Ever notice that dozens, if not hundreds, of rhinoceri were probably killed by collapsing the ceiling of the prison? The movie kind of forgets about them, and it is quite horrible to think about the guards that were undoubtedly crushed under tons of rock.
Depending on what they may have done to their only prisoner for twenty years, they may have deserved this.
Take those off of Tai Lung, he can't do martial arts in leather pants!
How is theorizing that the guards may have tortured Tai Lung and thus deserved what happened to them DILPing Tai Lung? It isn't excusing what he did, just explaining why he may have done so beyond just "Rawr kill!"
Also, well, did you forget that Tai Lung is the villain? Killing good guys is kinda what they do. Yes, it's bad that the rhinos got killed. It's supposed to be.
I'm not arguing that it shouldn't be included. I mean, they are identical Red Shirts and therefore their purpose in life is to establish the villain's villainy. I'm just pointing out that the movie makes no mention of what must logically have been a fantastically gruesome rhino massacre off-screen.
Why didn't Tai Lung's muscles atrophy from spending twenty years in the exact same position, unable to exercise them?
He is just that awesome.
Perhaps he worked out by struggling against his confines?
I too wondered about this, but then I came up with an explanation that IMO seems more like Fridge Brilliance: the paralyzing tortoise shell was explicitly stated to draw all of Tai Lung's chi to the pressure points being stimulated. If you assume chi to be one's life force, as it is generally believed to be, then it wouldn't be too difficult to imagine that trapping it in one place would also arrest the body's metabolism. Thus, no atrophying, thus Tai Lung staying in peak physical condition and at the height of his kung fu skills. It might even explain how he actually got stronger, by concentrating his power. (And even suggests he didn't physically age!) This of course doesn't explain other questions which were raised by Tai Lung's imprisonment (how was he able to relieve himself? How did he eat? Why was his fur so clean and soft-looking after twenty years??). But it's otherwise a brilliant stroke, I think.
If it does arrest his body's metabolism, that would mean he doesn't eat or excrete. He also wouldn't shed fur, and the thing imprisoning him would keep him from getting any dirt or dust on it, so he should still be pretty clean. Of course, he was still able to move his tail, so his metabolism couldn't have been completely shut down. They might just partially free him to feed him and clean him every month or so.
That...is a very good point. This is what happens when you don't follow your own ideas to their logical conclusion. Makes me wonder though what happened the first time Tai Lung ate after he escaped... Squick. One point though: we don't know for sure it's possible to only partially free Tai Lung (though if they just released some of the pins but not all, that would do it), but even if so, I can't really see Vachir and his guards being humane enough to do such a thing. Not only do they come across as nasty abusive pricks who don't give a damn, but after what Tai Lung did, why would anyone (other than Shifu and Oogway) think he deserved any kind of good treatment? If partially freeing him was necessary to feed him, then it makes sense, but I doubt they cleaned him much if at all. (And of course if they freed him to feed him, they must have also had to do so to bring him a bedpan or whatever.) The more I think about this, the more Squick-inducing and Fate Worse than Death-ish it seems. If Tai Lung actually killed lots of people (which Dream Works naturallydoesn't tell us), he definitely deserves punishment, but...how humiliating, and terrifying. Not to mention practically guaranteeing his insanity and rage if he ever got out...
The answer would be that his chi sustains him, in-universe. Does it make sense from a scientific standpoint? No, but the movie isn't drawing from that. One of the hallmarks of mastery over one's chi in various tales was being able to sustain yourself in basically this way.
The Furious Five did mention that the Dragon Warrior could survive by the nourishment of a single drop of dew from a plant and the energy of the cosmos. Maybe Tai Lung could do better?
The original information given about the sequel was about Sinlong. Obviously, the people at Dream Works changed their minds. It's possible he (or at least a dragon villain) will still show up in the series or other sequels. Anyway, end result is: still not Tai Lung, so there was no Sequel Hook.
Update: how many want to bet that Ke-pa from the TV series was a reworking of Sinlong's concept?
Because some people think it's inappropriate to show the hero so thoroughly destroy his enemy that all that remains is the exploded remnants of a villain's flesh scattered across the landscape in a children's movie. Go figure.
Or perhaps they were just playing the whole thing for laughs. Or the whole point was that Po wasn't the kind of person to do something so destructive it would explode his enemy into fragments of flesh. Take your pick. (Note that Shifu said the worst part about the hold was cleaning up the mess afterwards. But we not only didn't see much of a mess to clean up, it almost looks like the wave of chi actually repairs a lot of the damage to the village. This really doesn't match what Shifu described at all. So...was he lying to scare Po? Did Po use the hold in a way different than how Shifu would have, because he's a nice guy and not a Jerk AssCynical Mentor?)
I assumed it to be more of an "instant return to the Universe" thing more than the gory reality of death, and that the gold-colored "dust cloud" that settles over everyone at the end is... well... what remains of Tai Lung's body, which does rather make one think about how they're all going to get that out of their fur.
He's dead. I don't understand what all the confusion is about.
Is he really? I'd say that'd count as Character Derailment for Po, who really doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to kill a defeated and broken opponent in cold blood like that, especially a sympathetic character like Tai Lung. I understand that part of the difference between Po and Tai Lung is that Po had a real life, he had something to relate to in order to help him understand the message of the scroll, whereas Tai Lung didn't (which just makes him all the more sympathetic, how Tai Lung turned out really was all Shifu's fault), but I was still hoping Tai Lung would come around in some way rather than be killed off. Hm.
I was under the impression that when Shi Fu apologized, and Tai Lung acknowledged it but refused nonetheless, that he showed that he was beyond redemption, regardless of whatever initial reasoning he may have for his vendetta.
Or maybe he was just too tunnel-visioned and stubborn to admit he was wrong, and still thought that he deserved what was promised to him almost from birth by his equally arrogant father.
If he died, it was his own damn fault. The Wuxi Finger Hold is based on the movie's Mind Makes It Real magic system- if Tai Lung believed he would die from it, then he did, and if he had just figured that much out he would have been fine.
Tai Lung has already demonstrated a willingness and ability to escape an inescapable prison to take revenge for not having been given the Dragon Scroll. If Po lets him go, or tries to imprison him again, that'll just lead to him being even more angry that a Panda of all things beat him, so you'll just have him coming back again and again to get his revenge, and eventually he's going to get more creative than "run into the valley and beat the crap out of everyone." If Po did kill him, then that's only pragmatic.
Perhaps not. Tai Lung wanted the Dragon Scroll because he wanted to be the Dragon Warrior. Except he was totally and utterly beaten by the real Dragon Warrior, who understood the Dragon Scroll because he had internal qualities that Tai Lung did not and could not have. By utterly denying Tai Lung his goal and proving it utterly futile, Po has completely unmotivated him. You could argue that Tai Lung is not honorable or sensible enough to realise he's been beaten, but it's something to think about.
The point isn't whether Tai Lung deserved to die (almost certainly), or whether Po would be capable of killing (also almost certainly, martial arts isn't about cuddling after all), it's rather that Po joked around with a smug look on his face while killing Tai Lung. If Tai Lung had left him no other choice, or if Po had seemed sad to have to do it, it would have been one thing. The fact that Po smirked at Tai Lung while Tai Lung begged for his life, and Po's last word to him was "Skidoosh", makes Po look like the monster in that situation. In other words, it's not that he did it, it's how he did it.
I wouldn't say he deserved to die (since we still don't know if he actually killed anyone in the rampage, and there was still the chance he might be able to redeem himself) but otherwise I agree completely.
As mentioned, Tai Lung is indeed the character with the most potential in the whole Kung Fu Panda franchise. There is all the potential in his relationship with Shifu and what would happen to it in the long run. There is the fact that he and Tigress are technically adopted siblings, so that leaves a whole unopened can of interesting interactions there. If he were to pull a Heel-Face Turn, just imagine all the possibilities as he'd fight alongside the good guys against bad guys. Hell, just the thought of Po and Tai Lung going through Defeat Means Friendship and into Odd Friendship combined with Red Oni, Blue Oni would make for great potential both in and out of battle. Indeed, Tai Lung does seem to be the character with the most potential for great stuff in the franchise. A franchise titled "Kung Fu Panda", meaning that no matter what happens, everything will always go back to revolving entirely around the panda. Is it any wonder the Furious Five barely got any development or even screentime in the first movie? And now the second movie just adds a whole slew of new characters to compete for what little screentime they'll have that's not taken up by Po and the villain. Meaning, there is no room for the character with the most potential to have said potential developed, which is a huge shame.
There's a fanfic that does have Tai Lung perform a Heel-Face Turn, which is extremely well written. Can't find the link, but it was on Fanfiction.net
So Let Me Get This Straight. Oogway refuses Tai Lung the Dragon Scroll. Tai Lung is angry, so he turns around, leaves the temple, climbs down all those stairs, "lays waste to the village", climbs all the way back up aforementioned stairs, back into the temple, tries to take the scroll by force, and is stopped by Oogway. Is it just me, or does the trip down to destroy the village seem like a colossal waste of time? If he was going to take it by force anyway, why not do it right off the bat? It's not like beating the crap out of helpless pigs and geese was going to change Oogway's mind. Would've saved everyone the time and other resources it took to keep him in his own prison, at the very least. I get that the rampage bit was put in to make Tai Lung less sympathetic, but in the story's context it's still weird.
I get the impression he went down to the village to sulk, and after a day or two decided that his masters had totally betrayed him. He then went on a rampage around the village (to make himself feel better) before climbing up to the temple to take the Dragon Scroll by force.
One angle on the "rampage" is this: Perhaps Tai Lung went and caused trouble in the village to pull guards/warriors away from the Jade Palace. Once enough guards/warriors were gone, he planned to sneak into the Palace and just steal the scroll. Unfortunately, Oogway and Shifu knew their former pupil too well....
I actually addressed this in a Fan Fic I'm writing. The short explanation is that, based on the fact it was daylight in the flashback when Tai Lung was denied the scroll, and it was night when he burst in to steal it, I concluded the intervening time was indeed spent sulking down in the village. But I also included a direct impetus to the rampage by saying one of the villagers was mocking and cruel to him for being turned down (I based this on how they treated Po after the scroll was blank and he seemed helpless to stop Tai Lung), and for thinking he could change his station in life as an orphan. (Knowing who your family and ancestors are, staying true to them, and remaining in your place in life were all very important in ancient China, and to some extent still are.) So...Tai Lung didn't just immediately explode in rage, something set him off. There may not be any direct proof of this, but it isn't contradicted either, and it makes sense I think.
Maybe Tai Lung went down and trashed the village because he was so angry, he had to hit somebody, and if he did so at the temple, he knew he'd wind up fighting Shifu as well as Oogway. At the time, Tai's feelings about his foster father might've still been too conflicted to do that.
I don't think he immediately went down to the village and started his city-wide reign of terror. Like others said, he went around for a few days, sulking and allowing that anger and sense of betrayal to fester and boil inside him until it finally exploded out of him in a violent fury and attempt to take the Dragon Scroll by force. I believe part of the reason for Shifu's guilt is if he'd just found Tai Lung and had a long talk with him and just told him he was proud of him either way, then it all could have been avoided. But he didn't for whatever reason he had, and left Tai Lung alone to sulk, thus resulting in Tai Lung's reign of terror/attack on the Palace. It's also why Shifu's guilt transformed him into such a Jerk Ass.
The reason the rampage in the village doesn't seem to fit or make sense for someone whose goal was just to claim the scroll is because it was added in later—it was never supposed to be there to begin with. In the DVD commentary, the directors admitted that people were feeling so sympathetic for Tai Lung they had forgotten he was the villain, so they inserted the rampage to remind people how and why he was bad. The mistake they made is that because of this insertion not being part of the original script, the event itself no longer makes sense in-universe, requiring us to figure out why he would go on a rampage, then come back up to get the scroll.
But without the rampage evacuating the valley and saying that Tai Lung will kill Shifu if he faces him don't really make sense.
That may be true, but it's still what the director's commentary said, and that trumps anything else. Maybe when they added the rampage in, they also added the part about evacuating the Valley? As for Shifu's life being in danger, Tai Lung attacked Shifu when he came for the scroll, and that part was in the script before the rampage was added, so Shifu would still have reason to fear for his life even if there had been no rampage.
And another thing... Tai Lung did his Face-Heel Turn after Oogway said he wasn't worthy of the Dragon scroll because there was "darkness" inside of him. Even assuming that he was telling the truth, why didn't anyone bother to rehabilitate Tai Lung? Sure, it makes Tai Lung a more unsympathetic villain, but there's the Unfortunate Implication that redemption isn't an option at all.
Shifu did try to redeem him, right at the end where he tells him how proud he always was. And for about a half second, it looks like Tai Lung is going to stop his rampage and repent. But he refuses. As for before that, well, he went right from "I'm not getting the Scroll?" to "RAWR KILL EVERYONE IN THE VALLEY AND TAKE IT ANYWAY!" in, what, less than a day? You think they were going to risk waking him up to talk to him and giving him the opportunity to do it again?
Of course we don't know for sure that Tai Lung's view of Shifu might not have changed once he found out the scroll wasn't what he thought it was. Realizing you almost killed your own father for a blank scroll you couldn't understand and were never meant to have would have to be a sobering experience for anyone, unless they were simply insane. Which while Tai Lung certainly seemed deranged at various times does not really hold water for every scene he's in. (The bridge fight comes to mind.)
Shifu did try to redeem him by apologizing and saying he was proud, but let's not forget that that apology and statement of being proud came a full 20 years later, all of which Tai Lung spent locked up in a jail under some sort of contraption that held him in an always kneeling position, as though bowing to the jailer who openly mocked him. Even after Tai Lung returns to the Valley, he doesn't go on a second rampage, he goes directly to the Palace, where he greets Shifu not violently, but telling him he's come home and calling him "Master", to which Shifu responds by telling Tai Lung that that's not his home anymore, nor is he his master anymore. It's only after Shifu challenges him that Tai Lung attacks (making that two times he doesn't throw the first punch in a battle), and he finally apologizes to Tai Lung and tells him he was always proud only after Tai Lung's beaten him (which also sounds a little too awfully convenient that all the nice words come only after Tai Lung bests Shifu in battle). Personally, at that point, the apology and statement of being proud just seemed way beyond "too little too late" territory.
With the history they have, just walking up with a casual "I'm home" comes off as more than a little crazy/sociopathic to me. I don't blame Shifu for not smile and welcoming him with open arms (especially given what he did to the Furious Five).
True, but since according to the director's commentary Tai Lung actually believed that if he got the scroll he could figure out its power, become a hero, and prove Oogway wrong, he may have decided that being calm and unthreatening, simply stating he was home, would help convince Shifu his rage and madness were a thing of the past and he should be given a chance to prove the scroll was his. From Shifu's POV it's highly suspicious, but from Tai Lung's he was being as friendly and peaceful as he could under the circumstances.
Besides, there's the whole "trashed a village full of innocent people". Hitting one person who might've mocked him in anger? Sure. But to go nuts like that implies he wasn't entirely right in the head.
We don't know there was only one who mocked him. But yeah I agree, something must not have been right in Tai Lung's head. Whether that was caused by Shifu's parenting and training, or something else, who knows, but it is something of a plot hole. You can always say he just had a chemical imbalance in the brain like crazy people often do, but that seems a little bit too realistic...and depressing.
'Might've' is the operative word. We only know what we were given. And the movie never says anyone mocks him. It says that there's a darkness in him, and when he was denied something he felt entitled to, he went on a rampage in the nearby village. Sounds to me like a good example of why Oogway was right and why he shouldn't have been the Dragon Warrior.
Considering Oogway never even explained what this darkness was or where it came from, this whole line of thought is a bit questionable. Yes, Oogway was right Tai Lung should not be the Dragon Warrior, but we still don't know why he had this darkness or what it was, let alone whether anything could have been done to change it or prevent it, particularly by Shifu as he was raising him.
This. Also the reason I at least think people may have mocked him is because a) the villagers mocked Po when the Dragon Scroll was blank and it seemed he was not the Dragon Warrior, or at least was useless in saving them from Tai Lung and b) the point made below that going down to the village and rampaging really makes no sense and, from Shifu and Oogway's POV was uncharacteristic of Tai Lung (or else they would have made more of an effort to explain why he wasn't given the scroll or that he was still worthy of love and pride without it). I.e., something must have set him off, and being mocked for not getting the scroll seems like the most viable option. Or perhaps not even mockery, someone may simply have brought up the fact he was turned down and this aggravated his already simmering resentment.
Which, while sweet, does bring this right back to the original point. Suggesting Oogway never tried to redeem Tai Lung because 'a leopard can't change his spots' is unfair, nonsensical (because for all the criminals out there who never change, there are plenty who do truly rehabilitate themselves), and most importantly, out-of-character for Oogway.
In Monkey's part of the Secrets of the Furious Five extra, Oogway helps him overcome his Jerkass habits (albeit, they were less severe than Tai Lung's turned out to be) so it seems odd that he would never try to help Tai Lung. More likely, I think, Oogway was trying to help Tai Lung. He may have figured that the only way for Tai Lung to ascend to the next level on the road to inner peace was to find out that his destiny was not something which Shifu could give him, but rather, something which he needed to forge for himself. Maybe he just underestimated the 'darkness' he saw in him. Everyone screws up from time to time, after all.
First looks who talking about "darkness" in Tai Lung. Ah yes, Master Tigress. Such a reliable, not-overflowing-with-envy-at-all witness she is. Second, giving Tai Lung the scroll at that point almost certainly would have resulted in an even worse freakout (even if the Dragon Scroll indeed was a power-granting McGuffin). Tai Lung's whole motivation is seeking self-validation through external means. Outside of his kung-fu techniques, his victories and his training to be the Dragon Warrior he has no life, no goals and no sense of self-worth (just watch what he says upon seeing his own reflection on the Dragon Scroll). He had no chance of understanding the scroll's wisdom or accepting it into his heart, if explained. His reaction would have been a feeling of immense betrayal, quite probably still leading to a rampage. Now let's assume that the Dragon Scroll indeed is an artifact of ultimate power and Tai Lung is allowed to obtain it. Still a soul-crushing (if less immediately) outcome for him, because from that point his life is essentially over - the sole ambition in his life is, well, already achieved, and he cannot even enjoy fighting for the sake of fighting, because he's too powerful to have any rivals. So, however you look at, Oogway, being a great judge of character, did the best he could in the circumstances by refusing Tai Lung the scroll. This at least could have caused Tai Lung to ask himself what exactly he lacks, leading him to reevaluating his life. Unfortunately for everyone, when Tai Lung felt what was his entire life crumbling around him, his ego and sense of entitlement, born out of belief that a person's worth is measured by his/her kung fu skills kicked in, and Shifu wasn't there to support him, and the rest is history. If Oogway is really guilty of anything, it is giving Shifu a free rein in training pupils when Shifu obviously wasn't qualified.
A good point. Watch the scene again, both Shifu and Oogway are caught flat-footed when Tai Lung declares that he will take "what is his" and leaps to get it. Only Oogway's reactions (mighty fast for a tortoise) prevented Tai Lung from getting it in the first place.
Good points all, especially that we only have Tigress's word on what Oogway said and why he rejected Tai Lung; considering the things she and Tai Lung have in common, she'd have a pretty good motive for trying to make him look far worse than herself, possessed of an intrinsic 'evil' she didn't have. Still, even though you are quite right that there were two chances in three things with Tai Lung and the scroll would turn out badly, I still think Oogway should have tried harder to prevent his prophecy from coming to pass—particularly if as you say Shifu had proven himself unqualified. Unless of course Oogway couldn't bring himself to think too badly of his own student, or he had too much faith that Tai Lung's ability to be introspective and re-examine himself would be stronger than his ego, pride, and temper... It's also pretty clear, of course, that Tai Lung's belief that his worth would be measured by his kung fu skills and that he needed external things to prove his own value are things he received from Shifu's parenting and training. Nice job breaking it, panda.
Why couldn't Po be both a kung-fu master and a noodle cook? He's established to be a very good cook by the Furious Five, but the movie kept downplaying his cooking as something not worth aspiring to. The movie could've ended with Po embracing both of his skills (perhaps right after "You wanna get something to eat?"), and it would have also given the movie an opportunity to play an extra aesop about harmony and balance. They even tossed in the taijitu...
Possibly because the Five seem to spend all their time training. Doesn't leave much time for working in a noodle restaurant. Though I could see them, with Po's influence, lightening up a little bit, which you can already see with Shifu. Heck, he probably becomes the Palace's cook.
He does at the end. During the credit, you can see Po running his father's restaurant.
What makes you think Po wants to be a noodle cook? He didn't look too happy anytime that was referenced as his destiny. Sure, he makes a good soup and he likes cooking with his dad, and for his friends, but that doesn't mean he wants to make a career out of it. It's pretty clear right from the start that he's completely focused on kung-fu and was only making soup because of his dad.
Waaiiitttt...the purpose of the dragon warrior is to defeat Tai Lung, but he wanted to be the dragon warrior, so, huh? I think I missed something.
The purpose of the Dragon Warrior is to bring peace to the valley. If Tai Lung is around, that disrupts the peace.
Why does everyone keep saying the dragon scroll is blank? If you ask me, you're missing the point. It ain't blank... it's reflective. The point is to show that you are the "secret ingredient". Yes, this still carries the Be Yourself moral, I just think it's more clearly displayed than "oh look, blank paper".
It is blank. As in, it has no writing or kung fu magic in it. They were all expecting that sort of stuff, so to not see it, they think it's blank. Also, reflective is still blank, the same way a mirror is, or a piece of glass.
Is it blank? Or is it filled with that which it reflects?
Can someone explain how a crane carrying a tiger, monkey, viper, and a mantis was somehow able to beat a snow leopard across a valley?
Same way a mantis can hold up a bridge holding a tiger, monkey, viper, and snow leopard singlehandedly. It seems Kung Fu gives you Charles Atlas Superpowers in the setting. Also, Tai Lung would've wanted them to get back faster, so he might've slowed down a bit.
Tai Lung purposely sent them as a warning to the Dragon Warrior, remember? It would be bad form to show up before the warning that you were coming reached the village.
Also, Crane could go as the crow flies (i.e. straight over the ravines and mountains) while Tai Lung had to take the scenic route.
Scenic indeed... he's been in prison for a long time. He was probably appreciating seeing some scenery, eating some food, and possibly having some pleasurable company on his way back. He's obviously not obsessed to the point of blotting everything else out, or he wouldn't have bothered to exchange witty banter with the Five, he'd have just kicked their asses and charged onward.
Why do people constantly underestimate Po due to his looks? He's a fucking bear!
Because he's fat and out of shape, and pandas don't have the same reputation as other bears do, and for that matter are NOT bears. Pandas are more closely related to raccoons.
Wrong pandas. Panda bears are bears but not really pandas as they can hardly digest bamboo. You're thinking of red pandas, what Shifu is.
Giant Pandas are bears. Red Pandas are raccoons.
You still don't mess with Pandas, though. Wild ones are well known to bite through leopard's necks in protection of their young, and there's also accounting of those maulings by the people at zoos who tried to hug one...
And have you seen one sneeze?
Grasshopper/cricket? Okay. A snake? Okay. A Red Panda? Teacher and the master of the kung fu school. A really old turtle? Grand-master of the said school. A freaking huge panda? Nuh-huh! Not fit to study here from the first sight!
It was more than just his appearance. Much of the animosity towards Po included his fanboyish tendencies, near inability to take his training seriously (or focus on it), but also that he dropped in on the ceremony by happenstance. The title of Dragon Warrior was long shrouded in mystery, and naturally Shifu and his pupils assumed that their diligence and hard work meant one of the Furious Five would be granted the title. But then along comes this noodle-vendor on a ball of fire(works) landing right in front of Oogway's pointer. Tigress in particular felt like something had been stolen from her; she'd worked hard on her fighting style over the years, and when it seems she's in the running for such an honor, Po unintentionally up and takes it (which is probably why she's about the last one of the group to truly accept Po for who he is).
Could've sworn Mantis was a praying mantis, not a grasshopper or a cricket.
The characters all seem to be animals native to China (or East Asia in general), or livestock commonly found there. So why is there a gorilla in Secrets of the Furious Five? Gorillas are from Africa! If it has to be a great ape, why not an orangutan? They don't live in China either, but are at least Asian animals. What do you say? Not imposing enough to serve as the template for a mean badass warrior character? Well, grown up male orangutans certainly are! (And they make excellent librarians, but that's beside the point...) Or was the character I am talking about originally supposed to be a Gigantopithecus (a gigantic ape living in prehistoric China), but the authors feared that too few people would know what that is?
That's not a gorilla, gorillas don't have tails.
I am not talking about Monkey, one of the members of the kung fu team called the "Furious Five". I am talking about a character (explicitly referred to as a gorilla) in the (partly) 2D animated short film called Secrets of the Furious Five, where Po narrates the origin stories of the Furious Five. The gorilla is the villain in the segment about Viper's origin. As far as I can recall, he didn't have a visible tail.
Well, if Po's narrating, maybe he just got his facts wrong?
Well, it can be said that there's the possibility that people from other countries travel to China, that could explain a gorilla being there.
What about the rhinos who guard the prison? Are they common in mountainous China?
They're found in the foothills of the Himalayas in eastern India and Nepal, both of which have rhino sanctuaries not too far from their borders with China. It's not a stretch to imagine that their habitat could have extended into ancient southern China, pre-endangered status.
There are also gorillas in the sequel, serving as Shen's soldiers. I either think they are actually Gigantopithecus (referred to as gorillas because Viewers Are Morons), or they have traveled from Africa to China (sort of like a Scary Black Man serving in the Chinese army).
What's with the names? Tigress, Mantis, Viper... Oogway, Tai Lung, Po? Shouldn't they be Turtle, Leopard, Panda?
My guess is that the Furious Five had their names changed for some reason. They're the only ones that don't have their own names.
I always figured Tigress, Mantis, Viper, etc. were their titles, rather than their names.
This troper counts Fridge Brilliance here. All of the Furious Five are the representative animals of five infamous styles of Chinese martial arts, and pretty well follow the basics of those styles (Tigress focuses on footwork, Monkey integrates acrobatic maneuvers into his kung fu, Mantis has the focus on aggressiveness of Northern Praying Mantis, Viper strikes from unpredictable angles in Snake-style kung fu, and Crane has a combination of more graceful, targeted attacks). In this list, Tai Lung is actually a weird aversion of the naming trend, since he fights like he's using leopard kung fu.
The reason Tai Lung breaks the tradition is to give him a Meaningful Name, courtesy of his father Shifu: Tai Lung means "great/ultimate dragon", so he is named for what it was believed he would be (the Dragon Warrior) rather than his kung fu style. It is also implied in Tai Lung's write-up in Art of Kung Fu Panda that being imprisoned in Chorh-Gom caused his kung fu to become "tainted", his moves becoming more brutal and less formal, like Ultimate Fighting Championship. Any appearance of Leopard Style moves should be considered only in the light of his brutality (one of the style's philosophies is "Why block when you can hit?"), with his coolness and his species thrown in. It could also be that unlike the Five, Tai Lung actually invented his style, which is why he isn't named for it the way the Five are.
If you recall Po's initial gushing over them, they are a kind of superhero team. Their names are superhero code names.
In Art of Kung Fu Panda the makers say they tried to experiment with using personalized character names but in the end kept returning to the 'simplicity' of the generic name. Whether this is an example of viewing the Five as archetypes who embody their kung fu styles, a cop-out motivated by being unable to come up with fitting given names, an attempt to avoid them all having a Meaningful Name in Mandarin (like being named for their styles is any less meaningful?), or because they believed the audiencewouldn't remember Chinese names is up for debate. For what it's worth, most fanfic writers seem to assume the names we are given are titles and the characters actually have undisclosed given names. Which is realistic, as many kung fu masters do/did take a special title upon achieving mastery, albeit one a little more creative than merely the animal of their signature style.
Minor point: Oogway is a phonetic transliteration of the Mandarin word for "turtle", so his name actually is just the name of his species.
Someone who can survive a makeshift rocket slamming them into the pavement? Seems like a viable candidate for the Dragon Warrior (or whatever) to me. Anywho, Po's superhuman resistance to damage bothered me on several levels. It takes away some of the suspense of battling the Big Bad when plowing into a wall at fifty mph doesn't do much to you.
The second time I watched it, I figured that Po's incredible flabbiness absorbed all the impacts he ever faced and allowed him to keep going. Just like at the end.
I always figured that the point of the aforementioned 'fight with the Big Bad' wasn't about fighting him, it was more about making sure he doesn't read the Scroll, because... well, I dunno. Maybe he wants to buy as much time as possible for the villagers to escape, doesn't matter, because it wasn't a battle of strength and combat, but more a battle of creativity and speed, something Tai Lung had over Po 90% of the time. When it finally turns into a straight-up fight, we already know it's over, but it's only for about a minute.
Tigress strikes me as just a female version of Tai Lung, spending the whole movie throwing a tantrum because she wasn't picked to be Dragon Warrior. But she wasn't given a somewhat sympathetic backstory so obviously she's a good guy and Tai Lung, about whom we're given information and actually feel something for, is a villain. What?
Tigress was, in a lot of ways, meant as his Distaff Counterpart. What backstory we do see of her is a direct parallel to what we see of Tai Lung (Shifu correcting her stance harshly instead of how he patted Tai Lung on the head, for example). They're opposite sides of the same coin, with Tai Lung having been spoiled, and her having been denied any of the affection that Shifu had shown Tai Lung.
And "villain" or "good guy" isn't decided solely by backstory, you know. I imagine Tai Lung going berserk on being passed over for the Dragon Scroll and slaughtering the village has something to do with it, for instance.
Point. But it does seem rather backwards that the story writers gave us so little on Tigress and so much on Tai Lung in comparison, just because he was the Big Bad. Whether Tigress's backstory was sympathetic enough—I did feel sorry for her during that flashback, and even more so during her vignette from Secrets of the Furious Five—but the point is that because she was a good guy we didn't need to feel sorry for her. Our sympathy for her was practically pre-programmed by her being a hero. It's the contrast between this and the amount of care, detail, and sympathy in Tai Lung's backstory that creates the dissonance. Yes, the writers clearly did care about Tai Lung and wanted to make him complex and sympathetic (they do say a movie is only as good as its villain), and yes when people liked him too much they clearly backpedaled. But even taking this into account, it seems a bit twisted to make us sympathize with someone, then pull the rug out from under us by revealing they did something horrible which they can't be forgiven for and never showing the possibility of redemption, while meanwhile giving a similar sympathetic backstory to Tigress but keeping her a hero. Not So Different and Foil are all well and good, as is complexity to character, but it gets to a point where it's like "I go to the movies for escapism, not to have my heart trodden on by being made to care about someone who I shouldn't, and who's going to get punished for it".
There's a big difference between Tigress and Tai Lung. Tai Lung was angry because he wasn't the Dragon Warrior. Tigress was angry because Po was, and she didn't think he was capable of living up to it. I got the feeling that if one of the rest of the Furious Five had been chosen, she would have been disappointed, but she would have accepted it. Tai Lung just wanted the power of being the Dragon Warrior, Tigress was concerned about the responsibilities that came along with it. Plus, there's the previously mentioned fact that Tai Lung murdering a village; Tigress being hostile to Po is hardly comparable to that. It's about the reason they were upset, and how they handled their feelings. Tigress didn't need the back story to be sympathetic, because her grievances and actions were perfectly understandable without it.
True, but the fact Tigress was so willing to heap contempt on Po just because he seemed to be pathetic, worthless, and disrespectful of kung fu doesn't say much good about her. Yes, she makes it clear later that she is concerned about the Dragon Warrior being a proper and skilled fighter so as to stop Tai Lung and protect the Valley, but it's also quite clear she was rejecting Po because she thought he was making a mockery of kung fu, because he'd been chosen and not her (who would, in her opinion, be able to stop Tai Lung), because she didn't think a big fat panda could be the Dragon Warrior or had any right to learn kung fu...just like Tai Lung. Let's not also forget that Tigress went off to fight Tai Lung, against her master's express permission, and nearly got herself and the rest of the Five killed because she was so determined to prove she could do it ("this is what you trained me for") even though she wasn't the Dragon Warrior. That kind of disobedience, even if it was ostensibly done in the name of protecting the Valley, is uncomfortably similar to Tai Lung thinking he can do whatever he wants, claim the scroll, because Shifu and Oogway had to be wrong. And of course we still don't even know why Tai Lung attacked the village or thought doing so would help him get the scroll, or whether he actually killed anybody.
Tigress wasn't right in her treatment of Po, but it was understandable. She is not like Tai Lung. Considering Tai Lung's reaction to not getting the scroll was mass murder, it can probably be assumed that, had he been in Tigress' place, Po would have face a bit more than bad treatment. And while Tigress has her flaws, she did actually have a point in thinking Po had no right to be the Dragon Warrior, even if it wasn't fair to treat him as she did. And, while I can see this is up for debate, I do believe her motives in going to fight Tai Lung were true; she wanted to protect the valley, and she didn't think Po could do it (with justification). Yes, she disobeyed, but she wasn't just throwing a tantrum, and I don't think she was after glory. To put it one way; Tai Lung just wanted the glory and power that came from being the Dragon Warrior, Tigress actually wanted to do what the Dragon Warrior was supposed to do, and protect people. To her mind, that was what she was doing, basically the exact opposite of what Tai Lung did.
I never said it wasn't understandable, of course it was. Just pointing out that the traits in her personality which caused her to act that way are ones she has in common with Tai Lung—jealousy, a certain arrogance, a touchy temper, contempt for anyone who seemed to be unworthy of kung fu. She had a good reason for going off to fight Tai Lung and save the Valley, but being disobedient because she believed she was the one meant to do this, and not considering what would happen if she failed, are still similar to Tai Lung's inflated beliefs in his own awesomeness and being above the rules. Not identical, just similar. She clearly felt she had to do something to stop Tai Lung and save everyone...but what she should have done was obey her master and father (filial piety again) and trust that he and Oogway knew what they were doing, would train Po so that he could do what needed to be done. Her heart was in the right place and indeed she did not throw a tantrum or make the mistake of otherwise raging or attacking Po or Shifu, but she still has flaws and personality traits which are similar to Tai Lung's. The whole point of the Not So Different trope is not that two characters are identical, but that they have enough similarities that one can look at the other and see how they could have been had they made different choices. Tigress has better control of herself, more nobleness and selflessness, and more humility (not complete humility, just more of it) than Tai Lung, and that is why she did not turn out like him, not because she's nothing like him. She is Tai Lung if he'd been raised right, or at least better than he was, which is why, as you say, she did what she did for the opposite reasons as him even if some of her underlying feelings and traits were similar. Also, again we still don't know Tai Lung actually created mass murder...and if he had been the one at the palace instead of Tigress, he wouldn't be the person he was—since to be there he'd have to a) have accepted the loss of the Dragon Scroll or b) be raised among other students and friends, having others to care about and defend, which by necessity would mean he'd have been raised differently, been more humble and protective, and thus more like Tigress. So the point is moot.
In the sequel, how Shifu can think that day Po was chosen as the Dragon Warrior was worse than the day he was forced to fight his own adopted son, Tai Lung, after he went berserk seeking to take the Dragon Scroll by force?
Take your pick from the following options: (1)Shifu did not tell the truth because he wanted to use an example more familiar to Po/did not want to bring up the really painful memories (2)People tend to remember their relatively recent woes and misfortunes better than far-removed ones (3)Shifu was enough of a dick that losing the honors of "the master who trained the Dragon Warrior" forever hurt him more than losing his adopted son.
(5) Because it really was a terrible day for him, since it seemed like everything he had lost, everything he had denied Tai Lung, all of the mistakes he'd made, were all for naught. The Dragon Warrior - something he had striven for, pushed his son to destruction for - was reduced to (in his mind) a joke. By his own master. Imagine if you'd spent your whole life protecting something. You protect it even from the people you love, even from your own children. And then one day the person whom you respect most in the world turns around and gives it to some random stranger who just dropped out of the sky. I think it was the worst day of his life because it was the first day where he thought that he might have lost his son for nothing.
I was bothered by that too, until I came to the same conclusion as point 5. Glad to see someone else could find the same sense in it that I did—I am not alone!
Also note that immediately after saying that it was the worst day of his life, Shifu adds that he then realized that the problem was within himself, which allowed him to resolve that inner conflict and achieve inner peace. Just because you solve a problem doesn't mean the problem never existed, and the same goes for pain: Just because you get over it doesn't mean that you were never hurt at all. If you get shot and recover, getting shot will still be pretty high on your list of shittiest things that happened to you, and the same thing applies here.
I'm sure I never took my eyes off the screen until the very end of the credits. But I don't remember hearing/seeing that Shen's family thought he was worthless (Unless we're talking about when HE said it.)
Okay, that actually tells me NOTHING. I think we need a rule somewhere that if you put down "All There In the Manual," you need to put down WHICH manual you're referring to.
Not to mention that the movie explicitly states that the reason Shen's family banished him was because they were horrified that he killed an entire village.
I've no idea which manual it is. Most I've heard is that it was part of his backstory. The reason he was banished has nothing to do with anything. It's totally unrelated to why his parents didn't see any value in him.
Maybe they changed something between their concept of his backstory and their enactment of it. I also only watched the film, and it seemed to me like Shen's parents were perfectly fine parents, and he messed things up all on his own.
I agree that the movie didn't support it, though an easy way to link the two is that was Lord Shen's perspective on the situation. He was sickly as a child, they didn't know how to care for him so sent him to be raised by the Soothsayer who clearly knows medicine (as seen later) who could care for him. Shen viewed this as them being ashamed of him for his color and sickly nature and saw it as abandonment. It's completely in character for him, as he viewed them banishing him for genocide as him being wronged.
The "manual" in question was the KFP website which was updated with info about all the characters' backstories before the sequel came out. Shen's whole story about his Parental Abandonment and being hated for being a sickly albino was detailed there. As to why it was removed, I am guessing because Dream Works learned their lesson from Tai Lung and knew they had to make things less ambiguous to keep the viewers from finding yet another villain Unintentionally Sympathetic.
I still would say that Tai Lung was intentionally sympathetic (supplementary materials do not form a united opinion here). But more importantly, Shen's backstory from what probably was the initial draft made him practically almost a clone of Tai Lung. The actual movie version still has heavy parallels with Tai Lung, but makes Shen a commentary on what Tai Lung would have turned into, had everything happened as he envisioned by the time of KFP 1 story (including the Dragon Scroll giving him more power). As we can see, successfully gaining the immense power he felt entitled to possess at the expense of his family did not make Shen a slightest bit happy. Neither he had any idea what to do with this power or what he wanted from life now, so he slided into just showing them, showing them all, how powerful he is. Same would have happened to Tai Lung in case of him successfully destroying/beating into submission/outliving the rest of the cast and becoming the most powerful kung fu warrior ever with the help of the Dragon Scroll. Except Shen at least had someone with remaining attachments to him (the Soothsayer, and the Wolf Boss). Tai Lung would have been completely alone on the top and with the quest that was his entire life essentially over.
Him being sympathetic was intentional, but they apparently didn't intend it to be as deep and overpowering as it was for so many. Which is why it sucks that they gave Tai Lung the fate they did; since he didn't, in fact, get to claim his power the way Shen did, and he has legitimate reasons for us to sympathize with him unlike Shen, it hardly seems fair that they both get killed. The fact the filmmakers say Tai Lung refusing to accept Po's explanation of the scroll's meaning was his Last-Second Chance and him refusing it means he can never have a Heel-Face Turn...doesn't bode well at all, suggesting they will either leave his fate unexplained or, if he does appear in the series or a later sequel, he will still be a villain. Thus making him flat, one-note, and losing all the dramatic potential such a storyline would hold. After the way he was defeated by Po, he does in fact have a chance to prove he isn't Shen, to reconnect with his father, find a meaning and purpose in life beyond fighting (or at least to give the fighting a purpose—protecting others, as kung fu is meant for). But they won't give him that, because of course villains are always bad and should never be allowed to change. For a company set on making movies that are Darker and Edgier, more adult and complex, it seems odd and disappointing they wouldn't address this issue. Do they think kids can't handle the idea of a bad guy becoming good?
Technically Tai Lung had multiple chances to stop what he was doing, all of which were rejected for various reasons that are argued or mentioned elsewhere. He heads for the Valley of Peace rather than simply disappearing after breaking out of prison (personally that's what I would've done, though I'd prefer to avoid prison in the first place). Later he defeats the Furious Five, the best Shifu has trained, at the same time. I'm curious as to whether or not he knew Tigress was his sister, but that's another topic altogether. He has basically proved himself as the best to everyone else, but apparently not himself. He could have stopped there with his "I'm the best warrior ever" reputation intact. He then faces off against Shifu, his father, and wins. He even gets an apology and recognition for his accomplishments from Shifu, something Tigress never got. There was actually a point where it looks like Tai Lung had calmed down, then it was back to "Where's my scroll?". He would have killed Shifu if Po had not shown up. Tai Lung eventually gets the scroll, doesn't understand its meaning, and promptly takes out his frustration on Po and gets humiliated. Even after that he tries to attack Po again. Granted that last one was pathetic, but it shows that Tai Lung had very little intention of stopping. In the end, Tai Lung is going to need some serious character development to be redeemable, assuming the cat is still alive.
Sure, but as has been pointed out multiple times up above, if Tai Lung either couldn't see what he was doing was wrong, ignored it because he thought he'd been promised the scroll or believed he had to have it in order to make Shifu proud of him (we never see or hear anything from him to suggest he was just greedy for power, or if he was what exactly he intended to do with the power once he had it), or was too arrogant/enraged/selfish to stop what he was doing, make amends, realize what good things he did have or could have, etc....this is as much Shifu's fault as it is Tai Lung's for raising him as he did. And of course, if Tai Lung were still alive and the possibility of redemption was broached, he would have to develop greatly as a character to achieve it. No one is denying that, in fact everyone who is defending Tai Lung is doing so because they clearly know how complex, painful, and meaningful such a process would be, and that's why they want to see it. So Dream Works is avoiding it because...they don't feel they can do such a character arc justice? They think it's too hard, too much work? They think no one cares or would want to see it? (Don't see how that could be the reason, since not only are there clearly lots of people interested in Tai Lung's fate and character, but the directors know people were finding him sympathetic, which is the perfect lead-in to such a plot.) They only want to focus on Po because he is their hero and Chosen One? They just don't think Tai Lung can be redeemed so why bother? You can see why most of these possible explanations could make people not particularly pleased with the writers' choices.
Okay, since the sequel establishes that Lord Shen killed most of the Giant Pandas and the rest are living in hiding, wouldn't that mean that seeing a Panda out and about would be a big deal? Yet the citizens of the Valley of Peace don't even give Po a second glance. Granted, Po is in his twenties/thirties when the films begin, but still.
The Valley is some way away from Gongmen city. Maybe by the time the news had arrived people were already like, hey there's Ping's son Po and didn't put two and two together...or something...Anyway, even if he were to find out about Po, I doubt Shen would ever have tried anything with Oogway around. He didn't attack Thundering Rhino until he had the cannon(s) ready to go and Oogway was a master among masters.
Maybe the Pandas never really had all that great of numbers to begin with. Maybe they didn't leave their villages all that often. Maybe Panda trade routes never really intersected with the Valley of Peace. All these reasons could explain how people of the village could simply write him off as an anomaly, and not equate him as the last survivor of his race. For all we know, the Valley of Peace's first experience with pandas could be through Po.
So...exactly how old is Shen supposed to be? When we first see him in his factory...thing, he says "I've waited thirty years for this..." What in the name of Flying Rhino does that even mean? Thirty years since when? If he's referring to his lifespan, that would mean he was thirty; but the context is that he's been waiting thirty years to take over China, so unless baby Shen was plotting world domination that guess is out. If he's talking about when he was exiled, he was probably between his teen years and his twenties - twenties are more likely since he could command an entire army and go into battle as well to kill all the pandas, but that would place him in his fifties. While it is possible, it just doesn't...seem...right. That, and if he is counting from his exile, that would put Po at his thirties...
I didn't pick up on the "thirty year" time span until my second viewing. During his first meeting with Po, at one point Shen remarks that Po's had "thirty years to plot his revenge". The only revenge Shen would think Po could be after is the killing of his species. Since Shen's parents banished him for doing this almost immediately afterward, we can assume that's how long he's been living in exile. He was already an adult when this happened, so he's definitely over thirty, though by how much is unclear. And since Po was just a baby back then, that would make him thirty years old now at the very least.
It seems they're avoiding the improbable age thing, all the characters seem to be over twenty five (Tigress is about twenty seven to thirty).
EDITED: Tigress is probably a bit younger. At the time of the first film she cannot be much older than twenty, because she was adopted after Tai Lung lost it twenty years ago, and she looked very young in both "Secrets of Furious Five" and her flashback, only about the same size as baby Tai Lung, so probably no more than five years old (and it's not very likely that Shifu picked her from the orphanage immediately after Tai Lung's rampage). By the second film, several years have passed (because Tigress mentions that the length of her training is twenty years - again, she obviously couldn't have started training before Tai Lung was sent to prison, Tai Lung was in prison for twenty years, and she was several years old when she was adopted, so several of those twenty years of training should have been the years between films). Another indicator of the large time gap between films is the fact, that Po doesn't seem to personally remember Tai Lung's rampage, so it must have happened before or soon after he was adopted by Ping. As Po was adopted thirty years before the events of KFP 2, and Tai Lung was in prison for twenty years, as many as nine to ten years ought to have passed between the two films. Therefore Tigress might have been adopted halfway through Tai Lung's imprisonment and is less than twenty years old during KFP 1. However, this is not set in stone, as Tigress might have referred to the particular type of training, instead of the entire length of her apprenticeship under Shifu (indeed, we know from Secrets of the Furious Five that her initial training was the exact opposite to building up strength and endurance), so you might add another year or two. Not also, that as all time spans seem to be unusually round - and they all are mentioned with emphasis on the length of time the character suffered/trained/waited - it is most likely that characters round them up. As about Crane, Viper and Mantis. they all are almost certainly older than Tigress. They all have found their ways into Shifu's elite crew due to becoming accomplished kung fu warriors on their own, with Mantis already being a renowned master before joining the Five (and actually looking middle-aged in the films), while Crane/Viper started their actual kung fu careers in late teens at the earliest. Hard to tell about Monkey. Po is more than thirty in the second movie and no more twenty two - twenty three in the first. Tai Lung is forty (and now close to fifty, if he's alive), give or take a few years, depending on how fast he trained, might be biologically younger, due to the effects of the restraining shell. Shen is around fifty (thirty years of exile + his youth), maybe a bit younger, again, depending on how much of a prodigy he was. And the Wolf Boss should be around the same age as Shen.
Why is it that Mantis is refered to as a He-Man Woman Hater when he seems to work perfectly fine and respect both Viper and Tigress?
Well, if any guy believed that most women want to bite his head off, I wouldn't blame him for being a He-Man Woman Hater. But... Mantis apparently sees that as the mark of a good family woman. By all accounts, it doesn't make sense.
Why didn't Oogway just give Tai Lung the scroll and explain the lesson of self-worth? It was, apparently, the only thing he was missing from his training; if Oogway knew that Tai Lung and Shifu had been working towards making him into the Dragon Warrior but missed something crucial (like humility and self-esteem?), shouldn't it have been his responsibility as Shifu's master to say "Hey, you're missing the point of excellence of self"? Philosophy and fate and the illusion of control aside, his actions seem fairly arbitrary. Oogway saw a darkness in his heart, but never felt particularly inclined to identify or address it? He just said 'no scroll for you, fuck off'? He couldn't at least have said, "You're awesome at Kung-Fu, but the Dragon Warrior is meant to save the Valley from some horrible threat and there just isn't one right now"? There's a lot about Oogway's actions in the backstory that come off as very questionable, even if the tellers of the tale can't be counted on to explain everything in accurate detail.
I assumed that he couldn't explain the lesson of the scroll. In order to work, it has to be something you figure out for yourself.
Because Tai Lung was a sociopath. Look at how he reacted to being denied the scroll in the first place, he went on a rampage so horrific it got him imprisoned for decades. He probably wouldn't have listened if Oogway tried to explain it, he would've gone berserk anyway. Oogway seems to be a great judge of character overall, it'd probably be clear to him that Tai Lung wouldn't listen even if he told him. Yes, it was largely Shifu's fault that Tai Lung ended up how he ended up, but if Oogway didn't see Tai Lung's evil before he was denied the scroll, after Tai Lung goes on a horrible rampage, it's obvious he's not going to listen to reason at all. The simple fact was Tai Lung was clearly mentally unstable and violent. At best, being told the Dragon Scroll wasn't what he thought would mentally crush him, at worst, it'd send him on a psychotic rampage even worse than the one he went on before. On top of it, Shifu wasn't just Tai Lung's master, he was his father, Oogway could advise Shifu, but he was in no position to force Shifu to do anything when it came to Tai Lung because it'd be overstepping Shifu's right to raise his child. On top of that, we can't be sure that Oogway saw how Tai Lung was being raised, so he might have been in no position to do anything abut it for a number of reasons.
Tai Lung was not a sociopath. A sociopath would have tried to manipulate his way into getting the scroll after being denied it despite mastering all the kung fu there is. He might be crazy, but he put his entire life into Kung Fu and seeking validation through its mastery, because Shifu taught him that was what was important: you are the Dragon Warrior, and so you are a worthwhile person. And then Oogway just denies him the scroll, but doesn't explain himself, so what does a guy with literally zero self-worth outside of martial arts do when the wisest creature in his world says "No, you suck", and his own father doesn't protest and therefore endorses that assessment? Oogway should have known that denying Tai Lung the scroll would go poorly, and we already know that Oogway IS in a position to influence Shifu's students: he does it with Po. He's Shifu's master and the ruler of the Jade Palace and the founder of kung fu. Even if he knew that Tai Lung wouldn't take the news well, he could have done better than just turning his back on him, instead of actually explaining anything about his decision. How hard would it have been, to just tell him, "Your training is incomplete, and you aren't ready for the scroll?", or even, "The Dragon Scroll isn't a prize; it's a relic of prophecy and it isn't meant for you". Oogway didn't just deny him a scroll, he completely denounced a young man's entire life with no explanation; Shifu says that obeying his master was the right thing to do, but Oogway wasn't Tai Lung's master, and Shifu clearly didn't understand either, he just put his head down and didn't have anything to tell him. Oogway just walks off and doesn't do anything to help the situation until his own life is threatened.
Thing is, we don't really know how things leading to Tai Lung's rampage unfolded. Tai Lung's flashback cannot be truly relied upon for obvious reasons, and Master Tigress is not even a witness of the events. That Tai Lung started wrecking shit in the Valley of Peace, instead of going right after the scroll very strongly suggests that he flew off the handle suddenly (fics that insert some last-straw provocation there might have a point) and unexpectedly - even for himself. The rampage was pointless in terms of seizing the Dragon Scroll, on the contrary, it actively reduced Tai Lung's chances. Note, he completely ignored the village upon his return, going straight for the temple. Tai Lung normally - when not in sight of the Dragon Scroll - is pretty smart and composed. I think, Oogway predicted that Tai Lung will react badly, and quite possibly try to take the scroll by force, but failed to predict the extent of his outburst, because such rage was uncharacteristic for Tai Lung. Oogway most likely expected that if explanations won't work (and again, we don't know, how Oogway presented his refusal), Tai Lung will just challenge him to a duel, which he will win, and after which Tai Lung can be goaded towards a less self-destructive path using the old "you lost because you lack this quality, now go to obtain it" bait. In addition, it seems Tai Lung just wasn't close or emotionally attached to Oogway (he didn't care when he saw Oogway's staff in the Hall of Heroes and realized that the turtle is dead), and therefore wasn't inclined to accept unpleasant truths from him.
Agree 100%. One bit of food for thought: the reason the rampage in the village doesn't seem to fit or make sense for someone whose goal was just to claim the scroll may be a result of Tai Lung being found too sympathetic by audiences. In the DVD commentary, the directors admitted that people were feeling so sympathetic for Tai Lung they had forgotten he was the villain, so they inserted the rampage to remind people how and why he was bad. The mistake they made is that because of this insertion not being part of the original script, the event itself no longer makes sense in-universe, requiring us to figure out why he would go on a rampage, then come back up to get the scroll. There are really only two explanations: he really was that enraged and maddened as to go on a slaughter before gaining the thing he craved (undermined by him being cool, calm, and smart for most of the movie, and him ignoring the village when he comes for the scroll at the end); or something set him off...which just gives people more reason to sympathize. Either way, Dream Works shot themselves in the foot.
It boils down to the fact that telling him the lesson or not telling him the lesson doesn't help him actually understand the point of the lesson. Given that Oogway spends the vast majority of his time trying to teach Shifu (and by proxy, Tai Lung and Tigress) the same lesson in various ways, he may very well have been trying to impress the idea that Tai Lung didn't need the Scroll to be the Dragon Warrior. Would telling Tai Lung that he's not ready yet - or in Tai Lung's eyes, that he wasn't good enough/he was flawed/etc etc - really have taught him the lesson any better? Would Tai Lung really have taken those sorts of statements any better? Would Shifu have understood either at that point? That's what Oogway was looking for and what motivated him to eventually move on; in order for Oogway to find his successor before he passed, he had to pass in order for Shifu (his successor) to understand that Shifu was indeed his successor... he just needed to realize that that sort of wisdom and insight was already there.
The real question is why Oogway thought "believe in yourself" was an idea he needed to hide away in the first place. Everyone, including him, acts like the Dragon Scroll is some kind of magic talisman that can make people better at Kung Fu but it really isn't. In fact, Oogway treating it like a mystical force instead of a life lesson actually made people less likely to believe they can make themselves great when there's a scroll that can do that for them not far away. Tai Lung's whole rampage is the result of him trying to seize power, not a philosophical idea.
Ah, but is it really that Oogway acts like it's a magic talisman, or is it just that everyone else assumes that and he doesn't bother to dissuade them? Remember, he's the only one that knows what's in it. He never says that the scroll is a secret that enables amazing Kung Fu... just that it's to be read by the Dragon Warrior. The scroll is given to the Dragon Warrior because the Dragon Warrior is the one who will understand its message... having the scroll doesn't make you the Dragon Warrior. They made this point rather elegantly by the fact that when Po sees it, he gets the message immediately, unlike Tai Lung who's just absolutely confused.
Which is the point. Oogway may have felt that trying to explain the lesson undermines it, and he may be right that people wouldn't believe or value the answer if they don't discover it on their own, but if not bothering to dissuade people from thinking the scroll was a magic talisman that makes one the Dragon Warrior is why first Shifu, then Tai Lung, and even Tigress and the rest of the Five to some extent kept trying to learn and do everything they could to claim it, wouldn't preventing this misunderstanding and the likely tragic consequences of it override teaching a philosophical lesson? Po got it when he was told it, in a different form, by Ping (and not immediately, he initially thought it was blank and worthless too and that Oogway was crazy); Shifu may not have understood it at the time but he seems to get it after Po demonstrates his understanding; and while Tai Lung obviously doesn't get it now, if Oogway had stepped in and explained the lesson when he was a cub, before Shifu and his flawed understanding got a chance to corrupt Tai Lung's thinking, all this could have been avoided.
Okay, so Tigress explains to Po that she doesn't feel any pain, right? But if you look closely in the scene where Po and the Five are heading towards Shen's tower and they all have handcuffs on, Tigress whispers a hardly audible "ouch", due to the pain of the handcuffs. What's with that?
Only saw the film once, so I might have missed something, but I think she meant her hands were unable to feel pain, not her entire body.
I don't think that quite answers the question. After all, aren't her hands where the cuffs are?
Logically, she meant her paws when she said "now I feel nothing", wording was just deliberately ambiguous to set up the dialogue during the confrontation with Po in prison.
Well, it's her arms too, if you remember the scene where Po punches her in the arm after commenting on how "hard-core" she is.
They're acupuncture cuffs. Assuming Tigress was speaking literally, her hands have probably been desensitized to the force of impacts, not piercings.
Don't get me wrong, I love the movie, and the fights were great; but I always found the villain's defeat kinda lame... I mean, what's up with the Badass Decay of Tai Lung in the last fight? In all his previous scenes he totally outclassed everyone (all the rhino guards, the Furious Five, his master), yet he has no chance against a fat panda with little to no training (at least compared to his level of training)? The first part is fine, since Tai Lung was obsessed with the scroll, but when he focused on killing Po and saw that his Pressure Point technique didn't work, shouldn't he be able to finish his opponent in a bazillion other methods?
Consider what kind of effort the two of them had put in prior to their fights: Po had to climb a flight of stairs. Tai Lung had to cross however much distance, after fighting off the Furious Five, climb those same stairs, fight Shifu, and chase Po all over town while getting sat on intermittently by a very fat panda. Tai Lung was coming at it from something of a long exertion disadvantage, even if he was better able to handle it than Po would have been. Also, at least two of the direct hits he takes? Are his own. Possibly as a set up to the second movie, Po naturally reflects some of Tai Lung's strikes, and chances are, Tai Lung is the only person who can really hurt Tai Lung with a direct strike. By the time the end of that fight rolled around, he'd taken a lot of his own punishment.
Because Kung Fu Panda subscribes to the old martial arts trope of enlightenment and inner strength being more important than physical strength. Note, that generally it just means that Right Makes Might, giving a good guy a timely power-up (see Kung Fu Hustle for a deliberately blatant and over-the-top example). But Kung Fu Panda actually uses this trope in a more thoughtful fashion (I would have said deconstructs it, had Deconstruction not actually meant "Grimderp" nowadays) - good guys can end up on the receiving end of it. For the most glaring example, see how far Po's skills degrade in the sequel, when he allows his old trauma to dominate him - Tigress, who lost to Tai Lung, both when it was one-on-one and five-on-one, wipes the floor with him without even trying. The Five and Shifu got beaten by Tai Lung for similar reasons. Anyway, before the final battle Tai Lung is utterly mentally crushed by the revelation of the Dragon Scroll. I actually believe, that he got the meaning, at least after Po, explained it to him. Tai Lung is not exactly dense. And this meant that Tai Lung slammed headfirst in the facts that his decades in jail were for nothing; his betrayal of Shifu AND rejection of Shifu's attempt to make amends just minutes ago were for nothing; he's not ever going to set things right and become the hero the way he wanted to by proving that he can master the secret of the Dragon Scroll and Oogway was mistaken (DVD commentary notes that Tai Lung secretly hoped so); his entire goal in life was wrong; and, to add insult to injury, some friggin fat panda from nowhere has better understanding of kung fu mysteries than him! Tai Lung cannot contest this truth, but he also cannot bear it. His attack is a furious denial expressed with kung fu. Of course he gets owned. Had he been able to keep enough cool to do more than blindly rush at Po, he wouldn't attack in the first place.
In short, he lacks the self-control - the discipline - necessary to be a true master and lacks the confidence at that point. He's trying to win, to prove that he's right. Po already believes he can/will win and is simply trying to fight.
Okay, in part one Tai Lung curb-stomps the furious five all at once. Then Po curb-stomps Tai Lung in single combat. In part two when Po fights Tigress (meaning the legitimate fight in the prison, not the sparring they did on the boat), Tigress curb-stomps Po... Umm... What?
Po didn't beat Tai Lung because he was simply stronger, but because Tai Lung's main technique didn't work on him. Which was the whole point of the film.
See second answer to the headscratcher directly above.
It wasn't an actual fight or anything, but Tigress didn't seem to want to hurt him and vice versa. She was just trying to protect him. Major Ship Tease moment here, if you read between the lines.
Anybody else noticed how Tai Lung never actually throws the first punch? Maybe it's just me, but in every fight starting from his escape, he doesn't seem to throw the first punch, unless he has a good reason anyway. When he breaks free in the prison, they start shooting huge arrows at him, then hundreds of normal arrows at once, and then all rhinos start coming at him in order to take him down, and he fights back (granted, they were doing their jobs, but still). When he rushes across the bridge, it's cut down, Tigress kicks him in the chin, and then she attacks him after he taunts them. When he arrives at the Valley, he leaves everybody alone, going straight to the palace instead of going on a rampage again. At the palace, he actually just talks to Shifu instead of attacking, and the fight doesn't start until Shifu makes it plain and clear that if Tai Lung wants the scroll, they have to fight. Finally, Po arrives and challenges Tai Lung, taunting him by showing him the scroll, which makes Tai Lung go for it. Honestly, the one time Tai Lung attacks without any provocation is when he sees the blank scroll, which is also when his dreams are shattered and his whole world crumbles around him, and one could still argue that the fight was not actually over.
Considering he obviously intended to hurt people anyway, I think it was justified.
Obviously? Hardly. He wouldn't have attacked the Five if they hadn't been in his way, he only went for Po when he saw he had the scroll, and when he came to the palace to face Shifu he completely ignored the town and the evacuating villagers (who as we saw later were not even completely out of the Valley when the fight ended). Even Shifu, despite the bad blood between them, was treated courteously if coolly until he denied Tai Lung again (as his son as well as of the scroll); the only ones he "obviously" meant to hurt were the rhino guards, and it would have been pretty hard to escape without hurting at least some of them.
He's a dangerous criminal who broke out of prison. The rhinos were the prison guards, and Shifu/the Furious Five are like law enforcement, in a sense.
Shen's knifes. I can never seem to figure out how they work. How does he conceal them so easily without them falling out of his robes? If they're strapped to his body, how is he able to throw them without actually touching them? And if they're hidden under his tail, like my brothers guessed, how does he, well, you know, throw them? And also HOW THE HELL DID HE FIT AN ENTIRE ONE METER SWORD IN THERE?!
It seems like they're stuck where his feathers would be, and he throws them just by flinging his arm.
They're peacock sword feathers?
Why not just kill Tai Lung? Seriously, why bother keeping him locked up, far, far away, in a specially built prison that was carved out of a mountain, manned by a thousand strong army of Rhino guards, and kept trapped in an elaborate turtle themed box, possibly with special magic/chi suppression built in, shacked with enough metal to chains to have served as a anchors for a small fleet, and on top of that, traps, SIEGE weapon stations, and a self destruct system that looks like its supposed to cave the entire complex in and bring the mountain crashing down.
Something as simple as a humble noodle vendor slitting Tai Lung's throat while Tai Lung was paralyzed would have solved many problems.
Oogway might've been a pacifist. Or, most likely, it could've been Shifu's doing. After all, Shifu saw Tai Lung as a son, and he felt responsible for the way Tai Lung ended up. (you know, getting his hopes up and all)
Taking the theory a few headscratchers above that says that the rampage was added in after people found Tai Lung too sympathetic and they didn't shift the rest of the story to compensate offers another explanation. In the original, i.e. before the rampage was added, Tai Lung's crime would have been trying to take the scroll by force and striking his master/father. A bad crime, enough to warrant a lengthy prison sentence, but not bad enough to get Tai Lung executed. Well, obviously, they couldn't kill somebody who didn't deserve it, but Tai Lung would break out of any normal prison easily. Thus, Chor Gom was built to house him. Once the rampage was added in, Tai Lung's crimes become bad enough to warrant execution, but like the attempted theft of the dragon scroll, they didn't adjust the rest of the story to account for the rampage, leading to the headscratcher.
Or, y'know, it's just a common trope of Chinese martial arts films, which Kung Fu Panda is done in the spirit of. Having a martial arts master who went bad and committed a bunch of crimes chained up in prison instead of just getting executed is a pretty standard plot point. Heck, the major deviation is that Po didn't visit him in prison and learn some of his techniques before Tai Lung's eventual escape and their final confrontation.
Who pays for things like far away, tricked out mountain prisons and its upkeep along with the salary of a thousand guards?
Tai Lung's personal prison looks like very expensive real estate so SOMEONE has got to be paying for it. No one in the Kung Fu Panda world so far looks like they have pockets deep enough, or interests common enough, to toss the kind of money away.
The people who usually pay for that sort of thing: the government. Sure, the prison must be extremely expensive for just one prisoner, but that prisoner IS Tai Lung.
Oogway is a thousand years old, the inventor of kung fu, and highly respected, and therefore likely can call upon favors from the Emperor. Add to this Tai Lung's rampage and how skilled he was, thus requiring such expensive facilities to hold and punish him, and it becomes clear—not only would the Emperor want to help out Oogway, paying for Tai Lung's imprisonment would protect the people of the Valley and the empire, too.
How the heck baby Po go from drifting in a basket of radishes to being found in the back of Ping's noodle shop? That shop does not look like it is anywhere near the docks.
It doesn't have to be near a dock. There are such things as carts and wagons. Po is not the only person that can use one. As Mr. Ping seems to expect regular deliveries, he hired somebody to deliver the crates of food he needed. That is how Po got to Mr. Ping's in the first place.
The basket was never placed in the water, it's likely that the crates were delivered.
Was I the only one who found the way masters Storming Ox and Croc acted in a half of this movie slightly... illogical? They stayed in the cell and did not want to upset Shen and make him turn the cannons to the city - yet were perfectly all right with letting the heroes go alone and do precisely that anyway. Wouldn't it have been better for them to come along just to give the best odds on victory? And later, when Tigress left Po to the jail with them, they apparently did not even try to keep him safe like she said, allowing him to go right away back to the fray even despite the fact that the last time he messed up things pretty badly - and indeed, this time even more so. Did he have another inspiring speech for them? I would have liked to see it, to be honest: this way it seemed just random.
The truth is that Storming Ox and Croc could easily be absent from the movie and it wouldn't lose much...
Bear in mind that they saw the cannon in operation far sooner than the others did, and they actually saw it kill one of the greatest Masters in China. They were so demoralized that they were willing to stay in their cell rather than risk that fate for themselves. As for not stopping the others, it seems that with Shen's focus being on the Panda, they aren't worried about being connected to them as there are two outcomes to that: Either Shen assumes that the Five and Po never found them in the prison, or he assumes that they pointed Po and the others in the direction of Shen's revenge. Either way, Shen gets Po delivered to him, so what's the harm?
What time of the year does the second movie take place? On one hand, when Shen says "The Year of the Peacock has begun", the Wolf Boss replies "You mean right now? Because it's the middle of the year". On the other hand, Po and the Furious Five disguise themselves as a dragon dance puppet, which, as far as I know, is normally used at Chinese New Year celebrations.
Yes, Shen is just being hammy as usual. However, the contradiction still stands between the Wolf Boss's comment and the Chinese New Year decorations with the dragon puppet. Unless the decorations and the puppet are for a different holiday, that is indeed in the middle of the year.
The beginning states that Shen's parents were masters of artistic fireworks. The city most likely exported them, and expanded to New Year celebrations in general. Meaning they can't wait till right before New Year's to make millions of high-quality fireworks and dragons.
So why at the start of the film do any of the Furious Five who arent Tigress really think there is any chance they will become the Dragon Warrior?? When Po is in Crane's room at the end of that day, Crane says he's had a long and "disappointing day", the only disappointment that it can refer to is the disappointment of not being named Dragon Warrior. Yet it is quite clear from the start that Tigress is head and shoulders above the other members, a fact re-enforced repeatedly throughout each movie and the TV series (I'd say culminating in the second film when she confronts Po about not getting Shen and the other members of the five watch impotently but that's by the by). No one seems to suggest that Viper, Monkey, Crane or Mantis would be suitable for being Dragon Warrior, in fact the opinions expressed are that if Po hadn't arrived, Tigress have become Dragon Warrior, yet I go back to Crane's disappointment. What was going on??
The only disappointment isn't that he wasn't the Dragon Warrior. Maybe he was disappointed that Tigress didn't get it, or that Po did. Imagine one of your friends, one of your dearest, closest friends, has worked her whole life for something, you expect her to get it, and just when she's about to, some jackass who obviously doesn't deserve the honor steals it out from under her. Wouldn't you be disappointed? Or if, say, a Michael Bay movie gets Best Picture at the Oscars instead of something by Scorsese or Spielberg?
Well I think the point I was trying to make has been slightly missed there. I'm not trying to discuss the facets of Crane's disappointment in itself. But first, I can understand the notion of being disappointed a team mate doesn't get something, but, for Crane to be disappointed for Tigress would, in my opinion, require a level of friendship we simply didn't see between them. In fact the only memorable interaction between Crane and Tigress at all that I can remember is from the second film, where after she hugged Po and told him she couldn't watch her friend die, Crane asks if she couldn't bear to watch him die, she doesn't break stride as she walks past and in her normal coldish/stand offish tone (i.e. not a warm, friendly joke) said "stop being a wimp". However, what brings me more to my original point is if Crane is indeed disappointed that one of the others doesn't get the Dragon Warrior, then why is he so? Because like I say, the notion that any of the Five except for Tigress becoming the Dragon Warrior is clearly a fancy thought, nothing more. So I'm asking, did Crane, or any of the other members (apart from Tigress), think they or one of their teammates could actually become the DW? Did Mantis think Viper stood a chance for example? etc. and if they did, why??
While Tigress was clearly the front runner, the fact that nobody had been chosen yet could easily be taken to mean they were all candidates who could have gotten it. And as was said, it doesn't have to be personal disappointment that Crane didn't get it—it can just be disappointment that Po did get it.
Listening to the commentary on the film, Tigress was actually about to be named Dragon Warrior before Po arrived.
And that's irrelevant. The Furious Five clearly did not know that, or else there would have been no point to all the fuss about Master Oogway finally picking someone.
It's not irrelevant, it informs the general discussion as it is a piece of information which confirms who would have become Dragon Warrior if Po hadn't have shown up. By confirming it as Tigress, it also backs up the original point that Tigress was head and shoulders above the other members of the Five (she was, and would have become it in the normal course of events). Which leads back to the original question, did any of the other four members of the Five genuinely think they stood a chance of becoming the Dragon Warrior and if so, why? This is a genuine question, did Monkey, Mantis, Viper, Crane think they possessed something which stood them in good standing to become the Dragon warrior?
Yes, they did. Tigress might have been the front runner but, once again, the rest of the Five did not know she would get it. They can't read Master Oogway's mind, and Master Oogway is all mysterious and aloof, doing seemingly odd things for reasons of his own. Just because Tigress was the strongest of the warriors doesn't mean that Oogway was going to pick her. And, in the end, he didn't.
You know who else thought skill in kung fu was all that mattered in choosing the Dragon Warrior? Tai Lung. And we all know how that went.
As an aside, if a Michael Bay film won best picture over something by Spielberg or Scorsese, I'd probably throw a party and not stop laughing for days. And maybe actually start watching the Oscars again.