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This is an "It Just Bugs Me" entry. This area of the wiki is more friendly to the idea of conversation in the article itself, due to the highly subjective content. The regular entry on this topic is in the main wiki.
Twilight

Please try to poke around this page before editing. There have been a lot of repeated issues, and if the one you're adding has already been mentioned, respond to that if there is still something you would like to say about it, rather then from a new bullet.
  • Sorry I know its been explained but since it was asked again I couldn't resist the temptation to answer. I will try to clarify it next time.
    • Still, we need to keep the page tidy. Otherwise the discussion part of JBM will be sorta moot here, after a while.

  • Ever notice that it's always a girl who falls in love with (or even gets bitten by) a vampire, in all these so called 'vampire-sexy' movies, TV Shows and books? Even female vampires only seem to bite girls. And the victim girl will probably be making noises like: "Ah, ah, ah, ah, ahhhhhhh!" with an expression of complete sexual orgasm in her face. Is this merely a Double Standard, or is it that girls like vampires more than boys? I really wish to know this, because I do not find a she-vampire any more sexy than normal humans. Do girls think that merely being a vampire makes a man more sexy?
    • Oh I remembered the movie Innocent Blood. She was a sexy vampire girl and she bit men, and liked a detective.
      • Rosario Plus Vampire. Also, it IS odd considering, in the original Dracula, women being vamped (the Brides of Dracula and Lucy) end up becoming sexy to the point of extensive commenting on by the males, practically creating a Distracted By The Sexy without doing any titillating.
    • To add to that, it's always a human girl. Which is the same reason my teacher likes Interview With the Vampire.
      • That is interesting. Maybe men don't have a lot of the vampire fetish. Maybe this fetish is the equivalent of girl on girl action. I mean that is a common fantasy for men but I hardly know any woman that enjoys guy on guy action.
      • Ahem.
      • I didn't said that it didn't existed. I stated that is not that common. Look how many guy on guy actions are on porn directed at women for example.
      • Troper, meet the internet.
      • That's mainly because, from what I have read, most porn is directed at males anyway, and females are more attracted to faces and the romance aspect of things- resulting in most guy-on-guy, to attract to females, being either visual or textual romance- not porn as guys understand it.
    • Actually, the only sirings we see on screen on Buffy are females siring males.
    • WRONG. That ONLY applies to Angel and Spike, by Darla and Dru respectively. And Spike doesn't count, since keeping him around that long was never the plan and showing his detailed backstory (including getting sired) was mainly due to fan demand.
    • On the other hand, though, Buffy takes the "male vampire bites girl" thing to the extreme on multiple occasions, including:
      • Angel's Big Reveal. He almost takes Buffy's head off.
      • In flashbacks Angelus looooooooves biting women. On one occasion, Darla gives him a human girl as a "gift" and watches as he pulls up the girl's skirt, and drinks her blood by biting her THIGH.
      • Spike NEVER bites a man. He comes close when he almost bites Xander in his first appearance, but that's about it. On the other hand, it's open season on women. Most notably in season one of Angel, where a girl getting her blood drained by Spike is making sex noises.
      • Don't forget Angel drinking Buffy's blood all sexy-sexy in the season 3 finale.
      • DRU sires DARLA in Angel. Girl On Girl Is Hot, indeed.
    • Well, they are males; despite any little tidbits they may have dropped (and I mean Angel and Spike), they seem to be reasonably heterosexual. If they were really desperate, I guarantee they'd be biting guys. And how often do female vampires bite women? Seriously? I don't know of a lot of them, and that's including vampire fiction. If there's no attraction, why would anyone bite someone outside of "Hey, they look full of blood, and I'm not a picky eater"?
      • If a vampire considers humans to be nothing more than food (as many of the examples above do) then shouldn't "Full Of Blood" be exactly the only basis on which they pick who to bite? If the question of sex appeal is added to that, then it's kinda like you wanna have sex with your food. That would roughly compare to humans who fuck roasted turkeys. Squick, anyone?
    • I present to you the VG Cats female vampire fascination theory.
  • Angel, period, might have been the one who cemented this stereotype. This could actually be a trope on its own, seriously. Shall we count the number of Sexy Male Vampires in fiction?
    • David Boreanaz
    • James Masters
    • Tom Cruise
    • Brad Pitt
    • Robert Pattinson... any more?
    • Antonio Banderas played Armand.
    • Stuart Towsend (Lestat)
    • Alex O' Loughlin (Moonlight)
    • Henry Fitzroy (Blood ties)
    • Bella Lugosi? Christopher Lee?
  • Is it bad when the hatedom is getting even MORE annoying than the supposed Fan Dumb that I've never found?
    • Never found? Obviously, you haven't been looking very hard.◊
    • While you are at it, check the hatedom "matures, open minded, level headed" responses to the fandom. I think the asking for the fans to suicide are among the less offensive ways they can show us how "wrong" we are and how "right" they are.
  • Ooookay, so this might not come out right, but here goes: Edward can't read Bella's mind, therefore he is able to have a relationship with her. I get it. But two things bother me:
    • 1) Is the mind-reading a reflex or something he can exercise at will? That's never made clear, whether he is forced to hear other people's thoughts or whether he just nips in when he wants to. (The movie seemed to imply the latter in the scene where they have dinner; he's able to dip into other people's minds, then return to his conversation with Bella).
      • I think he can hear people's thoughts constantly like background noise, but he needs to focus and learn the voices to make sense of them. Also people can trick him, Alice could trick him by reciting a whole poem I think, and then translated him so you can supodsely get something in high volume and leave something low volume for him not to hear it.
    • 2) Regardless of whether he has to read other people's minds or can just pop in and out as he pleases, does being able to read other's thoughts justify scorning the entire female race (apart from Bella obviously)? I mean, I get it: It's hard to fall for someone when they're basically an open book, leaving nothing to your imagination, but are we supposed to believe that NONE of the thoughts he's read has ever struck him as anything other than shallow fluff? And if that's true, doesn't that say more about his taste in women than it does about than the women themselves?
    • He is actually very warm towards Angela's mind and still is not atracted to her,in that vein he also likes Alice's mind (he and Alice actually have a very funny inside each other's head relationship)still he never fell for Alice, when he rejected Tanya's advantages he didn't judged her, or judged Mrs. Cope when she was fantasizing about him. He has issues with the opposite gender, of course, due to his mind reading powers, but he also has a nice opinion of other non vampires he can read his minds like Ben and Seth. So its more about the fact that he has heard human minds for almost a century now and he said so he hard heard it all and then some, more like bored with people in general and women on particular, and it was not like he can actually fulfill any fantasy they might had, women would run from the hills in close proximity due to their insticts, or/and he might likely killed them if he lost control. So no point, really on entertaining romantic thoughs with any human women, it was easier to just dismiss them enterely, it took him a lot of strugle and DRAMA! for him to actually have a relationship with Bella, it was not "I can't hear her thoughs let's do it" kind of situation.
      • He's just a condescending ass, really. I mean, what deep thoughts does he ever have? At least the people he thought-drops on aren't fantasising about murdering their classmates like he is. Plus, as discussed elsewhere on this page, all Bella's thoughts are utterly shallow as well. He just thinks she's deep because he can't read her mind.
  • Bella is not a mother. She went through the pregnancy for nothing. Her hellspawn is smarter than everyone else and will age in real fast so that she can go off with Jacob all the faster. The fact that Bella doesn't even need to go through the normal hardships that involve looking after a kid pisses me off.
    • I never thought of that, but it makes everything worse. Bella and Edward won't have to do ANYTHING even remotely related to actually raising a kid. Changing diapers? Nessie's potty-trained in a week. Teaching her to read? She's already reading Tennyson. Kissing scraped knees? She can't be hurt. Dealing with tantrums from a child who doesn't know any better? She's a cool as a cucumber and as smart as any human adult. Nessie's so pointless except as a trophy for Bella, to show how awesome she is that she could have a child. Although it can hurt and be annoying, going through parenthood is often what brings the parents closer to the child. When your kid is every bit an adult as soon as she's born, what's the point? Nessie is obviously just the insane dream child of Meyer; all of the adorableness with none of the fuss, a doll to play with but not actually love.
      • It's actually kind of sad, in a way, that she doesn't ever have the chance to be a "normal" child- but wait, why would she want to be?
    • That was this troper's mother's very first comment upon being told of the accelerated pregnancy - the nine months of childbirth are crucial for the mother to bond with the baby, so it's very unbelievable that Bella and Renesme would be so freaking attached to each other.
      • I think adoptive parents and surrogates mothers would like to have a word about how bonding happens with your mother.
      • I think it's safe to say whatever bonding adoptive kids and parents go through won't apply to Nessie and her parents.
      • Bella's whole family is unrealistically perfect. She never has to bother taking care of Renesmee, she and Edward can be off having phenomenal vampire sex all day while Renesmee is with Jacob, Bella's now so powerful that Edward will never try to stop her doing anything again and even Rosalie likes her now. What makes family signicant is the hardships you go through together. If there aren't any hardships, then Bella's new "family" relationships are meaningless.
  • On the subject of names: As though her status of Mary Sue were not already established thoroughly, her name is Bella Swan. As in "Beautiful" Swan. As in the thing the "Ugly Duckling" becomes. As in Oh my God what the fuck?!
    • If it would make anyone feel better, Marie means "bitter". Or maybe that just emphasizes how much of an Anti Sue she is.
      • More accurately "sea of bitterness", making her even more of an empty shell.
      • ^ "Sea of bitterness" is exactly how I felt when I read this.
  • From Breaking Dawn: How does Renesmee have a Vampower? The books say that powers are based off of traits in their human life. Death Baby never had a human life.
    • The traits can be genetic. Bella inherited her shield from Charlie, that has a lesser form of mental block. Now don't ask me to explain how Nessie has the opposite of her parent's powers. Not inherited trait works backward that I remember.
    • It's Twilight? You honestly expected the author to follow the rules she herself established?
  • Edward's been around for a hundred years and Bella is the only girl who has ever been different? He claims that she surprises him with the crap she does and says every time, and he claims this like she's even got a personality to begin with. It's like everyone he had ever met within a hundred years is shallow, stereotypical and a perfect carbon copy of everyone else. Ugghh.
    • No: Bella's the only person he's met whose mind he can't read. The things she does surprise him because, with everyone else, he can see what they're planning to do before they do it.
      • Maybe he can read her mind. It's just so pathetically miniscule he thinks he can't. Let's face it, if most people's minds are trashy paperbacks she's a pamphlet.
    • I think we could make a case that Bella also being the only female human that doesn't run for the hills in close proximity with him like the other humans, due to her lack of self preservation and adaptability to the weird.
  • The fact that Edwards attraction to Bella is based on two stupid and inadequately explored things: 1) Her blood is like rich, heroin-injected milk chocolate to him and 2) he can't read her mind. First, why is her blood so damned tempting? What, all those years as a vampire and he's just now coming across someone who smells magically delicious??? Second, the whole thing with him not being able to read Bella's mind is never explained and it reeks of a cop-out: Oh, he can't read her thoughts like an open book, therefore she's automatically intriguing and worthy of his attention? It's like those two built-in reasons are there to disguise the fact that Bella is, in fact, just an empty-headed twat who can't go a whole paragraph without marveling at Edward's superhuman beauty!
    • Bella's a Mary Sue. That explains yummy blood and mind sheild
    • Spoony makes the joke that Edward really is reading her mind, there's just nothing there.
    • That's the fundamental problem with the series, pretty much: the fact that there is absolutely no reason for Edward and Bella to be in love. Bella has no lovable traits and neither does Edward. Neither of them ever display any charming idiosyncrasies, they have no shared interests apart from music, they never have any conversations about anything other than each other, they never make each other laugh and they're never relaxed in each other's company. There's absolutely no foundation for a relationship there.
    • Romantic characters, on the kind of fantasy we are referring here, rarely ever get explanation of what brings them together or if they do is really vague. That is part of the charm. To enhance the mystery of love and to allow the reader to pick their favorite lovable trait to justify their love for each other. I mean why Perseus loved Andromeda? To use a classic example.
      • Perseus and Andromeda is a legend though, not a four-novel series.
      • Still for a greek hero that managed to stay with a single women and not fathered any kids outside their marriage, they surely didn't told us what Andromeda had over other women (and goddesses) to achieve this feat. We still read it and like it.
      • YMMV. I hate romance stories that don't explain why the couple should be together. Fuck mystery; I want to know why in the hell Alice wants Bob.
      • It depends on the story for me. But I understand that placing the love on one or two characteristics might be problematic on the long run for the story and for the readers to buy it. For example say that Alice loved Bob because he has a nice voice some readers would find it silly, some others will start to wonder what will happen if he gets a sore throat and some others will decide that this is not strong enough to keep them together and so on. Is better to leave it at the reader imagination, IMO.
      • It's better to give some reasons for a couple to be together that the readers might doubt than to give no reason and make it look like the relationship is based entirely around lust. And anyway, if someone is a good writer, then they can easily minimize the number of readers wondering what the couple see in each other. Also, it's difficult for readers to guess at what traits Bella and Edward like in each other when neither of them have any traits of any kind other than being soft-spoken and emo.
      • This is an Older Than Dirt, Older Than Steam,Older Than Feudalism trope at work...and when did I said that SM is a good writer? I understand/get the context/themes/characters on the TL books and like them but they are horrible written, that one I can give.
      • Pushing Daisies is also a sort of fairy tale romance, and in that it's pretty easy to understand what the two leads see in each other. In Twilight not only is it hard to see what Bella and Edward like about each other, it's hard to see what anyone likes about either of them. They're boring as shit.
      • Funny you mentioned that. In the PD glory days of forums when my beloved series was still on air (and I am a rabid fan), the antis complained about the couple in very similar ways people complain about Beward. That Chuck was a Mary Sue, that Ned would be better off with Olive, that Ned stalked Chuck, that he watching her sleep was all sorts of wrong, that there were not foundantions for their relationship, that Chuck was an idiot for staying around a man that could kill her with a touch, that Ned was selfish and controlling, that it was not a healthy relationship, that he keeped her away from her aunts... I adored Ned/Chuck the same way I adore Beward. Of course this is a subjective matter like I learned on fanforums of various kinds.
      • One BIG difference - Ned has a direction in life. He has desires, ambitions, and emotions that DON'T involve Chuck, and Chuck herself, while she's in love with him, doesn't hang around The Pie Hole for the sole reason of admiring his body beauty and drooling over him in every single conversation she has. The sideplot around her aunts was given as much importance as her feelings for Ned, too. Whereas both Bella and Edward seem to have no personal life whatsoever. Her "Growing Up" experiences at school, along with her relationship with her Dad were given importance at the beginning, then completely cast aside after Edward came in. The entire series is one complete Wangst lecture about how they have to force themselves to be together because of all the reasons they CAN'T be together - NOT because they love each other.
      • I loved Ned/Chuck but the haters really didn't saw all that you said and accused them of everything they had accused Edward and Bella. The complains are still identical, specially the last one about being not real reasons for them to love each other. Again this ship business are very subjective IMO. I mean as much as this page is filled with people that don't buy their relationship the fandom does of that there is no doubt.
      • Pushing Daisies' Ned/Chuck and Twilight's Edward/Bella have a lot of the same issues and problems. The difference? Ned/Chuck's problems and issues (obsession, lack of a personal life, etc) are aknowledged in canon, and it is at one point a plot point for Ned to get over these issues if they can be together. S Meyer never aknowledges the problems Edward/Bella do or should have, instead insisting they are the perfect couple. Though YMMV, as that argument is entirely dependant on my interpretation of both works.
      • Well indeed is a matter of personal interpretation. I do know that Pushing Daisies issues were resolved better and the romantic dialogues were clever and witty and it was a perfectly written forensic fairytale series (can't wait for the comics). I think it also helped that we got real characters addressing the uncomfortable issues like Ned "stalking" Chuck to protect her and he explaining his reasons to our beloved Emerson Cod (this didn't convinced everyone, might I add) but it was a good way to cut the sugar and address the salt. Wich is something that might had benefited Twilight. Bella having a human down to earth best friend girl (Angela for example) to address all the problems (stalking, controlling and lack of social skills) of Bella's suitors, even if it was just to explain it would had make wonders for the acceptance of the series among the anti side of it, I think. I totally admit that she could had done a better job at explaining the journey of everyone. I also recomend reading her FAQ at twilight lexicon she actually makes sense of many of this problems without sounding like a rabid lunatic like sometimes is reported.
      • Also, regarding Ned and Chuck's lack of personal lives: it's true, but then, they were always like that. Ned has been socially isolated ever since he got sent off to boarding school, and Chuck's spent most of her life taking care of recluses. In fact, their being together has expanded both of their horizons, whereas Bella being with Edward just made her more and more cut off from the people who unaccountably care about her.
      • Had you read the books? Bella is not sociable, she didn't liked her personal life a lot. She whines at almost every person that come close to her, the only reason she connected with Jacob was because she needed a favor from him and Edward left. And Bella chose to devote herself to Edward, Edward actually spent almost half of the time reminding her that humanity and her soul are precious and she shouldn't waste that for him,in fact when they were negotiating she staying human a big longer after they got married the first thing Edward did was start to plan spent Christmas with her mother and vacations with her father and he also mentions how much easier her life would be if she were not in love with him. The conflict of the changing lives was pretty much Edward's Bella was like: change me now! change me now!....Bella really didn't had a lot going on her human life before Edward, she was pretty laid back about everything doing whatever her mood told her to do, whether reading, cooking... Edward didn't really took away much and Edward well he was sexually repressed, moody and deeply depressed before Bella so I think they both gained a lot out of the relationship, YMMV. In the same vein I think Ned/Chuck won a lot of the relationship in spite of the risks, for both and again YMMV.
      • Yeah, but Bella is just as anti-social and directionless at the end as at the beginning, if not more. In Pushing Daisies, Chuck encouraged Ned to come further out of his shell, whereas Edward actively strove to isolate Bella.
      • Well Bella at least can relate to her vampire family now, and her daughter which is more than she could relate to her normal family and I'm I think I mentioned that the only reason Bella was not changed from day one is because Edward didn't want to stole her soul, so it was Bella actively striving to isolate herself, not him, Edward fought for her to keep her human bonds as much as possible.
      • About Ned/Chuck...you know a lot of people hated her exactly because she pushed Ned out of his shell too much? like she was too self absorbed to respect Ned boundaries and hated how easily he forgave her for every time she did that. Again I see your point and I do think Chuck was helping Ned to gain the things he missed do to his father abandoning him as a kid, but again like Edward some people won't cut some slack to poor Chuck. For example why do you keep blaming him? Bella fought with nails and teeth to become a vampire, make his family vote, whine, pushed and pretty much did everything within her power to further her agenda, Edward keep warning her about all she might lose and miss but she made a choice (a choice I support BTW), Her choice and he gave in at the end, I fail to see what do you want him to do? Leaving her was out of the question since when he tried didn't make her any more social, happier or safer, and his father accepted to change her whether he liked it or not. I mean Edward screws up a lot but isolating her from her family was never his idea was hers, always her idea.
  • Let's also make a comparison to the romances in Buffy, for no other reason than that we can. Yes, Buffy is the complete opposite of Bella, so you can't really compare the females (which itself is a slap in the face of Twilight, because Buffy never, ever played the teary-eyed Damsel in Distress, even when her powers were taken away from her.) But both Angel and Edward share many qualities - the brooding, the obsession with their respective girlfriends, the dark past. Yet Angel was accepted by the audience, in spite of the fact that the show was highly anti-vampirical in nature, and not to mention he almost killed Buffy during his reveal as a vamp. But Angelus went on to star in his own show, which at times rivalled even Buffy's popularity. Let's not forget Spike, who was so much loved by fans in his appearance as a despicable, Monstrous Villain that the writers of the show were forced to upgrade him to a courageous Hero seeking Redemption. So why the Edward hate? The way I see it:
    • Both Angel and Spike had purposes in life. Angel, cursed with his soul, bore the weight of all the evil he had done as Angelus, and wanted to redeem himself. Spike had an even more uphill battle, as he first fought to kill Buffy, then fought to get his chip removed, then fought for his soul, then fought to save Buffy. Both vampires had highly detailed backstories with a large number of influential supporting characters, and showed significant character development.
    • Edward, on the other hand, is a hundred years old, and apparently he has spent this entire time going to high school. He has no purpose in life, no direction, and his backstory is bland, uninteresting and does not intersect with history. (Angel fought in WWII, he was responsible for the creation of multiple vampires who became the first serial killers of the world, and Spike was in China during the Boxer Rebellion, killing a Slayer.)
    • There are other women in both Angel and Spike's lives. Dru, Harm, Darla, Cordy, all of them have specific impacts on the vampires' lives and help character development. Edward, apparently, will only love a girl if he wants to drink her blood like it is chocolate-heroin.
    • First that is a mistake "la tua cantanta" is the roadblock not the hook. For example Emmet's two "blood singers" ended up dead on a dark alley, so unless you claim that Emmet is gay or bi, its obvious that is not about her blood. And second this is a love story with other things added. Buffyverse is an adventure/supernatural drama with some romantic relationships depicted on it. The story IMO it was about Buffy as a slayer or Angel as a vampire figthing the good fight not about romance, diferent genre, IMO.
    • Buffy actually fell in love with the two vampires. The process is clearly shown, and we can see it coming. Bella, on the other hand, loves Edward for no other reason than that he's a vampire and he wants her choco-heroin blood.
    • And finally, who the fuck calls himself Edward? Seriously. Ed is a name. Insisting on introducing yourself as Edward and making people call you that makes you sound like a complete fucking asshole, which Edward actually is.
      • I'd say going around calling yourself Angel is much more of a doucebag move.
    • Oh no if is shorter for Angelus, is not. But again people would probably laugh at anyone introducing himself as Angelus.
      • "Angel" is a fairly popular name for men, especially in Spanish-speaking families. It was the 31st most popular name for boys in 2006.
      • How about all the guys named Jesus? That should be the top of pretentious names, but Latin parents just want to honor The Lord.
      • The name EDWARD doesn't honor anybody. Also, you'd be hard-pressed to find somebody named EDWARD who insists on being called by his full name and not just plain ol' Ed. Even if you do, chances are he's a douchebag. Okay, someone from British upper class might be an exception, since they're expected to maintain things like that for status, but that's it.
      • His biological father's name was Edward Mansen. Its probably to honor him and since his father was born a century ago, they probably used their full names most of the time. Its not like he is averse to nicknames since has no issues with shortened names for his siblings or Bella. Its a matter of personal preference, IMO. If douche bags were that easy to spot we all would had a lot less problems with them.
      • That last part I agree with; and I'm just gonna agree to disagree on the rest, especially since it's just a minor complaint compared to the number of actual problems the series has.
      • Angel Batista supports this point.
    • I know a lot of real life people that use their first name complete, I don't think is any sign of their character.
  • Some twilight fan/fans have been through this page, and tried comparing Twilight to Harry Potter, tenuously at best, as if it makes the god-awful writing and other examples of the problems with this book listed below any better.
    • However, I do congratulate them - any twilight fan making it through this page without a ragequit, let alone post a coherent thought, is either a masochist or made of stern stuff indeed.
    • I think it also could be because a lot of the Twilight fans are also Harry Potter fans, so we are bound to find similarities.
  • In the climax of the first book, Bella gets bitten and needs someone to suck out the venom. Ok, fair enough. But why, dramatic tension aside, does it have to be Edward who does it? Why can't Carlisle? Carlisle's the one with the medical training, Carlisle's the one with the superhuman self-control. Most importantly, Carlisle's done this sort of thing before! Why does he risk Bella's life by making Edward do it?!
    • If this troper remembers right, Carlisle was busy tending to Bella's leg, which had broken during the fight and was evidently an immediate danger to her life. Or something.
    • Edward is supposed to have completed Med school multiple times.
      • Well, if the bone broke near a major artery, then that is a legitimate concern. But I haven't read the books so I wouldn't know.
      • Edward believes in Intimate Healing. Carlisle does not.
  • How come every anti-fan I know believes those ridiculous reports of Twilight fan violence from that anti-Twilight forum? Throwing acid in someone's unprotected face in a high school lab? Male gangsters admitting to liking the books, let alone assaulting girls for it? The poor victim and their awesome witty comebacks that leave everyone in awe? And no proof or articles or police reports on any of these stories? The media has no loyalty to Twilight, if any of these were true the news would have a field day. Come on, guys you should know better...
    • How come every fan I know believes the ridiculous reports of anti-fan violence? Let's be honest; probably none of the "attacks" from either side ever happened, and it's not just antis being silly.
      • See the Twihards making up stories is something I'd expect, but the antis are supposed to be the smart, sane ones who hold themselves to a higher standard. It weakens their argument when they use fake evidence because then the argument gets derailed into "You lied about getting acid thrown in your face, therefore everything you say is false." This also goes for every time an unreliable source has a rumor about somebody suing Meyer and all the antis shout "HAHAHA I TOLD YOU SO!" and start pasting it all over the wiki until five minutes later when the story turns out to false or the case is so flimsy it gets thrown out right away. That's happened at least three times so far.
      • And then there's the antis who only pay attention to the news articles such as the 3,000 Twilight mob in San Fransisco where a fan broke her nose and the police got involved to cancel the event, the various complaints from Robert Pattinson of fans harassing him (as can be seen in clips of him trying to get away on Youtube), and of course the personal attacks that some antis just don't want to share because they try to forget the stupidity of some people.
    • Actually, the acid story [and I think the gangster one too] was widely declared to be a pile of bullshit, and the anti-Twilight website listing these attacks [or other, less violent incidents] even has a subforum to put all the stories that seem to be a bunch of lies. So Yeah. It really is perfectly likely that a fair amount of the less outrageous stories are true - the Twilight fanbase does have an unusually high amount of crazy, and it's not like people [especially children or tweens] never get irrationally angry over something as minor as differing opinions on a book. Actually, if I recall, there was a teenager who killed his mother over differing opinions on either a movie or anime series - I'll update if I remember which one.
  • I have two three main gripes. (*deep breath*) Here goes:
    • What this series is doing to unpublished authors. Seriously, there are writers who are scared to submit anything with depth for publication because they think no one will give it a second glance before tossing it onto the rejection pile in favor of craptacular fluff like Twilight. That's not right!
    • That is a petty excuse. There is space for crappy literature and good one. The unpublished author that doesn´t post his/her work is because he/she has not faith on his/her craft and that is not fault of Dan Brown, Stephenie Meyer or any other best seller.
    • Even random internet stuff like this is better, despite the fact that the two main characters both fall somewhere on the sliding scale between Little Miss Badass and Badass Adorable
    • Smeyer's rank attitude regarding other authors and their work. I can't provide direct linkage to the interview itself, but Melina Pendulum on You Tube read some of Meyer's own comments from said interview and it basically boiled down to her saying that she feels her work is on par with (or better than!) that of Jane Austen's, she has no idea the Princess Bride was supposed to be a satire (and therefore had no problem saying that her romance was a far superior one) and a bunch of other crap I can't even get into here without seeing red. Don't believe me? See for yourself.
      • This troper read a LJ page which quoted her on those. At one point, she goes on about what to do if "true love" left you.
    The answer is different for everyone. Juliet had her version, Marianne Dashwood had hers, Isolde and Catherine Earnshaw and Scarlett O’Hara and Anne Shirley all had their ways of coping. I had to answer the question for Bella. Not just true love, but Edward Cullen! None of those other heroines lost an Edward (Romeo was a hothead, Willoughby was a scoundrel, Tristan had loyalty issues, Heathcliff was pure evil, Rhett had a mean streak and cheated with hookers, and sweet Gilbert was much more of a Jacob than an Edward).
Notice that she misses the point on Marianne (who realized by the end that she actually loved Colonel Brandon). She also pretty much admits that she almost created a pairing which would compare to a sweet and loving literary couple, but skipped it.
  • Oh think Marianne pretty much gives up on life like Bella did, she just recovered after touched bottom. And even though I adore Colonel Brandon there are still people that ship her with Willoughby...getting a poor girl pregnant and abandoning her don't get in the way of true love, apparently. I think that Bella could be compared mostly to some Greek heroines that usually lose it/kill themselves after losing their true love.
    • Which is hilarious because the reason fairy tale girls killed themselves when they lost their loves or chances to marry was partly because a woman with no husband was about as good as dead. Hardly applicable to this day and age. This troper also finds Meyer's statement that Tristan had "loyalty issues" hilarious because the Isolde that he fell in love with? She was married! Did Meyer honestly think he should have had an affair with her, especially since adultery at the time was a crime punishable by being burned at the stake?
    • Well in Marianne's case she had an obvious choice on Brandon and a loving family, that didn't helped her. A lot of classic heroines were rich and actually staying with their loved ones mean that they would had to give up fame and money in many occasions, they still killed themselves over love. The Tristan had loyalty issues is more about that they were not dealing with just them against the world but their loyalty to a man, that both of them respected and knew it was wrong so love was mixed with duty wich complicated matters. I'm sure she being a married mormom she wouldn't suggest that cheating was okay, regarding if there was punishment or not.
    • She also considers her books superior to Harry Potter, which is hilarious since the first HP book made more money in less time than Twilight, as did it's first movie. We won't get into how much better HP is, writing-wise. Then, of course, The Tales of Beedle the Bard (a supplementary, semi-related book) beat out Breaking Dawn (the climax of the series) on Amazon with no fanfare or previous advertisment. Compare this to how much we had to swallow in ads for Breaking Dawn.
    • This troper is annoyed that everyone assumes these sources to be true just because they read them off some livejournal. I want video or I want it on her website. Otherwise it's anyone's guess.
    • As a fan I had yet to see any interview with Smeyer comparing her work to HP, the comparisons she has done had been with romantic classic books, since Twilight is a romance with some adventure in it, and HP is an adventure with some romance on it and I'm pretty sure she is very aware of that. I think this is confusion since some fans had expressed this idea on various websites and the Hatedom that likes to carefully check his facts about the books before spreading it on their favorite media probably missed this distinction and honestly though it was the author's opinion.
    • So far as this troper knows, Meyer never said she was better than Rowling. What she did say was this:
Meyer: J.K. Rowling’s audience is everybody, so that means we all have a piece of her audience. It’s terribly flattering to be compared to her, but there’s never going to be another J.K. Rowling; that’s a phenomenon that’s not gonna happen again.
On a Muggle Cast Recording, she also said that she felt that Edward would beat Harry in a fight. That's it, to the extent of this troper's knowledge. The quote which mentions Tristan and Marianne and Rhett can be found in here.
  • The fact that Smeyer contradicts her own shit on a daily basis (Edward can't read Bella's mind, yet he later on sends her telepathic messages to keep her out of danger), seems to think research and basic US history is beneath her (two words: Great Depression) and the fans keep buying it!
    • While I'm not trying to defend S Meyer, and actually agree with pretty much all you mentioned, I do remember reading that the "telepathic messages" aren't messages at all, but it's just Bella's mind/survival instinct pretty much making her have hallucinations; it's all in her mind. Which, in my opinion, makes it worse. I might be wrong, though, given it has been quite a time since I read it...
    • Yes, I believe the voice Bella heard whenever she intentionally put herself in mortal danger during New Moon was in fact a product of her own imagination/diseased psyche. It's never really clarified whether she's fully aware that these 'messages' are springing wholly from her unconscious mind. I can only assume that she was simply imagining what Edward might say if he could somehow see her, and that Stephanie Meyer, in a misguided attempt to create some kind of dramatic effect, accidentally made it sound far too literal. Surely if Bella had literally been hearing voices she would have sought some kind of professional help?! One would hope. Still, that nasty bout of mental instability cleared up pretty soon after Sir Sparklecakes arrived back on the scene, so no harm done. Sigh.
    • I always read that as a secondary effect of the vampire link being severed so harshly. Most traditional vampires has this mental influence on their victims, but one just long enough to feed on them, since Edward didn't killed Bella and bonded back with her, the link was already too strong for neither of them function normally without the other. While I do beleive this two genuine love each other I also think there was some dazzling thing playing its part on getting then togheter. This is a supernatural romance after all.
    • Traditional vampire? Hardly. While some European types might, most vampires or vampire like creatures in mythology/folklore have few if any mental influence on their victims beyond maybe paralyzing them with fear or some such. And even in such cases, more often then not it was a matter of meeting and holding their gaze.
    • Dracula (Bram Stoker one) had a mental link with Mina, that lasted long after they stopped seeing each other.
    • But Dracula and Mina's particular connection was more due to the fact that he had fed upon her repeatedly, and forced her to drink his blood in return. Plus, the Count is a rather different type of creature to Edward. Unless I interpreted the text very wrongly, it isn't really suggested in Twilight that Edward exerts that kind of mental influence over others (beyond his ability to "dazzle" them with his super-sparkles) or could possibly forge the sort of subliminal bond with someone that would continue in his absence. As for it being a "secondary effect" of their emotional bond...while that's a little bit tenuous, that's what I initially assumed was going on (until Edward seemed to refute the idea once they were reunited) and I could have accepted the theory if it had been explained as such, rather than portrayed in a manner that bore such a striking resemblance to the onset of severe mental illness on Bella's part.
    • Well I could totally being wrong about this interpretation, is just the way me and some people I know read it, even if Bella is an idiot she was never shown with more symptoms of mental illness, and aside from Edward's bond there was little else there to explain this and many things, including her prophetic dreams, or the fact that is too much of a coincidence that she insisted till win to have sex with Edward before turning, it was like deep down she knew she could conceive and how she instantly knew the baby was going to be good and not the antichrist,YMMV.
    • The only answer I can think of is There Are No Therapists.
  • Edward drives. While sparkling.
    • Edward Sparkles. Period.
  • Bella gets a little papercut and everyone's all over her. What about her periods? What about everyone's periods at school? Or is menstrual blood not that attractive to perfectly perfect vampires?
    • Actually, yes. It's, ahem, dead blood.
    • That wonderful 'dead blood' explanation aside...what would happen if, say, someone accidentally grazed their knee and drew blood during gym class? Or nicked their finger with a scalpel during a biology exercise? Or picked a freaking scab on their arm out of boredom? Or got a nosebleed? Little injuries happen all the time. And yet the Cullens react to Bella's papercut as if it's the dawning of the Apocalypse. As if they haven't had to deal with similar situations on a daily basis for however many decades they've been pointlessly repeating high-school.
      • Oh but you forgot that Mary Sue's blood is more delicious than one of any other puny human.
    • Haha... remember the chapter where they do blood-typing?
    • Erm, doesn't Edward skip that class specifically to avoid the blood? And I don't remember a time when the Cullens went to a gym class. Loathe as I am supposed to be to defend twilight it does suggest that they do "try" to avoid situations where it is likely to occur. Not that it erases the question but there is some evidence that they try.
    • It's true, they did avoid the blood-typing class, I remember them mentioning that. I don't remember them ever going to gym class but neither do I remember them saying they specifically avoided it (I could be wrong) but the fact still stands that if they place themselves in a school environment — any busy public environment, really — they will be tempted by blood on a daily basis, aside from the general temptation of being near to humans at all. Even if they avoid high-risk situations, small injuries really would be happening around them all the time, and they'd be super-sensitive to them. If someone nicked their finger in a nearby room, they'd probably be able to smell it. I can deal with this idea in itself - it shows that they're able to withstand such things. It shows they can resist human blood, which is utterly necessary to make it feasible for them to be mixing with humans at all. But as a previous troper mentioned, the thing that's weird and jarring about it is their violent reaction to Bella's paper cut. Their response isn't really consistent with their previous behavior at all, and the whole situation was blatantly engineered to try and create some "drama" (and force the "plot" to limp along its dull course). That's the real problem underlying it, from my point of view - the inconsistency, rather than the general silliness of it all (which is not to be discounted but basically goes without saying).
      • In the books the characters stated that a) they need to be around humans in regular basis because getting used to their smell help them to resist the urge to kill, plus it helps them to see them on regular situation so not to think of them as just prey. b) Jasper was the newest one and the one that had more problems with his control so he needed constant supervision, c) Bella's blood smell specially nice, Edward is the one her blood sings to the strongest but the other vampires do think she smells mouth watering too d) They can avoid being to tempted by not breathing till they can leave the room like Edward did when he meet Bella. Now all that lead to Jasper reacting that bad to the paper cut, since he was surprised by the sudden shock of that sweet smell on a environment where there was only one human so he was probably more relaxed and he usually kept his distance from Bella before, no to mention violent is the one that had killed the most people of the bunch being part of the army during the American Civil War. But it was only Jasper the other Cullens did got thirsty but never attacked Bella. About the school environment they did avoided situations when blood could be spilled but they usually were never alone to make sure that if needed one can snap the other out of the thirst and remind them not to breathe or being removed. Edward and Alice (with her powers) were pretty much constantly making sure everything was on order and they could quickly help with any emergency, like when he saved Bella.
    • That's a point - how come Alice didn't see it coming? Yes, Jasper was the only one who attacked her, but they all responded very dramatically. It just seemed like a total overreaction, given what they face on a daily basis, but maybe that was just the way it was written. And one more thing...I could be wrong here, but wasn't Bella's blood only particularly attractive to Edward? Isn't that the whole point? I thought the comments about Bella having objectively yummy blood were a joke about her Sue-ishness?
    • Alice predicts the possible outcome of choices, she is not 100% accurate. Since the paper cut was an accident she didn't see it coming. Also Bella didn't died of it so the outcome of the party probably looked like Bella was coming back home with Edward thus the accident was not part of it. She also needs to concentrate on a person or situation or being something familiar. She never saw Nessie coming because she never dealt with half-vampires before, also the pack of wolves was immune to her visions.
    • Bella's blood sings to Edward only but she still delicious smelling to other vampires. For Edward she is his brand of heroine and for others she might be chocolate cake.
  • The fact that I wasn't allowed to make up my own damn mind about the series! I didn't read it when it first came out (that's pretty much the case with everything I read; I get around to it when the hype calms down), but rabid fans and rabid antis made it so that I could never read it, what with both sides spoiling huge chunks of plot in attempts to either get me on board or steer me away from Twilight. Regardless, I read it, just to get both sides off my ass and didn't like it anyway, so it's whatever.
  • Charlie's response to Jacob's sexual assault of Bella. It just seemed so out of character - he's A: a policeman,and B: a really overprotective dad. So when his daughter comes home and tells him that a guy kissed her when she definitely didn't want him to, his response is just so very, very disturbing.
    • He still sees Jacob as the nice kid he was before the whole love triangle nonsense. I guess he assumed it was a quick innocent kiss and then he backed off and Bella was "overreacting" or "playing hard to get"? (I would have still wrung the kid's neck) Or maybe he's genre savvy, and realizes it was just a ploy for the author to make Edward look better by giving him a more appropriate proper reaction. (And this was one case where Edward was right. He stressed that his anger was about Bella's consent, not about jealousy or protecting his property.)
      • But Bella came in and put ice on her hand and told him that she was hurt because she hit Jacob for the kiss. That would seem to imply that innocent or not, Bella certainly felt strong enough about it to hurt her hand trying to get payback for it.
  • It also bugs me the wide amount of Sephenie Meyers in this article. It is Stephenie Meyer people.
    • Five seconds in Word and that's fixed.
  • He smiled his crooked smile.
    • Sues have to have at least one seeming imperfection.
    • I thought it meant a smile like, for example, when you're trying to look firm but end up smiling anyway? And it's not a real imperfection. Bella loves it.
      • That's why it seems like an imperfection, but it's not.
  • Is anyone else freaked out that any girl who is 25 or under has about a 90% of having a vampire fetish?
    • That's not a morbid as it sounds. Vampires can symbolize the subversive quality of female sexuality. In America, the Nice Girls Don't ethos is still very much in control. A vampire is the farthest thing from a Nice Girl imaginable. So it's not uncommon for young women who are discovering their sexuality to imagine leaving the daytime world of Nice Girls behind forever and becoming a powerful, protean creature of the night. When I was between 18 and 20, I was wild about vampires. But I felt—and still do—that vampires who can't turn into bats are just lame.
    • On the other hand, maybe the real attraction of the fetish is the idea of a boyfriend who doesn't fart, sweat, or go the the bathroom.
    • Heh never had that stage of my life, I always had my nerd fetish but I also thin that the fetish is fueled by the impossibly beautiful/sexy actors that portray them I mean even Bela Lugosi had a lot of women drooling over him after Dracula. If there were average looking vampires the fetish might had been totally different.
    • I have a theory. I think that a lot of young girls don't really like young guys because they seem too immature and silly. Vampires are much older guys, without any of the drawbacks that real older guys have (like receding hairlines). Older, more "mature" character with the body of a young one. Some women still desire a "big strong man" but feel they should be the equal of any man. A Vampire is blatantly super-human, so the psuedo-feminmist feels it is OK to be swept off your feet by one. And maybe you get that cool 19th century style women seem to dig.
  • I really can't be the only Washingtonian troper here. Why does the whole "rainiest city in the US here" thing give her an excuse to defile the state, when she doesn't even know anything about it? She never even set foot in it until around 2006.
    • You're not, and I have a whole laundry list of things she did to the Olympic Peninsula in particular that drive me mad. In short, the wildlife (dear God, the wildlife), the butchering of the Quileute mythology and tribe in general, and the idea that OVERCAST somehow equals PERPETUAL TWILIGHT. WTF. I realize that to people living in Arizona, Washington might as well be Alaska, and that she might not have been able to afford a trip up here, but jeez, do a little research so you don't so obviously fail geography forever. Oh, and saying Seattle was within such a relatively short driving distance of the Peninsula, and...yeah. So. Much. Irritation.
  • In Eclipse, Edward is signing Bella up for colleges and whatnot, moving to different places... the works. Alaska is discussed because Bella got accepted to a university there. He mentions being able to eat the following with the Sparkletons: grizzly bears, polar bears, and wolves. Immediately Bella takes offense... for the wolves, thinking it was a jab against Jacob. Never mind the polar bears. UM, HELLO? POLAR BEARS ARE ENDANGERED SPECIES? WTF IS THIS I DON'T EVEN--
    • Polar bears are not endangered, they are classified as vulnerable. Also, polar bears are still being hunted by the Inuit of Northern Canada and Alaska and by regulated hunters (to the tune of about 500 a year in Canada). Considering how highly the Cullens value law and order, they probably signs on to hunting licenses (And its not as if the Cullens will be snacking their way through a thousand bears). Complaining does not precludes you from doing research too, you know.
    • 'Kay, how about Emmett's habit of munchin' grizzlies, which ARE endangered?
      • Considering he was all but mauled to death by bears, I don't think he cares.
      • People who kill for revenge are still arrested and thrown in prison. If he were a real person, Emmett should be heavily fined for the dent he must have put into conservation efforts with all his hunting. But I'm going to guess that Meyer had no idea that grizzlies are endangered. I bet she wouldn't have her vampires eating pandas or whales.
      • Is it me or is incredibly funny that we are now blaming Meyer for endangering fictional species? Or are we implying that the Twilighters that like Emmett are going to start to hunt grizzly bears on his behalf?
      • Here's what bugs me. Bears are tough and all, but what is wrong with your standard issue deer? You want a challenge, go head on! There are pointy things there! They'll kill you! It's the whole point of having them! What about a moose? I'd rather run into a bear than one of them. Both would kill me, but the moose would be a bit more thorough about it and wouldn't require any motivation (it's just what they *do*). Are the sparkly ones any less invulnerable to bears and wolves than they are to everything else? Why would you go after wolves? Unless you feel the need to destroy them in large numbers, wolves are not particularly tough opponents by themselves (which is why they hunt in packs to begin with).
  • All of this is missing the point: THERE ARE NO GRIZZLY BEARS ON THE OLYMPIC PENINSULA. Black bears, yeah, plenty of those, and there are actually cougars in more places than you'd think, but the only place you will (maybe) find grizzlies is in the Cascades, way up north by Canada. And don't even get me started on wolves...any of the werewolves/shapeshifters/whatever you want to call them would probably be shot on sight if they were spotted, since there haven't been wolves in Washington in well over a century. They'd stick out like a sore thumb.
  • I've discovered that going up to a Twihard and saying "Your book sucks and you're an idiot!" will probably just make them defensive and possibly throw acid in your face. In my experience, it's easier to reach them through humor that points out the flaws of the work in a non-mean spirited way. You may not get them to say Twilight is horrible, but if you can get them to laugh with you, you can get them to admit "Lol, Edward is kind of creepy sometimes" etc. My friend was once a true Twilight fan who converted to lolfan after being exposed to Growing Up Cullen and Cleolinda's recaps/Secret Life of Dolls. I have another friend who is anti-Twilight, and hatred for the books has consumed his entire life. Every facebook post is about how much he hates them, but none of it's humorous and his rage is so great that he's incapable of enjoying even the most brutal Twilight satire. He talks about Twilight more than anyone I know, including thirteen year olds and fangirls! It may be righteous anger, but is it healthy?
    • I was never so happy until after I converted my sister by pointing out the lulz.
    • Seems like this is true for anything that has a following (fiction, government, religion, what have you). Shame more people can't agree.
  • In a scene in New Moon where Charlie cracks a joke about Bella spending time with Jacob and what her friends would think about it, Bella thinks something along the lines of, "As if I care about what my friends thought." This troper didn't even know what to do about it, so she posted it on TV Tropes instead.
    • Bella.... has some Libby-ish comments about the people around her- that this, the ones she's not fawning over. She refers to Mike as like a Golden Retriever and pretty much dismisses anyone she doesn't see as physically attractive.
      • Her first thoughts of Eric mention his greasy hair and acne problem, while he's trying to be friendly.
      • This troper is more concerned she doesn't care what her friends, who sincerely want the best for her, think about her poor choices. You don't have to listen to people who are prejudiced, but if they had had a valid reason for concern, would Bella have still reacted the same? I'd bet my non-existent left nut she would.
  • Come on haters, why can't you just let the people enjoy whatever stupid shit they want? Is, say, owning a 100+ Star Wars-books any less stupid?
    • They're equally stupid, so shut up.
      • Correction: they're almost as stupid. At least Jedi don't sparkle.
      • Instead, tiny little microbes in their bloodstream let them throw around things with their mind and predict the future.
      • New Wild Mass Guess: The midiclorians are the vampire venom! That would explain the mind reading,psychic powers and the other qualities, plus the unbreakable bond the mates have. The sparkling is just the tiny microbes reacting to the sun energy. No to mention that the fight to resist to drink human blood is more about choosing the light side of the force: the Cullens and the Denali instead of the dark side: Nomad vampires and the Volturi.
      • Oi, play nice!
      • The real stupidity is thinking there are 100 star wars books when they're only up to the forties! If only we could be so lucky to have 100!
      • ahum
    • You know, I think Buffy is stupid, and her fanboys are morons. Still, I respect other people's freedom to like it. Why can't it be the same with this?
      • I think it's because of the fan base. Buffy is ubiquitous on this wiki, sure, but you're unlikely to hear about it much elsewhere. Twilight, on the other hand, is freaking everywhere, and the fans won't shut up about it. It's also because Twilight seems to be emblematic of a lot of the problems with modern society: sexism, obsession with appearance over personality, etc.
      • Saying both "Buffy fan boys are morons, but I respect people's freedom to like Buffy," is somewhat of a paradoxical statement, dude.
      • I didn't say "Buffy fan boys are morons" I said " I think Buffy fan boys are morons". Respecting them doesn't change my opinion of them, just like you guys can be friends with people who like Twilight and still have a negative opinion of the series.
      • Still makes no sense. If you think the fan boys are morons, that's a negative opinion of the people not the series, and unless you're in the practice of respecting morons I call shenanigans on your respect
      • Um, yeah, I don't think my Twilight fan friends are morons. I think they're both pretty smart, actually. They have a different opinion of the book than I do, it doesn't mean I reckon they're dumb.
      • Actually all the people who I know who've read Twilight were/are honors students with close to 4.0 GP As. I call them unrealistic rather than stupid because it's easier to swallow.
      • I'd say Twilight is popular BECAUSE it's rather dumb and frivolous at heart. Both people of average intelligence and smart people like it because it's something you can mentally shut down for, because it's pure kitsch. It's the same reason for why stuff like Disney or One Piece are so wildly popular in their native countries, even if the demagraphics are different. People consume that kind of fiction because everyone knows they'll deliver what they promise: happy endings and brainless fun along the way. It sounds kina cynical, but it's true. The average consumer doesn't pay for serious art; the average consumer pays for what they know will turn out for the best and make them feel happy before it's time to return to the hard realities of work, bad friends, and paying bills.
      • Please refrain from comparing Twilight to One Piece. For one thing, Oda actually pays attention to continuity.
    • I don't read Star Wars books, but if they're any good, then yes, owning them is less stupid.
      • They're not that great and it's not like they'll ever win an award, but they have a solid and coherent plot (usually) and the writers are at least decent.
    • Being obsessed with any fandom to the point of insanity is stupid but that doesn't mean I can't be just as obsessive as an anti-fan.
    • If you actually want an explanation, a great deal of the hate stems from how the series glorifies a relationship that's unhealthy on all kinds of levels, yet it's so intensely popular that its fans (or a scary portion of them, at least) fall in line and cite it as a vision of perfection. The Star Wars novels may be varying levels of kitsch — I've only read a few so far, so I can't say — but they don't provide a parade of warped morals that its fans take to heart.
    • That's one of the two things that confuse me—what Aesop? Stalking Is Love? All Girls Want Bad Boys? Those aren't Meyer's messages, they're Bella's , and if Jacob's comments are any indication, Bella's supposed to be a Martyr Without A Cause. The other thing that confuses me: the Star Wars novels do provide a parade of Warped Aesops, and a few authors, such as David Brin, have argued that the Star Wars movies themselves are built upon Warped Aesops. For that matter, Chronicles Of Blood And Stone is worse than both, both literarily and in its messages, as completely and unambiguously as such a statement can be given that such judgments can't be objective. Yet Twilight and Sword Of Truth get more hate per mention than the aforementioned chronicles or the most obviously foul of the tie-in novels, even factoring out the illusions that may come from the fact that Twilight and Sword Of Truth are mentioned more often. Why must they have a monopoly on So Bad Its Horrible, particularly when each has significant good traits?
      • In response to your first point: Bella is a pretty clear self-insert of Smeyer. I don't read Star Wars books myself so can't comment on the rest, but as someone mentioned above Twiligt is everywhere, and frequently held up to be a "How To" guide on romance by silly bints who obviously don't know better. Star Wars, outside the nerdosphere, isn't really brought up and when it is, it isn't treated seriously by most.
      • Also important to note is the difference between an Aesop and a broken one. Both generally have the same premise and story. However, the former will not merely romanticize the premise but also present consequences both good and bad, big and small, about it. A broken one will simply present all the positive, downplay any negatives brought up, and ignore everything else. Whether or not Bella and Edward's relationship is healthy or not is irrelevant to the fact that the story doesn't address at all that it may be unhealthy, unrealistic, and have consequences other than Happily Ever After. And even outside the romance, some of the basic issues with the personalities.
  • Why'd Meyer take out the scene that was supposed to demonstrate Bella's clumsiness? Was she trying to create a Mary Sue?(link)
    • *smirks* Um... "birdie"?
    • There's another very similar gym class scene in the book describing Bella's ineptitude at volleyball instead of badminton. That scene does the trick just as well.
  • This troper summarized Twilight to her Dad, including how Edward destroys Bella's car so she can't visit her friends, sneaks into her room to watch her sleep before she even knew she liked him, constantly calls her stupid, wants to drink her blood, etc. She also mentioned how Bella considers Edward's behavior "perfect", and how hordes of fangirls seem to agree. Dad's reaction: "So women really do like to be abused by men, after all." That's EXACTLY what he said, it wasn't a joke, and I didn't paraphrase. This troper liked neither Twilight nor her Dad before this conversation, but is it any wonder now that Twilight has so many haters and critics? It's one thing to have a book be read as a guilty pleasure, because this troper doesn't approve of censorship and there have been books (and porn) with worse, but now you have critics in top magazines calling Twilight a "literary masterpiece", and Twilight definitely doesn't deserve that status. Is there any wonder that so many of us sensible readers are agitated?
    • Sadly your dad is right. There are some women who think abuse is fun and it's really troubling. One of my friends actually stayed with a boyfriend she hated for an additional three months because he got a sexual thrill whenever they hit each other.
      • Some men too, but that's not a point. My dad talked as if all women are codependent. Plus, there's a difference between sexual fetishes and complete and absolute emotional dependence. Bella forgives everything Edward does because she feels she'll die without him, but their romance is still treated as "healthy" and "perfect". Where's the literary masterpiece in that?
      • I think your dad might stop trying to make assumptions about women over what they like when they read or should people start to make assumptions about men over porn? Wich is a industry that sells a lot more than Twilight and it has been around quite longer.
      • There's also a difference between BDSM and abusive relationships. BDSM, fetish and lifestyle alike, heavy or light, are healthy relationships with all the same boundaries, rules, and most importantly, respect, consideration, and mutual consenting as a vanilla relationship. A dominant in a BDSM relationship doesn't humiliate their sub because it's something to do. They do it because their sub allows them to do it, their sub enjoys it, and importantly, it's not something that interferes and harms either party physically or mentally (insofar as as consent goes). A slave is a slave or possession in name only in a BDSM; doms will generally never force or otherwise have a sub do something they wouldn't want to do outside of specific scene types. A dom would -never- destroy a sub's car and prevent them from seeing their friends - not unless the sub agreed to that sort of thing to begin with. But, most of all, a sub has a life outside of and beyond their dom and vice versa - they're still a person with their own goals, desires, directions, and relationships. To put a different perspective, would a father destroying their daughters car so they can't see their friends be familial love... or a father being -really- unreasonable? Abusive relationships, stalking, and similar isn't about love - it's about control, power, and possession. It's about treating people as something other than human with human emotions and values and wants - a concept, an object, an ideal. All that said, of the things listed, only destroying her car and the insulting are outright abusive - though not knowing the context and all, it's hard to say. Not really sure though there'd be a valid reason to destroy someone's car and stop them from seeing any of their friends outside of their friends being Terminators and said person is being mind controlled - a reasonable person would probably do some sort of intervention and/or allow said person to make their own choices if all else fails and they don't listen in the end.
    • Just ask yourself whether or not it's going to stand the test of time. Trust me, one day it's going to be Deader Than Disco.
      • Seconded. I'm mortified that anyone would claim it's a masterpiece because frankly, I've read webcomics that have more depth and meaning than Twilight and no ones going to call these webcomics Literary Masterpieces.
      • I know this isn't The Other Wiki, but I'd really like to see a link to those critics. I just can't believe professional critics would be that stupid until I see it for myself.
      • You really need a link? Are you too afraid to just google up any of the thousands of literary reviews of Twilight? They tend to do one of three ways: Glowing praise while blatantly ignoring the book's flaws, growling hatred while ignoring anything good about the series, and the most honest ones don't see anything too special about it, but don't exactly hate it either and admit that Your Mileage May Vary.
  • What, exactly, is the point of Marcus? I get that Aro is the dangerously obsessive one, and Caius is the dangerously bloodthirsty one, but what is Marcus? The dangerously boring one?
    • Word Of God says "Once upon a time, a fairly young vampire (he had only been a vampire for a decade and a half) named Aro changed his young sister Didyme, who had just reached adulthood, into a vampire in order to add her to his growing coven. Aro always wanted power, and because he himself had a potent mind-reading gift, he hoped his biological sister would also be gifted in a way that would help him rise in the vampire world. It turned out that Didyme did have a gift; she carried with her an aura of happiness that affected everyone who came near her. Though it wasn't exactly what he had hoped for, Aro pondered the best ways he could use this gift. Meanwhile, Aro's most trusted partner, Marcus, fell in love with Didyme. This was not unusual; given the way she made people feel, lots of people fell in love with Didyme. The difference was that this time, Didyme fell in love herself. The two of them were tremendously happy. So happy, in fact that, after a while, they no longer cared that much about Aro's plans for domination. After a few centuries, Didyme and Marcus discussed going their own way. Of course, Aro was well aware of their intentions. He was not happy about it, but he pretended to give his blessing. Then he waited for an opportunity to act, and when he knew he would never be found out, he murdered his sister. After all, Marcus's gift was much more useful to him than hers had been. This is not to say that Aro did not truly love his sister; it's just that a key part of his personality is the ability to destroy even what he loves in order to further his ambitions. Marcus never found out that Aro was responsible for Didyme's death. He became an empty man. Aro used Chelsea's gift to keep Marcus loyal to the Volturi, though not even Chelsea's gift could make Marcus show any enthusiasm for it." (link)
      • Wow. That is way more interesting than Bella and Edward's sappy relationship.
      • Seriously. I want to read a book about that.
      • Knowing Meyer, she would probably spend a couple hundred pages going on about how much Marcus and Didyme love each other and how everyone who comes in contact with her loves Didyme and wangsts about not being able to have her.
      • Yes, but at least Didyme has an in-character excuse. Bella is the kind of girl you only find attractive due to her helplessness and proclivity for getting hurt. You wanna protect her. Or put her in a rubber ball with no air.
      • Which is a moot point since she's been turned, so what is her drawn now?
      • You're right — I would rather read a fanfic about that. (Although... are there any good writers in the Twilight fandom?)
      • Here you go!
      • That is an interesting story.
      • DIDYME?!?
  • Sparkly vampires. Sparkly vampires. What the hell?
    • Our Vampires Are Different.
      • Your Vampires Suck... Also, the first book was based on a dream Meyer had about a mortal girl (her?) talking to a sparkling vampire in a field of flowers. So, there you go.
    • Seriously. The Unreveal if there ever was one. I (grudgingly) saw the movie with some friends. After an hour of nothing, Ed says that she has to see what he looks like in the sun. I was thinking maybe Van Helsing-style vampires, and...he sparkles. *facepalm*
      • Bella is Meyer only younger, slimmer, enhanced figure, more alluring face, better complexion, etc. Don't believe me? Read the passages describing Bella. Look at the girl they cast as Bella and look at a picture of Meyer. Ask yourself why they look so alike.
      • To be honest, the way they depicted the sparkling in the movie bugged me a lot more then the actual sparkling. Aren't they supposed to be like that because they're made out of sparkly rock or something? Wouldn't it make a lot more sense to have Bella look at Edward and be near-blinded by a bright shine? Not to mention make slightly more sense to why they stick to the shadows!
    • And why do they sparkle only in direct sunlight? I mean, yeah, it would be more noticeable, then... but they should sparkle at least a little in indirect sunlight or in artificial light.
      • Sparkly vampires can be summed up with an old, old aphorism: You can't polish a turd ... but you can roll it in glitter.
      • Mythbusters proved you CAN polish a turd. Still doesn't make this series any better though.
  • When Carlisle was trying to kill himself, why didn't he think of setting himself on fire?
    • Maybe he was too busy trying to stab himself with a stake? Or the garlic/sunlight/holy water deal?
    • Carlisle has a very scientific mind, and I'm willing to bet it just didn't occur to him. Death by fire is not a traditional method of killing a vampire (such as garlic/stakes/etc), nor is it a way that most people would think of if they were trying to kill themselves (such as starvation).
    • Death by fire is a common way to kill vampires in certain areas. Unfortunately, immolation hurts a lot if you don't die from it. He probably went through all the non-forever-painful ways to kill yourself and realized animal blood worked before he got to fire. Carlisle was also a Christian (who still believed he had a soul and a chance at Heaven) living in a time where a dead body had to be whole to get to Heaven. Dismemberment followed by immolation would be the last option he would chose.
    • On the subject of being a Christian and worrying about his apparent soul and admission to Heaven; suicide of any kind should be abhorrent to him anyway.
    • Well he is really worried about Bella's soul he has a lot of doubts he even has one. And when he thinks he died and was in heaven, he also though it was hell.
      • "If all else fails, use fire"?
  • ....Renesmee?!
    • Oh, and I suppose "Hermione", "Luna", "Nymphadora", "Minerva" and "Bellatrix" are common, regular, every day names, right?
      • 'Hermione' is from Greek mythology, 'Luna' is from the Latin for the moon, 'Minerva' is from Greco-Roman mythology and 'Bellatrix' is a constellation (also rooted in Greco-Roman mythology). 'Nymphadora' is a bit weird, but also has its roots on Greek mythology ('nymph') and could be thought of as 'gift of the nymphs'. None of them sound as totally weird as 'Renesmee' to me.
      • Renesmee doesn't have any parallel that I can think of. Luna while weird is there for the Loony joke. And Bellatrix always sounded like a description of her personality as much as a name. Renesmee? I don't know what to do about that.
      • Luna is pretty if unusual, Hermione is alright, Minerva is alright if old-fashioned, Nymphadora being a crappy name is canon and mined for comedy value, and Bellatrix sounds like a goth stripper, but that kind of fits for the character.
      • Many of the Blacks are named after constellations (for tradition, I suppose).
      • Harry potter takes place in a world markedly different from the human world. It's accepted and approved to give your kids old, meaningful, or even stupid names. Good old Bella lives in the human world and should know better.
    • It sounds like she was was trying to come up with a name that just sounded exotic, but tried to hard and came up with a name that sort of sounds like a type of cheese. I would make a joke involving what kind of wine goes with that or something, but everything I could think of just sounded way too much like a double entendre for me to be comfortable typing it.
    • Seriously, what is WITH the stupid names that kids get stuck with nowadays? At least Too bad the spawnling won't be going to elementary school, where That Name will be mocked on a regular basis.
    • It's a Mormon thing, apparently.
    • Two points about "Minerva": first off, the owner of that name is very much a 'traditional' type, and strict, so, she needed a strict sounding name. Secondly, Minerva is also the name of part of a very famous cartoon couple. You might know her as Minnie, but her real name is Minerva Mouse.
      • The author claims she just wanted a really really SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE name. *eye-roll*
      • This (Mormon) troper has never even heard of that tradition. Strong wtf moment.
      • Just Mormon or LDS in Utah Mormon? This troper joined for a while, but after dating a Utah Mormon had trouble with the vast cultural differences. I've met people there who named kids after the first and middle names on tombstones and a tendency to be very punny. Rusty Steele. Jade and Amber Stone. Louis Keyes. Etc. Could be worse, I never met any Thou-shall-not-commit-adultery Smiths in any of the trips.
      • According to this article, it's a young-parent thing.
    • I have nothing against parents coining completely original names so their child can have a unique one. But if you're going to do that, make it sound nice. "Renesmee" sounds idiotic.
    • This troper, having just recently finished the series (for science!) can answer that: It's a smooshing together of her mom-pire Esme and her real but not-nearly-vampire-enough mother Renee's names (for the record, Renesmee's middle name is Carlie, a smooshing together of her dad-pire Carlisle and her <repeat description of mother here> dad Charlie). It was, also, a last minute name because she was sure she would have a boy and name him "Edward Jacob Cullen". Knowing this has made him be less bugged about it, but he still thinks it's a stupid name.
      • It's better than 'Albus Severus'.
      • At least "Albus Severus" can and does use "Al" instead. "Nessie" is arguably worse than "Renesmee".
      • Granted, the kid was named after someone else, and the original was born in the late 1800s. Sure, the name's goofy by our modern standards, but back then? Maybe not so much.
      • Idea for a fanfiction: Renesmee gets turned into the sparkly monster of Loch Ness. Someone get on this. NOW.
      • "Carlie" sounds normal enough, why not make that her first name and keep "Renesmee" as an Embarassing Middle Name? Get some Added Alliterative Appeal out of it as well.
    • I keep misreading it as "Rename Me!"
      • Wonder if thats what the kid would think if she finally understands her name when she's older. Renesmee...RENAME ME!
    • To be fair, I think it's nice but it is the kind of name you see for a perfect Mary Sue whose author can't decide which spelling of Ebony Stacy Greenleaf Dementia Hermione Lordington to use.
    • At the risk of uttering a heresy, I think the name SOUNDS quite pleasant when spoke aloud, the spelling is odd but within reason (a diacritical mark to indicate stress would have been nice), but it's the fact that the name was created by squishing two people's name together that disgusted most people by it's sheer tackiness/cheesiness value.
    • Though not the type to defend these books...this troper must agree that it sounds nice (although it did bother her that SMeyer kept the ee but got rid of the accent), and that it means reborn and loved, which is a sensible name for a vampire offspring. It also is a fair representation of her parents by the theme the books meant to convey, given that Bella's rebirth and Bella/Edward's love are the main points.
    • Finally, Word Of God says that she would never name a child such a weird name, and thinks nobody should ever name their child such a weird name. What she writes on her webside is often strangely sane.
    • At least she doesn't think like a celebrity and tried to name her daughter things like Apple, Leaf, Kal-El, Pilot Inspektor, Sage Moonblood, or Rainbow Joan of Arc. That would be epically stupid.
  • These books have A LOT of flaws and I'm not denying there's some bad messages, but why is it that everyone focuses on Bella's "teenage" pregnancy? She has unlimited time and money, and her kid will be legal in only seven years. She can go to whatever college she wants, any time she wants, as many times as she wants, as all of the other Cullens have done.
    • For that matter, Bella herself was legal and married to the kid's father before she got pregnant. I'm not even sure you can say that she wasn't physically mature enough to safely have a baby. She was within a month of her nineteenth birthday, and the fact that she almost managed to survive carrying the Mary-Sue baby to term seems to me like pretty good evidence that her body would have done just fine with a normal pregnancy.
      • Y'know, in context, Mary-Sue isn't nearly so good a perjorative as spine-shattering little demon.
      • FOUNTAIN OF BLOOD! Those are the most disturbing words I have ever read in my LIFE! And I have read about a man dying from a large piece of shrapnel stuck in his chest from a landmine explosion!
    • I've seen a few variants of that complaint where the issue is that she never appeared to have any other plans, ever. She didn't think about what career she'd like, she didn't mention what course she would like to take at college, she didn't even appear to have any interests except for classic literature to show how INTELLIGENT and MATURE she was.
      • Bella says that Edward wants her to go to college, not her. She mentions as well that she feels out of sync with humanity, never thought of what to do with her life, and Edward became her life when they met. My beef is NOT that she wants to be a housewife and mother. My problem is she has no actual talents or goals other than these. She is literally a baby factory and arm candy. The only things we're told she likes she never does unless it's absolutely integral to the plot. For instance, when she reads in the first book and falls asleep on the lawn, it's a plot point so she can have UBER SPESHUL dreams and Edward can watch her. Otherwise she has nothing that she does or says which makes her unique.
      • It's not so much that she has no goal other than being a housewife, she has no goal PERIOD. She didn't even sound like she wanted to be a mother. The other ther female characters were "baby-obsessed", didn't it say she didn't even like babies? Conveniently, this one didn't stay a baby long! This character is COMPLETELY devoid of goals. I hate characters (and real life people) who are like that. (Unfortunately, it is all too common in fiction, particularly in stories where the protagonist is tossed about by fate.
      • Well her goal was to be with Edward and being a vampire, before that she was laid back and goalless. But its true what you say is a typical plot device of the common character loser that was destined to be something more. I think the problem some people have with this that its the hero's journey with a girl and not really well done on top of that.
      • On that subject, it was also convenient she was turned immortal. I once read somewhere on LiveScience that having motivation to reach goals is essential for a human to live, and people without goals have a greater change of having shorter lifespans.
      • I think that was the point: Bella's life was just waaaay average to show that even the ugly, lack of drive and future girl can get the man of their dreams. Adorable loser winning in the end badly written. Also I think is kind of implied that this was Bella's destiny so of course she was absolutely terrible in her human form.
      • Except that's not average at all. Average people generally at least 'kinda' know where they want to head to. One may not know what one wants to do, but they'll probably know they want to do something other than exist.
    • To this Troper, the problem wasn't the fact that she was pregnant more than the fact that it let loose another example of her utter lack of ambition without Edward. When she first realizes she's going to have a baby, one of her first thoughts is that she hadn't liked babies or wanted to be a mother before this but suddenly realized she was happy to have Edward's baby. If she had always wanted a baby or if she still didn't want one but decided to try to deal with it as best she could it might have seemed better but she just suddenly turns on her view in an instant which is kind of unrealistic and probably isn't a good indicator of being prepared for child care (not that she ended up needing that, ugh).
      • Well the unrealistic part I disagree since it had been used before with other characters that never wanted a baby and the moment they get pregnant they just want to be mothers, is just with a better writer it would had taken her more than three seconds to accept it. And on her defense she carried the pregnancy against Edward's wishes so at least it was not just Edward making a choice for her...yet again.
      • Still, you'd think she'd take a day or so to figure things out, especially since she didn't even think it was possible to get pregnant and the pregnancy was obviously not normal (seriously, she finds out that she's already showing after several weeks and one of her first thoughts is how pretty the baby would be?)
  • Why in God's name would a vampire want to go through high school over and over again?
    • Uh, he just wants to be normal?
    • This was lampshaded in The Vampire Diaries in an episode when the villain made fun of the main character for being a masochist, brooding about vampirism rather than accepting it, and made fun of him for going back to High School.
      ''' Damon: What’s so special about this Bella girl? Edward’s so whipped.
      '''Caroline: You gotta read the first book first … won’t make sense if you don’t.
      '''Damon: [Sigh] I miss Anne Rice. She was so on it.
      '''Caroline: How come you don’t sparkle?
      '''Damon: Cause I live in the real world where vampires burn in the sun.
      '''Caroline: Yeah, but you go in the sun.
      '''Damon: I have a ring. It protect me. Long story.
      '''Caroline: Will these bites turn me into a vampire?
      Damon: It’s more complicated than that. Yeah, you’d have to feed on my blood, then die, then feed on a human —->it’s a whole ordeal. This book, by the way, has it all wrong.
    • He's a masochist. It's also why he married a girl who has gone to the emergency room so many times that her home should be investigated for child abuse.
      • It's not so much about enduring high school as it is about enduring high school girls. Because frankly, it's been less than a decade since I graduated, and I can't think of any non-perverse reason to hang around with fifteen- and sixteen-year-old girls. Our interests, points of reference, and maturity levels are so wildly out of sync that relating to each other would be a bit of a challenge. You'd think with a century-plus of life under the old belt, the disparity would be even more pronounced.
      • That would make sense, except for the fact that none of the Cullens show any sort of interest in school or their fellow students whatsoever—in fact, in Midnight Sun Edward goes on about how horribly mind-numbing school is. If they repeated school because maybe they liked the structure and having something to do on a daily basis (this was my personal theory for a while, because come on, after several centuries you'd probably get bored) or actually enjoyed meeting new people and forming friendships outside of their species, I could except this plot device. However, the bottom line is, the Cullens are there merely to move the plot along. Had they not been there, Bella would have never met Edward and the world would have never been spared the atrocity that is Twilight, because for some reason it never crossed Meyer's mind that maybe the Cullen kids could say they were, oh I dunno, home schooled or something.
      • Or jeeze, just get them a fake ID that says they're in their early twenties so they can get a job. It's not terribly difficult for people in their late teens to pass for being in their early twenties, for God's sake. Hell, he wouldn't have to do anything but pretend to be eighteen or nineteen to avoid the school thing over and over again. They're so used to lying about their age, you'd think it would occur to them to just...lie a little more.
      • That's it, Meyer probably just didn't realize that the Cullens could have been home-schooled. Or Carlisle insisted that the Cullens be part of the community.
      • I think that the reason is that a clan of pretty looking people living isolated, home schooled and on total secrecy would be far more attention grabing that just a group of rich snobs going to HS. In Midnight Sun you see that even if HS is horribly boring they needed Edward to check the thoughts of people to know when it was time to move if any of them came to the realization of what they were. And one of the ways that Edward used to help him to resist killing Bella was to get used to her scent so I'm guessing having the "vegetarians" away from human flesh for too long would just make things worst if they happened to run into one on a dark alley.
      • Except how many pretty rich isolated folk do you know very well. Though celebrities are the most notable, there are in fact many other wealthy people that exist ya know. As far as checking on the local population, there are also more ways to see what a community thinks of you than high school (which is unlikely to be the best way to gauge -that-).
    • Also, why did nobody notice Ed was there for a wee bit too long? Well, Domination or other hypnosis tricks look like a good way to explain it, but why the hell even bother in the first place?
      • He went to multiple high schools, graduated from multiple colleges, (maybe tried a few careers), and then started over somewhere else.
    • The younger they start out in one place, the longer they can stay there. Carlisle is all about playing happy families, and part of his playing happy families is to live in one place for as long as he can.
    • Intellectual curiosity? Edward, for example, would have graduated high school in, what, 1919? In the interim 90 years, new literature has been written/discovered, science has soldiered onward, education is approached in entirely different ways, etc. If they want to go to university, it's still probably a prerequisite. If you want to get a science degree in this day and age, you can't be under the impression that we're still believe in the plum pudding model.
    • Plot-driving out of the story and who knows within. If Edward's so very, very bored with human teenagers—as he makes so clear in Midnight Sun, with constantly harping on how humans are all mindless, petty drones (except for mentally-impaired Mary Sues—, he must be a masochist or really dense to spend over seventy years listening to them. As mentioned above, it's not like any of them try to make friends or experience the world, either. Yes, humans can tell they're dangerous (except mentally-impaired Mary Sues) but you can't tell me in the entirety of their time as vampires not one other person wanted to be friends just to be friends. Not one other person could look past their instincts and try to be nice? Not one time did Alice or Emmet see some kid they thought was cool and wanted to hang with? I call bull. I do agree it's possible Carlisle persuaded them, but even he'd have to see the futility of sending a bunch of perfect, genius, ages-older vampires to mingle with human kids. What did he expect to happen?
  • How the fuck did Edward Sparklepants go 108 years without even a single sexual thought until Bella showed up? Vampire or no, he was turned when he was seventeen — If he's really "never felt anything but a mother's love before," by that age, he's either neutered or named Oedipus Rex.
    • It is established that Edward can't achieve an orgasm without him sucking the blood of his intended laid. That's why he represses all sexual impulses: because he is a "vegetarian", a vampire with a soul. Like Angel.
      • And that explains years 13-17 how? Sexual revolution or no sexual revolution, there's a four year span where he would have been a hormonal, human teenager going through puberty who I will presume has seen at least one girl outside of his immediate family. Am I supposed to honestly believe that no girl set his fireworks off in any, and that Bella's magical super speshul fresco fressia scent is SO GLORIOUS AND MAGICAL that it can not only instantly turn on 108-year-old, sexually-repressed vampires, but also 108-year old, asexual vampires as well?
      • It's called plot. A talented writer would realize the problem with this and try to deal accordingly. Ms. Meyer instead decides to write about her perfect fantasy of a man who somehow never even had thoughts in that general direction for a hundred years. Which is so incredibly blind to facts that it qualifies as her thinking that her readers are idiots.
      • Asexuality exists in humans... though even still, that does -not- mean they also lack a sexual drive and what have you. And I suppose the conceit of a man who is a virgin is a twist on the distaff equivalent of a virgin girl.
      • Angel still gets sexually aroused, also. And has sex, very occasionally.
    • He channeled his sexual energy into picking up lots of hobbies and arguing with Emmett.
    • He also admits that he doesn't remember a lot of his human life. He could have had a lot of sexual thoughts and just didn't spend any time remembering them when he became a vampire. When most of the human memories went away so did the sexual ones. Once he became a vampire, he would have been able to hear any woman's thoughts first. Hearing disturbing sexual fantasies involving yourself by women that you find unattractive because you know they are stupid or vain or greedy would turn most people off sex.
    • Also vampiric sex and human sex are mileages away (according to Bella's account) so posibly whatever sexual though he had, before he turned was so meaningless to the potential he could had felt, Edward is obviously a hopeless 19th century romantic so the women's fantasy would be probably a turn off because he couldn't get to the courtship period to win a woman's heart so I guess it explains why he was so repressed and why Bella was the one that got his attention on over a century, since even if she showed him that he loved her he couldn't be completetely sure of what she was thinking... Now why no one is complaining over Bella being the same? She also claimed not to have had a sexual though before she fell for him at 17.
      • Still, he could have seen plenty of women who didn't see him and thought they were attractive. Fuck, he's the perfect rapist if he wanted to be: inhumanly strong, fast, agile, and can hide in shadows. Even if he's too good to do it, I can't believe he's never even thought of kissing a women, let alone actually sleeping with any.
      • I think is implied that all human females would find him attractive if he tried and dazzled them, you know the perfect predator thing. And maybe that is exactly why he repressed himself so much. If he managed to let his sexual urges overcome him (vampires never get tired of it) he might start to lose control and instead of seducing women 24/7 start to rape them and maybe even eventually kill them, after all he thinks of himself as a soulless monster. So he rather took the other way around...Til of course Bella.
      • Lesbians would just find him creepy.
      • Lesbian?What is that?
  • Apparently Meyer thinks being a vampire means you see the world through a curtain of purple prose so thick that freaking Eragon would get tired of all the poetry these blood-suckers see the world in. Not to mention, Bella's reaction to Jacob's imprinting was utterly uncalled for. I guess being one of the beautiful people means you get to be obsessive, possessive and just plain bitchy whenever you want.
    • I thought of the being angry at imprinting business as them being protective parents. Parents, especially when the baby's first born, are generally very protective and want to spend most of their time with their new kid. I think it's understandable that they're mad at Jacob for stealing all their time with their kid. Also, the implications of imprinting are pretty disgusting to think about, especially when it comes to your own child. I wouldn't want someone coming up to me when I have a baby and tell me that they love my kid so much that they want to marry her when she grows up and spend all the time between with her.
      • I completely agree. If one of my friends came up to me and told me they were in love with my infant daughter, I would be pissed off too. Yeah, I know she's super-fast developed or whatever, but this dude is still basically staking a claim on my kid, and chronologically, she's still a baby. It's creepy as Hell.
      • Indeed, that was one of the many problems with imprinting that this troper had: everyone seemed to fully expect the baby to grow up and marry the wolf. Nevermind if the baby grows up to reject that though, do the parents know about that plan and if so, are they honestly alright with the thought that a grown man has fallen head-over-heals and irreversibly in love with their daughter and plans to marry her when she is of age? Wouldn't they think to get a restraining order or something?
      • Interesting enough in a lot of other cultures this is exactly they way people get married. I wonder if they were disgusted by this on the books or found it normal.
      • Which cultures are those? If one is talking about arranged marriages of adult men to young girls, that's one thing (and generally the relationship such as it is starts right away) as would be arranged marriages (but those are generally political in origin). This one hasn't heard of a culture where adult men are given arranged marriages to babies and wait several years.
      • The "overprotective parenting" thing doesn't quite hold up with me when, for the last third of the book, if Edward and Bella aren't fawning over Renesmee, they're off having sex.
  • This isn't so much Twilight as it is Stephenie Meyer and her huge fit over the leak of Midnight Sun. I can understand why she wouldn't want people to read a rough draft, or if it was brand new book and a HUGE chunk of plot was spoiled...but we all now what will happen in this one..RIGHT DOWN TO THE THINGS THEY SAY. It just bugs me that Stephenie Meyer wants to be coddled by all her fans...
    • If you ask me, she wanted Twilight to be back in the news. You'll notice that the part released cut right before the meadow, the most anticipated part of the book. Everyone was waiting for Edward's opinion of the meadow scene or anything afterward.
    • I'm glad she has stopped writing it. Maybe she'll write a book centered around the Volturi. Or Bree. Or the Quilete tribe. Or the Amazon Coven. Or Carlisle. Basically, anyone but Edward or Renesmee.
      • I don't think she would write a book about Carlisle. She said on the subject that it would involve so much research and she's lazy.
      • She said she was too lazy? What an awesome way to disappoint Carlisle fans...
    • I don't even like Twilight, but how is it fair to her fans to not write a promised sequel for the people who keep her in the green? These are the people who have her quotes tattooed on their bodies, force respectable new sources to give up their seats at events, and literally shriek with joy whenever her series is mentioned. I think it's mean of her to take away Midnight Sun for those people who actually like the series.
    • I want to see someone ruin your novel, then let's see how you react.
      • Sorry, honey, her novel wasn't "ruined." A chunk of it, if you want to be generous, was ruined. Guess what? Rewrite it. Shit happens and people act like dicks. If she was going to throw a hissy if it got leaked, she shouldn't have handed out a bunch of copies in the first place. As well, as an above poster pointed out, it's not like she actually bothered to write a new story. She fucking copy-pasted from Twilight. If she's too damn lazy to actually rewrite the series, I don't give a fuck if she got burned. Incidentally, none of my novels will ever be leaked because I'm smart enough to know my work sucks right now and *if* I ever consider it worth printing, I won't be a dumbfuck who sends out copies to people—R Pattz, K Stew—who have made it crystal clear they hate the series.
      • Her novel wasn't ruined; it was partially leaked. How does a book even get leaked in its rough form? I mean, books are usually handwritten or typed and are almost never printed with more than 2 or 3 copies until they're completed and put into publication. Meyer even said herself it was leaked by a person she gave an advance copy to, a person she deeply trusted. Sounds to me like the books was released to drum up anticipation or that Meyer told the person that the book was not going to be completed and the person leaked it as retribution.
      • Same reason many other mundane (and not so mundane) crimes happen - most of them are committed by people close to you and that you trust. For instance, most people have trouble with various accounts not because someone cracked their password... but because someone they know and trusted asked them for it or otherwise had access to their possessions. Such crimes happen precisely because people betray what may seem to be unbreakable trust.
      • Not only that, but Breaking Dawn was leaked also. And Meyer just politely asked everyone who saw what was leaked to keep quiet and not spoil it for everyone. So it's not like that's the first time it's happened to her. There's no reason why she couldn't just again have asked the readers to keep quiet about the leak until she was done and ready to publish it.
    • I think Cracked sums it up pretty well with #5 here. Some emotionally starved individuals crave fame because it gives them a sense of power. They effectively put themselves in a similar position the people they felt abused them occupied; they have legions of admiring, even obsessed fans, yet they're free to treat them like crap if it ends up making them feel more powerful. Likewise, if they feel like something's threatening to take that feeling of control away from them, they move to shut it down. Now, I'm not a psychologist, and I've never actually read or seen anything in the Twilight series, this is just my personal assessment.
  • It seems too much to this troper that Bella's basically going to have a perfect life. Unlimited time, money, a perfect daughter, perfect husband and perfect family? That's too good all the way through. All she has to worry about is her human friends (like she cares about them at all...) and family dying and Jacob dying if he eventually chooses to stop phasing. And since Resnesmee will be immortal too once she matures I doubt he would stop out of a desire to be with her. There needs to be some sacrifices!
    • But Bella is an idiot she totally forgot that, the Vulturi's first wanted to take Alice and Edward and now the Cullen family has her and Reneesme, plus the shapeshifters as things to collect into their army for power and they won't forget how many vampires were on Carlisle side during the last book, no to mention than on seven years Nessie would be grown up enough for Jacob to start to see her "that way" and that there are other half-vampire girls that might influence her to make diferent choices when she get to notice she is the only one diferent on the family and with both parents being maniac-depressive that surely won't be good during her "teen" years, also Renee would eventually want to see her daughter. So I think that she may think she will be happy forever but the books let enough room to speculate that she is absolutely wrong... as usual.
    • I cling to the idea that time will show them their folly. For instance, parts of what drew Edward to Bella were her "selfless" love of her family, her mortality, her scent, and her need for protection. None of these exists any longer and some of them didn't ever. She's going to leave her family, she isn't mortal, she no longer smells like fucking freesia, and she doesn't need to be protected. The biggest reason of all is also no longer a draw. Edward has the chance to hear her thoughts and I bet he's going to be a bit surprised to know his deep, thoughtful lady is just as shallow and perverted as the women he scorned. On the flip side, most of what drew Bella to Edward was how he protected her and his looks because he deigned to love her. He no longer has to protect her and she's just as beautiful and skilled now. What exactly are they going to have in common anymore? Books that neither of them read? One or two songs? A penchant for being egotistic, melodramatic asshats? I can only hope someone has written a scathing fanfiction where they're divorced and live hundreds of miles away from each other because they can't stand each after finally getting what they wanted.
      • You're dream is amazing but we both know Meyer won't let it end that way. It's a romance novel built to give Bella Sue the ultimate happy ending. Anything short of sparkling fairy queen of earth will be an insult to Meyer vision.
    • Here's to hoping that the last words of the last book are, "Hey honey, let's move to Sunnydale!"
      • I, personally was hoping for something along the lines of, "And then I woke up."
      • More importantly, will you marry me? Over the internet?
      • I prefer the Sunnydale ending though the dream is good too. Somehow it just seems just to have Bella staked by a person who has real troubles like Faith or Buffy. It's just so appropriate.
      • On that note, it bugs me that I can't find any crossover fics between Twilight and Buffy The Vampire Slayer that are putting the implications of that into action in some manner. For crying out loud, how are there so many genuine BTVS/Twilight fans who write the crossovers and completely miss the irony?
      • This fic isn't COMPLETELY related, but at least somebody noticed the irony.
      • Thankyou. So, so much. When my imagined crossovers weren't about Buffy slaying Edward's ass, they were about Spike laughing his ass off at the sparkling.
      • Or how 'bout Buffy laughing her ass off at Edward's sparkling before slaying him! And then proceeding to laugh about it long after.
      • The combined forces of You Tube and ingenious editing have brought us Buffy slays Edward.
      • "Giles, I killed a weird vampire today! He tried to sparkle off into the sunset but I slew his ass. Spike would've laughed had he not burned in a storm of sunlight that destroyed the Sunnydale Hellmouth before being resurrected to help Angel defeat that demonic law firm. Wait, am I supposed to know about that?"
    • Folklore tells of the dhampir, the child of a vampire and a human. They were known for being incredibly efficient vampire hunters. So Mary Sue + Sparklepire = Buffy.
      • Or better yet Faith. It turns out that her parents had gotten so much good luck in their lives, that all that was left for their daughter was a crappy life slaying and trying to hold together her fragile psyche.
  • It bugs me how much Bella complains about the weather. I am British. Crappy weather is all I have ever known. I have a cold so bad that I can't feel the front half of my face right now. A little rain is not so bad.
    • Are you suggesting that Lady Sue should have to sit through anything less than perfect sunny, bright blue days for her to frolic in and slightly cloudy evenings for going out with her boyfriend? Blasphemy!
    • Myers put the books in Forks and it is true that it rains all the time here and that the flaky Californian transplants always whine about it no matter how long they've lived with the drizzle, so that's more like unintentional Truth In Television
      • It's not just the Californians, sadly; this troper has lived in Western Washington her whole life and hates the rain so much she might as well be a California transplant. Then again, I also broke my back when I was seventeen and the damp settles into it like a mad bastard, which really doesn't help. If there's one thing I've noticed about native Washingtonians, it's that if we're not bitching about the rain, we're bitching about the lack of it; we're not happy one way or the other. (Note that I am not actually defending Bella's whining; she chose to move here, after all.) Us natives have the right to gripe, but nobody put a gun to anyone else's head and made them move here. At least, I hope not, but that would be another story entirely—a far more interesting one.
      • Also, Bella is from a desert state.
    • The reason the Cullens live there is because their...condition prevents them from living anywhere but in mostly sun-free places, like rainforests (Forks is a temperate rainforest) and the poles.
      • The poles? You're talking about the "6 months of uninterrupted sunlight" poles!
      • Forks actually gets a fair amount of at least partially sunny days in summer, and in any event 'overcast' is not going to prevent sparkly things from sparkling. Granted Arizona doesn't get the kind of socked-in gloom we can get up here, but still, all you have to do is take something glittery outside on a cloudy day and watch it...glitter. It won't be prismatic ('incandescent chest, LOL'), but it will still sparkle. One has to wonder why they don't just, you know, invest in make-up.
    • I think Forks sounds lovely, myself. Bella's just whiny.
    • This American troper sympathizes. I live in Florida and my grandparents live in Michigan. Whenever I visit them I am endlessly bemused at the incontinent piddle they refer to as "rain". Where I come it doesn't even count as rain unless the streets are flooding. My grandparent's friends run inside with newspapers over their heads at the slightest drizzle, then they complain about it.
    • Come on, guys, shut up and let Bella whine over a little drizzle while HURRICANE KATRINA'S ON THE OTHER FREAKING SIDE OF THE COUNTRY.
      • That... that makes no sense. Usually people say, "This is just a little rain. Get over it. People are drowning in floods!" and I don't think it goes the other way around...
  • Why did Meyer have to latch onto Muse like that? While I'm sure she genuinely likes them and the popularity of her books no doubt drew people to their concerts, she has unwittingly set them up as "that band that Twilight hawked endlessly". It's sort of wrong, considering that they're a group with sort of a psychological science fiction sound that is now sometimes associated with a sappy romance book about Friendly Neighborhood Vampires.
    • I find irony in the choice of "Supermassive Black Hole" as the obligatory Muse song for the movie. As mentioned above, Muse's style clashes with the books quite a bit, but they would probably have been a lot better if they used this song as the mood setting for the central relationship. Here are some of the lyrics:
      Oh baby don't you know I suffer?
      Oh baby can you hear me moan?
      You caught me under false pretenses,
      How long before you let me go?
      • I like Paramore's take better:
      Look what we've done
      We've made such fools
      Of ourselves
      How can I decide what's right
      When you're clouding up my mind?
      Can't win your losing fight
      All the time

      Nor could I ever own what's mine
      When you're always taking sides
      But you won't take away my pride
      No, not this time
      Not this time

      How did we get here
      When I used to know you so well?
      How did we get here?
      Well, I think I know, I think I know
      The truth is hiding in your eyes
      And it's hanging on your tongue
      Just boiling in my blood
      But you think that I can't see

      What kind of man that you are
      If you’re a man at all
      Well, I will figure this one out
      On my own

      (I’m screaming, "I love you so")
      On my own
      (But my thoughts you can't decode)
      How did we get here
      When I used to know you so well? (Yeah)
      How did we get here?
      When I used to know you so well?
      Well, I think I know, I think I know

      Do you see what we've done?
      We've gone and made such fools
      Of ourselves
      Do you see what we've done?
      We've gone and made such fools
      Of ourselves

      Yeah...
      How did we get here
      When I used to know you so well? (Yeah, yeah, yeah)
      Well, how did we get here?
      I used to know you so well

      I think I know
      I think I know

      There is something I see in you
      It might kill me,
      But I want it to be true...
      • Another song that would work is Hysteria. Check out the some of the lyrics below and the video. It may have multiple possible interpretations and is partly homage to The Wall... but it features an attractive, muscular stalker obsessed with a dark haired girl.:
      It's holding me, morphing me
      And forcing me to strive
      To be endlessly cold within
      And dreaming I'm alive

      'Cause I want it now
      I want it now
      Give me your heart and your soul
      And I'm breaking down
      I'm breaking out
      last chance to lose control

      And want you now
      I want you now
      I'll feel my heart implode
      And I'm breaking out
      Escaping now
      Feeling my faith erode
    • One song that [[2writeis2life this Troper]] associates with Twilight is "Special Delivery" by The Offspring. She actually made a LiveJournal post about it.
    • On the bright side, the soundtrack was easily the best thing about the movie.
      • Except for the part where they co-op'd a mournful, symbolism-rich ballad about aching nostalgia and growing disillusionment with American culture (Flightless Bird, American Mouth) for a movie embracing the shallowest, silliest parts of said culture NON-IRONICALLY.
  • Okay, in the first book, Bella is told by a vampire that he has her mom. Bella has five superpowered vampire buddies. Why the hell does she go to face the evil vampire alone? She didn't think the Cullens could come up with a plan that would save her mother without putting herself in danger? Idiot!
    • The only conclusion I can draw is that she just enjoys placing herself in mortal danger. It's the only explanation for a few of her actions, really.
    • Well, yeah. She has rocks for brains and semi-suicidal tendencies. It's the most logical explanation.
      • What bugs ME is that there are entire discussions about how ultra-mega-powerful this James guy is - Laurent refuses to takes sides in what would be an eight-on-one fight because James scares him that badly. And after roughing up a teenage girl, he's killed off screen by two of the Cullens! So much for my hope that some of the sparkly vampires would go down with him ...
    • I have a pet theory about this: it has to do with exactly why the Miaka effect happens. See, Bella is not used to danger like the Cullens are, or even those of us who read adventure fiction. She thinks of all trouble as this horrible, unstoppable thing, sort of like a flood or a hurricane and if you can't get out of the way you're going to die and that's it. If that's the case and your friends CAN get out of the way, it's actually noble to sacrifice yourself and to save them. The problem is that Bella couldn't see any other solutions, not that the solution itself wasn't a good idea in the right circumstances. It didn't help any that Laurent was talking about how unstoppable James is.
      • Despite making logical sense in the first book, it STILL greatly pulls down the plot. And Bella doesn't stop her unnecessarily suicidal tendencies as the series continues and she gets more used to danger. So it's not the Miaka effect in place. It's just Stephanie Meyer's bad writing and the need for an extremely helpless Sue.
    • I find it more idiotic that Bella is so clumsy that James' attack can be passed off as a klutz attack. But also yeah, the lack of an actual fight scene in ANY of the books is severely depressing. I hope they make up for it by an epic battle at the end of the Breaking Dawn movie instead of the wimpy-ass talk the actual source material gave us.
      • Make it a pointless ultra gore-fest so it slapped with an R-rating so Meyer can't watch it! It's not like they can do the birthing scene PG-13 without heaping bowls of Narm and Special Effects Failure.
  • Edward. Stalks. Bella. As in, follows her to another town on her night out with friends. As in, breaks into her house almost every night to watch her sleep for like, weeks. Both before they were together, without her knowledge or consent. And then it's presented as romantic. Bella is flattered. And this stalking isn't merely the creepy and possessive but ultimately physically harmless kind, Edward said himself that he is constantly on the verge of killing her. This is just like all those episodes of Smallville with Lana's stalkers, only this time, he actually ends up with her. God, what is going on inside Meyer's head?
    • THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!!! Stop watching me in your sleep you creepy, possessive STALKER. Oh, and if it's all the same to you, I'd like to be able to have A LIFE OUTSIDE OF MY BOYFRIEND. LEAVE MY CAR ALONE!!!!!!!!
      • If I remember the book correctly, Bella is presented as being "out of touch with humanity." Maybe that includes a lack of common sense, or the ability to learn about stranger danger, or even when to run away from someone who's current deepest desire is to DRAIN YOUR BODY OF ALL IT'S BLOOD!
    • I have just read the first book (Bile Fascination), so when I criticize it I can do so with authority. Although I found parts of it hilariously bad, I found Edward's actions towards Bella, and the fact he's held up as a king of romance by so many (including the author and many who are not just naive schoolgirls, which would have been bad enough), deeply unsettling.
    • And Edward's stalking isn't even the worst part! Imprinting is really creepy too! A 2 year old will grow up knowing that everyone expects her to marry and have little puppies with the werewolf. And the whole "the relationship isn't sexual" is bullshit, because if imprinting is meant for reproduction, then it is highly sexual. You know a series is disturbing if stalking isn't even the creepiest part.
    • Edward calls himself a stalker multiple times in Midnight Sun but never actually does anything about it. Doesn't everyone in his family have about ten medical degrees? Not one of them has a psychiatric degree? He couldn't talk to them and get help? It doesn't get any better in the later books, either. He forces her to go with him in Twilight, before they're even dating, and she's "kitten-angry." Bella becomes a zombie when he leaves her in New Moon and even performs dangerous stunts to force a mental hallucination of Edward's voice. He removes Bella's engine to keep her at home in Eclipse and she's barely annoyed because she thinks it's sweet. He demands she not see Jacob and, though she does so anyway, thinks it's just so protective of him. He tries to force her to have an abortion against her will in Breaking Dawn, and she's a hair's breath angrier. It's a damn good thing she got turned, because I have a feeling he would have killed her eventually, and not from sucking her blood.
    • BUT WAIT! IT GETS WORST! In Midnight sun there are PAGES of him describing how he would kill Bella and the entire biology class! What. The. Hell. It made me so disgusted that I stopped reading it. Oh yeah, and he described it in purple prose too.
      • If my memory serves me right, he described that ten-second scene in ten pages. Which means I wasted five precious minutes I'm never gonna get back on ten freaking seconds. Thanks a lot.
    • He stalks her and thirsts for her blood as he does it. But he can control himself well enough that he doesn't end up killing her. But I must say this: Bella's period.
  • How can Bella's demon spawn exist? Edward is supposed to be 'frozen in time', i.e. his body doesn't produce sperm, and since he lacks body heat, his stored sperm should have died long before the *shudders* conception. Hell, if we include the chromosomal differences between humans and vampires, it makes the spawn even more unlikely. Did Meyer simply fail biology, or am I missing something?
    • I think the theory behind the female infertility in sparklepires is that, in order to accommodate a child, the body has to stretch, skinwise, and produce new skin cells, and female spraklpires can't. Stephenie Meyer is probably working with that.
    • All of you are forgetting that we are not talking about regular vampires, we are talking about Meyer vampires. Meyer vampires don't get killed by sunlight, garlic, stakes, crosses or holy water. Who's to say they are even undead to begin with (as opposed to immortal)?
      • Meyer calls her vampires 'based on science'. That they're not standard vampires does not excuse them from following basic biology.
    • And even if Bella can have kids by Edward because Edward's sperm has been "frozen", then it's Edward's human sperm that's frozen, so Nessie shouldn't be half-vampire. So, it has to be Edward's vampire sperm, which makes no sense at all because a predatory cannot mate with its prey, that's just ridiculous.
    • Meyer says "Vampires are physically similar enough to their human origins to pass as humans under some circumstances (like cloudy days). There are many basic differences. They appear to have skin like ours, albeit very fair skin. The skin serves the same general purpose of protecting the body. However, the cells that make up their skin are not pliant like our cells, they are hard and reflective like crystal. A fluid similar to the venom in their mouths works as a lubricant between the cells, which makes movement possible (note: this fluid is very flammable). A fluid similar to the same venom lubricates their eyes so that their eyes can move easily in their sockets. (However, they don't produce tears because tears exist to protect the eye from damage, and nothing is going to be able to scratch a vampire's eye.) The lubricant-venom in the eyes and skin is not able to infect a human the way saliva-venom can. Similarly, throughout the vampire's body are many versions of venom-based fluids that retain a marked resemblance to the fluid that was replaced, and function in much the same way and toward the same purpose. Though there is no venom replacement that works precisely like blood, many of the functions of blood are carried on in some form. Also, the nervous system runs in a slightly different but heightened way. Some involuntary reactions, like breathing, continue (in that specific example because vampires use the scents in the air much more than we do, rather than out of a need for oxygen). Other involuntary reactions, like blinking, don't exist because there is no purpose for them. The normal reactions of arousal are still present in vampires, made possible by venom-related fluids that cause tissues to react similarly as they do to an influx of blood. Like with vampire skin—which looks similar to human skin and has the same basic function—fluids closely related to seminal fluids still exist in male vampires, which carry genetic information and are capable of bonding with a human ovum. This was not a known fact in the vampire world (outside of Joham's personal experimenting) before Nessie, because it's nearly impossible for a vampire to be that near a human and not kill her." Well, it all makes perfect sense now.
      • ...vampires have lube in their skin, and that's why they can move? Did I read that correctly?
      • Oh, isn't Bella just so special because she's one of the only humans that a vampire loved enough to not kill on sight? SO SPECIAL.
      • Yeah, except that the genetic information is not carried in the fluid, it's carried in the sperm cells. Cells which, to produce, the body must be constantly undergoing cell division. It makes no sense that male vampires would still be undergoing spermatogenesis when female vampires stop ovulating. If anything, it should be the females that are fertile, because females are born with all the ova they'll ever produce. For that matter, if it's a question of viable offspring, there's all the more reason for the female vampires to be the fertile ones, because they'd be far more likely to survive carrying a half-vampire baby to term, and less likely to have their family kill it. So basically, the only reason I can think of to not make female vampires fertile is to make Rosalie angst.
      • That's placing vampires within a different species—at best, they're a subspecies of baseline humanity. Moreover, Homo sapiens vampiric is an evolutionary dead end, because vampires have no need to reproduce. They carry on the species by being the species, since they effectively live forever, and can "reproduce" by infecting others. Without reproduction, no evolution—if ever there was a strain of vampirism that resulted in female vampires that could bear young, it would make little difference to the species as a whole. In fact, it would make even less difference—vampires who can't reproduce are more likely to infect others to carry on their line, while vampires who can reproduce can only have a finite amount of children.
      • You make good points. I mean, if smampires can MOVE, they can probably ovulate.
      • All that aside, if vampires don't have blood, Edward shouldn't even be able to get an erection, much less have pillow-biting sex.
      • Well, Meyer did say in the quote above that they have venom-like fluids that work like the fluids they had before. Doesn't mean it's not all stupid failology. She should have just said that it was magic and saved herself the work of OMG, coming up with a plausible story, seeing as how she did such a shitty job of it.
      • It makes perfect sense how he can have sex, if you recall that in Twilight, vampires have marble-hard skin. He's effective erect enough to stick it in a woman all the time.
      • *hurrrk*
      • There's a difference between "hard" and "erect" though. His skin is the former, not the latter. An erection requires blood.
    • Still doesn't explain how they got past the chromosome difference; don't vampires have 26?
      • Well you can have a mule. They just usually have an odd number of chromes and thus are infertile. Maybe Renesmee is just incapable of bearing quarter-vampire werewolf babies.
      • But if she were incapable of having kids herself, would Jacob have imprinted on her? Leah thinks that no one has imprinted on her because she is a "genetic dead end." If she's right, then Jacob wouldn't have imprinted on Renesmee if she were a genetic dead end, as well.
      • Twenty-five, actually. But that's another thing: how does getting infected with venom give someone two extra chromosome pairs? And why did it feel like Stephenie Meyer was trying to revamp (retcon?) her supernatural races on the fourth book?
    • I think the spermheads are also immortal. This does not explain how Joham stored enough semen to impregnate like four women at one time. Maybe he has really big testicles or something.
      • After speaking with a woman about her husband's vasectomy, I come away with the understanding that it takes thirty instances to get rid of the semen - they don't remove it and it doesn't just drip out or something. Joham would be able to impregnate four women if he hadn't already had sex several times. The real problem in this equation is the cells.
      • The real reason Edward could spawn with Bella is due to him never having a sexy thought in his life prior to meeting her. Because of this he had at least one shot at it, If You Know What I Mean.
      • If you mean that since Edward never ejaculated, he had a massive buildup of sperm, then that's wrong. Part of spermatogenesis is the dismantling of old sperm for material for new sperm.
    • Actually, in folklore vampires could have children (called dhampirs) with humans. It makes the ending incredibly funny, because dhampirs were most prized for being vampire hunters.
    • Once again, since Edward = Angel, Renesmee = Connor.
      • Except they weren't called dhampirs. They were called a variety of other things. Dhampir is a modern word which I hate with a passion.
      • That's incorrect. We got the word "vampire" from the Serbian language through Hungarian through German. The word "dhampir" also comes directly from that language. Both of them are at least several hundred years old, and have numerous synonyms. The idea that the word "dhampir" was made up by Vampire Hunter D is completely false, and the actual word itself was never even used in the actual works until the novels started to be translated in 2005, when the english translator Leahy corresponded with Kikukuchi and learned about the research the latter made into Eastern European folklore.
      • Whatever they're called, I smell a fanfic...
    • If Meyer says vampire venom is like sperm, should every damn female ever bitten get pregnant? Even if she died, there would be signs of conception. The venom goes throughout the body, so some of it must get to the reproductive parts. Also, I bet at least one other vampire sexed up a human before eating her, so she'd get pregnant too.
      • The point is, Meyer should have just said "it's magic" and not tried to be scientific in a story she admitted she'd done no research for.
  • Jacob tells Bella all about the ancient tribal lore of werewolves and vampires. Bella finds out vampires are very real. Jacob starts acting funny, and she sees a pack of giant wolves scare a vampire off. She STILL can't put together exactly what's going on with Jacob and his new friends, even when he comes to her house and says "The answer is right in front of you, I told you everything already." Is she really that stupid? Or was I not supposed to connect the dots in this extremely obvious little setup?
    • You do realize you just spoiled what is supposed to be the main twist of the upcoming New Moon movie? Or that the movie audience (as opposed to the book readers) knows as much about this as Bella?
      • Who cares? A Twilight fan would have to be fond of pain or looking for a fight to come traipsing through this JBM page.
      • Um... diddums. You Should Know This Already.
      • If any of the movie fans have watched any media coverages, they probably already know he's a werewolf. They call Jacob a werewolf all of the time, which won't give audiences a surprise at all when they see the movie.
    • What got me was that she uses the word "russet" every time Jacob ever appears, and never anywhere else. Then she sees the giant russet colored wolf. Gee whatever could this mean. Also the fact that Jacob's acting funny involved joining some sort of "pack" should have given her a clue too.
  • Bella is all about being a vampire from the get-go. Nobody can come up with a reason to tell her no other than some claptrap about the afterlife. No mention is made about how such a wonderful, immortal life comes with the price of a powerful desire to feed on humans. Talk about a Broken Aesop.
    • In her case, the hunger doesn't even count because she "chose" to be a vampire and thus doesn't have the hunger—which means she has superpowers, immortality, beauty, and nothing to sacrifice but her family which she doesn't give a crap about anyway.
    • Isn't the actual curse of immortality enough to make anyone reject vampirism?
      • Not when you get to spend eternity with your perfect soulmate, perfect child and her perfect mate, and your perfect surrogate family who all adore you.
    • But, her vampirism is another example of the book's sexism. Even though Bella wanted to be a vampire from the get-go, she doesn't actually become a vampire of her own choice. She actually becomes a vampire of Edward's choice.
      • It was her choice, though. Edward didn't want her to be a vampire, but she made it clear she was going to become one anyway by another Cullen if he wouldn't agree to it. And it was her plan for Edward to change her after the demon baby was out because she knew it was going to kill her. If Edward had had his way she would have remained human and he would have committed suicide as soon as she died, whether as an old woman (though I really can't see Bella lasting that long with her tendency toward disaster). They also probably would have never had sex.
    • This troper's WMG? She's the perfect Renfield. If Twi-pires have all this fantastic glittery mind control shit floating around, it's not too hard to leap to the conclusion that Edward's influencing a particularly weak willed teenage girl into being his bountiful winepress— and thinking she likes it.
    • But but but in the last book she DOESN'T have blood lust because she was turned by her own will!
      • Which is still stupid because you can't tell me in the thousands of years there have been vampires Bella is the ONLY one who changed by her own choice.
      • Hell, even Ann Rice's vampires still hunger even if they're turned of their own choice, and they have a ton more reasons NOT to choose vampirism.
  • Bella is constantly getting knocked out, fainting, or becoming too tired to stand under her own power. If all else fails, she gets all dizzy, whether it's from blood, a shock, Edward's dazzliness, or completely random. As much as it amuses me to think that the reason for the near-constant headspin in Twilight was she was completely stoned the whole time and never mentioned it, that the heroine is so pathetic she needs her big strong love interests to carry her around all the time, in a modern, super-popular book and ship... That's quite unnerving.
    • Totally agreed. Also, I am so making a "Bella is stoned" WMG now.
  • Renesmee has the exact opposite of her parents' powers. If it is genetic like that, how in holy hell did she get the OPPOSITE? Also, sunlight shines through clouds. The vampires should look like they are perpetually covered in glitter.
  • Bella sexes an ICE-COLD MARBLE STATUE. And LIKES it. What kind of girl sticks a popsicle up hers and finds it hot? Also, "when I fell asleep, I had a nightmare"?? How did that paragraph ever make it into print?
    • Not as uncommon as you'd think. Had an ex who liked using cubes. Have come across many others who like iceplay since then.
    • This troper and a friend of his are actually considering going to the movie and standing outside the theater handing out popsicles labeled "Edward cullen dildo."
      • This troper would pay money just to see the rabid fangirls' reaction to that. Just remember, don't fall into the "Double Standard" pit if they attack you. Which they most probably will.
      • Are you going to add sparkles to the popsicles?
      • ... Actually, that sounds like an excellent idea.
      • ...And that folks, is what we call Nightmare Fuel.
      • I'm thinking of another king of Fuel...
      • If you haven't yet and still plan on doing it, we beg you, give us a YouTube link of the results. (/Kefkalaugh)
      • It exists. *shudder*
  • If Bella falls in love with Jacob, and Bella is a Mary Sue, and Jacob is named after S Meyer´s brother, then...
    • Ewwwww.
    • Also, if Jacob was in love with Bella because he was destined to love her daughter, what would have happened if Bella got with Jacob...?
      • Some hot MILF action, I'm guessing.
      • Given how everyone hates Edward, the logical answer is: the series would be much better.
    • What about the fact that she also named Leah the werewolf after one of her sisters? Leah, the one who is basically painted as a shrewish harpy and who the other wolves pretty much find annoying at best for daring to be upset that her fiance was essentially brainwashed into forever loving her cousin. This troper would personally be offended if a sibling used her name for a character like that. Does Meyer not like that sister or something?
      • Oh, Oh! Heidi, a Volturi member who dressed like a prostitute to bring in food for Aro and the rest, was also named after a sister. Which may not be so bad unless you consider the fact that Meyer is Mormon, and comes from a Mormon family, therefore it is likely that Heidi-the-not-vampire is also Mormon.
      • On the other hand, Smeyer's got a brother, Seth. You know, Seth? The webmaster for her website and the only sibling she brought with her to the movie premiere? Yeah, that one. She not only named Seth Clearwater, the cheerful, overly-friendly yet hilariously sarcastic werewolf who serves as the voice of reason that nobody listens to and the one that even some anti-fans like-basically, he is debatably the coolest character in the book-after her brother, but also named one of her SONS after the guy. Any bets on which sibling is her favorite?
      • And apparently she also used the names of her sister Emily and brother Paul. The character Emily is a submissive and scarred girl who only serves her fiance which this Troper would again consider insulting if it were her but given how most of the female characters in the series behave, she's probably considered to be displaying "good" behavior. Paul is depicted as the most violent member of the werewolf pack, getting into a fight with Jacob after trying to attack Bella. This Troper is seriously concerned and curious as to how Meyer feels about her siblings...
  • This troper has truly grown to fear the fanbase of Twilight. And this troper was part of the Avatar The Last Airbender fanbase. Here are just a few examples that she believes broke her brain...
  • Edward gives up way too quick in New Moon. Rather than confirm Bella's death, he just goes "Oh well, time to die." And runs off to Italy after learning through hearsay that she jumped off a cliff and that there was a funeral. Besides that, death is an escape, and if Bella died through his stupidity in ditching her, he should have lived out the remainder of his immortal life, suffering for all of it.
    • I know! He didn't think to actually talk to Charlie or Renee before committing suicide? He didn't think maybe someone other than one random guy who answered the phone would know what was going on? He knows Rosalie hates Bella; it never occurred to him to check her mind and see she wasn't absolutely sure Bella had died?
  • It just bugs me that Sparklepires are ostensibly Vampires. If the author had attached this particular grab-bag of traits onto any other mythical creature, it wouldn't bug me so much.
    • So you'd be okay with sparkly werewolves?
      • Well... at least werewolves are traditionally supposed to be bathed in the light of a full moon. A werewolf that shimmers in the moonlight is at least a little less ridiculous than a vampire that shimmers in the sun. Not by much, granted, but still...
    • Maybe angels or golems or homonculi made of diamonds would be better. The world's most expensive golems.
    • Sparklethulhu. He rises from Ry'leh when the stars are fabulous.
      • This troper would pay good money to see that.
      • This troper would pay bad money to see that.
      • "The Thing cannot be described - there is no language for such abysms of shrieking and immemorial lunacy, such eldritch contradictions of all matter, force, and cosmic order. A mountain walked or stumbled. The Thing of the idols, the green, sticky spawn of the stars, had awaked to claim his own. Then the sun struck him, and he burst into a shining rainbow of bright light. I noticed then that his eyes, which I had thought before were a madness-inducing swirl of darkness from beyond space, were actually a beautiful amber color. 'No', I thought, 'this perfect, beautiful doom creature can't be meant for a simple girl like me...'"
      • Troper who wrote that, please marry me. Together we'll make beautiful parodies that offend fangirls worldwide.
    • Sparkly genies? Sparkly fairies? Sparkly Yetis? Sparkly elves? Sparkly dragons? Shiny Pokemon(they sparkle)? Sparkly lepruchauns?
    • Sparkle Claus rides on his Sparkledeer every December 25th to deliver Mary Suedom to all the good boys and girls who pursue unorthodox relationships that borderline on abuse and frequently involve stalking. He's also known to deliver wall bangers to anyone who actually thinks about what they just read.
  • It also bugs me that Twilight fans aren't bothered by Bella's traumatic C-Section. Her Werewolf ex vampire husband bites through her skin to deliver her spawn and this doesn't creep them out.
    • Actually, a small survey that asked a sample of twihards, and a sample of haters, why they like/dislike the books, showed what the majority of twihards who took the survey didn't like about the books was the birth scene.
    • This troper is more interested in seeing how they adapt that for the movies and keep it PG.
      • Who says they are gonna keep it PG? Surely someone making a movie series about vampires and werewolves wouldn't be stupid enough to market it to a child audience, right? Right?
    • This troper is more interested in seeing if they realize how nuts the fans are, and get so paranoid about losing them that they just make the last few movies pure R rated Gorn.
    • Unfortunately, that has happened before.
  • Besides the vastly undeserved popularity for such a crappy story, the thing that bothers me most about Twilight is the Squick factor of the fact that Bella essentially engages in necrophelia. And, this being Twilight, it is of course deemed "romantic."
    • I insist, who's to say Meyer vampires are even undead to begin with?
    • Well, that is the main problem, isn't it? Twilight's vampires forget that they're undead. You can't just ignore the basics of vampire lore because it's gross; their rules and weaknesses are a symbolic price to pay for immortality. When vampires are chaotic good flying bricks with no negative aspects whatsoever, the kind of person who would choose such a life has expanded from magnificent bastards to damn near everyone.
      • Especially when apparently choosing to be turned nullifies the hunger for human blood and thus you get immortality, godlike beauty, and superpowers with the only disadvantages of never seeing your deceased loved ones again and having your favorite pizza taste like dirt.
      • And your loved ones could just choose to be turned and then no one would have a problem anymore.
      • Yes, its like genies without the slavery disadvantage or any weakness to anything. The disadvantages exist to create balance between positive and negative so they don't become perfect Mary Sues. Just because its romance doesn't mean she needed to throw gross basics of vampire lore in the garbage. In fact, romance is done better when the magical creatures aren't perfect Sues. Fiction does need conflict.
  • It just bugs me how Bella is willing to risk her life and totally diss her friends and family for Edward because she loves him that epically much... and yet all she can talk about how attractive he LOOKS. It feels like that's the only reason she likes him at all. And she's willing to risk her life for him? Shallow, much?
    • He's hot and she's tasty. It's true love.
    • Someone should totally do a comparison of how many times she praises his physical looks versus his physical skills (strength, speed, etc.) versus his emotional skills (kindness, hobbies, etc.). I bet the first two will be a bit higher.
    • Try the same thing with Edward. It might even be a shallower love than Romeo and Juliet who, if you'll remember, got married just for the sex and killed themselves because the sex was gone.
      • Even worse, I mean at least in Romeo and Juliet Juliet was torn between love for her husband and love for her cousin and family. Plus, Juliet never strings Paris along while clearly prefering Romeo.
  • Rosalie's human family were comfortably middle-class in the Depression apparently because her father was a banker. And she was supposed to marry the filthy rich bank owner's son. A rich bank owner, in the Depression. This troper thinks 'bank' must be a euphemism for 'organized crime syndicate'.
    • That might actually be a symptom of Meyerism. Stephenie Meyer seems to have forgotten that the Depression was caused by the failure of the banks. So the bankers should have been the miserably poor ones.
  • It Just Bugs Me a lot that they've cast Jackson Rathbone (Jasper in The Movie) as the live-action Sokka. Must this crapfest invade everything that is good in this world?!?
    • So just because an actor was in Twilight, he's not allowed to play a role in anything better? Sheesh!
      • I think it has to do more with the fact that Sokka is Inuit and pretty damn dark and Rathbone is a pale white kid.
      • Also his quote that all he'd have to do is get a tan and a ponytail to look the part ticked off just a few fans.
    • Adaptation Decay. The Air Nation and the Water Nation are white, and the Fire Nation are Indian/Iranian/Afghan/Iraqi. I'm guessing the Earth Nation will be the token Asians.
      • You mean token east Asians...
    • Blame M Night Shyamalan for his increasingly crappy movies. I hope, for the love of God I hope this so badly, that he doesn't try to insert one of his trademark twist endings into the movie.
  • In the movie, when Bella is in the hospital, why is it that in all the closeups the air tube is in front of her eyes, but otherwise it's nowhere near them? Also, why does it shift so much while she's talking with Edward?
  • If long hair equals shaggy werewolf, does that mean if one of them goes bald, we have a hairless werewolf?
    • Indeed, Meyer werewolf are as different from regular werewolves as Meyer vampires are from regular vampire.
      • Except she even said that they weren't werewolves. The Volturi had seen real werewolves; the "spirit wolves" are something different. This troper actually started a fanfic where they met another such tribe with a different spirit animal.
    • I've never read these books, but the werewolves are Native American, right? I've read that Native Americans tend to be very resistant to baldness, so that issue probably doesn't come up much.
    • By this logic, having your hair in a mohawk means your werewolf form would have hair like a poodle. Werepoodle!
      • I get the picture in my head of a werespinosaurus◊.
  • If Jacob imprinted on Nessie before she was born (by imprinting on the egg) shouldn't he have gotten more attached to Edward too since his sperm is half of Nessie(therefore, Jacob would have to imprint on the sperm as well)?
    • As the troper who made the WMG entry he thinks you're referring to, he's thinking that—since women are born with every egg they'll ever carry, while men constantly produce new sperm (also, I'm still not sure exactly how vampire sperm production works. Is it like a normal male's?)—coupled with the fact that, during the last half of "New Moon" and most of "Breaking Dawn" Edward did become closer to Jacob (at least getting to an easy indifference) leads him to believe that his theory is still correct.
    • Wouldn't that mean that the werewolf must imprint on not only the love interest, but her parents too?
      • Talk to the anti-abortionists. "Imprinted on her before she was born" =/= "imprinted on her before she was conceived". In no way was it implied that Jacob's previous attraction to Bella was caused by the imprinting, merely his inability to leave during the pregnancy despite outwardly abhorring the idea of that baby.
  • I haven't read the books, only seen the movie, but how is Bella supposed to explain away the bite marks on her arm as the result of falling through a window?
    • Windows have teeth. Just like "treasure chests"
    • Because they're hard to see. It's also more plausible to get a scar from several shards of glass that just happens to look like a bite mark then to have a bite mark that leaves a permanent scar.
  • More to the point, how do you show up at a hospital with a girl who's obviously been banged up ridiculously bad and tell them she fell down the stairs without getting at least a little guff?
    Edward:"Oh, hi! This bruised and battered pile of flesh here fell down the stairs and got hurt. Also? I'm her boyfriend."
    Doctor:"Uuuurr.... D'okay!"
    • Because by the time Bella shows up at the hospital there are several witnesses willing to claim she fell down two flights of stairs and a window. There's also the evidence that Alice manufactured and Bella's mother's confirmation about her daughter's clumsiness.
    • If you ask me, beating Bella wouldn't have been ridiculously out-of-character for the man who stalked her and would watch her sleep. AND who destroyed her car so she couldn't see friends he didn't like, AND who had her kidnapped to "keep her safe".
      • Who cares? If I was her mother, I'd be up in arms that Bella was upset enough by Edward to fall through a window.
  • If I was on a honeymoon, I'd pack condoms. Is Alice really naive or just stupid? Who the hell packs tampons but not condoms for a honeymoon?! That just displays a frightening lack of common sense (vampiric STD's, anyone? Human STD's? Thinking with your brain and not your genitals?) and it ruined the entire New Moon for me.
    • Two virgins probably aren't really at risk for spreading ST Ds. As for birth control - that's not something they even knew they had to worry about.
      • There is still a risk of spreading something like a zootonic/species-crossing disease, which is asymptomatic or beneficial in one but not the other.
      • Not to mention, to their knowledge, all vampiric bodily fluids are venomous. A condom would just be comon sense.
      • Well, Tanya and her coven sleep around with human men with no ill effects, so they were probably just assuming it'd be the same for a male vampire and human female.
      • Which is silly, because by their assumptions so far, ALL of Edwards bodily fluids were venomous. That's what I thought initially: that Alice should've packed condoms because being shot full of venomous semen is a) a revolting way to be turned and b) a revolting way to conclude your first sexual experience.
  • Where did the Cullens get the blood bank with human blood from? If they are "vegetarians", why on Earth did they suddenly sacrifice all of their principles and morals?
    • Carlisle works at a hospital. Chances are he borrowed it without anyone knowing or he told the hospital Bella was quarantined and he needed it.
      • So he stole somebody's blood? Way to be a fair and compassionate doctor there, Sparkleson Sr. Hope the original donor doesn't mind it's going to self-destructive idiot and not going to a cancer kid.
      • There's a point past which blood becomes useless for transplants but possibly not for vampire food, so if the blood was going to be discarded anyway his taking it wouldn't harm anyone.
    • What the hell are you talking about?
      • We don't know how long blood is "good" for vampires but we do know that it can never last more than a month and be transfusable material for humans. So feasibly, he could offer to discard of the blood himself. Which wouldn't at all get suspicious after years of doing this.
  • I realize that the fans are bad, but what is it with people gathering around to talk all about how they hate a series and its fans just for being its fans? (To understand what I mean, you have to look at some of the posts over at here, especially this)
    • Apparently you haven't met furries at all. You'll be surprised how only the sillier furries (who are looked down upon by the fandom itself) are the only ones crying.
    • Yeah, but it's not like a large part of the hatebase doesn't go Serious Business and say "All Twilight fans are morons". If anything, this page alone is proof that the haters can be just as obsessive, if not worse. Twilight didn't destroy or corrupt literature. Stephenie Meyer didn't kill your father or rape your child.
    • No she just killed my faith in the free market (by the fact that people like and buy this crap) and raped my favorite creatures in all of folklore.
    • You are right how many take it too far with the broad condemning of all fans as morons (have some friends to who like it and while I think they're mental but they know it's just a silly romance novel. Plus I love the Warhammer 40000 Horus Heresy novels, so I'm not exactly innocent of GuiltyPleasures). But saying the haters are worse is really stretching it. At most, they grumble and act like jerks. The main reason people can't stand the books is many of the fans take it really, really seriously in the first place, holding up Edward as a paragon of love and romance, and profess Bella and Edward's love is the thing of ages. Just read what Robert Pattinson had to put up with, for starters. So, while Ms. Meyer did not kill/rape anyone, the fans may very well do so if you dare insult Edward in their presence. They take fan-crazy to new levels.
    • Some Fan Haters wish death and rape on Stephenie Meyer. Not her characters, but SMeyer *herself*. Look below and tell me that's not just as batshit.
    • Rape is wrong in all instances. DO YOU HEAR THAT SLASH FIC WRITERS? And death is a little extreme. I personally hops for an aphasia (split) in Broca's area, which is the area of the brain responsible for the ability to produce language. Can't write a book if your mind can't produce language.
    • That is truly pathetic (the people wishing that on Ms. Meyer, that is), and even though I'm 99% sure it's just a twisted example of an Internet Tough Guy, also a little unsettling, so you're right there. Still, considering what some of the Fans did re: Robert Pattinson, and some of the actual, physical violence that has been visited upon critics of the books (admitted, a lot of which I'm sure is either embellished or outright made up, but not all), no I don't think it's just as batshit. Damn close though.
    • I think the main reason Twilight has attracted such a hatedom is because of people who heard "vampire story" and thought they'd get a fantasy fix. But I suspect (I haven't actually read it or seen the movie, thank God) that Twilight is not so much a vampire story as it is a romance novel that happens to have supernatural elements. Read that way, both the book's crappiness and its obsessive popularity become much more comprehensible. (Sure, it may be a crappy story laden with purple prose, but how different is that from most romance novels, really?) Because some of the people who picked up the book expected Anne Rice and didn't get it, they felt a little betrayed and flocked to the Internet to complain that it was a crappy book, and Twilight fans aren't used to anything they've loved becoming really critically examined at all.
      • I hate romance novels. I shouted down Romeo and Juliet's love when I was a freshmen. Twilight is just the worst of the romance novels because it makes pretense of being an important life lesson for children everywhere to learn. Most romance novelists at least understand that all they're doing is writing a sex fantasy that will allow unhappy housewives to live vicariously through the characters in the book. Meyer sees herself as being a visionary of love.
      • The reason I suppose is that most anTwis (including myself) believe Twilight fans don't realize the problems with the book— such as the fact that everyone loves Bella, Bella hates everyone who doesn't sparkle, Edward shows numerous traits of an abusive boyfriend, and none of their flaws do more than further the 'romance,' all danger created by the flaws in others. Most people who want to be writers when they grow up dislike Twilight because, basically, it's a very cliched story that fails on every basic standard of writing outside of grammar and spelling.
      • EXACTLY! It's always been this troper's dream to be a writer of fiction but after hearing that a novel such as Twilight was heralded as "literature," I practically had a Heroic BSOD on the spot.
      • Yet this Troper's ENGLISH teacher loves the book.
      • All of this troper's English professors—my major, yo—at university hate it with a passion.
      • It's the same with my fellow Lit majors. A Nd it doesn't stop there. Drama/theater, several language majors, and even a good portion of art majors dislike it.
      • My former Grammar teacher is obsessed with Twilight and abandoned Harry Potter for it.
    • There's three reasons: first, is that it's generally regarded as actual bad writing, and should most certainly not be praised or considered an example of brilliant work of art like it is now; in that sense, it's like The Day After Tomorrow is to Scientists, only where there's a much larger portion of people saying it's the best thing ever made of it's type. The second thing is that the die-hard fans all fall into a particular demographic, which can indeed be generalised easily. The third thing is that since every fan thinks the book is good, it implies... 'something' about the fans. The portion of people who were expecting a Buffy-esque book isn't even worth consideration, it's so small; it's mostly just a point put by fans who can't consider why people consider a book filled with Mary Sues to be a bad thing.
      • Not every fan thinks it is good. Most of my fan-friends think it's trash but love it for the pure fluff and mindlessness of it. I like it myself as an Anti because it's fun to think of A Us where it doesn't suck in so many, many ways.
      • That's not a fan, that's a reader. The difference is that the fans are going to fight against anyone calling it bad while the readers merely enjoy it as more of a guilty pleasure type book.
    • How about the fact (as mentioned in other places on this page) that this book TELLS GIRLS THAT STALKING IS ROMANTIC!!!!! How many women are going to end up in damaged relationships, abused, possibly beaten to death all because they fell in love with the paperback shite that Stephenie Meyer took?
    • The same ones that ended on a abusive relationship for the last century? I think the books are terrible but I think is exaggerated to think that all the women/girls that likes then are going to end up on abusive relationships. Is like the guy that killed his girlfriend and drank her blood, over Anne Rice's Interview with the vampire movie. He was a nutjob already the book was just an excuse, the same with any girl/woman that decides that stalking is love works on the Real Life...And I think for all the sexism the book has is also sexist to think that women are so mentally unstable that just because they read a book they are going to do exactly what the book said, specially if is damaging to them. I mean is like saying every male that read The Catcher in the Rye will end up killing someone.
  • So few of the fans are creative with their Shipping. Most of the people on Team Edward think Team JACOB is out there. They'd probably pass out if they read the Crack Pairing page, and actually knew characters beyond the Twilight series.
  • Team Edward here, love crackpairing, maybe passing out just out of the LULZ.
    • When you have a series where most of the choices are between necrophilia and bestiality, there just doesn't seem much of a point to it.
    • Also, love in Twilight tends to involve destined soulmates. Twitards believe in that. Therefore, how can they crack pair if everyone is destined for each other and (according to SM and her 'tard army) will get together with their destined other? And, aren't some Canon pairings kinda cracky too? Jacob/Reneesmee and Quil/Claire seem quite crazy to me.
      • And that's what bugs me. As long as he keeps his spirit wolf form, Jacob won't age past early adulthood and is essentially just as immortal as a vampire (well, okay, still easier to kill, but he could potentially live a long time). The age difference between Jacob and Renesmee is about 18 years or so. The age difference between Edward and Bella is five times that. Excuse me, what pairing is Squicky?
      • THE ONE THAT INVOLVES A NEWBORN.
      • Here are some Crack Pairings involving Twilight characters for your enjoyment:link
    • There is way too little slash in Twilight circles. Alice/Bella is practically canon and the inherent nature of vamps make the very act of turning seem like sex.
  • Leah. There's a perfectly explainable reason for why her period stops. Like all the other werewolves, she stopped aging when she became a werewolf. She just stopped at a point in her cycle when she's not menstrual. If she's stuck ovulating (hopefully not since the werewolves spend a lot of time using wolf instincts over human) or if she stops shifting long enough, she'll start to age again and be able to get pregnant. But Meyer never mentions this. The characters should have realized this once it clicked that male vampires could procreate. It would have made Leah much less bitter and take away some of the Unfortunate Implications of the only female werewolf being a dead end genetically.
    • My guess is Meyer didn't do the research again, has sexist opinions, didn't want any female to be powerful enough to outrank Bella and the vampires by being able to bear children—one of the only things female vampires cannot do—and just doesn't think about her own series.
  • What is it about this book that gets the fans so violent? I know other fandoms like Harry Potter's or Naruto's can get pretty crazy but I've never heard of any members of those fandoms actually attacking people in real life. I've read horror stories about Twitards punching, kicking, throwing things, and even threatening to KILL people just because they don't goddamn like a crappy book! What in the world lurks behind all that Purple Prose makes these people degenerate into total nutjobs?
    • It's probably because by criticizing it, people are intruding on the rabid fans' sexual fantasy.
    • It's because many Twilight fans are teenage girls, and teenage girls are— get this— hormonal and passionate. There are many of them. They know they are supported. They're the Twilight-loving moral majority, and "not liking it" is immediately associated with rabid, hateful idiots who dislike it because it isn't Buffy. Much like how liking Twilight for your own guilty pleasures reasons immediately associates you, in the mind of a Twi-hater, with someone who'd gouge a girl's eye out for NOT LOVING EDWARD ENOUGH.
    • After hearing about some of the things Twilight fans have done, I am convinced that the recent "Revenge of the Catgirls" storyline in Something Positive was written entirely with Twilight fans in mind.
  • Edward is not perfect. Yes, Bella describes and sees him as perfect- but that's the point. She's the narrator and she's in love with him, and she's an extremely subjective one too.
    • Which would be true, had it been descriptions only. Nearly everything he does in the book is perfect too.
      • Edward is creepy and abusive, which kind of makes him imperfect. All right, so Meyer/Bella doesn't seem to notice this, but Bella does get pissed at him when he wrecks her car and has Alice kidnap her to prevent her from seeing Jacob (which he later admits was wrong) and when he refuses to have sex with her. And dumping her in New Moon was (from Meyer/Bella's POV) a huge mistake. Yet, it's true she has no problem with the stalking though.
  • There's something that really bugs me.... How come that everyone who claims to hate these series knows every minor detail of everything written in each of the books.... I guess you can't spell Fan Haters without Fan.
    • Wanna know what else you can't spell Fan Hater without? HATE.
    • Twilight is Snark Bait. It's Bile Fascination , silly. We read the books because it has so much to make fun of. Plus, we can use it as a shining example of HORRIBLE writing.
    • Cleolinda's Twilight recaps (who herself views them as hilariously cracky Guilty Pleasures. Also, most of the "minor details" are usually the bizarre scenes that spread around via the "Horrify The Twilight Noob" game (which often include excerpts).
    • It gives us more fuel for bitching about them. Which is fun. After all, they made a whole show about it. Plus, sometimes it's just awe-inspiring to find a ridiculously bad piece of work and watch or read all of it, just to gape that yes, something can really be screwed up that bad. For god's sake, why do so many people read My Immortal?
    • Also, every Twilight fan who deals with an Anti screams 'HAVE YOU EVEN READ IT!?!?! YOU'LL GET IT IF YOU DO!" Once you have read it and can give a more in-depth analysis of why it makes all fans of decent literature be in a state of wailing and gnashing their teeth, their response is similar to yours— "Well if you read so much of it, you MUST have liked it!"
    • This Anti read it for academic research purposes. I don't know every 'minor detail' of the series but I'm familiar enough with it to detail why I find it odious. Honestly though, it would hardly be fair to criticise a series unless you were at least somewhat familiar with it. Plus, you've got to remember, a lot of antis are former fans.
    • This troper read the first book (it was okay, not great), the second book (hated it with a passion), skipped the third book (still hasn't read it), and then read the fourth book (just to see how it ended). This troper doesn't know every little detail, but at least she feels like she has a valid excuse for not liking the book- she read them! (Except for the third one.)
  • This isn't so much a JBM about the books, numerous as their problems are, but rather with this page, ie., why all the CAPS-LOCK RAGE? I only ask because Harry's wondering when he's going to get it back.
    • Because this series appears to be where CAPLOCK COMM stupidity and rabid frothing passion on both sides of the argument intersect.
    • I do it because I don't know how to emphasis without using asterisks and asterisks do funny things to the page.
  • Does anyone other than me find it ironic that when you bring up this page, ads that say "Meet Twilight fans just like you!" pop up when this page seems to be solely inhabited by anTwis and Guilty Addicts?
  • It bugs me that lots of Fan Haters are proud to wish death and rape and torture on Stephenie Meyer, bash Mormonism as a whole, area bunch of elitists... and expect people to bow to them and say "U R SO KEWL AND 3DGY". Or something. Really, guys, for all the whining about rabid fans and your martyr complex, you're just as bad, if not worse.
    • Would you please provide a link to some examples? I'm just getting tired of getting told about these Fan Haters who do that, clicking on the links thinking they're examples, only to end up at a page which is just some person complaining about these people some more, without providing linkage to examples themselves, either. Especially since I just removed the bit that actually did promise examples on the main page, when it was really just more people complaining about Fan Haters. I certainly believe these Fan Haters could exist, but it's specifically the way people complaining about them only link to more people complaining about them that's making me start to wonder.
    • Well, you don't seem to talk to a lot of Haters, because everyone Hater that I've ever met (Including friends and myself, who were all former fans) hates Twilight itself for the bad messages, not the Fans.
      • Actually the whiny troper who started this topic up there has about half a point. I have encountered many people who hate Twilight more for the fans than for the book. However, these people usually just go about baiting fangirls into attacking so they can post the story and create a self perpetuating cycle. I've never seen a single instance of people wishing death or rape, badmouthing the entire Mormon religion (at least, not because of Twilight), and bashing for others approval. Most people bash for amusement, badmouth Mormons because it often seems like a strange religion, and no ant fan is rabid enough to go to the extreme of wishing death on the creator. Without Ms. Meyer and her terrible books, what would I have to complain about on a boring Tuesday afternoon?
    • For all the talk about the PSYCHO VIOLENT CRAAAZY FANGIRLS, all the fans I've met in real life seem like...normal people. Maybe it's just when you get them in groups? However, I have seriously offended people on this very site by insinuating Twilight isn't quite as bad as people say, to the point where they seriously freaked out on me.
    • Don't know about random antis across the internet, but I have never seen anyone on Twilight Sucks.com, the anti-Twilight HQ, say or do anything close to that. And, btw, if you want proof the fandom is crazy, do the logical thing and ask one of the people working in a bookstore. Even in Australia they're all like "Oh, god yes," and we haven't got it as bad as the US here. Or, if you're outside the US, you probably haven't got it as bad as them, 'kay?
      • My best friend works at a bookstore and while she hates the actual books with a passion, she hasn't encountered any problems with the people who buy them. And yes, we're in the US.
      • Pffft. This Chilean Troper has a friend who works in a popular bookstore and says the Twilight fans she knows are, well, normal. As much, they brought lots of coins when it was their turn to purchase the books when they went on sale here. No biting, no hysteria, no horribly rabid and aggressive fangirls, etc. I live near to a theater and never saw too many weird things coming from the girls who went to watch the movie there. Twilight fans aren't necessarily a bunch of nutjobs, unlike the Fan Haters (several of them acting pretty much psycho at the mere mention of Twilight) claim.
      • This Troper prefers to go along with her friend in saying she's 'Not a hater, but certainly not a lover'. Both fans and haters have their rabids, unfortunately. Thankfully, every Twilight fan I know is sane. But you have to admit, the stuff Patterson [is that right?] relates certainly does inspire some 'what the hell?' toward fans. And yeah, Harry really wants his caps rage back, leiknaoplz.
      • Frankly, I'm getting kind of sick of the "Antis are just as bad," crap. Yes, some Antis do go too far. Yes, not every Twilight fan is a nutter, I know and am friends with some very nice ones. But until someone presents me with something like this, the fanbase still has a highly unusual amount of crazy and the Antis as a whole are nowhere near as bad, quite simply because they don't try to kill people over the matter.
      • I could completely make up a farfetched story and post it on that forum and everyone would believe me because it's what they want to hear. I suspect that's what the people who only posted there once or twice actually did. I'm sure many of those are true, but there's no proof of any of it. If wikipedia is unreliable, so is that forum.
      • And I'm fully aware of that. I also think that some of those would have been made up. But since we agree many of them are for real, the point still stands.
    • This Troper is an anti, and has yet to meet another anti that acts anything like that. She has, however, met many a fangirl wishing death and miscarriage on someone for not liking the books.
      • I've been told that I'll never know true love by a friend after I told her Twilight sucked. I countered with a sucker punch of "I'm sorry, I'm just so jealous of Edward and Bella's love," which actually caused a surprising amount of girls to start talking about how deep and complex I was. When I revealed I was lying, I got one death threat but most just said that I was too ashamed to admit my true feelings.
      • A Mormon friend once told me that she found her little sister (a kid around 10 years old) crying. She asked her why and the kid told her something by the lines of "I was told at school that I was a freak because I'm a Mormon and the Twilight author is, too!". So for all the Twihaters bitch about how victimised they are, having some of them bully a little girl because of Twilight makes them no better than the Twitards they scream against.
      • In one of the TL forums I bellong we recently recieved an attack in wich a "funny" anti posted a picture of a threesome of old guys. This is a forum visited by teen girls.
      • Let's not forget the time Fandom Secrets had to pull one anti-Twilight secret where some Twihater claimed that she had been thrown in jail for beating the shit out of a fangirl, yet didn't regret hitting the kid.
  • Meyer suggested Wuthering Heights to the Twilight Moms book club... and then started thesetopics. I can't make it through the whole topic without wanting to smash something, as there are a couple of dissenters, but mostly, it's decided it sucks because it's not a nice love story, and the characters are horrible people. They're meant to be horrible! It wasn't supposed to be nice! Their love is destructive to them and everything around them, that was the whole point! It's romance presented as a gothic horror story! And furthermARRRRRRRGGGHHH NEEEEEEEEEERD RAAAAAAAAAGE! I mean, seriously.
    • Having calmed down a bit, this troper now suspects that part of the reason they dislike it is because it deconstructs the Twilight-y notion that love is always a good thing and that it will always turn out well, instead showing mutual love causing a whole lot of pain for absolutely everyone involved.
      • Which doesn't make it any less bad, of course. BTW: is Meyer that "lisa" user?
    • I agree that they probably didn't see Wuthering Heights in the right context. "It's an old classic so it's gotta be really happy romantic." It is a classic but not for that reason. Like you stated, it's really a classic because it was a romance written as a twisted up horror story. I can't remember where I read it (it might have been Cleolinda) but someone wrote that the best way to read Wuthering Heights is more like a hate story rather than a love story. And I completely agree.
      • Edward himself says that in Eclipse, on page 28. "It isn't a love story, it's a hate story."
      • So... Meyer understands the basic premise of Wuthering Heights, and merely cannot comprehend that someone would write a romance as a bad thing? I wonder how she'd react if she found out Romeo and Juliet was a satire? That would be an entertaining meltdown.
  • So in New Moon, Jasper almost bites Bella. Then when all the Cullens leave Forks, he goes off to college. Alone. Who thought this was a good idea? Bella was his wife's friend, his brother/friend's girlfriend, and was predicted to join their family in the future. He had a good reason to not kill her and drink her blood and yet he still attempted it. Random college students would not fall under the same reasoning. What's preventing him from catching a whiff one day and slaughtering his Introduction to Biology class?
    • Meyer has said before that she thinks the Cullens have "fallen off the wagon," quite a few times, because not eating people is hard, you know? So, given that they've killed people many times before and still taken no preventive measures, I suspect they simply don't care enough. That would certainly fit with the "normal humans suck except for Special Snowflake Bella," attitude of the books.
SEE, if I was a immortal super person who salivated like Pavlov's dog at the mere scent of human blood, the last thing I'd want to do is send anyone of my kind out into a helpless group of them alone. That's just me, of course.
  • My WMG is that the Cullen vampires really just hate humans and the only reason they don't eat them is because they like being superior and showing off.
  • Just like a real vegetarian! Just kidding vegetarians, I know that you don't all act superior. Vegans, however, are another story.
  • It bugs me that everyone I meet in real life likes the name Renesmee. And not just brain dead teenage girls, but one of my best friends who we traded in depth theories about Deathly Hallows and laughed our butts off at Albus Severus. But Reneesme is somehow better than that? Is there a lobotomy that I missed?
    • You're not alone. Those of us who know of the stupid name are few and our number are dwindling, but we must hold on for the good of our children. There is no way in hell I'm going to let my child marry a girl named Reneesme.
  • Excuse me, was anyone else bothered by how accepting the Cullens were of vampires that were not vegetarians, you know, the ones that murdered humans and drank their blood? Or their casual, try not to fall of the wagon approach to themselves? And they never even attempt to justify it; I was hoping that one of them would at least say it was a natural predator-prey relationship, you can't blame the cat for eating the mouse, etc. Which of course still fails to justify the casual acceptance of murdering sentient creatures. But then again, the vampires are sparkly...
    • Vampire's are SUPPOSED to feed off humans. The very fact that Vampires were made able to feed off animals is Meyer attempting to address the issue and avert it, because murdering and feeding off of sentient life (which is just horrible, clearly) must be avoided, even if that requires a hit to mythology of the very creatures...
    • I guess the parallel would be a human who is an actual vegetarian because s/he thinks killing animals is wrong, or a pro-life person who thinks abortion is murder. Not all of these people (though there are many exceptions) go around trying to force these beliefs on others, and people generally respect them for it, even though it seems a little weird when you think of them as seeing murder in their life and not trying to stop it. Many such people assume (perhaps correctly) that imposing it on others won't change them, and try other routes, which might be how the Cullens see it.
      • If a cow could tell me in no uncertain terms to not eat it, I'd drop my burger-loving ways.
    • What bothered me most about that was that in the first book, James and Co. were EVIL because they ate humans. But then in the last book, all the other vampires that ate people were portrayed as being nice people who just happen to have made a different life choice. It seems like the defining factor in evil-ness is not so much 'eating humans' as it is 'wanting to eat Bella'.
      • You have to remember the evil vampires were specifically mentioned as plain, so you're only bad if you're ugly and want to eat Bella.
  • This troper read Breaking Dawn because everyone at school was talking about it. Then she thought, "OK, not bad. Why not read the others?" You see, I have a history of not reading the first book in a series, reading another, then reading the rest and loving it. I picked up Twilight, sat down and read it. skimmed most of it, so the next time I read it more thoroughly. Then I put the book down, looked at it and said, "This is the biggest heap of crap I've ever read in my life." I was just thinking, "What the fuck. This is shit. What is wrong with me? Or is it everyone else?" I talked to some of my friends, and they said it was sloppily written, uninteresting, unrealistic. The people who said that are the ones who know books and know how to analyse them. I am not the person to ask about that. But I was worrying I was losing my mind, because in my school, half the girls love Edward, the other half love Jacob. And there I was thinking, "God, Bella is a fuckwit." How can anyone be such a ditz and still be alive?
    • Amen. Sadly this is the truth: most girls will fall head over heels in love with a guy they think is perfect and turn a blind eye to all that happens to prove otherwise. It also happens to guys but less often because men as a gender usually prefer to be choosy in love and less choosy in sex while girls go vice versa.
    • Yeah, I agree completely. Bella really is the most annoying character. And it definitely would have been interesting to read Breaking Dawn first, as I believe it was the best of the four.
  • What I don't understand about the books' popularity and their reviews is how the language has passed as acceptable ; "Gah! I gasped" , "sorry, he apologised". How did that get published? It could have been written by a 14 year old.
    • My teachers hate it for that very reason. I would have failed Comp 1 if I had handed in that trash as a final draft.
      • What's worse is that Meyer has a degree in Literature from a respectable university. On the count of three..... One..... Two..... Three. WHAT THE FUCKING HELL??!?!?!??
    • Meyer obviously struck a nerve with this book, and the editor who let it pass clearly had a nose for where the money is: hysterical 13-16 year old girls, who don't give a rat's ass about how well-written a story is. Kudos to them for that.
      • It's like someone took a terrible fan fiction, spit polished it, rolled it in glitter and then said, "This is what a bestseller should look like!"
      • All my literary dreams are dying slowly and painfully.
    • Written by a fourteen-year-old? I'm gonna have to personally kill S Meyer for offending writers my age, then.
  • Alice and Bella have more chemistry than Bella and Edward. Just thought I'd mention something about the book
    • Meyer is a Mormon, and Mormons don't approve of lesbianism. Not gonna happen.
      • Doesn't change the fact that Alice is less abusive, cares for Bella for something other than her looks/smell, and is pretty awesome in her own right.
      • The Amazon vampires were implied to be lesbians, and they were the ones who taught Bella to use her powers and brought in the Deus Ex Machina at the end. Also, Mormons don't approve of premarital sex either, but Tanya's coven was still portrayed positively even though they're only "vegetarian" so that they can seduce human men, and Bella really has no problem with it all.
      • Frankly, there is so much implied in this book without Meyer even being aware of it that I'd be more willing to believe Meyer was completely oblivious to the Amazon Ho Yay.
  • Couldn't the relationship between Bella and Edward be equated to the relationship between a Fundamentalist Jack Chick-type Christian and God - ie., give up everything except slavish devotion to me while I threaten you, or I'll destroy you?
    • Make that a Fundamentalist Jack Chick-type God, and I'm sold. It's like people who take the "OMG OMG MARRIAGES ARE LIKE HOW GOD INTERACTS WITH PEOPLE, EXCEPT THE WOMAN IS THE LOWLY SINFUL AWFUL HUMAN AND THE MAN IS OMNISCIENT ALL-POWERFUL GOD" stance. And that just made this whole series one metric ton creepier and I hate you. Or love you. Whichever. (For the record, in a marriage, aren't both parties supposed to be equally devoted to each other? As in, Adam and Eve pre-fall getting along swimmingly and paying deference only to God? Guess we screwed that one up royally...)
      • Genesis 7.2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.
        Looks like they're folowing the biblical model to me.
      • Under the presumption that humans are also "clean" and so likely edible? Hmm. You intrigue me.
      • Well, as God disproves of cannibals, I think you're going to need a different verse.
    • There's a hilarious write-up from an actual Mormon which correlates Edward to the founder of Mormonism.
  • Sloppy writing, sick making heroine and wonderful piece of cardboard hero aside, my main beef with the first book- I'm NOT reading the others- is the severe lack of research into Carlisle's background. Apparently he's English and born in the 1640s, "at a time of religious upheaval". Does everyone see where this is going? There's the usual remarks about 'the rule of Cromwell' and Carlisle's father being an Anglican pastor who hunted witches, werewolves and other things that go bump in the night. Contrary to popular belief, the Protectorate lasted 1653-1659, not a vague period of some ten to twenty years (the last eight months being poor old Richard Cromwell's problem).Although they had a jolly good time persecuting Catholics and Puritans, witch-hunting never fell under the remit of your average Anglican clergy. Meyer seems to have been inspired by the detestable lawyer Matthew Hopkins, self-proclaimed Witchfinder General, who used the Civil War as a front for his activities. Not only did he snuff it after just three years (1644-1647), he operated solely in the eastern counties of England, not London (Cullen Sr's base). You can argue that this is an alternative world version but it makes no sense. It states Carlisle was 23 when he was 'changed'. Doesn't that mean they'd be running their scam after the Restoration? ... Oy, vey. She's obviously glutted on a Salem-inspired vision of Protectorate England where witchhunters ran around burning people and yanking mince pies from diners' mouths.
    • Still more support for this troper's theory that Carlisle is nowhere near the experienced übervamp he sets himself up as— he's likely lying about the age. Or Muraki.
    • The second option would be awesome. You, sir or madam, win an internet.
  • This. Abandon all faith in humanity's future, all ye who click here,◊ *HEADDESK* *HEADDESK* *BANG!*
    • I'm pretty sure whomever made that picture was just being sarcastic.
  • What kind of bloody stupid name is Edward for a vampire? It's an old man's name. I'm really not exaggerating- yesterday I sold a laptop to a seventy year old guy called Edward Cullen. On his debit card and everything. I hope he hasn't been pestered by marauding Twilight fans.
    • Edward is old. (Would you rather like to read suefic about Godric Gryffindor's daughter named Yazmyn? So totally not the old woman's name, right?)
      • Yes, I understand he's really over a hundred, but you'd think he'd at least have a nickname or something. How many supposedly seventeen year old guys insist on the full version of their name at all times?
      • What's wrong with Ed, especially since he calls Emmet Em and Jasper Jazz. A similar nickname is the least he can offer them for his horrible ones.
    • Old man's name? This troper's friend would beg to differ. And last time I checked, said friend was not over a hundred years old.
    • Mr. Elric would like to disagree with you. My problem is his last name is Cullen. The only Cullen I know is Peter Cullen, and the less I associate Optimus Prime with Twilight, the better.
    • There's also Charlie Cullen, angel of death Serial Killer (see WMG).
    • Old man's name? But what about Prince Edward?
    • I really like the name Edward and am pissed off with Twilight for ruining it.
      • Likewise, Bella ruined Bella (as in Bellatrix) for me.
      • And I'm angry that the the Devil ruined the name Lucifer, but you don't hear me complaining about it.
      • If you're not going to then, may I?
      • If the fact that a perfectly okay name got included in Twilight isn't bad, you've got this:
    Edward: Hi, my name's Edward.
    Twilight fan: OMG LOVE MEH!
  • This troper recalls a part in the books (most likely 1st) where Edward talks about how humans aren't supposed to be able to smell blood. Er... but this troper can. A little, anyway. Bella's description about it smelling like metal or iron or what have you... So Yeah.
    • On a related note, it bugs me that they make a big deal about her being able to smell blood, and the fact that it makes her ill, and then they barely do anything with it. I thought maybe we'd discover how it was significant in the last book, as we did with her resistance to Edward's mind reading and such, but it wasn't even mentioned.
    • That part made me put the book down. People can smell blood, especially as it dries (I believe anyway). But Meyer also didn't take into account menstrual blood. Now that stuff can be freaking disgusting. Bleh.
      • But it doesn't really smell like the blood that comes from your veins.
      • This troper has a diminished sense of smell. There isn't a lot I can smell, I can walk through a garbage heap and be fine, I can't smell the catbox or my babie's diapers, or many things other people can smell. But I can smell blood. Ever put a penny in your mouth? Blood smells like that tastes. (Other things I can smell most people can't include glass, aluminum, and cyanide)
      • Yes but it's the fact the menstrual blood is blood. She wrote that blood couldn't be smelled by human and didn't distinguish what type. And it could have included menstrual blood as well as blood from the rest of the body. (At least in that book. She could have said something in another book (or at some other point in time), Twilight is the only book in the series I read all the through. Plus, I admit, I'm taking the "Humans can't smell blood" thing to the absolute extreme).
      • Menstrual blood is not only blood—it has other stuff in it as well. But I have no problem smelling blood in general whatsoever. It indeed has sort of a metallic odor, which I can sense even in small quantities.
    • Humans can smell blood. You'd think Edward, the many-times doctor, would know this.
    • And did he never get a wound in his seventeen years as a human? Total Wall Banger.
    • Ever had a nosebleed? Yeah, pretty sure you can smell that.
  • Okay. Twilight Sucks. We all get it. I for one am sick of seeing the series rabidly insulted and snarked about in just about every trope. The fanbase may deserve all of it's bashing but the series itself is just crappy entertainment; nothing more. Why must everyone bring up it's obvious flaws and subtly say "this is the worst series ever"? Seems to me that when people bash something they don't like that is popular, it goes way beyond Complaining About Shows You Dont Like.
    • Well, the reason I insult Twilight (and mind you, I was a Fan a long time ago) is the horrific morals and messages it gives to the young and impressionable teenage girl fanbase. The series glorifies suicide, stalking, and abuse. It supports sexism because Bella never makes any choices by herself. Even becoming a vampire was decided by Edward. It supports child grooming and paedophilia. Imprinting is sexual in nature, because it's intended for reproduction. Child grooming is present because the young girls, like Nessie and Claire, are going to grow up thinking that they will end up marrying their werewolves. So this book makes things romantic that are truly disturbing and disgusting in reality. Myself and all of my (former fan) friends don't hate the fanbase, we hate Twilight.
    • The real reason is that the series has the general feel and chracterization of fanfiction; that when combined with how the fanbase is filled with crazed fangirls makes the series one huge, steaming, piece of Snark Bait. That and it's really fun to bash Twilight.
      • I've been there and done that before. But sometimes it seems to go beyond "having fun" and seems like just plain venomous hatred for something that the haters really shouldn't be wasting their time on.
      • I get happiness out of bashing it, so I don't consider it a waste of time. You can love it and I can hate it. I promise not to go looking for a fight if you won't. If the lack of good tropes annoys you, go and edit some yourself. I'm not going to do it, but true love tropes and such could use some examples, I bet.
    • If it was just a silly, ridiculous fantasy about vampires, this troper wouldn't care. What I do care about, and so do other fans, is what's stated above; the books have a sexist, creepy, and unhealthy relationship and promote it as romantic. Teenage girls are fed enough sexist and dangerous ideas as it is without this sort of book. You may think I'm over-reacting, but I've once saw someone on Cleo's Twilight snarkings saying how she actually dated a guy like Edward in the real world and he had a horrible impact on her life, and how girls should run from guys like him. When you have survivors of emotionally abuse relationships getting a sense of deja vu from Edward, it deserves all the bashing it gets.
      • Okay, so some people take Twilight hate very seriously. But I dislike Twilight on the grounds of it being a poorly-written series. I find the hate towards the series for "promoting bad relationships as romantic" no different from the hate towards Harry Potter for "promoting witchcraft as good" If something really popular seems to glorify something really bad, it will be seen as a threat apparently.
      • I concur. My main stumbling block is also that Twilight is very badly written. I am not much of a Potter fan either, but at least Rowling knows how to write readable sentences and present believable characters. Meyer can't write, so I am totally baffled by her success.
      • On the Twilight/Harry Potter comparism, let me break it down for you. Abusive relationships exist and are bad. I don't think witchcraft exists, and even if it did it, it wouldn't be bad unless the witches used it for bad things. Therefore, I hate Twilight, but like Harry Potter.
      • Let me break it to you witchcraft exist and catholics and christian things they are bad no matter the intentions. I love both Twilight and Harry Potter and the people I know that do witchcraft are on it long before HP books existed. I also have friends on really abusive relationships that hate/or never read Twilight books. I agree with the idea that by default everything that appeal to young people must be evil and damaging no matter what, according to some adults: Twilight/Harry Potter/video games...You name it.
      • Now, just a minute. Witchcraft in the real world is a religious practice, not the EEEEVVILLL Satanic black magic that the superstitious make it out to be. Wizardry as practiced the the Potterverse is not possible in our universe. Stalking definately is.
      • Hey I know that, my sister is into paganism. But fundamentalists Christians and Catholics conclude that the children are going to try to get to the closest thing to witchcraf they can get, just out of sympathy for the heroes on the HP saga, based on their own bias. In the same vein I had yet to meet a twilight fan that wants a man/woman to stalk them. They find it romantic/sexy/silly/stupid/plot point/non issue on Edward's part do to the context and the story. Its like someone taking serious all the "bite me" T-shirts. Hey, maybe some antis should try and bite some twihards, they will end in jail, no matter how much like Edward they look.
      • Exactly. Abusive relationships exist, and people do believe the things that Twilight books promote in real life, such as a guy is only controlling because he loves you, or that a girl's life should completely revolve around a guy, etc. Ergo, the book is fuelling real negative beliefs and impacting real people. The magic in the Harry Potter books is just a fantasy and only certain faiths believe that magic is real, but it obviously doesn't exist on the same scale. It's not really comparable.
      • Well, yeah. I can see that. It's pretty much the fault of people (and Meyer herself) for being crazy.
      • As something of an outspoken feminist I find the blatant sexism in the book and the material's support thereof to be painful as well. However, for how sickened I was when I experienced it in person, I don't think it holds a candle to the sheer horrors the concept of imprinting instilled in me. Narm aside, Twilight's open endorsement of child grooming and the quasi-pedophilic implications thereof is nothing short of disgusting. When God/Fate/Whatever tells you your true love is a newborn child that's when you start questioning God/Fate/Whatever.
    • I can't speak for everyone else, but I've been complaining about it because I recently saw the movie and wanted to kill Edward and Bella (He's an abusive prick and she seems like she's just using him to become a vampire) and people around me keep bringing it up. (Plus the fact that my girlfriend has a 10 year old nephew who wants to be just like Edward when he grows up so I'm trying to show him what real people think of guys like that.) Once it goes away I'll probably forget about it.
      • Funny, that was always what I thought of those two. Edward's abusive and stalker-ish probably 'cause he's a crazed virign who hates his pathetic sparkly existance and Bella is so dissilussioned with normal humans that she wants to become a "beautiful" vampire and stay with her "perfect boyfriend" (and is too weak to ever leave him) Ironically, that's how their actors seemed to be portraying them, whether it was intentional or not.
    • I gave the series a fair chance when I heard about it: I looked up the summaries and thought of trying it out, but the Breaking Dawn synopsis freaked me out too much. From the beginning, I've been irked by Bella's description and how much of a Mary Sue she seems to be. Still, I read the first book when my sister lent me her copy just so I can say I've read the books, and I gave up halfway through. It looks just like something I could have written in fifth or sixth grade.
  • What bugs this troper is the fact that werewolves don't bite you and turn you into a werewolf! Everyones so up about the sparkly vampires, but the books ignore a key aspect of werewolf mythology too, which is perhaps even more important!
    • I'm actually going to disagree on this one. It's explained in Breaking Dawn that they're not really werewolves, just shapeshifters who turn into wolves. Actual werewolves exist elsewhere.
    • If I remember correctly, there are a few mythos were being a werewolf is hereditary. (The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the World Of Darkness games. And trust me, the writing in those is leagues above this series.) The reason people are getting up in arms over the sparkly vampires bit is because... well, it's silly and really out of left field.
    • Of the various real world mythos I've read, I haven't read about any that are hereditary (which makes sense, given the origin of said myths). And similarly, biting someone and turning them into a werewolf (or were-whatever) is only significant in -some- myths (and of those I've read, mostly of the old wives tales form). It really depends on the culture and region in which the the were creature was created. And certainly, there may have been multiple types of werewolf like creatures within the same myths. The werewolf-vampire procreation processes is really a much more modern spin on certain things anyway.
  • This is going to sound kind of weird, but the series contains Fantastic Racism against humans as compared to sparklepires, and it's an unintentional example, because it's coming from S Meyer herself. My case is too long to post, but it's the first post here.
    • Check out the Fairly Odd Parents example on the same page. And this link because even though Fairly Odd Parents is WAAAAAYYYYYYY better than Twilight, they share several of the same flaws.
    • I don't care if you think Edward and Bella are retards, they are at least two retards in a world full of intelligent people. The Fairly Odd Parents world is entirely inhabitated by retards. There is no intelligence, just degrees of stupidity.
      • But keep in mind, Fairly Oddparents is mainly a bunch of satire meant for kids to enjoy. Sure, everyone is a retard because, to kids, people who act like retards are funny especially when it comes to cartoons. I don't think Bella and Edward are retards. If they were, Twilight would probably be a comedy instead of the "dark, dramatic," romance that people read it as.
    • This troper always thought this was just another way of showing who wears the pants in that relationship.
  • Is anyone baffled by the fact that Bella REJECTED Jacob, even though, that would be (well in this Twiverse) the PERFECT boyfriend? Hell, even Ed admitted it! But noooo...
    • If Bella hooked up with Jacob, and the next two books have Bella marrying Jacob and having a son together...everyone would complain on how much of a retard Jacob is, how stupid it is for a werewolf to sparkle, how Jacob gives werewolves a bad name, how Wolfs Rain and the original Wolf Man movie are better than Twilight, and how they hope Bella and Jacob's son would kill both of them. When it comes to liking this series, Failure Is The Only Option.
    • Except for the fact that Bella knows she's not Jacob's soulmate. Twenty years into their marriage, Jacob could have imprinted on another girl and left a forty year old Bella who can't go back to the first love of her life because Edward looks half her age.
      • But we all know Jake only imprinted on Renesmee so Ed and Bella could have their "happy ending."
      • God, just imagine if Bella and Jacob got married had a daughter and he imprinted on that child. Eep.
    • Jacob, who sexually assaulted her and broke her hand when she fought him off? Who threatened to commit suicide if she didn't sleep with him? Seriously? I'd take Edward before I took Jacob (emotional abuse and stalking vs. emotional blackmail and sexual assault?). Although, frankly, I'd take Mike long before either.
      • This troper was about to add a separate point asking why anyone could ever root for Jacob after his sexual assault of Bella, as well as his abusive, intentional guilt-tripping. Not to mention that a few chapters after the first assault, he assaults her AGAIN, and after a few minutes she decides she LIKES it! Rape Is Love much? Perhaps worst of all, after the first assault, Bella tells her father (who is a cop!!), and her father takes Jacob's side and high-fives him. I read that and actually felt physically ill. Edward's controlling actions towards Bella in that same book were particularly horrifying as well, but the assault descriptions actually made me worry I wasn't going to keep my lunch down. I am not exaggerating. (For the record, I read the books because I wanted to know what my friends were talking about, and yes I did finish them all. I enjoyed some aspects of the books, but I feel that Meyer has not portrayed very healthy relationships for Bella. I don't have a problem with a little dom/sub sexplay when all parties are consenting, but I don't feel that's what's being portrayed here.)
      • I think it's Discontinuity. Jacob fans still see him as the nice, funny kid from the first two books. Meyer is attached to the character, but she couldn't figure out how to make Edward look like a better option without turning Jake into a Jerkass rapist.
      • Disagree with this. The Team Edward's are not in it by default. They do find him more suited for Bella or more atractive than Jacob, whether he did the assaults or not. Also Team Jacob usually ignores the fact that Jacob was only nice when he though he was going to get on Bella's pants. The moment Edward shows up he acts all Alpha Male on Bella, that is not the attitude of someone naturally nice,IMO. In New Moon he told Charlie about the bikes for Bella's "own good" and to try and make sure she wouldn't see Edward (her boyfriend BTW), wich is very simmilar to Edward breaking Bella's car. Both attitudes are wrong of course, but Team Jacob looks like they didn't read that page of NM and gloss over it, or when he was trying to convince Bella to leave Edward to die knowing full well how would that affect Bella in the future, and is very convenient that Jacob supports all the choices Bella makes that had him spending time with her, but when she made clear she wanted to be a vampire, he threatens her with kill her and her new family and he attempts to on BD. I don't mean ills to Jacob (I like him as well, I like all the characters on the series) but I think ignoring his mistakes and motivations and calling it character derailment its not a fair way to like him, YMMV.
      • Definitely. Jacob was mortal, her age, liked the things she did and actually did them, didn't have a thirst for her blood, treated her with respect, didn't stalk her, and wasn't a walking icicle. Meyer knew he was hands-down a better choice, so she had to make him suck so Edward would look better in comparison.
      • I second the Mike thing. He's devoted, nice, sweet, and hasn't yet assaulted or stalked Bella. One could argue his following of her everywhere in school is stalking but considering he only does it at school and Edward does it EVERYWHERE and she still ends up with Edward, it's really no contest. The actor who plays him is cute, too—more so than R Pattz to this troper.
  • Seriously. This could have had some potential if it weren't for the mediocre (at best) romance, bad characterization and shitty writing. Why couldn't we have had the story of why some vampire guy would try to set up a family of human-like vampires? That could have had serious potential.
    • "This human-like vampires suck! They give human-like vampires a bad name! Blade is better than this crap! The main human-like vampire is a retard!", right?
  • This troper has heard the storyline of Twilight so much by the fans, why does she even need to watch/read it? The fans expect us to read and watch before we review, when they've already given away the spoilers to convince other people that the series is "awesome"... and that irks me.
  • Also, what's with the cults that this series is starting? There's no way that romance literature should have a religion.
    • So it's all right if it's Harry Potter, then? Ju-heezus.
      • That's the first I've heard.
      • Harry Potter isn't Romance literature. The difference between the two is that Twilight is some weird perverted sick crap meant to get 13 year old girls wound up, and Harry Potter has a plot.
    • It may not be the presence of cults so much as what they're worshiping. Harry Potter has the Power Of Friendship, a struggle against evil, a coming-of-age story, with a side of controversy over the whole witchcraft thing. Twilight seems to offer Unfortunate Implications, Family Unfriendly Aesops, and Purple Prose.
    • It's probably not the best idea to take internet cults at face value. Hell, Twilight isn't even the weirdest thing "worshipped": There's an internet cult based around the worship of David Bowie's crotch.
    • Indeed in this time and day is trendy to make cults of everything you love with the fire of two thousand suns. I for example joined the Church of Tetris. Because Tetris rules!
  • It just bugs me that apparently Antis and fans can't be friends . . . except we can. I have at least three very good friends who love Twilight and I hate it. We can heal the world, people! Even if I think Twilight is a steaming pile of abusive crap.
    • Seconded. It's as if some people only see really over-the-top Twi fans in their moments of fangirl histrionics and then assume they must spend 24 hours a day, 7 days a week like that. This troper can't stand Twilight as serious literature, slogged through the books for the innate entertainment value in reading So Bad Its Good/Horrible YA fiction, and still ended up leaving a sizeable dent in her bedroom wall from chucking the damn things across the room... and then can laugh, joke and theorise with the best of the pro-Twi fangirls. They're not automatically horrible people just because they have kind of crappy taste in literature. If both sides agree not to come across as pushy or hostile, we can live together in peace and harmony.
      • I never believed in the power of friendship until I reluctantly attended a Twilight release with some very devoted fans. We spent all night arguing the pros and cons of the series in genuinely civil tones, and when we finally got the movie home and I couldn't contain my cynicism any longer they started riffing the movie right alongside me.
  • The brand of Too Dumb To Live insanity it seems to induce.
    Anti: "I'm sorry, but Edward looks like a rapist on the DVD cover."
    Friend 1: "A hot rapist."
    Anti: "So you wouldn't mind if he tried to rape you?"
    Friend 2: "No. He's hot."
    Me: "So if a complete stranger who's hot tried to rape you, you wouldn't have a problem?"
    Friend 2: "No, as long as he's hot. If he's ugly, then I'd call the cops on him."
    • This is the male mentality to being raped by a female, so stop being a hypocrite.
      • Rape Is Okay When Its Female On Male?
      • I know many a man who should beg to differ. Rape is rape is rape, and it's wrong.
      • Uh, as a sensitive intellectual guy, I'd like to testify to the contrary of stereotype.
      • Whoa there, Captain Assumption. Unless you're intimately connected with the minds of every male on the planet, I'd like you to shut up and sit right the hell back down before you embarrass yourself again. "This is the male mentality bleh bleh nyeh bullshit bullshit." Who forgot to beat you as a child?
      • Hey! Remember when those two hot chicks raped a nerd because they thought they were doing him a favor and the trauma made him kill himself? Apparently you don't.
    • Out of curiosity - how old was/is your friend? I'm guessing school age, due to their complete and utter ignorance on the whole concept of "rape" (actually a little alarming, to be honest), but you never know...
  • So, is it ever explained what Bella tells her human family and friends when she goes from pregnant, to VERY pregnant, to having a toddler all within a few months? For that matter, do the Cullens stay in Forks? Because if they do, I'm pretty sure her human family and friends will start to wonder why Bella is suddenly perfect in every way and has some kid with her that is aging at the speed of light. Does she even talk to her family after getting changed? What do her parents think of her choice to get married and have a kid, without even a thought of college? Is there even a token argument ANYWHERE?
    • One assumes that the Cullens move around a lot, stick to cities with a lot of cloud cover, and return to Forks when the last generation has forgotten about them. Now that Bella's joined their cult, she'll probably do the same.
      • Sooooo, basically Bella gives a big, honkin' "fuck you" to her family then?
      • Yep.
      • Er, no, actually, Bella does explain to her father Charlie what's going on in a very vague sense. He basically says, in so many words, "I can tell that you've undergone some sort of insane magical transformation, but if you tell me the details of that and of your speed-growing baby, it'll seriously freak me out and undo my concept of reality, so please DON'T give me any details ... and I'll just pretend everything is okay." It's not explained how Charlie intends to cope with this as the years go by and Bella never ages, but presumably he gets better at coming to terms with her transformation over time. Having less information about her, uh, "diet" is probably for the best as well. As for how Bella explains it to her mother, this isn't included in the books (her parents are divorced and her mom lives across the country), but I assume a similar explanation occurs after the last book ends.
      • I'd still say choosing to be a vampire over living with your human family is kind of a big flip-off.
      • Actually, she decides with Charlie that her mom couldn't handle it. So yep, it's a big "fuck you," to her mother.
      • Besides, that's just her parents. Did she tell any relatives or friends what was going on? Oh right, human friends don't count after she meets Edward.
      • Oh, and the question of "will her parents care that she's getting married right out of high school, isn't going to college, and having a honeymoon baby"? Once it happens and she tells them about it, her parents completely don't give a shit about those decisions, which is TOTALLY OOC for them (it's established multiple times that they both want her to go to college and, you know, be responsible about her life/love/decisions/sex/not being a goddamned vampire/you name it). This complete about-face on the part of her parents is one of the many, many things that bugs me about the series.
  • Bad vampire: Go ahead and kill me.
    Edward: No, killing is bad. I'm better than you because I won't kill you even after you almost ate my girlfriend.
    Edward's friends then show up, rips the now-defenseless vampire's arms and head off and then set him on fire. No one points out the creepy moral dissonance.
  • Doesn't this story make about as much sense as a man falling in love with a cheeseburger that talks?
    • Now that I finally found the idiot who inspired Stephen Hillenburg to make the crappiest Spongebob episode ever, can I punch him?
    • You mean like this? <3
    • This troper described her views on vampire/human relations as follows— "Imagine trying to woo a ham sandwich. It can talk, but nothing it says really makes sense— it talks about how soft its bread is, how it's full of delicious meat and cheese and luscious, luscious condiments, but it doesn't make sense, because it's describing itself from the point of view of a sandwich. You have nothing in common. Sooner or later, you're going to get hungry."
    • Except that doesn't make any fucking sense. Don't get me wrong, Twilight is still bad, but unless you used to be a ham sandwich yourself in the scenario, your analogy fails. In every mythology I've ever heard of, Vampires are an altered version of humans, be it through bite/magic/retrovirus. So even if the human in question were prattling on about mundane human things, the Vampire who would have spent an average of 20 years being human would still know what they were talking about. Any issue with understanding would stem from them being older not from them being inherently unable to understand conversations from a non-vampire frame of reference (which shouldn't really be any different barring discussions of immortality or neck-biting).
  • Why does everyone keep comparing Twilight to Harry Potter? This troper sees little similarity.
    • Let's see:
    • Edward Cullen = Robert Pattinson = Cedric Diggory
      • Bella Swan = Kristen Stewart = Jess
      • Rosalie = Emile Hirsch = Jay
      • Twilight = Catherine Hardwicke = Lords of Downtown
    • People think the Twilight books are bad because they promote abusive relationships, reading too much into them. People think the Harry Potter books are bad because they promote satanism, reading too much into them.
      • This troper suspects that Edward is just really, obviously abusive.
      • So wait, noticing major Unfortunate Implications in books is "reading too much into them"? If a ship is highly abusive [and I agree with the above troper that it's really obviously abusive] but portrayed as the best couple ever, how does that not promote abusive relationships?
      • Uhh, sorry, but no. I'm pretty breezy when it comes to books, but even I picked up the major warning signs from Edward. Being unsettled that he watches her while she sleeps, follows her around constantly, continually tells her she smells so good he'd like to kill her, is not "reading too much into them". Edward has, and I'm not exagerrating here, all the attributes of a possessive, emotionally abusive wife beater. So, you know, have fun with that ladies.
      • Edward is a vampire: All vampires have a long tradition or watching pretty ladies sleeping: Angel and Spike did with with Buffy and Dracula is also fond of this. I think SM just changed the situation and have the girl liking it wich is just another change on normal vampire stories. Bella is constantly on REAL danger (vampires that cannot posibly be killed by humans and Werewolves that are unstable when young and unpredictable) and doesn't have a survival instict worth a damn so in this universe his actions have a reason and a purpose. On real life if a guy wants to kills you is a big issue in this fantasy world is just a plot device.
      • Don't recall when Spike did that, but his love was never shown as healthy. He was obsessive up the yazzo. To my memory, when Angel did it Buffy at least knew he was there (and I think it was before she knew he was a Vampire), in addition to the fact he was still in his "anti-social creepy stalker not-shown-as-mentally-healthy stage. He did it later, but that was when he was Angelus and did it purposefully to creep her out and let her know he could have killed her if he'd wanted. And yes, Dracula did watch women while they slept...and then he killed them. Awwwwww. Simply saying "this is just a fantasy" doesn't work when so many are holding these novels up as portraying the perfect romance.
      • Again being a Buffy fan I know a lot of people that consider Buffy/Angel the perfect romance and the same for Buffy/Spike. Even after the attempted rape and Buffy also forgave Spike for this and even told him that she loved him. I think I should say this is a vampire fantasy and that a lot of people love it. And the point of mentioning count Dracula is to remind you that the twist in this story is exactly that "Dracula" chooses not to kill "the girl",she watches which makes it a literary twist to an old story not a mind control device to ruin women/men around the world. Women are not that gullible.
      • Dracula was/always is a villain, so him watching over a girl while she sleeps is not meant to be a good thing. Considering when Buffy first did the deed with Angel he became psychotic, and they were on egg shells ever after, and how, as I mentioned, Spike was obsessive as all hell, people who believe their relationships were perfect are wrong as well. Just because another show/book/what-have-you does it also doesn't forgive it happening here. They may have been better than Edward/Bella, as both Angel/Spike were a bit more mentally balanced (which is saying something), but both are shown to be unrealistic in the end.
      • Of course Dracula watching over girls is bad that is why in this case is a twist. And the point of mentioning the other fans that shipped the human girl with the vampire of their choice was because no one demonized their relationships in spite that they did horrible things to each other depending on their stage of the relationship, the point is that is tradition on the literary genre . Also I would hardly consider Angel and Spike more mentally balanced than Edward or any other fictional vampire like Louis (interview with the vampire), Stefan , Damon (the vampire diaries), Bill or even Blade. They are vampires with issues that try to do good in spite of their murderous nature and that might fall in love with humans/werewolves/other vampires and all the drama that involves. The other ones are just better written and in this point in time less popular.
    • Hermione is beautiful, but everyone (even the fans) see her as ugly. Bella is beautiful, but everyone (including the fans) see her as normal/average looking.
      • Emma Watson plays Hermione. Are the fans suffering from Adaptation Decay induced blindness?
      • This troper remembers that the description of Hermione in the first book was rather bland. She had no allure at all until Miss Watson gave her some in Movie # 4
      • When you consider that Hermione is not the narrator of her story, while Bella is, it makes sense since Bella is basically the avatar for the reader(and the author) to project on to, thus even though Bella is obviously pretty, she remains plain for the sake of never being too beautiful for the female readers to feel as if they could never be her. I mean, her name is Bella Swan, it literally translates to Beautiful Swan. It can be considered an Ugly Duckling story, with here being beautiful all along(and thus the reader being the same).
      • Also Hermione never calls herself ugly, the one who calls her plain is Harry. And he also tells her in the fifth book that he doesn't think she's ugly.
      • Harry is the narrator so we as readers should get his interpretation of her. Thereby she would be plain until Miss Watson arrived.
      • Hermione is plain looking for the beginning of the book, described as having bushy hair and large front teeth with braces. She isn't described as being beautiful until the fourth book when she magically shrinks her front teeth and uses a hair product to straighten her hair (which isn't a permenant change)
    • Pattinson doesn't want to be typecast as Edward, despite the fans. Daniel Radcliffe doesn't want to be typecast as Harry, despite the fans
      • This is true for actors from every popular movie, eg: Zachary Quinto who did not want to be typecasted into his role of Sylar.
    • Edward and Bella can't have sex because of the PG rating. Harry and Ginny/Ron and Hermione can't have sex because of the PG rating
      • Ron and Hermione never once said that they wanted to have sex, albeit they had no time to think about that.
    • Everyone thinks Jacob is better for Bella than Edward. Everyone thinks Harry is better for Hermione than Ron.
      • Again not everyone thinks that. Some fans thinks Luna is better for Harry than Ginny, some people Think that Malfoy is.
      • Many people think that Jacob is better for Edward than Bella. This troper couldn't see how would that work. At least Harry and Draco seem to show some interest in each other, even though this interest manifests itself in different ways, like Harry's stalking in the sixth book and Draco's obsession with mocking Harry.
      • I'm not an slasher but I think the Jakedward fans have a lot of circunstacional evidence to back it up. Jake imprinted on her daughter meaning that he was atracted to Bella's DNA surely he had to be atracted to Edward on some level, no to mention that he is going to be sucking face on less than a decade with someone that looks exactly like Edward except that she has her mother's eyes. I'm sure it was no Smeyer intentions but at least on Jacob's side there is a lot going on. You know what the say the opposite of love is not hate but indiference.
      • I would had liked Malfoy's hate for half-blood Hermione would had been hiding a crush on her, thus having Malfoy actually do something heroic to protect her and join the good guys like the book promised that the all houses would be togheter at the end to defeat the dark lord *coughtbullshitcough*. Also Team Edward is bigger than Team Jacob so the everybody thinks is subjective.
      • I didn't shiped Draco/Hermione but I wouldn't had called it BS if that happened. I mean Draco paid to much attention to Hermione and it would make sense that if he would had found a half-blood atractive he would had done the best to hide it. Sadly Slytherins were not given the chance to help defeat Voldy like the other houses did. Stupid liying sorting hat.
      • Everyone I've talked to, who's actually thought it out, says Mike would be best for Bella. Everyone who actually read the Harry Potter book and took it at face value, knows that Hermione and Ron were pretty much moving towards this the whole time.
      • Those people don't like Mike very much right?
      • Based on what though exactly? The fact that Hermione choses to spend time with Ron over Harry when she has the opportunity? Oh wait, no, she choses Harry. The fact that she demonstrably seems to make an effort to show Ron she cares about him and views him as important to her? Oh wait, again no, she's too busy showing Harry that. Maybe there are smaller instances that show this, how about the fact that when she thought she would get some alone time with Ron when he became prefect that she was jumping for joy? Damn, again no, she was estatic when she thought Harry was prefect but quite clearly disappointed when it wasnt him but Ron who had the badge. How about when she chose to stay and watch the biggest Quiditch game of Ron's life and support him and let Harry wander off with Hagrid and deal with whatever he wanted (as Hagrid had in fact just asked Harry for a word, not Harry and Hermione)? Hmm no, she went with Harry without any complaint at all. So how about in the last book when Ron had a huge horocrux inspired argument with Harry and abandoned him and Hermione went with Ron as a show of support for the guy she was supposedly moving towards being with the entire time. No, wait, she immediately sided with Harry and even cast a shield charm around them both to seperate them from Ron. Oh I know, how about the fact that she and Ron shared romantic scenes throughout the books.... but no, wait, they dont, she shares them with Harry however, constantly, even in the last book of the series, where said moments were so intense that the author has commented on them in an interview and said how the relationship could have gone Harry/Hermione. I could go on with these examples, but I've made my point. I suspect what you mean is the fact that they bicker a lot during the books, and have decided that means they are destined to fall for each other. Though to take that as a sign you would have to ignore the fact that said bickering is constantly peppered with negative words like "coldy" "acidly" etc and how repeatedly it is so hurtful it makes Hermione cry, or makes her so annoyed that she often simply ignores Ron because of it.
      • And yet it was Ron dating other people that threw Hermione into snits and Hermione kissing other boys that got Ron all sad and mopey and the fact that both got significantly happier when the other broke up with whomever they were dating. But this Troper digresses, she fails to see the Mike/Bella and Ron/Hermione comparison.
      • This holds true for any movie where there is a love triangle.
      • Ahaha, everyone.
      • Harry/Hermione fans often seem to have the impression that they are the majority and what they feel about the pairings is self-evident. Bella/Jacob fans often seem to have the impression that they are the majority and what they feel about the pairings is self-evident.
    • Twilight owes a lot to Anne Rice and Angel. Harry Potter owes a lot to Books of Magic and Troll.
      • Harry Potter also holds a lot to every single book delving into the school of witchcraft territory. Also Anne Rice's Vampire Chronicles are memoirs. Twilight doesn't really follow regular vampire conventions
      • Bad analogy as most books released from 2000 onwards owe a lot to previous released books.
      • Every book owes something to the books that came before it. A common saying among literature enthusiasts is "There's no such thing as an original story," and TV Tropes itself is proof that everything builds off of what came before.
      • You could find books during any time period that owed a lot to other books.
    • All the Twilight books will be filmed. Thus far, we have two (or three) movies left to complete the whole Harry Potter saga.
      • So was Lord of the Rings, and the Bourne series, would like to have a word with you.
    • Transformation fetishists lust after Harry Potter because of the potential uses of magic (ie. macrophiles get hot at the thought of Harry using the 'Engorgio' spell on Hermione). Goths lust after Twilight because of the vampires.
      • More like Teenage girl lust, other people are more creeped out by Twilight than anything else. Also most vampire lovers hate Twilight because it is inaccurate depiction of Vampire lore.
    • Whenever the Twilight characters go, Paramore's "Decode" plays in the background. Whenever Harry Potter goes, the John Williams theme plays on the background.
      • Its called a character theme song, its very common in movies you know.
    • Edward Cullen, like famed voice actor Peter Cullen. Mafalda Hopkirk, like famed Argetinian comic strip character Mafalda.
    • Twilight is Summit Media's cash cow. Harry Potter is/was Warner Bros' cash cow.
      • So was Lord of the Rings, and Matrix,and The Bourne series, and Pirates of the Caribbean, and ...
    • Voldemort seems like a demon, but he's really a wizard. Jacob seems like a werewolf, but he's really a shapeshifter.
      • Last time I checked Jacob was a werewolf, and Voldemort was stated as being a powerful wizard from the get go, they never called him a demon. He just acted like one big difference.
    • Charlie is a nice and nurturing father figure, even if he is a little strict. Mr. Weasley is a nice and nurturing father figure, even if he is a little goofy.
      • Except their totally different in attitude.
      • Do you really think that Mr. Weasley would high-five someone who tried to rape/get it on/whatever his daughter? Hell- if he didn't do anything (which is doubtful), Mrs. Wesley would. Or are you forgetting the best quote ever? Not my daughter you BITCH!
    • Bella is really a stoner/tramuatized girl creating a fantasy world to keep sane/reality warper, even though canon says differently. Luna is really a ghost, even if canon says differently.
      • Canon says differently Luna is just an eccentric witch who has a tendency to be right, meanwhile Bella is just a superficial girl without personality with an emotionally abusive boyfriend. They're worlds apart
    • Alice is a vampire fairy. Remus is a werewolf wizard.
      • Correction Alice was a human turned into a Vampire, which is what gave her her powers. Remus on the other hand was a wizard who was attacked by a werewolf
    • The Twilight books get more unrealistic as they go on. Tthe Harry Potter books get darker as they go on.
      • There is a big difference between an unrealistic storyline and a dark storyline.
    • I can't watch The Messengers or Zathura without seeing them as "Bella in a haunted house" or "Bella in space". I can't watch The Boy in the Striped Pajamas or Basic Instinct 2 without seeing them as "Remus as a Nazi officer" or "Remus vs Catherine Tramell".
      • That's just you and your delusions
    • The first Twilight book/movie is called "Twilight". All Harry Potter books are "Harry Potter and the...".
      • Now I can't decide if your delusional or if you're just being sarcastic
    • The Cullens have their own island. Hogwarths has its own island.
      • Hogwarts does not have its own island, you can argue that the British Isle counts...
      • Hogwarts is in Ireland, isn't it?
      • it's in Northern Scotland
    • Everyone who loved the first Twilight book/movie nows hates the series. Everyone who hated the first two Harry Potter books/movies now loves the series.
    • The sucess of Twilight sparked an interest in vampire movies. The sucess of Harry Potter sparked an interest in adapting fantasy book series into movies.
      • Twilight was then end of a long line of vampire adaptations, Interview with a Vampire, Blood and Chocolate...
      • Um... Blood and Chocolate is about werewolves...
      • Mea maxima culpa, dear reader.
    • What other books did Meyer wrote, besides Twilight? What other books Rowling wrote, besides Harry Potter?
      • Stephanie Meyer's The Host
      • Well Rowling has written 7 great books, compared to 5 mediocre books that are more like fan-fiction than actual literature. This troper doesn't really see the comparison between JKR and Meyer.
      • "7 great books" by Rowling? Hell no. One great book, Po A, the rest range from good to outright crap.
    • Jacob's extended role in the Twilight movie sets the stage for much of the plot of the upcoming New Moon movie. Kreacher's presence in the Order of the Phoenix movie sets the stage for much of the plot of the upcoming Deathly Hallows movie.
      • the side character becoming more important later on in the series is a trope that shows up in every book/movie/TV series ever.
    • Remus is a good werewolf who fights Fenrir Greyback, an evil werewolf. Edward is a good vampire who fights James, an evil vampire.
      • Werewolf vs Werewolf, Vampire v.s. Werewolf they're not different at all
    • The Vampire Council. The Ministry of Magic.
      • Half of those weren't actually similarities [or else similarities that nearly EVERYTHING has, such as owing a lot to _____], a few just plain weren't true, and most of the rest are so abstract that I doubt many people would make the connection, such as the Jacob=Kreacher one.
    • I agree to an extent, I think the similarity comes from fandoms that are gigantic, bridge several generations, get a lot of media coverage, and are a bit batshit. I don't really think Twilight reaches the same extent of Harry on any but the last though.
    • Both series made a lot of money and are popular enough to get kids reading. They're also the two series that people who don't read will often put in their "Favorite Books" section of their My Space, aside from the usual smattering of titles that high schools often make their kids read.
      • Except Twilight lacks the worldwide popularity of Harry Potter
    • And the novels first hit mainstream at the same time as the hoopla surrounding Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows was ending. Massive amounts of Harry Potter readers migrated to Twilight and the spike in sales attracted a lot of media: it was the novel that beat HP on best seller lists, and JKR and Meyer have superficially identical backgrounds (housewife, mother, writer of fantasy series); its pretty much inevitable that the Media immediately crowned Meyer as Rowling II and started comparing the novels.
      • Personally, I get why the comparison is always made, I just think it's a stupid comparison anyway, since the series have very little in common.
    • on another side, every big kids novel nowdays gets automatically compared to Harry Potter, Stephanie Meyer just got the standard treatment.
    • I think we can all agree that pretty much every example above is really way too far-reaching and out there to be taken as a serious comparison.
    • I think most of the above comparisons stretch things. The series aren't really on par. One is from the perspective of a human girl who loves a vampire, the other is from the perspective of a wizard boy who has to defeat evil. Bella major issue is keeping Edward with her while Harry's major issues is keeping alive. The entire plot of Twilight is driven by the romance while Harry potter's romance is secondary or every tertiary to the action and intrigue. I won't disagree that they have some things in common, but one is a fantasy/pseudo-sci-fi romance while the other is a pure fantasy action/adventure/drama.
  • Could someone please tell me why Edward and Bella even fell in love? Their relationship is an infatuation, not love. They have no hobbies or anything in common, and the only thing they talk about is their "love" and the fact that one is a vampire and one is a human. I read the books, I was a Fan once (a long, long time ago), and I still have no idea.
    • I think is started on infatuation but again we don't know why Carlisle/Esme, Emmet/Rosalie or Alice/Jasper keep loving each other for over a century or fell in love on the first time. IMO they just were destined to be together and that pretty much sums it all the book. I think SM doesn't really like to explain love or its working or think that making sense is overrated on every instance.
    • Because Bella is a superficial, horny teenager, lacking in common sense, who judges a person's worth by how much they sparkle in the sunlight. Edward is a creepy stalker who wants to eat her. At least that's my opinion.
  • Bella is pregnant. Bella wants blood. Bella is brought blood in a sippy cup. Forget all the other plotholes, what I want to know is why the hell a family of immortal vampires has a sippy cup in their household.
    • They're immortal. They're also filthy rich. Honestly, if I had pretty much an infinite amount of money, besides donating to charities, I would buy SO many weird things. After all, drinking from the same thing day in, day out would get boring if you have forever to waste. ... What? It almost makes sense! although that might be why I'm getting weird looks...
      • So true. I'm sure they have a lot of free time and money on their hands and access to cable network so they can get silly stuff...Like the Cullen crest jewelry for example.
      • I think they have stores in Forks.
    • Sometimes Esme's baby-mania gets the better of her and decides that one of her "children" needs a diaper change and a bed time story. Edward doesn't like to talk about those times very much, probably because he's her most common target (why else would he be so fucked up?).
  • The Cullens don't drink human blood because they value human life/don't want to be monsters/want to live in peace/whatever, but when they bring vampires to their home in Breaking Dawn, not only do they let the vampires eat humans, they supply them with a means of transportation so that they can do so. This also isn't the first time they've housed other vampires as Midnight Sun shows us, so what purpose does not eating people serve if they are willing to not only house vampires who do eat humans, but are also willing to help them to do it? It's like saying you don't want to be a murderer but you have no problem aiding and abetting one. And they never bring this up.
    • The natural order of things is for vampires to eat humans, and the Cullens recognize this. While they, and Tanya's coven, do try to convert other vampires to "vegetarianism" when they get the chance (for instance, Kate wanting Garret to come be vegetarian with her), they don't push the issue - especially when they need the good will and support of their guests to convince the Volturi not to attack and kill them all. The Cullens describe themselves as vegetarians, after all, not protectors of humanity.
      • It's not the natural order for vampires to eat humans any more than it's natural for humans to eat humans. It's the killing of sapient creatures by other sapient creatures. Human-eating vampires are murderers and the Cullens are aiding and abetting murderers.
      • You fail to remember that they Vulturi rule the vampire world. If they were to go on a crusade to turn all the vampires into "vegetarianism" or kill them trying they will certainly will end up with a lot of enemies that might decide to kill every human on a 100 kms diameter just to sent the message, thus they need to play it cool so the other vampires won't masacre their little family. Now of course that Sue Bella is a powerful vampire and so pure and balanced and perfect that she might encourage them to actually convert everyone since she and her Mary Sue daughter engaged to Wolfman have powers that will destroy the Vulturi. And I did it again Twilight saga continues!
  • VEGETARIANS DO NOT WORK THAT WAY! Bears and mountain lions are not vegetables! Should have found a new word. Animalitarians, or something, if that's not already a word with some different meaning I don't know about.
    • ...You're really whiny, you know that?
    • I think I read it was supposed to be some sort of vampire inside joke. Still though, that always sorta bugged me.
      • I think when you are complaining that a throwaway metaphor is bad because it does not make 'literal' sense (someone please read the definition of metaphor). Hatedom has finally crossed the line into petty griping.
      • I (original poster) am not part of the hatedom just because I don't like something about it. I don't care if the first use of the term in the series was a metaphor, it bothers me that people (from what I've seen, people included in the series) keep using it literally, as though animals are literally vegetables to vampires compared to humans, when that's only even close to accurate metaphorically. If it's devolved into a running Metaphorgotten, they should choose a different word.
    • Its a metaphor, and its a relatively speaking a good one. Just as vegetarians choose to commit the lesser evil of harming plants for food (instead of animals); vegetarian vampires has to choose to commit the lesser evil of harming wildebeests (instead of humans) for food.
      • Butchers are statistically known to go insane from their job. If a normal person killed a pig with their teeth he or she would feel like a monster (The Twilight Vamps lack of necessity to adapt to killing could be hand waved by the fact killing is their nature, and they are monsters.). And I've also heard the word "vegetarian" used in discussion about Twilight on a talk show like it isn't a metaphor.
  • Two things: This troper's brother commented at one point: "If he's cold as the grave, shouldn't his nipples be constantly hard?", and second, "You fell down some stairs and through a window in a hotel." WHAT? Where the hell did she find stairs that opened onto a window, first off, and why didn't she take the elevator?
    • Vampires in Twilight are more rock then flesh and bone, so I guess his nipples, like the rest of his body, would be hard all the time (a corollary to that would be that making love the Edward would be the equivalent to making love to a frozen Popsicle). Also, many older hotels are built without lifts, and many stairwells have windows in them (speaking from experience, This Troper did once trip on a staircase, and the momentum of the fall sent me crashing through a glass window at the bottom of the stairs, fortunately, the window was on the ground floor, but it was still very embarrassing).
      • So, you agree that his nipples are always erect? Then does that mean he can't ever wear thin tops? It would look like he was smuggling raisins.
      • Also, that was a cover. It didn't happen. She actually got beat up by a bad vampire and blacked out for all of it so Meyer wouldn't have to try to write an actual fight scene.
      • Yes, I know it's a cover, but, still, her mother believed that? Really?
      • Apparently Bells is just THAT clumsy, which of course means in REAL life Bella would have been taken away when she was three because she would be going to school with cuts and bruises If your kid is so clumsy that a vampire attack can be passed off as a klutz attack, she would have to have been that clumsy for a long time. That means, even if Renee insisted she didn't beat her, the cops would have at least been watching her like a hawk.
      • She doesn't have to be walking around with a battered face all of the time, because a person doesn't necessarily have to keep getting that kind of injuries due to their klutziness to have a story like falling down the stairs believable. Bella might get a broken bone now and then; fell off playground equipment when she was a kid, etc. However, if it's that bad Renee should consider physical therapy for Bella.
  • Why haven't the crazy fangirls gotten the hint re: their antics scaring Rob Pattinson? If they love him so much, shouldn't they try to make him happy by leaving him alone like he so clearly wants? Especially after he almost got run over while running away from them.
    • On a related note, this troper wonders how it is that they seem to have missed all the times he's slagged on the book, if they're so freaking obsessed with him? Do they just try to suppress the memory, or what?
    • Potentially because he's acting like Edward and they as well. They're stalking him as their own and he hates everything, is reclusive, etc/whatever. Exaggeration, of course, but perhaps his appeal is precisely because of his anti-appeal.
  • This male troper watched the movie (with the aid of Rifftrax), mostly to form my own opinion and half to redeem myself to a friend who called me out for slagging the series without ever reading it. Couple of good actors, terrible script stuffed with Unfortunate Implications, okay now I feel justified in making fun of the series. But here's the thing that really bugged me: I found Edward to be a sympathetic character. Yes, I found the creepy stalker-type perfect picture of an abusive boyfriend more sympathetic than the Too Dumb To Live female protagonist. The closest explanation for this that I have is that Edward was constantly telling Bella "this is a stupid idea, you shouldn't do this" — and even though he was "doing this" himself, he at least acknowledged it was a really bad idea. Is this feeling just the result of the kind of meta-Unfortunate Implication that everyone talks about (that the creepy stalker abusive boyfriend is portrayed sympathetically), or am I a sexist pigface?
    • Also, the Rifftrax makes the movie highly enjoyable, for anyone who was interested.
      Mike Nelson (as Edward in Bella's bedroom): What was our math homework?
    • So, wait, you watched the movie to make up for not having read the book? Not quite the same.
    • No, you're not a sexist pigface. Robert Pattinson is just that good of an actor. When Pattinson read the book, he saw Edward as a kind of pathetic loser who didn't get out enough, and played him accordingly. It was a definite improvement over the "perfect" Edward Smeyer kept shoving in our faces.
    • I think he had an advanced copy of Midnight Sun since that is the way Edward feels, thinking that he is inferior to Bella Sue. Which is more of fullfilment fantasy I mean what if you crush not only adored you but think of himself as too inferior to talk to you and that is the reason he is a jerk?
    • This troper actually did read to book so he could mock with authority (it was worse than he expected). The Rifftrax version of the movie soon followed, and I agree completely with the above troper. It was great!
      Mike Nelson: [as the Cullens rush onto the scene & stare in shock] Woah! Two dogs doing it!
  • Every line which sums up to "women are so silly." Edward likens Bella's anger to that of "a kitten who thinks it's a tiger." Edward constantly puts down or condescends to Bella because she's just so adorably naive. The only girl in the entire school who has thoughts which aren't catty and petty—You'd think after nearly a century Edward would figure out human adolescents are shallow and Bella is no exception—is Angela, who is the stereotypical shy, sweet pastor's daughter. I hate to break it to you, Meyer, but Louisa May Alcott already wrote Beth and frankly she did it ten times better.
  • I hate how this series brings out the worst in me. I get angry at nice people, I find everything I can wrong with it, and I spend hours looking for negative tropes to add to this site. Damn you, Meyer, and your stupid book that turns me into a raving bitch.
    • Agreed. Today, I wasted two hours reading this whole page.
    • I totaly hear what you're saying. What makes it worse is that we can't "just ignore it". How can you ignore something that's so butt-numbingly awful and yet so inexplicably popular to the point where it is shoved in your face constantly?
  • Why did it take the Volturi so long to reach Forks? Irina runs off, and suddenly Alice sees the Volturi arriving...in a couple months. Alice and Bella get there in New Moon in less than a few days. The Volturi are rich and should have capable transportation, and everyone is already in Volterra so they don't need to spend time gathering their forces. Even if Irina didn't have access to a phone, she could have run to the Voluturi within a few days. Did they get lost at the airport? Did they misplace where they had packed their wives? Did they take a stroll through Russia?
    • Now I want to read THAT book: 'The Terminal: Volturi Edition!' It'd be awesome, with Jane inflicting her psychic torture on immigration officials and Aro giggling over those turny baggage things and the entire gang taking up a whole section of the airport and creeping people out, but none of the humans say anything because they don't want to be Mistaken For Racist.
    • Awesome!...You sir/ma'am win at the internet!
  • It really bugs me that, Edward, the white guy is seen as good even though his actions clearly indicate otherwise and he thinks about killing people all the time and actually has to kill people. While Jacob, the Native guy, is seen as a dumb, hot-headed savage even though—child grooming and guilt trips aside—he never kills anyone. This just seems racist on Smeyer's behalf. It bugs me even more that no one ever calls this out.
    • Well, not to play devil's advocate but, I think Meyer quite loves the Jacob character. He's definitely hot-headed, but he's not supposed to be seen as dumb or savage. Bella is Meyer's Mary Sue and she certainly doesn't see him that way. Meyer actually wrote a big essay defending him on her official site, and chose to write from his point of view before she wrote from Edward's. I think by the time she go to Eclipse she realized he was actually a lot more likable than Edward, and that's why she felt he had to turn into a jerkass, or more of a jerkass than Edward. Don't get me wrong, there's plenty of twisted issues in the book (including racial ones) that Meyer didn't even pick up on, I just don't think this is one of them. Also, Jacob is a modern 16 year old kid while Edward is an 108 year old who never quite caught up with the times.
  • Where are the editors for these books? Seriously, where? I could write off the thesaurus abuse and the poorly written dialogue and the weird things Meyer does to language, but there is a scene in New Moon that starts in the cab of Bella's truck with her and Edward kissing and then suddenly they are somehow in her house on her couch. What. The. Hell. I actually backed up a couple pages and read the scene again to make sure I hadn't missed the transition (since I'm reading the series because of "you can't make fun of it if you haven't read it" I was willing to concede I might have missed it since I was admittedly not giving it my full attention.) Nope, I didn't miss anything. I guess teleportation is one Edward's special powers now. . . I mean, for real, someone, somewhere should have caught a continuity error that big. That no one did shows me just how much the people who put out Twilight cared about the quality of the books.
    • They're partying at the same place the Harry Potter editors were when "Half Blood Prince" and "Deathly Hallows" passed through their desks.
    • And they probably never will. Look at the money it's made! It's just sad that the money people make off something rather than the actual quality is considered a success in this country.
    • They require reading it extra hard. And lord knows there're hard enough to read already.
  • Why don't any of the vampires actually do anything with their powers? I know that there are evil vampires preparing to kill vampires who are open about their powers (which is stupid, because really, what are humans going to be able to do against sparkly Superman?), but couldn't Jasper work as a mediator or something using his powers? Come on guys, I know having housebreaking sex all day is tempting, but with great power Comes Great Responsibility.
    • Well, I'd like to think a helicopter gunship or F-15 would make short work of a sparklepire, so the evil vamps might have good reason to keep thing secret, but I seriously doubt Meyer put that much thought into it.
    • I was thinking on nuclear weapons. Still I agree that Carlisle should be more proactive being the good guy and Edward already has a hero complex, so he should take advantage of that and have their family fighting the bad vampires.
  • I mentioned this on the forums, but think about Edward's traits - pale, cold to the touch, bitter, angsty, a criminal, functionally immortal, incapable of living a normal life, speaks in an excessively poetic manner and obsessed with his love interest to the point where he doesn't care who he hurts to protect her. Edward is Mr. Freeze if Mr. Freeze were horribly written and portrayed as a hero.
  • If the Cullens come across an ugly person who is almost dead, would they turn them into a vampire? I mean, they are all beautiful. Would having an ugly one ruin there image?
    • For one thing, they don't just turn every dying person they meet; just the ones they think are cute/interesting/destined to be one of their soulmates. The other thing is, it's strongly implied—if not outright stated; it's been a while—that being turned turns you beautiful so you're more attractive to your prey.
  • Can somebody please tell me why Bella has anti-psychic mind shields (or whatever). So, Ed lives for a little less than a hundred years, meeting, at the least, hundreds of people, and our little Anti Sue happens to be the only person who can't be mind read. Why? Is it Achievements In Ignorance? Or just an intolerable Asspull (My knowledge of Twilight was gained from an unfinished Lets Play of the first book and very detailed complaints on the internet, so please forgive me if the answer is already obvious)
    • One of the reasons Sparklepants isn't interested in other women besides Bella (at least going by the Cleolinda Recap of MS)is because he can hear all of their shallow, pervy little thoughts about him, right? Well, seeing as BD ends with Bella-Sue being able to control her mind-shield enough to allow Sparkles to read her mind, won't he realize that she's been thinking almost nothing but those shallow, pervy little thoughts about him? Considering that it was that and the (now gone) magical Freesia scent of her blood that made him attracted to her at all, haven't they pretty much just fucked up their marriage before it even started?
    • Oh but Bella is not stronger and prettier than Edward so they can switch roles and Bella will protect him with his ubber neat shield vampire powers and he will be the one in danger all the time since by vampire standards he will be the clumsy one. And I just laid out the foundations of the next Twilight Saga the first book: Sunlight
    • Now you know what would be funny? Edward mind-reading Bella's Purple Prose and getting annoyed at how bad it is to read.
    • Asspull, plain and simple. Meyer doesn't have the brain power to come up with a real reason for Bella-Sue's magic pony mind tricks.
    • I think I read somewhere that Bella had a private mind (whatever that means.) Still it would had been better if Meyer included in the book and not on her website.
    • ...THAT EXPLAINS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!
    • Here's a theory. Bella's thoughts are so vapid that they don't even show up on Edward's mental scanner
  • One the FIRST FUCKING PAGE, Bella whines about how she hates the cold and just lurves the heat of Phoenix. She then bitches about the cold for the entirety of the book. Yet somehow she's absolutely thrilled with her ice-pop boyfriend who can't even reach room temperature. These two concepts do not mesh, Meyer!
    • Normal vampire-less cold doesn't have muscular arms. Or golden eyes. Like, if a kitten was cold Bella would still snuggle with him or her. Or maybe eat the kitten when she's a vampire.
      • But the difference is that a kitten will eventually warm up if she snuggles with it. This troper seems to recall that the vampires in the series never get warm. Which raises another issue - heat moves into the colder object, doesn't it? So if Bella is constantly cuddling up with Edward, shouldn't she at least be very uncomfortable and at worst suffer ill effects to her health from constantly having the warmth sucked out of her? It would be like cuddling with a human-shaped refrigerator...
      • No, I meant a kitten that was always cold. A kitten is still a cute kitten, was my point.
      • We also need to take in account that its not uncommon to fall in love with persons that were not exactly our type. Sometimes people can get used to or even start to like something just because a person that they love has a trait that you didn't liked it before.
      • I don't understand. Did you mean "even if" instead of "just because"?
      • I meant that you for example may not like blonds and start to date pr have a crush a great girl that happened to be blond and then after that you can start to actually like blonds do to the positive experience you had with the blond.
  • You fail English, Miss Steph. There are these punctuation marks called semicolons; learn how to use them. See what I did there?
  • James bites Bella and his venom gets into her bloodstream. Edward then sucks her blood, like vampires do, and yet somehow this doesn't add more venom into her bloodstream.
    • This is one of the few things actually explained quite well. Biting adds venom. Sucking just removes their blood and kills them.
  • "His face was teasingly outraged." How is that possible? What does a teasingly outraged face look like? In what possible way could Edward have moved his facial muscles to convey both teasing and outrage simultaneously? This is just like that episode of The Mighty Boosh where Howard demonstrates facial expressions like "Cornish Guilt" and "Grief of a Sailor", except there it's played for comedy and here we're meant to swallow it.
    • I just tried to do a "teasingly outraged" face. I think I pulled a muscle. It would have been much better, and much clearer for that matter, If Meyer put "He had a face of mock outrage." At least it seems like she was trying to show that whoever was being jokingly angry.
    • Thank you so much - it occurred to me that maybe she meant mock outrage, but from the context it really didn't seem like that was the case, so we're left with Edward pulling a physically impossible facial expression.
      • I couldn't stop giggling at this conversation and mental image of such a goofy face. Oh, the glee when I tried it out in the mirror!
      • Well, he is a completely awesome sparkly vampire. I bet a he could pull such a face that us mere mortals could not.
      • The sad thing is, Smeyer is being held up as some miracle of the literary world, but you get examples like this where it seems that Smeyer pulled a synonym out of... a thesaurus without realizing that Mock has more than one meaning.
  • Mice and dogs have pups. Rats and cats have kittens. Tigers and wolves have cubs.
  • How big is the Volturi anyways? They are supposed to be the lords of the vampires but they only seem to have 5 people in total. How on Earth do they control the worldwide vampire population, a demographic not know for being peaceful?
    • "The Volturi" can mean either "Aro, Marcus, and Caius" or "the vampires from Volterra." In the latter case, they're pretty much uniformly loyal to Aro, Marcus, and Caius, partly because one of the members of their personal guard, who is loyal to them, has the ability to manipulate interpersonal relationships - i.e. enforcing loyalty.
  • Why would Renesmee age so quickly and why on earth would she have such a high body temperature? And if a hybrid isn't venemous how could Nahuel change his aunt into a vampire? Twilight fans, check out Wikia's wiki for The Vampire Diaries
    • Wait, wait, wait. Her body temperature is HIGHER than Bella's? What the fuck? If anything, a normal human and an icepop should make a lukewarm hybrid, not a fucking torch.
  • The idea that an older male can only relate to a female child if he's intending to bone her when she's old enough bugs the hell out of me. And he's like her father/brother until then? That makes it, like, incest-pedophilia.
    • I think that was already said somewhere in greater depth on this page. It got resolved when someone pointed out that the person a sparklepire imprints on doesn't have to have a romantic relationship with them.
      • Except it's a given to Meyer and her fans that said child will choose to be said adult's lover because "who can resist that kind of devotion?" No, she doesn't have to be the adult's future wife but it's anticipated, encouraged, and expected by everyone around her; this makes it still creepy and dangerous, not to mention sick. Incidentally, you mean the "werewolves," not the sparklepires. They don't imprint; they just have creepy stalker tendencies.
      • I think that is just Edward.
      • Oh, hey... Yeah. That makes it way, way, way worse, too.
  • It bugs me I didn't think of it first.
    • Although being male and not a housewife, my version would probably not be as appealing to the target demographic.
      • Although presumably possessing a level of intelligence greater than that of a melon, your version would probably not be as appealing to the target demographic.
  • Ok, let's look at the facts. Vampires have an uncontrollable lust for blood . . . unless the want to be changed. In Bella's case, she wants to be a vampire like crazy. Thus, she easily ignores blood for most of the time, all of her senses are enhanced by a hundred times, she is absolutely stunning, and she gets to spend the rest of eternity with her wonderful family. Why the fuck would anyone NOT want to be a vampire? "Hey, honey! Let's have a couple of kids really early and then get changed! Then, when the kids are grown, they can get changed too! We can spend eternity together as beautiful vampires who live off animals." The only downsides are losing family (who can be changed) and not getting to eat food again. Come on, food versus perfection in everything you do? It's no fucking contest. Hell, several famous vampires chose to be changed in other works and they didn't even have the advantage of conveniently disappearing blood lust. The entire premise of Twilight is so stupid; there's no reason not to want to be a vampire. Sure, it sucks for the folks already turned and if you want to see dead relatives again, but why not tell the humans what's going down and let them decide for themselves? Oh, sorry, I forgot; no one is worth making happy except Bella.
    • The little fact about the soul losing should make some people weary of changing. I mean they can get killed by dismembering and burning so there still the chance that the lord would have a word or two with them.
    • Couple things. First of all, all the Cullens hate being vampires. Even if they've resigned themselves and have found happiness in their new lives, they still miss being human (except possibly Alice, who doesn't remember what it's like to be human.) So basically, they just want to be normal. Second of all, there are plenty of people who wouldn't want to be a vampire, whether because of the bloodlust or the immortality (because I mean, after a couple hundred years, I know I'd probably just get tired of being alive.) Third, you do have a point with many people wanting to be vampires, but A, in your scenario, I know I'd be a little bit wary of undergoing a change that will make me want to eat my own children, and B, an you imagine what would happen if the vampire population started out-weighing the human one? They would run out of humans and then eat animals and then run out of those, eventually. And then what? And then what if they change the wrong person who gets a kick out of essentially having superpowers and decides that humans aren't worth preserving? You know that person is out there. Oh, and also, a human alone can't kill a vampire. Two humans can't. But I'm pretty sure the whole world could handle it if they worked together, and you just don't know how people would react to Dr. Cullen on the news going "Hey, I'm a vampire. Just if you were wondering." Also, the Volturi, who would worry about an uprising, would not be happy. Also, the wolves, who are admittedly a lesser problem than the Volturi, but still. The point is, it's more complicated than what you layed out.
    • Also Smeyer states that is very difficult for a vampire to stop short of killing a human while sucking his/her blood. She uses the sharks going on a frenzy while eating as the same feelings vampires get when feeding: almost imposible to stop. So even if they would think on growing their population nature themselves had made it too difficult for them. And even on the books there are few vampires that turned people, on the top of my head Carlisle, Aro, Victoria (and we don't know how many failed attempts are buried on the woods) and Edward but he only did it once for Bella. She was once asked how many vampires are on her world and she says is only like 1% of the total population, due to its dificulty.
  • Okay, New Moon trailer. If "vampires" are supposed to sparkle, why doesn't Laurent?
    • They only sparkle in direct sunlight, so if it's overcast he wouldn't be.
  • What's with all the fan theories on Edward X Emmett Ho Yay? Emmett's wife's most commonly noted trait is that she's hot, so it's doubtful he swings that way.
  • My biggest problem with Twilight is that it first promotes abstinence (abstinence is one of the biggest causes of teen pregnancy), and then has the message sent by her vampire baby, which is: Don't ever abort your baby because your baby can already think inside of the womb and looooooovvves you!
    • Forgive me if this is a stupid response, but how does abstinence cause teen pregnancy
      • I'm not the OP but I don't think actual abstinence causes teen pregnancy, trying to raise your kids to be abstinent causes teen pregnancy because they often have no idea about contraception.
      • Actually is the "just abstinence" that causes teen pregnancy. Abstinence and contraception policies do not.
      • Basically, if the only thing you tell kids is "don't have sex" and not, say, "don't have sex, but while we're here, here's some stuff you should use when you get round to it", when some of the kids do find themselves overcome by their libidos, they're gonna go commando, cause they don't know anything else. And then 9 months later...
    • Footnote here, but according to a BBC documentary, due to its exclusive reliance on abstinence education, Texas is "the torn-anus capital of the US", since the kids end up having anal sex to avoid pregnancy. Just a fun mental image of the consequences of abstinence education.
      • Not really related to Twilight, but stille interesting: I'm from Texas, and all, and I mean ALL of our sex ed classes are about abstinence and how much having sex will ruin your life. Seriously. If you have sex, you will become emotionally unstable, depressed, dependent, get kids, a million ST Ds, and child support payments. They don't explain any contraceptives at all. I now think they may be right about the whole sex ruins your life thing. Bella's sure seems pretty screwed up. And another side-note: since our sex-ed classes suck, it is kind of surprising how many people at my HS actually know how to use condoms, and use them regularly. Or even how many people used them in middle and a few even in elementary school. When not doing drugs, which will ruin your life and cause all the side-effects of sex. Texas rules.
  • So you guys hate Twilight so much but lemme ask you this.... why do you all know so much about it? Have you actually read the books and seen the movies? If you answered yes...then Guess who wins? That's right...Stephanie Meyer and her publishers. And the film crew. Because guess what? For all you know, they're trying on purpose to write something because for some odd reason, you all buy the books, read the books, buy the movies, and see the movies. And you did just what they wanted...Congratulations.
    • Moral dilemna. Do I just pull this obvious troll entry, or do I leave it up so we can all mock it as it deserves? I can't decide. But I can snarkily point out that somebody's obviously forgotten about the existence of public libraries.
      • And the internet
      • And lolfans. Not all of us who mock the books disslike them. Some of us think they're funny, and crave more.
      • I, for one, got forced to sit through the film in a class. Never mind that having been exposed to it, we can now more accurately mock its faults.
      • Let's see: borrowing the books off a friend? Zero dollars. Watching the film on an international flight I would have gone on anyway? Zero dollars. Getting to throw it in the face of "fans" who don't know as much as me and getting to have valid arguments for why the series sucks? Priceless. :)
      • Then there are those of us who find it bad in a really fascinating way, or find the popularity fascinating. It can actually be studied and theorized about in the same way really excellent and meaningful books can be, except here, the theories and critiques aren't all that complimentary, are often about the sexism, wish fulfilment, and/or undeserved popularity of the books, and rarely talk about these matters as though they were at all intentional.
      • Or so you think - I took the moral high road, and Pirated it online, and read it on my kindle.
      • Or some people borrowed all the books off of friends/the library and worked at a camp with girls who were obsessed with it, and brought the DVD so that they could watch it over and over.... At least this troper can make valid arguements about it without the stigma of being the "bitch" who didn't read/watch it but hates it anyway.
  • Renesmee grows extremely quickly and will soon reach maturity both physically and mentally. So how will the Cullens reveal her existence to society? And in addition, what excuse will they make about how Bella now looks so stunning?
    • My guess is they will claim to follow Carlisle's tradition of adopting, and say they adopted Reneesme in case anyone suspects that she looks a lot like Edward and Bella. Both can sparkle for the puny humans to dazzle them into buying it. And they will need to sparkle for Jacob since he is not going to age either. And about Bella looking so hot now? Well, she married a rich family. Plastic surgery is just the next logical step.
    • Well, hammer-and chisel surgery anyway.
  • It just bugs me that some Twilight fans would ask Robert Pattinson to DRINK THEIR BLOOD!!!
  • I wish High School Musical was still popular. At least its fandom/story isn't as terrible!
  • I don't know if it's addressed anywhere, but are there other tribes of shapeshifters? Like, clans of were-bears, were-sharks, etc?
    • Gosh, I bet there is fanfiction of this, but I don't read fanfiction, so I've not seen this mentioned before. Now I'd like to see something about this on the Twilight WMG page. Maybe I'll bring it up.
  • It bugs me that people go on about how Edward is bringing chivalry back. In the greenhouse when Bella almost falls over, he snaps "will you watch where you're going?" He laughs at Bella constantly, and not in a friendly way. He barks at her not to make comments on his dangerous driving. He kidnaps her. At no point that I know of does he hold open doors for her, let her go in front of him in a queue, or anything like that. What, pray, is chivalrous about him? Most men I know have way better social skills than him, and yet are never praised for their chivalry. Is it just because he's hot?
    • The movie failed to show most of the chivarly he does, he does holds the doors open, constantly compliment Bella, specially when she is whining about not being pretty enough, he catches her before she falls, he insists of meeting Charlie and being official boyfriend, he also is educated with everyone even people he doesn't like but are friendly to Bella... When he laughed he laughs because he is surprised by her answers he is not meant to be rude, he is just amused since is probably the first time on a century he can't predict anyone's responses, also this is something very special since Bella is the only person that makes him laugh/smiles. That is one of the reasons the she is so accepted by the Cullens, Edward is finally awakening after decades of silence and loneliness. Also if he wouldn't had kipnapped her the first time she would had died and the other times he did was out of concern, Bella shows him the error of his ways he appologizes and never does it again...a
      • I don't know about most people, but I'd much rather my boyfriend not stalk me and treat me like a child than have him open my doors for me. Also, he doesn't "not do it again." He stalks her through her friends' minds in Port Angeles; he continues to do so in school so he knows where she is, and does so again to know what's happened to her in New Moon. He watches her sleep before they date; he continues to do so after they are dating. He treats her like a porcelain child; he continues to do so well into the fourth book, and only stops when she's turned. As many, many of the above issues states, being an abusive, stalking, posessive ass isn't ok just because he does it "out of concern" or because "he loves her."
      • You need to remember that this is not a killable by humans vampire, Bella doesn't have ANY way to protect herself so she is indeed porcelain, like every other human character on the book. He continues to stalk her because she doesn't mind (she actually ask him to come at night at her room) and actually like it. If your boyfriend did something that other people would find weird but you like it, do you think he should stop just because what other people might think? Bella does makes choices that will kill her if Edward was not around, but once he crosses the over protective line (wich is a more accurate word than abusive, IMO)he appologizes stop and try to work out an agreement. To use an example without the context, Buffy was being sexist because all the slayers are women. Context is what is missing on this concerns. Edward is not a human teenage boy, if in the books he was a normal 17 boy stalking his crush, protecting her without any real reason to do so then he would be considered a creep and no one would like him or root to get the girl. But he is a 108 vampire, frozen on 17 years old body, that strugles with protecting a very fragile human girl she loves and wants to kill at the same time and with feelings he never had before, plus the fact that said girl is a stubborn danger magnet wich his best friend is his worst enemy.
      • Almost all of the dangers Bella is ever in come as a direct result of Edward's presence in her life. If he really wanted to protect her, he'd leave her alone. Also, the fact that Edward is a vampire makes his stalking more creepy, not less, because he continually wants to kill her and yet follows her around anyway. That Bella lets him stalk her is precisely why it's so disturbing, because it sends the message that that sort of thing is okay. Plus, he stalks her without her knowledge initially. If Edward really wanted to protect people, he could act as a sort of superhero to protect the people in general, rather than just exhibiting psychotic behaviour towards Bella. Edward is not a chivalrous hero, he's a superpowered Criminal Minds villain.
      • He DOES try to leave her alone. The entirety of New Moon is based on this. It ends well for no one.
      • Keyword almost, she had may fractures already before Edward came into her life and other vampires has smelled her and found her yummy. That only means that she was meant to be vampire meal long before they meet. And if Edward wouldn't had followed Bella she would had been raped and killed on the first book. I think the stalking is portrayed as okay because is the way Smeyer moved the plot in many instances and the part that it sent any message is another YMMV, since I never though it was nothing more than a plot point to show more about their relationship since they are at the best when they are together and we get a glimpse of vampire world and its differences with older myths. Edward is not supposed to portray a superhero he is one of the good guys with superpowers which is not the same thing, even though he does protects people in general sometimes, when he is not saving Bella: in Midnight Sun he sent the rapists that tried to attack Bella to jail with the help of Carlisle to make sure that no one would be raped/killed by them, you can't blame the character for the things its not supposed to do, this is not a superhero in love with a human story after all. I mean I always though that Carlisle shouldn't be so open minded about having vampire friends that feed on human, but I understand that it wouldn't work with the universe they are portraying and with a lot of plots. I mean they would had agree to turn Bella more quickly if they had to protect other people instead of them. You know another missing thing on S Meyer books it would had been interesting if one of the friends vampires would had feed on one of Bella's friends. That would had make an interesting drama for them to talk about.
      • Uh, case in point. The only reason Bella was wondering around Port Angeles was because she was researching Edward. It's unlikely she would have gone at all if she didn't want to buy that book and, if she did, she would have stayed at the store and been fashionably bored the whole time.
      • The fact that he saved her life doesn't excuse Edward's actions, plain and simple. That it is played as an excuse is very jarring when you have in-depth knowledge of too-similar real life cases (Hint: they don't have happy endings.). I think it would be more appropriate to say the circumstances are different because it's fantasy fiction, not different because he is a vampire. It doesn't matter how old or vampire-y Edward is. He's not the type of boy girls should think is good boyfriend material. On top of it, he's as dangerous as what he's protecting Bella from, so it's hard to use his protection as justification.
      • The fact that Edward is a vampire and vampires are not real, implies this is a fantasy fiction where his action makes sense with the rest of the universe on the books. The thing is that just because we get it on the universe, means that we are applying the same standards to real life people or that people that where into this situation and failed to see the wrong on them did it out of a book they read. I think blaming works of fiction into people's behaviors is kind of unfair and at worst insulting when you have a lot of works of fiction glorifying violence and the use of women as objects directed at male audience and no one says that they are going to torture people or treat women like crap, but girls are so weak minded that a set of books would ruin their chances at good relationships...Back on topic: When he realized that he was too dangerous for Bella, he tried to leave that didn't worked out,for any of them, by the third book he is completely in control of this thirst so he was not longer a threat to Bella's life from that moment on.
      • I never said anything about the influence of books on the decisions people make. All I said was that fiction should be treated as just that. You admit that it isn't something to compare to reality. Even so, you are still attempting to justify Edwards actions in a flawed way.
      • And because is fiction universe it should be judge by the universe this actions develop. Not by real life standards. That is not flawed, is logical. Edward's actions contributed to move the plot allong.
      • Edward's decision that he needed to protect Bella against her will (or knowledge, as the case may be) was wrong. It is not his place to decide whether he "protects" her by stalking her. Even if she agreed to it when she knew about it, she didn't even know anything for weeks. It was wrong of him to break into her house, it was wrong of him to follow her, and it was wrong of him to treat her like a child. As an above-poster said, that she likes it is worse. Also, I don't know what you read, but I don't care for any literature that glorifies violence against women outside of the canon. A Square treats women harshly, but it's satire. Meyer TRULY BELIEVES, and tells her fans, that Edward is a romantic, wonderful guy; this is not just the canon. She's purporting his creepy, horrible behavior as a good thing, outside of the story.
      • So let someone die if you can stop it is wrong? I read everything that I can pass the first page. I disagree that just because Bella is a classical Distressed Damsel, Too Dumb To Live and Edward is Stalker With A Crush, means that is glorifying violence against women. Again a work of fiction using Older Than Dirt tropes, so I jugde the canon itself. I got a couple of friends that hate Bella risking her life to hear Edward's thoughs for example but likes the books. Doesn't that show you that some people might not perceive it in the same way without meaning that personally they would imitate destructives behaviours on RL? and I also got a bunch of male friends that adore and admired the life of James Bond/Tony Stark/Captain Kirk, with the whole obssesing over them included, it doesn't mean IMO that they are going to sabotage real relationships because a fictional character's life appeal to them. I think the same standards should be applied to both genders.
      • Saving someone one time from a careening van is one thing, actively stalking them "in case something should happen," without their knowledge or consent (and when they have survived for years without your help and you are actually the most dangerous thing to them), is another. No one is saying you shouldn't help people, but stalking them "for their own good" is deciding for them whether they are "safe" enough for YOUR standards.
      • And if this were the real world where that kind of behaviour doesn't make any sense and often indicates less than nobles intentions, I would totally agree with you. But on the books Edward Stalking Is Love is used as a plot device/trope to move the plot allong, to keep the leading lady derriere's safe and to allows many other things to happen, so I say it makes sense on the context. You can say that the trope is horrible and/or that you never liked it on any other work of fiction, but is not like Smeyer invented it...
      • The only situation in which Edward saved Bella from a danger not caused by Edward himself was the van incident, and that would have happened whether or not he'd been stalking her. In any case, if any vampires were headed to Forks, the Cullens should be able to sense them using their super special awesome superpowers. There is no non-perverse reason for Edward to watch Bella sleep at night.
      • Actually, the rapist guys in Port Angeles weren't his fault. Don't get me wrong, he shouldn't have been stalking her, but at least he was able to save Bella from the rapists, whose presence were not his fault.
      • In Midnight Sun Edward account of the event show that if he wouldn't had been paying attention to Bella,he wouldn't had foreseen Tyler's van almost crushing her to death and he might not even saved her. Also the books establish that Bella is indeed a Weirdness Magnet, plus her sweet scented blood, plus her newly born werewolves friends, her own lack of self preservation...Oh well its like she escaped from The Final Destination movies. The Cullens cannot see all the vampires heading to Forks, if that were the cause it wouldn't had taken that long to find Victoria and the newborn vampires or find out that one of them was on Bella's room. The watching her sleep at night by Edward is part of the vampire in love with a human twist, instead of visiting her room to suck her dry, he goes to visit her to resist to kill her. Its a plot point and a trope as well used on other works of fiction and specially with vampires.
      • It is playing with the trope, but not in a very nice way. If this were meant to be creepy instead of romantic it would be an interesting idea. Cleolinda Jones mentioned that if Bella and Edward were kinky enough to get off on the creepiness it wouldn't hurt anything. But it is presented as beautiful, non-creepy, true love, and it just doesn't look like that from a non-kinky standpoint.
      • First the trope has been used on many other works of fiction as beautiful and true love. Second is very interesting to me to me that many people had told me this, that it would be okay if Bella were having orgasm over the stalking, because sex is a personal matter and if the involved are consenting and satisfied, no one should jugde (wich I totally agree, BTW), but why can we jugde a couple's idea of love?! I mean isn't love a personal matter as well? and if the involved are satisfied with the way they love each other (no matter how we feel about it) shouldn't be held on the same standards of sex or any other personal matter like religion or political inclinations?
      • One (1) I dislike this trope played romantically in all literature. It makes my willing suspension of disbelief go kaput. Two (2) Your logic becomes flawed when you realize we are talking about fictional characters, not real people who are able to make their own choices (i.e. I wouldn't be saying what happens in the book is okay at all if it was real people.). On that subject, if you want to start treating this like it is real, you can bury the rest of your excuses after my first answer, which was this: I accept this sort of relationship only in fiction, because real life stories of the exact same nature are dangerous and end in tragedy. So, argue all you want, it comes down to YMMV.
      • I'm confused...Of course this is only acceptable because is not real life. I mentioned the real life example because you mentioned the sex one and I was curious as to way sex would really make so much of a diference for many antis since is not the first time I heard this logic. And like I said I like this trope depending on the story. I think in this story works the way it was portrayed and it didn't interfered on my suspension of disbelief. I guess is like The Police song Every breath you take. I had a friend that hated it, other that loved it. I'm kind of neutral to it, is just a song.
      • My point isn't about the sex. It's about how Meyer wrote what should be creepy as something romantic. I'll give you two examples to demonstrate why I can't suspend my disbelief for their relationship. 1. Creepy/Kinky version of Bella: "Oooo... It's so wrong that the tall, handsome vampire is stalking me... unf." 2. Twilight Bella: Aww, you were stalking me because you love me. It doesn't bother me at all, and I won't address why it was a very bad thing to do, let alone remember that it even happened." ...You see? It makes it look like Meyer wasn't considering the same things Bella didn't.
      • He has no reason to do so, however. Up until the other vampires show up, there's no danger for Bella at night, except from HIM. The bad vampires haven't seen (or smelled) her yet. She was able to sleep alone for seventeen years without killing herself. He's just being creepy. Afterward, yeah, maybe she needed to be protected. But he started watching her months before the other vampires show up and months before she even knows he's doing it (and thus can give him permission). Also, just because other people do something doesn't mean it's right.
      • She lived on Phoenix for seventeen years, where there were not werewolves or vampires. And it looks she hardly made it, counting all her old fractures. Edward is overworried but that is in character with him. The other people do something mean other people use this trope? Like I said the Stalking Is Love has been used before, what amuses me is the overreaction to it on TL. Is hardly the last time it would be used by any other writer.
      • Once again, she DID survive without Edward. Doing so on a string doesn't negate that she did. Besides, The werewolves are her friends and the bad vampires probably wouldn't have smelled her at all if she hadn't been at the baseball game. They only met her when she was with the Cullens. If she had been at home that day, weeping about how horrid it is to be "plain," the bad vampires would have moved on at Carlisle's request that they not screw up the Cullens' setup. Bella would have remain the delicate flower in the tower.
      • The overreaction from me is because MEYER is saying it's romantic. This is not values dissonance from a hundred years ago. She is not a repressed Victorian housewife, though she is a Mormon one. I personally am so incensed because I have had intelligent, rational women tell me Edward's actions are romantic and sweet. I have never had anyone tell me so about Dracula, Frankenstein, or Humbert Humbert.
      • Meyer's Mormonism is irrelevant, I don't know why people keep feeling the need to bring it up.
      • Well Smeyer can say mass if she wants to. I guess the fact that this rational, intelligent women agreeing with her are what really bothers you. I guess is the fact that probably this women and Smeyer are using the context to find the story romantic and is not your type of story. I remember a tale of women watching Dracula 70's version with Christopher Lee and yelling "bite me" at the screen and this was not a in love vampire so really is up to taste and likings and Smeyer didn't invented it.
  • "Sometimes you talk like you're from a different time". WHEN!? FFS, I use more Antiquated Linguistics than he does.
  • I've met a fan or two who try to justify imprinting as "a form of love that doesn't have to be romantic," despite the fact that the books are pretty clear that that is the ENTIRE POINT of imprinting. No, imprinting is NOT just finding someone you love and want to be around; it's not just a form of filial or platonic love, no matter how you try to ignore the implications. Imprinting is to continue the species, which inherently means that there will be sex—if said imprinting includes a child, it IS pedophilia (specifically child-grooming, which doesn't include sex at first but is used to have sex later), whether you like it not. Deliberately ignoring that aspect of the series so you can draw cuddly pictures and write sappy stories of "Uncle" Quil and Claire (and then insist that they're just close friends) just makes you willfully ignorant and perpetuating a disgusting train of thought.
    • Actually, I think it was explicitly stated by someone, probably Sam or possibly Billy but maybe someone else, that they just didn't know enough about imprinting to be sure what it was for, and the "continuing the species thing" was a theory that many characters happened to believe. Also, with Nessie's half-human-half-vampire genes, it's not implausible that she's infertile, much like a mule. So if imprinting is really just about continuing the species, then the fact that Jacob imprinted on Renesmee makes absolutely no damn sense.
      • Back to this. Why would a fertile male on the peak of his life imprint on a female that will need decades to actually reproduce? It makes no sense! It should had been with a female that was also on the peak of her fertility so the genes can get passed before one of them die or grow to old to mate. Waiting its just daft and not the way nature preserve the best genes. I hope Smeyer is just messing with us the way she messed with vampires can get pregnant and explain how the imprinting supposedly works.
    • I agree Nessie will reach certain age and froze in it much like full vampires do, so there is no way she can get pregnant. Smeyer whether forgot her own canon, didn't payed attention or didn't really told us what the hell imprinting was for.
    • I don't liked the imprinted business either but I think they meant that it was more like Jail Bait Wait. I don't think SM that they were going to have him to start a sexual relationship with a two year old, if is indeed for reproduction its not practical as well.
      • But that's not my problem on this issue (though I do hate imprinting for that reason as well). Some fans try to deny that there is ANY sexual connotations to imprinting at all, and that it's just a way to know your friends/family. It's not. The entire point of imprinting is to find one's future mate/wife/sex partner. When fans say "no it's not" and try to say they're "just friends for life," it shows how twisted the story is that its own fans have to consciously ignore the point of a major plot point so they don't get grossed out.
      • This fans are wrong, but don't be so hard on Smeyer or the books over how people interpret it. I fought for Snape on Harry's side for a long time and a big part of the fan base never saw it that way and I still know some that still don't saw it that way and consider it an Ass Pull on part of JK. Is just the human mind at work.
    • Hell, Jacob himself points out that Quil has years to go before Claire is his age. Why would that matter if she wasn't intended to be his mate?
  • On imprinting: "Who can resist that level of devotion?" Lots of people, Meyer. Most people find clingy, oversensitive, possessive Nice Guys(TM) just as off-putting as negligent assholes.
  • Leah. She was great during Jacob's section of Breaking Dawn, and instantly becomes a Brother Chuck after Bella becomes the narrator again. Did Meyers not realize that she could just Pair The Spares using her to resolve Jacob X Bella, especially since they hit it off so well for a while, rather then do such a squicky Cleaning Up Romantic Loose Ends?
    • I TOTALLY agree with this it was the most logical outcome. They both share the pain of getting their hearts broken out of a bond stronger than love, they are both werewolves, willing to defy their comrades if needed, they could have had a nice ending defying the idea that only soulmates can achieve happiness and trying to have a semi normal relationship, they didn't even had to kiss and make up a simple "let's have a date" or "give it a try" would had worked like a charm. I wonder if she rewrote that pairing later on. Maybe she wanted to make sure that the werewolves will remain allies to the Cullens and the only way she could think it would work in this world was Jacob imprinting on Reneesme. Now if they do the BD movie I would be okay if they Rewrite and have Jacob loving Reneesme because is Bella's daughter, (not imprinting) puts asides his problems with Edward (He needs to see that the treaty was meant to protect innocent humans not to force willing ones not to become sparklepires) and he and Leah end up at least holding hands.
      • I think the canon is creepy as anyone here, but Jacob/Leah obviously had no chance of happening. Jacob wouldn't be a part of the love triangle that Meyer clearly had so much fun writing if it wasn't for the imprinting thing, and because Leah can't have children, Meyer wouldn't pair her up with Jacob.
      • I think most of us are saying that she should have written it as Jacob/Leah, and skipped the cruddy love triangle. I know I would loved to read more about Leah that didn't make her out to be a bitch.
    • Meyer is actually considering writing a book from Leah's point of view, so I guess her story doesn't just end there. The only way I can stomach the imprinting thing is by convincing myself that Jake later overcomes it and chooses Leah over a fully grown Nessie. Maybe the fact that Renesmee's dad is a psychotic overprotective stalker who can read minds might be able to scare him out of it.
      • I read an awesome fanfiction to this exact tune. Jake is disgusted with himself, Leah is bitter, and they say "fuck it" and go for it. The story ended with this decision, but I think a whole series could be written.
      • Link please?
    • I think she also said she would use the POV of Reneesme (aka Bella 2.0) as well. I just hope she is not planning another dreadful love triangle.
      • No kidding? This troper has a feeling that book will be ten times better than the whole Twilight Series... provided Meyer can avoid too much Wangst... But then, Leah's Wangst is justified anyway.
      • I personally thought her writing in Jacob's voice was a hundred times more tolerable than for Bella. Hell, even Edward's point of view was entertaining in an "Dear lord, this guy is a psycho!" way.
      • I recall the other human/vampire hybrid musing on Nessie being the only other such creature who wasn't related to him, so maybe Meyer will trump herself and make it a love-square.
  • Edward kisses Bella and HER HEART STOPS. HER HEART STOPS. Seriously, that is called a heart attack, not "true love."
  • HOLY CROW?
    • This troper used that even before the books came out. I have no idea why it's less indecent or crude than "holy crap".
      • I actually have a problem with it because I've never heard of anyone (outside of the above troper and, now, Twilight fans) using it and, given how Bella is written, it comes off as a cheap attempt to make her sound "deep" and "unique," instead of just using "Holy Cow" like pretty much every other PG author out there.
      • I've heard my dad say "holy crow." I don't think it's any more pretentious than, say, "holy smoke" would be; it's just another variation of the phrase, with which some people are apparently unfamiliar.
  • I looked up the half-draft of Midnight Sun, or Twilight Remix ala Edward's perspective. One line so far has stood out among the rest: "Unlike most humans, her own needs were far down the list. She was selfless." What? WHAT? How the flipping FUCK is Bella Swan, Miss "I'm ditching my family to be a vampire" selfless? She disses and insults her family and friends (silently, to other people, AND to their faces), disses the town she came from and disses the town she's in now. She puts the ENTIRE town of Forks in mortal peril, including her father, the Cullens, and the dozens of people who are-for some unfathomable reason-obsessed with her (and completely ignores this fact when faced with the prospect of leaving Edward). She rejects FOUR boys in the most wishy-washy, hurtful ways despite all of them being perfectly decent and interesting guys (but none of them are the ADONIS EDWARD). Bella Swan is the most selfish "heroine" I've read.
    • As another note, I find it incredibly presumptuous that Smeyer writes that Edward only seems to read selfish and unkind thoughts, as shown in the line "unlike most humans . . .” Yes, humans have a tendency to be selfish and think about themselves or mean thoughts, but SO DOES BELLA. Bella doesn't spend every waking moment thinking of ways to better her world; she spends every waking moment whining and thinking about how cute Edward is. Bella is as selfish, if not more so, than any other person in the book-her ACTIONS are selfish, not just her thoughts. Conveniently, Edward can't read her selfish thoughts (and never acknowledges her selfish actions) and remains blissfully unaware that his girlfriend is just as much as a bitch as anyone else. Bella doesn't volunteer or give to charity; hell, she doesn't even have any goals past spending eternity with Edward. Twilight could have had such a good angle if Bella DID have dreams or goals, and had to decide to be with Edward or give up her life. Her complete dismissal of her entire being (including her family, friends, and the shallow hobbies Meyer tries to pass off as talents) is both harmful to readers and poor writing.
  • It bugs me that Bella's relationship with Edward is so filled with anxiety all the time. Surely that's the exact opposite of what a good relationship should be? Bella is constantly feeling inferior to Edward looks-wise and worrying that she's becoming older than he is. Edward's constantly worrying about his desire for her blood. Why would you want to be in a relationship like that?
    • Someone mentioned that above. A relationship should not constantly be about how miserable and tense you both are. Sure, a little excitement is normal. Evens some anxiety is fine, since you are just getting used to each other. But Bella and Edward never relax around each other, even into the last book and after two years. She's always, always angsting over how boring/plain she is compared to him, and he's always, always angsting over how conflicted/dangerous he is. If you aren't comfortable in your lover's presence after a few months, there's something wrong.
    • My take on this is that one of the fantasy elements of their romance is that it is unrealistically consistently exciting and angst-filled. That would be tiresome and unhealthy in reality. But like adventure fantasy, where the reader isn't experiencing firsthand the turbulence of the real thing and fantasizes about going on a dangerous adventure (Where fighting the monster in real life would get a person injured for example.), girls read these books and fantasize about having a super-exciting relationship (Where both participants would become emotionally exhausted in real life.).
  • I realize Seattle is supposed to be the rain capital of the world and notorious for its weather. But is Washington really under near perpetual overcast in real life, where only a small handful of days are sunny?
    • This was mentioned near this top of this page. From that, the answer is: No.
  • Guess the Twitards aren't the only ones who are absolutely fucking nuts. If the story is true, then a proof about how many Twihaters are just as crazy, if not MORE than Twitards and Twimoms. And if it's all invented, then they're still crazy and have LOTS of time in their hands to invent such stories.
    • Because this is equivalent to death threats and throwing acid in people's faces. I'm willing to bet that that was just an extremely well-done troll on the Twitards. Either way, it's kinda funny (and I bet there are fans who have really done that anyway).
    • You know those reports are not verified right?
    • Some aren't, but there's far more evidence suggesting their truth. Given that Robert Pattinson himself has horror stories of fans and has stated he's scared somebody may inject him with a needle, and therefore give him HIV... well, it makes it a lot harder to doubt the acid stories and others. When Pattinson starts talking about people attacking him yelling "DIE EDWARD," then we can talk about haters being crazier than fans.
    • The fact that Rpatz is afraid of whatever crazy things the fans do doesn't validate any of the others reports. Facts validate facts.
      • May not validate them, but it sure gives them a lot more veracity...
      • Not necessarily. People will believe what they want to believe, even if it's the more stupid shit ever. And since many (though not all) antis want to believe they're so much better than fans, they will believe whatever crap about the fans thast they're fed.
      • Uh... what? You're making no sense. Your own statement is "facts validate facts" but so far you seem to want to assume that all anti-fans are crazy but none of the fans are. Never minding that gross generalization, the facts so far are that there are far more accounts of fans being crazy than antis, and the people most closely involved with the series seem to believe this as well. The only conclusion one can make is that it's far more likely that fans are crazy. There is absolutely nothing proving that the original story you posted is real, other than word of mouth and pictures- which can be easily done by anybody with some time to spare and a digital camera. But yet, even if this is true, it's an isolated incident, and certainly one of the first stories of its kind I've ever heard of. But yet by your own words, this apparently means that this one person apparently makes most, if not all antis, crazier than fans. I'm afraid I don't see any logic in that. If it's true, then yes, that person is crazy. If it's not, yes, it was kind of pointless to spend that much time on, even if it was funny. But you cannot automatically point to this as fact of all haters being crazy and at the same time totally dismiss the multitudes of reports of fan insanity which have far more evidence pointing to their reality than this incident does. Not to mention, antis don't automatically assume every fan-craziness tale is true. Take a look at the Twilight Sucks website, they have whole archives of stories that are obviously fake or can't be verified, so don't pull that "believe whatever crap they're fed" stuff.
      • I'm the one facts validate facts the other poster is refering to something diferent. I don't know if the antis believe they are better or I didn't even questioned me that. I just want to acknowlegde that both sides have extreme people but it doesn't mean that the craziers are better if they happen to agree with you. Crazy/mean/trolling is bad no matter wich sides does it, IMO. PS another anti entered our forums and called us fat, bored who*** that like Edward because not even a pervert will touch us in real life...Yeah so funny. Since when hatedom became a healthy hobbie? Is there a magazine with instructions or so?
      • Ah, you were another person? Sorry, ignore that remark then. Yes, it's bad on either side, but the point is, it still happens more often with the fans than non-fans. Apologies to what happened to your forums, for the most part anti-Twilighters tend to avoid that. The Twilight Sucks site doesn't condone that kind of behavior (specifically telling people to not go and troll people at New Moon) and while Anti-Shurtugal was mainly for panning Eragon, it also panned Twilight, and the person who ran that site got mighty pissed off when she heard people were vandalizing books. For the most part, yes, people would prefer to stick to their own sites, and the people who take it way too far ruin it for everyone (for what it's worth, the majority of fans I know in person are great friends of mine and totally sane).
      • Don't appologize you didn't do it. I visit the antisites that are reasonable and have clever jokes so I don't hold all antis are borderline sociopaths. Actually the hatedom interest me a lot because is really strange that people can find entertaiment in hate...I mean pure vitriolic hate and feel pleasure on picking on people. It totally baffles me, I mean if people use the internet to show their true faces then a lot of people have a lot of anger. I can get people getting obssesed over something they love (Im a fangirl after all) and spent their free time gushing about it with like minded other people, but hating? Why? I can't wrap my head around it.
      • Generally, venting. People who have friends or loved ones, or are forced by circumstances to frequently be exposed to someone who gush(es) about it, but personally dislike it immensely and find it puerile, poorly written, and with a tone and message more harmful to society than the latest Transformers movie. Since they cannot say something to the person they know- or have, and it hasn't worked- they resort to raging and complaining about it on the internet for venting and catharsis purposes.
      • But how much catharsis could one person find on visiting fansites (plagued by minors ones specially) and offend them? Isn't that bullying?
    • Wow. I'm an anti, but that's just mean if it's true. I doubt it is, though. As I said much earlier on this page, it's pretty unlikely that any of the more extreme anti/fan horror stories are true. Most people, believe it or not, just want to be left alone to complain/gush on the internet.
      • I fully agree with you, Above Troper. Nyx does NOT symbolise Twilight Sucks on a whole. I think that Nyx did something terrible, and should be chastised accordingly. And I REGULARLY peruse the forum.
  • Little towns are not all full of hicks who obsess over the new girl for months. I'll concede that she'd probably be the "hot new thing" for a week or two but, after getting to know her and finding out what a cold fish she is, no one would care after a short while. Bella is—to her own admission—boring and plain, and she doesn't even try to act like she gives a crap or wants anything to do with Forks. Why in the world would anyone care about her at all? In real life, she'd fade into the background of the school and spend all her time in the library. In the books, though, everyone wants to know what's going on with Perfect Snowflake Bella in every book, even unto her absolutely perfect wedding.
    • Exactly! This troper could see everyone being interested in Bella if she were very eccentric or bizarre or outgoing or something, but she isn't. She spends all of her time trying to blend in. And she acts as if everything about her - her black jacket, her pale skin, her name - are so completely out of place there and cause everyone to stare. How would any of those things be any cause for confusion? Does Meyer think teenagers in Forks don't wear black jackets? If it's as cloudy as is made out, wouldn't everyone if not a large portion of the people be very pale? And why would the name "Isabella" be that strange anywhere in the United States? It's not like it's that strange of a name.
  • There was actually POTENTIAL for a good plot point in the first book which was totally wasted. Bella can smell blood when she shouldn't be able to, her mind can't be read, she seems more suetiful all of a sudden, all you need to do is tie in her clumsiness somehow and you have a good mysterious supernatural side to her. This troper was disillusioned when his sister told him this was never developed in any way.
    • Heck, there was plenty of potential with the Cullens! Consider, most of them are from different places and eras, and grew up in different stations in life. Think of all of the opportunities to explore, how each of them deals with the new fads and inventions as the years pass, how the middle class girl deals with the girl who was locked in an asylum, how new additions to the family adjust, how Alice perfected her prediction abilities to get them money from the stock market, all of the different places they've been to, how they all had to adjust after they met people, having to watch humans they got to know grow old and die, etc. But nothing comes of any of that! Instead, all we ever learn about them is somehow connected to the Edward/Bella romance or a romance of some sort (Alice/Jasper, Rosalie/Emmett, etc) and the Cullens interact with virtually no one who is human besides Bella. It makes them very unlikable and wastes a lot of good opportunities.
    • Again this is a romance, not adventure, not social exploration, not superhero comic books or GN. The romance genre revolves around the main couple and how they get their happy ending. Its like wanting to read the health properties and history of the onions on a cookbook. They will mention the onions when the recipes needs it, but the info about it is irrelevant for a cookbook. You can thing it would be better for the story to had been different, but it was not what the story is about neither it was sold as anything else but a romance.
    • I think the marketing is to blame. This is a love story with a vampire twist in it. Not a vampire story with a love twist in it. The love story is the center of the book. Its like HP books are centered about Harry and Voldemort and how it was going to end for both...but of course better written.
    • This Troper was gearing up for the inevitable reveal that Bella was *already* a vampire - a Psivamp. She's admired by everyone because she feeds off them and it gives them a mental connection, making everyone partially renfield towards her. She can't be read because of her vampire nature. She's very pale because she's a vampire.
  • A great deal of people say things like "only teen girls are allowed to like this" and, as stated somewhere above, Twilight "could have been written by a 14 year old". I always end up lumped in with them. Argh.
  • The fact that people in the books seem to have uniform tastes in men and women. Every man apart from Charlie has the primary goal of bedding Bella, and every (human) female wants to bed Edward. No-one is that attractive. Some men don't like Megan Fox, some women don't like Brad Pitt. No person is attractive to everyone. Especially since paleness, while Fetish Fuel for plenty, is definitely a turnoff for others.
  • Has anyone else noticed that the plot starts and the 'romance' stops almost exactly 2/3 of the way through the book in every single one?
  • How many people are still in High School? at your High School do they have the posters of the "Top Signs of an Abusive Relationship"? Unforetunatly this troper can't remember what exactly the posters say, but among the warning signs include...
    • They "Makes Disrespectful Remarks:" (Edward is shown as laughing at Bella, and insulting her, etc.)
    • They have a "Controlling Personality" Edward wants to control her friends (he destroys her car)!, control where she goes, and he is always watching her.
      • A subtrope of this is that they "Try to isolate you by demanding you cut off social contacts and friendships." Again: He destroys her car.
    • They have mood swings, as can be best demonstrated by this paraphrasing of Edwards lines.
    "You smell good"
    "I want to eat you- literally"
    "I'm leaving you. Because I love you, obviously."
    "I love you."
    "I do."
    "Get an abortion."
    • They Buy expensive presents to make the other person feel like they 'owe' the abuser. He gets her a car. A really nice car. To protect her.
    • Your boyfriend/girlfriend acting jealous or being possessive toward you. *Do I really have to explain this one?"
    • "They claim you are responsible for his or her emotional state" Edwards again (paraphrased, sorry!)
    You're addicting, and you smell good. It's all your fault that I want to kill and/or eat you.
    • You leave and then return to your partner repeatedly, against the advice of your friends, family and loved ones. Both Jacob and Bella's father think it would be a good idea for Bella to leave Edward. (Among others). Unfortunatly, Jacob screws it up by molesting Bella, and her Dad is a dickweed and he's okay with it. Yay.
    • And, of course, the question" "Does your partner push, hit, slap, punch, kick, or bite you or your children?"
      • I am abrigeding the following conversation directly below, because it is bitter on one side, both use run-on sentences, and most of the discussion can be read above in earlier additions at the top, and in the middle of this page:
      • I don't agree with the idea that people are gullible enough to mimic what they see in the movies.
      • Edward is abusive and tries to force Bella to have an abortion. That is cruel and abusive of her human rights. Even with such obvious abusive traits, Edward is meant to be a perfect boyfriend.
      • I disagree that there is anything wrong with forcing someone to have an abortion if it saves her life.
      • More that is problematic about Edward that can be seen in earlier discussions on this page, such as Edward being over-controlling of Bella and thinking of ways to kill her.
      • Edward tried to keep Bella away from him, but she made the choice to stay around. He isn't a bad person. He thinks about killing because he is a vampire.
      • I'm not arguing that struggling with murderous impulses makes Edward a bad person; I'm saying that it's disturbing that this doesn’t bother Bella. There's an episode of Criminal Minds where the team meets a boy who, while clearly a well-intentioned person, is having fantasies about murdering prostitutes. As explored in the episode, the correct course of action is to get him serious therapy. Not try to have sex with him. Edward never "found out" that Jacob wasn't dangerous; he just spontaneously changed his mind. The bungeeing with a broken rope analogy doesn't work; the wolves never harmed or tried to harm Bella. And even if there was a risk, it's a risk Bella has a right to take. It's up to her, not him.
      • The setup in Twilight is that the "Beauty" needs to tame the untamable "Beast". You need to take in account that this happens just after he though Bella was dead for 24 hours; he finds out that her best friend is a werewolf, his natural enemy, which have trouble controlling themselves in the first months. He makes a mistake by acting on his strong feelings, and he apologized when he saw he had done wrong. The book is about Edward fighting his vampire impulses.
      • Edward being a vampire is not an excuse. The point is that after Edward went to such great lengths to indicate to Bella that he's a barely restrained killing machine, she should have refused to have anything to do with him. He tells her that Emmett met two people whose blood smelled really good to him, and he killed them. Bella doesn't care.
      • Smeyer even says Edward makes huge mistakes but he tries hard to straighten up.
      • The difference is, Bella has her whole life ahead of her. She could easily meet someone nice (like Mike, say), and not deal with the vampires. If she died, think of the effect that would have had on her friends and family. Bella has no reason to throw her life away like she does.
      • Bella now has a whole immortality ahead of her, she will have a devoted husband, a nice immortal family, money and luxury beyond her wildest dreams, all the time in the world to pursue whatever she wants to at any given moment, she is going to be beautiful, loved, not clumsy anymore, and she became the protector of her loved ones after it. I don't think she threw her life away, she threw her humanity away, which is different, and you might have an issue with it, but I don't think the books come across to say that the vampire's life is worst than the human one. Also Bella pretty much wrote Mike out the moment he showed interest. Bella doesn't like normal people.
      • All this troper was trying to point out was that people who have read the books tend to classify this as 'romantic', and if they end up in a relationship with an abusive boyfriend/girlfriend/husband/wife whatever, they might justify it with "Well, That's how Edward behaved with Bella- so it's okay." <firstperson>And don't tell me that I'm just being a "Hater"- I've seen it.</firstperson>
      • I don't think if people staying in abusive relationships make the books bad, it makes SOME people idiots.
      • Arguably abusive relationships are more common than witchcraft. But never mind that, this troper agrees that readers should be given a bit more credit. The problem this troper personally has is that Bella doesn't do a thing about any of this. This troper can't help but feel that a lot of the abusive relationship arguments would lose weight if Bella seriously stood up to Edward, told him "enough is enough" about something, and then stood by that argument. Plus, she is flattered to find out that some guy she hardly knows has been breaking into her room without her knowledge or consent. Given the fact that he's constantly going on about how he's a hair's breadth from eating her and the fact that he is stalking her and breaking in and entering, this troper found Bella's reaction just disturbing.
      • I don't think is a matter of what its more common but what an specific social group fears the most. For all the BS I had to endure with HP (still do by my extremely catholic friends), there is little concern for them over the relationship per se, they are more concerned over Volterra looking a lot like the vatican or the fact that the lead hero is a vampire (God forsaken creature and all that). I also have many issues with the series and with the way the leads behave, but I really think taking things out of context or acusing them of "corrupting our youth" is not the best way to proof any point.
      • I'm done with the abridging because I don't even know what this has to do with the conversation after this point.
      • Original Troper here, apparently I stepped on a couple of people's feelings, so I'll restate the point I was trying to make:
      • It just bugs me that there is enough that happens in the books that it could potentially be seen as an abusive relationship, where it is obviously a healthy one based on mutual respect, and True Love, and it's even better then those other books, you know- like the one with the pirates, "True Love", revenge, and sea monsters, or the one with the developed world, complex plots, realisitc charecters, and fathers who don't let other people molest their daughters.
      • Okay sorry if I looked offended, just got carried it on, and currently we have a who will win between Edward Cullen Vs Harry Potter (so far we are on stalemate that Harry wins on a prepared match, but Edward wins if is sudden fight), wich house would Bella being in (Hupplepuff, don't ask), and wich ending satisfied you the most HP or BD (HP wins hands down), on one of our fansites so there are plenty of HP fans that are also TL fans and know both books in deep. Fandoms shouldn't have to be exclusive. We should unite and take over the world!!! MWA HA HA HA! -on
      • I shall point out that The Princess Bride is satire, and those quotation marks around True Love are essentially canon. There's a link to a video of an (intelligent) anti ranting about how Meyer didn't understand that, either.
      • Throw in the Enchanted Forest Chronicles, and Avatar The Last Airbender (for the lulz), and you have yourself a deal. XP
      • The rest of this discussion can be found here. XP
  • How can someone who can read minds be so socially inept?
    • Because he's special...?
    • He mentions a lot about how much different are to know things than to experiment them. Its like a person reading many books, about a subject he/she might gather a lot of theoretical knowledge but once you actually go to the practice you can see there is a huge difference. He knows about thoughts , and assumes he knows everything about humans out of them, but doesn't know about feelings, since is the first time on everything, the first time he falls in love and get close to a human, he has lived with his fellow indestructible family for decades, so he never had to worry about the safety of a loved one before, or jealousy, or a woman that is not bound to the costumes of his times and so on...
  • Everyone keeps talking about how Edward always laughs at Bella and calls her stupid. I don't remember this. I'm not doubting that Edward would do that, what with his crippling lack of social skills and whatnot, but I feel like that's something I should have remembered. Can anyone give some examples? Thanks.
    • The think is that to haters all the snark and banter between the too is classified under insulting, they share the same sick sense of humor so he doesn't laugh at Bella she makes him laugh (and he makes fun of her clumsiness but that is pretty much every character on the book, including Bella herself its the running gag of the series: Fall down again Bella?, No, Emmet I punched a werewolf on the face) and even so sometimes he does lose his temper, when Bella feels bad about it (meaning he crossed the snark line) he apologizes. Bella also teases him and calls him names, (she also crosses some lines) but neither of them take them at heart. Also Edward's insults are as good as Bella's lies. Which means you don't take them seriously unless you have a personal issue with "You are utterly absurd" , YMMV.
      • It doesn't matter if they're unintentionally/intentionally mean spirited comments. If comments like that are constant enough, in real life they wear down on people. It does bad things to any average person's self esteem. This is not my own opinion. This is basic human psychology, and related to why Chinese water torture works so well (i.e. Continuous anything negative no matter how unintentionally harmful/seemingly harmless = bad). Notice how I say "in real life". It doesn't hurt Bella because it isn't written to hurt Bella. The thing to remember is that such behavior shouldn't be mimicked in real life at the level seen in Twilight.
      • Well I of course agree that people shouldn't imitate works of fiction in any case, since authors have various reasons to had their characters behave the way they behave, of course you can get inspired to do something over a work of fiction but I'm sure whatever inspires you, have to do more with your particular personality/background/issues than the work per se, IMO. About the Chinese water torture they used it on a Mythbusters episode and there are other things at play about why it works, than just the constant water drops.[1]
      • That's why I said "related to". I'm a big Myth Busters fan. Also, I'm not specifically criticizing a detail like that in a work of fiction. I'm just pointing out that it's unrealistic. It all depends on if a reader is willing to suspend their disbelief, as you have made the choice to, if that unrealism flies with them. Therefore, I was explaining the antis/lolfans negative reaction to the behavior (Since that was what the first person was asking about, I stayed on that topic.).
      • Oh I didn't meant to annoy you, sorry. Is that I loved that episode and couldn't help to remember it. And related to that I think people don't really make a choice on suspension of disbelief or not, is just happens: some things just click and some don't. I got some friends that hate all kind of Scifi/Fantasy genre because they consider it totally unrealistic and I got one that liked it a lot because is so unrealistic that is funny to her so she watches it for the lulz, YMMV.
  • Is anyone else getting Mao vibes from Edward's and Bella's relationship? Seriously: he's a crazy mind-reader the same way Edward is, and he's obsessively in love with the one person whose mind he can't read. Of course, in Mao's and CC's interactions with one another, it's sort of a role-reversal. Mao is the socially-awkward human boy and CC is the icy, mystical girl whom he's completely dependent on.
  • The Volturi are so determined to stay secret that they murder any vampires who reveal themselves, yet they murder 40 tourists a month? How does that make any sense?
  • "Aro started to laugh. "Ha ha ha" he chuckled." How on Earth do you say the same thing three times in only nine words!? That is some Epic Fail right there.
    • Heh indeed. Really this books are perfect for a drinking game: drink everytime Bella refer to Edward as a greek god, marble statue, ice cold skin, everytime the author rapes a thesaurus, repeat things unnecesarily... Not liver would survive a TL drinking game.
  • So, um, if Edward has no blood or bodily fluid to speak of... How does he impregnate Bella, much less actually have sex?
    • Er... Carlise helped them out...? (Not like that!)
    • To reconcile Mormon "family values" with the wish-fulfillment plot. This troper means no disrespect, but there are people who believe that having biological children is a really big deal. Thus, True Love™ made it possible, as we all know it is the most powerful force in the universe (as well as an acceptable substitute for anal lube).
  • Edward doesn't want to have sex with Bella because he thinks he'll kill her. After they get married, he has sex with her while she's still human and nothing happens. What?
    • That was Edward's reservations towards it, it was never stated that he was right about that and every book his selfcontrol got better, Bella points out how less careful his kisses and touchings are becoming with time so its not farfetched to think the he managed to learn to handle fragile things, like a human body.
      • So in other words, the primary conflict of all the books before that was over absolutely nothing?
      • The conflict (a vampire in love with a human he thirsted for strongly) had several levels, the physical part was something they worked slowly till the wedding and even there it was not smoothly since Bella did had some bruises. The part of the thirst for her blood was solved on Eclipse (well technically NM), since he was able to tolerate her blood spilled without having any temptation to drink it. That is why Eclipse had the love triangle in wich the conflict was if Bella should keep her goal to be a vampire and be with Edward or settled down for a more normal life with Jacob. In New Moon the conflict was if Bella would had been better of without Edward and we all saw how that worked out. Of course the books are predictable, badly written and filled with holes, I never claimed they are a master piece, but the conflicts revolving around the premise did varied and were solved in some way. I mean if we only loved perfect things there will not be a lot of love on the world, IMO.
    • They're married. It's okay.
  • None of the "heroes" do anything remotely heroic throughout the entire series. They only battle evil when evil directly threatens them, otherwise they don't care who gets hurt. In fact, to my mind Bella is near to a Villain Protagonist, given her complete disregard for anyone else's feelings.
    • The vampires never were explicitly stated to be heroes. They're described as being more admirable then they probably should be (for doing nothing.), but comic wise, they're not goodie two shoes like Super-man, and they're not from the Dark Age.
      • What about the fact that they psychically cheat the stock market? Insider trading is a crime, after all. They seem to be knowingly doing more harm than good, and I'm supposed to find them sympathetic?
      • Technically, what they're doing is probably not a crime. I doubt anyone has ever sat down and written a law about psychics buying low and selling high via the future. I don't know that what they're doing is technically "harmful," anyway.
      • Like I said, they're painted in too good of a light.
    • Alice uses her powers to predict the stock market. And the Cullens do break various laws to keep themselves protected and anonymous. You can whether accept it for the benefits they bring like having 8 vampires less eating humans without mercy, a very experienced doctor saving patients whose lives would had been lost on human hands and the other lives they had saved when possible, then you will find them sympathetic, specially comparing them to the other vampires on the story, except for the Denali's sisters, if not well more reasons for you to hate them.
      • This troper can't get passed the fact that the Cullens make heaps of money, waste a lot on frivolous stuff, and then leave the rest to sit in a pile. Breaking Dawn all but admits they do this. Can't they use the money for more worthy causes?
      • Probably. But you could make that argument of basically everyone in America, if not the entire First World. I know that I could donate more of my paycheck to charity than I do. I don't think that "not donating money to charity" is a valid argument for vilification, at least not unless you're going to apply the same standard to every other character in fiction.
      • Two words: Deer overpopulation. The Cullen's constant consumption of carnivores, especially over the time they've been guzzling 'em (including endangered animals), would non-directly end many innocent human lives, if the Twiverse vamps were in the real world. (I say "human lives" because Vampires don't care about animals.) Take a look at this excerpt from an article:
      Deer eat a variety of vegetation, including shoots of tree branches and seedlings, as well as farm crops, leading to the destruction of understory plant life, their own habitat, and the habitat of other organisms. By feeding on tree seedlings, deer destroy the potential for re-growth of the forests in the region. Also, due to their vegetation preferences, deer can alter the composition of tree species found in this region's wooded areas. Deer can also damage crops, significantly reducing income for many farmers. When deer reach high population densities they may push into urban areas, where they can pose a threat to people because they often carry Lyme disease ticks. Deer also pose as a serious threat to drivers, causing about 34,000 accidents per year in the state of Pennsylvania, which has the highest number of auto-deer collisions.
      • There is presumably no legal way for them to remain anonymous, and The Masquerade is not their choice.
    • I think that calling her a villain is going too far. Calling her a protagonist might be going too far, since she never actually does anything to progress the story, but I digress. Bella is a girl who is in a relationship that she's not emotionally or mentally ready for, which makes her deeply flawed, but we're never given the sense that she's a bad person, even by real world standards rather than Twilight standards. She's a bit pretentious and, yes, thoughtless, but she's seventeen. Most of them are.
  • Where did the term "Special Snowflake" come from in regards to making fun of Bella?
    • My best guess would be that popular snarky comic that made its rounds on The Internets last year (Bella: Hi! I'm Bella Swan and I'm a special snowflake.). I think there's a link to it somewhere in the main article.
  • Double standards are my personal Berserk Button. The fandom drips with them. Girls get peeved when boys say they think Alice is attractive while they drool over Edward and Jacob. Boys have always been the ones going into theatres for sexual titillation, which is considered "the norm", but so many of them hate Twilight simply because GIIIIRRRRRRRLLLLS like it, etc.
  • Outside, in the normal world, you might see it once in a while. You might see the books in a store, a poster at a fast food joint. But people talk about seeing Twilight everywhere, and that's why it annoys them. I suggest to these people that they get off the Internet, where Twilight is everywhere, and take time to cool down. I mean, my best guess is that in schools girls might talk about it a lot, and that would be harder to get away from if you're still in high/middle school, but otherwise most of the world isn't constantly talking about these books and movies. It's fairly Twilight-free.
  • How is imprinting useful in passing on the genes of a werewolf? Developing Single Target Sexuality is going to impede that process, because if the person rejects you then you will never have any sort of sex. Wouldn't a phenomenon that makes the wolves promiscuous be more useful?
    • Well Smeyer say that in her world that kind of devotion leads to the mate agreeing every time, but even if that were true, in the Third wife story once the imprinted female died the chief wolf left the pack forever so if the chosen female dies then you lost that werewolf gene for forever. So again imprinting as a method of passing genes sounds idiotic.
      • Not only that, but there are plenty of real life reasons why a girl would reject a wolf that imprinted on her. Suppose she's happily dating a guy already and doesn't want some other guy following her around every second of the day? Suppose she's married? Heck, suppose she's a lesbian? What if she were only vacationing in the area when she was imprinted on and had to go home to another state or country? Not everyone can up and move on a whim. What if her parents don't like some guy following their daughter around obsessively and making plans for marriage right away? Especially if their daughter is a baby? It seems extremely cocky for the series to assume that a girl will automatically fall for a guy because he becomes slavishly devoted to you. Not every girl would be comfortable with that.
  • It bugs me that the complete overload of Twilight and other Follow The Leader shitty vampire stories made it impossible to get new players to take a game of Vampire The Requiem seriously. The effect is also spreading to Werewolf. I don't care if you like/hate the books or the movies, but shut the fuck up already. Every good vampire and werewolf story ever made is now harder to enjoy thanks to those literary abominations.
  • Is this troper the only one who was glad that Leah ended up on a just friends basis with Jacob? It seems like most of the poor girl's stress and troubles began when her fiance left her over imprinting and a huge source of her angst was how she was forced to listen to said ex's thoughts and feelings for her cousin. Is it too much of a stretch to think that a person might not want to go through dating and romantic relationships right away after all of that, but instead just want a friend for support?
    • It annoys me, also, that people need their favorite character to have a romantic ending to be satisfied. Sex is not everything, despite what the Twilight saga teaches. Speaking of sex...
    • First since Edward and Bella didn't had sex for three books I doubt the ending was meant to be romantic just because of the sex, but the fact that they will be together forever. Edward was very much okay with spending 100 years just watching Bella sleep. The romantic happy ending is a given because it was the set up of the story and it was a romance. I'm guessing in other type of fiction people didn't needed the happy ending, but not wanting a romantic ending on a romance novel is kind of...problematic, don't you agree?
      • Yes, but we were talking about the fandom regarding Leah, not Edward and Bella. Your point is moot.
      • Well everyone else on the books got paired up, so in the world of the book romantic pairs were the designated happy ending. Given that Jacob and Leah were so close and it looks like Team Jacob considers friendship a way to fall in love, its not a surprise that they would had leaned towards Jacob/Leah pairing. It also fix the squick of Jacob imprinting on a newborn baby.
  • Sex does not need to be penetrative to be beautiful and wonderful. That is a heterosexual fallacy.  * In the nineties, only 40% or 50% of homosexual men had ever had anal sex. In modern times, with opinions of anal sex becoming more liberal, only about 80% of homosexual men have had anal sex. When it comes to lesbians, gays, and bisexuals with partners of the same gender, sex is about the touches (fingers/hands, mouths) and emotions between the two lovers, not whether anyone is getting sticked with something. If Edward was truly caring about not hurting Bella, then he should have known better, and not had vanilla sex with Bella that bruised her so badly. If he could kiss her lips gently, he should have been able to kiss other places gently, right?
    • Given that Bella and Edward were heterosexual virgins they might not know much about "alternatives".
      • A modern doctor knows about sex classes.
      • Bella wouldn't have wanted that.
      • It still bugs me that it happened in a way that got Bella hurt when they didn't have too.
      • The difficulty in their sex life (exaggeratedly) mirrors Real Life first times of young couples.
      • I see your angle. I'd just prefer to see a mature and safe sexual relationship in a book so many young girls read (but I mostly would like parents to talk to their kids about sex while the read the books, as is suggested). And like I said, there is no way Edward hadn't heard of sex classes if he was a real modern doctor. But I think the metaphor will do, since it will resonate with teenage girls. If you don't mind, I'm going to abridge this conversation, too. I made my point without needing to elaborate already at the first bullet, and you did a very good job making yours here.
      • I enjoy this conversation so if you don't mind I would like to add some other points, since I think the meaning of first time for both of them implied penetration even though we both agree that sex is a lot beyond that, but I think few people learn about that till they actually start to have a sex a life and sadly some not even then. "In 1999, a study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association which examines the definition of sex based on a 1991 random sample of 599 college students from 29 states found that sixty percent said oral-genital contact did not constitute having sex. "That's the 'technical virginity' thing that's going on," said Stephanie Sanders, associate director of the Kinsey Institute for Research in Sex, Gender and Reproduction at Indiana University. Sanders, as the co-author of the study, and along with other researchers, titled the findings "Would You Say You 'Had Sex' If ...? According to a study published in 2001 in The Journal of Sex Research, over half of respondents considered that virginity could only be lost through having consensual sex." Even though the books are not explicit about it, I think that probably Bella and Edward are on this train of though. Again it might be a misconception of sex actually means but I think it was in character for both of them and you need to remember that Edward might be a modern doctor but he keeps a lot of the mindframe of his upbringing,so he probably know about sex what the book say about intercourse and being a doctor doesn't guarantee being a fantastic lover due to the deep knowlegde of the mechanics of sex, I could be wrong though, I never dated one.
      • Actually, I was thinking more about what they should have done, and you using the word "alternatives" made me jump to the physical. I don't disagree that someone like sex-dumb Edward (who doesn't even recognize the feeling he gets around Bella is called "arousal") would be head-deep in the misconception. Also, Bella is a Mormon from The South.
      • I know and the sex-dumb part of Edward was kind of funny. I mean how many times does a character doesn't know that little fact about life and their own bodies? Specially a man.
      • Ok. I'm done with this issue if you have nothing else to add/ask. Thanks for the interchange :)
  • Meyer gets virtually all of her real-life vampire mythology wrong. I don't mean that she made the vampires of the series unique (I don't mind reimaginings of mythological creatures, I think it's cool). What I mean is that when Bella does her research on vampires, the stuff she finds is almost all incorrect. For example, in Breaking Dawn she refers to incubi and succubi as vampires who cause unexplained pregnancy. Which is well and good except that both of them are demons. It says so in the first sentence of their Wikipedia entry. Or when the cleaning woman mistakens Edward for a "Libishomen", which does not exist. There is a mythological creature called the Lobishomen, but it's actually a Portuguese werewolf that looks monkey-ish, turns girls into nymphomaniacs, and is made vulnerable by drinking blood. Neither of those creatures are that difficult to find information on. And Meyer insisted that she researched specifically for the chapter that Bella did. What the heck?

Statler: Imagine, people spending so long complaining about something they dislike.
Waldorf: I know! It usually only takes us a few seconds!
Both: Doh-ho-ho-ho!

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