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- If Lorule's Triforce has four pieces (since it is based off a tetrahedron instead of a triangle), wouldn't that mean it encompasses four virtues instead of just three?
- It's just meant to be a three-dimensional representation on Hilda's staff - one that looks like the triforce from several directions. The actual Lorian triforce only has three parts.
- What is the Hylian Shield doing in Lorule? It's the equivalent of finding a Lolian Shield complete with inverted Triforce in Hyrule. It does not belong.
- Maybe someone stole it (is "Lolian" even used in the game?) from Hyrule and left it there.
- It's worth mentioning that "Hylian" has no real connection to "Hyrule". Hylian is the race (revealed to be named after the goddess Hylia in Skyward Sword), Hyrulean is the nationality of people born in Hyrule. So it's possible that the pointy-eared inhabitants of Lorule are also called Hylian. As for the shield itself, with its Hyrulean elements (the Triforce pointing up), the above is probably right. Alternatively, it was placed there by the powers that be, in order to help Link.
- It'a also possible that, at some point in the distant past, there was some contact between Hyrule and Lorule, possibly between their dignitaries, and the shield was passed from Zelda's ancestors to Hilda's as a gift and subsequently hidden as one of the treasures inside Turtle Rock. After all, there would probably have to be other ways to pass through fissures than just merging into a wall, and it would have explained some of how Hilda came to know so much about Hyrule and its Triforce.
- Is Lorule in the Dark World, as is suggested by the background music and the Thief's Hideout?
- No. It's a thematically similar, but distinct, alternate world. It's effectively a what-if universe where the Triforce was destroyed instead of sealed in the Sacred Realm.
- ...and this makes how many Alternate Universes?
- Only 3, actually. Post Ocarina of Time, there are 3 main time lines. There are the Adult Link and Child Link timelines, then there is the timeline where the Hero of Time loses, which is where this game takes place. Lorule isn't so much an alternate universe so much as it and Hyrule are part of the same multiverse. Presumably it exists in the other timelines, but we've just never seen it before.
- Lorule actually seems to be more of an Alternate Universe rather than just a world in the same multiverse. It has its own Sacred Realm, for instance. The differences are a little bigger than the single event that differs between the AT and the DT, but it's still closer to them than, say, Termina is.
- Nintendo just likes reusing themes without actually connecting them. Just like we have two mirrors with dark tribes sealed within, a bunch of swords that look and act like the Master Sword, a lot of sacred powers passed down the royal family bloodline, etc. Lorule drinks heavily from A Link to the Past's version of the Dark World, but it's more like a paralel universe, akin to Termina (while the Dark World is more deeply connected to Hyrule itself, being a corrupted version of its closest analogue to a heaven, the Sacred Realm). In fact we visit both Lorule and Hyrule's Sacred Realms in this game.
- What did Osfala intend to accomplish with the Sand Rod in a sandless dungeon?
- More important than what he intended to do, how did he actually manage to reach the boss room? And why was he even climbing the dungeon, if there was nothing there?
- He was climbing the dungeon because he wanted to follow Yuga. As for his route through the dungeon, Gameplay and Story Segregation is the easiest answer, but maybe he has some magical abilities... including going through locked doors like Darunia.
- He said himself that he rented the Sand Rod from Ravio. Ravio knows that the Hero of Hyrule will be someone who looks just like him - hence, I think he knew that Osfala wasn't meant to defeat Yuga and thus gave him something useless on purpose, basically setting him on a suicide mission so that he could save the tool one would really need - the Bow - to give to Link, who by that point he knew was the real hero.
- If the Dark Triforce is the embodiment of the inverse traits of the Light Triforce, as revealed by Ravio the coward being the Lorule Link, shouldn't Hilda be ignorant and Yuga be weak?
- Ravio is a coward. Hilda lacked the wisdom to realize that the path she's walking down was the very reason why they destroyed their Triforce in the first place, as well as that she could have just asked Zelda for aid and use Hyrule's Triforce to restore Lorule's, thus saving both worlds, and Yuga was weak enough for Link to defeat twice (though the first time he was clearly underestimating him) before he merged with Ganon.
- It was never established that Lorule's Triforce embodies the opposite of the other's virtues. They appear to have represented different traits (as Courage, Wisdom, and Power are mentioned as qualities of Hyrule's Triforce in particular), but they were probably other positive qualities. It's worth pointing that Lorule was not the complete opposite of Hyrule (it was a world much like Hyrule itself before their Triforce was destroyed), just a parallel universe with a few key differences, and that if Lorule's Triforce (which isn't "dark" at all) represented Cowardice, Ignorance, and Weakness, it would hardly be an artefact worth fighting a war over.
- I believe that perhaps Lorule's Triforce represents Ambition, Caution, and Focus - not only do these virtues mirror those of Hyrule's Triforce, but they also represent the characters of Yuga, Ravio, and Hilda. Yuga's Ambition has turned to avarice (greed), Ravio's Caution has turned to cowardice, and Hilda's Focus has blinded her to the bigger picture. I hope that this clears a few things up.
- No. Ambition, Caution, and Focus are not proper Virtues. They're arguably Vices. Hyrule's Triforce is based upon virtues such as Power, Wisdom, and Courage, thus Lorule's Triforce must be based upon similar mirror virtues. One of those virtues is definitely Loyalty, for Ravio, Link's counterpart embodies this completely for his unfailing love and devotion to Hilda. Most likely, the others are Duty and Creativity, which Hilda and Yuga each embody respectively.
- We must remember that Hyrule is not Earth, Hylians are not Humanity, The Three Goddesses religion is not Christianity and it may be that their virtues are simply not our own. This troper finds it irritating when people expect a fantasy world to be 100% analogous to the real world.
- This makes sense, actually. If you look at the Lorule residents, they aren't opposites of their Hyrule counterparts, just... similar, but through a different lens. The Blacksmith and his wife in Lorule, for example. The Blacksmith is still very good at what he does, and takes pride in his work... just a bit more timid about it. Likewise, his wife is still caring and maternal, just a bit more brash about it. Hilda, like Zelda, cares deeply about her kingdom, and is willing to do whatever it takes to protect it. She was just more willing to sacrifice, rather than take a third option. Hell, looking at the little vignettes between Lorule dungeons, and it's clear that Hilda isn't doing what she's doing because she wants to, but because she feels she has no other choice, and regrets it immensely. In spite of what Ravio said, he was not the coward he sees himself as. Desertion in the face of such actions takes guts...he just exercises his courage differently. And assuming Yuga is a direct analogue of Ganon, he's definitely not weak...though not NEARLY as strong as Ganon, but he exercises it differently. Through cunning and guile rather than brute force and fear. It makes sense that the Lorule Triforce would not be opposites, but rather the Hyrule Triforce's ideals expressed differently... as said above, Ambition, Caution, and Focus to Hyrule's Power, Courage, and Wisdom.
- Not to mention at the very end Ravio finally goes back to Lorule and actually calls Hilda out for her actions, even as she calls him a traitor for deserting her. If that's not courage, I don't know what is.
- Caution and Focus work very very well, but Ambition is a bit iffy. Notice that on the other side of things, it can be said that Link lacks "Caution" (he recklessly confronts Yuga twice in the beginning), and Zelda lacks "Focus" (despite her wisdom, she is very passive and ends up kidnapped). Ganon, however, clearly does NOT lack Ambition. Lorule's third Triforce should logically be something Yuga embodies and Ganon lacks (again, assuming he is Ganon's counterpart). Maybe Cunning? Yuga is certainly more Genre Savvy than Ganon and his master plan with Hilda was pretty clever. So... Caution, Focus, and Cunning maybe?
- That might work, but then we'd have two "C's". Maybe Ingenuity instead? I mean, Ganon just keeps trying the same things over and over, despite his ability to strategize.
- Another theory being that the qualities of the Triforce were just swapped around; Ravio with Wisdom, Hilda with Power, and Yuga for Courage.
- This is what I always figured to be true - Ravio is wise enough to know that Yuga is only feigning loyalty to Hilda (which actually parallels Zelda's suspicions about her father's alliance with Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time) and sees past the simple greed of stealing something to save his own world at the expense of another; Hilda, like Ganondorf, is a powerful ruler who goes to greatly extreme ends while claiming for it to be the good of her people; Yuga is a self-centered, arrogant, and thus confident person, who, like Link, goes under the orders of his princess to gather important quest items across the land.
- So uhh... what's in Ravio's bag that's "more important than life itself"?
- Uhh... It... Y'know what? It gets revealed shortly after you defeat the final boss.
- An image of it is on the bag.
- Just... Rupees? Is he that greedy?
- Well, think about how many houses you've barged into as Link to break people's possessions and take their Rupees. Link is not without greed. It follows that Ravio would also be greedy. Knowing Link as he does, because they're so similar, Ravio could have made up the "more important than life itself" thing to keep Link from taking his Rupees.
No Hero Discount
- So if Ravio had gone to Hyrule to seek a hero that could help him, why did Ravio have Link pay for using his items? Wouldn't Ravio just give Link the items so he could better help him out?
- I'd say a subtle test of character/making sure Link really is the Hero. Rent out items, see if he puts them to good use, if he makes it to the point that he can buy the items, all the better...and of course, make a few bucks in the process. Always good to have a plan B in case it all goes to pot on him.
- Ravio has more vices than Link. He's reluctant to lose the items that he evidently worked very hard to acquire.
- Ravio is also trying to maintain some amount of anonymity and doesn't want his ulterior motives revealed through all of this, due in my mind to still feeling loyal to Hilda and not wanting to so drastically go against her word. It'd already be suspicious enough that he said to Link, "Great news, roomie! I've decided to open up a shop in your house where I'll be conveniently renting out all of the one-of-a-kind items that you'll just happen to end up needing in order to save two worlds! Oh, and here's this mundane piece of jewelry that also happens to render your enemy's greatest offensive tactic completely useless against you." Link would only ask more questions if Ravio just offered to give him the items for free, and after that happens, there doesn't seem much of a point to the mask.
- This troper thinks Ravio charged Link for the weapons as a means to help restore Lorule in a way less sacrificing-another-world-to-the-same-fate kind of way. Or at least delay the inevitable for a bit. After all, working to restore all the destroyed towns and landscape would most likely cost a lot of money, as would getting the people who have taken to thievery to survive to help. But all of that is just this troper's headcanon.
Avoid the problem by wishing
- It's minor, but something kinda bugs me about the plot/ending: Hilda goes to all this trouble in order to get Hyrule's Triforce, with the intent to replace Lorule's destroyed one. Okay, that's all well and good... But the problem arises in that she knows doing this is probably going to doom Hyrule as Lorule once was. But, she says herself, when speaking of Lorule's Triforce, that it can grant wishes; ie, she's aware the united Trifoce can do so. So, why wasn't the plan to unite the Triforce and just wish for Lorule's own Triforce to simply be restored? Now, her plot allowed Link and Zelda to do that on their own, but it seems odd that Hilda, who isn't really evil, just desperate, doesn't seem to have considered this!
- The idea of having the Triforce, the power of the gods, before your grasp can affect your mind and judgement. Just ask Ganondorf and his initial intentions.
- The fact the Triforce can grant wishes does not equate to it being able to grant any wish, it might have some limitations. So, it is able to restore another Triforce, but it might have been unable to, and then what? Lorule was on the verge of collapse, they didn't have the time to waste. Furthermore, what if Hilda didn't have a balanced heart? Two of the Triforce pieces would fly away eslewhere, most probably back to Hyrule, and she'd lose even more time tracking them down.
- I'm inclined to believe this. I mean, it would follow, if you could just wish for another Triforce, everyone would have one, or something akin. She may have assumed the "no wishing for more wishes" genie corollary. I mean...I would think beseeching the Gods for another Treasure of the Gods might be kinda blasphemous, or something.
- Besides, Hilda wouldn't even have been able to do much even if she was sane enough to ask for Zelda's help. Zelda only had one piece of the Triforce; Ganon had the Triforce of Power, and I don't need to explain why attempting to resurrect him is a bad idea. The Triforce of Courage wasn't even physically around, so it's not like Hilda could have just went and asked Zelda to use the Hyrulean Triforce (Maybe work with her to find a way to form it without causing too much damage, but even then, it would have involved resurrecting Ganon).
- Maybe so, but she ended up pretty much doing that anyway, resurrecting Ganon and all that. Seems like asking for help from Zelda and Link would only make things easier for all of them. I guess what the game expects us to accept is that Hilda became blinded by the Triforce's power...but that still doesn't make much sense to me seeing how she only wanted it to restore her kingdom and aid her people. With Ganondorf, King of the Gerudo or no, he was still jealous of the aura of prosperity that seemed to surround the kingdom of Hyrule and how ignorant and unappreciative people were of it; thus, it made sense for him to be blinded by the Triforce and for these feelings of jealously to mask any ulterior motives he may have initially had in terms of aiding his people. With Hilda...Well, it was kind of her peoples' fault that Lorule's Triforce is gone, so even if she is jealous of Hyrule's prosperity, that jealousy isn't at all justified.
- I prefer to assume she wasn't blinded by power, just because that's every Zelda villain's motivation and it's really gotten old by this point. I think it's quite reasonable to say she was simply too desperate to think of the better option. Maybe she didn't trust Zelda enough to cooperate, or maybe she trusted Yuga a bit too much. It's possible that after she assembled the Triforce, she might have cooled off enough to try the Deus ex Machina plan, but with the stakes as high as they were, it was too risky at that point. (There's also no guarantee she'd be virtuous enough to avoid the defense mechanism; if it split again, it might stay in Lorule, but in a worst-case scenario it'd return to its Hyrule bearers and she'd be back to square one.) However, this would work a lot better if it was stated that the Triforce of Courage could only be summoned in a time of crisis, or something.
- Speaking sort of from personal experience here...I, for one, know how hard it can be to request help from someone who's already better off than you, especially if you already feel a little bit envious of them. You're afraid that all that prosperity has left them too stuck-up to be willing to help you...Hilda always struck me as having a few insecurities of her own - indeed, with the sorry state of her kingdom, why would she expect someone like Zelda to be willing to help her? It's filled with monsters, crooks, ruins and thieves, after all. Not to mention, she also doesn't seem old enough to be running any sort of kingdom responsibly on her own, and with someone like Yuga probably influencing her plans from the start, as Ravio's diary would imply, it's no wonder things turned out like they did.
- How does one destroy the Triforce? Whoever managed to accomplish that feat could theoretically defeat one of the golden Goddesses.
- If one can wish on it to create a "duplicate" Triforce for an alternate universe, one can easily wish on it to destroy itself.
- Not necessarily. We've seen the Triforce being broken apart many times before (all the way back to the very first game), destroying it for real is just a matter of taking that to the next level. So, breaking the Triforce is clearly easier than its divine origins would imply.
- The gods created the Triforce and filled it with their essence, for the mortals. Its unlimited power can never be used by any deity, it only can be utilized by a mortal being. Hilda's ancestors wished upon the golden relic to self-destruct. True omnipotence is a power that can undo itself. Now, it can only be brought back by wishing on Hyrule's still-intact Triforce, for true omnipotence can restore what was once destroyed.
Oren as Ruto's descendent
- It's strongly implied that Oren is Ruto's descendent. How can this be possible? Ruto is a sea Zora, and Oren is a river Zora.
- The distinction may be a racial one, rather than a species one; if this is the case, then they could easily be interfertile.
- The bigger problem is that Ruto somehow had a human descendent in one of the maidens from LttP, and then the same thing happened in reverse for Oren.
- It is possible that Ruto had multiple descendents branching off into different family trees. Oren and the human sage might just be cousins, both descendents of Ruto.
- In the Oracle games, a Zora states that the sea and river Zoras are related. Apparently they split off at some point in the Failure timeline, since the river Zoras only appear in that timeline. And presumably the more aggressive river Zoras eventually wiped out their more peaceful cousins.
- Ruto having a human descendant shouldn't come as very surprising at all seeing how eager and willing she was to get together with Link. But still, if she and Oren were related, that would mean that she and her descendants crossbred enough times for one of them, the Maiden in A Link to the Past, to appear completely human, only for said Maiden, or one of her descendants, to get together with King Zora or one of his descendants, thus marrying back into the Zora royal family and allowing the bloodline to continue more and more until Oren, who for all intents and purposes is a Zora, is born years later. So...the Zoras, or at least those descended from Princess Ruto, must have a real penchant for crossbreeding.
- While the original intent in A Link to the Past may have been otherwise, I think it's safer to say new Sages are successors and not literal genetic descendants. I think Sagehood can pass on to any worthy successor when the current sage dies. This is why Ganon makes a habit of capturing rather than killing sages: he discovered that dead sages don't permanently solve his problem. Better to trap them in a crystal or painting or what-have-you than to give someone unknown to you the opportunity to awaken as a new sage.
- That could be true, but the only instance that would suggest this to be at all likely is, as was aforementioned, A Link to the Past, and that was only because an overall series continuity hadn't yet been established. Really, the case of Ruto and her descendants/successors is the only issue here, since we're never shown how, in what capacity, or even with whom Gorons reproduce.
- Why is the Triforce even split in this game? The ending of A Link to the Past clearly shows it together.
- Given that that ending is one of the only times we see the Triforce being used to make a wish (and this is the only time we have a direct sequel showing where it went afterwards), it is entirely possible (and likely in this context) that the Triforce operates like the Dragonballs: get your wish, and the wish-granter, its job done, splits back into component pieces that must be gathered again before any further wishes can be made, so as to prevent wish-abuse and minimize risks of falling into the wrong hands.
- This is actually what happens in The Wind Waker. After the Triforce granted a wish, it split apart and scattered across the world again. Link made a wish to the Triforce in A Link to the Past, so the Triforce split apart. Remember, you don't see the Triforce anymore in ALttP after Link makes his wish.
- But in Skyward Sword, it remains intact after Link uses it for a wish. Either it's an inconsistency, or the Triforce disappearing in The Wind Waker was a consequence of the wish; which was, notably, to make Hyrule disappear forever.
- Alternatively, it split after granting Link's wish because, on one hand, it had just been gathered after having been split, so it had to grant a wish; on the other hand, the one making that wish didn't have the three virtues in balance, favoring Courage overly much, so as soon as the wish was granted, it split again like it always does when touched by someone who doesn't favor all three virtues equally.
- It says in the paintings in Hyrule Castle that Ganon somehow got his hands on the Triforce of Power and that the Triforce of Courage is MIA, so it's clear SOMETHING happened between the end of Link to the Past and the start of this game.
- It's actually weirder than that. The Oracle games happen after A Link to the Past, with the same Link, and the Triforce is still united and under the care of the Royal Family, so it was clearly not the wishing that split it. My personal theory is that somewhere down the line, the Royal Family decided that they should split the Triforce again, before rumours about it started causing mayhem once more, and so the pieces were sent to the usual chosen ones (even though Ganon was dead/sealed at the time).
- It's simpler than that, even. We see that the crack in the Sacred Realm leads to its analog in the other world. Yuga traveled through the crack between Sacred Realms and arrived in Hyrule's Sacred Realm to find the intact Hyrulean Triforce. When he touched it, it broke into its constituent pieces, and he was left with the Triforce of Power only. It was only at this point that he involved Hilda in an attempt to gain the missing two pieces.
- A few problems with that explanation...First off, it's highly unlikely that Yuga would get the Triforce of Power through this method, since, contrasting Ganon, he's a weakling who relies on his painting powers to get the job done, and given his excessive arrogance and pride, it's more than likely the Triforce of Courage is what he'd end up with. Even if he did have the Triforce of Power, though, then he would've had no need to travel across Hyrule trapping the sages in portraits to be used to resurrect the Demon King. Third, the Triforce, as far as the timeline shows, couldn't be found in the Sacred Realm prior to the events of this game - it had been kept and used by the Hyrulean Royal Family in order to govern their kingdom fairly and properly.
- Even if the royal family had decided to split it, why would the Triforce of Power go to a corpse? Ganon is Killed Off for Real in ALttP, remember.
- The previous comment of Yuga being weak is completely ridiculous. There are more kinds of Power than physical. Open your mind.
- Compared to Ganondorf, he's weak, and it's supposed to be that way. Even without the Triforce, in Ocarina of Time, Ganondorf was still able to create the monsters that terrorized the Kokiri, Gorons, and Zoras - all Yuga does throughout the first half of the game is capture people in paintings and create mook soldiers from paintings. And while there are many different types of "power", the Triforce of Power is clearly meant to correspond to great capabilities of strength, whether they be physical or magical, neither of which Yuga himself is capable of.
- My personal guess is that there's a missing game/reincarnation event that we've not seen, much like the events of the Deluge War in the Adult Timeline, the War of the Bound Chest between Skyward Sword and Minish Cap and the Ancient War before Skyward. Ganon was killed in A Ltt P and the Triforce ended up under the care of the Royal family. After the Oracle games Link and Zelda died of old age as people are wont to do, and a few centuries late Demise's curse kicked in again and Ganondorf was reincarnated - much like what happens after TP leading to the events of Four Swords Adventure - Link and Zelda would have followed him in being reborn. As usual it ended up with Link and Zelda victorious but with the Triforce split once more and Ganon sealed away again. Cue another few hundred years passing by and Link and Zelda are once again back as Ganon is about to be released starting the plot of A Lb W.
Zelda not seventh sage
- In Link to the Past, there were seven sages, including Zelda, who was the seventh sage. In Link Between Worlds, there are seven sages, but Zelda isn't one of them. What's with the discrepancy?
- It can easily be explained by assuming the royal family branches between games, and one of the Sages (probably Seres or Osfala) comes from the branch that didn't inherit the crown. The power of the Sages is hereditary, but not necessarily goes down the same path as the crown does.
- When the Sages send Link away from the Sacred Realm, look at the poses they strike. They do almost the exact same poses as the Sages in Ocarina of Time do when they seal away Ganon. From this and their appearances/dungeons they're in, it can be deduced which ALBW Sage descends from which Oo T Sage.
Osfala = RauruSeres = SariaRosso = DaruniaOren = RutoImpa = ImpaIrene = Nabooru
- Now, the seventh Sage in OoT and ALttP was Zelda. But here, it is Gulley, and Zelda is no longer a Sage. How can Gulley be the sucessor to the OoT / ALttP Zelda? Well... who does Gulley look like? Gulley has green clothes, a green pointy hat, blond hair, and blue eyes. He looks like Link. Who is to say that the Link and Zelda from A Ltt P didn't have a child together? Somewhere down the line, the descendants of ALttP Zelda and Link split off. One branch stayed in the royal family, and would birth ALBW Zelda, wielder of the Triforce of Wisdom. The other branch went to live among the common people, and became blacksmiths. This branch birthed Gulley. Gulley holds both the blood of Link, making him look like Link, and the blood of Zelda, making him the seventh Sage. The Sage powers seem to hold a priority for the youngest person currently in that bloodline, and since Gulley is younger than Zelda, he became the seventh Sage. That is why Zelda isn't a sage in ALBW.
- I thought Gulley was meant to match up with Saria - he's a young child, has a green color scheme, has a deep connection with forest creatures, and is apparently good friends with Link.
- I agree with the above poster—I think Gulley is Saria's counterpart, which means that Seres is descended from the Zelda of Ocarina of Time. There's even a connection based on their color scheme: Seres has a cyan/light blue motif, and the Zelda from Ocarina was somewhat associated with that. She originally kept the titular Ocarina—which was light blue—herself; the Song of Time, which she teaches, is used to manipulate light blue Time Blocks; and she held the Triforce of Wisdom, which is tied to the light-blue-themed Nayru.
- So, why exactly did the Sages have the Triforce of Courage? It doesn't seem to have anything to do with them particularly.
- They were keeping it safe, nothing more. Probably waiting for the next hero to come so they could deliver it.
- Also, remember the ending to Zelda II? Maybe that old man was also a descendant of the Sages.
- The Sages didn't have the Triforce of Courage. Link did all along. It just required the Sages to unlock it so it couldn't be misused.
- It doesn't seem like that could be, though. If Link had the Triforce of Courage, and it had to be awakened from within his own self, then there wouldn't have been any way for Ravio to have obtained it before Link (inadvertently) took up his role in Hilda's scheme.
- It's specifically said, by the last Sage you rescue, that they need to combine their powers to recover the Triforce of Courage from its hiding place. Presumably, they had to do so willingly, which is why it couldn't be magicked out of them as the Triforce of Power was.
- There's an octorok enemy in Lorule. Lorule replaces the octoroks with other enemies. ...huh?
- Exactly how old must one be to qualify as a successor in a family of sages? This game shows Gulley acting as one, and he looks like he's only, what, 7 years old? The art style makes it difficult for me to judge, but he's clearly pretty young. What if the last link in the bloodline was, say, a little baby?
- That's special snowflake bloodline magic for you! It doesn't matter how old he is, he has the genes from birth.
Waiting to wish
- Why did Link and Zelda wait until they'd returned to Hyrule before they decided to use their Triforce to restore Lorule's? I know why Hilda didn't ask them to do so - she'd already put them through so much that she didn't feel she was worthy of their help - but couldn't they have just as easily done it on their own before she sent them home?
- So what was it about helping Link to move around faster that alleviated the fate Irene ended up going through? She still ended up being kidnapped, turned into a painting, used to resurrect Ganon, and then imprisoned and guarded in the swamp in Lorule, and Link would've had to have saved her in the end whether he knew her beforehand or not.
Hilda and the fusion
- How come Hilda survives the fusion with Yuga after he's defeated while both he and Ganon both appear to be destroyed? And it couldn't just be because she's not really evil and only wanted the Triforce to save her people, because that's exactly what Ganondorf's motives were, as well, yet the Master Sword proves deadly against him.
- The reason she survived was most likely that she wasn't truly fused with Yuga-Ganon, as she was merely absorbed into Yuga-Ganon's body. Hilda was in the form of a painting at the time, so she was a work of magical art when she was absorbed, meaning her physical body wasn't present and was converted into a magical painting that was on a frame. Her power was what was absorbed, and Yuga's paintings are mostly not easy to damage, and such paintings cannot feel anything or be damaged. When Yuga-Ganon was destroyed, all of the paintings returned to normal, as the soldiers and captain in Hyrule along with Zelda herself were released from their painting forms and reverted to their physical bodies. The same applied to Hilda who was a painting when she was absorbed, and so reverted to her physical body when Yuga-Ganon was destroyed.
- So...this is a game featuring a hero who can switch between 2D and 3D environments at will, the ability to travel between different dimensions, a heavily tragic and sympathetic villain who seeks to create a better, more perfect world, though at the cost of another, who eventually becomes tempted and half-crazed by a power no man should ever have, only to be betrayed by one of their vain, arrogant, and egotistical minions who plan to remake the worlds in their image. Ultimately, the tragic villain see the error of their ways after being reunited with a close confidante, who funnily enough was revealed to have been working alongside the hero anonymously the whole time - the villain realizes what they've done is wrong, and finally gains their wish as a result of their redemption and their choice to do the right thing in the end...Did this game intend to borrow so much from Super Paper Mario, or is it just a weird coincidence?
- The boss in Skull Woods is the Knucklemaster, which you damage by hitting it after it charges you, hits a wall, and stuns itself. The easiest way to dodge its charging attack is to merge with the wall behind you. The thing is, the Knucklemaster is essentially punching the wall, and strongly enough to knock itself out for a few seconds. So why don't you get hurt when you're part of the wall...?
- The walls are probably pretty thick in that room, and Link himself is a work of magical art. Yuga's paintings probably don't deteriorate at all unless the walls they've been merged with are destroyed.
- The walls are likely extremely hard as well, and Knucklemaster stuns itself because the wall's hardness is so strong that it knocks itself out hard. Considering the wall is made of hard brick, Knucklemaster is basically punching hard brick, which hurts if it is punched really hard, and is also extremely durable and hard to do damage to itself. Brick walls themselves tend to be quite difficult to destroy.
- Why does Hilda seem to be so much more powerful and more effective with magic than Zelda? Zelda is gifted with the Triforce of Wisdom, which is said to increase the wisdom and magical abilities of its wielder, so shouldn't she have trained herself in order to learn how to use it better? Hilda has no Trifoce backing her up and, as far as we know, no divine ancestry that would give her any latent powers, yet she seems able to cast barriers and teleport at will.
- It could be that Zelda specifically doesn't want to learn offensive magic with the Triforce of Wisdom; maybe she's a pacifist?
- Ganon and Yuga appear to be Killed Off for Real in the final battle, but... they had the Triforce of Power, which is supposed to grant immortality, at least according to Twilight Princess.
- Twilight Princess also shows that the Triforce of Power can be lost, apparently, as Ganondorf loses it after Link impales him through his open wound with the Master Sword. As for this game...my theory is this - the three people who composed the creature defeated in the final battle are Ganon, who has been alive for thousands of years prior to the game, and has been fought, weakened, and defeated in many instances during that time; Yuga, who is significantly weaker than Ganon already, was not immortal before the merge, and had already been fought by Link twice early in the game; and Hilda, who hadn't been injured at all and was probably at peak strength. Chances are that when Link managed to weakened this creature to the point where it wasn't able to fight anymore, its two weakest, most fatigued components were killed off, while the Triforce of Power might've "chosen" to remain inside the currently strongest and still-most-able-bodied one, which was Hilda. That's just my theory.
Triforce of Courage inheritance
- In Twilight Princess, The Chosen One has the Triforce of Courage from the start. Here, the sages have to summon it for him, because...?
- Because they are two different stories. in Twilight Princess, Link started out with the crest of courage because it had been passed down through his family from the Hero of Time, who had kept it with him in the Child ending of Ocarina of Time. It isn't really explained why the sages are the ones who have it in this game, but it is still a very different game in an entirely different timeline.
- So wait, under normal circumstances it's inherited through bloodline magic (like the Triforce of Wisdom, presumably), but in the event Link dies it vanishes into the ether and has to be reclaimed by someone else? That...makes a surprising amount of sense, actually.
- Actually wait no, if Power went to Ganon's corpse then I don't understand why Courage couldn't find a bearer.
- Again, we don't know why the sages had the Triforce of Courage in this instance. It's probably that if someone dies without offspring, the Triforce piece remains with them unless/until someone else is there to retrieve it.
- That would explain why Ganondorf doesn't seem to have qualms about killing Link, but it brings up the age-old problem of why he never kills Zelda and instead opts for a time-consuming extraction ritual every time. The Triforce mechanics seem like an insoluble problem...
Why is it so hard to rescue the sages?
- Rescuing the sages is part of the Big Bad's plan. So, why does she place them in such dangerous and out-of-the-way locations? She couldn't have just told Yuga to "accidentally" leave them behind after the summoning? That would have allowed them to summon the Triforce of Courage immediately, which would save Hilda a lot of time and reduce the risk of Link dying early (which would ruin everything).
- Hilda had probably been improvising at that point - she'd already lost Ravio, her ideal person for the job, and she likely didn't really have a plan for the Triforce of Courage until the last minute, when Yuga came rushing in telling her about the boy in green who'd managed to best him twice with the power to merge and emerge at will. Or, just a guess...perhaps Ganon influenced Yuga's will enough to send the sages off to remote locations instead of keeping them there at the castle, just out of habit. It's pretty clear that Yuga's already gone mad with power by the time the merge takes place.
- Surely she must have had a plan for all the pieces before she launched her plot? Two pieces alone are useless to her; if she stalls on the last one, all she accomplishes is tipping her hand and giving Hyrule time to regroup. She must have known that the sages could summon it, at the least, else she wouldn't have made Link search for them.
- Her plan for all the pieces was simple, at first: for power, have Yuga abduct the sages and use them to resurrect Ganon; for wisdom, simply steal the piece from Zelda's portrait; and for courage, have Ravio free the sages with his bracelet and pose as a hero so they would give him the Triforce of Courage...Clearly, though, she had no idea what a coward Ravio turned out to be and how it would never be his intention to help her with this plot to begin with. Moving on, maybe Hilda wanted to see just how much of a hero Link really was by sending him across Lorule first, or maybe she was using him to clear out the infestation of monsters that have been plaguing her kingdom, or maybe she thought it would be better to have Link fight through the enemies in her castle first, in the hopes that he would fall to one of them instead of facing Yuga and potentially killing him. She does openly admit to Zelda's portrait that she's hoping Link will survive his ordeals, hinting that she knew the risks of sending him on his journey but was still willing to do it.
- Hm... I suppose it depends on when Ravio bailed. He only shows up after Yuga's introduction, so it's entirely possible that he fled after Hilda had already set things in motion. Regardless, if her original plan was still to have someone rescue the sages, it's still counterproductive for Yuga to scatter them. Hoping for Link to die to the castle enemies doesn't make sense either, assuming the general consensus of Triforce pieces being lost on death is true (and I assume it is, because I can think of no other reason why the villain of the week keeps Zelda alive every time).
- What villain of the week keeping Zelda alive are you referring to...? The only one I can think of who does such a thing is Ganondorf, and he only appears in three games - Ocarina of Time, where he was just a generic evil bad guy using Zelda to bait Link to his castle, The Wind Waker, where he kept her alive as part of his bout of reminiscing over his past defeat, and Twilight Princess, where Zelda was essentially already dead by the time he had taken over, due to giving her life force over to Midna. Other villains in the series who are known for abducting Zelda usually do so for reasons other than the Triforce piece she holds, or sometimes doesn't hold, depending on the villain and game.
- On the sage question, my guess is that unlike summoning Ganon and his Triforce of Power, the Sages had to willingly bring the Triforce of Courage from its hiding place. If Hilda had kept them around, one or more of them might have become suspicious about her intentions ("oh, just summon the Triforce of Courage for me after I've kidnapped you, turned you into paintings, and made you bring us the Triforce of Power by force, you'll be fine!") and refused to do it—and without all seven Sages working together, the Triforce of Courage couldn't be revealed. By having Link rescue the Sages one by one, Hilda essentially tricked them into thinking they were helping Link, when they were really helping her.
- Regarding the Sages, they weren't actually placed in the locations on the edges of Lorule they wound up in. If you see the cutscene where Yuga fuses with Ganon, the effect of the fusion and the power burst it wrought sent all of the Sages' paintings flying. All seven sages portraits were sent flying and happened to merely wind up in all of the dangerous locations in Lorule after Yuga fused with Ganon, due to the burst of power that came with the fusion, and the power burst must have been so great that the portraits were sent flying great distances. The portraits were then likely discovered by some of the minions of the dungeons that the paintings all wound up flying into. The Thieves' Hideout for example involves escorting an imprisoned Thief Girl, who was imprisoned because she knew where Stalblind hid Osfala's portrait, which meant that Stalblind had found Osfala's portrait in the town there and hid it in that house. Similar circumstances may have applied to the other sages, who wound up flying into those locations where you find them, and may have been discovered either by the bosses themselves or the minions guarding the dungeons,
Why do the sages give Link the Triforce of Courage?
- Seriously, why? It appears to do absolutely nothing on its own, except for making Link a living MacGuffin like Zelda. There's no point to it unless they're purposefully trying to assemble the Triforce, but being proactive is for losers, so that's clearly not the case.
- Because Hilda won't let Link into Lorule Castle without the Triforce of Courage. Link and the sages don't know that she's got her own agenda for using it and that she plans on wiping Link aside in order to steal it from him. Also, it's been theorized that the Triforce of Courage may give Link protection against certain types of powerful attacks and magic, such as the kind Yuga would be capable of using in a fight.
- I forget, does Hilda explicitly say that Link needs the Triforce of Courage to enter the castle? If that's the case then yes, it makes sense that the sages would give it to him. (Maybe he told them at some point and we just didn't hear.)
- I'm not sure...To be brutally honest, I've never played the game myself before, but I thought I remembered her saying something along those lines.
- Apparently she doesn't, she just says he has to rescue the sages. Presumably she knows they can summon Courage, since she's clearly researched the Triforce, but there's still no reason for them to do so.
- Exactly what the Triforce of Courage does to the one who wields it may be somewhat obscure, but there can be no doubt that it does something. And anyway, if you were helping someone to prepare for a battle against an enemy wielding a fragment of raw godpower, wouldn't you want to give them a fragment of the same kind of power, if you could?
- Also, if the sages thought that Hilda was still on Link's side at that point, they probably figured that the benefits of giving her, Link, and Zelda access to two Triforce pieces against Ganon's one would've outweighed the risk of him getting all three pieces if Link failed.
Is the new Triforce lore inconsistent with Ocarina of Time?
- While not explicitly contradictory, the phrasing of the legend in Ocarina of Time, which casts the Triforce as an almost accidental remnant of clockmaker-style gods, doesn't really jive with the idea of it being a Cosmic Keystone, at least for me. It's possible one or both legends were simply wrong, but that feels a little unsatisfying.
- Nothing in Ocarina stated the Triforce was accidental, and many other games imply it was very much on purpose. The only line that so much as implied it as accidental was saying "at the point the golden goddesses departed the world, three sacred triangles were left behind." Yes, that could be some sort of accident, but it could also be one last gift to their creation. The rest of the games (especially Skyward Sword) definitely point to the latter.
Trans-dimensional summoning mechanics
- Yuga summons Ganon in Lorule, not Hyrule. How does that work exactly? Ganon is in Hyrule. Is the summoning ritual so powerful that it bypasses dimensional boundaries?
- It evidently is.
- There was also apparently some sequence of events that had taken place between this game and its predessecor that hasn't been covered in another title yet, since Ganon was killed off in A Link to the Past. Then Twinrova revived him in the Oracle games as a mindless beast, but Link went and killed him again. Yet here in this game, Yuga is able to either revive or unseal him using only the power of the seven sages, meaning there had to be something the sages did to seal him away in the first place.
- In the ending, Zelda and Link both make their wish on the Triforce simultaneously. Just...what? That's an option? How does that work? If one passed the virtue test but the other one didn't, would it still split? What if their wishes were contradictory? Why has this never come up before? Is this supposed to be an intentional thing, or is this like a weird glitch that overloads the Triforce's parameters? I also feel like this goes against the spirit of The Wind Waker's claim that whoever touches it first gets the wish, although it's not an explicit contradiction.
- Chances are that since their hearts were both pure and they both made the same wish, the Triforce and the gods knew their intentions and just made it work, not a big deal at all. If the situation were different, I don't see how two people with different wishes would manage to touch the Triforce at the exact same moment as each other, in which case, the mechanic that occurred in The Wind Waker would kick in as normal.
- So the goddesses did it? Hm... Taking their stated goals into account, it occurs to me that allowing multiple people to contribute to the wish would make so much more sense as the default. If the whole point of the defense mechanism is to prevent people with imbalanced virtues from using the Triforce, that implies that the correct method of reassembling it would be to get the three bearers to compromise and agree on a single wish that would be in line with all three virtues. They'd become more well-rounded people and the world's obsession with balance would be fulfilled. Beating people up to steal their pieces doesn't accomplish that, and effectively renders the defense mechanism meaningless from a philosophical standpoint. Perhaps the writers have decided to shift the Triforce mechanics in this direction, and the mechanics will be elaborated on in future games?
- Well, if you'll notice, Ganondorf in The Wind Waker seems to have grown some, philosophically, from the man he was in Ocarina of Time, which was probably due to losing the Triforce the first time. He's perfected his skills with dual swords, has grown smarter and wiser by reminiscing over the mistakes he made in the past, learning and improving from them, and even coming to regret them some, and he isn't afraid of charging Link and the Master Sword head-on, relying only on his brute strength to get the job done. As opposed to Ocarina of Time, where he spends the entire first half of the game sitting back, waiting for Link and Zelda to gather the stones for him, and does very little by himself.
- Did anyone else feel like Zelda was being kind of a jerkwad during the endgame? Seriously, she tries to talk Hilda down by telling her she understands how sacred a duty she has to her people, even though Hilda's subjects are all weak-willed cultists and thieves and some of them even blame her for Lorule's sorry state, and even then Hilda still cares enough for them to try and save Lorule for their sake - how could Zelda in any way even think she could imagine that kind of duty? And then after she and Link return to Hyrule, she actually has the gall to compare herself to Hilda, mentioning that the two really aren't so different...I'm sorry, but how is that at all a nice thing to say? Zelda's kingdom is sunny, and vibrant and green, and in one piece, and she has subjects who adore her, and a wise nursemaid, and a castle full of loyal servants and guards, and a stalwart and courageous hero, and she's just left another kingdom to what seems to be certain doom, and yet she thinks it's okay to speak as though she tackles the same stressors Hilda had to have gone through?
- Though this is more a complaint about the writing than Fridge Logic, yes, you are absolutely correct. They are not in equivalent situations at all, and while I don't think she was trying to be a jerkward, Zelda's behavior is incredibly condescending. But honestly, what else can you expect from a medieval fantasy that fetishizes aristocracy and divine providence? Par for the genre, really.
- Keep in mind Zelda is the legitimate bearer of Wisdom. No matter how young she is in A Link between Worlds or Hyrule's situation being anything but Lorule's, Zelda most likely can imagine being in Hilda's position. And, following that, think about how she herself would react as well as come to the conclusion that she'd have done the same as Hilda.
- Well, even if she could've imagined how Hilda must feel, I still think it's a bit degrading to say that "no one understands" more than her or that she and Hilda aren't so different from each other, when their kingdoms being total mirrored opposites of each other is one of the main points of the game. And having the Triforce of Wisdom doesn't automatically make Zelda the wisest, since in most games, she simply inherits it from her predessecors.
- Fair enough, saying she understands Hilda the most is rather degrading. Though I want to note that she didn't actually say anything more than, "As Princess of Hyrule, I understand your devotion to your kingdom" in the German version, which is the one I played. I don't know the exact wording they used in the English version so that might be one of the reasons I'm defending Zelda's words. And on the matter of the Triforce of Wisdom, it doesn't make her the wisest specifically, but I still believe it made her wiser than most.
- What was the point of replacing Misery Mire with the Desert Palace and creating the House of Gales to hold the Pendant of Wisdom? The House of Gales and Misery Mire dungeons already have a lot of similarities, and the latter didn't even have a solid theme in A Link to the Past, so why didn't they just put the House of Gales in the swamp in Lorule and leave the Pendant of Wisdom in the Desert Palace?
- There really isn't a reason other than to make the game slightly different from its prequel, Link to the Past. House of Gales was added to the Pendant dungeons most likely to take advantage of the new item, the Tornado Rod, and serve as a dungeon that capitalizes on such item. In a way, Misery Mire and Desert Palace had basically become two parts of a whole, as Misery Mire still exists in Lorule, just not as a dungeon, but is essentially needed to traverse through to reach Desert Palace, which is in Hyrule. Also, Zaganaga, the boss of the dungeon, is fought in Misery Mire. Desert Palace likely became integrated with Lorule to capitalize on the Sand Rod, which was also a relatively new item in this game.
Nothing to fear
- What was Ravio so afraid of that he chose to abandon Hilda instead of trying to talk her out of her plan? Yes, he knows that Yuga has some evil motives of his own, but he should also know that Yuga can't do anything to him as long as he wears his bracelet, and while Hilda does seem to have something of a short fuse, it still doesn't seem likely, given what we're shown in the ending, that she would be very quick to turn on Ravio, especially if he made her realize that he was only suggesting it for Lorule's own good as well as her own.
- ...Also, it begs the question of how he was too scared to confront her right away, yet still had the guts to cross a interdimensional gap into an unknown world to try and find someone who could. He had no idea what to expect in Hyrule, or even if he had enough power in his bracelet to make the trip.
- After beating Yuga for the first time, talking to Ravio shows that he is surprised that Link can get out of the paintings, and comments that he should try getting turned into a painting himself. But even then, he comments that he is worried he wouldn't make it out of the painting.
- That was all just Ravio playing stupid to fool Link into thinking he was uninvolved - he knew the bracelet would protect Link from Yuga by using its magic to repower itself, or at least must have suspected it, since that's why he gave him the bracelet in the first place.
- Ravio is attempting to remain anonymous and doesn't want to give away the hint that he is intentionally helping Link as he is the Hero of Hyrule. Since he was too scared to face Yuga and Hilda's scheme and prevent it on his own, he mentions in the ending of the game that he went to Hyrule in order to find a hero there who could stop Yuga's scheme. When he found Link, he eventually realized that Link is the hero of Hyrule and that he can potentially stop Yuga's scheme after he learns of what happened to Seres, so he inadvertently decides to help Link, while playing stupid to remain anonymous and not give away the hint. This is also why he puts on a bunny costume and masks his face to hide his true identity as Link's Lorule counterpart, all the while describing himself as a traveling merchant to hide his true intentions.
How did he get back?
- How did Ravio get back into Lorule in the endgame? His journal says that he was afraid he wouldn't have enough "power" to make the trip to Hyrule and back, which is proven to be true as his bracelet is depowered when he gives it to Link later on - even after Yuga inadvertently repowers it, Link keeps it on throughout the rest of the game, and in the end, before the confrontation, Ravio just leaps into the fray without any indication how he crossed the void.
Lorule and the Dark World
- Aside from being a clever reference to A Link to the Past, why does Lorule take after Hyrule's Dark World, rather than the actual kingdom? If that's the case, then what would Lorule's Dark World resemble? Maybe Hyrule as it appears in the Light World?
- It's all about decay. In ALTTP, when Ganon acquired the Triforce, the Sacred Realm (according to Nintendo) became the representation of what was in Ganon's heart. Since Ganon's heart was corrupt and withered, the realm took on that appearance. When the Triforce in Lorule was destroyed, since it was what was keeping the realm alive, it would stand to reason that said realm would then begin to wither, collapse and decay. In a nutshell, just as a dying tree takes on a certain appearance, so would a dying Hyrule. Or Lorule.