Mr Death: Because a lot of the posters here will try and find anything to pin on the comic to make it look bad, whether it's accurate or not. Just read the rest of this discussion page if you need evidence of that. Mr Death: On the "Unfortunate Implications" of the most recent strip . The listing (which I deleted) said it as if the parents were trying to rationally think things through, and killed the kids just because the teeth might look slightly different than a normal baby. But stop and think a moment: Orcs and humans can apparently interbreed (Melna asks Luna if there are any orcs in her ancestry when they first meet). Orcs and humans are at war with each other at this point. Humans can be very racist toward orcs, and I imagine it was even worse when the war was actively happening.
Considering all this, a baby born with tusks isn't just "a minor physical impurity." It's an implication that someone in the house is sleeping with, not only an "inferior people," but with the kingdom's stated enemies. A family who, all of a sudden, has a kid who may have been sired by an orc (in the middle of the orc war) is likely to be ostracized or worse. And if it's a noble family? They could be downright ruined by the implications, false though they may be. I'm not going to defend killing children, obviously, but there's a lot more going on than "mass infanticide for a minor physical impurity." Original is here:
Kizor: Did Not Do The Research and Unfortunate Implications were removed on the grounds that they have been discussed and not defended on the discussion page, so they are "just more bitching by people who are looking much harder than they should for something to bash the comic about." First of all, nobody here seems to be driving for hostility except you. Second, this seems to be giving discussion pages too much credit. There are no date tags: matters are often just presumed abandoned as the page accumulates more material. In the absence of a definitive discussion like the ones you were looking for, let's have one. I've been following the Giant in the Playground snarking and strip slaying. I don't hate the comic, but I am no longer able to enjoy it. Instead, I do enjoy their humor. Did Not Do The Research has every right to be here: just recently, the main character got an arrowhead embedded into his forearm. It did not even disturb his balance, and he's putting weight on that arm the very next day. He's also in an explicit no-magic zone without a healer, before surgery, before antibiotics, with no sign of a fire and not enough of a time-lapse to build one. In fact his crew is trekking across a great desert, in the daytime, with their heads completely unprotected. The natives at least have excuse of chlorophyll, or something. I don't get the Semashi having Unfortunate Implications, but then I'm from the remote North - I'm white enough to verge on translucent, and so's everyone else I know. What do I get about race? The trouble seem to be that the Dominion's cultures (a) often show signs of being Expies of real-world ones, yet have universal traits, (b) have universal traits in the first place, (c) are commonly described through blanket statements and stereotypes, * and (d) show clear cases of Noble Savage, Mighty Whitey, and Positive Discrimination. ( It seems reasonable that people can find this uncomfortable without going out of their way. Mr Death: I'll admit I was a little annoyed when I made that edit. I tend to get a little more heated than I should over these things, but in my defense, there have been people who have put up either exaggerated or blatantly false information in order to point out the comic's "flaws," like saying Dominic's Chess Master-ing is impossible because he can only see the definite future, rather than possible futures, the past, or the present, when it's been demonstrated and stated that he can see all four. I'm sure there are things where he Did Not Do The Research; even the best authors will miss something. So put up those examples you mentioned, rather than something vague like "glasswood," where nobody can seem to find an example. Just look up above for the stuff on the beers, for example. Ditto Unfortunate Implications; just about anything, even by the best authors, will have something in it that can be seen as such. That said, I don't see how the Semashi are an Unfortunate Implication of Italians either, and I'm part Italian. If there's something you see as Unfortunate Implications, list that and link to an example. At least get rid of the "on every subject" and "far too many to list" things, which to me do come off as trying to bash the comic. Kizor: You're spot on regarding the people involved. So. I was intrigued by glasswood and looking at the last part to feature daggers brought up this . It doesn't seem to have happened more than once, but did happen at the right time to become the poster boy. I can't list the examples I gave because the lack of research isn't just apparent in them, but the general situation - take simple human anatomy in a years-old strip, with one of the missing leg cases (Dex, left) and whatever this is supposed to be. Nobody's perfect, sure, but you can't blame human failings when no groundwork was done. "On every subject" is nevertheless unfair. I'm adding "on all kinds of subjects."
The guy who listed the Semashi says that he's forgotten what he was on about. I'll ask him to replace it with orcs.
Kizor: While we're at it, I added I Got Better following Dex's , which states that the author didn't want to kill him off - the very definition of I Got Better. Sure, the following strip praises his will, but he might as well have been healed by Martians as far as plausibility is concerned. Mental strength will not knit tissue to achieve homeostasis.
Selior: It seems that somebody can't stand a presence of any critical tropes on main page. Kizor: He's hitting other Dominic Deegan pages and evading bans, too. Thanks to you, Katsuhagi and Rebochan for keeping things together. It's interesting how he started by incising critical material, then started hitting everything near it, and has now moved to straightforward vandalism. What's the trope for that? Maybe we could repel him with The Power Of Love, if people who like or don't hate the comic came here to say that they prefer an article where the fandom and the hatedom live together in harmony, rather than an article where one has been forcibly evicted. Anyone?
Kizor: If I was any less anal, I'd be worried about how often I show up on this page. There are two competing versions of one bit in the intro, could you give me your opinions on which you prefer? I'm in favor of the former (mine, incidentally) as the latter is far clunkier to read and goes out of its way to debunk what is already stated to be a deliberate misreading.
Mr Death: On the Crossing The Desert thing: I get it, he Did Not Do The Research. I'm not disputing that, since Kizor apparently has experience on the subject. I'd just like to ask if the entry could maybe not read with the undertone of "Mookie's an idiot". Also, just because they haven't said they're using magic, doesn't mean they aren't. Remember, this is a world where magic is just a part of every day life, and is taken for granted. If you're going somewhere, do you stop to talk to your fellow traveler about how you're going to use your automobile and put gas in it so the internal combustion engine can move the wheels? Of course not, so in a world where magic is used so commonly, they're not going to stop and explain to each other every time they use it, especially if it's a type of magic that's already been explicitly explained to the audience. And on it being a magic deadzone: look at Spark. Spark can still talk, explicitly because he retained the magic in him, so it's logical to believe that things that already had magic intrinsic in them (like bags of holding) would retain that magic on going into Maltak. It seems to be that you just can't cast spells in Maltak, so bags of holding should work. And honestly, they'd have to have bags of holding, otherwise tents would be all that would fit in the back packs. Kizor: I'm right with you on the undertone. Mookie seems like the kind of guy I'd have a few beers with, if we lived on the same continent and if I drank beer. My interest is in a page where TV Tropes Magic can make fans and snarkers live side by side, and if you saw an undertone in the Crossing The Desert example and removed it with your edit, thanks. Regarding bags in Maltak, what you describe would be a valid way of writing fantasy, it's just inconsistent with the way Dominic Deegan has been written. Magic has usually been described explicitly, and Mundane Utility is rare. Even if the setting did have well-integrated magic, it'd still be desirable to keep the events relatable and understandable. It'd be a cinch: Instead of having characters chat while walking, one could have them chat while making camp and pulling out items larger than their backpacks. The use of protection against forest fires in a desert and the lack of mentions of supplies in a long story about an expedition also suggest that the arc focuses on characters and portrays survival more as a backdrop than consistently. You're spot on about Spark, so I'll add a note saying that bags of holding have been mentioned years ago. Doing more would IMAO be too much of a stretch, we shouldn't interpret every shred of evidence to defend the comic any more than to attack it. We should be fair in both directions. On that note, I wondered if it'd be rude to add Blood From The Mouth, noting that Luna wasn't hit anywhere in the mouth, lungs, or upper GI tract. In the last four strips we've witnessed archers either attacking with one arrow when they could've fired a volley or firing a warning shot at someone's face, an obvious art mistake that the author admitted but didn't fix, three groups running into each other at the same time, a chief issuing an attack while high, the most dangerously Sueriffic character developing Fertile Feet, and (in author-approved fan art) a pair of decomposing tits. I'll add the blood, all of a sudden it seems like a much smaller issue... Mr Death: I'm fine with the Blood From The Mouth since, yeah, it seems to be used as shorthand for fatal wound, rather than a realistic result of the wound she actually suffered. I'm not sure that Mundane Utility is rare, per se (we've seen, among other things, Luna walking around with shopping bags floating behind her, one of her coworkers uses a spell to change from her work clothes to her normal stuff, and Greg was using his buffing spells to help rebuild Barthis), but I'm with you on the rest of it. We shouldn't be overly critical or defensive, which is part of why I had potholed Fan Wank into my additions to the main page about the bags of holding. Mr Death: On the "non-lethal arrow volleys" issue: I think we should wait and see just what he comes up with as explanation before we say it won't work. I mean, at least give him the benefit of the doubt, since he's at least acknowledged that he's aware of it. Kizor: I'm for the benefit of the doubt, but there was really no other way this could've gone. The archers were already firing into a melee at that point. Thanks for giving in once the outcome was clear: that's a bit of a rarity on the Internet. We're going to have to add this to Hollywood Tactics. A snarker pointed out that this was akin to a captain ordering his men to throw down their muskets and meet them injuns with good old fisticuffs. Another argued that this was closer to ordering half his men into close combat and the other half to fire into the crowd. Incidentally, I'm expanding the Chosen One entry to point out why it's a problem that Luna's personality and deeds are irrelevant to her role. I intend it to be educational, but it's going to be biting. I also tweaked Crossing The Desert to reflect new information. Mr Death: It is Hollywood Tactics, but to be fair it is being shown as a losing tactic, at least while they're trying not to kill (inspirational leader and Chosen One he may be, but nobody in the comic's ever called Stonewater a tactical genius). But yeah, I know when I'm wrong, and there's no point in fighting a losing battle on the internet. Besides, the only other thing I could come up with as an explanation is if the orcs are using Chandak magic to "guide" the arrows to deliver non-lethal wounds (like Melna's father did to stop those spikes from hitting her and her mother), but that'd be a stretch at this point considering, besides Stonewater, the comic hasn't established anyone else as being a Chandak, and Melna's father was able to do it because he was an exceptional one. |
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