Anyone else bothered that Superman just outright killed Metallo?
Not anymore than I am by him "killing" Ace. They're robots. Being decapitated doesn't kill them.
Why does Batman have loads of contingency plans aimed at his own allies, but apparently has next to none aimed at the villains, who are already "rogue threats to humanity?" If Batman were as obsessive about preparing for the day Mirror Master or Bane show up at Wayne Manor, Savage's plot wouldn't have gotten started. (Granted, i suppose this makes it a Necessary Weasel.)
Batman does have a plan for dealing with the villains: It's called him, and every other hero on the planet. He doesn't need a special contingency plan for those because that's his regular job.
How did Vandal Savage know who Batman was? I don't think he's even known who Batman was in any story.
In Tower of Babel, it's R'as al-Ghul who takes out the League, so they probably just kept that plot point for the purpose of convenience. Besides, he's an immortal supergenius, so the vast majority of people wouldn't question it.
Bane knows Batman's identity (except in some adaptations). Maybe Savage's plan was just "pretend to steal something very valuable for Batman to take him off-guard" and Bane knew exactly what.
This is after Bane "broke the Bat", remember—so it might well be known to Savage that Bane knew who Batman really was, if Savage didn't know himself. Savage's plan for Batman may have simply amounted to, "Let the guy who broke Batman's back figure something out."
If the average speed of the earth through space is somewhere around 67,000 mph, what was the worry about the flare? Wouldn't GL delaying the flare give the Earth enough time to simply get out of the way?
It's safer to assume Vandal Savaged timed the flare as he's taking into account the 8 or so minutes the flare would take to reach the earth at the speed of light. A bigger headscratcher is how fast Superman is since he pursues the missile all the way to the sun AND makes it back to earth with the whole 8 minutes window intact. Suspending disbelief a bit; it's not a problem of science but ethics; yes they could let the flare just "barely" scorch the Earth, but they are heroes, they have to look for the solution where no person gets maimed or killed and that's what they do. It bothers me more that we are shown the warhead having several missiles in it; and just one is powerful enough to trigger a solar flare strong enough to get the results Savage wanted; I was left wondering if the full missile payload would have incinerated the whole planet.
Considering Savage's plan wasn't just to create a solar flare using missiles, but also use the original rocket to create an electromagnetic path for the flare to follow towards Earth, it makes sense. It's also a good thing he made a device to make his base intangible, since by that logic the Hall of Doom would have been ground zero for the end of the world.
What confuses me is how the missile reached the sun so quickly. If it takes LIGHT over 8 minutes to get from the Sun to the Earth, shouldn't that missile have taken centuries to make it from Earth to the Sun?
Superman is clearly at pre-Crisis levels in this movie. Not only is he faster than light, but he's not kidding when he suggests that he might simply move the Earth out of the way of the flare.
Well since the DC Universe is set 20 minutes into the future, its likely he had some lightspeed technology, the only problem is that how Superman manage to chase it, I know Superman is faster than a speeding bullet, but their is a difference from supersonic to LIGHTSPEED!
Superman is obviously moving as fast as or faster than lightspeed, as made clear several times on this page. "Faster than a speeding bullet" is irrelevant and simplistic.
This may sound like a rant, but how did the kryptonite bullet penetrate Superman's skin? Shouldn't the bullet have just shattered since he hasn't been exposed to the kryptonite long enough to affect his powers? At least in Superman/Batman: Public Enemies, one could argue that because he was exposed to Metallo's kryptonite battery for a period of several minutes, the bullet could work. But in this film, Metallo doesn't expose Superman to his kryptonite battery until after he's shot, so how did it work?
In some of the comics, kryptonite has much of the same toughness as Superman himself, as a result of undergoing whatever process caused Superman to gain his powers. I have no idea whether or not it applies here, but it's a suggestion.
Kryptonite bullets always penetrate Superman's skin, regardless of continuity. It doesn't just affect his powers, its outright poisonous to him, and it never takes long for the powers to be affected anyway. Its always instant.
Batman's contingency plans were made in case the Justice League went evil or were mind controlled. But the plans all involved the heroes either being good or putting innocent lives in danger. For example, the plan against Flash wouldn't work unless he was noble enough to risk getting caught in a trap. And the plan against GL was specifically targeted toward his guilt. So wouldn't this mean that the plans were not in case the League went evil, but simply so that it would be more convenient for Batman if HE decided to go evil? Well remember Batman said the plans were meant to immobilized them not kill, so Savage probably tweak the plans a bit.
Well, since this is Batman we're talking about, I'm assuming he had multiple alternatives for the same base plan, depending on how or why the Leaguer in question turned evil.
Thats a problem in the comic as well; presumably Batman just had a different method of getting to the heroes and both Vandal Savage and Ra's Al Ghul are willing to play dice with the lives of innocent people, and found that easier. The GL thing might play on his guilt even if he turned rogue, or it might just have had a different effect that still sapped his willpower. The bigger problem, which again was in the comics, was that plans themselves were pretty damn evil, like the one against the Flash actually put innocent lives at risk not as part of the implementation, but inherently- if Flash was evil, or Brainwashed and Crazy, he might decide that letting a entire city die just to spite someone is fair trade; the Martian Manhunter's fate was something Batman wouldn't wish on his own worst enemy, while with Wonder Woman the plan required her to beat up scores of innocent people before dying, several hours later, of a painful heart attack.
Yes, these plans all seemed to have been completely based on Batman going rogue and taking out the Justice League, not a member going rogue. If any of the members had actually turned, the ones that were designed to take advantage of their nobility (Superman, Flash, Green Lantern) wouldn't have worked, and getting the others into position for the plan to work depended on them being in their normal state (if Manhunter had become evil, for example, he wouldn't be at a bar accepting drinks from strangers, for example). Only Wonder Woman's plan would have possibly worked on a villainous character.
Batman clearly states that his plans were altered. The plan for the Flash was all about putting a device on wrist that would have forced him to keep running until he was exhausted. Wonder Woman's was all about fighting endless waves of enemies (that could have been robots or something) until she tired out. Some of them would still have been cruel, like burning Martian Manhunter or playing on GL's guilt, but both can be done without hurting others. But all of them can be done without putting innocent people in danger or relying on the hero's goodness.
In most cases, the set-up was the most significant part of the plan. Surely Vandal Savage didn't need to hack the Bat-computer to realize that using Kryptonite on Superman is a good idea, for example?
It's not that easy to make as viable bullet out of a rock, it's possible what was stolen was the method of making the bullet.
In the JLA: Tower Of Babel story this was based on, Wondy was trapped in virtual reality, fighting an endless battle. In fact, all of the countermeasures in that story seem to put less innocents at risk. Incidentally, here's his audio log with the plans, from DCU Online. Note that it also includes him.
Savage's plan involved all electronics more advanced than the steam engine being shut down, so why is Metallo just going along with this? Wouldn't he die if this plan succeeded?
Metallo would have been protected from the EMP by the base being intangible.
How was Superman unable to notice that Metallo... was Metallo? Even without X-Ray vision, with his super senses he should have noticed something was off. And since he was trying to talk the man down, you'd think he'd at least be trying to monitor his vitals, breathing, heart rate and blood pressure to see if he's making any headway.
Two explainations for that: 1) Superman didn't bother to check the guy's vitals, since he knew him, or 2) Metallo could have a system for making it appear that he has a heartbeat or blood pressure.
1) How is it that Lex Luthor doesn't know anything about this? 2) Did Savage always look like Sebastian Shaw?
1) Savage doesn't want Lex to know, so he doesn't- Lex might be smarter than Savage, but Savage is smart enough to render that moot; 2) Yes, Depending on the Artist.
What part of Vandal Savage's plan required the Justice League be alive? If not all of the League at the very least finishing Batman off would have been less than child's play for Bane. Supes was in no position to fight off Metallo, I doubt Wonder Woman could have stopped Cheetah if she'd stood by and waited but maybe she could have, Green Lantern would have been easiliy killed if Star Sapphire had stuck around an extra five minutes or so. Is there any reason aside from villians never finish the job that the Justice League survived this meeting.
It wasn't Hal Jordan they needed to neutralize, it was his power ring. If Hal died, the ring would just find someone else to wield it.
Well, if Savage was smart he would WANT the Justice League around. I mean, sure he is a true immortal but the others could easily incapacitate him and take over his empire. He may have planned to have the JL alive to keep his underlings in line, or simply take them out, leaving the who world for him.
It is possible the answer is 'none of it'. Not actually finishing off Batman there and then might have been Bane's decision (he wanted to break the man...), both Metallo and Cheetah would have been at risk of being stopped by more regular forces if they went for a kill (and both Superman and Wonder Woman were well on their way to dying anyway — if Cyborg hadn't shown up, they both would have died), Martian Manhunter might not have been killable given the available resources and situation, and Vandal Savage may have overestimated just how much Star Sapphire wanted to truly kill Green Lantern (given her implied love/hate relationship in the movie itself and their relationship in the comics).
Also, recall that there was a throwaway line from Savage back at the Hall of Doom after the victory toast where he said that his plan required the Justice League, "out of the way", specifically either dead or incapacitated. From what was seen at the end of the movie his missile launch essentially needed twenty or so minutes of non-interference to go off as he wanted it. After that, whether the League was alive or not really wouldn't have mattered since half the planet was dead. It does become an issue for his post-apocalypse plan though, as any survivors of the League would certainly oppose him out of spite if nothing else.
Really, if anyone is to blame for the failure of the plan, its Savage himself- he should have launched the missle the moment the Justice League were incapacitated (and pull a You Have Outlived Your Usefulness on his minions), but he wanted to offer these criminals a chance to rule the world with him (even though none of them usually go after something like that, and probably wouldn't make very good rulers). Mostly he seemed to just waste time because he was oh-so-confident that his plan would succeed and the other villains would appreciate his genius.
Savage mentions that there's a particular one-hour window where he can launch the missile. He couldn't have launched the minute the League were incapacitated and have the plan still work.
So the plot starts when Vandal Savage buys a piece of tech from Lexcorp that he gives to Mirror Master to use on the computer in the Batcave and steal Batman's secret plans for taking down the Justice League. How did Savage know that these plans even existed in the first place?
It's not crazy for Savage to assume that Batman keeps files on the JL members on his computers. He was probably just trying to find weaknesses, and stumbled upon Batman's contingency plans.
Or, Savage just assumed Batman has secret plans for taking down the Justice League because of his Crazy-Prepared-ness.
Is there a reason why our heroes pair off to fight their villians aside from plot contrivance? (And I mean this not just in this movie but whenever these team ups happen) It seems to me that at the very least Superman fighting Metallo is stupid when Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter are all comparable strength wise and not allergic to green rocks. Any of the four heroes mentioned already can just reach out and bitch slap Bane while Batman does something important like, I dunno, stop a missile launch.
Because then the movie wouldn't be as awesome and no one would watch it.
Every hero knew their own respective Rogues and their weaknesses better than the other heroes. Green Lantern was more experienced at fighting Star Sapphire than Wonder Woman, for instance, so pitting Wonder Woman against Star Sapphire, with such a short time window, would have been way too risky a move.
Given Cheetah's entirely accurate point that Vandal Savage's plan would make her money useless why didn't the Injustice League take him down. Most of them are a tad bit crazy but not kill 3 billion people so I can get better parking crazy. There wasn't a person in that room who couldn't take Vandal one on one and easily at that. He's immortal, unkillable. He doesn't seem to have any other powers and the end of the movie seems to suggest that locking him up and throwing away the key is a viable plan. This whole "you're not leaving us much choice" bs is just that. BS. Any one of them could have stopped him and stopped him with ease. Especially on a plan that had a narrow window but even long term I think Star Sapphire for example could drop him off on the moon and see how long it takes him to figure out how to get back.
The money was worthless, but he was offering them the chance to rule the world as kings and queens, and clearly all of them found that appealing and some moreso than others. Also, they didn't do it just for the money- Ma'alefa'ak had his blood fued with his brother and probably didn't care about money; Bane wanted to get one-up on Batman and cared less about money than that; Mirror Master seemed fanatically devoted to Savage and considered working with him a promotion to the big leagues...At the very least, sure killing Savage is easy, but they had to consider that not everyone in the room would necessarily want Savage dead for that In the event, as it so happens, none of them turned on him anyway, not even when the League showed up. Plus, they might have figured he was smart and resourceful enough to have traps or hidden weapons, or some kind of back-up plan, and they didn't want to push their luck.
Not to mention, depending of how much of the comics backstories are true here, too, Ma'alefa'ak had already instigated a genocide himself, as in the comics, he killed every Green Martian outside of J'onn, himself, and very few others. It's likely he wasn't advserse to being party to another one.
Plus, Savage is NOT easy to kill. He effortlessly took down Cyborg and Cheetah with one blow each, and even the Lasso of Truth seemed to have no effect on him. Combined with the possibility that he had various other pieces of advanced technology laying around in contingency, and it's entirely possible that none of the Injustice League could have beaten him.
Batman's "contingency" for if he goes rogue. Let me get this straight, Batman's plan for if he goes rogue or gets mind-controlled is the Justice League...the very league that we just spent the whole movie showing that Batman can kill/disable them with almost embarrassing ease. Anyone else see the problem here?
"Criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot". Maybe he assumes that if he ever goes evil, then his intelligence will take a dive, as it seems to have done with pretty much all of his once-good enemies. Also, it depends on exactly what kind of "evil" he turns into, and how he turns into it- for instance, whether or not the League notice he has turned evil, whether it was a gradual turning or something sudden, what sort of villainy he goes for (eg. Knight Templar or Omnicidal Maniac), etc.
I think that he meant the League as a whole. Batman can take them down individually, but working together he would stand no chance. Everyone would be covering each other's weaknesses.
And besides, if Batman turned evil, he would already know the plan, and could make countermeasures against it. Honestly, I was surprised everyone was so upset that Batman didn't come up with his own plan when doing so would essentially be pointless. If Batman ever goes rogue, it'll be up to the Justice League. Batman can't do everything.
I have a problem with the age of Vandal Savage. The first time he says: 50000 years (spent gathering money), the second time he says: 80000 years (since he gained immortality). Does that mean that he basically led his people around the world, for like 30000 years having no desire to gather any kind of "shining rocks, that looks pretty"? Or something similiar, or is it implied that he didn't realised the value of items until said time passed? Isn't he supposed to be some kind of genius?
He spent 50K years building up his funds. Before that, he probably didn't have any sort of way to store assets. So those 30000 years could have been spent literally doing anything. Anything at all. Amassing short-term funds, leading people, learning stuff. How is any of this inappropriate for a "genius"?
And on the same note, what does it mean - being a genius caveman?
Quick thinking and adaptability? Foresight and ambition? All of these relevant skills in his past and during the story.
Maybe Bats just thought that if the others didn't see the logic in that immediately, they already had arguments for it, so it wasn't worth bringing up.
Batman flat out states that if the Justice League doesn't understand why plans to stop them need to be in place that he doesn't belong. He doesn't need to mention any specific story since the Justice Lords aren't the only time something has happened. Superman has been mind controlled more times than most of us can count for example. There are a few evil speedsters floating around, the plan to stop Wonder Woman would work on anybody who wouldn't back down from a fight, the plan to stop Green Lantern would (with a few tweaks) work just fine on Sinestro and probably on Star Sapphire. The only plan that doesn't seem likely to work on a similar hero with some minor changes is the plan to take down Batman.
Thats was an alternate continuity. For example, in this one, Cyborg is the first new member they let into the League; in the previous, the film ends with them considering a whole bunch of new members. Different voice actors, slightly different animation, different backstory for the Martian Manhunter etc. Also, it wasn't simply their abilities- it was them, personally, that he had plans against, including attacking them via their particular psychological weaknesses. Some of the plans wouldn't have worked and besides, the Crime Syndicate were not direct Evil Twins- they were different people, with slightly different powers and weaknesses, and histories and capablities (eg. Superwoman wasn't an evil Wonder Woman, but an evil Mary Marvel; Owlman was not an evil Bruce Wayne, but a different man entirely, etc.)
Actually, if you look during the opening of "Doom", you can see some footage from "Crisis on 2 Earths"
Cyborg being the first new members isn't true; during Batman's confession of creating the plans, he said he studied all League members "past and present." This means that there were other members in this universe's League before this movie.
I get why Bane doesn't kill Batman instead of burying him alive. But why didn't he break his back again before putting him in the coffin? Or at least break his arms? Bane knows better than anyone how tough Batman is. Crippling him before burying him would have guaranteed that he wouldn't have been able to escape, that he would die a slow death from suffocation while pinned against his father's corpse while in excruciating pain. Bane isn't the kind of guy who goes for half measures; there is no reason why he wouldn't have done this.
Maybe Bane still hadn't gotten all the Joel Schumaucher out of his system.
Also, Bane spent most of his life in a box - a prison, for the sake of the father he never met. Putting Bruce in a box with his dad would seem like a poetic death. It's also kinda what he did in Rises.
Did anyone find the plan to take out Wonder Woman kinda odd? The idea of it being that Wonder Woman is actually beating up civilians who she sees as Cheetah, but the only civilians who actually attack her are the police, and that was in a different location. Now if you assume that when that first group came up to her, mainly because she was a celebrity, she thought they were attacking her and she responded. But after that first attack, wouldn't the rest of the group run away? Also, this entire plan holds to the idea that Wonder Woman wouldn't just stop and try to figure this out. She is an intelligent woman, surely she would think at some point in the fight "Why are there so many clones of Cheetah? Let's see how many there are" and just fly away.
Considering how one of her major enemies is Circe, this probably happens to her more often than you'd think.
Well, the nanites were messing with her brainstem. Even when she sees "Cheetah" acting out of character, using holograms, and sprouting weapons out of her hand, she still rationalizes it away.
Behold as I use my villainous super-genius to improve the anti-Justice League plans depicted in this film... 1. Wonder Woman: use a deadly poison instead of one that causes hallucinations 2. Green Lantern: use a deadly gas instead of one that causes hallucinations 3. Superman: shoot the Kryptonite bullet at his head 4. Batman: shoot an ordinary bullet at his head 5. Flash: just make the bomb go off immediately and without warning once it's attached to his wrist. I'm just saying they didn't have to be so elaborate, is all.
1) poison wouldn't work on Wonder Woman, those hallucinations were caused by nanobots attached to her brain, not poison. 2) the ring would have found another wielder. 3) its happened, effectively has the same effect. Superman's skull is rather hard 4) Bane did what he did for personal satisfaction. 5) that plan actually seemed pretty solid, no one felt any need to alter it. Besides both savage and mirror master probably found the idea rather amusing.
Why did Superman give Batman the kryptonite bullet? It's touching and all, but he should know full well that Bats would not use a gun. Hell, there was another piece that Cyborg had.
You don't need to use a gun to hurt Superman with kryptonite. You just have to wave it near him.
I figured that the implication was that Batman would carve the bullet (using a laser or something) and embed part of it into a ring. Thus, he'd have the kryptonite ring that he typically has in the comics.
But he already had some kryptonite of his own, making the bullet redundant.
The kryptonite is symbolic: Batman already has kryptonite, sure, but the gesture shows that Superman is willing to trust Batman to take him down if the need arises.