open/close all folders
- Do they have birth control in the Star Wars universe? That seems like it would be a sensible thing for Amidala and Anakin to use, given how they were trying to keep their relationship relatively secret, not to mention other complications it would help avoid.
- Anakin has never been one to show even a hint of foresight, so it's unlikely that he would have thought to suit up. As for Amidala, she seems like the romantic type, and was totally fine with being pregnant. Maybe she was hoping that an upcoming child would convince Anakin to resign from the Jedi Order (others have left the Order in the past) and settle down to live as a real couple.
- Padme didn't want Anakin to leave the Order at all. She felt it was important for him to stay a Jedi and not waste his talents.
- Her opinion might have changed as the war raged on, keeping them apart. She might have wanted to reconsider their respective careers.
- They had been married for a couple years now, so likely they did use contraception beforehand. Probably after three years they just forgot to use it that one time.
- Or they had an "accident on purpose" by unspoken mutual consent. They probably both wanted to start a family like a normal married couple, and just hoped they could make it work out once it happened.
- Maybe Anakin subconsciously wanted kids, and his Force-powers suppressed the effects of Padme's birth control pills (or whatever SW women use) without either of them consciously intending it to happen.
- Like real-world birth control, it may not be 100% effective, and Luke and Leia being born may have been the will of the Force.
"Let me fight the Emperor"
- After seeing the recording of Anakin killing younglings, Obi-Wan says "Let me fight the Emperor." However, at that point in the story, Obi-Wan isn't supposed to know that Palpatine had proclaimed himself Emperor.
- He might have overheard some of the clones still patrolling the temple talking about it. Though only shown guarding the perimeter in the film, the clones were shown to be patrolling the interior as well in the novel, possibly look for any survivors. Obi-Wan and Yoda make the clone troopers increasingly alarmed by making small patrols disappear and reappear, dead, in out-of-the-way areas.
- He may also be making a leap of logic based on what he knows of the Sith. Sith like to establish an Empire and an Emperor. Palpatine has just had himself declared grand potentate with sole discretionary power of the Republic. The fact that Palpatine is not actually Emperor in title is effectively a technicality at that point, and Obi-Wan knows that.
- You know how quickly you learn who the new president is, even if you aren't paying attention to the election? It's like that, only their universe has much better/faster communication and Palpatine outright wants everyone to know he's now in charge. Obi-wan undoubtedly learned on Bail's ship or on his way to the Temple.
- Bail was in the senate chambers when Palpatine turned the Republic into an Empire. There's no way he didn't bring that up during the trip back to Coruscant.
- Why did Palpatine, the most credible threat the Jedi had ever known, stop the (seemingly mandatory) midi-chlorian testing on all children in the galaxy? He knew at least two of the most powerful Jedi were kicking around somewhere, and he got rid of the midi-chlorian tests? He could've trained them to be pilots or bodyguards or anything that Force-sensitives have been shown to be inherently talented at, but he didn't. Seems like a huge oversight.
- I don't remember that being in either the film or the novel for Revenge of the Sith. The Jedi did testing to find new potential Jedi. Palpatine does not need new recruits. My guess that any found Force-sensitives would be exterminated as quickly as possible or otherwise caused to disappear. Palpatine does use Force-sensitives as spies and assassins, Mara Jade being a well-known example.
- As far as I knew, the midi-chlorian testing was just the Jedi having centers that people could bring their kids to to get them tested. Either way, this was likely a Jedi run thing. Palpy continuing the practice means he has to explain why to a public that may not like him doing the same thing that the tyrannical and supposedly traitorous Jedi did.
- The Empire basically outlawed religion and their propaganda painted the Jedi as charlatans and traitors. Keeping up the testing would have implied all of that was untrue. Very, very few Force-sensitives can do anything spectacular without training. Even Luke, during the time between A New Hope and The Empire Strikes Back had not progressed beyond being able to move small objects (like his lightsaber) with considerable difficulty. For some vague reason the surviving Jedi (who were shockingly numerous in the EU) were doing nothing to try to rebuild their Order, instead roaming the galaxy as lone wolf fugitives. Observing this, Palpatine probably wasn't too worried about untrained Force-sensitives being a problem.
- Also, Palpatine didn't know Luke and Leia were out there, he and Vader both thought they died with Padme (and they didn't even know she was carrying twins). And as others state, any searching for untapped Force-Sensitives would have to be very low-key, so Palpatine didn't give people a reason to start asking awkward questions about him.
- Why was Padme's body made to look like she was still pregnant? None of the Senators or Naboo people knew she had been. Only Palpatine knew, but the Jedi wouldn't have known that.
- She needed to appear pregnant in order to protect the twins. If they're believed to be dead with her, no one is going to be looking for them.
- Indeed, but there'd need to be someone who'd care to look in the first place. Again, the Jedi didn't know Palpatine knew about her pregnancy, but should know from Bail that none of the other Senators knew yet.
- Actually, they'd be absolute fools to think that Palpatine would not know of Padme's pregnancy. Anakin knew, to an extent became Vader because of it, creating the possibility that Palpatine would also know something like that. Though Obi-Wan and Yoda may have been unaware that Anakin/Vader was still alive rather than the incredibly charred corpse he appeared to be before donning the iconic black suit, there is no way they would underestimate Palpatine again. If the man even suspected, and probably did sense, Padme's pregnancy, steps to keep the Skywalker twins' existence a secret would be critical. Really, there is very little way the man that orchestrated the twin falls of the Republic and the Jedi Order did not know of the pregnancy. Risking him investigating and discovering two Force-sensitives with the same incredible potential as their father was not an option.
- Ah. Makes sense, considering Yoda had just witnessed Palpatine's power over the Force.
- On the other hand, they did see Anakin referred to as Vader on the recording in the Temple, and a dark-side force user named Darth Vader who wears life-support armor popping up might be a tad conspicuous.
- There's nothing to lose from Obi-Wan and Yoda's perspective by making Padme seem pregnant. OTOH, if anyone knew she was pregnant and then sees her not pregnant during her funeral, then the jig is up. Sure its likely Anakin was the only one who knew and he's likely dead but why take the chance?
- Assuming no one but a select few knew about the pregnancy is kind of a logical fallacy. Padme was quite obviously pregnant, and she wasn't hiding herself away. The secret wasn't that she was pregnant, it was that Anakin was the father (fairly spelled out by Obi-Wan when he says as such). Considering that, and that they'd be stupid to assume Palpatine didn't know, making her appear to be still pregnant after her death was pretty much a no-brainer. Couple that with the SE conversation in Empire, where Vader's response to the intel that the son of Anakin Skywalker destroyed the first Death Star ("How is that possible?") and it wouldn't have made any sense NOT to fake it.
- Why didn't Obi-Wan and Yoda, instead of separately taking on Sidious and Anakin, get a squad of Bail Organa's soldiers, march in together to the Emperor's office and kill the Emperor? And then they can take down Anakin in the same way. Two against one are pretty good odds for Yoda and Obi-Wan And another thing, why did Yoda leave the Senate building. He and Sidious were pretty much equals from what it looked like. He gets knocked to the floor and chooses to run? Why wouldn't Yoda Force his lightsaber to him and try to kill Sidious again? It's only the fate of the ENTIRE GALAXY.
- Read the novelization. Its clear there that Yoda could not win that fight. Also, it would be incredibly dumb to bring any of Senator Organa's soldiers along on what is technically an assassination, never mind the complications this would add to the plan. As for double-teaming Palpatine and Anakin in turn, there's no reason to assume that they could even get close to one without losing any chance of ever engaging the other one. You take one out, the other gets somewhere safe. Attacking both of them one on one offered the best chance of bringing down the Empire before it really formed.
- Well, aside from commandeering an ARC fighter and lobbing a few proton torpedoes into Palpatine's office, but Jedi aren't generally fans of what we might call the Mandalorean Method.
- Yes to the above. If Obi-Wan had accompanied Yoda he would have only been in the way. Dooku utterly manhandles Kenobi with the Force and Sidious is even more powerful than him. A bunch of normal guys with blasters wouldn't help either against one of the most powerful Sith Lords in history. As for lobbing missiles in Palpatine's office, he'd probably sense a huge attack like that coming long before they even get there. In the novel, he sensed Mace's team coming well in advance.
- In addition to the above reasons, Alderaaninians are inherently pacifist. Bail has a few private security guards, but that's a far cry from having battle ready troops ready to take on a powerful Force-user. Plus, launching an attack is entirely against their philosophy.
- What use are buzz droids? If you can hit a ship with a missile, why not just hit the ship with a big warhead and destroy it, rather than use a missile that turns into little droids that try to take the ship apart but still give your target a chance to escape alive (as Obi-Wan does)?
- For capture purposes, perhaps. Or to bring down shields on larger ships. Also as distractions while other ships attack you.
- Because you don't have to hit the ship with the missile if you're using a lot of little droids with limited ability to propel themselves, you just have to get the missile into the general vicinity. This is a valuable thing in a war where a notable portion of the opposing forces has supernatural reaction time.
- So, did Anakin / Vader not, at any point during the time jump between Episodes III and IV, say to Palpatine, "Hey, Master, now sure would be a good time to teach me that bringing-people-back-from-the-dead deal like you promised! Sure would like to see my wife and unborn kids again, maybe give her a heartfelt apology!"? And when it became clear that Palpy either couldn't or wouldn't, why would Vader continue to serve him for another however many years until Luke showed up? I don't buy that he was just biding his time: he had no reason to believe that there would ever be anyone with the Force mojo and the motivation to help him make a credible play for power. Trying to lightshiv him directly might have been suicide given how much more powerful the Emperor is, but either that or making a run for it seem preferable to helping the guy consolidate absolute dictatorial power over the next couple decades.
- It wasn't a "bringing people back from the dead deal". It was a "stop them from dying" deal. And you're assuming that Vader's going to be rational, when he's clearly so utterly tortured by his own pain and guilt that he can barely think straight until many years after.
- I believe the exact words were "cheat death," which is certainly open to interpretation, but either way, Palpatine never delivered on his promise, and the whole thing was obviously a huge bait-and-switch in retrospect. Why would Vader keep serving him? I have a hard time believing that he "couldn't think straight" enough to question it for TWENTY YEARS.
- Several quotes. Sidious tells Anakin that Darth Plagueis "had such a knowledge of the dark side that he could even keep the ones he cared about from dying." Kept from dying, not resurrection. Later he says "You will be able to save your wife from certain death"; he says save her from death, not reverse it. Last quote: "I know we can discover the secret to eternal life." This one comes just after the cheating death line, showing he's taking about cheating it by living forever, not resurrecting. Therefore, once Padme was dead, there was nothing Anakin nor Sidious could do to bring her back.
As for why Anakin didn't just kill him in retaliation, the novelization answers this. Anakin does try to kill Sidious during his NOOO! outburst, but then relents because Sidious is the only person left who shows him compassion. Also, he knows it's his own fault Padme died, not Sidious's.
- Plus, and this could just be faulty memory, but I seem to recall an implication that the two would attempt to rediscover this cheating death trick together.
- Yes, the full line is "To cheat death is a power only one has achieved through centuries of the study of the Force. But if we work together, I know we can discover the secret to eternal life."
- Also — I think this was in the audio commentary — it's explained that from the moment Palpatine said that line, that they could discover the secret together, Anakin knew he'd been lying the entire time. From then on he was basically just ping-ponging between biding his time until he could kill Sidious, and not wanting to kill Sidious because he was the closest thing to a friend he had left.
- For what it's worth, the novelization of Return of the Jedi makes clear that Vader is planning to kill/overthrow Sidious, though it leaves his motives vague.
- Anakin mentions to Padme before the big duel with Obi Wan that he plans to overthrow Sidious and rule the galaxy for himself. Even in The Empire Strikes Back, Vader tells Luke that together they can overthrow the Emperor and end this "destructive conflict". It's apparent that the "friendship" of Vader and Sidious is simply for each other's convenience.
- Another reason he doesn't kill Sidious outright-he simply can't. Being turned into a cyborg vastly affects his ability to touch the Force; it takes him a long time to acclimate to the armor and artificial limbs, and he has to change his whole fighting style to focus on his strength, not speed. Where he once was a match for Sidious, a fight after the Mustafar duel would have been suicide for him.
- Also, not only is Sidious far more skilled and powerful than Vader, he's a Chessmaster to boot. Vader's got no hope of tricking or manipulating him, like Sidious did to Plagueis.
Death by childbirth
- Which brings us to the question: Just how many women normally die in childbirth in the Star Wars galaxy? Especially wealthy, politically elite women? After all, their medical science is pretty advanced, and even in the modern day real world mortality rates in childbirth are fairly low. This would suggest that if Padme were going to die, the cause would not be a simple biological one. More likely it would be because of an event that caused her to be injured somehow. If Anakin believed that he could alter destiny by learning some esoteric Force power, would it not be even more logical that he could accomplish the same thing simply by doing a better job of keeping her safe? After all, when his mother was being tortured and dying, he had visions of it. He only learned after the fact that it was because she had actually been abducted by Sand People. The only real problem being that he got there too late to save her, not that she could not have been saved had she been rescued sooner. Of course the joke was on Anakin, since he was really the one who killed Padme via Force Choke, fulfilling his own vision.
- This was effectively Padme's response to Anakin's vision. Namely, his vision is full of shit because women flat don't die during childbirth on planets like Coruscant. Unfortunately, Anakin paradoxically believes You Can't Fight Fate when it comes to his visions even though he is trying to Screw Destiny at the same time.
- Anakin is probably more influenced by the prospect of death in childbirth because he grew up on Tatooine, a place where only the Hutts and their favored servants have reliable access to good medicine; it wouldn't be a surprise if it turned out some of his childhood friends had lost their mothers in such a way. Padmé, meanwhile, comes from a wealthy background on a planet so paradisiacal it makes Risa, the pleasure planet from Star Trek, look like a lousy sports bar in Detroit. It makes sense that something that would remind Anakin of his deeply shitty childhood would make him a bit irrational.
- Supposedly she dies of windpipe damage coupled with severe depression, although one has to wonder about medical science that A) can save a man who loses 30% of his body mass to amputations and then receives third-degree burns over his remaining body, and yet B) has no concept of respiratory repair or 'antidepressants'. Heck, if she's that bad-off, have her frozen in carbonite until they develop a cure for Plot-Mandated Fatality Syndrome.
- Well, they didn't have carbonite freezers (or whatever you call it) and you need to know something is wrong to do something about it. The droid doctors probably didn't have enough programmed information/experience to deal with humans since the mining station does not seem to have a single human that didn't arrive there on Padme's ship. Padme's situation is a bit specific, so it might have been hard to diagnose. This is what happens when you have major medical problems on the aft end of nowhere where humans are few and far between.
- Which begs the further question: do the Jedi get any first aid training at all? Obi-Wan saw Anakin Force-Choke Padme and demanded that he stop, which was when she collapsed! On the entire flight from Mustafar to Polis Massa, and once they were there trying to get care for her, did it not occur to him that her poor condition might have something to do with the fact that the most recent injury she had suffered was nearly being choked to death? This was lampshaded in the Robot Chicken parody:
Dr. Ball: "She's lost the will to live"?! What is your degree in, Poetry? You sorry bunch of Hippies!
- This was brought up in the WMG page. Obi-Wan may not have known basic first aid or that Padme was suffering internal injuries like normal people would, because Obi-Wan's not normal—he's a ridiculously fit Jedi with Psychic Powers, and he was brought up around OTHER people exactly like him, from childhood. The Jedi probably use the Force (intentionally or instinctively) to avoid things like internal injuries or blunt-force trauma, so Obi-Wan might not realize that normal humans are a LOT more breakable without it.
- How does Darth Sidious manage to keep his hoodie up the entire time while dueling Yoda, jumping down a long distance, getting tossed, doing a backflip, and hanging on to a ledge for dear life?
- The Force/Velcro/Safety pins.
- Don't forget, Obi-Wan didn't exactly have time to give her first aid, he was kinda busy getting into a fight with Vader. Afterwards, whatever Force healing skills he had would've been drained, and he may have just decided that the best thing to do was take her to a nearby medical centre.
- Sorry if this has been asked already, but why didn't Obi-Wan Mercy Kill Anakin after cutting off his legs and watching him catch on fire? Wouldn't that have been the compassionate thing to do, instead of screaming "You were my brother! I loved you!" and running away to leave him to die in agony? Are the Jedi against euthanasia? Did Obi-Wan want him to suffer? Or was it that he just could not bring himself to wield the killing blow (though of that's the case, he's kinda a hypocrite.)
- In the novel it was explained, that at that exact moment the Emperor was approaching, and Obi didn't have time to go down the slope and stab Ani. Sure, he could've Force Pushed the bastard into lava or hurled the sword at him, but he also fancies that yes, he cannot bring himself up to killing a defenseless enemy.
- Further, the novel also explains that Obi-Wan, having had his entire Order destroyed by someone he considered his brother, wasn't feeling particularly merciful. Dark though it may be, part of him WANTED Anakin to suffer on the lava bank.
- He considers both of those points, the need to get Padme medical attention, and the chances of Sidious being able to save Anakin and ultimately decides to leave it to the will of The Force.
- Because certainly the Force had just been so benevolent towards the Jedi Order lately...
Palpatine needing Anakin
- Why does Palpatine need Anakin? By the beginning of this film, he already has the power to destroy the Jedi Order and become Emperor. Yet he spends a lot of time and takes huge risks (he could certainly have died when Grievous's ship crashed on Coruscant) in order to turn Anakin to the Dark Side. For what purpose? Anakin leads the attack against the Jedi Temple and slaughters the leaders of the Separatists, but Palpatine could undoubtedly have accomplished these things without him. Even the novelization, which usually makes more sense than the movie, doesn't really explore the matter: it's vaguely suggested that Anakin would publicly denounce the Jedi Order as corrupt, but that certainly doesn't happen and it certainly doesn't change anything. There's also the fact that Palpatine expects Anakin to become more powerful than himself... and thus very likely to murder and replace him. In short, corrupting Anakin simply has more cons than pros. One possible and interesting explanation would be that Palpatine is doing this selflessly, for the good of the Sith: his main goal would not be to rule the galaxy, but to have a successor as powerful as possible. But I don't think such a thing is ever actually suggested.
- He wanted Anakin on his side precisely because he was so powerful; it's probably safer in the long run to bring him to the dark side than let him continue to grow in power and possibly find/kill him. Palpatine wouldn't want to lead the attack anyways; besides being much more of a schemer in the prequels, it'd blow his cover as a Sith Lord. Finally, it's pretty much a Sith tradition to be a backstabbing cockbite; he probably expected him to try to off him at one point. Survival of the fittest s a key Sith trait, and if Palpatine couldn't hold onto his power, he didn't deserve it.
- It is explained in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader a novel that takes place immediately after the events of Revenge of the Sith that Palpatine wants Vader to reach his full potential, even to Palpatine's own peril. Palpatine believes that the limitations on Vader's power are not a result of his injuries but rather because he still has a remnant of Anakin's goodness left in him, because if the Force was a matter of the will and not of the flesh then Vader would be able to reach his potential if he could will himself to forget about his past. Palpatine wants Vader to reach his full potential so that The Dark Side as a whole can become far more powerful than ever before, he believes that with Vader's help true immortality and ultimate power can be achieved, so in the long run he wants Vader and himself to be the final two Sith Lords in history.
- It's also suggested during his duel with Yoda: "[[my new apprentice]] will become more powerful than either of us." On some level, it seems that Palpatine really does hold to the Sith philosophy, and chose Vader not just for any strategic reason but because he's the strongest Force-user in the galaxy and has the potential to be an even stronger Sith Lord than himself.
- Yeah, The Dark Side is the only thing Palpatine cares about more than himself. He wants what's good for the dark side of the Force much more than what's good for himself or the galaxy. But more than anything it's a great deal easier for him to successfully eradicate the Jedi if he has a man on the inside. Anakin would have known what the ideal time and entrance would be for the clone troopers to invade the temple, and he would have made their getting through whatever security measures existed a great deal quicker and easier. Not to mention that he would be intimately familiar with the layout of the Temple. For the invasion to be a successful sneak attack, too quick and extensive for anyone to get away from, the odds are much better if there's a Jedi involved. Finally, as strange as it sounds with all the grief, manipulation, and deception involved, Palpatine does seem to have a certain measure of genuine avuncular affection for Anakin. Note carefully the genuine horror when he says, "I sense Lord Vader is in danger," and the palpable relief when he finds that although he was too late to save Anakin the charbroiled fuck is still alive.
- Also, one of Palpatine's greatest desires is to beat the Jedi. At everything. He preferred to leave many of the surviving Jedi alive to rub his victory in their faces, killing them only when doing so would further his other plans. He left the burned husk of the Jedi Temple alone for quite a while after Order 66 as a way of saying "I won, bitches." So when the Jedi have a Chosen One, he is going to steal that Chosen One. Just because he can. Just because it's one more way of showing he's better than the Jedi.
- Even with all his power, Palpatine knows he's not immortal, and he's aging even before being deformed by his own Force lightning. It's likely that he doesn't want everything he accomplishes to be torn apart after his own death, even if ensuring it's not will entail finding a successor who may bump him off sooner than old age can.
- That doesn't make sense either - he has extensive contingency plans for his death and a network of cloning facilities (which come back to bite the Jedi in the ass in the EU).
- He wants Vader to kill him, but he also wants Vader to really work for it. If Vader is truly a worthy successor, then he'll figure out about the contingency plans (if he doesn't know about them anyway) and deal with them as well.
- Alternatively, Palpatine has a bigger scheme in mind and was willing to let Vader (if he proves himself worthy) Bring Order to the Galaxy while freeing Palpatine to secretly work on more advanced and esoteric Dark Side stuff. Loophole Abuse, then- the Sith survive and the Rule of Two is upheld, but the master manages to cheat death even though his apprentice technically killed him.
- EU material claims that Palpatine had abandoned the Rule of Two and substituted the Rule of One, namely that Palpatine himself would live forever and everyone would serve him. If so, the only reason he wants Anakin is to use him as servant, not to set him up as a replacement. As for why he took such risks to make that happen, he just figured that he could pull it off. As Luke says, "Your overconfidence is your weakness."
- As noted above, Vader can deal with a lot of stuff Palpatine doesn't want to. Someone needs to hunt down all those renegade Jedi and crush any rebels who pop up. Sure, he'd have other servants, but why get rid of a servant who's a) not very likely to kill you (see above thread), b) a very dangerous Jedi hunter, and c) a great commander for the Imperial Military?
- I know this has been debated to death but the way Padme died bothered the ever-loving crap out of me. Broken heart syndrome? Seriously? I know it is a real life ailment but if someone suffered from it that would seem to imply that a person has given up on life because there is no more hope, Padme had hope she had something to live for, Anakin was still alive albeit in the form of Vader and she had healthy children. Padme gave up on life because of a broken heart when there is still a life for her to lead with her new family? LAME. Even theories like Padme's airway was broken when Vader choked her or or a Force bond with her husband causing her to feel Vader's pain as he is being operated on, sound infinitely better than, "I have a broken heart, let me die."
- To this, I have to respond with another question. Why do so many people insist that Padmé died of a broken heart when it is never said so in the movie? Sure, Padmé tells Anakin that he's breaking her heart, but it seemed pretty obvious to me that she meant in figuratively, not literally. Granted, the actually explanation for her death being that she lost the will to live is not very clearly defined, but no character, at any point, ever says that she's dying of a broken heart.
- Because what else would Padme have lost the will to live from? A broken arm? There is a real life syndrome called broken heart syndrome that causes heart attacks, heart pain/weakness, and even manifests as heart disease symptoms, what is striking about this syndrome is that the person is an otherwise healthy person but for some reason their health just declines for apparently no reason. Doctors are still debating if it is a valid syndrome rather than some other health problem they can't track inside the body but it is starting to get into the mainstream, and some doctors will tell you that traumatic emotional events can indeed weaken the heart and that it is basically the person giving up on life and that lack of a will to live apparently can cause health problems. However whatever you call it, "a broken heart" or "lost the will the live", it is stupid that Padme just died so suddenly when there were things for her to hold on to life for, you know like her children. This paints Padme as weak.
- The way I see it, the droid diagnosing it as "lost the will to live" thing isn't 100% truthful. The droid admits that it has no idea why Padmé is dying. And that's because it's an effect of the Force. I don't know if the Force is literally sapping Padmé's will to leave, or just pushed her to the brink of death where only the will to live could save her, or even that it has nothing to do with the will to live at all and the droid is just clutching at straws, but the fact is, one way or another, it's Anakin's use of the Force that's killing her and the droid has no knowledge of the Force and therefore no way of explaining it and so can only describe what's happening from the way it appears to him. It doesn't mean Padmé specifically is weak, I imagine any other non-Force sensitive character would suffer the same fate.
- The droid was full of shit. Padme is strangled and slammed down onto a rock and dies within the hour and they still think it's because she's lost the will to live.
- Well, Padme was unconscious for most of the duel. Then she's forced to go through child labor as she gives birth to two babies! Her body had been through hell. It's a wonder she held on for this long.
- In the novelization, Anakin killed her through their Force-bond, drawing on her life to keep himself alive despite his terrible injuries. He didn't want to, he tried to cut the link, he tried to stop the drain, and he simply could not do it. Despite his best efforts. So now you know exactly why he gave out with a Big "NO!" when Palpatine said that he'd killed her.
- She could have died from internal hemorrhaging (either abdominal or uterine) as a result of childbirth- hence exactly what Anakin foresaw in his visions. In some cases internal bleeding can evade medical detection and can easily be fatal. Perhaps Padme was destined to die in childbirth all along and there was really nothing Anakin could do to stop it.
- Consider this though on the whole "Broken Heart Syndrome." She's already suffered from near-asphyxia from the "Force Choke", which weakens the brain and heart from oxygen starvation. Couple that with Blunt Force Trauma, which could cause Internal Bleeding. Now, her emotional state is shattered because the man she loved has changed, and he just attacked her (Ask any DV victim what this does to you.) The Broken Heart Syndrome weakens the muscle fibers in her heart (Note that this syndrome is more common in women). Now, remember that just after suffering all this, she gives birth. Childbirth is strenuous even on a perfectly healthy heart, many women even in developed nations have died during childbirth due to their heart failing. So imagine what childbirth will do to a damaged and weakened heart. Also, there have been many cases of patients dying too early because they lose the will to live, or they live longer than expected because they still have the will to live. In all honesty, Padme's death may have been just from the Perfect Storm of circumstances.
- "After you have killed all the Jedi in the Temple, go to the Mustafar system. Wipe out Viceroy Gunray and the other Separatist leaders." You know, Anakin should really be thinking "Wait... how come you know where the Separatist leaders are and haven't done anything about it before now? Isn't it interesting how you could have ended the war at any time, but conveniently waited until I had been converted? It's almost like a... conspiracy."
- "Anakin should really be thinking". Indeed, he should. Furthermore, he probably should've started to back at the times of "Aot C". Seriously though, I guess all other concerns in his mind were blotched out by a giant neon sign saying "PADME".
- True, it's in-character for Anakin, but wouldn't a great chessmaster like Palpatine at least wait until after Anakin had killed all the Jedi in the Temple and then pretended they just got intel on the location of the Separatists? It'd still be somewhat fishy, but at least it would be better than "Oh, in addition to being a Sith Lord, I just happen to know where the Separatists are. That's not suspicious at all."
- Anakin has already accepted these circumstances. He has know for years that the mysterious Sith Lord they had been searching for was the ultimate leader of the separatist movement and army and he knew that said Sith Lord had infiltrated the Republic Senate. By kneeling before Palpatine, Anakin is essentially conceding the following: "I know that you are the 'ultimate evil' that I, and my fellow Jedi, have been seeking for the last decade. I realize now that you manipulated the Trade Federation into invading the home world of my beloved Padme as a tactic to get the Republic Senate to elect you Chancellor. I know now that you created the separatist movement and lead the separatist army to war against the Republic only to facilitate your assumption of more power than any Chancellor has ever wielded and ultimately to gain absolute control over the Republic. Your agents have killed my friends - including the man who freed me from slavery. Your agent took my arm. Your agents have attempted to kill my beloved Padme countless times. Your war has killed (at least) millions of Republic citizens. You are, in fact, the personification of everything evil I have fought against since I left Tatooine. But, you say that maybe you can help me save my beloved Padme from some obscure possible death I have dreamed about although for all I know you simply put those images into my head to further manipulate me. By kneeling before you, I accept that although you are purely evil, I will take you at your word regarding saving my wife and I am willing to do whatever you ask to win your help, even if that means slaughtering children, my best friend and mentor, and anyone else you point to."
- Anakin should really have gotten suspicious of Palpatine's motives when he told Anakin to kill Dooku instead of bringing him in for trial, and later when Palpatine told Anakin to leave Obi-Wan to his fate. Trouble is, ever since the death of his mother Anakin had been slipping toward the Dark Side, and none of the Jedi had been perceptive enough to notice (possibly due to Palpatine blocking them).
- Anakin's actions make sense in that they stem from his desperate rationalizations. Note that he never really joins Palpatine — on Mustafar, he basically tells Padmé that he intends to overthrow him. Yet, Palpatine offers Anakin all of the information he needs. He has the power to save Padmé, he is poised to take over the Republic, and he knows where the Separatists are hiding. In joining him, Anakin can not only save his wife, but also bring a swift and decisive end to the war (that has cost so many lives) while forming the Empire (which he clearly believes will be to the benefit of the galaxy). Under the circumstances, he adopts a very "ends justify the means" mentality in that he is willing to sacrifice the Jedi in order to see these goals fulfilled. Anakin's increasing disillusionment with the Jedi also likely made it easier for him to justify his actions to himself. The threat to Padmé's life is what acts as the emotional tipping point, but Anakin also clearly rationalizes that he is doing the right thing for the galaxy in general as well, given his frequent references to ending the war and bringing peace.
- Funny enough, but long before the prequels, the comic Dark Empire gives a pretty good explanation to what Anakin may have been intending, via Luke. Luke rationalizes that he should "pretend" to follow (the clone of) Palpatine in order to get close enough to take him out. He fails to heed Yoda's warning of "once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny." It's only Leia's intervention that snaps the cycle. Unfortunately, Revenge of the Sith doesn't dive too deep in to complex motivations, but if you look at it that way, with it taking over 20 years for someone to properly pull his head out of his backside, it also works for Anakin. He's just helped kill Mace Windu in an act that was meant to completely protect a Sith Lord, he's in a "No going back now" mindset. Put a "I'll pretend to follow him to get what I want, consequences be damned, then take him out and break the cycle" in his brain, which is completely an idea Anakin would have, and it makes a bit more sense.
- The game hints at this — there's an alternative ending, where you play as Anakin during the final duel instead of Obi Wan, and after he wins, Anakin immediately kills Palpatine.
- When Yoda is determining who should fight Palpatine and who should fight Anakin he tells Obi-Wan to fight Anakin because he's not skilled enough to fight Palpatine. This bugs me because it was established in Episode II that Anakin's skill with the lightsaber was already Yoda's equal, and by Episode III he was better.
- The only person who says Anakin is as good as Yoda is Anakin who, as we all known, is an arrogant kid. And the events of Episode II bear out that Yoda is better. Of the two, which is the one who forces Dooku into a retreat, and which is the one who gets his arm lopped off?
- The actual quote is: Obi-Wan: If you spent as much time practicing your saber skills as you do your wit, you'd rival Master Yoda as a swordsman. Anakin: I thought I already did. Obi-Wan: Only in your mind, my very young apprentice.
- Going by the Expanded Universe Anakin by the time of Revenge of the Sith is listed as having tier 9 lightsaber skills, which is the pinnacle of lightsaber ability and a level that Yoda is also at. The lightsaber portion of the duel has potential to end in a draw but Yoda's Force power would spell victory over Anakin in an exchange of the Force. It should also be noted that Obi-Wan is listed as a tier 8 so the only thing that allowed him to survive Anakin's onslaught was his patience in waiting him out using a defensive style and then striking when an opening revealed itself. Had Anakin not provided that opening by trying to jump to Obi-Wan's higher ground then he could have won, it was Anakin's rage that cost him a duel he would have otherwise have won.
- What. Anakin as good as Yoda!!?? Yoda could've polished his youngling's training sabers with Sir Whinybottom's saber skills!
- "I don't like a character" is not the same thing as "The character is unskilled and bad at everything". Anakin is portrayed as a very devoted and proficient warrior... it's one of the major indications that he could go bad, after all, since the Jedi are supposed to see fighting as a last resort. There's also the fact that everyone, including Yoda, remarks on how extremely strong in the Force he is, and in the Star Wars setting using lightsabers is almost as much Force ability as martial training. As to relative power levels... yes, Yoda probably could have beaten Anakin, and probably rather more easily than Obi-Wan did, since he had the edge of experience and maneuverability over Anakin... but considering that Yoda gets his little green ass handed to him by Palpatine, Obi-Wan would probably have been nothing more than a momentary distraction to the new Emperor.
- Palpatine's main forms of attack seemed to be telekinesis and lightnings, not a lightsaber. Yoda seemed a bit surprised about the lightnings, but he probably knew for whatever reason (maybe that's how Sith Lords fight?) that Palpatine would be using these types of attacks, against which Yoda could protect himself better than Obi-Wan. So sending Obi-Wan to fight the guy who was mostly using the same method as he was, even if the guy was somewhat better with it, would make more sense than sending him fight Palpatine, against whose attacks Obi-Wan would have had no chances.
- Okay, so why not both go to kill Anakin (*cough* epic curb-stomp *cough*) And then both go and kill Palpatine? Yoda was on the verge of success after all and Obi 0-Wan's pretty damn powerful himself, so why not?
- They probably thought that time was of the essence. They *just* found out about Anakin's betrayal, so they decided to confront Palpatine and Anakin as soon as possible so things didn't get any worse than they already were. The two were the biggest threats and the reason why everything wrong had happened, after all.
- They were right about that, too. Palpatine had just instituted his order and ascended to power. Every day, every hour he is left to his own devices is more dead Jedi and his hold on power becomes consolidated. After the prequels Palpatine went into such seclusion that it's not until Return of the Jedi that the Rebellion thinks they even have a vague shot at assassinating him. He likely would have done something similar quite soon after taking power anyway specifically to avoid any surviving Jedi taking a shot at him and getting lucky. Yoda basically had that one chance to stop Palpatine, and even then the Jedi Order and possibly the Republic itself would have been crippled or dead for decades.
- Which is what makes the splitting up strategy even more nonsensical. However powerful Anakin might have been in the Force, he lacked the political and military connections necessary to seize control of the Republic/Empire in the event of Palpatine's death. The Senate was highly unlikely to declare him Chancellor or Emperor! His belief that he could do so was just delusions of grandeur caused by being Drunk on the Dark Side. Plus, he was on a remote planet at the time. It would have made far more sense for Yoda and Obi-Wan to double-team Palpatine, since all three of them were already on Coruscant anyway, rather than for Yoda to send Obi-Wan off to fight a battle he was emotionally conflicted about fighting. Together they could have taken Palpatine down, and then turned their attention to dealing with Anakin with Bail Organa and the other Republican senators providing air cover to keep the military off their backs while they did so.
- From what we've seen in Phantom Menace, Clones, and Revenge, a Sith is easily capable of fighting and winning against multiple Jedi, perhaps even better than a Jedi would. Palpatine trained Dooku and Maul. He's more than capable of holding off Yoda and Obi-Wan.
- So that makes Yoda tackling Palpatine solo more logical in what way? In the actual fight, Yoda and Palpatine were pretty evenly-matched. Yoda was centuries older and more experienced after all, which balanced Palpatine's Dark Side edge. If Obi-Wan had been there to tip the scales, it would have been a clear win. For example, while Palpatine was pouring everything he had into firing Force Lightning at Yoda, who was similarly matching him with his ability to block it, Obi-Wan could have simply leaped in and beheaded Palpatine with his lightsaber and it would have all been over right then and there!
- Why assume that the rest of the fight would've gone the same way? Palpatine probably would've instead targeted Obi Wan first, knowing that with his own power advantage, he'd force Yoda into protecting Obi Wan instead of engaging him. Yoda going in alone means Yoda only has himself to worry about.
- Jedi pairs performing poorly against Sith have historically been the result of one of two issues: surprise, or poor teamwork. Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were both fighting the first Sith that the Jedi Order had encountered in a long time. Plus Obi-Wan was at the time almost as hot-headed as Anakin would later be. Which was the issue in both fights with Dooku. Anakin does not fight well in partnership, he grandstands too much. Mace Windu and the other three Masters were simply taken by surprise at how powerful and aggressive Palpatine's fighting style was. He only needed to leave Windu alive long enough for Anakin to arrive and "rescue" him. But, Yoda is much more level-headed, and Obi-Wan is much more deferential to Yoda. Palpatine almost certainly would try to attack Obi-Wan first. But remember that at the time Yoda was a staunch advocate of Jedi not letting their emotions get in the way of their duties. It is doubtful that given just how dire the situation was that he would have allowed sentiment to cloud his judgment. Palpatine was now the actual ruler of the Galaxy if they failed, a much more dire concern than allowing Count Dooku to escape (in the previous film). He would have expected Obi-Wan to handle his own defense (which he proved he could do very well against General Grievous), while Yoda himself brought his full power to bear against Palpatine. Palpatine only won against Yoda because he managed to get a better handhold when their opposing power sent them both hurtling backward, whereas Yoda lost his grip and fell to the Senate floor. That was a really narrow victory, and even a slight shift in the odds would have seen Palpatine lose.
- First, just because things LOOKED close doesn't mean they were close. After all, there's a reason Yoda retreated instead of resuming his battle after falling off. If you've read the novelization, you know that Yoda was actually barely keeping up with Palpatine (who wasn't really trying until the very end of the fight). Yoda realized that he was simply overpowered and needed to retreat while he still could. Second, Obi-Wan would be useless against Palpatine. Obi-Wan, while a highly skilled warrior, almost exclusively uses a defensive style of combat (Form III, I think?), meaning he would be useless in what amounts to an assassination mission. Against a skilled Sith, Obi-Wan's battle strategies essentially amounted to catch him off guard with speed or survive the battle long enough to tire out the opponent and wait until they make an error. Against normal Sith, this strategy might eventually work, but a) relying on PALPATINE making a mistake is a serious gamble, and b) Palpatine's mastery of the Force makes it likely he would just incapacitate Kenobi that way (just like Dooku in their rematch). And third, having two highly skilled Jedi against one highly skilled Sith doesn't really mean much, as we've seen throughout the series. True, chemistry issues were what caused most f the other team ups to fail, but we saw that Anakin (who, like him or hate him, was at the highest level of lightsaber combat proficiency)and Obi-Wan, two warriors who had been fighting alongside one another for years, were not able to effectively challenge Count Dooku, who is far weaker than Palpatine. There seems to be a law of diminishing returns in lightsaber duels - two on one often seems to be a hindrance more than an aid.
- Furthermore, Palpatine sensed Vader being in danger on Coruscant-if Yoda and Obi-Wan had teamed up against Vader, Palpatine might've sensed the danger earlier, come to help his apprentice, and then it'd either be two against two, or a tired Obi-Wan and Yoda against a fresh Palpatine. Yoda's going in against Palpatine may well have been a Xanatos Gambit-if he wins, great, but if not, at least Obi-Wan has the time to engage and beat Vader.
Mask and wounds
- Darth Vader is being treated by the medical droids, and his transformation into the masked, be-armored Dark Lord is almost complete. His mask is put onto his face, still covered with open wounds. Shouldn't they let it heal first, or at least clean it or somehow bandage it up before attaching the helmet?
- He's being treated by droids under the supervision of a Sith Lord. Making it as unpleasant as possible may be by design.
- Darth Sidious did that on purpose, he felt that if he made the surgical process of getting Vader into that suit as painful as possible then Vader could draw on that as a means to strengthen his connection to the Dark Side. For goodness' sake Vader didn't even have anesthesia during the surgery so he felt everything that the surgical droids did to his body, I doubt having the armor applied to his skin while it wasn't fully healed mattered much to Vader's master.
- Exactly. Remember how he screamed when the droid simply removed part of his clothing from his burnt skin? Imagine that, except they have to cut into him in order to fix his lungs, etc. For seven long days (check Wookipedia, Darth Vader's Armor). Vader would be awake for the entire procedure.
- If you thought the bridge on the Executor was bad, how about the bridge on General Grievous' ship, the Invisible Hand? Executor's bridge may have been exposed, but at least it was exposed on one side only. The Hand's bridge was exposed on all sides, almost all of which were windows, and it was sticking out like a sore thumb-while laser blasts were blowing holes all over the ship. Why weren't the clones aiming for it, anyway?
- Shields. The end.
- Not that hard to get past Star Wars shields.
- For all they know the Chancellor might be held on the bridge, which would be one hell of an incentive to not fire on it. Hell, even if he isn't, taking it out will cause the ship to collapse into Coruscant's atmosphere and cause all kinds of woes. They had to at least ensure his safety first before trying that option.
Yoda's logic on death
- So, according to Yoda, I'm supposed to be happy and cheerful in the event a loved one died? I'm suppose to just forget about them? If I told this to someone who was genuinely afraid of a loved one dying, I'd deserve every last beating they give me.
- People who die become one with the force and their bodies return to nature. Yoda wasn't saying to enjoy death, but not to see it as the end of the world either- simply as a natural and at times unavoidable part of nature, to be accepted and come to terms with.
- You don't exist in a setting where you can actively converse with your loved ones if you're Force-sensitive, bro.
- I also think the implication of Yoda's statement is that while the Jedi may strive to save lives, they don't believe in unnaturally extending life with the power of the Force. ——
- The idea that you shouldn't mourn death is actually something common in Buddhism. Monks specifically urge families to not be sad so they don't interfere with the soul moving on. Yoda probably was trying to remind Anakin that death is part of being alive. Of course he did it in a rather stupid fashion that makes one wonder just how 'wise' he really is, but that's another matter.
- Jedi aren't supposed to not care about death, they're just supposed to accept it. Jedi are clearly shown mourning the dead any number of times... no one insists on just flushing Qui-Gon's body down a garbage chute without any further ceremony, after all. If you're feeling uncharitable towards the Jedi, you could look on it as hypocrisy, I suppose. If you're feeling more charitable, it's just that while Jedi are allowed to feel sad, they can't linger or dwell on the emotion. After all, out of the five stages of grief, only the last, acceptance, isn't something that's going to be a temptation to the Dark Side. That's pretty much why the Jedi are discouraged from having any more personal attachments than necessary. Your master dies? You're sad and maybe angry for awhile, but you can accept that. Same if your Padawan dies. But if you keep your connections to your mother, your father, you marry, you have kids, it's just more and more chances that one of those deaths could be the one you just can't accept and pushes you over the edge.
- The Fridge page has a nice explanation: Yoda and the other Jedi are so insular in their culture that they can't meaningfully interact with anyone who doesn't share their value system.
- It's actually really good advice, even from a real-world standpoint. Death is inevitable, so accepting it instead of rallying against it is a healthier response. Obviously, you want to stay alive when there's a good chance for it, but when your time is up, there's no reason to linger. When a loved one dies, accepting that and remembering them fondly is healthier than lamenting their absence and being angry at whatever took them. Fearing death when it is inevitable just gives it power over you, and in Anakin's case that fear is exactly what Palpatine preys on, and leads directly to what he was trying to prevent. Yoda certainly could have phrased it better, but if Anakin had taken his advice, Darth Vader never would have existed.
- "Could have phrased it better" is kind of an understatement. It's not entirely Yoda's fault as Anakin isn't telling him everything, but what Anakin (who forms deep emotional connections with people) is hearing is "If they die, they die, who cares?" The problem is Yoda seems unable to grasp that Anakin might need more than generalities and Zen. The failing is not that it's terrible advice necessarily, but that Anakin is simply not in a place where he can process it that way and Yoda had absolutely no idea this is the case. Should Anakin have gotten so hung up on Padme dying that he turned to the Dark Side? Of course not. But even psychologically healthy people can't always be expected to leap straight from deep fear and anxiety to existentialist acceptance without some steps in between, and the Jedi don't seem to have any way to deal when someone can't.
- In a way it all goes back to the Jedi Council's original opinion of Anakin: he was too old to receive training as a Jedi. It's important to remember that the vast majority of Jedi are taught Jedi philosophy from a very young age, so they understand the need to accept death already. Anakin has had plenty of time to form attachments and to understand the non-Jedi method of dealing with hardship and loss, so the Jedi way of thinking is a foreign concept to him. Now, you could argue that they had plenty of time to make sure he understood this and came to terms with it, but you have to consider that: A) Anakin is a special case, possibly even the very first person to become a Jedi since the Jedi Order was founded that hasn't been raised on these ideals from birth, so they likely didn't consider the possibility that he would have a hard time grasping the concept; and B) that the Republic was going into a war at the time, and the Jedi Council needed to prioritize Anakin's ability to function and survive if he ever got involved in combat over his understanding of philosophy.
- Going even further than that, the Jedi Council didn't give a very good explanation to him to begin with. It's okay to love family and friends and to feel a more intimate/romantic love for others, and it's even okay to get attached and to mourn for those you've lost. It's not the act of loving someone or growing attached to them that's the problem - it's not being able to let go. Rather than telling him that he shouldn't get attached or that he should just accept death, their lesson should have been more along the lines of "Feeling these things is okay, but you're a Jedi now. You need to be able to put your duty as a Jedi to work for the benefit of the universe above your personal wants."
Hiding Luke on Tatooine
- "To protect you both from the Emperor, you were hidden from your father when you were born." I kind of understand Leia being hidden, but they didn't go to too much trouble with Luke really, did they? He's living on his fathers home planet, with his family, in their old homestead. His surname hasn't even been changed!
- Well, would you think to look there?
- More seriously, its been stated that Vader is incapable of going to Tatooine in person now (it brings his heart rate up too much for the suit to be able to handle), and he's the only one who'd really like to FIND the kid(s), if they're still alive. The Emperor may have, and probably did, know from Stormtrooper investigations, but kept it from Vader to keep Vader's angst/despair/hopelessness levels, and thus controllability, at maximum.
- Owen is Anakin's stepbrother whom he met once, lives on a planet Anakin couldn't wait to get off of, in a place Anakin never lived. If the Emperor even thought of looking up people who might be guarding Anakin's children, Owen might not even be on the list. I doubt Vader ever wanted to even think about the time he met Owen, considering what else happened during that trip.
- You know what else bothers me about this scene? It's Yoda who suggests hiding Luke on Tatooine, with his family. Except that, one of the commonly cited reasons for Jedi falling to the Dark Side (whether this is fair or not) is dependence on family. Specifically, Anakin's attachment to his mother and later his wife was crucial to his Start of Darkness. This is why the Jedi have traditionally taken children shortly after birth for training. Yoda clearly believes this, because he made such a fuss about Anakin being too old and attached to his mother. Why then is he all of a sudden suggesting sending Luke into that essentially the exact same environment that Anakin came from if he believes that was the root cause of him turning evil. If Luke really is their last hope for the galaxy, wouldn't the sensible thing to do, according to traditional Jedi beliefs, be to take him to Dagobah and raise him in the Jedi tradition? Once could argue that Yoda's done a 180 on this because he recognized that it was the rigid Jedi code, and not being too old or attached, that caused Anakin's fall, but then in The Empire Strikes Back he says that Luke is too old for Jedi training. What makes this even more ridiculous is that the reason that Luke couldn't start training earlier is because of Yoda's very own idea to send him to Tatooine in the first place!
- You had it exactly right, it was the rigid, inflexible, stultifying rules of the Jedi that drove Anakin to the Dark Side, not necessarily his attachments. More than that, the novelization explains that Yoda realizes, during his duel with Sidious, that the Old Jedi just don't have what it takes to defeat the New Sith. A New kind of Jedi would be needed. Also in the novel, Obi-Wan suggests taking Luke with him, training him from birth as Anakin should have been trained, and Yoda shoots down that idea, because all that would result is another dogmatic Old Jedi who Vader and Palpatine would wipe the floor with. In letting Luke grow up (mostly) normally, letting him experience feelings of love and loss, and when he's ready letting the Force bring him to them, they create the only Jedi who could have defeated Vader. Because Luke has feelings for his father, Luke believes he can be saved, and he's absolutely right. A Jedi who only saw Darth Vader as an opponent to be defeated never could have beaten him. Luke, seeing him as a father he wants to love and redeem, utterly destroys him. As for Yoda insisting Luke was too old for training. . . that was likely a friendly jab at Obi-Wan. Yoda does have a slightly warped sense of humor.
Sidious' second lightsaber
- Where does Sidious get the lightsaber he uses against Yoda from? Mace Windu kicked it out a high-story window onto the streets of Coruscant. Did somebody find it and intuit that it was Palpatine's?
- Probably had a spare. Palpatine has been a Sith for decades, he had ample opportunity to create more than one while he served under Darth Plaqueis. Those buildings are miles high, it is highly improbable that the lightsaber would even survive a fall of that height or even if it did that a search effort would be made for it.
- Per the novelization, he did indeed have a spare.
- Which just raises more questions as, apparently, Palpatine hid the first one in a sculpture that was made around the lightsaber. Said sculpture was made from special metal to hide the saber from scans and was heavy enough that his office floor had to be reinforced to hold it. If he went through all that to hide one, where/why would he have another?
- He went through all that to hide one in his office. He probably wouldn't have needed to go to such extents in other places. "Hey, Bob, run home to my personal armory and get my spare Sithsaber out of the safe, would you? Thanks."
- The Clone Wars establishes that Sidious had a penchant for Dual Wielding just in case.
Duel on Mustafar
- There's one thing that I don't understand about duel between Anakin and Obi-Wan on Mustafar. I get that they're fighting on equal terms because Obi-Wan uses the defensive style AND he knows the style of Anakin very well, having trained with him for past 10 years. What I don't get is the part they use force against each other. Anakin had "exceptional skills" before he was full fledged Jedi. since then, his skills doubled, he mastered Count Dooku, became "a far greater Jedi than [Obi-Wan]could ever hope to be. He was the chosen one, the potentially greatest force user ever, one of the best there was, even if still inexperienced. So, it would be most logical to assume that, even if he doesn't have the years of experience like Obi-Wan, he's connection to force and therefore it's use is greater. So, during the duel, they're trying to Force push each other: a very Powerful Jedi and the more Powerful Sith, who now became even stronger due to the Dark Side, who's very angry, boosting the Dark Side powers even more and what happens? The struggle ends on equal terms, they both push each other with the same amount of force. How does that happen? Does that mean that Obi-Wan was a far greater Force User before Anakin's turn? Everything implies that he has long surpassed his master, but if he couldn't best him even with his Dark Powers, he would be much weaker than him while he was still on the light side, wouldn't he? And experience doesn't play a role here - It's a basic power - use the Force to push someone. Nothing that needs being wise or something.
- He's also extremely emotionally conflicted and unbalanced at that point. One might imagine that putting a damper on his Force power (since both Jedi and dark side users require some sort of concentration to pull off their effects).
- Theoretical answer that could work in tune with the above answer: Obi-Wan is using the Dark Side. He is really pissed at Anakin and he's letting that feed his Force usage. It would actually jive with things we see in The Phantom Menace and his eventual decision to live passively in exile. In The Phantom Menace, Darth Maul is very obviously the much superior duelist, besting Qui-Gon through purely martial skill and having previously held off Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon simultaneously. It's not until Obi-Wan sees his master killed and rushes Maul to attack furiously that he's anything like a match for him, and you can see the anger on his face towards the end of the duel when he pulls off some Force tricks. After his fight with Anakin Obi-Wan probably reflected on his life and realized just how close he'd come to falling, himself, and realized that if he continued to throw himself into battle he'd probably be lost to the Dark Side too. So he goes into exile, trains Luke, and ultimately rather than putting his all into a fight against Vader and the Stormtroopers, he surrenders peacefully to death once his fighting has served its purpose.
- Occam's Razor answer: we've never seen a pair of Force pushes come into opposition before (at least not in the movies). The duelists are in very close contact. It could well be that any Force Pushes will cancel each other out, until "eventually the air-pocket compressed by the combined Force pushes ruptured and exploded" (from Wookiepedia). Until that point, it's like holding North-North ends of magnets together- the relative force exerted by the magnet/Force user doesn't matter, just that the act of putting them into conflict cancels each other out.
- The Dark Side isn't more powerful. Anyone who tells you so is deluded.note The whole point of the fight is that Anakin and Obi-Wan are completely equally matched, even to the point where their Force powers cancel each other out. Obi-Wan's strength comes from his clarity and centeredness as a Jedi, Anakin's comes from his rage and hate as a Sith, but both powers are perfectly equal.
Windu and Anakin
- Why did Windu decide to hold the Idiot Ball/Jerkass Ball so tightly in this one? In AotC, he's the one who defends Anakin from Obi-Wan's concerns. And that was when he acted as an arrogant, wangsty teenager. In RotS, Anakin became much stringer, more levelheaded, respectful to his master, acts much less arrogant and clearly matured. And now Mace Windu decides to antagonize him, don't trust him and question him being the one. Had he not acted like such a Jerk, Anakin wouldn't stop trusting the Jedi. So, Basically, What the Hell, Hero?, Windu?
- Yoda does give Windu a brief What the Hell, Hero? reaction when the latter starts talking about handpicking a new, more Jedi-friendly senate after they've taken down Palpatine. There's an implication that the strain of the war was getting to Mace and making him a little edgier and quicker to react with anger, which would explain why he was more patient with Anakin in the second movie, when the Clone Wars were only starting.
- You forgot that Windu is the one who ultimately pushes Anakin over the edge into falling. Anakin is pleading with Windu to do the right thing by Jedi philosophy, even if for the wrong reasons, but Windu insists he's going to kill Palpatine right then and there, Jedi principles be damned. I guess we were getting a Sith out of that scene one way or the other.
- It's canonical that Mace Windu's style of using the Force in combat would have eventually driven him to the Dark Side, and I imagine he was using it a lot during that whole civil war.
- In Windu's defense, he actually had a fair point. Sidious had just killed several skilled and powerful Jedi without breaking a sweat. Be kinda hard for a Republic prison cell to hold him for long. Not to mention the man's more mundane, but equally dangerous sliver tongue had already managed to make him one of the most politically powerful people in the galaxy. In fact, about the only thing that Windu did wrong in his confrontation with Sidious was not take along an active recording device. Then he could have just let the Sith Lord jabber on to all the people of the Republic.
- And in the novelization, this is exactly what Palpatine does!
Sidious and his Force Lightning
- When Sidious got hit by his own force lightning, why wasn't he seriously injured or killed?
- Force lightning doesn't kill or inflict permanent injuries immediately- it mostly causes extreme pain and kills slowly, and Sidious didn't keep it up long enough to be lethal. Besides, it's his lightning- it's entirely possible that he is more resistant to his own power than someone else would be, though that's just WMG. He gets a facefull of his own lightning again in RotJ and it doesn't kill him or do any visible damage, after all.
- If you mean the arrest scene, then I'm pretty sure the lighting horribly disfigured him and almost killed if Anakin didn't intervene.
- He was disfigured, yes, but I don't think it was anywhere close to lethal- he was playing weak so he could blast Windu when he wasn't paying attention, and Anakin gave him the opening. The power he brings to bear then, and the way he comports himself in the subsequent scene, suggest he's largely fine, apart from the disfigurements.
- It's also possible the disfigurements were already there, a sign of his Dark Side corruption, and the kindly old man guise was simply an illusion he was creating with the Dark Side. The lightning just wound up peeling it away, and then he thought "Hey, I can use this...!"
- After Obi-Wan was knocked unconscious by Dooku on the Invisible Hand, Dooku caused a balcony to collapse on his legs. Shouldn't that have crushed Obi-Wan's legs? Or was the balcony made of very light material?
- Given the lack of bodily damage to Obi-Wan, it seems more likely that Dooku simply moved the balcony to pin his legs, holding him in place so that if he woke up, he would have to free himself before he could rejoin the fight.
- Yeah, I'd file that one under Special Effects Failure. It certainly looks like Obi-Wan should have been seriously injured, if not completely losing his legs, from that. But he's up and walking fine ten minutes later without even a twinging ankle.
- In the novelization, Dooku does hope the balcony broke a few of Obi-Wan's bones, but he's too engaged in fighting Anakin to do the job properly.
- Given the lack of bodily damage to Obi-Wan, it seems more likely that Dooku simply moved the balcony to pin his legs, holding him in place so that if he woke up, he would have to free himself before he could rejoin the fight.
Jedi and Anakin's marriage
- Do any Jedi know that Anakin is married? Yoda doesn't seem to know about it when Anakin consults him alone, even though Anakin is very obviously worried sick about Padmé and his children. There is the war, but Anakin is also bad at hiding his emotions from other Jedi: notably, they could always tell when he was thinking of his mother.
- Technically none of the Jedi know. Obi-Wan suspects a relationship, but pretends he has no clue. He does not suspect just how far things have gone, though.
- In the novel, when Anakin consults Yoda, and Yoda probingly asks if these premonitions are about someone close to Anakin, Anakin let's Yoda believe he's talking about Obi-Wan. Yoda was wise enough to know that Anakin's deep-seated fears were related to someone else, but the Jedi as a whole were blind enough by this point that no one (except Obi-Wan, through normal deductive reasoning), suspected that Anakin and Padme had any kind of serious relationship. If you believe Word of God, that Jedi are forbidden from attachments but allowed to have casual sex, they may have suspected that Anakin was sneaking away to "lightsaber duel" with Padme whenever he got the chance, but not that they were emotionally involved. This highlights a great failing of the old Jedi Order: they were completely reliant on the Force. As the "shroud of the Dark Side" began to cloud their ability to use it for everything, they had no normal skills to fall back on, which left them firmly clutching the Idiot Ball.
- There's also the fact that Anakin isn't very close to most Jedi. Even if you count the EU, the majority of the Jedi he was close to are either dead or have left the Order by now. Obi-Wan is probably the only one in the Order who knows Anakin well enough to realize what's happening, anyway.
- In the novel, Obi-Wan knows that there's something going on between Anakin and Padmé, but he doesn't know how deep it goes because he chooses not to pry.
- In Attack of the Clones, Obi-Wan uses his lightsaber to block Dooku's force lightning, and the lightsaber just absorbs the lightning. In Revenge of the Sith, Mace Windu does the same to Palpatine's lightning, and the lightning is turned against Palpatine. Why?
- Might be a combination of factors. Mace was right in Palpatine's face while Dooku was a fair ways back from Obi Wan. Mace is supposedly more powerful than Obi Wan. Obi Wan didn't roll high enough on that one particular Use the Force check (Star Wars: Saga Edition joke, to reflect a power, you need to beat the check by a certain amount). Obi Wan might not have wanted to as Obi Wan's combat style is supposedly much less aggressive than Mace Windu's style. Dooku was Obi Wan's master's master so he might have hoped to talk him down which is hard to do when you just zapped him in the face with Force Lightning while Palpatine was pretty much evil incarnate so Mace spared him no such mercy.
- It is a matter of style—Obi Wan's fighting style is primarily defensive, so naturally when he stops Force Lightning, he's just going to stop it. Mace's style, however, is aggressive, and in part, as I understand it, edges toward the Dark Side in that he fights better because he lets himself enjoy the fight—ergo, even when he is defending, he's doing so aggressively.
- There's also the chance that Palpatine may have intentionally made it disfigure him for more sympathy points.
- It's more than "a chance", that's what actually happened. Watch it again: when Mace was attacking Palpatine, he was begging Anakin for his help, pretending to be a frail old man about to be executed by a Jedi (and, as a bonus, the alleged knowledge for saving Padme would be lost if he died). As soon as Anakin crossed the Moral Event Horizon, Red Eyes, Take Warning: Palpatine showed his real power level and swiftly executed Mace Windu. He also took advantage of his scars later when he convinced the Senate to make him a dictator.
- Palpatine is presumably also a lot more powerful than Dooku, and was capable of putting out a lot more energy than a lightsaber could simply absorb.
- The novelization advances the theory that Mace Windu's lightsaber form (Vapaad) treds so close to the Dark Side that it actually draws on it, feeding the user's strength from their enemy's. When Mace Windu blocked Palpatine's Sith Lightning use Vapaad, a "circuit" in the Dark Side was completed, and the energy just cycled between them. Mace Windu is Jedi enough to let the Dark Side pass through him without touching him; Palpatine is not.
- Palpatine also keeps the stream up for far longer than Dooku.
- During the attempt to treat Padme, the droid says "we have to operate quickly to save the babies." (In the novelization, anyway.) It sounds like they plan to do a c-section or something. Then we see Padme go into what looks like ordinary labor. Huh? She's dying, and they make her have two babies?
- They probably gave her something to induce labor sooner. Waiting for her to start naturally was risky, given she was rapidly fading.
- Why does Palpatine not give Anakin any anesthetic when turning him into Vader? I know he'd get a kick out of it, but practically this isn't exactly a good idea: considering merely peeling off cloth is completely agonizing, doing such extensive surgery could cause Vader to die from shock due to overwhelming pain. Even if it doesn't kill him, there's a good chance Vader will end up completely insane and not very useful. Palpatine may be an utter psychopath, but he should know not to do so if it gambles away his second-in-command.
- If Vader goes insane and has to be put down like a dog then Palpatine will simply get a new second in command. He'd probably got a new proto-apprentice stuffed away somewhere for just that eventuality. He can get a new apprentice and there are plenty of loyal officers he can use meantime. It makes you wonder if Tarkin had a spark of Force Ability in him, his behavior in Episode 4 would certainly fit with someone that Palpatine was grooming as a new Darth. However, Palpatine always has a back up plan.
- Palpatine believed that all that agony Anakin/Vader endured to be put in that suit would make him very strong in the Dark Side. Besides, the guy's a dick, and he'll watch someone suffer for the lulz even if in all practical sense, it is wholly illogical. Besides, as the poster above me said, Palpatine never is without a backup in case Plan A went sour.
- And the pain thing is effectively confirmed in The Force Awakens, where we see Ren aggravating his wound in order to draw on the dark side.
Telling Anakin about killing his master
- Palpatine tells Anakin the story of his former master. He tells him the apprentice killed his master in his sleep. Here's the headscratcher.....why would he give Anakin ideas? Was Palpatine suicidal? Why even tell him that story?
- Sith tradition. Gives the student incentive to try hard, and a master that falls for it didn't deserve to hold power anyway.
- A previous entry on this very page also mentions that Palpatine, having offed Plagueis this way, knows better than to sleep. The Revenge of the Sith novelization mentions that Anakin is using the Force to keep himself going without sleep to escape his nightmares, presumably Palpatine uses the Force the same way to never give Anakin the opportunity to catch him off-guard. As for why he told Anakin the story, the entire point was to entice Anakin towards the Dark Side by suggesting that only a Sith had the power to save Padme. Why not use the story of your own master to do so? If the question was why he told Anakin how Plagueis was killed, both the previous reply and the point about him learning from how he killed Plagueis suggests he didn't see any harm in it, and might even have considered it beneficial.
- A lesson of the Plagueis story isn't just "the Sith can cheat death", it's "don't teach your apprentice absolutely everything". Palpatine knows that he just has to keep Anakin hungry for more secrets and his apprentice will stay his hand.
- Why were the Jedi so quick to take Sidious's bait? As shown in the novelization, they had pretty much no hard evidence against Palpatine (other than the word of the emotionally unstable Skywalker) for being a Sith Lord at all; in fact, just being a Sith Lord is not a crime, because of the Constitution. Why weren't the Jedi more cautious and patient in gathering evidence? In the novel that takes place right before ROTS Labyrinth of Evil (LOE), they had managed to track Darth Sidious to the Li Merge Power building in the works and then to the basement of 500 Republica, so they had evidence he was one of the elite. The only problem was that the investigation was kinda cut short by the Battle of Coruscant, but the Jedi did leave one techie down there to continue the investigation into Darth Sidious's identity in the basement of 500 Republica. (As you know, that techie would actually encounter Darth Sidious and see his true identity, just before he died.) Why didn't the Jedi ever ask, What Happened to the Mouse, and try to pick up from where they left off? As for removing Palpatine from office, which they were planning to do anyway after the death of Grievous, even before the Jedi knew he was a Sith Lord, why did they have to confront the Chancellor personally? Couldn't they have played some PR of their own, instead of playing right into a Sith Lord's PR Campaign, saying that because Dooku and Grievous are dead and the war is winding down Palpatine doesn't need all those emergency powers anymore and plus he's served way past his term limit, putting pressure on the Senate to take back their authority and perhaps finally give Palpatine his dismissal and elect an Interim Chancellor to prosecute the end of the war, citing the interests of democracy and republicanism? I guess, though, PR campaigns are not the Jedi's strong suit.
- Do not assume that any EU work has any particular impact on the movie canon, since before Star Wars was sold to Disney, GL repeatedly said he considered the EU a parallel universe, and Disney flat out stated that they weren't necessarily bound by the EU. Second, while being a Sith Lord wasn't against the constitution, being someone who orchestrates a massive civil war that kills billions probably is, and they generally connected "Sith Lord" with "guy who does that sort of stuff".
- Those are two independent problems that got mixed in a single man, but each problem has its own context. One thing is a Senator with dictatorial powers, Sith or no Sith that is a problem, and they were dealing with it... having the law and procedure in mind, which takes its time. A Sith Lord revealed is another problem in itself. It does not matter if legally it is a crime or not, it is a threat, a Jedi business, and must be dealt with immediately. And they knew that there was a Sith Lord around since Episode I, now they have a name and address. If Osama Bin Laden was out shopping, would you wait to capture him once he has done the shopping?
- The novelization says that Mace knew Anakin was telling the truth through the Force. Seeing the "shatterpoints" of the universe, he saw that Anakin had become a shatterpoint to everything in existence in that moment, so he knew that whatever Anakin told him must be a massive revelation indeed.
- In addition, Palpatine knows that Anakin is going to tell the Jedi, and he just took direct political control of the Order earlier in the film. For the Jedi, a Sith Lord with political control of the Order and an entire army at his disposal is incredible Nightmare Fuel. They need to move fast, or else he'll move on them.
- When the Emperor gave his Declaration of a New Order, what was that symbol he wore on his front, of which there were 3 arranged vertically?
- According to Wookiepedia, they're Sith symbols.
Duel in front of windows
- Most of the fight between Sidious and Mace Windu takes place near windows, with visible traffic moving along without a care in the world. Especially after the window is broken you've got the purple lightsaber and the lightning which must surely be visible to passersby, yet they just keep on moving: No one stops to rubberneck. Then we see the Jedi Master get electrocuted and defenestrated with a good bit of horizontal movement toward the traffic lanes, yet traffic just keeps moving along, nothing to see here. Nobody seems to do anything about the witnesses, not even Sidious himself. Why didn't anybody rubberneck and even though I'm sure the location of the Chancellor's suite in the building is top secret (though people knew what building he was in) why didn't any of those passersby put two and two together with what they witnessed and Palpatine's Declaration of a New Order?
- "Oh, that fight is Jedi business. Move Along, Nothing to See Here. Windu is a Jedi master, he will be all right."
- ...You do realize that the traffic was moving about 20 times faster than it would be on earth, not to mention they weren't that close to window (they were probably a mile away), so really, any drivers would be moving too fast to notice anything going on in the Chancellor's office other than (possibly) a couple of really bright lights.
- No vehicles would be allowed near the Supreme Chancellor's tower for simple security if nothing else. Certainly not close enough to make out any details.
- You're an average Joe driving along at night. You see some bright lights coming from the Chancellor's office? What do you do? You drive right past. And if you do try to say anything, a couple stormtroopers will drop by your house and ask you very nicely to shut up. If you're lucky.
- How strong was Palpatine? Did Palpatine let Mace Windu beat him? Was he acting, or was he really beaten? Some people say Palpatine could have killed Mace easily, but he needed Windu alive for Anakin to turn to the dark side.
- You've answered your own question. Palpatine wanted to look weak and helpless so Anakin could be fooled into thinking the Jedi were attempting an illegal coup. Once Mace was disarmed (literally), Palpatine suddenly springs back into full action and bombards Mace with a strong surge of lightening. Plus, Word of God states that only Anakin, in his full potential, would've been strong enough to overthrow Palpatine.
- Anakin would have been less likely to fall to the Dark Side if he arrived in Palpatine's office to find Palpatine winning, or even just holding his own, against Windu. He needed to look like he was in mortal peril to get Anakin to act against Windu. Remember that Palpatine telepathically called Anakin to his office while the latter was impatiently waiting in the Council Chamber to learn the result of Windu's bust. Palpatine was likewise timing the fight to coincide with Anakin's arrival at his office.
- YMMV, HUGELY. A large section of the fanbase believe Windu's use of techniques including Vapaad (a dueling form which allows him to relish in the fight and feed off of his opponent's Dark Side energies) and Shatterpoint (the ability to find the weak point in structures, events and people and capitalize on them) allowed him to best Palpatine, despite his weaker overall strength in the Force. I am one of those fans, and I think if not for Anakin's intervention, Palpatine may well have been done for.
- Furthermore, the story is arguably more interesting if there is even a slight possibility of Palpatine failing and losing to Mace, instead of Palpatine being a completely Invincible Villain. Rule of Drama can apply to villains, too. Sure, Palpatine was making a huge gamble by putting himself in a situation where he might have died if Anakin hadn't arrived in time, but you don't get to be emperor of an entire galaxy without taking a few risks.
- Alternatively, it was something of a [Xanatos Gambit/Indy Ploy depending on just how good a plotter Palpatine actually was. He may have intended to fight and kill Mace himself but on sensing Anakin nearby retooled the plan to accelerate the fall instead by forcing Anakin to take action instead of just hanging around angsting - this way Anakin has tied himself to Palpatine much more firmly. And if all HAD gone wrong and Mace killed Palpatine, presumably there would have been ways to release that footage to, as they did with the initial arrest (albeit craftily edited.) However it shakes out, the Jedi are screwed.
- "Welcome, Lord Vader. We've been expecting you." This is a fairly innocuous line out of context, but to Anakin/Vader it should have been a revelation. See, when Vader arrives on Mustafar he is welcomed by the Separatists, who clearly know who he is and that he's coming. That Palpatine was the one that told them is obvious: they know his Sith name, which only Palpatine would know, and knew he was coming on a mission that only Vader and Palpatine knew about. However, Palpatine by this point has not divulged to Vader (and likely never does) that he is in cahoots with the Separatists; indeed, revealing this would probably turn Vader against him, as Vader joined Palpatine due to his belief that the Jedi were taking over and to protect his wife. Nute Gunray, however, just laid it out for him Palpatine's collusion in not only starting a massive, galaxy-spanning war in order to increase his own power, but also was involved in multiple attempts on Padme's life. Coupled with the fact that he now knows that Palpatine doesn't know how to cheat death, the scales should have completely fallen from Vader's eyes in that moment, if only to realize that he has damned himself on a lie. So why didn't he?
- This is talked about further up the page. Basically Anakin already knows he's working with the man who orchestrated the entire war by that point and made peace with it (or as much peace as man in his shoes could). I would even venture to say he didn't like it and it cost the lives of many people he held nothing against but his personal demons were already too strong at that point to look back on it and decide to stand down. He had already committed an unforgivable act at the Jedi Temple, Sidious was probably his only ally at that point.
Issuing Order 66
- So Palpatine issues the order by calling commanders and saying the word, and they cannot disobey. Consider how many worlds with how many clone battalions there are across the galaxy. Did he spend the whole day calling various clones and repeating these three words? Additionally, in The Clone Wars it was explained that the clones were programmed to kill Jedi with biochips. If that was the case, couldn't Palpatine have simply pressed a button? If it was activated via voice command, it is still retarded, especially with the "the time has come" bit which implies that the clones have known for some time what they would be ordered to do. It could have been more logical to summon all troopers to the HQ's (luring the Jedi there as well), send a transmission to explain the Jedi's coup, issue the order with this justification, then activate the chips to prevent any clones from disobeying.
- The Clones all knew about Order 66, because it's a list of standing orders they all had that might be invoked one day — Order 67, for instance, is almost the same, but it's about removing the Chancellor instead. Even if it is activated by voice, that doesn't mean Palpatine had to call each one individually and repeat it — he could just have his message sent to all of them at once. Or it was prerecorded. The chips are there to make sure none of the clones have second thoughts about fragging the commanders they've been working alongside for several years.
- If the message was pre-recorded, why do the clones even bother to answer ("Yes, my Lord", "It will be done, my Lord") as if Palpatine is listening? (unless he wanted to hear a million voices answer at once because he was that much of an egomaniac) Besides, the message to Cody starts with "Commander Cody, the time has come" which suggests a personal message. Furthermore, the "the time has come" bit suggests that the clones were aware that it's a matter of time before they execute Order 66, specifically, and not another contingency order. The only possibility is that Palpatine has informed the clones at some point between the arrest attempt and sending the transmission - after all, the 501st Legion received the order earlier, likely personally by Palpatine or Anakin. I, at least, took "the time has come" to mean that the clones have known their true purpose since before the war. But it could be interpreted as "The 501st have cleared the temple and set the trap. Proceed to execute Order 66 across the galaxy, they have no safe haven now."
- They're soldiers. They hear an order, they confirm it.
- It's possible that the Order spread throughout the army by clones letting each other know, and Palpatine just got the ball rolling by contacting a few.
- And Palpatine's clearly been waiting for this for a while. The satisfaction he got from that first command - and trying to have Obi-Wan killed first would have been no accident - would be immeasurable.
- The Clones all knew about Order 66, because it's a list of standing orders they all had that might be invoked one day — Order 67, for instance, is almost the same, but it's about removing the Chancellor instead. Even if it is activated by voice, that doesn't mean Palpatine had to call each one individually and repeat it — he could just have his message sent to all of them at once. Or it was prerecorded. The chips are there to make sure none of the clones have second thoughts about fragging the commanders they've been working alongside for several years.
- When exactly did Obi-Wan pick up Anakin's lightsaber? It seemed he just lopped off Anakin's legs, had a chat and left. But he had to have picked it up at some point to keep it until giving it to Luke, right?
- As Obi-Wan starts walking away, before Anakin starts yelling "I hate you!", there's a clear shot of Obi-Wan picking up the lightsaber.
Congratulations you're having...twins?!
- So I know that Padme did get check ups to make sure she was healthy(according to the novelization anyway)and I understand why she wanted to keep the baby's gender a surprise but surely she should have been told she was having twins? It's not like anyone in the fandom doesn't know that Luke and Leia are siblings at this point.
- As I recall, Obi Wan is the only one surprised at the mention of babies. I don't recall Padme ever specifying that she's having only one baby, just that she's pregnant.
- Well except for the fact that whenever the subject of her pregnancy comes up, the dialog only refers to one baby. This line for example: Ani, I want to have our baby back home on Naboo. We could go to the lake country where no one would know . . . where we would be safe. I could go early-and fix up the baby's room. I know the perfect spot, right by the gardens. Or this: Anakin: You die in childbirth . . . Padme: And the baby? Anakin: I don't know. This gives the distinct impression that until the birth no one, not even Padme, knew she was carrying twins. And if Padme did know why didn't she ever mention it? She had no reason to hide that fact and even if she did you'd think she'd have told Anakin, seeing as he's the father. Yet she has to be told by Obi wan that she had twins and years later Darth Vader, who made such a big deal about Luke being his son and searched the whole galaxy to find him and try to get him to join him, doesn't seem to know that Leia is his daughter, or even that he had another child besides Luke, until he plucks that fact from Luke's mind. It doesn't really make sense does it?
- We never actually see the exact moment Padme learns she's having twins. As the point above notes, Obi-Wan is the only one who is explicitly surprised when the medical droid mentions twins. At that point, Padme's in a different room and when the twins are born, she's too busy giving birth/dying for anyone to be able to accurately state if she was surprised when the second baby popped out. It's entirely possible that she only discovered she was going to be having twins after she and Anakin were separated from each other - the only time they meet once things start getting ugly is just before Ani leaves for Mustafa/when she goes to Mustafar to confront him. Neither of which are exactly prime opportunities for her to be all "Oh, by the way we're gonna be having twins, mkay?".
Sure, I'll kill a bunch of kids...
- So Anakin is desperate to save Padme, and he believes that only Palpatine can prevent her death. When Mace Windu moves to kill Palpatine, Anakin panics and attacks Windu, causing his death. So far, so good. But then Palpatine commands Anakin to go to the Jedi temple and kill them all, which he does, including the children. But unlike his slaughter of the Tusken Raiders, which was fuelled by rage over his mother's death (which they were directly responsible for) this is a cold, unfeeling massacre. I can understand Anakin might be angry that the Jedi almost took away his only chance to save Padme, but what did the children have to do with it? How were they to blame? And why in the world would he think killing them would magically save Padme? Killing children in cold-blood takes a twisted mind indeed, and Anakin was still human enough to feel remorse after killing Mace Windu by accident. How can he go from that to child-murderer in the space of five minutes? It makes it hard to feel any sympathy for Vader at all when he didn't even question how Palpatine's command would save Padme.
- He didn't kill the kids because he thought they were somehow responsible or because he thought it was part of the process of saving Padme. He's depressed and psychologically vulnerable, and Palpatine is taking advantage of that to get him to do whatever he wants. He spins it as, "The Jedi are evil. They want to take over and kill me. Therefore, they have to be destroyed. Then I'll feel safe enough to help you save Padme."
- Palpatine also points out, completely logically and correctly, that if any Jedi survive, they'll be a threat to both him and Anakin. "If a single Jedi survives, there will be civil war without end." And Anakin knows the Jedi well enough to know that this is factually true. . . no Jedi will rest until the Sith have been wiped out, since that's exactly what they've been priming Anakin for since day one. Killing all the Jedi in the Temple, even the children, is simply pragmatic. . . don't leave live enemies at your back. Palpatine also tells Anakin, rather more nebulously, that by killing all the Jedi he'll be strong enough in the Dark Side to save Padme. Going by various RPG sources (I know, of dubious canonicity), a Force-Sensitive's "Dark Side Points/Dark Side Score" affect how close they are to being a full-fledged Darksider. Anakin probably had a few Dark Side Points after killing Mace Windu (most of them unintentional), but then actively chose to join Palpatine. So Palpatine sending Anakin to the Temple was "Here, commit enough evil acts there to gain enough Dark Side Points to unlock the Sith Prestige Class."
- Well, let's apply this to the real world. On the one hand, you've got a guy (let's call him Annie) who accidentally caused the death of another man while attempting to stop him. Any halfway decent lawyer would make the case that this was just a crime borne of passion, this wasn't a cold-blooded, calculated murder. He was merely trying to stop him but unfortunately picked the wrong method of stopping him and things spiraled out of control and presto, guy's dead. On the other hand, you've got a guy (again, let's call him Annie) who took a gun, walked into his home and shot up every last resident within who once called him family. Every. Single. One. Of. Them. Down to the children. In other words, in the first case there could have been a plausible chance of redemption. In the second? With the cold-blooded massacre? Not a single chance. Not even Matt Murdoch would be able to defend this guy adaquently. To put it simply, by having Anakin murder the Jedi, Sidious was testing his will and resolve to the Dark Side and to sever any chance of redemption and forgiveness from the Jedi's side.
- And do note that his actions take a clear toll on him throughout the film, that scene included.
Why does the Emperor stick with a screwed Vader?
- After the Vader/Kenobi fight is over and Vader comes out severely injured, why does Palpatine bother to keep him as an apprentice? Wouldn't it had been more efficient to let him die and then look for another apprentice instead of going through the trouble of restoring him to a sort of health? At this point we know Palpatine lets disciples die as if they were easily replaceable; plus, a puppet master like him would probably have a pile of résumés waiting by his desk in case Vader ever died. Furthermore, by then Palpatine is Emperor, so it's not like he would have any lack of candidates throughout the Galaxy.
- Yeah, there are lots more Force-sensitives out there, but Vader a) knows how Jedi think, so he makes a great Jedi hunter for all the ones who escape Order 66, b) is still enormously powerful and skilled, not to mention having plenty of military experience, c) already trained in the Force, and d) isn't powerful or cunning enough to actually try and kill Palpatine. If you were Palpatine, would you go through the bother of either corrupting another Jedi, or training another apprentice when you already have a servant who probably won't kill you for the reasons stated in the above thread, but is still incredibly badass?