Why does Yoshi get his own logo and series in the SSB games (to the point where a stage based on Super Mario World gets listed as a Yoshi stage)? Yoshi has only appeared in a handful of games without Mario (Yoshi's Story mainly), and all of those feature Mario enemies like Shy Guys and even have Bowser has the main villain.
It's probably The Artifact from the N64 game, in which Yoshi'sStory had recently came out, giving Yoshi a little more recognition from his own subseries.
Yoshi IS getting a new game now with no Mario in sight though.
How come the Japanese fans were asked what characters they wanted to see in Melee and Brawl in polls, but the Western fans weren't? Is Nintendo xenophobic or something? Sure, it'd be impractical to just ask fans from every single country... but they could've just polled the fans from say, the next 3 countries in which SSB was most popular.
Because Nintendo is a Japanese company.
How does anyone see Game And Watch? He's clearly depicted as a 2D character, so shouldn't he appear as a nearly invisible straight line to all the fighters?
If he's two dimensional, he would be seen from the same angle regardless of where you were standing.
Which indeed seems to be the case in the Subspace Emissary.
If you look at his trophy, you will see that those grey outlines around him have depth. Of course, the characters are still fighting just a grey line, but it's better than nothing.
I'm a little confused how some of the attacks connect, especially with Link, who has attacks that are PERFECT vertical slashes. Oh, and how do they manage to grab him?
One of the houses in Onett has a smoking chimney, indicating that someone there needs it for warmth. But if that's the case, why is it a bright and sunny day?
What the hell is up with Master Hand? All the other characters are quite sensible fighters, but Master Hand is this giant...floating...hand with weird attacks, and has HP instead of damage percentage. What's going on?
It's clear from the opening cinemas that the entire Smash Bros franchise is just some kid playing with his toys. Master Hand is the kid.
They seem to be moving away from this, as Brawl is identified as "a world where trophies fight", but yes, the original game even had the characters being pulled out of a toy box and placed on a table with random items that were arranged to resemble a stage.
Technically, the trophies are those little collectible figurines, so they are still basically toys if you look at it.
I guess that explains the... discomforting music that plays after you beat him in SSB64.
Not really, as I think the whole thing was supposed to be the kid(s) playing. If you've ever seen a young kid playing with only one toy, often his hand will become the opponent (although usually the hand wins.)
Absolutely. Who here can honestly say they didn't attack their toys, overpower them and make them worship one as a giant god, and demand that sacrifices periodically be thrown down the stairs in order to stay your horrible wrath?
A better question is, where did this kid get all of these wonderful toys? I want a Smash Bros collectible trophy toyline, dagnabbit.
Though, I guess with Brawl and the advent of Tabuu and his puppet strings of doom, that whole Kid-Playing-With-Toys thing might be going out the window.
Since "Tabuu is The Master Hand's Mom" as mentioned in the WMG, that's a metaphor for forcing her son to put away his toys for the night.
Wasn't it Master Hand's Dad?
I guess you missed out... this little store near where I used to live as a kid used to sell PVC Nintendo figurines at 3 bucks a pop. I had about a zillion Marios in different poses, a Luigi, a couple of Links, a King Hippo... and of course, being a kid, I put on Smash Bros. style fights with them. Dunno if they make 'em any more, but if they don't, Smash Bros. would be a prime excuse to reissue them. //Later: Apparently, they are still being made in some form; this guy is selling some sets on eBay.
Actually, I was always under the impression that Master Hand is, in fact, a character from a video game. For example, look at the menu screen of any other video game; you'll find that your pointer is often a white gloved hand. This is the hand that controls every action some videogame characters make. Buuuut, that's just my opinion...
Doesn't Master Hand make a reappearance as a boss in one of the Kirby games? I think you even got Kirby's Melee moveset for "copying" him.
Yup. He's also the white glove in the "Continue" screen for various Kirby games.
Of course, in a game where electric mice, huge fire breathing turtles, a pink marshmallow that swallows things and absorbs their power, a hedgehog that can run faster then the speed of sound, and a sexy princess that transforms crossdresses into a ninja, the giant white hand is the odd nonsensical fight.
But he was the only one who didn't play by the same rules as everyone else. (At least before Crazy and the Subspace boss types.) Everyone else was affected by gravity and was defeated by falling off the stage or into the distance. He floated at will and had limited health. This was odd.
He made up the rules, so why should he follow them.
Here's a better question: what does Crazy Hand represent?
The trophy descriptions state that Master Hand represents creativity while Crazy Hand represents destruction. As in, the child gets their mind going on the possibilities of their favorite characters fighting each other, while at the same time, they pretty much beat up on their toys, as the Kids Are Cruel note above signifies.
Does it have to be a child? I always took it to be some sort of sadistic sorcerer (alliteration unintentional).
Why is Rayquaza in a lake? It's supposed to live in the ozone layer.
It's on vacation.
I like to think that the Subspace Army chased it out of its natural habitat, so it's staying in the lake, waiting for them to bugger off.
Nah, it's just that Rayquaza has the worst luck. When Fox's Arwing was shot down by the Halberd, he probably smacked right into Rayquaza's head and knocked it into the lake. That's why it's so pissed at Fox.
Rayquaza believes that anyone who enters the ozone layer is invading his territory, so he was probably mad at Fox for flying through it. I guess he was hiding in the lake for the Arwing's pilot to come out, and he thought it was Diddy.
Deoxys pissed it off again, probably. By the way, why does it know Dig?
Maybe it's using Dive on land? (Hey, you can do that in the games!)
In Brawl, how is it that Mario can be at a stadium with Zelda, but then not recognize Link when he's teamed up Yoshi, one of his best friends?
A better question would be: how could Yoshi believe that Mario is capable of what they thought happened? However, there is more than one Yoshi.
Perhaps the trophies just jump up and fight at the first opportunity.
It's not that Mario doesn't recognize Link and Yoshi. It's that he's just seen Peach's trophy dissolve, which is tantamount to being Killed Off for Real in the Smash world. It's entirely understandable that he'd be a bit ticked off at Link under those circumstances.
I think it's important to point out that there are two alternate ways this scene plays out, just to avoid confusion.
Yeah, this troper saw Link trying to stab Mario from above with a vicious downstab.
For those of you who did not comprehend the above, the princess whose "trophy" dissolves can be either Peach or Zelda, depending on which one you saved as Kirby. Furthermore, the character whose duty it is to constantly rescue that princess sees the other one on the scene, assumes the worst, and is justifiably pissed.
Hadn't by that point in time both of them experienced the doppelganger powers of the enemies? Perhps they assumed the other one wasn't the real Mario or Link.
In Subspace Emissary, how in Din's name does Ganondorf, a wizard from a medieval world who spends most of his time either dead or sealed away, know how to use a computer?
He doesn't. The R.O.B.s do all the grunt work while he just stands in front of the screen and acts menacing. Alternatively, the bad guys buy their electronic systems from the same place most first-time mecha pilots do.
He's a wizard. He probably has spells for understanding things.
He's also depicted as an intelligent man in general, and it isn't really known how long he's had to cook up his current plan before it was set into motion. He could have had plenty of time to learn.
Well, seeing as the Subspace Emissary takes place in some kind of parallel universe where all the Nintendo characters coexist, it isn't much of a stretch to assume that that world's version of Ganondorf would know how to use computers. Even if he were the original Ganondorf, though, I'm sure that he would teach himself how to use them. He'd gladly use anything he can if it furthered his goals.
What makes no sense is after Lucas and the Pokémon Trainer beat Galleom, why couldn't the Trainer release his Charizard as they were falling to their doom? I'm sure Charizard is strong enough to carry two boys.
Either he couldn't reach the Pokéball grabbed like that, or he was unconscious.
The trainer looked pretty alive after he was grabbed and I think he could have gotten the ball after Lucas broke them free. If you meant Charizard, I don't see why it would be KO'd in the storyline since it was alive and kicking beforehand, and usually you can have all but one guy knocked out during the game and they magically come back in a cut scene.
He got knocked unconscious on the way up. Probably G-Forces. That's why Lucas had to grab him in the first place.
Alternate explanation: He doesn't have the badge needed to use Fly outside of battle.
Makes sense: For the FR/LG fly, you need to beat Lt. Surge. All our plucky hero had was a Squirtle...
How'd he catch Ivysaur and Charizard so easily though? Are they wild or did they belong to him and become separated?
I assumed he was always their trainer. He has pictures of them, like you'd have of a friend, and when he gets them back, the Poké Ball shoots out a red light, similar to how trained Pokémon return in the anime.
The respective cutscenes for capturing them are titled "I found you, Ivysaur!" and "I caught you, Charizard!" Make of that what you will.
Have you tried to fly as Charizard? He can barely carry himself up for a metre, imagine what it woud be like to carry a man and a boy up a massive tunnel.
Ever played Pokémon? Charizard learns the HM Fly which allows it to fly its trainer somewhere. Adding a little boy in the mix isn't that much more weight.
The Pokémon Trainer probably didn't use Charizard to save them because by the time he got it out of the Pokéball and issued the proper commands they'd be pancakes, they were falling pretty fast.
Why did the R.O.B.s need Pikachu as a power source? Don't they have their own generators or something? And what was Ridley doing in their base? Was he working for Tabuu like the other villains?
Clearly Ridley just busted into their base to harass Samus. It's all he does.
Or Ganondorf got an alarm from the facility, told Ridley that it was Samus, and things just fell into place.
Most likely, it was as much to keep Pikachu out of the way as it was to get a power source. He's proven himself a hero in the past, so he's as much a threat as any. Note that they seemed to be specifically targeting Pokémon — separating Trainer from his partners, aggravating Rayquaza, etc. Pikachu's kidnapping fits into the pattern.
It seemed more to me that Trainer was catching Ivysaur and Charizard for the first time. To fill out his Pokedex, presumably.
My guess is that Ridley was working for the Subspace Army, and he was there to make sure Samus doesn't take back her armor. And I think that they were using Pikachu to power everything because he can produce more electricity than a generator.
Pikachu can produce a great deal more power than anything they had, so they may have been using Pikachu to power the machines that were copying the Power Suit. Freeing Pikachu shut production down, which is why you didn't have to fight an entire horde of SA-X.
The experiments looked like classic Space Pirate hijinx (namely, hurting others to benefit themselves). The pirates could have had a role similar to Bowser, or maybe one similar to Wario... in either case it seems they weren't popular enough for the game to bother clarifying.
On that note, why doesn't Ganondorf use his sword? Y'know, the one that he pulls out in his taunt? Yeah. THAT one. Yeah, it makes for a decent joke on the dojo, but Sakurai, I would have much preferred it if you just let him use the freaking sword!
Maybe it was a tier thing. They already have three sword users, one of which (Ike) is rather slow and heavy, so Ganondorf would be, as some say, "an Ike spoof" or vice-versa. Then again, it might simply be for consistency matters: he didn't use it in Melee either... And yes, I'd like to see Ganondorf using a sword. And actually turning into Ganon as Final Smash, by the way.
Er, what? He does turn into Ganon. For a One-Hit Kill, I might add.
If he hits you. Anybody with decent jumping skills 'cept Bowser and Ganondorf can dodge it. There's a reason that he's currently bottom tier.
Except that Final Smashes play no part in the tier list due to being available from items.
Maybe he means doing it Giga Bowser style. Or turning into OoT Ganon.
I always saw it as he's bragging that he doesn't even need his swords, cause, you know... he doesn't!
Because they were too lazy to make Ganondorf not a clone of Captain Falcon.
Sort of — Ganondorf was originally going to use the sword as part of his new moveset but they couldn't program it in due to time constraints (He was one of the last characters announced as playable). They had the sword rendered, but didn't want to delay the game again for the sake of a single character. Toon Link still has no excuse.
If Mario can turn giant any time he wants, why doesn't he just stay like that and kick all asses!? It's a menacing taunt but an empty threat.
That would be unfair to the other fighters.
Without a Super Mushroom on hand, it takes all of his power to manage such a transformation by himself. He can't even move or lift his arms while doing it. Thus, its only purpose is to intimidate or impress. "Hey, you're that plumber guy who can become really big!"
It's just an old school taunt... if you notice, when he does that taunt, he stands -exactly- how he does in Super Mario Bros: head sideways, etc. Apparently, he can move while he does this too. Look closely in Melee and you'll notice his arms and fists shift slightly; in Brawl, it's the same, but he bends his knees slightly, too.
It's reminding everyone except Mr. G&W and DK that he's been doing this since their series were in diapers. That he's old, and he can still kick their butts.
Technically speaking, it was Cranky Kong in the original Donkey Kong, and he's DK grandfather, so DK doesn't count.
DK Jr is still really really old. Like 1982 old.
What the hell were Ike and Marth doing after Meta Knight left them up until they all battled Tabuu?
In the cutscene right before Mario's party arrive for the battle in the canyon, you can see them chumming up with Lucas and PT. Presumably, they didn't follow Meta Knight up the mountain because they figured him retaking the Halberd was something he's got to do himself. Alternatively, since Meta Knight can fly, and therefore scale the mountain faster then any of them, they assumed that by the time they climbed the mountain, let alone reach the Halberd, the battle would be over.
They took the kiddos out for ice cream.
Yay! Ice cream!
Well, it's possible that they couldn't even climb the mountain. MK could only do it because he has wings.
Indeed, they aren't Berserkers. Nor Brigands. And even then they'd go rather slowly.
In SSE, if you enter a certain door at a certaing stage (don't remember right now, please edit in case you do), you get to see Jigglypuff's introduction movie. She's performing at a Pokémon stage, nothing wrong with that... no, wait. We know that the bomb exploded to make the Stadium part of SubSpace, and I can't see any cities anywhere (and the ruins that exist don't seem too city-like in a modern way). Can anybody explain where the heck the Pokémon Stage is supposed to be in this 'verse?
Different stadiums. The Stadium Jigglypuff is in does not exist until Tabuu is defeated, so it likely was not built yet.
When did Fox, Falco, and Captain Falcon get fire powers?
Fox and Falco are wearing Slippy's custom made human rocket boosters. Captain Falcon learned fiery combat moves from an alien from another race as a reward during his bounty-hunting days. Wolf has no excuse.
I heard that Fire Fox and Fox Illusion come from a legend about Kitsunes creating illusions and doing some sort of... something with fire. Falco... still just does it because Hal got lazy.
Do the research — Wolf also has no moves that relate to fire.
I meant that Wolf had no excuse for being able to kick into the air. That is, unless he had some sort of weird air compression boosters or something. But that would just be silly.
Look on Wolf's back. He's wearing the jetpack from Assault.
You realize everyone can double jump already, right?
I always assumed it was a pun on foxfire (not to be confused with Firefox). Falco has it because he's a clone. I don't know why Captain Falcon has it.
Because his hands and feet move so fast they set on fire? Just throwing that out there.
It's because it's Captain Falcon. You don't argue with the goddamn falcon.
And Falcon's moveset apparently originated from when the game was in alpha and wasn't going to have Nintendo characters in it.
In the cutscene when Mario notices Princess Peach in King Dedede's possession, why doesn't he give a shit that his own brother is also trophified?
Anyway, to answer the question, I suppose, since Luigi was upside down at the time, that it's possible that Mario just plain didn't see him.
Luigi doesn't have boobs.
Possibly he noticed them all, but zeroed in on Peach because she got trophyfied and captured while he was there, and also because she's in the first lineup and not a secret character like his brother. (IIRC)
Err... has anybody noticed that everybody in the Mario-verse despised Luigi? And that's it's been a running gag for Luigi to suck for the last 9 years or so.
It's so that the scene will work with minimum changes in the alternate campaign path in which Zelda is the trophy and it's Link who notices her.
Mario chases down Bowser, and he's about to catch him when Bowser defends himself with his hostage. This stops him and allows Bowser to get away. Now, there's something to be said for a plan that works, but can anyone conceive of a possible universe in which Bowser would deliberately use Peach as a human shield?
Given that he knows Mario won't hurt Peach? It seems reasonable that Bowser would bluff the hero.
Besides, look at all the abuse Bowser gave Ganondorf's trophy. Not a scratch on it after all of that, though Ganondorf did "wake up" with a headache and no other character did, perhaps it was from Bowser's abuse?
On a related note, couldn't Mario have pulled his punch and... reached out his hand, touching her and restoring her to normal?
From the angle Mario was coming at, he couldn't have extended his hand in time to touch the trophy's base, he just would've punched it and hurt his hand.
As someone who rather frequently plays oldschool platformers, I find it very strange that Mario, Luigi, and Sonic don't seem to have any attacks capable of knocking people out of the arena by stomping on their heads or performing a spin attack. Even worse, Mario and Luigi have attacks that hurt the enemy by jumping up towards them. Try doing that to a goomba in the original Super Mario Brothers.
Everybody in Brawl can do a footstool jump, if that counts.
Not really, considering it does no daamge except to Goombas and Koopas in Subspace Emisary.
What about their down aerials? Luigi's is a stomp, and Mario's was until Brawl. Also, some of Sonic's spin moves are KO worthy. His up and down smashes come to mind.
Simple explanation. Smash Bros debuted when Super Mario 64 came out, so they're going to focus on moves from that rather than Super Mario Bros. The same thing with Sonic, only it's a last ditch attempt to make Next-Gen look like a decent game by putting in Silver and Blaze trophies.
Why do items (Home Run Bat, Fan, Capsule, Beam Sword, etc.) always stand up, going against the laws of physics?
In the days where 8 and 16 bits rule and 32 and 3d were just a dream, items stand up for identification (I'd like to imagine how players of Donkey Kong will know the works of that Hammer if it looks like it's lying down). SSB just runs at this rule for nostalgic reason.
In what I'd call a true example of Fridge Logic, it took me three installments of the series to wonder... how can Link's sword just bash people around instead of gruesomely cutting them instead? A sword is not a blunt weapon! This also applies to all the other sword users and the light saber as well (unless, of course, that's actually a fluorescent lamp on a handle... yeah).
They're trophies. They're not made of flesh; they're stronger stuff than that. And there's a chance that the swords are made of the same material. Thus, swords hit them and knock them away.
Ah, now that's a good explanation! Thanks a lot, that makes much more sense now.
As to the swords: They are blunt, you wouldn't want to give a kid a bunch of toys with razor-edged swords, and even if they were sharp enough to rip into a kid's hand, the edge of the blade would increase in bluntness as the size of the characters decreased. With regards to the lightsabers, that's just proof that SSB's framing device takes place 1000 years in the future. Or the kid has Star Wars toys, which usually go for a translucent plastic blade that looks kind of glowy when brightly lit.
Slapstick cartoon violence. Same reason Grand Theft Auto couldn't get away with slamming an 8-year-old with a baseball bat, but these games do.
Where are these recolored Pokémon coming from? Pikachu and Jigglypuff have been around since the original, and they have never been recolored; their alternate colors come from various adorable accessories. But what about Mewtwo, Lucario, and the trainer's choices? Why do they have so many alternate palettes? It can't be shininess; Mewtwo is the only one with his shiny color as an option. Is it because people can't recognize Pikachu if he isn't yellow? Do they not want to give Charizard a blue bandanna?
Well, in Stadium 1, they could get different colors from what nickname they have...
The reddish Pikachu is a shiny Pikachu with Red's original hat on. Some of the Pokémon are in shiny form too, and all of Red's costumes come from different game characters.
Can anyone explain why the shiny variations of Lucario, Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard are absent, since Pikachu's, Jigglypuff's, and Mewtwo's are present? I'd love to play the shinies of the missing ones! ('Cept maybe Squirtle, who's not really different from its original color).
Because they were too lazy to add them... Y'know, had they added them, they would have as many colors as a regular character, so why they didn't think of that? Certainly less effort than giving Wario 12 costumes.
How come Lucas and Ness can't use their signature moves? Why can't they use PK Rockin and PK Love?
Lucas's Smash-A-UP move IS PK LOVE. D: He even uses PK LOVE as a victory pose.
Isn't he pulling one of the needles from Mother 3 in that victory pose though?
Also, PK Rockin' has a different Japanese name (PK Kia], in case you were wondering), which could cause complications in voice acting should they have chosen to make Ness call his attack. And it could be a bit difficult to reduce Rockin' to something that didn't cover the whole screen (though they obviously did that with Lucas, as mentioned.
Also, how exactly would PK Kiai work? All I can think of is a Final Smash that involves Ness floating into the air and then warping around erratically, either building up power for a massive unavoidable attack (but not being invulnerable during this charging state, so that opponents can "avoid" the attack by hitting him enough to stop him from using it) or tracing damaging lines behind him that linger on the stage (thus creating a steadily-growing weblike hazard) before finally having the lines fly off the screen, pushing anybody caught between the lines and the screen's edge to a KO unless they dodged or got out of the way. (Then again, my original PK Rockin' idea was a bunch of steaks falling from the sky, which... is not a kiai. At all.)
This is about a trophy in Melee. Why is Misty from Pokémon in her anime costume? This is based off the games. Her anime and game costumes have always been completely different. There was one game based off the anime, but it was never released in Japan, since it was a hack of an already Japanese game.
Because the anime designs are what people think of when they think of Pokémon.
Yes, but this game strictly uses the games as its source, no matter how popular the anime is. Did Melee not have that rule?
"Strictly uses the games"? Did you miss Pikachu having the Anime voice acting? Or Lucario and Mewtwo for that matter? Pokémon Speak in general, which is mostly absent from the main series outside of Yellow Version?
Also the fact that Misty wears that outfit in Yellow? So... she wears it in the games just fine?
Why is Ganondorf, one of the most powerful and unique villains in the series, nothing more than a Captain Falcon clone in Smash Bros.? If they needed a slower Captain Falcon that badly, they should've used Black Shadow or something. For that matter, why is Wolf suddenly so much more feral?
Ganondorf was a clone in Melee because he wasn't originally going to be in the game and was only put in once they decided to make clones. He's still a clone in Brawl for a variety of reasons — Ganondorf was staying, but they didn't have anyone to give the moveset to (another F-Zero character clearly wasn't in the plans) and didn't want to openly taunt Ganondorf fans from Melee by including the character and not the moveset, so...
We've never really seen Wolf fight outside his ship (aside from in Assault's multiplayer mode, but he had a huge arsenal at his disposal there).
Black Shadow died in GX, killed by Deathborn, who also died. No F-Zero characters available. Not a good excuse, since Melee fans should be happy to have one less clone, but it's an excuse.
F 1 Zero takes place in a comic book universe, so unless Black Shadow is Uncle Ben, he's coming back.
Er, so? Since when has the original series' status quo mattered that much in SSB?
Exactly. Note the presence of Ganondorf.
Ganondorf's the kind of character who just doesn't stay dead. (Except for after The Wind Waker, but that's one of two timelines, and the Ganondorf in Brawl comes from Twilight Princess, which follows the "Child Link" timeline, where The Wind Waker follows the "Adult Link" timeline.)
On a related note, why did they make Toon Link almost exactly like Young Link (and by proxy, Adult Link?) "Wind Waker" had a lot of items and moves that could have been used instead of the sword spin, boomerang, bow, etc. To say nothing of the huge assortment of other equipment Link has had throughout the series.
Simple: Toon Link ran out of Magic Power. That renders most of his equipment that he's not already using useless.
King K. Rool is the same person as Kaptain K. Rool. NOT HIS BROTHER. Fucking trophy descriptions. They did not do the research.
OK, why was there no confrontation between ROB and Ganondorf near the end of Subspace Emissary? Ganondorf murdered all of ROB's friends/subjects, laughing his ass off all the while! How could ROB not confront Ganondorf when they teamed up?
'Cause Ganondorf is friggin' scary.
I have to admit, they didn't cover all the bases right before the Great Maze. One, they didn't have much-braver Lucas meet with Ness. Still, the above could be explained by ROB not seeing Ganondorf or that ROB's still BSODed from the destruction of his homeland.
How come they didn't use some very obvious palette swaps? Ones that come to mind:
Ike's PoR Lord outfit
Lucario's Shiny Form
Charizard's Shiny Form (Granted, it might have been hard to work in with Squirtle and Ivysaur)
Use the shinies of the other two for the same set. I would love to play shiny Ivysaur. Sure, they wouldn't be single-color themed, but who cares if the three team colors are already there. Or put Ivysaur in green team, Charizard in a "dark" theme, and... uh... dunno what to do for Squirtle.
Dark Samus (Though they might have thought the Dark Suit was enough).
Shadow or Silver shout out palettes for Sonic.
I'm still waiting on a maskless Meta Knight option for Kirby.
Heck, they could have at least made Dr. Mario a palette swap for Mario.
This HUGELY bugs me: Why, why, why, why is Goldeen useless? For three games now, they haven't figured out that Magikarp is the useless Pokémon who just splashes around... and Goldeen is actually quite powerful? Especially if you, say, drop it in the water??
But there's no fighting in the water in Smash Bros. The only levels which have water are either too shallow or you can barely stay there, plus throwing the Pokéball in water doesn't work. The joke is derived from the anime, where Goldeen was the prime example of why not to use a fish Pokémon on land.
It's an in joke from the show. One eps Misty used a Pokéball that had a Goldeen in there and the Goldeen splashed around like it does in Smash Bros, because it was on land.
And it should have been a Magikarp then, too.
Goldeen ISN'T useless, at least not in Melee. While you have to be extremely lucky to pull it off, getting an enemy hit with Goldeen's horn is a 1HKO, no matter what.
"While you have to be extremely lucky ... 1HKO, no matter what." wat
Meta Knight's alignment in Subspace Emissary bugs me for several reasons. In the Kirby games, he is MORE evil than Dedede, yet he is a protagonist in SSE. Sure, the Halberd was stolen, and you could use that as motivation to put him in with the good guys, making him simply Neutral in alignment, but he saves Lucas's life later on! Without any kind of motivation to do so that we saw! This at least makes him Neutral Good. What's MORE bothersome to me is that Super Smash Bros was directed by the same person who directed his game!
He was the leader of a group of soldiers bent on destroying Dream Land with a giant ship that doubled as a massive weapon. How is that not more evil than Dedede who just stole Dream Land's entire food supply at worst?
That's the American version of "Revenge of Meta Knight". The Japanese version has Meta Knight wanting to end Pop Star's lazy ways and get everyone motivated to do stuff. Kirby does not agree with not being lazy and fights him.
That's not even the American version. The American version has him wanting to end laziness. The Japanese version mentions something about cleansing Dream Land's "corruption". It's never made clear on exactly what he means by that, but he's unquestionably good in Amazing Mirror and Squeak Squad, and is implied to be a Stealth Mentor to Kirby in Adventure, so it's likely that he had some Well-Intentioned Extremist ideas in mind. The worst you can accuse him of is being an Anti-HeroAntagonist, albeit one with very poor communication skills, Blood Knight tendencies, and an inability to tolerate Kirby's methods.
Wait, so, in order to be lazy, Kirby takes out an army?
Why is damage expressed as a percentage? I understand why it counts up, but is 100% actually a threshold for anything?
Well, since you don't actually kill anyone but knock them off the stage, I always figured it's how much you softened them up for flying around, with 100% being 'normal' knockback. If you hit anyone at 0%, they basically just flinch (cause they're at about 5% now) and at 100%, it's at lighter Punched Across the Room levels, which is normal for games.
That and so people can be like "Whoa I'm at 238%!", which usually results in everyone trying to kill that character but failing because they're too impatient to connect a hit properly.
Your get-up-from-the-ledge attack changes to a slower animation when you hit 100%. Most obvious with Donkey Kong and Bowser.
How did Snake find out about Samus? The explanation is because of how she walks, but she doesn't have a feminine walk at all.
He's Snake. He can tell.
A woman with Samus'... "talent"... would probably have a slightly different distribution of weight across their body, possibly enough to effect the way they walk.
It's a reference to the original MGS where Snake recognizes Meryl in disguise.
I know this sounds stupid, but why, in a game that's supposed to celebrate all the different things Nintendo did, does everything seem so flat and shallow?. All Metroid stages just seem to be floating platforms over lava with either Brinstar or Zebes slapped on them. Starfox stages are just on spaceships when we all know that there were far more interesting locations, no thanks to Adventures and Assault. Onett and New Pork City look nothing like they do in the games. Mario stages just seem like they're just modeled after either the NES or N64 games. Everything it seems about Pokémon is mostly from the cartoons... Why? I understand there's only so much you can do with a game, but seriously, it just seems everything's all too shallow and misrepresented, especially considering Sakurai and crew had all the games and references readily available (or so it would seem). Could anyone explain this?
Also take into account that a lot of stages are based on the most popular game of a series or the most recent game at the time (Star Fox especially, the Star Fox 64 versions of Great Fox, the Arwings and the Wolfens are everywhere, and even the Landmaster combines the Assault look with the 64 look. Especially egregious in Lylat Cruise, where we go from the Cornerian Fleet vs Venomian Fleet using Assault-style models to the Star Fox/Star Wolf dogfight using the 64 models). But, on the other hand, not everything is "shallow". Yoshi got stages based on Super Mario World, Yoshis Story, and Super Mario World 2: Yoshi's Island; Donkey Kong has 75m, Link has a stage from Zelda II The Adventure Of Link; and all of the Pokémon stages (except for Poke Floats) are from the games (remember the Pokémon Stadium games?).
Why does Marth have dialogue like "There's no way I can lose" and "Everyone look at me"? In his games, he's characterized as an almost disgustingly niceMessiah type who never acts condescending and he is often unsure of himself.
I think it's supposed to be The Artifact of Sigurd being planned as the Fire Emblem representant first or something. Of course, I don't know if the whole "They planned to use Sigurd" thing is real or not.
Sigurd? Suddenly Marth's moveset makes sense.
Is it really "Everyone look at me!"? I always figured it was "Everyone, watch over me!" and in asking for his (presumibly dead) FE partners to give him strength.
Marth is a prince and commander of an army fighting for his lost nation. Would you not want the undivided attention of your comrades and forces?
Sakurai told us that in the Subspace Emissary we would "see the characters struggle under the weight of their personal histories". And we saw Lucas go from being a wuss to a hero (since Mother 3 was never going to come to America)... Samus and Ridley have yet another confrontation... um... Pokémon Trainer catch some Pokémon... Diddy Kong almost get eaten by Rayquaza... yeah, Lucas is pretty much the only character who has anything worth calling "struggling under personal history". Unless Peach being kidnapped (yet again), Donkey Kong getting his bananas stolen (yet again), Zelda being captured (yet again), King Dedede doing something suspicious that turns out to be helping (yet again), etc. etc. somehow count.
Most Nintendo characters lack Character Development, so there wasn't much to do with them on that regard. Lucas is one of the exceptions. Still, it could've been handled better.
Manaphy. Heart Swap. Ice Climbers or Pokémon Trainer. Explain.
For the Ice Climbers, the leader's heart gets switched, and the follower doesn't realize it and keeps following him/her. But you've got me on the Pokémon Trainer.
I guess you could say the trainer and his opponent switch hearts, so the opponent now commands the Pokémon (who don't realize that they're actually taking orders from a fraud and beating up their master).
But the problem with that is that it shows the switch between the Pokémon and the opponent, not the trainer and the opponent. Which means that the trainer could use Pokémon Switch and make a huge mess of everything.
And while we're on the topic, what about ROB?
ROB, I assume, has an actual "spirit" (Or whatever it is that actually gets switched.) and as such could switch just fine with the organic characters. Adapting to an organic body would be difficult though, I imagine.
Why doesn't Zelda just teleport or switch to Sheik to break out of the cage?
Because both her and Sheik's teleport moves are blocked by terrain. The walls of the cage would have stopped her anyway.
How the hell did Pit beat out Little Joe? Who thought Pit was more suited than an actual boxer, and where on earth is Kid Icarus even a fraction as a popular as Punchout? I say Punchout to ANYONE who owns a NES, we get a nostalgic conversation. I say "Kid Icarus" and they have no idea what I'm on about. And apparently Kid Icarus wasn't popular enough to get a Wii remake but Punchout was. Or did this game need a character with a super spam attack of doom?
You mean Little Mac? My best guess is because he'd have such a limited moveset, since boxers by definition can only punch. It's not like R.O.B. or Captain Falcon, where the developers can just make new moves up.
Yeah, that's true. With characters like Pit, you can hand him new weapons, but it wouldn't make sense to suddenly give a regular 'ol boxer a sword or a laser gun or flaming fists.
They gave Fox, Falco, Wolf, and Captain Falcon completely original movesets. Yeah, Mac is a boxer, but there are a wide variety of punches, and they could have just added some effects to them (Side B as a dashing straight-arm punch, Up B as a Shoryuken-like uppercut, etc). The various A attacks can be quick jabs, hooks, body punches. Grab jab be a headbutt, throws be body checks and fist thrusts.
Or they could focus on the fact the gameplay on Punchout is half punching and half dodging punches, and give Little Mac a moveset based around dodges and feints. Perhaps Down B made him raise his guard, better than actually pressing the guard button, or lower his head and make him impervious to attacks for a split second. His side B could have him take a step back (dodging an incoming attack) before delivering a sliding straight punch. Neutral B could have him do his little warm-up dance, lowering his damage percentage. Perhaps have lower-B not only dodge an attack, but if succesful, you can press B again to have a counter, or to get a star. They could also give him his training moves from the cutscenes, such as the jump-rope, only the rope hits anyone nearby.
They've been trying to get Pit into the Smash Bros. games for years, but for the past few games, they were having problems animating the wings. They weren't really able to do it until this one.
Look at the pictures of Ridley and Meta Ridley on the character page. Why did Ridley lose a finger on each hand during the augmentation process?
He wasn't so much augmented as destroyed and rebuilt.
In The Subspace Emissary, something about two particular levels bugs me: The opening Mario VS Kirby fight, and the Meta Knight VS Lucario battle later on. You can play as either character and fight the other, which is a good idea and all, but here's what bugs me: if you lose, you get a Game Over, when really, shouldn't it have instead triggered the cutscene for the other character winning and just continue? Plot-wise it makes no sense, and when playing on Intense Difficulty it'd be a nice relief in case you lose.
It's Up to You in full effect. Yeah, I agree this one wasn't thought too far.
In addition to the above, it's probably also so the player doesn't get lazy and... well... stop fighting.
What's with Zelda's victory animation? She looks so moody or depressed. Is she supposed to be lost in thought or something? Unlike the Sheik pose, it doesn't come off as so.
Considering Brawl's version of Zelda is based off of TP's Zelda, who was rather solemn and melancholic, it makes sense.
Why can you dodge a Gooey Bomb explosion by sidestepping or roll dodging? You should not be able to avoid damage from AN EXPLOSIVE STUCK TO YOUR GODDAMN FACE by sidestepping!
Gameplay factor. You're not in the same "dimension" as the bomb. Therefore, it has no effect.
Something about Snake's codec conversations has always bugged me. He's aware of who Mario and Luigi are, but not Princess Peach or Bowser?
Easy, he never beat Super Mario Bros, and played an earlier version where Peach wasn't named and had a crappy eight bit sprite. Alternatively he played a version that didn't feature Bowser or Peach like the original Mario Bros arcade game. Alternatively he just knows Mario by Pop Culture Osmosis.
Definitely Pop Culture Osmosis; more non-gamers can name Mario and Luigi than they can Bowser or the princess' actual name.
That being said, Snake was really defensive of Luigi when "Colonel" insulted him, so who knows.
Does anyone else find it weird that the codec screen also displays "Press Select", something only available on a Playstation?
Or, you know, a Wii Classic Controller.
Does anyone else think that Ivysaur's appearance/capture was just poorly written. He's just a trophy standing in the middle of a hallway for no reason. At least Charizard had been seen before and was then battled...
I just assumed that Ivysaur challenged Charizard, who beat him and continued, leaving Ivy a statue.
And speaking of, you spend quite a while with just Squirtle, and then suddenly they give you the two other mons in a row. Spacing them out a little would've been nice.
How come the Pokémon Anime Theme isn't available for the Pokémon Stadium 2 stage, even though most people know it more than the Pokémon Game's main theme? Just doesn't make much sense.
Well, Sakurai's main rule for Brawl was no characters from Mangas, Animes, Comics. It all had to be from a video game initially. (R.O.B. was a special exception.) This could easily have applied to music. So Video Game Music was in, while Anime music was out.
Original poster here. I was thinking this, but it contradicts so much, Misty's trophy (in Melee) has her in her anime clothes, Pokémon Trainer's voice in Brawl is clearly based on Ash, and, most importantly: Pokémon saying their names came from the anime!
PT is not Ash; he has a different appearance, different voice, and different mannerisms. What's odd is that PT's voice, Michele Knotz, does voices for the anime, but hasn't voiced any notable male trainers. (She was May and is still Jessie and Joy, at least.)
They already needed to get the go-ahead and music from Game Freak and bring the new anime voice cast to reprise the Pokémon voices. Getting 4Kids involved as well wouldn't have been worth the effort. (Also, isn't it more likely that we'd end up with the Japanese opening theme? And on that subject, you know there have been at least thirteen "Pokémon Anime Themes" in the US alone, right?)
Original poster again. Three things:
One: Whoever was the the poster of "PT is not Ash", I would like to inform you that I never said that. I said his voice is BASED on Ash, NOTis.
But he's not. He is based on the Pokémon trainers that are found in the games themselves, and there is nothing about his portrayal (aside from the use of all three starters, which is also true for a few random trainers and Red as he appears in Gold/Silver) that implies that he draws more influence from the anime's portrayal of Ash than the game's character designs.
Two: The Pokémon Anime theme I was referring to was the first English one ("I wanna be the very best, like no one ever was,...). Which is the most well-known by Pokémon fans, even moreso than the game's theme. As for the Japenese theme, they could do what they did with the WarioWare tunes, which had the English and Japanese versions of the vocal themes.
Except that this was made by Japanese game designers, who don't really care about the songs that their properties' anime adaptations receive in the US. Even given the WarioWare examples (and Pikmin, for that matter), the songs were pulled from the game itself (note the lack of a song from even the Japanese release of an anime based on any of their franchises), and since the tunes weren't actually changed in the dub process, they were able to use the same backing arrangement and just get two different voice casts to sing each work. Granted, a counterexample to the "same tune" argument exists in the game's use of "Sonic Boom" from Sonic CD, but even that song came from the game.
Three: In Melee, Misty's trophy shows her in her anime clothes. Wouldn't they need to ask 4Kids for that?
No. She was originally drawn by Japanese artists, for one thing. Even given the things they did need from 4Kids, such as the assistance of their voice actors, that was done for Melee. You're asking why they didn't grab the song for Brawl, which postdated the localization company switch and would therefore require additional work and backstage politics.
To clarify the answer better, they would prefer to use game stuff in a game. Music, Characters, etc. Likewise, the no Anime thing was specific to Brawl, not Melee or 64. That's why the Misty argument doesn't apply here. However, Pokémon Trainer doesn't use a voice in-game. So they went with an actor who voices a character similar to Red/Pokémon Trainer, and that's all. Another thing about the music is that they were using music that would be in all versions of the game, so using ones specific to Japan or America has little sense to it (besides not being video game music). Of course, in the case of using English or Japanese songs (or other languages), they just included it in all versions anyway. Also, the original Pokémon Themes for season 1 are very, very old, and really don't have a reason to be in this game. Especially when they have nothing to do with the games either.
Even though the idea of Pokémon Speak debuted in the anime, it was later included in Pokémon Yellow. Misty never used her anime outfit in the games, but the character was created for and featured in the games. The anime theme song, no matter how beloved it may be, has never been included in a Pokémon game. Boom.
The opening themenote Although, it's a rudimentary remix of the actual song. of Pokemon Puzzle League says hi. Checkmate! Additionally, age should have no bearing on whether a song is included in the Super Smash Bros. series, considering that "25m BGM" (the original music track) is ripped from a videogame released in 1980, older than each and every Pokémon song in existence, videogame or anime — let alone every original Super Smash Bros. song. Also, for what it's worth, the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, as of 2012, also continues to use the 1st English Pokémon anime theme, despite the song's age. Moreover, the Game Boy Advance is capable of playing the actual, original Pokémontheme song (English anime) via the Game Boy Advance Video cartridges (as an example, the anime's 1st episode was included in English on such a GBAV cartridge). Either way, the Pokémon anime 1st English theme has been included in videogame format in some manner, so it's primed for inclusion in a post-BrawlSuper Smash Bros. game if the producers so desire. As a side-note, Pokémon Puzzle League and the Game Boy Advance Video feature also serve as an excuse for the inclusion of Pokémon Speak in Brawl (for Charizard and Squirtle, at least). The purported "game-only" rule introduced in Brawl doesn't seem to hold much weight, especially when Goldeen can use Splash in Brawl, a reference specifically derived from the Pokémonanime with no Pokémon game basis, since Goldeen could not learn Splash at all at Brawl's release.note Goldeen can "use" Splash via Mimic, but this page at the Smash Bros. DOJO!! identifies the specific move a Pokémon is using (this even applies to moves that take the form of other moves, such as Togepi and Metronome) and explicitly states that Goldeen is using Splash rather than Mimic. If anime elements like that can be included in Brawl, surely "Pokémon Theme" could be included as well?
Misty wears her "Anime Oufit" as you call in in Yellow. It's thus a game thing too. The end.
The asker of the question really is underestimating the importance of the whole 4Kids thing. They no longer dub the show. The dub switch was a significant deal, to the point that Carter Cathcart (Gary Oak, among other characters) has never done a 4Kids production since he decided to remain with the new voice cast, and his characters in other 4Kids works were recast. While I cannot explain the politics behind Rachael Lillis continuing to voice Jigglypuff in this game, the simple fact is that Nintendo would no longer have free access to everything 4Kids has produced that wasn't in the first two games, and that includes the song they recorded for the first season anime. (As a side note, Pokémon Puzzle League was a 4Kids project itself; it doesn't even have a Japanese version.)
In Subspace Emissary, what's with all the Suspiciously Similar Substitutes? I mean, there's nothing wrong with original generation enemies, but it's stupid if they are extremely similar to already exsisting enemies. Take Jyk, for example. A Jyk behaves exactly like a Gordo. And in 'Sea of Clouds', Fyesh first appear, who happen to look extremely similar to monoeyes (it's even a Kid Icarus-inspired stage, which makes it all the more jarring). The only classic Nintendo enemies are off Mario; and while I like Mario games, I think they should have included other enemies as well. It doesn't really make sense if there are one group of classic enemies, and the rest are original. They should have had enemies like Waddle Dees, Waddle Doos, and Gordos, especially because of the fact that they were already in the game (as one of Dedede's moves). And they could have had octoroks and likelikes. Overall, the choices for SSE enemies doesn't quite make sense.
It doesn't mention it on Smash Wiki's beta elements page.
Would have been nice to see some of the Space Pirates from Metroid too.
Lemme get this straight. How is it that Ness, who had games released in America, is hard to understand in the English versions of the games (PK Tenor!) while the Japan-only Lucas speaks English perfectly?
What's worse is that Kirby is voiced by the same woman who voices Ness, and Kirby with a Ness hat can say "PK Flash" perfectly!
Based on this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNA7JTUbk6s Lucas and Ness seem to have kept their Japanese voices in the English version. If this is true, then Lucas was played by Lani Minella, an American voice actress, while Ness was played by Makiko Ohmoto, a Japanese voice actress.
Why is it so tough switching to Zero Suit Samus using the taunt trick?
Because just like the smash taunts, the buttons have to be pressed for exactly one frame.
Just what exactly does most of Team Mario (Mario, Pit, Link, and Yoshi, specifically) accomplish in the Subspace Emissary storyline? Their appearance-to-accomplishment ratio is very wonky, since despite appearing for most of the early parts of the story they basically spend all their time chasing around the Ancient Minister or Dedede, but don't manage to actually do anything.
A surprisingly good point, especially since their most obvious goal of saving Peach/Zelda doesn't get accomplished until Snake, Meta-Knight and Lucario take over the case. They don't even recruit anyone to the cause. Their only true contribution to the final outcome, aside from being possible party members in the final assault, is hiding Dedede, Ness, and Luigi from Bowser, and that was by accident.
While they don't, they're all main heroes (except Yoshi, who's a pet), so they get a surprisingly good amount of screentime solely based upon their status. As for Pit, he's just a main hero, which is also why Kirby has nearly equal screen time (not counting being a Kirby character, and guaranteed importance in an obviously Kirby-inspired game and story). As for actual purpose, Pit and Yoshi bother me more. They literally do nothing important. Mario and Link a tleast has a small rivalry during the Zelda/Peach statue scene.
I don't know, Pit seemed to have at least have a (relatively small and unexplained) story behind him. Yoshi was just really random. "Hey, I was just sleeping over there but I think we should go stop that army, Mr. Armed Green Hero Boy!"
What exactly are Dedede's badges? Why does he even have timed devices to release characters from trophy-age? He probably doesn't know what they do, because if he was intending to help the heroes, he could have just touched their trophy stands.
He wouldn't be able to because he was already a Trophy. The Timed Badges were a case of Crazy-Prepared, and perhaps doing the research a bit. Basically, he must've known about Tabuu's Off Waves attack, and/or his ability to turn people into a trophy. The only way to prevent it was to make sure he was partially defeated first. But if everybody's already a trophy, it won't work.
When you think about it, the bigger headscratcher is why didn't anyone do it before. There is plenty of Fridge Horror involved in becoming something inert and lifeless (even if it beats realistic death, because you can be revived). Anyone sensible (and/or Genre Savvy) in the setting would want a self-revive ability to avoid And I Must Scream. Especially when there are Jerkasses like Wario who collect trophies for kicks with no intent of reviving them.
Am I the only one who hasn't noticed a difference between Melee and Brawl!? I mean, I only found out here on This Wiki that there are (apparently) differences in Melee and Brawl's gameplay. I've played Melee and Brawl to death, and haven't noticed a difference. There's all those people who diss Brawl because it is somehow "Casual" compared to Melee, which apparently has more strategy. Erm, How? Even the creator said he regrets aiming Melee towards tournament players. How is there a difference!?!
While I haven't actually played Melee (nor am I anywhere near the level to play either game competitively), my research indicates that gravity and hit-stun is higher in Melee than in Brawl. Plus, the simplified Air Dodge implemented in Brawl eliminates the possibility of advanced techniques such as Wave-dashing and L-Canceling. These differences result in Melee having more fast-paced, combo-oriented game-play that can alienate younger gamers from the competitive scene, while Brawl has slower, more defensively-oriented game-play that, while easier to pick up, tends to alienate gamers who are used to Melee's competitive Meta Game. Of course, there will always be people who can pick up Melee's style of game-play and comboing with ease, as well as people who can perform incredible combos in Brawl. However, I doubt that these differences are all that apparent in 1-Player modes and matches against a CPU. You are more likely to see this in the online Meta Game, Although it is easy to notice that the ledges in Brawl are easier to grab than the ledges in Melee. The comments in theseposts have a plethora of interesting opinions on this whole debacle. If the upcoming next game had a way to combine accessibility with combo-ability, that would be great, even though it probably would not stop the Unpleasable Fanbase from throwing a fit.
This troper wonders what Link and Zelda were thinking when they revived Ganondorf. They're obviously hesitant about it, but do they really need the power of the unified Triforce so much that they revive the guy who has followed them across history, "dooming them to wander a blood-soaked sea of darkness for all time"? I mean, the guy has a history of backstabbing his "allies", and the moment they turn their backs he clenches his fist and covers it in purple energy before dispersing it and following them up the stairs.
They were about to fight an entity that OHKO'ed all of the heroes in one fell swoop before, and who Ganondorf clearly antagonizes (at the moment they find him), seeing how he's trophyfied. An entity who completely overpowered the Master Hand, which seems to be the closest thing to a god in the Smash Bros. canon (even if a malevolent one). Yes, they needed all the help they could find, that was an Enemy Mine situation if there ever was any.
Probably because quite a few cast members are children. A.K.A Ness, Lucas, Young/Toon Link, Diddy Kong (I think?), Sonic (he's 15, still quite young), Nana and Popo, and Roy (also a young teen). You can also get violent with Peach and Zelda, too. The ESRB is probably playing it safe by rating it Teen, because parents might complain about their young children playing a game where you can beat children up in an E-rated game. Granted, it's slapstick, but pausing clearly shows the character in pain when hit. Again, they just played it safe to avoid a lawsuit from over-protective soccer moms.
I'm assuming that Melee got bumped up to T because one, there wasn't E10 at the time, and two, the graphics were more realistic than the original game; Brawl retained the T rating because of ZSS and Wario Waft.
In Melee, the last sentence in the Giga Bowser trophy says "Good luck deafeating this collossus". Why would they put that there if you have to defeat Giga Bowser in order to get the trophy in the first place?
Because they're two different, unrelated stages? Just because one looks old doesn't mean another should.
Unrelated? Might I remind you that Mario made his first appearance in Donkey Kong.
So? You're missing the point. Mushroomy Kingdom and 75m are not from the same series, not from the same game, and within Smash Bros. are just not linked. There isn't continuity between them. You might as well ask why the Zelda or Metroid stages don't look old, they're from games just as old as SMB. Or you could ask why the characters don't look 20 years older than they do.
Because Mushroomy Kingdom is an abandoned playground version of World 1-1 and 1-2. 75M is an Eight bit looking replica in a polygon using game. Different gimmicks.
I always got confused in the Subspace battle where Mario/Pit fight Link/Yoshi because of a misunderstanding with the princess. A huge part of Poor Communication Kills, but Mario's FRIEND was with Link at the moment ... why couldn't they just recognize each other and try to explain things?
From Mario/Link's point of view, this man had just killed off their princess. With Mario/Link's knowledge that Peach/Zelda would never intentionally start a fight, they would have assumed the other pair started it. It was more or less blind anger at that point, they weren't willing to listen to reason at the time.