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- The choices of duelling partners in the final stages of The Battle of Hogwarts: particularly how Volders is fighting McGonagall, Sprout and Slughorn, while Bella fights Hermione, Luna, and Ginny. Ok, I get how Bella is weaker than Voldy, and how Hermione, Luna and Ginny are proficient duellers, but it still seems nonsensical that the second-most powerful dueller on Voldy's side (and one of the best duellers on either side) is fighting three kids. It also bothers me that Sprout and Slughorn should be the ones to duel Voldy, alongside McGonagall. As teachers, they clearly are skilled, but they don't even have specialities lying within using magic - Gardening and Cookery. On top of the fact that Slughorn is very very very fat, and all three are bloody old, it seems a bit ridiculous that they should be duelling Voldy, rather than somebody like Flitwick (a former duelling champion!) or Kingsley.
- Um...Kingsley WAS there, Sprout was off duelling someone else, probably throwing her evil plants of death at people. But I see your point, Bellatrix seems a little too strong to just fight three girls barely of age. But, by this point she's frickin' insane, she was probably too wound up and crazy to fight effectively, whereas Voldy was still keeping his head.
- As for their physical conditions, I think those should mean very little for wizards and such (case in point: Yoda). Not to mention that you could hardly speak about "choice of duelling partners" in such situation. It's a fight, it's chaotic. You fight whomever you've got pinned against. Naturally, all the best fighters available piled on V as the most dangerous opponent, so Bella got the rest (We don't know how many opponents she went through before ending in a stalemate against the girls).
- Not to mention, Voldemort was born in 1926, making him 71 when he died. He's not exactly young, either. Wait... then how old is Slughorn?
- Plus, Bellatrix is a sadistic, malicious bitch who loves watching other people see their loved ones die. Why wouldn't she deliberately go after the youngest, most vulnerable targets she can find, eager for easy kills that'll demoralize the others?
- I think that the author made a poor choice of words in referring to the fights as "duels." In Watsonian terms, the final battle wasn't a series of duels, it was a desperate, chaotic close-in firefight. It's hard to imagine that anyone would have had a choice of who they would be fighting.
- It bugs me that Lucius Malfoy gets redemption because he loves his son and wife. I know, I know, he might have been sent off to jail at the end of book 7 off screen, but my point is that he was PRESENTED in a very positive light in the 7th book, despite all the horrible things he has done in the past and his former high-ranked Death Eater position. This is pretty much applied to all the Malfoys, but I really only have issue with Lucius because really, Draco is pretty much a stupid kid and Narcissa wasn't an active Death Eater and we don't have any proof that she really did anything, while we know for sure about Lucius being a devoted Death Eater and we know at least that he used to arrange "torture Muggles" nights. With all due respect to the sincere love of Lucius to his family, I'm sure a lot of Nazis, other racist murderers, mass murderers, just regular murderers, terrorists, mafiosos, rapists, etc. loved their family – it still doesn't excuse what they have done.
- It was confirmed that the Malfoys "weaseled their way" out of Azkaban AGAIN (surprise surprise), so Lucius really never suffers the full consequences for his actions. However, that makes him and his family pretty believable - the survivors who can worm their way out of anything. Fair? Who knows. Happens in real life? Heck yeah.
- Remember that Lucius is the only Death Eater shown to give even a fraction of a damn about anyone at all, so, whilst not completely absolving him, he certainly is a hell of a lot better than any of the others.
- I don't know that he was presented in a positive light, just a less-negative-than-some-of-the-other-Death-Eaters light. Which is fair enough.
- And Lucius and Narcissa betrayed their dark lord because of their love for their son. Narcissa telling Voldemort that Harry was dead saved his life. While the Malfoys are still evil pricks, they DID end up saving the wizarding world. So that's a plus, I guess.
- I think Lucius is meant to be seen as a pretty pathetic figure in the end. He starts out as a devout Death Eater but completely fails at every task Voldemort gives him. Eventually even Voldemort thinks he's a joke. Everything Lucius does is either cowardly or self-serving or both. That isn't exactly a positive portrayal. Especially since the Malfoys are neither punished or redeemed by the end of the battle. They all walk off into relative obscurity, unworthy of much attention or consideration. A life of insignificance might be the best penalty for Lucius.
- Also, where did "Lucius loves his wife and son" come from, anyway? In book two, we see Lucius making Draco feel like crap for only getting second in his class (after Hermione, a muggleborn) and pretty much all of Draco's character faults can be traced to trying to please the douchebag. Lucius is a terrible father. And we see Draco sitting between Narcissa and Lucius at the World Cup in the fourth book, which is usually only reserved for very small children and children whose parents do not get along.
- Umm....what? You can love your children while still being terrible at raising them. He was a strict and racist jerk, but he clearly wanted Draco to succeed, and was upset when he didn't. Normal parent behavior there. Draco wanting to please and be validated by his father is also normal child behavior, since most people would like their parents to be proud of them. Also, seeing Draco sitting in between his parents ONCE doesn't mean anything. Couples can fight, not talk to each other, take breaks, and so on and still love each other. Not saying that the he was the best father or husband, but to say that Lucius doesn't love them is unfounded.
- Given Lucius's place in the Death Eater ranks, his redemption likely took place off-screen, probably testimony in exchange for amnesty i.e. telling who was really Imperiused and who was acting of their own volition.
- Was he also granted some form of clemency for his prior conviction and subsequent escape from Azkaban? It's easy to forget, but Lucius had actually been convicted and thrown in prison for his actions in book five, only to be freed in a mass jailbreak. Even if they decided not to charge Lucius with any further crimes, it seems odd that the Ministry of Magic would allow him to walk away from that earlier conviction so easily.
- During the Death-Eaters' regime in the seventh book, what would have happened to a wizard or witch who was the child of a Muggle-born wizard and a Muggle mother (or vice versa) under the new laws?
- Supposedly the child would be little more than a Muggle-born, so in this case treated as though they were a Muggle-born. This is, of course, if papers weren't forged like some families were doing. To determine how 'pure' the blood is gets done by how many immediate family members are magical, mainly focusing on grandparents first then parents. So if papers were forged that the Muggle-born had two magical parents, the child would be treated as a half-blood. It gets rather complex the more combinations you bring into the discussion.
- The whole idea the Ministry was putting out at the time was that any witch/wizard without any actual witches/wizards in their immediate family got their power by stealing it from a real wizard, hence creating squibs. While any mixed blood would definitely be looked down on and treated like second class citizens, it was only those without any magical parentage that got punished.
- Why the wizards don't leave? I mean, they are being accused and incarcerated, so why they don't leave magical Britannia? They can apparate or use Floo powder or dozens of travel mediums and the entire Death Eater power base is just in the isles, so what stopped them from go abroad? Or better yet, flee to the Muggle word. Just like Slughorn shows, they could easily charm new proprieties, steal food and money, and above all else, it is a very big place to hide. Instead, they ended up like hobos and tramps (if they where lucky) in a Fascist regiment. Are wizards really that stupid? Even the Muggleborn side?
- Probably many of them did leave the country, there were a lot of students going to Hogwarts after all. There's the possibility that they couldn't leave because the Death Eaters were controlling the magical transportation through and from Britain(not sure if it's canon, but it sounds right), and that threats like 'register yourself or your entire family gets it' were all sprung on the Muggleborns before they could consider leaving the country through muggle means (Heck, maybe some death eaters shot down aeroplanes etc) Also perhaps it didn't start out as 'you are a muggle you must die' more like 'please come to the ministry so we can check your files' so the muggleborns would come willingly.
- As Muggleborns and half-bloods, many of them probably had Muggle relatives whom they got along with better than Harry got on with his. The Death Eaters were already abusing Muggles who were merely in the wrong place at the wrong time; why wouldn't they make veiled (or not-so-veiled) threats against the non-wizarding relatives of Muggleborns who failed to comply?
- The ones that left the country seem to have done so before everything kicked off. And the theory about Death Eaters controlling the transport seems spot on. For one in earlier books, the Ministry had to organise foreign witches and wizards arriving in the UK for the World Cup. So unless the fleeing wizard owned a broomstick, they'd actually be limited as to how far they could go. I'm sure I read somewhere that there's a distance limit for apparating. So that pretty much leaves only Muggle methods of transport - and they'd need passports to leave the country.
Voldemort vs Harry in the forest
- It seems Harry had the following things going for him when he walked into the forest to confront Voldemort: the Horcrux inside him, his intent to die for the people he loved, and his blood in Voldemort's veins. Which of these did what again? My working guess is that the blood kept him alive, the Horcrux didn't do anything except go away, and the sacrificial intent shielded the defenders of Hogwarts, but I still feel like I'm missing something.
- He also had the loyalty of the Elder Wand, which probably would have been hesitant to kill its owner, but not its owner's enemy's piece of soul.
- I'd go so far as to say that's the long and short of it. Harry didn't die because he was the master of the Elder Wand. Dumbledore meant for Harry to actually die, sacrificing himself to kill the bit of Voldemort and to create the hearth-protection on the defenders of Hogwarts. The only thing that saved him was that the Elder Wand intervened. That's also why he wasn't hurt when Voldemort zapped his seemingly-dead body.
- It wasn't the fact that he was master of the Elder Wand that saved him (in the forest when 'Morty hit him with the AK)... it was the fact that Harry was, himself, the final Horcrux. 'Mort's killing curse actually killed the part of himself that rested in Harry... of course, 'Mort didn't KNOW Harry was a Horcrux. The Elder Wand intervened when Voldemort fired off the AK in the final battle... Harry was able to "reflect" an "un-reflectable" spell, simply because the Elder Wand knew who its true owner was.
- He didn't just have the Elder Wand. He had all three Deathly Hallows, and so was the master of death. Dumbledore knew he could bring the Hallows together, which is why he gave the clues to finding them to Harry, Ron, and Hermione, and only them.
- Didn't he drop the ring just before he was about to face Voldemort? And the cloak?
- ^ One could argue the point that he had also mastered the Resurrection Stone and Invisibility Cloak by that time, too. Granted, the seemingly useless ring seems to have only one definitive useful purpose, gaining courage through images if your dead loved ones.
- Also, the fact that he dropped the ring and cloak didn't change the fact that he owned them.
- Objection! Point of order, Harry was not the rightful owner of the Resurrection Stone. That was lawfully Voldemort's, since he was the only heir of Marvolo Gaunt once Morfin died. The ring in which the Stone was set had been part of the Gaunt family up until the time that Dumbledore took it from where Voldemort hid it in the Gaunt shack.
- I don't think it was any individual element. IIRC, Dumbledore mentioned that so many extremely powerful magics had created a chimera of a magical bond unlike anything the Wizarding World had seen. Harry had a part of Voldemort's soul & Voldemort was essentially of Harry's flesh. Individually, either could have profound magical effects. Combined, it meant their souls were tied together with some darn good rope. And to add icing to the cake, a hesitant wand. From what I can figure, the process was more or less: AK is fired, hits. AK burns both souls and sends them to the Afterlife (or tries to, anyways). Horcrux is destroyed in the process. The Power of Love is still tying them together, however, which manages to hold Harry's soul (and the attached Voldemort shard) on the edge. Voldemort's own soul (or what's left of it) almost gets pulled in the process (remember, he collapsed and everything). This burns out the remaining link. Harry's soul, now free of its leash and still not past the Point of No Return, goes back. Meanwhile, the Ancient Magic of Love Protection was invoked when Harry gave his life for the others, rather than by the kill itself. That's why it worked even if Harry managed to return from the edge of the afterlife.
- That's apparently what Rowling had in mind - she said that she wanted to make it that the defying death things were completely accidental, not formulaic and easily replicable.
- In this troper's mind, this was all sort-of planned in Dumbledore's big Batman Gambit. In book 4, after Harry had his blood used in the resurrection ritual, there was a throwaway line about Dumbledore having a "look of triumph" in his eyes, that is quickly explained away by Harry being tired. My logic is that Dumbledore guessed that, given Harry's status as a Horcrux, and Voldemort's body now carrying on the protection his mother gave him, that it would very likely be the case that Voldemort couldn't kill Harry. He probably also guessed that Snape would eventually show Harry his memories, and, being the Manipulative Bastard he is, fed Snape the information that would drive Harry to sacrifice himself. Granted, Word of God 'does' imply that nobody really knew what exactly would happen, but Dumbledore probably had some good guesses.
- Canonically, that is exactly what happened; Dumbledore confesses such in the "King's Cross Station" conversation towards the end of Deathly Hallows, right down to admitting that he was guessing. The problem here lies in that this would mean that Dumbledore had no plan on how to save Harry up until book four, which puts a decidedly different spin on Dumbledore's original intentions.
- Well Voldemort hadn't even been resurrected yet until then, so any plan Dumbledore might have had would have been very rough.
Dropping on protections
- If the protective spells used in the beginning of the seventh book prevent any Death Eater from getting within X distance of the protected house (forgot what, let's call it "100 meters"), but include vertical distance and thus allow you to be 100 meters above, why the heck didn't the Death Eaters just drop a house, an elephant, a boulder, a tank full of enraged or charmed poisonous snakes, a bomb, or any number of other things on top of them? I mean, we have things that could easily and reliably kill from miles above or even miles away horizontally, without even using magic. Are they that focused on conventional offensive spells that they don't even acknowledge alternatives?
- The spell blocks anything except Order members/Harry and friends from getting through. Seemples! *squeak*
- Why, if the spell managed to bounce a flying Voldemort off, would a rock work? Yes, yes, no limit fallacies and all that, but Death Eaters are limited in what they can summon to heights as well, and the protective enchantment might shield against evil projectiles to an extent. Besides, wizards have no idea about high explosives.
- And that's assuming that Death Eaters would even deign to stoop to lowly Muggle tactics.
- As discussed in Idiot Plot, not even mutants try using such simple tactics. Which I don't consider as Muggle tactics, but Looney Tunes tactics.
- Because trying "smart" tricks to circumvent magical spells is more likely to backfire than do anything useful? (See Fred and George's attempt at entering the Triwizard Tournament). Magic doesn't work by logical principles, people.
- On the other hand, we know that the blood protections do not work to prevent Muggles from offering violence to Harry Potter on the premises of Privet Drive; we've seen Harry put in a choke hold, swung at with a frying pan, and have a bulldog set on him, not to mention all of Dudley's "Harry Hunting". The Imperius Curse has an obvious use here... and so does simply paying money to the sort of Muggles who will willingly do such crimes.
- Fred and George used magic to circumvent the system. No word was ever produced as to what would happen if Cedric had put Fred's name in instead of his own. Yes, Dumbledore likely thought of every scenario, but Fred and George attempted the easy way to circumvent the system. The best example that would have proven or disproved the theory is lacking because Harry's view of the scene was lacking. Did any of the Death Eaters following him with Voldemort hit the barrier as well? And if they did, how many fell off their brooms (and likely hovered in air due to the spell)?
- Asking someone else to put their names in is a possibility, but I'm more wondering why no one thought of the simple solution of a friggin pole.
- ^ Because a) Dumbledore, like a Dungeon Master, probably thought of that, and b) carrying a pole through Hogwarts would be rather conspicuous.
- When Dumbledore grabbed Harry in the film version of Goblet of Fire and asked him a bunch of questions, he also asked something along the lines of "did you get one of the older students to do it for you?", implying he hadn't made measures against that. Which is odd.
- As fake Moody explained, it took a strong Confundus charm to get Harry's name into the Goblet, as the Goblet is extremely powerful, and would've just thrown the extra name out/destroyed it.
- The Charm wasn't needed to get Harry's name into the cup, but to get it in under the name of a fourth school, and make the goblet believe there was supposed to be four champions.
- ^ Conjuration. Walk up to the goblet, conjure a pole, use the pole, dispel the pole.
- Even simpler solution. Write your name on a slip of paper. Hand slip of paper to 7th-year student. Pay him some galleons to toss it in for you.
- Isn't that one of the tricks Ron accuses Harry of having used? If Ron can think of it, presumably Dumledore can.
- You're assuming that magic works on legalistic rules. I don't imagine that it works in such a way that a Death Eater can't be a hundred meters from Harry. Rather, it works in such a way that Harry is protected while he calls chez Dursley home. More likely it works on the same rules that your parents go by, if that makes any sense. If your parents say that you can't have any cookies until you get "back to the house," and you go to a friend's and eat cookies there, saying that you were technically "at the house" won't stop you from getting five across the face. It doesn't matter what the word of magic is, it's the spirit of magic that matters.
- The 'spirit of magic' explanation still does nothing to answer the objection raised above re: Muggle-on-muggle violence, because it is canon that Harry has been physically assaulted several times (by the Dursleys and by Dudley's friends) while on the grounds at Privet Drive. And during book 6 Hermione reads a Daily Prophet article about a nine-year-old boy who was placed under the Imperius Curse and forced to kill his own grandparents, with the implication that using Imperiused family members to murder people was a favorite Death Eater terror tactic. So why did the Death Eaters suddenly forget a known tactic when confronted with a problem that said tactic would have been a trivially easy solution for?
- I don't believe Harry was ever physically harmed while within the actual bounds of the spell. There was the occasional attempt to harm him but there was never any harm done to him. All successful attacks (bullying, Dementors, etc.) happen outside the area of the wards. He wasn't treated nicely but he's somehow physically and emotionally intact, far more than he should be after what he's been through and the worst that actually happens to him is being locked in a room and ignored for a few days. He gets hungry but no serious damage.
- Pathalogical distrust to adults, borderline suicidal recklessness, hero complex, inferiority complex, severe lack of communication skills. That doesn't speak "Emotionally intact" to me. And what good are the wards in this case? Obviously he didn't spent his entrie life inside the house, so what's stopping someone from getting him when he goes to non-wiz school or to the grocery shop or just out for the walk?
Wearing the locket
- Why, oh why, why on earth did they decide that they needed to wear that locket in the seventh book? It wasn't for lack of better place to put it, as they had a bag of holding and another bag which could never be opened by anyone except Harry, either of which would be more secure than their necks. And even if context didn't tip them off that it was cursed and not nice to wear, they quickly figured out that it did, in fact, have a strong malignant effect when worn that they'd have been much better off avoiding. And they keep wearing it. And while I won't blame them for being caught off guard when it actually tried to kill Harry the first time, the fact that he continued wearing it even after that and gave it a second chance to kill him is absurd. He deserved to die for that.
- The only thing I could think of is that the locket could exert some sort of 'pull' on anyone of interest who came too close; sort of fogging their heads up just enough to make it seem obvious that you have to wear the locket, you just have to. (Justifying, justifying...) It might help to explain Umbridge's inordinate interest in it, too: I mean, talk about a stickler for the rules (well, the ones she likes), but she let Fletcher off for the price of a locket? (Thinking about it this way at least made me a little less annoyed.)
- This might also explain why Dumbledore decided the potion in the cave had to be drunk. Also (even though these have perfectly reasonable character-based reasons)) it could also add a second layer of explanation to Ginny trusting the diary and Dumbledore putting on the ring. It doesn't have a strictly solid textual basis, but it's entirely plausible that it was standard practice for Voldemort to guard his Horcruxes with mind-clouding magical effects in addition to the tangible protections around them.
- Don't forget that Harry knows what happened the last time someone tried to wear a Horcrux. The ring was deadly, and that wasn't just spending time with it, it caused irrevocable damage almost instantly when it was put on. Good thing the Horcruxes generally prefer to screw with those who associate with them than to kill them.
- No he doesn't..he doesn't know at that point it was putting on the ring that maimed Dumbledore, just that he was injured while retrieving it, for all he knows it could have been a protective spell around the hiding place that did it.
- The three of them were extremely paranoid. They were hiding from the wizarding world and were carrying around a piece of Voldemort's soul while making freaking well certain he didn't find out what they were up to. All while marked for death and imprisonment and while Death Eaters and Snatchers were on the prowl. Harry didn't want to take the slightest chance that the locket would be stolen or lost. Even if he put it in his bag, there's no guarantee that the bag wouldn't have been lost or stolen, which would again mean no more Voldemort soul which would mean wasting time and possible danger trying to retrieve it.
- Wearing the locket around his neck is no safer than putting it in that locked personal bag he also wears around his neck. It is probably safe to assume that the locket will mess with you if it's in your immediate possession though, otherwise they could have just put it in any makeshift bag to hang around their necks to protect themselves. It's not clear how the thing works.
- Seriously, though, deciding to keep wearing that thing is like Frodo keeping the Ring on his finger: Plot Inducedstupidity.
- I agree that it was very stupid. There's a line when they get the cup of Hufflepuff and one them (I think Hermione) says "Well, at least we don't have to wear this one", and kept it in their bag. Which means that they're fine with keeping a Horcrux in their bag if forced to, so it would've been much much safer to not wear the locket. Also, Hagrid had given Harry a mokeskin pouch, and no one but the owner of the pouch could take anything out of it. So that would've been the perfect place to put the locket, but Harry seems to have been holding an Idiot Ball and promptly forgot about the pouch seconds after obtaining it.
- Wouldn't having it in the pouch exert the same effect? This is Voldemort's soul we're talking about.
- It does seem that using a Horcrux the way a Muggle uses it, i.e. writing in the diary, putting the ring on your finger, or wearing the locket, activates the Horcrux's effects.
- That depends on how extension charms and such work in Ms. Rowling's world. We don't know enough about them beyond them being relatively common.
- Chalk it up to Harry being Crazy-Prepared. Look at how they went on the run in the first place. Interrupted at a wedding and if Hermione hadn't packed her bag beforehand, they would have been stuck with nothing. And just as easily, they'd lost the safety of Grimmauld Place. So they could just as easily become separated from their belongings and lose the Horcrux. Wearing the thing was dangerous yes, but reasonable.
- I don't care how dangerous or forbidden Fiendfyre is: If Hermione knew that it could destroy a Horcrux, she should have at least mentioned it rather than letting them search for months for something capable of destroying the locket Horcrux, treating the sword like they couldn't complete the quest without it once they knew it worked and then relying on Basilisk fangs to kill the rest. You're a smart person—you can find some way of using that spell without causing too much trouble, like Apparating to a tiny desert island right before casting it and Apparating away. As for the dark nature, if Unforgivables are ok that's ok, and with dark magic being sold and taught openly surely she could've gotten hold of it if she didn't know how to cast it. And she definitely knew of it, since she recognized it and knew that and why it would destroy a Horcrux when it was used.
- I would tend to assume Hermione didn't know it, considering how Dark a spell it was, and as for learning it or buying it — how, or from whom, in the middle of the forest? Remember, the three of them were completely cut off from society.
- If you don't know what happens to people who use evil magic just because it's more effective, even for a good cause, just ask Anakin Skywalker.
- Who knows if it even needs fuel. Might as well hop all the way to the nearest settlement or whatever. (Not to mention that finding deserted islands to 'port to isn't quite easy.)
- First off, how many "desert islands" does Hermione know about personally? Second off, Fiendfyring something is a guaranteed way to destroy anything and everything flammable as long as the fiery creatures can keep running, eating/burning stuff, etc. They'd have a field day in a forest, or (pardon the pun) a cornfield, and therefore using Fiendfyre on the tiny locket would probably be only marginally less noticeable than tripping the Taboo-sensor. The only reason that it stayed inside the Room of Requirement was because there were non-flammable walls enclosing the entire area.
- Well, she knows that Ron went to Egypt between books Two and Three. Lots of deserts in Egypt, that's all I'm saying.
- And even if you hadn't been there before, how could you possibly miss landing on Antarctica?
- Sure, no one would notice the sudden spike in sea levels from all of the ice in Antarctica meltingnote .
- You know, they never stated the fire dies out. Maybe, it it goes uninterrupted, it could burn down an entire desert? Subtle.
- And that's ignoring the problems of getting out of the country in the first place.
- Yeah, really. IIRC, Quidditch Throuhg The Ages mentions that Apparation between continents is quite difficult, and likely to result in Spliching (something Ron wouldn't be keen to experience again). As smart as Hermione is, she's not all that experienced at teleporting. Chances are, she wouldn't even make it across the English Channel.
- The English Channel is only 150 miles wide at its widest point, and only 21 miles at its narrowest. Wizards routinely apparate greater distances than that; Hogsmeade is several hundred miles from London, for one example.
- Why not the 'Hut-on-the-Rock'? Harry's been there before, and no one would miss the ramshackle shack.
- No, the only reason the fiendfyre stayed contained in the Room of Requirements is because it's a magical pocket dimension. Fiendfyre doesn't just burn flammable things, unless you're going to tell me that a tiara made of solid silver is somehow flammable. Fiendfyre eats everything. It is sentient fire. That is why Hermione never conjured any of it up.
- Metals can burn, if you have the right conditions (usually involving the presence of carbon and extreme temperature). Also silver has a very low melting point for a metal, so practically any fire would have destroyed the tiara if it hadn't been horcruxed. The fiendyre worked because it's magical enough to break the protective enchantments of the horcrux, and simple temperature did the rest.
- Anyone else bugged with Dumbledore's uber Omnipotence in the last book? He was always portrayed as a smart guy, but all of a sudden we're supposed to believe that he KNEW Harry would find all the Horcruxes, even though the only clues he left him were for the Hallows, and the location of one Horcrux in particular (the cup) was only deduced after the kids ACCIDENTALLY got themselves caught and taken to Malfoy manor? He acts as if almost everything went according to plan, when chance obviously played a hand in events.
- He gave him everything they needed, the skill and knowledge to pick up where he left off. He didn't know that Harry would find them. But with the knowledge of Voldemort he imparted he damn well hoped that he could. The last book was Harry (somewhat literally) thrown into the wilderness to see how his skills shaped up without his omnipresent guardian.
- Dumbledore makes mistakes, and makes decisions without consulting those affected, and when questioned his response is usually along the lines of Because I Said So. Dumbledore knew that a number of things he was doing were dickish or stupid (e.g. putting on the ring which would've killed him, which he openly admitted was a big mistake), and he did them anyway. There are a number of times in the HBP where Harry questions his decisions, and Dumbledore never gives him a straight answer, at one point saying yelling "I'm much cleverer than you" to Harry. Whatever his good points, Dumbledore promoted obedience over independent decision making.
- Also, I got the idea that Dumbledore didn't know the locations of the cup or the tiara. He can't leave more clues for Harry if he himself had no idea.
- Obviously Dumbledore didn't know the location of either the cup or the tiara. The tiara was right under his nose in the room of requirement the entire time. He'd have made a beeline for it if he had known. He showed Harry the last known location of the cup (stolen by Riddle from Hepzibah Smith) and taught Harry how Voldemort thinks and acts in the hopes that he could use that information to trace it down.
- Harry almost explicitly said that Dumbledore wouldn't have known where the diadem was; he said something about how Dumbledore and Flitwick, being the model students that they were, wouldn't have gone into the Room of Requirement to hide things. And remember in Book 4, Dumbledore mentions a room full of chamberpots that he didn't understand.
- Keep in mind, Dumbledore had one major failure: Snape. Harry's quests and assignments were Plan A, with Hermione and Ron able to carry Harry's knowledge of the Horcruxes if Harry died. Snape was the other side of the plan for killing Voldemort, and that plan completely backfired.
- It was also implied that Dumbledore didn't know that they'd be able to figure out everything. He says at the end that he had "hoped" that Hermione would figure out about the Deathly Hallows and then have the sense to not let Harry go running off after them willy-nilly.
- Simple: Dumbledore is BAD ASS.
- To answer the OP's original question about Dumbledore's near-omnipotence, I say unto you: "Do you know what the dead do with most of their time? Watch the living."
- To answer the OP's original question (different troper), the only alternative Dumbledore had besides knowing/believing that they would have found all the Horcruxes was basically to give up (especially when it was implied that he didn't know where the other Horcruxes were, so he wouldn't have been able to help in that regard anyhow). In the end, either they completely succeed or they fail, all or nothing, and Dumbledore was definitely wiser than to give up on the boy and the boy's friend who have overcome near-impossible odds many times before it became obvious that they would have the biggest hand in the battle against the greatest dark wizard of all time. For lack of knowing for certain the outcome, all he could hold onto was hope, and so his postmortem and premortem actions were on the assumption that they would succeed, as opposed to thinking it all futile and not doing anything while believing they would fail.
- This is actually the original OP who wrote that question: After thinking about it and reading the books again I think I would definitly phrase my original headscratcher differently. In the end the issue that bugs me I guess is just how little Dumbledore left the trio to go on in their horcurx quest, and how much of their ultimate success was brought about by pure chance. I mean, they might never have solved the RAB thing or found the locket horcrux if they hadn't just happened to decide to return to Grimmauld place, and like I mentioned before they only found out the location of the cup horcrux by pure accident after being captured. Finding the Tiara took a bit more deduction but they still had the break of Harry reading Voldy's mind just as he was thinking of its hiding place. Even the sword of gryffindor, one of the few things Dumbledore did arrange for them, was long delayed in coming because Snape had to sit around waiting for one of the kids to slip up and reveal their location before he could deliver it. And ultimately it almost seems out of character that Dumbledore was able to predict the characters behaviors regarding the Hallows, and that Ron would need the deluminator, or how Harry would need to use the Ressurection Stone, but that he *didn't* leave them any other leads or even just a better plan for getting that darn sword to them.
- Dumbledore literally gave them all he knew. He was at the edge of his knowledge about the horcruxes. He knew that their journey would be near impossible and possibly take years, decades maybe, but it was honestly all they had to go on. If he could have told them more he would have. Actually, he would have acted on the information about the other horcruxes himself if he'd had it.
- Actually no, he didn't tell them nearly everything he knew. He didn't tell them that the Basilisk teeth and the Griffindor sword can destroy the horcruxes. He didn't tell them Snape was an ally or at least arrange for any way to relay this knowledge to them, other then from Snape himself, which is retarded. He, for some inexplicable reason, tried to pass them the sword through official channels, even though he knew the ministery was corrupt and compromised. He didn't provide for a safe passage to Hogwarts. He didn't tell Harry about the Elder wand because of some "right moment" bullshit and didn't pass the wand to him, even though he would need it to kill V. He somehow failed to find the Diadem which was under his nose and which took the Scarheard a whooping few minutes to find. He didn't tell them that he was going to die and thus they would have to complete the quest on their own. He didn't teach them even the basic survival skills, like storing emergency food stashes.
- Okay, for one, the basilisk fangs may never have occurred to Dumbledore. I know it sounds like a stretch, but it's possible. It was worth a try passing thee sword through the ministry, and maybe that was his way of telling the trio to try and get it. One of Dumbledore's major flaws seems to be that he likes to be cryptic. It's like he doesn't want to spoon feed Harry all the information because eventually Harry will reach a problem Dumbledore never solved and have no idea how to approach it. He COULDN'T tell them Snape was an ally because they weren't sufficiently trained in occlumency. If they bumped into Voldemort the bloke would find out immediately about Snape's true allegiance and the entire plan would be fucked. It's already been mentioned above, and in the book, that Dumbledore never thought of looking in the Ro R for he diadem because he never explored the castle like Harry and co. did - he simply didn't know the Ro R existed. And tell them survival tips? The man was dying - he had limited time left to impart all his knowledge! He couldn't take time out to take them on scouting lessons and teach them how to build a campfire and sing Father Abraham with them! I think he probably assumed that they would have some basic knowledge and practicality.
- Fangs - no, it was literally impossible for him to not know, because Harry used one to destroy the diary, which he knew about. Doesn't explain the sword. "Pass the sword through the ministery" - what's the point? It should've been clear from the last three books, that Scarhead has no problem-solving skills whatsoever, so nothing could be gained from withholding information from him; in the end he still had to be spoon-fed it, except in ridiculously contrived and improbable means. "They weren't sufficiently trained in occlumency" - and who's fault was that? "He never explored the castle like Harry and co. did" - you're kidding, right? "He simply didn't know the Ro R existed" - yes, he did. Aside from explicitely learning about it in the "Order", what do you think that story about a "a room full of chamber pots" was if not DD "subtly" telling Harry about the Room? "He had limited time left to impart all his knowledge" - you've got me here. After all, he only had a year to tell what literally could've been told in a single evening OH WAIT. "They would have some basic knowledge" - where from?
- Dumbledore had no way of getting into the Chamber of Secrets, and who's to say he wasn't planning on sending Harry down to pick some fangs up before the end of 6th year, unfortunately he died. He can't put in his will "go to the chamber and collect fangs" and he also doesn't want Harry returning to the school, the sword is his best chance of getting a horcrux killing instrument to Harry & co. DD knew about the Ro R, he did NOT know about the room of hidden things. A room that only appears when you want to hide something. Dumbledore would never have had occasion to access a room like that.
Meal with Aberforth
- The three primary characters had very little time towards the end of the last book before Voldie discovered that his Horcruxes were missing. Time was of the utmost essence. And yet they sat down and had a meal with Aberforth (granted the conversation at the END of the meal was necessary for plot and character development). That's okay, though, because we all know that the bomb isn't disarmed until the last second, and that when the camera isn't on the clock itself, time does strange things.
- There was one particular thing there: they had no way to get into Hogwarts, which is what Aberforth told them. In order to get in, they had to convince him to help them, because he had the only key to the last secret passage. So, if you don't know how to get where you want to go, best to ask for help. And eating after everything they'd been through probably wasn't a bad idea either.
- I'm pretty sure Harry would have jumped into action once his scar begins to burn way worse than it did the past months. Besides—aside from the reason given above—it would be a great idea to pack in some calcium and carbohydrates to get ready for the biggest evil Bad Ass of all time.
- They hadn't slept, hadn't eaten, and were recovering from a Dementor attack. It doesn't seem like a quick meal of bread, cheese, and wine while trying to get help from Aberforth was that unwarranted.
Legally getting out of punishment
- How do the Malfoys, who used Unforgivable Curses multiple times each, "weasel their way" out of punishment just because Narcissa helped Harry a little? (Especially Lucius because he actively fought for Voldemort, so did Draco, Narcissa probably did too)
- Because Narcissa's aid was a significant, and arguably vital, part in the defeat of Voldemort. That plus Harry Potter being the forgiving type towards the Malfoys could swing it easily, especially given that immediately after the events of Deathly Hallows, it's hardly unreasonable to presume that the Ministry of Magic would be feeling extremely charitable towards Harry and any requests he happened to make.
- Significant? Vital? Voldemort is a moron. What would he have done if Narcissa had said Harry was alive? AK him again. To absolutely no effect. We know this because he does that later. Frankly, had she said he was alive, the duel would have probably taken place right then, only Harry would just have to grab a wand from the nearest Death Eater instead (who would be way too shocked to put up resistance). Frankly Voldy is way too stupid to try anything but magic, even if he could win by bludgeoning Harry to death with a stick.
- Wrong. Voldemort's AK in the great hall didn't work because the Elder Wand wouldn't overpower the simultaneously-cast counterspell from it's true owner. If Voldie AKed Harry in the forest a second time, Harry would be dead, as he had no chance to defend himself, and no longer had any protection from things like bits of Voldie's soul hanging onto him. Also, he did have his wand in his pocket, he just didn't want to be tempted to use it to defend himself when he went to meet his death. And who's to say that after the party died down, the Malfoys weren't arrested, tried and sent to Azkhaban? All we see is the party (where the Malfoys are sitting nervously expecting someone to confront them at any moment), then cut to 19 years later, where we only see Draco. His parents might still be in Azkhaban, and he might have served time there himself.
- Expeliarmus isn't a counterspell. It's a disarming spell, causing whatever was in a persons hand to fly out of it. AK was already launched and it hit Harry to no effect.
There's no reason to believe that the Malfoys didn't pay their due between the end of the Battle and Nineteen years later. For all we know Draco could have been in Azkaban for 9 years, released, THEN got married and produced little Scorpius.
- Also, ever since the beginning of book 6, Narcissa seemed unwilling to follow Voldemort. I believe she only did because she was afraid for her son's life. Draco was only 16, and so slanted from his father's (and probably mother's) prejudice, how could he be expected to be anything else? He showed potential for good at the end of book 6 and, had he been given more time, I think he might have taken Dumbledore's deal. He was frightened, just like his mother. In book 7, he does show some mercy, if you look closely at encounters with him.
- Because when you run a successful counter-revolution and you win you still have to work with the people that were on the other side if you want a lasting peace. The US learnt that the hard way in Iraq. Remember how they threw all Ba'ath party members out and the country went to hell? Same principle, unless the new administration wanted to re-fight this war with different names in 20-ish years time, then they had to swallow their righteous indignation and forgive and forget. Winning a war is the easy part, winning the peace is the hard bit. I suspect there was probably something like the South African peace and reconciliation committee involved. Plus heroes are kinda obligated to be heroic and gracious in victory, vengeance and punishment is for villains in the Potter-verse.
- Word of God via Pottermore is that Lucius avoided being imprisoned because he "provided evidence against other Death Eaters and helped ensure the capture of many of Lord Voldemort's followers who had fled into hiding."
- There's also the fact that Harry knew that Draco had been groomed personally to kill Dumbledore - a mission that would have resulted in his death if he failed. So he knew that the Malfoys had good reason to be acting mainly out of fear. Even Lucius returning to the Death Eaters after Voldemort was resurrected could have been motivated by fear for his family. Since the last war ended with as many people as possible being thrown in prison just to keep the public happy, it's likely the new government was trying to learn from past mistakes. And being sympathetic to people who were in a grey area is a good way to start.
Bag of holding
- Harry Potter's just a bit too fond of the Idiot Ball when it comes to using his magical items sensibly. Sirius Black, his beloved Godfather, gives him a magic mirror which allows him to communicate with him any time he wants. Harry promptly puts it away somewhere and forgets about it, even when he really, REALLY wants to check with Sirius to make sure it's OK. Then, in 'Deathly Hallows' he gets a magic bag which, when he puts something in, nobody else but him may get it out. PERFECT place to put a Horcrux...except when a certain author wishes to do an irritatingly long homage to The One Ring. So instead Harry puts the damn thing around his neck and acts like a Jerkass for several hundred pages and almost gets killed as a result. It even gets to the Ron arguably engages in a Lampshade Hanging after rescuing Harry from drowning.
- Thank you. It really bugged me that Harry & co. were determined to wear that thing around their necks, despite the fact that they knew an evil soul lived in it, and was corrupting them. Even if they were too dumb to put it in the magic bag, um, hello pockets anybody? They even say they're glad the cup doesn't have a string so they don't have to tie it around their necks...even though there was no reason to wear the locket in the first place.
- Probably would have been the exact same thing as wearing the thing if Harry put it in his bag in terms of mental exhaustion, just because he isn't explicitly wearing it doesn't mean it won't effect him due to mere proximity. The reason why they actually wore it is probably because it would be a bit more of a chore switching the amulet to another person should they have to extricate it from whatever extra dimensional space it is currently in, especially if the person is rather irritable as would likely be the case.
- The bit with the mirror, IIRC, was that Harry didn't know what it did, as when Sirius gave it to him, he was to busy having a hissy fit to really care. He didn't find out what it was until Sirius was already dead.
- He knew it was a method for contacting his godfather and put it away vowing never to use it cause he figured it would result in Sirius getting captured, however between this and the ending much time had passed and he no doubt (in his panic) forgot about the package he hid and put out of his mind much earlier in the year. He only had moments, in his mind, to come up with a plan to save Sirius and as far as he knew Sirius was most certainly being held at the Ministry, it wasn't a matter of talking to him, it was a matter of getting to him in time.
- In response to Harry knowing the present was a way to contact Sirius, no, he did not. Sirius just told him to use it when Harry really needed him, or something vague to that effect, and Harry never even opened it. Its appearance at the end of the book serves to make the situation more poignant: all this time he had a way to save Sirius but did not know about it.
- On top of that, he suddenly realizes at the end of the book that he had the mirror all along and spends several minutes figuratively kicking himself over it.
- Just because his bag could only be opened by him doesn't mean that it couldn't have been stolen or lost. And even if the Horcrux couldn't have been taken out, it still would have meant that they would have wasted time and endangered themselves trying to get it back.
- Wouldn't it have been easier to steal around someone's neck than in a bag no one but Harry can take things out of? Imagine if they'd still had the locket when the Snatchers caught them. Presumably someone would have searched them and found the locket. Even though they would've had no idea what it was, it wouldn't have been too hard for one of them to go "Hmm, this looks valuable. Yoink."
- I'm still of the opinion that one of the enchantments on the locket was an Idiot Ball. There was no reason for them to carry it around and degrade their mood and friendship, it was the locket causing all intelligent thoughts about it to be ignored.
- That makes sense. Ginny said that she knew better than to confide in anything like a magical journal that talked to you, but she did to the point that she almost had her soul drained to power a resurrection spell. Dumbledore himself said that he was overpowered by an urge to put on the ring, which he knew had to have a lethal defense installed in it. Could this be why Harry acts like a suicidal dumbass so much in the first books; his Horcrux is actively driving him to take steps that could kill him?
- That... is actually an awesome explantion, all things considered. Since the horcrux was created unintentionally and at the moment when V's greatest desire was to kill the kid, instead of protecting its "vessel" the soul fragment went on to fulfil that desire. Of course, that makes DD that much bigger an asshole for providing it with ample opportunities to do so and.
Muggle-borns kicked out
- Just had a thought, though most of the muggle-born wizards who were accused of "stealing" magic by Umbridge and co were sent to Azkaban in Deathly Hallows, some became street beggars. But they were muggle-borns, couldn't they have moved in with other relatives or looked for a council house and signed on to the Dole until they picked up enough skills to get a non-magic job. Which could have taken a while, yes, but would have given them somewhere to live until the regime blew over.
- Some of them probably have. There are presumably thousands of wizards in Britain. Assuming roughly ten percent of them are Muggle-born, there would be hundreds lining the streets if every one of them took to begging. Probably the ones left behind are the ones who didn't have any Muggle connections left, as Lily would have been if it had happened to her (after all, she couldn't very well go to Petunia now, could she?)
- Most Muggle-borns probably don't maintain enough of a legal identity among Muggles to return to a life among their parents' kind. If they applied for public assistance, they'd be asked why they hadn't previously done so...and, if they admit they'd been working in the interim, why they haven't been paying their taxes up to now.
- Plus, imagine being an adult having to read adjust to the Muggle world after essentially becoming more Wizard than Muggle. Especially since you would have, at best, a fourth grade Muggle education.
- Keeping in mind that the regime was obviously, visibly turning against Muggles, many of them probably didn't want to put their relatives in danger by staying with them.
- There's also the fact that a lot of hate crime was obviously going on and the most popular wandmaker in Britain had disappeared. Who's to say that there weren't some real wizards and witches who had their wands "confiscated" by hacks or rogues masquerading as "peacekeepers" or something. With no way to cast magic and no way to get a replacement, what else could they do?
- In Deathly Hallows, we see Harry using three wands and causing more damage than the standard single wand. Why doesn't everybody use multiple wands in that case?
- Moody did mention 'someone' loosing half a buttock due to misfire...
- That would probably be hideously expensive. And not especially useful for the majority of applications.
- Wands cost about £35 each. I've spent more on pants.
- Maybe when buying a wand, it will only choose a wizard who doesn't already have one to begin with (though the rules are different when you win a wand in combat). So unless you happen to have won a lot of wands, it's just not worth it. You could buy multiple wands sure, but without the allegiance there wouldn't be much of a power gain.
- Maybe if a person uses more than one wand, either the wand they aren't attuned to starts getting less and less usable, or of they use two wands with a strong link to themselves they get into competition and eventually "pull the wizard apart" (metaphorically or explosively) when he or she tries to multicast a stunning spell one too many times?
- What I'm getting from that is that wands are jealous, possessive, and territorial. Man, wands are pricks.
- Yes, yes they are. But think of it like a person who switches between a calligraphy pen and a felt-tip pen. As the person prefers the calligraphy pen because the felt-tip doesn't have enough force feedback or stroke control, or the felt-tip because the calligraphy pen is too scratchy, they rely more and more on the one with which they are more comfortable, and get more practice with it, and become even more comfortable with it. It's sort of the same way with wands, only instead of the ink from two separate reservoirs flowing through it to mark paper, it's your energy flowing through it to warp reality.
- Probably because using multiple wands would be like using a single battery to light up multiple bulbs arranged in a parallel circuit. IOW, it would drain the caster's energy much more quickly, and the increased effect is not that great because not all wands are compatible to the wizard.
- The most widely-used wandmaker in Britain was missing and the Ministery was confiscating wands left and right. New ones would have been hard to come by.
- Also, the few times multiple wands/spells are used, they don't just have more powerful, they're unpredictable. What if, using your uber-powerful-ten-wands-tied-together-stick-of-DOOM, you tried to bake a cake and instead accidentally destroyed a country with a magical nuclear explosion? When Harry, Ron and Hermione-three tired, weakened, confused teenagers-try to disarm Snape, they end up smashing him into a wall and nearly kill him. No point killing an enemy if you turn everyone else around you and yourself into a pile of smouldering ash.
- Voldemort had the children of Hogwarts under his control for nearly a year. Why didn't he use that time to brainwash the kiddies into becoming little Death Eaters? Almost all the students volunteer to fight against him in the end, so we know he didn't.
- He wanted to (he did make attendance obligatory), he put Snape in charge of running the place and Snape was working against Voldemort. So Maybe Snape lied in saying he was brainwashing the kids, while making sure the non death eater teachers were free to teach the kids properly.
- What makes you think he didn't? Carrows taught Dark Arts to kids, Muggle Study lessons were used to trumpet anti-muggle propaganda, what else do you need? Besides, let's not forget that for the length of the DH Voldemort was intent to remain a grey eminence until La Résistance is crushed so as not to instigate a full-scale rebellion among wizards. It turned out he was right as the rebellion did break out after he went gunz blazing against Hogwarts.
- He tried to do that, definitely. Turns out, torturing eleven year old kids is not the best way to win their loyalty.
- Additionally, he had not even a full year to start his brainwashing program, and most of the students who wanted to stay knew Harry personally. That's gonna trump an obviously eeevil education. (Plus, the older students may very well have told the younger ones who hadn't had as much contact with Harry not to listen to the Carrows).
- Why on Earth did Voldemort allow known members of the Order of the Phoenix to work at Hogwarts, educating the next generation of potential Death Eaters instead of killing them and replacing all the lessons with propaganda? Young children are relatively easy to brainwash most of the time, so why was the whole school not staffed totally by Death Eaters?
- And it is stated in the books that Voldemort idolizes Hogwarts and the teachers, to him it's the real home he never had and everything he wished to have. He could only bring himself to destroy the teachers from his school if they openly opposed him; he did receive the best magic teaching at Hogwarts after all; and surely, with Dumbledore and Potter dead and defeated, the remaining teachers would understand that he is almighty and all powerful and wouldn't dare to cross him. Voldie is the Evil Overlord made flesh.
- None of the teachers are members of the Order except Snape (who's a triple agent), Moody and Lupin (who no longer teach). Harry himself tells that to Slughorn at the beginning of book 6. Beside, you never see Flitwick or McGonagall around Grimmauld Place do you? The teachers ARE supporters of Dumbledore however, but Voldemort could hardly kill them all and keep the school running (as was his plan by making attendance obligatory). He'd then have to fill the school with Death Eaters, and seeing as there's only 20 active death eaters at most, that would hardly be practical.
- Actually, McGonagall did come to Grimmauld Place once in Book 5. I don't have it in front of me, but I seem to remember something like Harry thinking she looked very odd in a muggle dress.
- So use the Imperius Curse on them. Simple.
- Except the Curse can be resisted, especially when used for long periods of time. Since Voldemort was planning to control Hogwarts forever (He didn't know he'd be defeated in a year, after all), it would be awkward to keep the teachers imperiused (Barty Crouch Sr. 9 months to shake off the curse, Harry was able to do it after a few short applications). I wouldn't want to be one of the Carrow Siblings when Flitwick or McGonagall breaks free of the curse and decides it's time to kick your ass. Voldemort probably figured that with his "loyal" Death Eater Snape in charge, he didn't need to do anything else to keep the teachers in line, after all, he just had to tell the teacher that if they step out of line, the kids will be the one to get most of the punishment.
- The giant Ass Pull from the seventh book, "the trace." It's a complete flip-flop from the rest of the series that explicitly stated that the Ministry couldn't detect WHO was doing magic, just where.
- I always thought it was more like the Trace could detect underage wizards, not underage magic, so they could tell if magic was performed in the vicinity of an underage wizard, but they still wouldn't know if they'd actually performed the magic or someone else.
- So when Dobby performed magic at Privet Drive Harry got in trouble. How about all those underage kids that have older friends doing magic, or their family at home constantly performing magic around them? Do they get whisked off to be tried at the ministry as well? Alternatively, underage wizards could get away with doing magic in their own house as long as older wizards lived there.
- Word of God states that for underage wizards who live with wizard families, the Ministry more or less trusts the parents to control the children. What they're mostly concerned about is magic performed in Muggle areas, what with that pesky Statute of Secrecy and all. So Dobby's pudding trick wouldn't have called upon Ministry officials if he'd tried it while Harry was staying with the Weasleys, for example.
- "the Trace could detect underage wizards, not underage magic, so they could tell if magic was performed in the vicinity of an underage wizard, but they still wouldn't know if they'd actually performed the magic or someone else." If this is true, then why doesn't Harry get in trouble in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire when Arthur reverses the Engorgement Charm on Dudley's tongue? Or when Tonks magically packs Harry's trunk and cleans Hedwig's cage in Goblet of Fire? There was no way for the Ministry to know that there were adult wizards/witches at Privet Drive at those times, so why wouldn't they immediately assume that Harry was the one doing magic?
- Arthur is the head of the Misuse of Muggle Artifacts department. Tonks is an Auror. Either of them could easily have left a note with the relevant Ministry department of 'I may be using magic in this vicinity today; disregard alarms from that location' and passed it off as official business.
- That makes sense in Goblet of Fire, but it doesn't make as much sense in OotP, since the Order were working mostly without Ministry knowledge/consent, so presumably someone in the Ministry would have been very interested to know what 'official business' Tonks was getting up to in the home of Harry Potter, whom the whole Ministry was against.
- It's instructive to note that in GoF Arthur Weasley is perfectly content to do magic inside the house, but in OotP the Order members guarding the place are careful to stay on the street or in the adjacent yard and off the grounds of #4 Privet Drive proper. Apparently they do know the maximum range at which the Trace can pick up a reading, and are deliberately staying outside of it.
- It's also possible that someone in the government did have some sense and turned off the alarms on Harry. (If not the actual Trace.) It's also possible they did send him some warnings afterwards, which never made it to him because of the protection around him, or the Weasley adults just discarded. (Or maybe the warnings went to the Dursley's, oops.)
- If the Trace can only detect if someone nearby is casting magic, then when an underage Tom Riddle murdered the Riddles, why wasn't the ministry at all curious about an underage wizard casting magic in an area where no underage wizards lived? (Or was Tom 17 when he did that?)
- We're never really told what age Tom is when he kills his dad and grandparents. Either he was old enough to not have the trace, there wasn't a trace at the time (it was 50 years ago), or the least likely but still possible he didn't directly kill them but later claimed to. Keep in mind he'd have been 17 halfway through year 6 because his birthday is on December 31st. He could have done it over the Christmas break in his 6th year.
- The Gaunts lived way out away from town and were all magic. Yes, technically Morfin was living by himself, but the Ministery didn't necessarily know that. All they would have known was that someone used magic in a place that they already knew was the residence of a magical family, a family with a daughter no less (so for all they knew, Merope still lived there and had a child, or even that they had younger magic relatives staying over).
- We don't even know that Tom actually kills the Riddles, besides what Voldemort tells us. This troper remembers seeing an alternate scenario in a fanfic where Tom walks in to the Gaunt house and knocks Morfin out with a frying pan. Morfin wakes up, sees that his ring is gone and vaguely remembers someone who looks like the Riddles across the street coming in...
- Actually, at least in Order of the Phoenix, the Trace tells the Ministry that magic has been performed in the vicinity of an underage wizard. Madame Bones made it a point to state that Harry was the only known wizard living in Little Whinging (brought up because of Mrs Figg, who said she lived near him, and she had to elaborate that she was a Squib and thus didn't show up in the registry). This is also why children from magical families are trusted to control their child's use of magic, because the Ministry wouldn't be able to tell just who had used magic, which is why Fred and George get away with using magic over summers without Ministry notices (Otherwise, they probably would've been expelled a dozen times over). Besides, Ron quickly points out that Harry can't still have the Trace, being seventeen—the point of concern for them is that the Death Eaters might have somehow changed the way the Trace works, in order for them to more easily locate Harry, perhaps even to the point of being able to tell exactly who had used magic. As it turned out, however, it wasn't the Trace at all that allowed the D Es to find Harry, it was because he said 'Voldemort', which had been made Taboo by that point. (Which was really very smart on Voldy's part, considering the only people shown to not be afraid of Vodemort's name are Dumbledore (who's dead), Harry, and perhaps certain very high up Order members.)
- Okay, am I the only who is seriously concerned by the fact that the ministry of magic has the ability to track when and where people are using magic? Big Brother, anyone?
- Why on earth did Harry take Hedwig with him in a cage in book 7 when they were doing that clone thing? Or take her with him at all? He could have just sent her away with a letter to keep her safe. What exactly was the cage meant to accomplish? Protect her?! It just seems Rowling put her there so she could kill her off.
- That's how he was trying to keep her safe. She's already been injured in the past when he's sent her off on mail runs—with both Voldemort and the Ministry out to get him, keeping her home is in her best interests. It just sucks that someone decided to kill her anyway.
- Also keep in mind that he had her stored inbetween his knees inside the sidecar, meaning she would have been well protected for flying spells. It was only after the bike spun upside down, causing the cage to fall out, that she became vulnerable.
- Don't forget, all the other Harrys had fake snowy owls in cages. The Death Eaters all know Harry has an owl so sending her off beforehand would look suspicious.
- They sort of resolved this in the movie. Harry lets her fly instead, so none of the other "Harrys" had to have a fake Hedwig. She dies trying to protect Harry.
- One of the few things, in my mind, that the movie ever did better than the book; making Hedwig one more on the long list of those who'd died to protect him.
- Why did Regulus sacrifice himself to retrieve the horcrux? The fact that Kreacher had escaped from his situation before and that elves can apparate with humans alongside them (such as Mundugus) should have told him that it was perfectly possible to leave that place alive with the damn thing, simply by repeating the events of last time; have Kreacher drink the potion, grab the locket, have him drink from the lake, and hold onto him while giving him an order to apparate back home and take Regulus with him. Sure, this would have meant Kreacher would be in horrible pain again, but was it worth his life to insure that didn't happen, when he himself was going to suffer the same pain beforehand? Was he so guilty over his actions that he deliberately decided on a suicidal plan to obtain the horcrux?
- Because Regulus joined the Death Eaters more out of spite than really believing in their Pureblood supremacy BS, andhe regretted it. Also, Kreacher respected his master because, unlike Sirius and everybody else, Regulus treated Kreacher as his equal; you know, the same relationship Harry has with Dobby. Kreacher realizes this, and even if he doesn't admire Potter outright, he starts hating him less and even respects the half-blood for wanting to honor the Black family and making Voldemort pay for (in Kreacher's eyes) hurting his master. Kreacher becomes half-crazy from the paradox of having served his master so well and to the letter that he allowed him to effectively commit suicide, and then left him to die alone and was forbidden from telling anybody.
- Maybe he...didn't want to make his friend, even if he is a house-elf, drink a potion that makes him relive horrible experiences, wish for death, and barely come out alive with nursing? If he had made Kreacher go through that again, a lot of people would have seen that as his crossing the Moral Event Horizon.
- I think Kreacher was much, much more hurt and traumatized by the fact that not only did Regulus die, but that he had to leave him behind as he was being killed. Given the choice between that and the potion, I think Kreacher would have taken the potion in an instant.
- Kreacher may have been willing to do it, but Regulus may not have been wiling to do it to him. It's easier to sacrifice oneself than to inflict that same horror on someone else. Harry certainly wouldn't have done it to Dumbledore if he wasn't explicitly and repeatedly ordered to.
- Regulus was a dead man either way. He stole Voldemort's horcrux, one of (at the time) 5 artifacts that makes sure Voldemort can't die. He also had a tattoo that would lead Voldemort straight to him in the case of defection. Regulus knew he was dead either way, so he sacrificed himself to zombies rather than have the death eaters hunt him down.
- I was under the impression that Reg sacrificed himself specifically to spare his family both the shame of his defection plus the wrath of Voldemort when he discovered his soul-hidey place was gone.
- Which he DIDN'T until mere hours before the Battle of Hogwarts.
- I wonder why Regulus didn't just burn through the potion and the horcrux and the inferi with fiendfyre. If Crabbe -not exactly a stellar student- could cast the fiendfyre spell, if not control it, then Regulus could cast it too. I won't be so arrogant to say he would be able to control it or anything, but he could have went inside the cave, cast it inside the cavern and aimed it at the horcrux island, and then apparated away with Kreacher. He could even have sent Dumbledore or another order member a covert message about there being a fire in this cave, and that it's important Voldemort doesn't find out. Dumbledore would have shown up, put out the fiendfyre (I reckon he's capable of that), and then done some fishing to find out the why the cave was important. Maybe he would figure out that it was the cave Riddle traumatized kiddies in, and othered protection to Regulus or something. I get that I've not laid out a perfect plan, but it has some merit to it, and if Regulus thought it through and considered things carefully, he could have figured out something. I mean he knew what horcruxes were, because he recognized one. It stands to reason he knew how to destroy one, and that he could cast fiendfyre (the Carrows could, and they aren't described as all too skilled). He was capable of something other than what he did.
- Regulus probably thought that the locket would be protected by a poison of some kind, and gave Kreacher orders ahead of time in the likely event of him dying in the process of retrieving the locket. When he was alive but drastically weakened after drinking it, he knew that Voldemort was on the way and was probably unable to countermand his previous order before A) Kreacher left and B) Voldemort arrived to deal with him.
- Why is it that no one has a problem with Draco Malfoy naming his son Scorpius? The family theme-naming is fine with me and I understand that the wizarding world has different naming traditions, but I've never heard any stories about benevolent scorpions.
- Because it's awesome. And hey, Draco's named after dragons, which in the Potterverse tend not to be very benevolent either.
- Draco and Scorpius are also constellations, which is similar to how Sirius and Regulus are named after stars.
- Page 167, Hermione says she has never done a memory charm. However, three chapters ago she stated that she had charmed her parents to move to Australia, assume new identities, and forget their only daughter. Care to explain it to me?
- Possible she used the confundous charm mentioned in book 3, the one that confuses you enough that the Minister will buy the kids thinking Sirius is good. Though thanks for pointing that out to me I forgot about that line.
- She changed their memories, she didn't remove them. Different spells.
- So, after the war was over and Voldemort was dead, did she go back to Australia and save them? If so, would she be able to recreate their memories of her?
- That's not what he meant. There are two types of memory charms, one that destroys the old memory (the one Hermione had never done and presumably much harder) and one that "layers" a new, false memory on top of the old one (the one she did do). No recreation is necessary, she merely undoes the false memory, and the original memories are returned as normal.
- As stated above, there are two different memory spells- Obliviate, which, well, obliterates a memory or else renders it inaccessible (more the latter, as it is stated in Phoenix that Lockhart was getting his memory back), and Confundus, which is what is used on Marietta Edgecombe in Phoenix to lie about the DA meetings, and frequently on Dawlish the auror (notably in Hallows when he gives a separate date for Harry's removal from Privet Drive), and alters memories, or, confounding them. The latter was most likely what Hermione used.
- If Obliviate completely removes memories, why does the Ministry official on the Muggle camping ground-owner in Goblet of Fire? Why wouldn't he realise that he had hours of blank space where a memory should be? Wouldn't modifying/replacing the memory make more sense that just leaving the guy with hours of missed time/blank space that you would expect him to get suspicious of? Also, Harry says a couple of lines later that he "recognized the symptoms of one who had just had their memory modified." So apparantly Harry thinks that Obliviate modifies rather than replaces memories.
- The first time we see Obliviate is from Lockhart who probably intentionally either removed the memories or modified them to make the person believe he did the events. The only reason he completely lost his memory was because of the broken wand and he was intentionally trying to remove their memories. I believe a properly cast Obliviate modifies the memories rather than removing them, which makes more sense in the Muggle's situation as he'll have his memories modified so he'll forget any "irregularities".
- Foaly from Artemis Fowl explains, basically, you brain is very good at completing the gaps and will make up stuff to compensate. Memory is extremely malleable, after all.
- She said she confounded her parents. That doesn't mean she did. My mother has a fragment in a series of HP fragments where Hermione's parents were actually killed by Death Eaters. Hermione lying is more in-character for her than her confounding her parents.
- This troper is intrigued
and would to subscribe to your newsletter. Could you elaborate?
Weasley clock and death
- Fred died in the battle of Hogwarts (as much as I'd like to pretend he didn't.) So what happened to his hand on the clock Mrs. Weasley has, the one that has the name of each Weasley and tells where they are at any given time?
- I guess it might be stuck in "mortal peril" (the last position it was likely in) until somebody removes it, if it is possible. Either that, or the clock is enchanted to permanently vanish the hands of any deceased family members.
- ^That, or it's stuck on "trapped eternally in the otherworldly abyss". It'll switch to either "Living in eternal glory" or "Getting raped by the raging fires of the damned" depending on how the judge rules.
- Perhaps it changed from "Fred" to "Fleur", thus defaulting to the newest member of the Weasley family?
- Or maybe the handle simply fell off, evaporated or (since we are talking about Fred here) exploded?
- A particularly heartbreaking mini-fanfic has this speculation: "But there was one hand that stood on its own. It was separate from all the others, pointing to one word. Lost."
- Did Hermione's parents ever get de-brainwashed? Were they ever confirmed as back in Great Britain or still in Australia, or were they simply never mentioned again?
- Simply never mentioned again as the after events of the finale left them in Australia. It's possible that Hermione went and found them later but unless a Word of God comes out about it we don't know.
- Ctrl+ f "memory damage"
- No, they're currently running a dental office in Melbourne with their adult son, Henry, and teenaged daughter named Hermione (they always wanted a daughter so they can name her that).
- This troper believes that Rowling did confirm that Hermione tracked them down and fixed up their memories.
- Meh. More "Word of God" stuff. Would it have killed her to write the story in such a way that this stuff actually gets mentioned within the books and not in various interviews she gives after the event, therefore giving the impression that she is making it up to cover plot holes...?
- If she did that with everything, the book series would've been twice as long.
- I'm sure they would. But if she considers these thngs she introduces to be important enough to clarify and make sure people know how they were resolved in interviews, then surely they are important enough to be in the book. Lesson of the day? Only introduce stuff you will provide a payoff for.
- No one like plotholes.
- An unresolved subplot is not a plot hole.
- Not mentioning all specific things that happened in between the last chapter and the epilogue is not a plot hole. Stop using that term when it does not apply.
- Still, no-one likes unresolved subplots either.
- Still, people have different tastes and ideas. J.K tries to include resolving of sub-plots, and some will complain about the unnecessary infodump (I know I would)
- She introduced the subplot to explain something no fan ever specifically asks (why did Hermione's parents let her come?), it's not unreasonable to hope that she would resolve this without having to be asked either. While I didn't wonder too much about it (so distracted was I by, you know, the massive deaths that still had me crying), I think the foresight she had to include Hermione's excuse for leaving her parents could (easily) have included the resolution. Then again, she may not have anticipated the fact that people seem to find the use of memory charms disturbing, and so perhaps she completely forgot it where fans that zoom in on that topic were left wondering.
- Hermione said in the book that if she survived the battle against Voldemort, she'd go find her parents and reverse the charm. Since she survived, I believe it's safe to say she tracked them down and unbrainwashed them.
Sleeping the in bag
- Two matters recently came to my attention. They always pitch a tent and camp out for the night, but they happen to have a bag with theoretically limitless space: why don't they tuck that away and stay in THERE!? The other thing is Hagrid: how can he possibly exist? Conception would be quite the task. If his father was the giant, it wouldn't fit. If his mother was, it'd be very very messy.
- The answer to the first question is, really, "How would they get out again?". And what if something happened to the bag while they were inside it? As for the second... his mother was the giantess. This is mentioned in at least two books (Goblet of Fire and Half-Blood Prince). One assumes that Hagrid's father was either extremely well-endowed, or had quite good aim.
- What's the Rumiko Takahashi quote again? "I don't think about it, and neither should you?"
- Just repeat to yourself "It's just a book, I should really just relax".
- Human male midgets can and do father children with women of average height. Likewise, women with gigantism can marry normal-sized men and raise families. The biology works.
- Genitalia in humans tends not to vary too much, even with dwarfism or gigantism entering the picture. Giants being another species who are explicitly described as ridiculously huge, one imagines that their junk is scaled up.
- The problem I had with this is, logistics of the thing aside, why would Mr Hagrid (a wizard) be attracted to Mrs Hagrid? After all we are not talking about a human woman who just happens to be 20feet tall, we are talking about a female member of a species who are described as looking like green/grey mountains with mis-shapen boulders for heads. Certainly doesn't turn my crank and I can't imagine it would for anyone else. Not to mention the probably language barrier given how ostracised giants are....
- Uh, people bang horses and sheep, too. There are always going to be people out there with bizarre fetishes - the only difference here is that the fetishist and his fetish can leave behind a baby, which sheds light on their unusual behavior where a dude might hump cows his entire life and no one else would ever find out about it.
- Perhaps he likes REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY big butts and he can not lie? Other brother's might deny, but when a giant booty shambles in he gets SPRUNG, son...
- Considering the mother ran off after he was born and Mr. Hagrid raised him since then it sounds like it was a REALLY wild one-night stand that ended with a basket on the doorstep.
- There are people who have giantess fetishes in Real Life. Hagrid's father was probably one of them.
- Who says he was attracted to her? She was attracted to him, obviously. If a 20 foot tall, violent monster decides she's into you, she may not take no for an answer. Oh, and as for the genitalia issue, I'd like to point out that among apes, genital size does not correlate to body size, really, at all. An adult gorilla has about twice the mass of an adult human and yet the genitalia are many times smaller. So there's no reason to assume giants and humans are necessarily incompatible in that department.
- The tent had the same properties as the bag. On the outside it looked like a tiny pup tent, but inside it was as big as a 3 bedroom apartment.
- It's not quite the same. The bag is more subject to damage than the tent, what with it being tinier and more fragile.
- Plus, someone could just pick the thing up and walk off with it while they were inside. I doubt any of them would want to go to sleep and wake up to find that some dog dragged them two miles in the opposite direction they were heading.
- Or ever.
- In Half-Blood Prince, Lupin tells Harry that there are no Wizarding royals. Yet when Neville faces Voldemort, Voldemort refers to the Longbottom family as "noble" and urges Neville to join his cause. Has anyone satisfactorily explained what "noble" means here?
- It's a reference to how old the Longbottom family is as a pureblood line. Some pureblood ideals hold that being pureblood means they're above everyone else. It's referenced earlier with the "The Noble and Most Ancient House of Black" that some purebloods think they are socially superior to other familes. Specifically in the Black's case being a Black made some of them think they were royalty. Voldemort was trying to say that Neville is superior to "less pure lines" and hoping he'll surrender to avoid ending a precious pureblood line.
- Moreover, Voldemort grew up among British Muggles in the mid-20th century, so probably shared some of their class consciousness. He might even have intended to institute noble titles among wizarding folk once he took over the world, to formally elevate pureblood families over those with Muggle ancestry.
- The idea of purebloods being nobility/royalty predates Voldemort. The book about pureblood families Hermione reads is called "Nature's Nobility" and Marvolo Gaunt mistakes the sign of the Deathly Hallows for his coat of arms. Also, it seems extremely suspect that Voldemort would seek to apply aspects of Muggle society to the wizarding world, not to mention the fact that his entire view of Muggle society came from a working class orphanage.
- Pottermore has answered this troper's question: In the early 1930s (just as Tom Riddle was entering the Wizarding world), an anonymous author published a directory purporting to identify the most distinguished pureblood families in the British Isles. The Longbottoms were among the "Sacred Twenty-Eight" families.
Surviving with the Horcrux
- So if Harry couldn't die until the Horcrux part of him was exterminated, does this mean that in every other occasion where he nearly gets killed (and there are too many too count)... Harry wouldn't have been killed, anyway?
- Not necessarily. If for instance he'd died from the Basilisk Venom in Chamber he'd have died for real horcrux and all. Any point after Goblet of Fire where Voldemort takes his blood is up in the air depending on the circumstances. The main reason Harry survived though is because of the Elder Wand. Dumbledore had originally planned it so that when it came time Harry would die and that would be it. The plan changed once Draco became the Elder Wand's master and finally when Harry won the wand himself. The wand realized Harry's intentions and thus killed the horcrux in him but left him relatively free from harm, but also thanks to Voldemort's creating something similar to a horcux for Harry by using his blood in his resurection.
- Probably not, except for the basilisk incident. He COULD have gotten his soul sucked out of him in the third book, though, so that would be just as bad. And at any time he appears to be in mortal danger, his friends were usually also at risk of being killed, so he always had something big to lose if not his own life.
- He very well have been able to "die," but possibly his spirit would have continued on in the same hazy, half-dead form that Voldemort's was in until he was able to complete the resurrection spell in Goblet of Fire. However, since Harry likely would not have known * how* to possess others and bring himself back, he would have been stuck in A Fate Worse Than Death.
- Unless Harry was killed by some means that could destroy a horcrux, the horcrux would have been fine. It just would have been a corpse that wouldn't rot instead of a human being. Similarly, if Neville had killed Nagini with any old weapon, Voldemort would have gone from having a live snake horcrux to having a dead snake horcrux ... but Neville used the Sword of Gryffindor, which was capable of destroying both Nagini and horcrux at the same time.
- Your comment about the Sword of Gryffindor actually just gave me a new question, where I had never been bothered by it before... Voldemort destroys the Horcrux in Harry by using 'Avada Kedavra'. But a big portion of the book is trying to find ways to destroy the horcruxes. Why couldn't they have used Avada Kedavra on the inanimate horcruxes? The part of Harry that is ALIVE wasn't impacted by the curse, so apparently it can 'kill' just the pieces of soul, too. And the Trio certainly wouldn't have had any problem getting up the feelings necessary to 'mean' they wanted to kill the horcrux, nor would they be at risk of splitting their own souls because they wouldn't have been killing a person.
- Either they never even thought about it or they didn't think they'd be able to do it. Assuming they thought about it they could have either come to the (possibly mistaken) realization that it wouldn't work properly or they couldn't get the spell right. We're not really sure casting Avada Kedavra on a horcrux would do anything but set it on fire as we've only seen it used on inanimate objects a few times before.
- Ah, but Voldemort did that AK with the Elder Wand — the most powerful wand there is, the only one that was able to repair Harry's. Maybe AK wouldn't work on a Horcrux from a regular wand, just from the Deathstick? Of course, that leaves the question of why Dumbledore didn't give it to the Trio to destroy the Horcruxes. But he did give them the sword, in a way...and he felt (correctly) that the wand was extremely dangerous in the wrong hands.
- The Deathstick cannot be given willingly. It will only reveal its full potential if the new owner subdues the old one, without any agreements between them and without giveaways.
- Additionally, Avada Kedavra takes a great deal of power to perform. False-Moody says in the fourth book that the whole class could have pointed their wands at him and said the words and virtually nothing would have happened.
- I always assumed that the magic that protects Horcruxes doesn't work against the one that made them.
- It's not because of being a horcrux that he couldn't die. It's the Blood Magic - Harry could return as long as Voldemort was alive with Harrys blood in his veins. And, I guess, Voldemort should be the one to kill him, I'm not sure here. So, Dumbledore's plan changed after Voldemort got resurrected - remember the "triumph in his eyes" when he heard about Voldemort using Harry's blood. After that point, dumbledore was pretty sure that Harry would have a choice to go on or stay after being "killed" by Voldemort.
- Whatever happened to that Firebolt? During the airborne chase, the broomstick spins to the ground. Wouldn't there be some chance of a little Muggle boy happening to find the broom, stuck in his backyard tree- then later, playing horsie on it, and propelling himself into the ceiling or something?
- Even the wizard kids have to be taught how to use broomsticks before they can fly. It seems likely that it would just be a broom with delusions of grandeur in the hands of a Muggle. Until Harry casts accio Firebolt and it flies back to its master.
- That's a good point. Of course, Neville didn't know beans about broomsticks but broke his wrist anyway. So yeah...
- Neville is also a wizard with significant inborn magical abilities. WE also saw that brooms are not easy to command for the inexperienced even when trying way back during their first lesson. I would not be surprised to find out that brooms are sort of like wands, inherently magical but primary focus the weilder's natural power. So in the hands of a Muggle a broom is useless, otherwise they'd be illegal.
- Why is EVERY good guy such a pussy? They have a perfect chance to stop Tom "Voldemort Hitler Dracula" Riddle's army with the killing curse, yet they just knock them out. I don't think it's unforgivable when it's used to stop the freaking holocaust? That's like having the choice of shooting a Nazi General in the face with an 50 caliber rifle or hitting him on the head with a flower pot and taking option 2 because you don't want his blood on your hands (possibly ensuring the deaths of 1,000 innocent people).
- Godwin's Law. Seriously though use of the Killing Curse has more effects on wizards than initially thought. It's up in the air but apparently a fully cast Avada Kevada can shatter the user's soul even if they're not making Horcruxes. It's generally thought by the public that only really bad people can use it as you really have to want that person dead to successfully cast it. On the line in the middle of a fight you might have a last minute regret doing all the syllables putting you in a tight spot and wasted magic and time.
- A: There are plenty of ways to kill someone with magic; Incendio, etc. The problem with using the Killing Curse is that it literally does nothing other than kill someone; QED from the Christian perspective Rowling seems to be writing from, it rips a person's soul out of his body, and seems to powered by hatred rather than just anger or self-preservation. Also, it's been bugging me how many entries here don't seem to distinguish between murder and self-defense when they say that killing rips the soul apart.
- A: As Dumbledore says, murder is not as easy as the innocent believe. It's easy enough to say you would kill someone in a certain circumstance, it's quite another to experience it. B: Not wanting to kill people doesn't make someone a "pussy" it makes them a person with a basic respect for human life. Which alone makes that person far superior to a Death Eater.
- Yeah, I'm really going to respect the value of the lives of blood supremacists. Most people tend to believe that the act of murder or willing complicity in same forsakes one's right to life.
- "The power of a soul untarnished and whole" was kind of what gave the good guys power over the bad. Dumbledore pointed out that murder breaks the soul and Voldemort was all too happy to rip his apart.
- When? At the beginning? The implication is that some of them do use the Killing Curse—Remus, at the very least, admonishes Harry for not being willing to risk the lives of enemy combatants, and Aurors were authorized to kill people during the first war.
- It's established that you have to really want to honestly and truly cast any of the Unforgivables. This means that in order for any of the good guys to use the Killing Curse, they'd have to really, really want to murder someone. And somehow, this troper doubts that "I'm killing this person to stop them, even though I don't want to kill at all" would count.
- It's also kinda possible to kill people without using an Unforgivable Curse (and thus skipping over all the "you must really mean it" and "your soul will be shredded" risks). Point your wand at someone's head and say "Reducto" and see what happens.
- Which makes me still wonder why Harry used Cruciatus instead of (say) Sectumsempera on Carrow.
- Exactly. There are lethal spells other than the Unforgivables, and its not "murder" to shoot back at the people trying to kill you in a war.
- Tons of lethal "forgivables"... the one I would have liked to try out was Bombarda; that would be like bringing in heavy artillery. Also: Some WMG here, but does anyone think that Voldemort would be affected by the Patronus Charm? Not enough to kill him or defeat him like it does to Dementors, but it seems really effective at destroying souless evil creatures, and that is Voldy to a T.
- Maybe no one simply thought of using Avada Kedavra. It's something very few people have ever used, let alone on a regular basis, so it probably would be much further down the list of spells that occur to your average witch or wizard in a combat situation. Stunners and the like are much more consistently practiced, so it makes sense that the good guys would default to them under duress rather than attempt a spell few - if any - of them have ever used.
- What happened to Voldemort's body? His soul (or what remains of it) is trapped in Limbo, and the bodies of the Death Eaters are briefly mentioned as being set aside in an old classroom. But where is his final resting place?
- It's mentioned that they buried him in the school grounds.
- Did they? Despite knowing that it was an unprecedented privilege to allow Dumbledore be buried there?
- Does Harry have a mullet? Because I remember reading something about him having "hair down to his shoulders," and that would so FREAKIN' AWESOME!
- I have hair down to my shoulders, do I have a mullet? No, thank God.
- A mullet is a specific haircut. Harry(and probably a lot of the others hiding in the wilderness at the time) simply hadn't been able to go and get a haircut.
- During the trios' avoiding-capture-picnic they are constantly searching for food: buying it from supermarkets via the cloak or eating mushrooms and the like. Now I know that there is this rule of "no summoning eatery" but there is a way to extend already existent food. Why by Merlin's beard did they not do that?!
- Hermione mentioned that it was possible to make more food if they already had some. The one possible explanation was that none of them actually knew how to do it. The only reason given in the book - very sarcastically by Ron - was that the food that they had with them was so bad that there was no desire to make more of it. As for why they didn't just Summon food from inside of a house or something, they'd probably be worried that someone would notice food zooming around places and they'd be found.
- They spent a whole summer preparing for the quest. How come they didn't gathered a stash of provision either in the Burrow or in Hermione's Bag of Holding?
- This troper always assumed that they did, but Hermione unpacked it at Grimmauld Place.
- I'm fairly certain Hermione stated that she had food, but she took it out because she assumed they'd come back to Grimmauld Place after their infiltration of the Ministry.
- The "make more food if you have some" is what makes you scratch your head most. Hit the dumpster of ANY resturaunt and you're sure to find a bit of clean food if you're willing to lower your standards, or buy ONE 99-cent cheeseburger and everyone should be well-fed!
- Perhaps the extending of the food you have also duplicates the mould etc. So, one cheeseburger would only last a day or two duplicated, before it becomes completely inedible. Also, would you really want to eat cheeseburgers for every meal for an indefinite amount of time?
- Actually I wouldn't mind eating the same thing for every meal of every day, I've attempted it but my school serves something different for lunch everyday.
- Not to mention that if the choices are 'cheeseburgers for every meal' and 'go hungry', bring on the cheeseburgers! Look, I'm living in a tent in the damn woods while an enemy army is out searching for my ass. If I've got to have the same Happy Meal breakfast, lunch, and dinner every day, I'll still be happy just to not be having to put up with MREs.
- After a couple of days boiling stones for soup stock and gnawing on sticks, even MREs will start to taste good. Odds are that Hermione packed a stock of food stuffs, but they ran out over time. Remember, they were camping for most of a year. There was only so much food she could get her hands on while at the Burrow, and only so much of it has a shelf life of forever. Even if she started stocking up before that, it's unlikely she would have been able to get ahold of a year's worth of military rations or some other long-term food supply on the income of a 17 year old girl.
- Of course, we're still stuck with the objection that even after the Trio are hungry enough to start resorting to theft (witness them 'borrowing' those pies from that farmhouse or whatnot), they still don't remotely take advantage of their opportunities. Once I've decided I'm hungry enough to steal food, I'm going to apparate into the middle of a supermarket at 3am and start emptying shelves into my Bottomless Bag. If I run into any staff members doing an overnight stocktake... Stupefy. Obliviate.
- In the earlier books, the Unforgivables are, well, unforgivable. The good guys don't use them, and it was a sign that Crouch had been getting as bad as the Death Eaters that his people had used them. Fast forward two books, and we have the good guys using both Crucio (successfully!) and Imperio. I'm not complaining that the good guys aren't perfect; I'm complaining that this change is never mentioned. There's no sort of "Look how far we've fallen" or attempt at justification or guilt or anything to mark that the good guys are suddenly using spells that are - or were - Unforgivable. Why?
- Crouch used it to round up criminals: even though they might have been Death Eaters, Voldemort wasn't in power and they weren't at war. Since the return of Voldemort however, it is a war, and hence the difference.
- It's still bad writing to never mention this major change in additude toward the Unforgivables.
- No, it isn't. First of all, "unforgivable" is not just a fancy word - it's a legal status. It's the wizarding court that didn't forgive them. Since the whole goverment is corrupted in DH Harry and Co are forgivable for not giving two strokes of a dead dog's cock about it. Secondly, the curses are nor equaly bad: Imperious is obviously the least severe and neither Harry nor McGonagall use it to force people do any embarrassing stuff. As for Harry's Cruciatus, keep in mind that Amicus tormented the school for a year and was willing to set children up under Voldemort's wrath just to save his cowardly hide. Oh yeas, and he spit on McGonagall. Harry just gave in to a more sinister but still momentary impulse than the one with Bellatrix, that is all. And anyway, with Voldemort approaching and one Horcrux still not found it's not as if they were in any position to take to psychological self-analysis and "What have we become" monologues. It would've just broken the pacing of the scene.
- The situation has drastically changed. It's like murder is unforgivable, but a soldier killing an enemy combatant in wartime is no longer murder. I don't think the author has to write a justification for it. It's subjective of course, but sometimes, less is more, and most good books don't spell everything out.
- The most simple explanation is that the law has officially been changed at this point. The Ministry is now being controlled by Voldemort and one of the changes he's made is that the Unforgiveable curses are no longer illegal. Remember at Hogwarts, students are encouraged to use these curse on other students for practice now. Technically, Harry's use of the Imperius and Cruciatus curses in book seven is not illegal at this point.
- Except that Harry used Crucio on Bellatrix in Order of the Phoenix, before Voldemort took control of the ministry (Fudge was still in power).
- Illegal and immoral are two very different things. Just because torturing someone in a way that canonically requires you to enjoy it or controlling someone's mind is legal doesn't mean it's moral. And there was never, at any point, room for a discussion or at least a mention of this important change in philosophy? Come on.
- Desperate times call for desperate measures. When they used the Imperius, it was in the middle of an unprecedented break-in during which there was no time to stop and go, "Hey, what are you doing?" And afterwards, since their unprecedented and heretofore IMPOSSIBLE break-in had actually been successful, all it proved was using extreme measures was successful in an extreme circumstance, and nobody was complaining. This Troper actually found it more realistic if, after the break-in, none of the trio was comfortable sitting and going, "So, who wants to talk about that Imperius curse we just used and how horrible it was?" and everyone just wanted to move on from it. It's easy to set absolutes for "This is what we will never do" when everything's fine and dandy and there's a safety net to catch you when you fall, but when your back's against the wall, you do whatever it takes. That said, when forced to resort to something truly unpleasant, sometimes you just want to put it behind you.
- That is not the point. Having to resort in something morally ambiguous/wrong because there is no other choice is fine, as log it is acknowledge this was a bad thing to do, but there were no other way. The problem is that the entire series kept saying how evil the Unforgivable were and how bad is to use them, but suddenly, in the last book it is not an issue anymore. There is no What the Hell, Hero? moment, no questioning if it was the right thing, nothing. It is like the Unforgivable were suddenly OK since it is the heroes who were using.
- No, it's not. It's clear that the heroes have descended into pretty morally ambiguous territory. It doesn't take the author beating the reader over the head with that message to figure it out. The fact that Harry was able to successfully use the Cruciatus curse at all shows that he's in a really dark place. McGonagall having a conversation with him to the effect of, "Gosh, Harry, I can see you're obviously filled with inner turmoil!" "Yeah, professor, that act I just committed was really morally ambiguous!" would have been stupid.
- Imperio was needed to get into Gringotts. Crucio didn't have any real purpose and it doesn't get the excuse of "desperate times call for desperate measures". I get that Harry was angry at Amycus, and that the latter had been torturing students and spat at McGonagall, but if you can't expect the heroes to behave differently, what makes the difference between the heroes and those they fight? This isn't a simple "flawed" moment-it's torture. Cruciatus requires you to want to torment, and it's Harry who does that, I can see why people wanted to see a paragraph of reflection or a What the Hell, Hero?.
Room of requirement and Diadem
- Voldemort hid the diadem in the Room of Requirements some 20 years before the events of the books. He was adamantly sure that he was the only one who'd EVER discovered the room. Uhm, is Rowling implying that all those mountains of stuff accumulated there in mere 20 or so years and that nobody in the long history of Hogwarts had ever found it before?!
- It depends largely on what he thought to open the room with. If he thought "I need someplace that no one has been before" he'd get an empty room to store the diadem. The room appears differently to different people and changes drastically in your word usage.
- Fair enough. So, how did the diadem end up in the common storage then?
- He's very vain. I'm sure he expected all of that stuff to have been magically generated as a way to hide the diadem, and I'm sure some of it was magically generated at one point or another.
- My interpretation was that Voldemort assumed he was the only person who knew the Room of Requirement could be summoned at will. Every single other person who ever came across the room until the DA stumbled into it completely by chance and never worked out that it could be done again. This is shown as another sign of Voldemort's arrogance, since he never realized that the House Elves were fully aware of the room.
- This is another thing. How can you stumble upon a room that requires you to walk past it three time thinking about what exactly do you need, before the door even appears? What are the odds of that happening by chance?
- Simple, Take a student walking around the Seventh Floor, have them either wander aimlessly or just pacing back and forth while they reflect stuff, perhaps absentmindedly thinking about a need, then seeing a random door you haven't seen before. How many students go to Hogwarts?
- I've always thought that everyone has misunderstood the 'Room of Lost Things'. Voldemort didn't hide anything there at all, the same way that no one carted the broken vanishing cabinet back there. The 'Room of Lost Things' is just where real things go that you leave in the Room of Requirement, in any configuration it's in. You leave a book in the DA room, and turn off the room, it's in the Room of Lost Things, at least until you bring the DA room back. And we know the House Elves use it as a disposal, so most of the stuff in the 'Room of Lost Things' was just left there. What Room Voldemort thought he was leaving it is is an interesting question, perhaps he though the he found the Secret Throne Room for the Heir of Slytherin or something and left the Diadem there. (What might be a hilarious idea is that he left it somewhere else, the House Elves found it, and threw it away.)
- I've always thought that the diadem was never hidden in the Room of Requirement in the first place. Harry wanted ''The room where everything was hidden". My interpretation is that everything that had ever been hidden in Hogwarts, including the diadem, appeared there. Which brings us to the question: Why didn't Harry just ask for the room with the diadem in it so he wouldn't have to do any searching.
- *Sigh* Because he's an idiot.
- Or, you know, because he had remembered seeing the diadem before, when he hid his Potions book - he had used it to put on top of the wig so that he would find the Potions book again - so naturally he wanted to get back into the same room where he had seen it before. And he didn't exactly have a lot of time to come up with an alternative way of wording his request so that the room would only show the diamond.
- Right. "I need a room that has in it only the diadem that I put on the wig last year, when I was inside." Yeah, that would've taken a lot more time than searching for the damned thing.
- It's actually mentioned in the book itself, when the trio enters the Room of Requirement. "Look at all this stuff! Did Voldemort REALLY think he was the only one to have found this room?"
- Shouldn't Voldemort become a ghost? I mean, it's people who fear death who come back as ghosts, right?
- He became that screaming baby-from-hell thing in the ethereal King Cross. There wasn't enough soul in him for a whole ghost.
- That was a remarkably reasonable, satisfying answer for this page.
- Just had a case of literal Fridge Logic, how come Harry can still see at this point in the series. If you need glasses at that young, your eyesight will get progressively worse as you age and there is never indication of Harry getting a stronger prescription. Wouldn't he be blind as a bat by now?
- Glasses do not have a negative or progressive affect on eyesight. That's just an old wives tale. The natural progression of nearsightedness means that it progressively gets worse on its own during the childhood/teen/young adult years, then it reaches a plateau only to start going in the other direction during middle age/old age, meaning that someone can be nearsighted as a child and farsighted as an old man. And again, let me reiterate that this has absolutely nothing to do with the presence of prescription eye wear.
- It's actually a bit more vague than that as the Dursley's only ever gave him glasses out of a bargin bin and I doubt they'd have checked the prescription very often (if ever) even at that young of an age. It depends on his eyesight but in some cases if someone gets stronger prescriptions regularly then their eyes get lazy and deteriorate faster. It's possible he's on the low end of his glasses and simply has adjusted to being able to see well enough (plus there's always magic).
- This troper had glasses in the third grade (age eight, so probably not too far off from Harry) and is now 18, yet I got my last prescription at 12. Eyesight deterioration varies incredibly widely between individuals, so it's not inconceivable that Harry got his last pair at ten. I could be totally wrong, this is experience over medical knowledge talking. Probably more accurate to the real reason though, this is a book about wizards and magic and the fight against evil. Do you really want to read about Harry's trip to the eye doctor? Eyeglasses are good distinguishing features, but to an author? Just another feature unless they get lost or broken. That eye doctor trip might well happen, just offscreen and JKR didn't think it was worth a throwaway line.
- Are you serious? Not everyone who has glasses as a kid ends up going blind. Especially not by the time they're seventeen. I wouldn't worry about it.
- I think what really should bug in this aspect is how come Harry never attempted to fix his eyesight in all those years?! Puny muggles can do that but mighty wizards with abilities to grow bones ab initio and heal near-lethal wounds can't?
- 1) Sure, maybe they just can't. Magic can't do everything. Lots of characters wear glasses, including Dumbledore, a contender for most powerful wizard in the world. 2) Spells for altering your body are risky — remember Eloise Midgen's nose. 3) Even if we assume that it can be done and done safely, it would presumably take a specialist, so when was Harry supposed to go to one? Most people who have permanent nonessential surgery don't do it while they're still kids in school. 4) If all that isn't enough, maybe Harry is just fine with wearing glasses, for God's sake. It's not a prohibitively debilitating handicap. I can't believe this is even being asked.
- First, Magic seems to have a unique interaction with eyes. I think they mention at one point that Dragons are almost completely invulnerable to magic except for the eyes. Second, giving a character a physical flaw like that is humanizing. Harry Potter is a boy who can wave a wand and create fire, adding flaws like his bad attitude in Books 5 and 6 and his eyesight make him easier to relate to.
- This troper's eyesight has actually improved as he gets older
- Dumbledore has Snape pass the sword to Harry in a wildly convoluted way so that if Voldemort reads Snape's mind he doesn't learn about it (apparently Snape had a hefty explanation ready of why he put a sword in a frozen lake in the middle of the forest). But wait, isn't he worried that if Voldemort reads Snape's mind he might learn that Snape'd been giving him the go-round for the past twenty years?
- Page 689: Dumbledore is concerned that Voldemort would learn this from reading Harry's mind, not Snape's.
- My bad. But I thought it was established that reading Harry's mind causes Voldemort excruciating pain and in an earlier conversation with Snape Dumbledore assumed with confidence that Voldemort wouldn't try it again.
- Wrong. Dumbledore said that possessing Harry caused Voldy excruciating pain. He didn't say squat about infiltrating his mind, otherwise he couldn't have 1) implanted the false vision of Sirius at the Ministry, and 2) read Harry's mind when he arrived and bailed Bellatrix, without both things being overly painful.
- It wouldn't be too hard to suspect that Voldemort could order someone else to look into Harry's mind or another loyal death eater might find out on accident and pass it onto Voldemort. It was simply Dumbledore being overly cautious.
- Presumably they would have tried to be equally careful about Snape's other doings — and remember, he's very good at Occlumency. And at any rate, from what we've seen of Legilimency it only gives you images, not feelings or thoughts, and since Voldemort thought Snape was The Mole for him, Snape would have had a plausible excuse for sitting in on meetings of the Order and stuff like that, as long as he was able to withhold or misrepresent the details. And beyond that, well, yeah, I'm sure they were worried, but that's what made it a brave thing to do.
- Snape does have a Pensieve. Possibly he stripped any thoughts that would betray his status as The Mole from his mind before any face-to-face meeting with Voldemort, causing himself to genuinely think he was loyal to the Death Eaters until he returned to his office and re-installed those extracted thoughts and memories.
- Another factor in the convoluted passing down of the sword was that, according to Dumbledore's portrait, there were specific conditions for being able to take the sword in the first place, a test of courage or time of need.
- Dumbledore couldn't give Harry the sword, but what about the Basilisk's fangs? He could safely give them to Harry back in the time of HBP, couldn't he?
- He could have suggested Harry could have gone back into the chamber for a basilisk fang if the one that was stabbed into the diary had run out of venom but there's a lot we don't know about the fangs. For instance taking them and then not using them might waste the venom that was storred in the fang when it died. It was probably easier just to have the sword passed on in secret.
- Where is the limit of magic? Voldemort tabooes his name with a curse that destroys every magical protection to anybody that says it. Why not curse the word "hello"? Why not the atmosphere to kill every muggle that breathes it? Why not make an Imperius curse to everybody, or make the death eaters invulnerable to all magic and weapons?
- The Taboo was practically (but, and this is the important part, not quite) Deep Magic. It was very old, and very powerful, and the only two things it does are cut through (not batter down) any guarding spells that are weaker than it and act as a homing beacon for the person who cast it. Casting it on a word for which you are not on the watch would be a waste of effort, unless you knew exactly where your target was and just needed to get through a less powerful but still pretty darn strong spell to get at them and you didn't mind millions upon millions of false alarms. I think it may have also been limited to Great Britain, though I doubt that's canon. You can't curse the air or use an imperius curse on everybody because it takes too much power and (in the case of the imperius curse) focus, and you can't curse the air to kill muggles because it would be incredibly difficult to write and cast a spell with both the power and finesse to kill everybody, but only kill nonwizard humans, and because nobody insane enough to try has thought of, attempted, and succeeded at it.
- Didn't he do this specifically to ferret out Harry's (and in the first war, Dumbledore's) whereabouts? Only a small handful of people had the balls to use the name after all, and I'm sure it had to have worked to raid wherever the old Order headquarters were located.
- It might be a small detail, but it still bugs me... a lot. When the trio infiltrate the Ministry and Harry polyjuices into Runcorn they do not know who he is, Harry has not seen him... yet he is able to imitate his voice flawlessly.
- The thing about your voice staying the same once you've taken the polyjuice potion was only in the movie. In Chamber of Secrets it is explicitly stated that harry and ron's voices turn into Crabbe and Goyle's. This turns into Fridge Logic for me when you consider that Harry states in Deathly Hallows that he had never heard Goyle or Crabbe's voice (I forget which) before they were all in the Room of Requirement during the battle of Hogwarts.
- That was just Lampshade Hanging on the fact that, despite being pretty big characters for seven books, those two never spoke at all until that point.
- It still doesn't explain why Harry was suprised when he heard him speak, though he should have heard it when they used the Polyjuice Potion.
- You're remembering incorrectly. The exact quote is this: "We're gonna be rewarded," said Crabbe: His voice was surprisingly soft for such an enormous person; Harry had hardly ever heard him speak before.
- You hear your voice differently to how other people hear it, because the sound is transmitted to your ear through the skull. So hearing Crabbe's voice while Polyjuiced into him isn't the same as hearing it while he's talking to you.
- Not forgetting that Crabbe had been in all of Harry's potions and Care of Magical Creatures classes — surely Crabbe was called on to speak at some point?
- Don't forget the fact that Crabbe was really, really, idiotic—the teachers probably gave up on him early on, but before then, Harry could've heard him speak once or twice in class—which is why he hardly ever heard him before, but not never—he apparently heard him speak once or twice before, it just wasn't recorded in the books for comedic effect.
- It's possible that the Trio hearing being able to speak in their own voices during the use of Polyjuice potion in the movies is just so we don't get confused about who's who. Perhaps to everyone else their voices sound like those they are portraying, such as with Crouch Jr. impersonating Moody in the fourth film.
- Two points with the voices. Firstly, the Polyjuice incident happened when Crabbe was twelve or thirteen, and he is now seventeen or eighteen. Voices do change during that time. Secondly, your speech isn't just about the sound your larynx produces; you do have some choice in the matter: being a slow talker versus a fast talker, or, in Crabbe's case, speaking very loudly versus very softly.
- Did Ariana Dumbledore get raped by the muggles when she was 6? I know it wasn't ever elaborated on more than "attack", but unless it was that bad it doesn't seem like anything less than rape would cause her to be that messed up and cause Percival to want to murder them, risking arrest in the process.
- This is a likely scenario however depending on how badly she was beaten (throwing stones, etc) it's entirely possible she was just hurt very badly but not raped. It's possible you'd be dramatized too if you were beaten to an inch of your life just for some accidental magic.
- I thought she sustained physical brain damage.
- While I'm pretty certain that some kind of sexual harassment was involved, I doubt that it was more than inapproriate touching. I think that it was mostly physical violence and psychological torment.
- I think that she was gang-raped by the Muggle boys, not only because of the horribly traumatic repercussions of being raped, but because of something else I've noticed throughout the series. There are a lot of descriptions of child abuse in the books by parents or guardians or other authorities. Harry is verbally and emotionally abused by his aunt and uncle, who sit by while Dudley physically harms him. Neville is dropped out of a window by his grandfather, who is also later mercilessly verbally abused by Snape. Snape, in turn, is neglected as a child and constantly witnesses his parents fighting, which upsets and terrifies him. The students at Hogwarts are tortured and beaten by the Carrows. All the forms of child abuse save one are there—physical abuse, emotional abuse, neglect, and verbal abuse (all of which are described, rather than just mentioned in passing). The only form of child abuse that is never mentioned is sexual abuse. The fact that we are never told any details of the form this attack on Ariana took leads me to believe that she was raped as well as being beaten. Rowling does not shy away from descriptions of abuse that many of the children in the books are forced to endure, and I think that if Ariana had just been horribly beaten by the Muggles, she would have said so, since (as stated previously) there are a lot of descriptions of physical torment. But the nature of her attack remains ambiguous. So I think that yes, they gang-raped her.
- I can't imagine that she was raped. Remember, the boys were scared of her and thought she was trying to kill them. They simply saw her doing things that weren't possible and attacked her. I could easily see a six year old being traumitized from serious beating, not to mention the blows to the head probably caused brain damage. Besides, if I thought something wanted to kill me, I probably would look for "places" to stick my most sensitive organ.
- The only explanations I can come up with for a rape/sexual assault being so vaguely described is A. JKR was not about to describe a sexual assault to young readers, B. Aberforth *was* born and largely raised in a time when treatment of women was absolutely horrific by modern standards, and while things seem to have been much better for witches, the Dumbledores did live among Muggles at the time, and Aberforth may have seen a child being raped as a black mark on the family's reputation (at some point; even in the 1990s, he still might not have been comfortable outright stating that his sister was raped at the age of 6 to a bunch of total strangers). But that's a major stretch, and without any confirmation from Word of God despite all of the conjecture, I'm going to say Ariana was violently beaten, suffered brain damage, and developed a severe case of PTSD which caused her magic to malfunction later.
- Voldemort trusting Snape. I mean, presumably, Voldemort uses Legilimency on all his Death Eaters to hear the truth. Sure, we know that Snape is a very accomplished Occlumens, but do you think Voldemort would really just shrug after being blocked by Snapes Occlumency? I imagine that he would be furious that Snape was hiding something (and I believe Dumbledore said that false memories are easy to notice and it's also obvious when someone is using Occlumency, so that's not an argument). So why didn't Voldemort FORCE Snape into letting down his guard?
- Well, Narcissa did lied to him that Harry was dead didn't she? So either V was more scary looks and crazy talks then actual craft or he only used telepathy on those he already suspected. Apparently, Snape was very good in NOT raising such suspisions.
- The official excuse is that Dumbledore is also a Legilimens.
- Snape could have well fooled Voldemort by focusing on all of his negative emotions whenever he was scanned, his hate for Harry, his resentment of Dumbledore... with Snapes skill with Occlumency he could have fooled Voldemort into thinking that was all there is.
- Remember that he is a Triple Agent, with both Dumbledore and Voldemort believing he's on their side; he could very easily have excused every action he took that Voldemort could see. Sitting in on Order meetings? He's supposed to do that. Spying on Malfoy for Dumbledore? Of course D would ask, and Snape would have to do it. The ring horcrux? It led to Dumbledore's death. By simple virtue of being a member of the Order for Voldemort, Snape is inherently justified in everything he does as a member of the Order. The only danger that poses to V is where Snape's true loyalties lie, and he proved those well and fine when he killed Dumbledore.
- I don't want to spoil Book 7 for you, but when you get to the chapter "The Prince's Tale" you'll find out why Snape really killed Dumbledore. It was because Dumbledore asked him to. Snape was a good guy after all.
- ... Which has no bearing on their point. They meant that in Voldemort's POV, Snape proved his loyalty by killing Dumbledore. We know better, and that's why he's referred to as a triple agent rather than a double agent, as the poster above pointed out.
- If Voldemort had supposedly invested so much time and effort in protecting his Horcruxes, why didn't he install a magical alarm system that activates every time anyone enters the hiding place? Having something that says, "Hey moron, someone's in your top secret hidey-place, get over here and kill someone" would be really useful. He believed that he could feel if the Horcruxes were destroyed, sure, but what about stolen? He doesn't want that to happen either.
- He doesn't even think anyone could ever know, much less actually find them, much less steal them, much less destroy them. He's proud. He thinks he's invincible. Mention a burgular alarm to him, and he'll laugh in your face. And, then probably kill you.
- But he does bother to put traps around the locket Horcrux; he'd have no need to place traps if he thought it'd never be found. He might have thought that no one would ever get past the traps, but then why not put alarms on the non-trapped Horcruxes?
- The locket was one of his first Horcruxes, so he was still worried about keeping it as secure as possible. Once he had five of the things, each became comparatively less valuable, because the odds of anyone finding all of them were so low.
- Bill is the Secret Keeper for Shell Cottage, i.e. you can be the secret keeper for a Fidelus Charm protecting you and your location. So why wasn't James or Lily the Secret Keeper for their house in Godric's Hollow? Why did they rely on someone else?
- That...is a good question.
- It was the one that bugged readers since they first learned of the Fidelus Charm. The best way to hide a secret would be to have the secret keeper be under protection of the same secret. Bill's case means that the theory that the secret keeper couldn't be someone protected by the secret was debunked. We can assume it was plot induced stupidity or Bill is a special case. It's possible since he's a curse breaker he (or someone else) discovered something new about the Fidelus Charm since the Potter's case (it has been about 15 years).
- If nothing else, the Potters' deaths would provide the impetus to keep researching the Fidelius Charm. The book shows that even common magic can be improved upon, Snape was re-writing his potions textbook in his spare time.
- Dumbledore was the Secret Keeper for 12 Grimmauld Place. Bill is the Secret Keeper for Shell Cottage. Peter is described as the Secret Keeper for the Potters. As in, the people, presumably no matter where they were. Which I imagine is safer, provided you have someone you can trust, but enchanting a person rather than a place probably complicates things. For one thing, Bill could just leave Shell Cottage and say, "Hey, there's Shell Cottage, it's so rad." But if James was protecting the location of himself, then going up to a stranger and going, "Hey, I'm here!" wouldn't do much, because the Fidelius Charm would protect him from being seen in the first place.
- So then why didn't James become Secret Keeper for Lily and Harry and Lily for James? I get that the charm is difficult to produce but we're talking lives here.
- I think the point was that you can't be the secret keeper for yourself, possibly as a rule of how the spell works, or else just because then you'd be permanently hidden and could never reveal yourself to anyone again. You'd completely drop off the radar and basically cease to exist as far as everyone else knew! In other words, the target of the spell matters. If it's a place being protected, anyone can keep the secret, but if it's a person, the people being protected cannot be the keeper.
- Which doesn't explain how anyone can see Harry the first 17 years of his life, before Pettigrew dies. Hagrid shouldn't have even been able to find him in the rubble of the house, as the fact no one knew Pettigrew was the Secret-Keeper requires that no third parties were told, or they surely would have spoke up when Sirius was accused.
- Peter's shouting "Lily and James: how could you?!", or words to that effect, at Sirius was probably enough to let Sirius and any nearby Muggles in on the Secret. After blowing up the street and fleeing, Pettigrew would've let the Fidelius Charm lapse, ensuring that Sirius couldn't prove his innocence by demonstrating how he couldn't share the Potters' Secret with others.
- The ideal solution would have been to have one of the Potters be the Secret Keeper for the Longbottoms and one of the Longbottoms be the Secret Keeper for the Potters. Or they could have just used Dumbledore... canonically, he volunteered for the job and James & Lily turned him down.
- New Bug: why was Ron able to tell Dobby about Shell Cottage if Bill's the secret keeper? More importantly, in such a way that Harry can understand him well enough for it to be spelled out in the book?
- The Fidelius Charm wasn't placed on Shell Cottage until after the escape from Malfoy Manor, and as a direct result of same. The Charm wasn't necessary until it was known to the Death Eaters that Ron was aiding Harry and not sick at home.
- Above theory doesn't hold. Consider this exchange:
Harry: How are they protected?
Bill: Fidelius Charm. Dad's Secret-Keeper. And we've done it on this cottage too; I'm Secret-Keeper here. None of us can go to work, but that's hardly the most important thing now. Once Ollivander and Griphook are well enough, we'll move them to Muriel's too. There isn't much room here, but she's got plenty. [...]
- (Page 482, American Scholastic hardcover release.) Bill explicitly talks about the Fidelius Charm having been performed previously on the cottage. The way he speaks implies that it wasn't done in reaction to the little scene at Malfoy Manor, but that it's been there for a while to keep everyone protected (at the very minimum, since the moment Ginny got back home for her Easter holidays). Not to mention, it adds yet another hole to the whole explanation of the innards of the Fidelius Charm: If Arthur Weasley was the Secret-Keeper of Muriel Weasley's house, how can Bill speak so openly of the place? According to Snape in HBP, someone who's not a Secret-Keeper cannot speak the name of a place that's been Fideliused.
- Except Snape's wrong. Harry is able to open a flue connection to Grimmauld Place in Order of the Phoenix, which he does the normal way, by speaking the name. It seems more likely that other people simply won't understand him if they did overhear him. (Which raises the interesting point that Snape could have led an invasion of Death Eaters there at any time, even before Dumbledore died. He just had to send people via flue.)
- He was not wrong. He was deliberately lying to Voldemort.
- Why didn't the Taboo have an effect at Grimmauld Place? I mean, it was obviously working before that because it caught them on Tottenham Court Road, and they said Voldemort many times while in Grimmauld Place. Were the protective charms just too powerful at the place to be broken then? And then that makes you ask, what were those remarkably powerful spells and how come Hermione couldn't use them on the tent?
- Because the spell is the Fidelus Charm, and maybe Hermione doesn't know how to use it? Grimmauld Place had Secret Keepers; the Death Eaters knew someone was in there but they couldn't get in.
- That's right, I forgot that the Fidelius Charm was on the house.
- The Potters would need to leave the house at some point, at which point they would be set upon by Voldemort himself looking for Harry. By giving someone on the outside the secret, he can bring them food and such. Bill isn't directly in Voldemort's sights the way James or Lily would have been, so he can still leave the house for supplies or whatever(IIRC he keeps his job during DH).
- So why not have Dumbledore be the secret keeper? One of your best friend from school isn't exactly an "under the radar" choice, so why not go with the big gun that no Death Eater (probably even Voldemort himself) would risk facing?
- That was probably Dumbledore's reasoning as well, since he is specifically mentioned to have offered being the Potters' Secret-Keeper. However, they turned him down; maybe they thought he had enough on his plate already and would be better using his strength at protecting those who didn't have good friends willing to die for them. The "deception" thing is specifically mentioned to be Sirius's idea; he wanted the Death Eaters to come after him (and probably had enough self-confidence to assume he could handle them), which would mean that Peter would have enough time to get into hiding himself if the ruse was discovered. It wasn't really such a bad idea; the main reason why it didn't work was because Sirius put his trust in the exact wrong person; he knew there was a traitor in their midst, but never dreamt that this traitor was Peter.
- The family that Voldemort slaughtered when looking for Gregorovitch. The woman opens the door and sees him, and then begs him not to kill anyone and is obviously trying to protect her family from him. Why didn't that put a protection on the rest of her family? Was it just because she didn't specifically say "Kill me instead of them" or is Lily's love just so much better than everyone else's?
- Wouldn't that only work if Voldemort blatantly gave her the choice to step aside? He was telling Lily to get out of the way at first.
- This. It only counts as self-sacrifice if you weren't already going to die anyway.
- I really don't think The Power of Love would be that picky... Besides, she shielded her children from the Killing Curse with her own body. She clearly made the choice of self-sacrifice, even if it wasn't offered.
- The mother was not a Gryffindor, therefore she was not super special.
- Consider this: we don't know if they were all slaughtered! Harry saw the green flash and then the link broke. So pehaps it did work, so V would have to suffice with Obliviating the kids or torturing them into insanity.
- Going along with this, Voldemort killed tons of people, he was ruthless; I find it unlikely that no one else sacrificed themselves for something they loved threatened them; it's a pretty common thing to do in face of AK.
- The Power of Love is not picky. Voldemort basically made a magical contract with the right conditions. He was going to spare Lilly because of Snape. Then Lilly made a counter offer("Kill me instead of Harry"). Killing Lilly, he accepted the trade.
- Besides, wasn't it a Muggle family that Voldemort killed? Odds are that you have to be a witch to invoke a magical protection on people...
- Kreacher's Heel–Face Turn. In Book 5, Hermione was as nice as possible to Kreacher every chance she got. He essentially spit in her face and called her a mudblood. Harry does one nice thing for him in Book 7 by giving him the locket, and suddenly he couldn't be nicer to everyone, including the girl he'd been calling a mudblood just a few paragraphs before.
- House Elves have a different sense of gratitude than humans. Dobby literally cried when Harry asked him to sit down, as he had never been treated as an equal before.
- Kreacher considered Hermione subhuman (and she was being a bit condescending in her niceness), whereas Harry was, though Anti-Voldemort, a pro-Regulus wizard with two magical parents who was giving him something specifically to do with Regulus. I still think it was overdone, but the being nicer to Hermione was because he started obeying Harry (his owner, or possibly his former owner to whom he owes a debt by way of Regulus depending on whether a locket counts as clothing or not) in spirit instead of just in letter.
Protector of house elves
- Similar to the one above, in the climactic battle, Kreacher calls Harry Potter the "protector of house elves" (or something to that effect). As crowningly awesome and heartwarming the scene is, it just seems a little unfair if you consider that Harry had only been nice to two individual elves (Dobby and Kreacher, and the latter mostly because it served his own purpose), whereas Hermione organized (or at least tried to organize) SPEW, a whole movement dedicated to the betterment of house elves' work conditions worldwide. Heck, even the catalyst for her kissing Ron for the first time was when he said they should lead the elves of Hogwarts to safety before the battle. And yet Harry is the great savior.
- Well, first off Kreacher still wasn't too happy about Hermione, because she wasn't a pure blood. Also, he didn't know about SPEW, and he probably meant Harry Potter and company. I'm pretty sure that Harry would also be nice to other house elves given the chance, and he was nice to Winky. To top it off, really, it's a climatic battle. I'm sure he was just trying to remind the other elves of what they were fighting for and to "Go kick some Death Eater butts."
- Plus, while having her heart in the right place, Hermoine was really condescending when it came to her "elf liberation" ideals. Most of the elves are insulted by Hermoine's pro-liberation beliefs and attempts at freeing them. In the fourth book she's thrown out of the kitchen after urging them to seek freedom and in the fifth, after she leaves hats around the common room to try and free them, the elves are so insulted they actually refuse to clean it. Hermoine certainly wouldn't be the best person to use when rallying house-elves.
- Kreacher's thing was about Harry treating him as an equal. Even if Hermione had treated Kreacher as an equal (without being condescending), due to his view on muggle-borns it wouldn't have meant much. To him, "equal with muggle-born" is still about the same as "sub-human".
- I was under the impression he was also referring to Regulus.
- Dobby does mention in Chamber of Secrets that prior to Voldemort's downfall, house-elves had a horrible existence and were treated like vermin. Harry's protection rebounding defeating Voldemort marked a change in (most) of the house elves lives for the better. Though this may not have impacted Kreacher directly at the time, he's since lived at Hogwarts for a while and probably had a happier existence than in Grimmauld Place (aside from Regulus, I didn't get the impression anyone there treated him well).
- Harry and co. infiltrating the ministry. Ok, am I the only one who sees a problem with this? They are on the run, the whole of Britain is on the lookout for Harry, Ron and Hermione aren't even supposed to be with him (thanks to spattergroit and Australia), and yet, they decide the best way to get the locket from Umbridge is to infiltrate the Ministry, the base of Voldemort's operations? (other than Malfoy Manor, of course, but this is where he's strongest anyway). Why, oh why, couldn't they invest their time tracking down where Umbridge LIVES, and just attack her at her house? This would be soooooo much simpler, and (comparatively) safer. (unless Umbridge actually lives at the Ministry, which wouldn't surprise me...)
- But how would they have tracked her if she uses floo powder to travel between home and the ministry?
- This is a good point assuming Umbridge uses floo or apparates between her house and the ministry there's no way they can locate her home without either asking someone or infiltrating the ministry to find out. Either way compromises what they're after and so they just infiltrate the ministry to get the locket from her and also help rescue the muggleborns in the process. Plus assuming they did somehow find where she lived her home would no doubt have wards they'd need to break to get inside.
- The Ministry was the only lead they had to go on. They knew she worked there and there might be the possibility that the locket was somewhere in her office. They know she has it and that she works at the Ministry, so what else are they going to do? And the plan was to get inside her office. Maybe her home address would be somewhere in there too. And since it's a piece of jewellery she has, there's good reason to think she might be actually wearing it - which she was.
- Bellatrix questioning Hermione about the sword. The obligatory insanity excuse aside this was one of those rare and bizarre occasions when actually extracting the information prioritizes over the pleasure of torturing the hell out of the questionee. So, why didn't Bellatrix use Legilimency on her? The girl was completely untrained in Occlumency, so it should've likely worked, and THEN Bella could've safely tortured her to her black heart's content. Even if she went off so far off her rocker she didn't even consider this option, why didn't Narcissa who wasn't insane? On the same matter, why didn't they try to scan Harry to find out that it was really him under the disguise?
- Now that I think of it, why didn't the Trio receive any training in Occlumency? Harry's failure in book 5 attributed mostly to the general stress of Umbridge's reign, his tutor sucking in his trade and Harry actively willing to peek into Voldy's mind. None of those factors were in place in book 6 and Harry'd just received a cruel lesson about the importance of mind-protection. Moreover, in book 7 Dumbledore repeatedly expressed worries that some of the bad guys could read Harry's mind and thus spell doom for the whole enterprise, but he took no steps to actually help them defend from this danger.
- Training in Occulmency requires 3 essential elements: 1) a competent teacher, in Hogwarts?? 2) time, DD needed to spend 12 months tellin Harry absolutely nothing at all, there was no time remaining to tell Harry useul stuff; 3) the desire to learn, Harry neede the Dark Lord Broadcasting Network.
- But is Bellatrix trained in Legilimency?
- She trained Draco in Occlumency well enough to repel Snape's mind-probing. She'd have to be competent herself.
- It might not be necessary to be good at Legilimency to teach Occlumency. However in this situation let's suppose she is trained in Legilimency. She doesn't know what training Dumbledore has given Potter or any of his friends outside of what Snape told her who she's known to not trust. If she makes an attempt she might get thrown out of the mind allowing them to take advantage of her distraction. She's weighing her options and decides not to do it until she gets conformation that it is them and then weighs whether it'd be wise to get back up or just call Voldemort. Regardless she's in a highly stressed situation and it's very easy for her to make a mistake.
- First, you obviously HAVE to be a skilled attacker if you want to teach somebody to be a good defender. Next, uhm, what advantage could Hermione possibly take while being outnumbered, disarmed and tied up? As for stress, that's what the Malfoys were there for - they were not aware of the stress reason, and to them the whole questioning was just a quirk and an annoying hindrance to summoning V and restoring his grace. So it'd be only natural for them to inquire Why Bellatrix doesn't simply scan her.
- Have you never panicked?
- Again, Malfoys had no reasons to panic.
- Remember, Hermione was already spilling her guts in that interrogation; Bellatrix didn't believe her. She was the one who kept insisting that the Trio couldn't possibly have 'found the sword out in the woods, you must have been inside my vault!'. Presumably if she was using Legilimency on Hermione she wrote off what she saw as 'false' images and went 'The girl must be an Occlumens; we'll have to rip out of her the old-fashioned way then!'
- Hell, if I were freakin' Bellatrix Lestrange, I'd find Legilimency boring.
- What was that baby in Kings Cross Station?
- V's soul.
- What's left of it, at any rate.
- This may have been discussed before (but couldn't find it), but when we finally see how Harry's parents died, we read that James left his wand on the sofa before Voldemort came in. Granted they were probably (falsely) secured with the knowledge that Voldemort didn't know where they were, you'd think they'd still keep their wands with them at all times as a precaution. I mean, what if either of them wanted to lounge around on the front porch?
- The closest we've come in previous discussions was that James had just got done playing with Harry and they were going to put him to bed then come back down. They were reasonably relaxed for that brief period of time and that cost them. It's never said exactly how long they'd been in hiding up to this point and there might have been many more moments like it. If they'd wanted to go outside of the house they'd have made sure they had their wands, yes, but it was late at night and they were getting ready for bed so there wasn't much need.
- I see. But I'd love to see the previous discussion. Where can I find it?
- Sadly it was deleted mysteriously when the original Harry Potter It Just Bugs me page lost the full page of data. We still don't know how it happened and we lost a lot of repeted questions.
Protection wearing off
- In Deathly Hallows, Moody explained to Harry that his mother's protection would wear off when he turned seventeen. When Harry died, he could "come back" because his mother's protection was alive in Voldemort. But, wouldn't it wear off because he was already seventeen? Or did Voldemort taking Harry's blood extend it?
- This isn't entirely correct. There are multiple theories about why Harry came back and some of them can overlap. The more common is that Voldemort mistakenly created something similar to a Horcrux for Harry when he took his blood which allowed him to come back after the Elder Wand destroyed Voldemort's Horcus in Harry. It doesn't have to be Lily's protection that brought him back, but that could be a factor of the lingering effects.
- The way I read it was, the protection that ended when Harry came of age was the spell Dumbledore set over the house. Dumbledore had taken Lily's charm and manipulated it into a shield on #4 Privet Drive that would hold while Harry called the house home, until he turned 17. Lily's charm itself lived on in Harry's blood even after Dumbledore's shield was broken.
- Unfortunately, the text contradicts; Moody specifically calls the protection on the house Lily's spell in the chapter where it ends, and Dumbledore specifically says that the fragment of Lily's spell in Voldemort's blood only lives on as long as the rest of the spell does, and vice versa.
- It's perfectly possible for Lily to have more than one spell. Even if it was the same spell, the Moody's and Dumbledore's contexts are very different. It may be, for example, that part of the spell protected the Dursleys' house as long as Harry was a child and called it home, but just because neither of those conditions are met doesn't nullify other parts of the spell.
- Dumbledore states in Book 6: "The magic I evoked fifteen years ago means that Harry has powerful protection while he can still call this house 'home.'" That means, he cast a spell based on Lily's original, self-sacrifice-thin.
- This has been bugging me for a while. For those who have read the Chronicles of Prydain, you'll recall that in the first book the hero helped save the life of a gwythaint (a bird/dragon creature), something that paid off big-time in the final book where it returns to save his life. I was hoping that the same sort of thing would happen here. Way back in Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone, Harry and Hermione save Norbert when they have it shipped off to Charlie Weasley. Charlie Weasley works with dragons. Bill Weasley works in Gringotts. So why couldn't Norbert have been the dragon that the Power Trio use to escape Gringotts in this final book? He (or she) could have easily ended up there thanks to the connection between the brothers, and it would have been nice to bring that character "full-circle" in repaying his debt to Harry (granted, dragons don't seem to be hugely intelligent, but Rowling has handwaved bigger things than that). It was perfectly set-up...and it didn't happen.
- That's just it. JK Rowling may have read that series and didn't want to rip it by having Norbert flying in. That and she probably didn't want to have Norbert change into a Deus ex Machina. Knowing Charlie Weasly, he may have taken Norbert to his natural habitat, there's no way he (Norbert) would know of the Power Trio's actions.
- Also, the dragon in Gringotts bank spends all its life underground getting hot swords across the face. It would have been a shame for Norbert to have ended up there not to mention that fact that Charlie most likely wouldn't knowingly allow such a fate to befall one of his rescued dragons.
- YMMV - I absolutely don't see this as set up at all, given that dragons are at best fiercly territorial and protective beasts, and at worst outright malicious, dangerous creatures. I would've been bugged had it happened like that.
- Speaking of Missed Moments Of Awesome, we never really got to see how much of a Bad Ass Moody truly was. When Voldemort joined the chase over Little Winghing (sp?), it would've been cool to see him attempt to pull a You Shall Not Pass, instead of simply getting shot out of the air.
- I saw a nice one-shot fanfic that explaned this very realisticlly. You can read it here. To summarize Moody didn't die when he got hit by the killing curse becasue it hit him in his magic eye. He then procedes to wreck Death Eaters and fake his death.
- The reason Charlie couldn't bring Norbert(a) was because he was already in Britain. So if he wanted to bring any dragon, just for the final battle, he would have to get an international portkey to Romania (wizards can't apparate massive distances), get the dragon ready for transport (a difficult task with a dozen other helpers), and then bring it across, probably the long way. With all this, he would have missed the Final Battle entirely.
- A third Missed Moment of Awesome was that the Ford Anglia never reappeared. I honestly thought that it would show up after the Acrumantula, what with living in the forest and all, but no, it was left out...
Main characters do everything
- Was I the only one that wanted more explanation of why it had to be Harry to go on the Voldemort destruction quest? Sure there was the prophecy, but the whole them of the books until that point was that it's "choices that matter". Why couldn't Dumbledore say, "Hell no, I am not putting the fate of the world in the hands of a 17-year-old boy who isn't terribly talented in magic who has an involuntary psychic connection with the Big Bad" and divided the task among members of the Order? I realize that couldn't happen for literary reasons, since this has always been a Harry-centered story, but it would have been nice to see a more compelling reason for why it had to be Harry than Because Destiny Says So.
- It's possible Dumbledore thought he could do this in the first place but then once he was nearly killed by destroying one Horcrux changed his mind and came to the conclusion that this is something Harry has to do for himself. Regardless he did put forth the idea that destroying them is easier without alerting Voldemort. Thus it's better to have a smaller group work on finding them. Plus in his mind having the Order handle it can lead to nastier instances either with Voldemort finding out about it or them failiing worse than he did.
- When doing the single most sensitive part of taking down Voldemort, it's best to keep it to as few people as possible. Also, most of the Order are teachers, whose absense would be very noticeable. The only ones who weren't still teachers were Lupin, Moody, and Nymphadora. Lupin turns into a monster once a month, and occasionally forget his potion, so that makes him an instant hazard right off the bat.
- Also, Tonks was still considered a kid by some or most of the members, and Moody was... definitely the sharpest bulb in the box.
- Also, thanks to Voldie's actions, it would be impossible to kill him while Harry is still alive. Voldemort, or potentially someone else I guess, had to kill the part of Voldemort's soul that is in Harry before Voldemort could be killed by anyone.
- Original poster explaining my position. My thought was that Dumbledore could have told the people something along the lines of "Destroy this one, and then tell either me or my portrait. And yes, this is the only one. Yes I'm sure." Then, if one did get captured and forced to tell what they knew, one of two things would happen - everything would go to hell or Voldemort would be such an arrogant idiot he would actually be more secure, convinced Dumbledore only knew about one Horcrux. There is still the possibility of everything going to hell, but at least there is a possibility that things could still work out okay - whereas if Harry gets caught and Voldemort decides to withstand the pain and go into his mind, you know for sure everything is going to hell. I know it couldn't have worked that way for literary reasons, but still.
- This leads to the problem of at the point when he can assign tasks he only knows about the cup and the locket and for all he knew the cup could be in the cave. He's certain Nagani is one but you can't have someone go after that until Harry's ready and if necessary I'd think he'd have Snape set for that if needed. He could assign people to the one not in the cave but he'd have very little information to give them to help other than sending Order members on chasing shadows. His problems all stem from the lack of information he has and the hope that Harry can be informed of all of this before his final confrontation.
- Besideswhich, a war is fought on multiple fronts. Chasing after the Horcruxes will certainly be dangerous, but if they're all hidden like the one in the cave, it's an objective that's easy for the enemy to miss that you're pursuing. All the key Order members are needed to fight on the front lines. Hold the enemy's attention with your army while a handful of kids sneak around undoing the Big Bad's immortality. Dumbledore isn't the only wizard who's opted that plan before.
- Moreover, to my impression Dumbledore beleived that the less people knew about Horcruxes as such the better. You know, just so that nobody gets any ideas.
- Also, Dumbledore didn't get cursed by destroying the ring. He got cursed because he lost sight of the danger when he realised that it was a Hallow, and put it on, ignoring the horrific curse that he should have realised that Voldemort put on it.
- And there's an alternative fanon explanation, that the ring had a compulsion on it, and DD was just more susceptible because he knew already wanted the ring.
Yaxley through the charm
- So, Yaxley gets to break through the Fidelius Charm... and then he can enter... and then face two extraordinarily(Sp?) strong wizards, and another very, very good one. What's the problem? It isn't like he could tell the secret to anyone else.
- After Dumbledore's death anyone who is given the secret becomes a secret keeper. So once Hermione gives Yaxley the secret via apparition, he can then just tell all the other Death Eaters and they will all be able to get in.
- No, I am pretty sure only the people who were told by Dumbledore originally become secret keepers upon his death. Yaxley shouldn't be able to tell anyone the information, even if he knows it.
- I always just assumed the Trio misinterpreted the thing about the Fidelius charm breaking
- There's also the fact that Yaxley's Voldemort's top man in the Ministry, and Voldie doesn't tolerate weaklings in his inner circle (Wormtail being little more than a personal servant). Odds are he could do some pretty serious damage on his own before the Trio and Kreacher managed to subdue him, and if he actually killed one of them it would just fray the charm further.
- Hmm... that makes sense... I mean, risking one of the trio's lives? Yeah, thanks a lot.
- Hermione mentioned that Yaxley was momentarily disoriented upon arriving at Grimmauld Place, enabling the trio to disapparate again, but... Couldn't they have used that opportunity to at least STUN Yaxley? And the specifics of the Fidelius Charm don't even matter if they were willing to kill him, which would mean they could have remained at Grimmauld Place instead of risk their health/lives out in random forests... But it seems the life of an evil Death Eater was considered more important by Hermione than she and her friends own lives.
- My plan for this situation would have been: Arrive at Grimmauld Place. Stun Yaxley. Apparate with him to the forest. Apparate back to Grimmauld Place, leaving: Ron NOT splinched and Yaxley Stunned in some random forest and unable to reveal Grimmauld Place's location to the other Death Eaters when he gets back. Not that difficult. I realise people don't think well under pressure and when they only have a couple of seconds to make a decision, but still...
- Wouldn't Stupefy be just about the first spell to come to mind in that situation anyway?
- What I gather is that Hermione apparated them to Grimmauld Place and panicked when she saw that Yaxley was with them. She instinctively apparated them out and didn't realise the consequences until they were safe. Remember, she's brilliant but she's also not very good at keeping her head in stressful situations.
- After the big "Snape Loved(s) Lily" reveal, I couldn't help but wonder why Sirius and Lupin never mentioned it to Harry (or at the very least, that they were once good friends). One could say that they (especially Sirius) hated Snape and didn't spend time with him, but surely they would have noticed Lily hanging out with Snape a lot, considering their perpetual torment of him and James chasing after her. One could also say that they didn't think it was important to tell Harry, but when Harry is protesting Dumbledore's trust of Snape to Lupin (even mentioning Snape calling Lily "mudblood"), you'd think Lupin mentioning this fact may have at least given Harry something to think about. I just find it hard to believe that they were too obtuse to not notice or not care.
- This troper agrees. Snape and Lily were best friends at Hogwarts for five years! It's hard to believe that nobody thought to mention this to Harry. I'll accept that Dumbledore might have kept it a secret as part of Snape's cover. But considering how frequently Harry rants about Snape, it's surprising that another character didn't just say, "You know, Snape was best friends with your mother for a time." McGonagall, Slughorn, and especially Sirius and Lupin must have known. I guess it's plausible that it just never came up. After all, Sirius and Lupin usually reveal backstory details only when directly asked by Harry.
- It's probably a sore subject for them that their rival was friends with James's wife before them. I also wouldn't doubt they still haven't got over her death or more likely that it might be too low even for Sirius to torment Snape with Lily. After all it's not really a good idea to bring up the dead in an argument as it's usually a mood killer or a call to arms. Not telling Harry about it might be due to the fact that they never really got around to telling him much, especially about how much of a jerk his father was when he was in school. In both cases it probably didn't seem important enough for them to tell Harry with the war going on.
- Or it's possible that the only other person who ever knew for sure that Snape had been in love with Lily was Dumbledore. I think Sirius and Lupin might have suspected it, but it would have been a really jerkass move, right after Harry saw the memory of James tormenting Snape, to say "Well, your dad thought Snape was in love with your mum..." Whether or not they'd have meant it to come off as a justification, that's how Harry would have viewed it, and it would have made him feel even angrier at the Marauders, and probably especially towards Sirius (for egging James on) and Lupin (for not even trying to stop them).
- While I really liked the seventh book over all, it bugs me to this day that I can't think of any justification for Voldemort not just AK-ing Snape other than the fact that Snape had to stay alive long enough to give Harry his memories. I simply don't buy Voldemort not wanting to get his hands dirty; he's obviously shown he doesn't care about that sort of thing, and if his entire reason for killing Snape was to master the Elder wand, why risk the chance that it wouldn't work because he didn't kill Snape directly?
- Perhaps he saw it as an indignity to keep using a wand he hadn't mastered and had decided to not use the Elder Wand again until he had officially won it.
- He may also have been afraid of precisely what happened when he wielded the Elder Wand against Harry later; that the wand would deny his attempt to kill its master using it, and may in fact backlash the effect on him.
- For that matter, why did he feel the need to kill Snape at all instead of just disarming him suddenly? Did he not understand how allegiance transferred or something?
- How would he disarm Snape of the Elder Wand when he already had the Elder Wand? Hand it to him and then disarm him? That seems like an insane thing for paranoid Voldemort to do. Granted, it would have transferred allegiance if Snape had had the allegiance and he'd disarmed Snape of his existing wand (Except it wouldn't have worked, it would have probably backfired and killed him.), but that wasn't an obvious fact to anyone but Harry. With the knowledge that Voldemort had, and the stupidity that he'd shown about actual magical knowledge (as opposed to just forcing his way past things), he actually was doing pretty good to figure out that Snape might have won it, and him killing Snape would fix that, and he was smart enough not to use the wand against its (supposed) master.
- I don't think Voldemort knew that, or if he did he figured that a wand known as the 'Deathstick' might have different rules. Or it could be a 'just to make sure' thing. As for why he didn't use the Killing Curse, it could be that you have to really mean it and, even if it wasn't out of the goodness of his heart (ha!), he thought Snape could still be useful, and he probably felt that it was regrettable but necessary. So maybe he thought the Killing Curse wouldn't work?
- Voldemort only knew that he had to 'defeat' Snape. In his mind, the only way to do that was to kill him. But he didn't want to use the Elder Wand against the person he thought was its master.
Other magical communities
- I don't think this has come up before, so I have to wonder why all the other magical communities in all the other countries of the world didn't do something about what was happening in Britain, or try to help or anything. Yes, I know Voldemort was staying under cover until his enemies in Britain were crushed and the Ministry of Magic certainly didn't come out and say 'Yeah, we're in the Dark Lord's pocket now'. So what? Are you telling me that no one outside the country guessed at what was really happening? And it's not as if there was no chance of them knowing what was going on; Voldemort having returned was public knowledge long before this point and the behavior of the Ministry and its sudden turn against Harry twice in as many years would be rather suspicious at the least. I just can't believe that nobody managed to get out of Britain before the restrictions really set in, or told the other magical governments the truth about registration and persecution and the like, perhaps even Muggle Borns being sent to Azkaban or just being outright Kissed. And even if the different communities have a 'non-interference' policy or a desire to keep the wizarding world secret, which makes sense and which couldn't very well happen if they turned Britain into a battle field, if they even guessed that Voldemort was taking over they knew that he probably wouldn't stop there and would spread his influence to the rest of the world, never mind the fact that lots of innocent people were being unjustly imprisoned or killed. And please, let's not forget that this is the second time this sort of thing has happened: no one seemed inclined to aid the Order of the Phoenix in the First Wizarding War either, even though that was a smaller affair. I know that in the Harry Potter world everything is Britain, but I would have liked to at least be given a reason for why the rest of the world doesn't seem to give a damn.
- Foreign powers watching semi-apathetically as a single nation is locked in a desperate clash with a ruthless force led by a megalomaniac dictator bent on world domination? Now why does this sound so familiar?
- True, this is a very well documented phenomenon in international politics. Very plausible that no one would have come to Britain's aid (in the Wizarding world, which does not necessarily remember 'appeasement' and its failure) until Voldemort began to look for extra lebensraum for him and his pure blood sycophants.
- I'd always assumed that the other countries couldn't be sure that something really was wrong. They'd heard of crazy things happening in Britain in the past few years and assumed it wasn't their problem. I'm sure some people knew the problems that were going on but politics (in every country) are difficult to get anything going unless you have solid proof. Keep in mind that the really bad stuff (hunting down muggleborns) didn't start happening until the summer after Harry's 6th year. Most countries if they even had the wizards for a peacekeeping force wouldn't be able to send them unless it became public, otherwise it'd look just like an invasion force.
- Exactly. Plus, remember, we're only seeing it through Harry's eyes, so we really don't know any more than he does. All he (and we) know is that Britain stands alone. He may not know that other countries like America, France, Germany, are sending their wizards over to fight Voldemort. I think Rowling left that for the readers to decide. I like to assume that there are a few wizards from outside countries helping them against Voldemort and his men.
- For the most part, I don't think anything that was going on was perceived as part of a major problem. Either Voldemort was incredibly narrow-minded in his scope, was stopped before he was able to actually start a global war, or Rowling just forgot that the rest of the world outside Britain existed at the time of writing. The second is the most likely scenario, but if it's the first one then it would be more apt to compare Voldemort's oppression to the situation in North Korea. Nobody really knows (or cares) what's going on there so long as they're not crossing borders. He had already gathered a bestial force to wage war in what's most likely ONLY the UK, and only after his power was secured there would he have moved on. It's not like there wasn't a global war before, either; the Grindelwald conflict was global, and tied in to WWII in terms of time.
- Now I imagine Voldemort actually conquering Britain, then saying "I now require Spain and Albania", taking over them while everyone else. Soon, voldemort has all of Europe, while China, Japan, Canada, and America say "Oh not my problem." Then, he goes and knocks over China's tea into Japan's rice and America's coffee into Canada's Poutine. Then they all say, "Now, it's my problem."
- I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who thought of this. I had imagined a simple Hand Wave being that international politics never really came into play because those departments never really were encountered in the ministry. Voldemort was the puppet minister of magic, so he probably got the foreign relations to say "Oh, nothing's going on". Diplomats would basically be brainwashed into saying "Everything's alright over there, they got it in control".
- Maybe magical Britain is rather unimportant. Unimportant countries have the bad luck that other countries tend to look away if it is not important for themselfs to help said countries. As an real life example: Russia basicly invaded eastern Ukraine and got away with it. Guess what would have happend if Russia had done the same with Alaska.
Lupin at Grimmauld Place
- I think I've finally figured out why Lupin's meltdown at Grimmauld Place bothers me so much: Of course he wouldn't want to pass his lycanthropy on to an innocent child, but (1) why did he never sit Tonks down and say, "Tonks, baby, I love you and I know you want kids, but honey, I'm a fucking werewolf, so procreating might not be the best idea in this case."? She's an Auror; she should have been able to see where he was coming from; and (2) does Rowling really expect us to believe that the Wizarding World, which has spells and potions capable of curing almost every disease and injury under the sun, doesn't have some form of birth control? Think about it: What if a couple of fifth-years at Hogwarts have a little hanky-panky in the broom closet, and she ends up pregnant; is she just totally fucked (pun not intended, but whatever)? I can understand if Rowling is pro-life, but seriously. Pregnancy isn't always a happy or welcome thing, especially if you're a teenager or you have an AIDS allegory that you don't want your child suffering from.
- Birth control is not 100 percent. Could be an oops baby.
- Tonks may not want an abortion OR Tonks may not be able to have an abortion because of the shifting. It may be a pretty dangerous thing, shes on the table letting it happen, panics during procedure, and starts morphing needed body parts causing immeasurable damage. Really not a good risk :/
- Technically yes, but mentally? Remember that the Wizarding world is stuck somewhere in XVI-XVII century (parchement and quills, anybody) with some sporadic inputs of technology (most likely adapted from Muggles). I wouldn't be surprised if the bulk of them are ignorant about the subtleties of the process itself, let alone the possibilities of control. As was pointed out in the general discussion of the Potterverse, there are no Sex Ed classes in Hogwarts .
- It's the 21st century, I'm sure wizards have figured out how procreation works. They're not stupid. The OP's right. If it was such a big deal, he should've said "Honey, Im a werewolf, perhaps we shouldn't have a child". If she still wanted one, they could just adopt. Maybe if Tom Riddle found a loving family and was adopted, he might not have grown into Voldemort (ok, he probably would have, but you never can tell).
- It's the late 20th century in the Muggle world (as of the time the novels are taking place). It's 19th (at best) in the Wizarding world. Birth control achieved structure and widespread in the middle of the 20th.
- That's assuming a lot. For one thing, social mores in the Wizarding world seem to be roughly on par with the Muggle world. No one really raises an eyebrow at the idea of women in power or with interracial dating (Cho and Harry, Cho and Cedric, Fred and Angelina, George and Angelina, Ginny and Dean). Bigotry exists in other forms, yes—against part humans, against non-humans, against Muggles and Muggle-borns—but no one's behavior is even remotely similar to nineteenth century society. Furthermore, prophylactics have entered and left widespread use repeatedly over the course of history. One herb in Ancient Rome was so effective a means of birth control that it was harvested into extinction. Given the presence of medicinal magic in widespread use (they've cured the common cold, for instance) it's likely that they have birth control. As I've suggested, it might just not work one hundred percent of the time, or could have been faulty, or whatever.
- Moreover, there are probably as many real-life superstitions about birth-control methods as there are about love potions, dating back to prehistory. In a setting where everything else that's magical is for real, it's only to be expected that some of those would actually be functional.
- As for women in power, consider this; the Minister of Magic before Fudge was a woman (Millicent Bagnold). And under Fudge, the #2 and #3 slots in the Ministry were also women (Delores Umbridge and Amelia Bones).
- Hell, Muggles have birth control, but we don't always use it. Maybe it was a But We Used a Condom situation and the potion/charm/whatever isn't always effective. Maybe they just didn't use it one time in the heat of the moment. Maybe it was a potion that was improperly brewed, or a charm that was improperly cast. Maybe the condom slipped off.
- This could just be another indication of how unhealthy their relationship is. I mean, this is a relationship where one can look utterly miserable while the other is beaming. Tonks was very clear with what she wanted and how she felt in the sixth book, but Lupin still held that he knew what was best for her and treated her like a child, really. Then, in the same manner, he dissregards everything previously resolved to walk out on her and the bably. On the flip side, she doesn't take his concerns seriously at all if he could be as upset as he was with the consequences of their relationship while she pretented that everything was pink clouds and sunshine. My guess is that she wanted a baby (or unprotected sex on the wedding night, at least) bad enough to wave off all his concerns and he just gave up the fight at that moment, maybe thinking he could solve the situation later. I don't think that this is directly linked to the sexual freedom the that society, their communication was just that bad.
- I don't know, I think it's very believable that the Wizarding world (which is rather backwards in many issues such as racism or law, for that matter) might hold Views on contraception? And, as pointed out above, they don't seem to have sex ed. classes. Also there is forgetfulness, condoms breaking etc.
- Hey, it's also entirely possible that, post-Dumbledore's death, in the pure emotion of it all the two of them made angsty love in an abandoned room somewhere, and Tonk's hair "magically" turned back to pink. During sex, your brain just shuts off anyway. Lupin probably regretted his decision later when he considered the consequences of it all (again, as has been mentioned above, just like Muggles will do). On a side note on Wizard prejudices, I've been wondering why it is there isn't more diversity at Hogwarts. Yes, Hogwarts has a mix of different ethnicities, but if at least the films are any indication, the majority certainly leans toward caucasions, just like it does in Muggle Britain. The civil rights movement would not have had anything to do with the magical world, like at all. HOWEVER, one could easily point out that, as there is a large number of Halfbloods and Muggleborns mixed in with the purebloods, there'd be numerous cultural cross-overs.
- Because there isn't that much diversity in the area Hogwarts traditionally receives. I think there is mention that Hogwarts will more or less take anyone with minimum requirements but parents in Americas or Africa are not really going to want their kid so far away. Makes sense to me most characters would be white, and personally I think its awesome how many non whites are actual characters later on. Racism in skin tone doesn't really exist at Hogwarts. It is played out within the wizarding lineage way, which seems like an intense move and is mentioned a ton.
- The reason Lupin and Tonks have a baby despite the fact Lupin thinks it's an extremely bad idea: let's say there's a birth control potion which only one partner has to take. Since he's so worried about them having kids, he volunteers to take the potion. However, maybe it's actually not so effective on werewolves. Or maybe he just forgot. Remember in POA when he just forgot to take his Wolfsbane Potion? It's kind of like taking a daily birth control pill — some people are a bit forgetful. And prior behavior has shown he can be disastrously forgetful. Also, in the real world, when people are used to taking a certain dose of medication, but have to take something different another day, it can throw them off. So if he's still been getting Wolfsbane Potion, maybe on the day he had to take that, he forgot to also take the birth control potion, and then forgot he hadn't taken it, and then boned Tonks. Oops. I guess this is all a bit Fan Wank-y, but considering the bit in POA where he wrecks shit by going all rampaging werewolf, Lupin being forgetful seems like a compelling explanation to me.
- "Just forgot to take his Wolfsbane Potion"? Jesus Christ, the man had just seen the name of his long dead friend appear on the map, and his apparently evil other friend cornering three children - he was probably a little bit preoccupied! Also, why is everyone assuming that Tonks purposefully got pregnant? Chances are her and Lupin got caught up in the heat of the moment so weren't especially careful with contraceptives one night. It happens all the time, people don't realise that the pill doesn't work with certain antibiotics, they get drunk and don't put the condom on properly, they forget to have their implant replaced.
Thousand year-old tree
- How can one tree in Romania - one tree that is not specified to be a magical tree - last for a thousand years? With the diadem of Ravenclaw staying there forever, and never taken up by some - say - squirrel. Or magpie. We're not talking the Petrified Forest or the California Sequoiahs, just an ordinary little tree. No forest fires. No lightning or particularly harsh winds. Not even a spell to preserve the tree for that long is mentioned. How?
- Just because no magic was mentioned doesn't mean none was used. Considering Voldemort took the diadem from the tree decades ago, whatever way it used to be protected isn't really relevant.
- Plenty of trees can last a thousand years or more. The oldest tree in existence has been around since the end of the last major Ice Age (for the record and according to the article, nearly 10,000 years), and according to Rowling there are 2,000-year-old yew trees in Britain.
- Well technically we don't know if it was still in the same tree. Helena just said she left it in a hollow tree in Albania. She doesn't know how Voldemort found it or where. For all we know, he could have searched the whole country before he found it.
Ministry tracer spell
- There is a spell which will notify the caster(s) if somebody says a particular word. It was used to great effect by the Death Eaters to find when somebody said "Voldemort", as only the good guys in the Order would be brave enough to say it. Why didn't the Ministry/Order do the same thing but with "Dark Lord" or even "My Lord"? Even if the Ministry is too incompetent/corrupted to think of it or act on it, it would give the Order a lot of valuable intelligence on who his followers are (that Snape may not know about or may not be sharing).
- First of all doing that to "Dark Lord" when you could be referring to the Dark Lord Grindelwald or heck any Dark Lord past or present in casual conversation is ridiculous. Second of all "My lord" can sometimes used by muggleborns as a sort of curse as in "oh my lord" so that's out too. Honestly the ministry isn't at fault for this as it's possible the Taboo Voldemort made is dark magic and would be frowned upon. You'd have to put it on something worse like say "Avada Kedavra" to get any real use out of it and even then it'd be iffy if you're teaching it to aurors.
- And it's not just muggleborns that use the word 'lord' as an intensifier or curse. I noticed in a reread that at one point Draco Malfoy says 'Good Lord' before dropping some obnoxious insult.
- Remember, also, that this is Britain, and there are people, such as peers and bishops, who are legitimately addressed as "My Lord".
- And if the Ministry did try to tag "Dark Lord" as a Taboo, they'd probably have to discontinue doing so after the ninth or tenth false-alarm summons to a Muggle Tolkien reading, Star Wars convention, or Ravenloft game campaign.
- Also, not everyone who called Voldemort "the Dark Lord" were Death Eaters. The Ministry would be getting false alarms anytime someone decided to talk about current events, or if a teacher was talking about recent history, or if aurors were having a meeting about ways to defeat Voldemort. After a while it would get counterproductive.
- Why didn't Voldemort simply order all his minions to make an unbreakable vow, that they will always serve his cause and never betray him?
- There are a few theories I've heard about this. One theory says as long as it is active it constantly drains a portion of the unbreakable vow's subjects' magic (ie Snape and Mrs. Malfoy constantly had a set amount of magic that they couldn't access while the vow was in place). If Voldemort did that with everyone he'd have very little magic but loyal followers. Another theory is you can only have one unbreakable vow working at a time. Which would mean Voldemort would only use it if absolutely necessary. We don't know everything about the unbreakable vow so we can't just make blind jumps in logic otherwise we'd question every moment the unbreakable vow could have been used in the series.
- He expected that fear would keep the Death Eaters in line.
- Another idea: He wants to allow for failure. Maybe he wants to punish it with a grand speech, Crucio and AK to make a lasting impression (somebody peacefully kicking the bucket on a mission wouldn't be nearly so dramatic). Or maybe he understands that sometimes circumstances make fulfilling his orders impossible and doesn't want to needlessly lose loyal followers. Presumably, an unbreakable vow isn't intelligent and follows the contract to the letter all the time.
- This seems to be the most logical explanation. We rarely hear of Voldemort actually killing his followers. He punishes and tortures them for their mistakes, but he doesn't kill - except in fury after they've stolen the cup from Bellatrix's vault. The unbreakable vow results in certain death, so he'd be down a few followers if they got cold feet.
- It bugs me how Harry immediately rejects Lupin's help without even considering the possibility that they could use it. Sure, Lupin should be spending time with Tonks, but they could have made all sorts of stipulations. Lupin doesn't have to know what they're up to to teach them useful defensive spells and strategies. They might have even been get some "methods of magical destruction" without him getting suspicious. Would a one-hour lesson every other day really cut into his and Tonks' quality time that badly?
- No way Lupin would content himself with such superficial involvement. Judging from that scene, he had a vehement craving for a chance to escape his painful predicament, if not an outright deathwish. If Harry'd budged even a little, Lupin wouldn't have rested until he was accepted full-time (and we know how persuasive he could be).
- Also, when you reread the scene pay attention to Harry's tone of voice and word choice; he's screaming insults in Remus' face, not calmly saying no. Harry has issues re: parental abandonment; the instant he heard 'Father of baby wants to leave baby behind', he stopped caring about why, he just went Noooooooooooooooooooooooo!
- What bugs me is how Harry can live with himself after mentally tormenting a friend like that, especially a friend who has saved his life on numerous occasions, taught him to defend himself and generally been nothing but kind to him. Lupin genuinely wanted to help him and not just to get away from a marriage which he appeared to have been pressured/forced into in the first place and was clearly unhappy about. No matter how he justified it, Harry was being downright evil in that scene.
- Because that was probably the only way to knock some sense into Lupin and get him to go back to his child. As someone above said, Harry has issues with child abandonment, so he was going to do whatever it took to keep his friend from abandoning his child.
- True, but Harry is also being a monstrous hypocrite here given that he is the son of a man who did exactly what 'horrible' thing Remus is trying to do right now; leave behind his wife to take care of his son while he goes out on combat missions during a war. It's not like James Potter resigned from the Order of the Phoenix the day Harry was born. War sucks, Harry, and its not just single guys who have to go fight it — you are not 'abandoning' anything if you volunteer to serve your country when its being invaded by fucking magical Nazis. Are you even British, Harry Potter? What happened to "We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender."?
- But that's exactly why Harry does it. He knows first hand what it is to grow up without (loving) parents, and put himself in the shoes of Remus' son. And to be fair, the implication is that, even pregnant, both Lilly and Tonks keep on the fight, if not full time, and at their husbands side.
- If I were Andromeda Tonks I would be direly insulted at this line of reasoning of Harry's, given that its based on the assumption 'Remus' son would be raised by the equivalent of the Dursleys', because in order to grow up without loving parental figures it takes more than 'your natural parents are dead', it also takes 'and the family you do end up with are titanic assholes'. The most charitable thing we can say about Harry's thought process here is that he's being a self-centered idiot who thinks that because it happened to him its therefore a universal condition.
Destroying a Horcrux
- So, Hermione was unable to find any curse that would be powerful enough to destroy an Horcrux, even if the power trio launched it together. But Crabbe can cast a spell powerful enough to destroy an Horcrux, even when it was not his intention? As far as we can tell, Crabbe and Goyle were awful wizards due to their stupidity. Harry and Hermione were probably the most powerful teenagers in the books (well, in the books means "teenagers in the books", I know Voldemort and Snape were way more powerful at 17).
- The trio never found a legal spell to destroy a Horcrux. Hermione knew Fiendfyre existed but would never have tried it, even if she did know how to conjure it, because it's so dangerous. Crabbe didn't necessarily have to be powerful to cast a Fiendfyre curse, he just had to have knowledge of the spell. After all, he ended up being killed because he didn't know how to properly control it.
House elf weapons
- In the Battle of Hogwarts, the house elves join in... using kitchen knives. Why not use their innate magic to attack from a distance?
- Who says they didn't use both?
- Kitchen knives + combat teleportation (elves can do this at Hogwarts) + small size = awesome threat
- Don't underestimate the lethality of sharp kitchen knives in the skilled hands of professional chefs.
- In the book Harry grumbles about never having learned how to magically heal. Hogwarts has no compulsory First-Aid courses?
- Hermione uses a potion to cure Ron's wound and then another one - to cure their burns after the heist. So apparently it was taught - Harry was just Book Dumb.
- are you forgetting that Hermione is a Teen Genius? She knew plenty of things that were outside of the school curriculum from reading so much.
- Plenty of schools don't have First Aid courses, or at least very extensive ones, and plenty of students who do take First Aid classes in school don't really learn anything. Of course, you'd think that Harry Potter of all people would pay attention to First Aid, but it's not ridiculous thinking that Hogwarts doesn't offer any.
- Harry did use a healing spell on an injured team mate during a quidditch training session in book six.
- One that he had just learnt at the start of the year from Tonks, and that only worked to heal broken noses. Not that useful for splinching.
- Bearing splinching in mind, seems like a bad idea to push first aid. Have it available for those who see the benefit, but not make it a requirement. Then you would have kids like Fred and George deciding "We know how to fix ourselves now lets see what else we can do!"
- Presumably you learn it if you train to become a Healer.
Destruction of the cup
- The destruction of the cup, namely the non-chalant way it was done off-screen. Both the diary and the locket defended themselves to the best of their abilities and nearly succeeded. I can understand the lack of resistance from the diadem, since it was destroyed by a spell of mass destruction, and the horcrux didn't have time to sense the danger and react, but the cup? "Oh, well, we just went into the Chamber of Secrets, took some Basilisk teeth and stabbed it." That's some mighty lazy writing there.
- I agree. Best Wild Mass Guessing I can apply is maybe the spirits of Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff in the diadem and the cup held the spirit more in check than in the Slytheryn one, which the horcrux part got along a little too well with.
- Spirits of the owners stored inside their possessions sounds awfuly like...horcruxes. I don't think so.
- I don't think he meant spirit as in "Soul" rather in the metaphoric sense.
- Horcruxes gain power from emotional closeness to their victims. The diary could attack Harry in the Chamber of Secrets because it had been draining Ginny all year, while the locket could defend itself from Ron because it had been feeding off him, Harry, and Hermione for months in the woods. The cup was in their possession for all of a day, and the diadem hadn't been touched since Harry put it on that bust when he hid the Half-Blood Prince's Potions book, during which he likely held it for all of ten seconds, so neither of them had any power with which to fight back.
- Fair enough. However, the Marvolo ring cursed Dumbledore to near death the moment he put it on, obviously not needing to drain any "mana" from people. Such a ward was uncharasteristcally thoughtfull and competent for V, I must say, which begs the question of why weren't the other horcruxes charmed to be lethal to the touch, like the necklace in HBP. Again, I can understand the diary, since it was supposed to be used to release the Basilisk, but why not the others?
- The Marvolo ring was being stored with one of the three most powerful magical artifacts on the planet; that might have had something to do with it.
- Fridge Logic kicks in: they didn't use those horcruxes. Ginny wrote in the Diary, DD wore the ring and H,R&H wore the locket (which all three felt draining them). While they didn't use use the cup (how would you use it anyway?) and didn't wear the diadem (which make the owner smarter so there is some temptation in wearing it).
- I would think the obvious way of "using" the Cup would be to drink from it. Hepzibah Smith mentions that it, like the Locket, is rumored to possess unique magical properties, although this is never expounded upon; still, the idea that it might imbibe a liquid placed within it with special properties (Holy Grail, anyone?) makes sense. Presumably, someone tempted to do so while it was a Horcrux would become emotionally dependent on it and thus vulnerable, as would someone writing in the Diary or wearing the Ring.
- Drinking from the cup seems to be the most logical way for the Horcrux to work. And wearing the diadem too.
Basilisk venom and Harry
- If basilisk venom destroys Horcruxes and Harry is a Horcrux, wouldn't it have been destroyed when Harry got his arm impaled by the basilisk fang?
- A Horcrux can only be destroyed along with its vessel (the unique Harry-Voldemort situation notwithstanding). If Harry wasn't cured by the phoenix and died, then yes, the Horcrux would be gone, but the venom doesn't "exorcise" horcruxes as much as overcomes the protective wards and damages the vessel beyond repair.
- I'm the person above who explained how the Taboo was supposed to work and why Voldemort probably couldn't just make the atmosphere poisonous to muggles, but here's a more pointed thing than tabooing "hello" and having the death eaters watching the taboo alarms day and night: Why didn't Voldemort taboo the word "horcrux"? Anyone who says it is either an enemy or competition. Is it because the taboo is a government thing, that Voldemort would have had to have gone through the official channels to set it up without a prohibitive amount of effort (if at all) and didn't want any Ministry mice to get curious about horcruxes?
- A few possible reasons. We're never told how the Taboo was made it's possible that he needed the help of his followers to set up the ritual to create it and them hearing Horcrux so much might get them interested when he'd rather them stay ignorant. Another might be that he never thought anyone would say the word horcrux even if they did find out about them (using a code word instead). Another possibility is that he couldn't create a Taboo on any word but only on someone's name or alias. In short if we knew a bit more about the Taboo and how it was made we'd have a better way to question it, but we're in the dark on a lot so it's safe to say either he couldn't, or didn't think it was worth the effort.
- Voldemort does know that Dumbledore/Harry are aware of his Horcruxes until the very end of Book 7. He wouldn't have used the word "horcrux" because he wouldn't have expected anyone to say it. Barely anyone even seems to know what it is.
- Plus, Death Eaters don't magically appear out of thin air. There's presumably some people sitting around monitoring the 'Taboo spell'...so it's entirely possible that if you Taboo a word, the monitors hear it. Or even will know what words they're listening for in advance. Voldemort doesn't want anyone to even know that word, not even his own people.
Brave Lupin and Tonks
- How are Lupin and Tonks brave for deliberately going into battle when they didn't have to, with a son and a widowed mother at home no less?
- Care to elaborate on the "didn't have to" part? Regardless, they were hardly the only people there who had families, yet rushed into the fight to stop the evil that endangered those very families and everything they held dear.
- From what we saw, Lupin and Tonks fighting in the battle of Hogwarts ultimately had no effect on it. It wasn't needed and while I understand that it was a war, it's still irresponsible to run out into a battle just because your husband did when you have a family that needs you more.
- I half agree and disagree with you. On the one hand both parents fighting seems to make little sense when they just had a child. It'd make more sense for one parent to go and the other to remain behind to make sure the child is cared for in the worst case scenerio (which one should stay behind is debatable as they're both experienced). On the other hand "What we saw" of their fight was nothing. For all we know they fought and killed several inner circle members and only fell against overwelming odds.
- This way you could argue that the contribution of any single soldier in any war is negligible, and that's a rather dangerous idea for the morale. Keep in mind that if the Army of Light wins but they both die, then their relatives will be taken cared of by their friends. If it loses but one of them survive, they'll be eventually hunted down and killed as blood traitors. And anyway I too think it's unfair to say that their death were meaningless, just because they died off-screen (although the way Moody and Lupins were killed off-screen does pisses me off).
Opening the locket
- Yet another Locket Horcrux question: why do they have to open the damned thing to destroy it? can't they just slash the locket and be done with it?
- Rule of Drama.
- Perhaps the outer casing was thicker than the inner bit of the locket?
- I'm pretty sure Kreacher mentions that the casing had numerous protective spells over it, so opening it would be ideal.
Five year old corpse
- Ron and Hermione go down to the Chamber of Secrets to get the Basilisk teeth. Wait a sec, do you mean to tell me that the Basilisk had just laid there for FIVE YEARS completely undisturbed? Are you kidding me? The school underwent probably the biggest crisis ever that nearly got it closed, and they just left the thing to rot in the Chamber and forgot all about it? Nobody cared to check if maybe it had offspring or if there were some other horrible things Slytherin might've left there, the freaking Ministry wasn't interested in studying the beast or just, you know, isolating an incredibly dangerous creature full of deadly venom, the school staff didn't seal the passage just to be on the safe side. How is that possible?!!!
- Well for some of your problems they needed Harry (or a parslemouth) to get into the Chamber. I suppose Dumbledore could have gone there with Fawkes, assuming that's possible, but it's not really a danger to anyone as only Harry can get there. Also you have to remember that it's a complicated ritual to birth a basilisk (something about a chicken egg, full moon, etc) so there wasn't that big a chance of there being offspring especially since there was only one monster of Slytherin (no mate). Plus it's been over a thousand years, if Slytherin left anything that dangerous besides the Snake I think Voldemort would have used it when he found the basilisk 50 years ago.
- Yeah, they'd need a parselmouth to get to the Chamber, how's that a problem? Moreover, it's not about danger as such - it's about people in charge apparently not giving a slightest damn. Just to recap: there is an ancient chamber, built by a powerful evil wizard, with AT LEAST one insanely dangerous monster they know about, right under a school full of children. How the hell is everyone OK with that? Can you imagine that if someone found a blockbuster under a school, they'd be content with simply defusing it and leaving it there without any further investigation? The arguments you presented, while valid, look awfully like the self-delusion sessions Voldy attends (nobody will ever find the horcruxes, I don't need to check on them...nobody will ever find the horcruxes, I don't need to check on them...). And even barring the ostensible danger, was NO ONE interested in a real life Basilisk corpse? Studying it, stuffing it for some museum of magical beasts, extracting its venom (I'm looking at you, prof. Slughorn), mounting its head on a mantle...nothing? BS.
- The way I understand it the Chamber remained dormant for 950 years, because no parslemouth ever found the Chamber. If no other parselmouth appears to find it then it'll remain dormant. Dumbledore probably thought after a difficult experience Harry would want to avoid the Chamber and never brought up the idea of exploring it further for whatever reason. Yes, it seems silly but that's about the only reasoning I can think of. I agree it'd make sense that after Dumbledore realized that the diary was indeed a Horcrux and Voldemort did create more of them that he'd either go down there himself or have Harry retreive a Basalisk fang so that they'd have another way to safely destroy Horcruxes without the Sword of Gryffindor. Ultimately, I think somewhere along the line people either didn't believe the story, or lost interest in it enough that no one bothered Dumbledore or Harry about retreiving anything in the Chamber. Silly I know but the populace of the Wizarding world is weird like that.
- Alternately, Lucius paid the Ministry to look the other way.
- Why make such a huge deal about destroying Voldemort post "The Forest Again" chapter? Why make such a big deal about Narcissa not revealing to Voldemort that Harry is indeed still alive? Because of Harry's intended sacrificial move, it's eventually made clear that none of Voldemort's spells hold. "He can't touch them." Voldemort was effectively powerless at this point.
- At the time it's not known that Voldemort's spells don't hold. I don't think Harry figured that out until he was hit by crucio and it didn't hurt. Narcissa's not revealing Harry was alive is important because it not only redeems her character, but it helps Harry. Even though Voldemort's spells don't hurt him the Death Eater's spells still can.
- Besides, V could still hurt other people, outside Hogwarts. I doubt that Harry's sacrifice gave protection to the whole wide world, but more likely only to those in immediate danger.
- Harry's sacrifice protected everyone else at Hogwarts from Voldemorts spells. The fact that he was the Master of the Elder Wand was why he was not hurt by the Cruciatus Curse. If Narcissa had said he was alive, V would have probably tried again, realised the Elder Wand didn't work, and use someone elses.
First name basis
- Why does Voldy call Lucius and Bella by their first names and all of the other Death Eaters by their last names? If it was to show that he favoured them, then why does he still call Lucius by his first name in Deathly Hallows?
- In Bellatrix's case, it may be differentiate her from the two other Death Eaters named Lestrange. Maybe Abraxas Malfoy was a Death Eater back in the day, creating a similar situation with Lucius, and then when Abraxas died, Voldemort continued to say "Lucius" out of habit.
- That makes sense, especially since in Order of the Phoenix, Lucius refers to each of the Lestranges by their first names and everyone else by their last. But that makes me wonder whether Voldy calls the Carrows and Narcissa by the their first names too. (Haven't read HBP or DH in a while, so if the answer's in there, sorry.)
- As a way of reminding Lucius of exactly who is in charge. He is used to being called "Lord Malfoy" or "Mr. Malfoy" all the time, so calling him by his given name is a sign of familiarity bordering on downright disrespect for someone of Lucious's stature.
- Am I the only one who thought Lily's patronus was SUPER CRAPPY? Is she such an uninteresting character that she gets nothing more creative than the Distaff Counterpart of her husband's patronus? It would be slightly okay if it turned after she fell in love with James, since I thought Snape taking on Lily's patronus was super romantic, but it is implied that her patronus was always a doe, which is just kind of lame. I am disappoint.
- Counter question. When did she learn to cast a patronus? Before or after she fell in love with James? Keep in mind it's extremely special for Harry to cast a patronus at 13 and most of the DA only learned to cast it because Harry helped them and even then most had trouble. I'm of the opinion she never learned the spell until after she fell in love with James at least on the subconscious level. After all Tonks's patronus changed to reflect her happy thoughts so it's entirely possible that Lily's was reflected by her happy thoughts.
- But Snape and Dumbledore would have to know what it was in the first place in order to replicate and recognize it respectively, which suggests she did cast it while she was still at school. I kind of have to agree that Lily's patronus is a bit rubbish. Deer just don't have any personality when you compare them with other animals. Stags at least have that whole "king of the forest" thing going for them, but does are an empty void. Ironically, this makes it a good choice for Lily since she is a bit lacking in the personality department. To be honest, the first thing that popped into my head when I saw it in the film (but not when I read about it in the book) was "Bambi's Mom!" so maybe that's why I can't take it very seriously.
- My, my, so much fuss over nothing. You two do realize that for all your complaining, you never explain why you think Lily's Patronus was such a bad one. I personally don't think there's much wrong with it, honestly. It's at least more interesting than, say, a horse.
- After Hermione's wand is taken, she says that Voldemort will know that Harry's wand is broken because of priori incantanum. But her wand broke his wand weeks earlier, and she cast dozens of spells after breaking his wand. Why would that be a concern?
- Technically the villains could've watched all the spells the wand had ever performed (at the cemetery in Goblet of Fire V's wand replayed the spells it performed 15 years before).
Angelina, Fred, and George
- Does anyone else think it's kinda weird that Angelina was dating Fred and then ended up marrying George? Yeah, your boyfriend from school isn't necessarily your true love, but it's still a bit odd to go on to marry the identical twin of someone you dated.
- I always assumed it was a Twin Swap deal and it was really George she was dating and after Fred died he had to come clean.
- Technically all we know is that Fred and Angelina went together to the Yule Ball (though we see Fred there without her, oddly). For all we know, that might have been their only date, and we don't know when she and George got together. (Or, for an alternate theory: J.K. didn't mean to do a Settle for Sibling at all, she just forgot which twin she'd originally set her up with.)
- There is an interview with Rowling (I don't want to be that person who says "I read it once" without having a source in hand, but I don't know the name of the documentary; it is, however, the one that comes as an extra in my copy of the Half-Blood Prince DVD. I think it's fairly well-known) where she actually admits Angelina and George are a bit of an odd pairing, and might not be the most healthy given the circumstances, but that she believes they were happy together. Guess it's not the kind of relationship a therapist would support without several warnings, but if they get along well, it works. Also to the above: I'm pretty sure I remember Fred and Angelina being together at the Yule ball; there's a passage about how they dance so dramatically that other pairs have to make way for them.
- What exactly happened to Emmeline Vance? She was a member of the Order who died sometime between books 5 and 6; Snape used her death as a way to try to win Bella's trust in the first chapter of book 6, because he said that he gave Voldemort the information that led to her murder. This troper usually used that statement as backup for her belief that Snape really was evil. In this book, he was revealed to be good, but we never heard anything about Emmeline. Was she sacrificed for the good of the Order? Did Snape actually have little to do with her death and just bank on Bellatrix not knowing details? It didn't seem that he could have given information that indirectly led to her death, as she was implied to be murdered, not killed in some sort of battle or something. Does anyone know if JKR said anything on the subject? Or does anyone have any theories?
- Stan Shunpike just bugs me. First, in book 6, it just bugs me that the Ministry is considered to be True Evil for arresting him because he's obviously not a death eater, he's just joking about it. Um, going around bragging about how you're a terrorist and have all these terrorist attacks planned is going to get you thrown into jail in the muggle world too, even if it is just empty boasting. Then, in book 7, it turns out that hey, the Ministry was right! Stan's one of the guys who tries to attack Harry when they're taking him from Privet Drive, and Harry has not a second of reflection that maybe the Ministry did something right or that he might be wrong, he only says Stan's obviously imperiused. Now, on a mission to eliminate the one you think is literally the only person who can stop you, would you send some useless mind-controlled drone if you had anyone else available? And really, why would you bother to imperius Stan Shunpike, of all people, when you could probably effectively imperius the vast majority of Wizarding Britain's population. The conclusion anyone who hasn't already given Harry an omniscient morality license would reach is that yes, Stan Shunpike is and was a Death Eater, particularly given the skepticism already shown to the "but I was imperiused" excuse in previous books. Especially when Harry only knows Stan from a few rides on the Knight Bus and a couple glances of him as a comic relief character.
- Well, the only one who actually cares about Stan's imprisonment is Harry, and he's largely an idiot. But to be honest to him, the real problem with the Ministry is not that they arrested Stan, but rather that it was their only achievement (not to mention, of course, the whole ordeal with Umbridge). They are not evil as much as horrendously stupid and incompetent. As for the chase scene in Book 7, while I agree in general, I can at least think of a reason to Imperio Stan: although it'd be uncharacteristically brilliant for him, V could've sent an obviously innocent (well, from Harry's POV, at least) Imperioused person sent after each of the seven dopplegangers to root out the real Potter.
- It's generally accepted by the adults, or at least Mr. Weasley, that Stan isn't a Death Eater and the Ministry just wanted to look like they were doing anything. They interrogated him and had no reason to suspect him of any Death Eater activity, but they wanted to act like they'd made an accomplishment. And how many Death Eaters do they really have? Malfoy doesn't have a wand, and there were a bunch who were doing other things. Sure, they could take control of the majority of the population, but that's probably a lot of effort. Stan Shunpike was in Azkaban, which the Death Eaters pretty much control, so he's easily accessible.
- Even assuming Stan Shunpike is not a Death Eater, getting thrown in jail for going around bragging about your terrorist plans is completely reasonable. Try going to an airport, shouting that you have a bomb, and saying "yeah, I was just trying to impress my dumbass friends" when the cops come to get you and see how long you stay out of prison. Now that going to Azkaban no longer involves having all of your happiness and your soul slowly sucked away, it really isn't disproportionate retribution. There are also legitimate, non-venal reasons for wanting to reassure the public and avoid widespread panic, as well as for not entrusting the fate of your nation to three 17-year-old kids. McGonagall and the rest of the Order try and pressure the trio to tell them what they're doing too. No, the Ministry doesn't really deserve a whole lot of trust from Harry & Co., but with Fudge gone they also started publishing useful pamphlets and info. Really, the only thing that the Scrimgeour administration does that is "wrong" is not firing and arresting Umbridge (which, to be fair, is a pretty big one).
- I don't think anyone, even Harry, was arguing that arresting Stan Shunpike was an unforgivable sin. At the moment that he made the claim, yes, security concerns completely justified hauling him in for questioning, at the very least. The problem was that, once it became clear that Stan was just a blithering idiot and not an actual terrorist, the Ministry continued to detain him without charges, simply so they could point to him as evidence that their anti-Voldemort campaign was going well. Keeping someone imprisoned indefinitely without hope for release for a couple stupid remarks, even minus the constant Mind Rape, most certainly IS still Disproportionate Retribution. At very least, if Scrimgeour wanted public support from Dumbledore and Harry then he should've been prepared to release Stan as a gesture of good faith; that he wouldn't budge even on that demonstrates him to be a bad leader, despite being miles ahead of Fudge.
- Stan Shunpike is also one of the most likely candidates for a new Death Eater. He's a nobody who likes to pretend he's a somebody. He's weak and he knows it. He's one of the downtrodden and disrespected members of society. A new, powerful gang comes along and is recruiting. He matches the profile to a T for kids who get recruited into street gangs and drug dealing- the offer of being part of a cohesive group, the glamour of power over others, the instantaneous respect and awe you get from your peers. When Scrimgouer said Stan was arrested as a Death Eater, I believed him. Harry's met the guy... once? Good job, Harry.
- It is still incredibly shaky ground to go from "has the potential to be a criminal at some point in the future" to "hold this man without charges indefinately". If they had any proof they would have actually bothered to put him on trial.
- I wasn't saying they should have arrested all at-risk youths. I'm saying that Harry has met Stan for all of ten seconds or so, and from those ten seconds we know he's they kind of person who would join a gang, and he was arrested for boasting that he had joined a gang... Harry pretty much has no right claiming the Ministry was being evil when what little evidence he had to go on pointed towards the ministry being right. And, at minimum, he probably should have been arrested anyway for claiming to be a terrorist.
- He was flaunting his association with the enemy in the times of war. He should've been happy they bothered with keeping him in prison at all and didn't just AK him right away.
- One more reason Stan's a good candidate for recruitment by the Death Eaters: Scrimgeour's administration gives him every reason to hate the Ministry when it denies him a trial. This troper assumed that was the point of his character, to show that the authorities' unjust methods were actually driving otherwise-neutral people into Voldemort's service.
- Look at it this way: Stan is in a crappy, repetitious job as a bus conducted, likely not being paid very much. He's frustrated with this and feels that he deserves something more from life. He doesn't want to put real work into getting any further, so he buys into the widespread mentality that the reason for all of life's problems is muggleborns, muggleborns stealing jobs and changing wizarding culture and such, so he joins the Death Eaters. It's like how people react to immigrants in real life - they're a scapegoat. Just look at the UK today, with people joint groups such as the EDL because their lives haven't gone very well and they want someone to blame.
- I myself Immeadetly assumed in Part 7 that Stan was put under the Imperius curse, wich is pretty likely in my eyes.
Ron's driving test
- On the subject of manipulating people. When Hermione had been changing her parents' personalities (as discussed above), she at least had the valid excuse that she was protecting them and even so she had felt terrible about it. Fast forward to the finale, where all the heroes grew up happily in the new, ostensibly more enlightened, open-minded and conscientious Wizarding world. What are we told in a non-chalant, humorous and matter-of-fact way? That Ron (who's apparently an Auror(!) now) put the Confundus Spell (basically "Imperius Lite") on a random innocent Muggle...in order to pass his driving test. What. The. Fuck. I mean, he could've taken the test again (I took it about 7 times before I passed), or, hell, he could've bribed the instructor, which would've been bad, of course, but a normal, amicable kind of bad. But nope, he just took his mighty wand out and subdued the feeble Muggle mind and then treated it like a joke. Suddenly, Ron the Death Eater doesn't look so absurd anymore.
- The Confundus Charm doesn't honestly seem to be treated like a big deal by the characters. It's less an Imperius curse and more like just confusing someone. It's like if you talk someone into doing something by just going off on a tangent, almost. Hermione did it on Cormac McLaggen, and Dawlish had it done to him about four times, and it's been used before casually, though I can't think of other examples. And why is bribery better? It's still using an unfair advantage that you have over someone to get them to do something that they shouldn't.
- It's better because at least it doesn't violate free will, for the potential bribee is perfectly capable of refusing. Anyway, I only mentioned bribery as a more admissable way to cheat then Mind Rape. Naturally, the right thing to do would be to appoint another test and train harder for it. As for the harmless nature of Confundus, I beg to disagree. Reread the DH, where Snape Confunds Mundungus into suggesting the plan with seven Potters to the order. It doesn't look like "confusing someone" as much as "hypnotising someone into doing exactly as told, including forgetting about being hypnotised". Sure, it's much less severe then Imperious, hence "Imperious Lite". But it's one thing when it's done by a stupid teenager or in times of war, and a whole lot another when it's casually performed by an adult(and Auror at that) for such a triffle reason and treated as a joke. Dark Side always starts from small things.
- Most of the wizarding world considers screwing around with someone else's mind to really not be that big a deal, unless it gets so far that it completely subsumes the identity and will of the victim and turns them into a puppet/tool of the caster, which is why the imperius is still an unforgivable. Just like a bar fight for us is usually, while not cool, also not a huge deal unless it goes so far that someone pulls a knife or a gun or gets beaten to an inch of their life. Wizards casually obliviate, confund, and use legilimency and love charms on each other and muggles all the time. Many muggles and way too many fanfic writers (judging from the number of times I've read Harry-Gets-Insanely-Pissed-At-Snape-And/Or-Dumbles-For-Using-Legilimency-On-Him in a fic, because, hey, all fanfic writers are muggles) consider all that to be mind rape. And that's why we have a trope called Values Dissonance. A wizard who's been confunded will be a little annoyed, possibly more depending on what they did while confunded, but otherwise will get over it. Ron is one of the more clueless about the muggle world of the wizards, he considers being confunded no big deal, he can't fathom why someone else would think it was, just like you seem unable to fathom how someone else could consider it to be anything but mind rape.
- While all you say is generally true, it still bugs me because this incident took place in the end of the story. You know, when the heroes are supposed to have grown up, become more responsible, and learned something about the importance of doing what's right, not what's easy, after they'd witnessed the atrocities that ultimately result from the sence of self-superiority and abuse of power. You'd just think there would be some freaking change in their values, especially in regard to Muggles!
- Why? It's not like everyone's going to be perfect because they've been through a war. That's one of the powers of Harry Potter: the characters aren't perfect (witness, for instance, Hagrid's xenophobia and Sirius's contempt for Kreacher), but they're still good, because people are multifaceted. And hey, Muggles have had the whole "We've been through an atrocity so terrible that we can never do it again." At the time, they called it The Great War, or The War to End All Wars. Nowadays, we call it World War I, because humanity was dumb enough to start another one two decades later.
- "Humanity" is not an individual sentient being and the last sentence was a gross overgeneralisation. We're talking about one man who fought the evil first hand, then devoted his life to fighting other evils and then used pretty much the same underhanded techniqques that evil did (again, yes, the scale was much smaller, but that's why the slippery slope is called the slope).
- Besides, it's not like the Confundus Charm robs anyone of their free will, it just confuses them. It's less "yes master, I will pass you" and more "you didn't check your mirrors...did you? Oh of course you did, my mistake".
- AGAIN, reread the scene in DH, where Snape Confunds Mundungus into suggesting the plan with seven Potters to the Order. It doesn't look like "confusing someone" as much as "hypnotising someone into doing exactly as told, including forgetting about being hypnotised". Sure, it's still much less severe then Imperious, hence "Imperious Lite". But it's one thing when it's done by a stupid teenager or in times of war, and a whole lot another when it's casually performed by an adult(and Auror at that) for such a triffle reason and treated as a joke.
- I think it's the fact that it is for such a minuscule reason that it's not considered serious. He slightly baffled some minor Muggle official for a piece of paper/plastic he didn't particularly need in the first place. If there's malice to be found in that, I certainly can't see it. Also, how do we know that Snape's Confunding of Mundungus actually hypnotised him? Maybe it just put into a trance-like state where he would be receptive to anything Snape told him (though not necessarily overpowered by it), was given a set of tactics by Snape, and when he snapped out of it found himself possessed of some genuinely good tactics, so decided to pass them along. Less like brainwashing, more Inception.
- Seeing how the working title of Inception was Mind Rape: The Movie, I don't think it's a good example. Yes, it may not overpower one's will completely, but it still messes with their mind. How do we even know that it bears no long-lasting consequences for psyche? Sure, they'd hardly be severe, more like a slap on the face than a kick in the nuts, but it is still violence, and it damn better have some justification. Forgive me for my naivety, but I thought that if there was one lesson the'd certainly get out of the whole fucking war, it wouold be the respect for free will.
- Why didn't Harry and co. summon Kreacher when they were held by the Malfoys? Maybe they didn't think of it at first, but once Dobby showed up, you'd think that they'd have thought, "Hey, House Elves are really helpful in this situation, maybe two would be better and safer for all involved."
- For that matter, why did they never summon Kreacher? They were worried about him and what was happening at Grimmauld Place. Isn't it possible that the Ministry might have captured him and tortured him for serving the enemy? Why weren't they more concerned?
- If it did, then summoning him would probably lead the enemy to the Trio. On the other hand, it'd been already established that elves, when not bound by their conditioning, can stand for themselves just fine.
- How would they follow him? We've never seen anything in canon that can track a house-elf. And they already know that Bellatrix or Narcissa can't give Kreacher any orders if Harry has ordered Kreacher not to accept them; they tested that in book 6.
- Well, neither did we know untill the book 7 that saying V's name could be a bad thing. The point is that summoning him would've been a great risk, and avoiding it was one of the few smart things the Trio did.
- Perhaps house elves are not quite as useful as people think, and cannot apparate into other people's property. Otherwise, at some point, they'd be used as thieves and assassins. It's worth noting that Dobby does not appear to apparate into Harry's house in the second book, either. So how did Dobby get into Malfoy Manor? Because Lucius freed him without actually 'firing' him. I.e., the magic binding Dobby to Lucius was removed...but Dobby still 'worked' for him, and thus, technically, still had access to Malfoy Manor, because at no point did Lucius say 'You are no longer in my employ, Dobby'.
- The book states they were afraid to summon Kreacher at first because Yaxley had gotten inside Grimmauld Place at that point, and they were afraid Kreacher wouldn't be able to Apparate to them without a Death Eater trying to tag along, like Yaxley had with Hermione in the first place. As time went on, they would've realized that they hadn't a clue as to Kreacher's location or the situation he was in, and thus wouldn't have known whether they could safely summon him. As for why they didn't think to it inside Malfoy Manor, they weren't thinking at the time, "Hey, house elves are cool, let's call in another one, der-her-her!" They were in the middle of an escape mission from their enemy's base, and they didn't want to bring in any more potential casualties than they already had with Dobby, in addition to the reasons listed above.
Pettegrew not killing Harry
- Since V was absolutely adamant that only he was allowed to kill Potter, why was Pettegrew's reluctance to do it considered a sign of treason punishable by death?
- This is more about the fact that even if Voldy allowed him to kill Potter, Pettegrew still wouldn't do it. It's more about "If I let you kill him, would you want to do it?" than actually killing him.
- Peter's hand turned on him not because of his hesitation, but because of why he hesitated. He was reminded of the life debt and, rather than keep trying to kill Harry, he showed a moment of pity and doubt about killing the boy. That moment was enough to seal Peter's doom, since showing pity towards Voldemort's enemy is tantamount to a full betrayal of the Dark Lord.
- Why is Parseltongue now a learnable language? It's been established since book 2 that Parseltongue is a magical language, it can't be learned by any normal means and is strictly hereditary (barring otherwise unnatural soul transferences). How, then, is Ron able to simply memorize a sound with a particular meaning, and then repeat the sound? That's pretty much the definition of learning a language- you learn the sound, associate it with the proper meaning, and repeat the sound. Grammar and syntax can be figured out after you've built up a decent vocabulary.
- To tell the truth, Ron only "learned" one word, it was the only word Harry uttered in his presence, and it'd been pretty obvious that the word means "open", so he didn't need to accociate anything. It is still a giant Ass Pull, of course, because the Parseltongue is not hissing - it is merely how the profane percieve it. It is the same as if somebody managed to imitate the sound of a working dial-up moded and expected to be able to establish a valid internet-connection that way.
- The Chamber entrance wasn't keyed to fluency in Parseltongue, only to a specific vocal sound which just happened to have a meaning in Parseltongue. It worked for the same reason that McGonagall, who had no idea what a "lemon drop" was, could still have used the sound of that phrase to access Dumbledore's office door.
- Parseltongue was established as a "learnable language" in Book 6, actually; it's fairly clear from the Gaunt flashback that Dumbledore can understand it, even if he can't speak it (although he probably would've been able to repeat a couple of basic words if necessary). I got the sense that it was somewhat similar to Mermish or Gobbledegook - the rapid speech patterns and strained noises required to communicate in it makes it very difficult for humans to learn, but not impossible (makes me wonder if Barty Crouch Sr., speaker of "over two hundred" languages, knew Parseltongue as well). Salazar's line just so happens to be genetically predispositioned to speaking/understanding snake-language instinctively, but that doesn't necessarily mean that that is the only way to learn.
- No, that doesn't show any learning at all. The memory was extracted from a parseltongue-speaker, and I assume that Dumbledore could only understand because he is literally watching someone's perceptions. Harry doesn't have to consciously interpret parseltongue, and thus any memory extracted from Harry would probably also be automatically translated. Again, it's also been stated outright in canon that it can only be understood by someone with the innate trait, not that it was simply a language spoken by a magical species that is "difficult" to learn.
- Err...no, that memory comes from Bob Ogden, who doesn't understand a lick of Parseltongue. So there really is no other conclusion to reach than that Dumbledore knows some amount of Parseltongue, and that it is therefore a learnable language...if still an incredibly difficult one.
- How easily forgiven Ron is. Seriously. He rage-quits on the group and just leaves, after being bitchy for what might have been months! He LEFT them, and they could have been dead for all he knew! Harry and Hermione went through a lot without him. And suddenly Ron saves Harry's life and everything is A-OK with Harry? Hermione should have been allowed to kick the stuffing out of Ron and then throw his whiny ass out back to Shell Cottage! NOTHING justifies allowing Ron back into the group!
- Because saving Harry's life, retrieving the sword of Gryffindor, AND destroying the Horcrux that has been tormenting them for months on-end apparently qualifies as "nothing."
- And besides, Hermione calls him out on ALL of what you just stated. Which, incidentally, he outright states that he feels is entirely justified. But they were miserable without Ron's presence and have precious few allies to begin with; ultimately, they were incredibly glad to have him back, and forgave his personal failings (eventually) in light of his recent heroism. Ron isn't perfect, but he IS a courageous and loyal friend, and your suggestion that they reject his return for petty personal reasons is, frankly, ridiculous.
- I like how you consider abandoning your friends at their greatest time of need constitutes loyalty. It's not the first time he's done that. In fact, inviting him back is the "petty personal reason"- they were lonely without him, but it didn't slow them down on their mission.
- And I like how you and the rest of the Ron the Death Eater crowd seem determined, somehow, to ignore all manner of canon in order to paint Ron Weasley as a horrible selfish monster, instead of the well-rounded, heroic-but-flawed character he actually is. For one thing, you're forgetting the (rather paramount) influence of the Locket; he left them in one moment of weakness because the thing had been preying on his insecurities and doubts for months. Cracking under that kind of strain, particularly as he immediately wanted to go back as soon as his head was cleared of the Horcrux's "voice," is not an unforgivable offense.
- Anyone who sees Ron's flaws for what they are is automatically Ron the Death Eater, eh? Ron-lovers, however, just attribute characteristics that don't fit. Ron has turned tail twice in four years. That pretty much precludes the possibility of defining him as "Loyal." Hermione and Harry remained loyal to each other and the mission. The locket was affecting all of them equally- they shared the locket between them, remember? The horcrux only put them in a bad mood- no real change in personality. There's no reason to assume it affected Ron more unless you're just looking for an excuse for him. Saying that he only did so "in a moment of weakness" really doesn't help the case. If a person is only loyal until they have a "moment of weakness" then the are not, by definition, loyal.
- Wait, it "didn't slow them down"? From a Horcrux-hunting standpoint, Harry and Hermione make absolutely no progress during the period that Ron was separated from them. Then, in a couple hours, BOOM: Ron returns, they get the sword, and the Horcrux is gone! That's gotta go a long way toward patching up lingering hurt feelings, and even then Hermione felt the need to both verbally and physically abuse him to drive the point home (which, again, Ron considered fully justified).
- You seem to be mistaking coincidence with causality. They happened to find the sword at the same time Ron happened to come back. Did Ron bring the sword to them? No. Snape did. He put the sword there, he cast the patronus. There's a good chance that if Ron didn't pull Harry out, Snape would have.
- So ultimately, Ron is not a perfect character. He's also not the raging, horrible, flighty, immature jerkass you seem to consider him. He's a basically good man who was in a particularly vulnerable spot and taken advantage of by a pure-evil object containing the soul of Wizard!Hitler, but who ultimately resisted its temptations at the final turning point and killed it, before going right back to the "courageous and loyal friend" mentioned above. Or do you have a case you'd like to argue where Ron behaved this way after the Locket debacle? Because expecting them to throw their best friend out on his ass based on some imagined slights that never actually materialized is, once again, freaking ridiculous.
- Hi, just to butt into your argument for a second. Ron only destroyed the locket because Harry wanted him to, so that really isn't a plus for Ron's character. Also considering the "Locket Debacle" is when the story picks up again means there is never another lull for Ron to desert them again doesn't mean he's gotten any better. If this was the first time He'd done this there might be some sympathy but considering he did it in their 4th year as well it sets itself up as a pattern, not the one off that you are so desperately trying to make it. Also given your excuse of him being under the influence of Wizard!Hitler then Harry and Hermione should have snapped as well. By your logic Harry should be forgiven every bad thing that he has ever done and he's perfect in every way because he has been carrying a horcrux in his scar since age 1 and you can't tell me one truly bad thing he's done ever since he got rid of it.
- Well, on the subject of Ron being the only one who cracks: Every person is different and has different flaws and weakpoints. Ron happens to be selfconscious and having and inferiority complex, which is the Perfect point for the horcrux to exploit, which it does. Just like harry suffers under dementors most of all, because of his past, Ron suffers from the horcrux most, because, it was already established, that he has inferiority and selfconsciousness issues, brought up to the eleven by the necklace. And, as much as falling victim to the Dementors doesn't make harry a coward and a weakling, neither does falling for the horcrux Ron an traitor - he just happens to have a flaw best exploited by the necklace.
- Yeah, Harry faints to dementors, but he doesn't faint when confronted with non-magically induced fear. Horcruxes aren't the only thing in the series that's led Ron to abandon Harry. If the horcrux was a one-time thing throughout the series, then it's totally understandable. Ron's fandom igores the fact that he did this in Goblet of Fire, no horcruxes required. Then they just assume he's a changed man and will never let it happen again. When it happens again in DH, they say it's all the horcrux's fault, and none of it is because of Ron's inherent character traits. I don't buy that.
- I feel the need to point out that Ron said something like he wanted to come back as soon as he left (i.e. as soon as the Horcrux was off and he could think clearly again) but got caught by Snatchers and then couldn't find Harry and Hermione because of the protective enchantments. Seems to me like this moment of weakness was only a few minutes long, not months. Ok, yes, it was still a rotten thing to do, but you can't hold one mistake (or two, if you count Goblet of Fire) against him forever. Otherwise people like Snape and Dumbledore and, hell, everyone are also evil. For another thing, I think people really blow the Goblet of Fire incident out of proportion. Ron didn't do anything unforgiveably terrible to Harry. He had a fight with him. A stupid, petty fight, yes, but they were teenagers! Plenty of teenagers have fights like that every other week. No relationship is completely free of conflict. No one ever says Harry is a despicable excuse for a human being for constantly snapping and yelling at Ron and Hermione in OotP, or when he abandoned Hermione over a broomstick in PoA. At least Ron's fight with her then was justified (he thought her pet killed his and she was refusing to apologize) Now who sounds the most douchey in those cases, Harry or Ron? My point is, if you can forgive other characters for flaws, why not Ron? No one is saying he's perfect.
- "forgivable" and "forgettable" are different. What Ron did was essentially throw away 3 years worth of trust- he refused to hear Harry's side of the story for his own petty feelings. You could forgive him for something like that, eventually, but it's unwise to just forget that it ever happened. The fact that he still harbored feelings of jealousy which the locket preyed upon exemplifies that. I think this is a problem with the series as a whole, not just Ron - "forgiveness" seems to equate to "forget it ever happened." Harry brushes all bad incidents under the rug when he forgives someone. Most readers just follow his train of thought, but I like to place myself in the character's shoes and wonder what I would have done. Ron isn't evil, but if I met him in real life he's not the kind of guy I would be friends with for long. This brings me waaay back to the OP's question: Ron is forgiven easily because Harry seems to play the "forget it ever happened" card whenever he forgives someone. He seems to treat every incident as an isolated case- Draco is forgiven because he didn't identify Harry at the Manor, and Harry just forgets that Draco has been doing many bad things (especially in 6th year). Peter Pettigrew... well, he's pretty much second to Voldemort for ruining Harry's life, but as soon as Peter hesitates to kill, Harry thinks the man's redeemed himself (seconds before his death, of course).
- In the GOF fight, Harry contributed as much to that as Ron did. Ron starts out as just disappointed because he thinks Harry is keeping secrets from him — which in turn sets Harry off because he had been sure Ron would believe him. It's not just that Ron refuses to hear Harry's side of the story for his own petty feelings, it's also that Harry refuses to tell him, for his own petty feelings. He refuses to even talk to Ron and gets angry with Hermione for suggesting he should. The fight goes on for as long as it does because both Harry and Ron are being stubborn and refusing to see each other's point of view. Harry's actually being the nastier of the two; he calls Ron names and throws badges at him while Ron just stays away; he doesn't retaliate at all (which is certainly unusual for him as he usually has no problems getting into fights or arguments). I think that because the books are told from Harry's POV, it's a lot easier for the reader to excuse or justify his behavior and forget that Harry's not the put-upon victim some people like to paint him as; he gives as good as he gets and then some.
- Excuse me, what Harry's side of the story? He's got shoved into the Tournament. The end. That's the whole story, and Weasel knew it. Harry had nothing to tell him or to prove his innocence with, so it was a matter of trust. Weasel could've simply trusted that his friend would never do something like that. But instead he let his envy, fueled by his raging inferiority complex, get the better of him, and acted like an asshole. And with the whole school eager to accuse him of cheating, being shamefully unhelpful or, in case of Gryphs, acting moronically cheerful, of course Harry would turn to his only friend for closure and support. And imagine how betrayed he must've felt, when his "friend", whose sister, by the way, Harry had saved from certain death, jumped on that insane bandwagon as well! Of course he snapped! And he resufed to talk to the idiot, because there was nothing he could've said what he hadn't said already.
- That's my exact point. Harry behaved like an asshole — giving us a pretty good preview of his behavior in OotP, by the way; same anger, same refusal to be mature — but because the story is told from his point of view we see why he behaved like an asshole. We understand. We've been with the guy through his best and his worst and seen things the way he saw them. We don't get a similar insight into Ron; for the most part we see him only through Harry's eyes, so we have only his actions to look at without getting to know how he thinks. Hence, people start calling him a traitor (or, in your case, "Weasel") and put all the blame for the fight on him. So all you say there is completely true — but it's also true that Harry also conveniently seems to forget the fact that Ron's the friend who's been inviting him to stay with his family every year, and who on two separate occasions has shown himself perfectly willing to sacrifice his life for Harry. Or that Harry's the one who makes with the insults and the physical attacks and escalates the conflict. Trying to present it so that Harry's all give and Ron is all take, or that Harry's perfectly innocent while Ron is to blame for everything, is a skewed presentation of their relationship at best.
- I am astounded at the number of people who think that two 14 year olds who already both have self esteem issues should be perfect human beings. THEY ARE BOTH 14 in Go F! Please think back to how you were at 14, or the people around you. A lot of teenage hormones and chemical imbalances in the brain makes for bad decisions. Just because they're characters in a book doesn't mean they can't have the very real emotions of 14 year olds.
- There's also the part where Ron Weasley is a big fat liar. He claims he wanted to come back shortly after getting away from the Horcrux, but he couldn't find them? In the book, Ron storms out circa the dinner hour... but Harry and Hermione don't move the tent until its almost noon the next day.
- You apparently missed the part that pointed out that Ron wasn't a big fat liar. He did want to come back shortly after getting away from the Horucrux around dinnertime. What you're forgetting is that Hermione had placed spells around the tent earlier so nobody could find them. If it hadn't been for Dumbledore's put-outer, he never would have found Harry and Hermione.
- I'm ignoring those spells because Ron was on the 'list of people allowed to find the tent', just like Harry and Hermione were. After all, it is their own tent. So no, Ron's still a big fat liar, because there's no way he actually came back in the time frame he claims he did.
- He says he couldn't return right away because he run into Snatchers and by the time he got away from them, H&H had already relocated. He couldn't find them after he was guided to them by the deluminator, which kinda makes sense, if the "list of people allowed to find the tent" is created anew every time the wards are cast and therefore couldn't include him.
- Yeah, that's my point: Ron's story there doesn't add up with the timing. The tent was not moved for approximately 12 hours (mid-evening one day to late morning the next day) after Ron left; the sequence of events that Ron describes happening would not have taken remotely that long. Dumbledore in his prime wouldn't have the endurance to fight an 11+-hour battle with an entire gang of enemy wizards single-handed, let alone a Hogwarts 7th-year. So unless Ron somehow managed to get lost behind a tree for 10 or so hours, Ron has to be stretching the truth somewhere along his storyline — most likely in the direction of 'how long he actually bummed around before deciding to come back'.
- Maybe he spent that time arguing with himself and fighting off the lingering influence of the Horcrux, Smeagol/Gollum style. Hell, maybe he passed out from it.
- Both of which would be wildly out of phase with that Horcrux' effects on the other two people with long-term exposure to it. And I'm not even referring to Ron's being the first one to let it get to him, I'm referring to the lack of blackouts and/or Battles Inside The Mind on either Harry or Hermione, even though they wore it for weeks and weeks longer than Ron. We have seen what it takes to get the locket horcrux to get you to start hallucinating; you have to open it first. So IOW, the above theory is not bloody likely. Ron just buggered off and then lied to cover it.
- Let's see. Ron Disapparates, immediately regrets what he's done and has the misfortune to run into a group of Snatchers. He tries to talk his way out of being taken to the Ministry, the Snatchers get into a fight, Ron grabs the opportunity to take one of their wands and Apparate away. He Splinches himself in the process and ends up in the wrong place anyway because he's "miles" (unspecified how many miles) away from the camp. He's in pain, he's lost two fingernails, he's not exactly in a place he knows well. Last time he Splinched himself he fainted — it might not be as serious this time, but he's probably in bad shape, and won't be able to move fast. So no, taking into account that we are talking about a wounded, tired, hungry and probably freaked-out human being rather than a tireless machine here, I don't think it's unlikely at all that he gets lost in the forest and doesn't manage to find the campsite again until it's too late. And "twelve hours," I think, is stretching it — we don't know exactly how much time it takes for Harry and Hermione to move on, but given how Harry goes to bed almost immediately after Ron leaves (and the narrative has referred to this happening "one night," not "one early evening"), it's probably quite late, and the narrative says they leave a "good hour" after they normally leave their campsite, nothing about "almost noon." I suppose, if we assume that they usually get late starts (can't find anything in the book that says one way or the other), that twelve hours could have passed, but likely it wasn't that much. So my point with all this: Ron's story is perfectly plausible. It is of course possible that he's not telling the truth, but saying that he must be lying and that it absolutely couldn't have happened that way seems to be a little close-minded.
- First off, it is not 'closed-minded' to follow Occam's Razor. Insisting that an extremely long chain of unsupported assumptions (the above is a lot of "what ifs" in succession, with not even a hint in canon to show that any of it happened) be given less weight than the much simpler explanation is only prudent practice. Second off, it is canonically provable that Ron told at least one significant and direct lie during that sequence; at the time Ron leaves he is vehement that the reason he is leaving is because he's supposedly worried about his sister and his parents. Except that he never goes to Hogwarts to check on Ginny, and never goes to where his parents are either. Not for months. He doesn't even send her a message (as we meet Ginny later, and she hasn't heard from Ron the entire time). So, the reason he claims he's leaving is not actually the reason he's leaving. Therefore, if we already know Ron is lying about why he left, its hardly far-fetched (much less "closed-minded") to go 'and the other unexplained discrepancies in his version of events are also due to Ron lying'.
- Mmm... one thing the OP doesn't seem to have taken into mind is that during the big fight between Harry and Ron, it's actually Harry who tells Ron to leave. Twice. And the second time adding an insult to it: "Then GO! Go back to them, pretend you're got over your spattergroit and Mummy'll be able to feed you up and —" In fact, Harry's being really nasty during this entire argument, and he's not even wearing the Horcrux. Now, Harry's actions are perfectly understandable; he's frustrated, he feels hopeless, he's lashing out and saying things he doesn't mean... but the Horcrux-wearing Ron isn't capable of thinking rationally at the time, so all he hears is "I don't want you around, so get lost." So... I do think that if we're going to call Ron out for leaving, I think we should at least take into account that he left because Harry explicitly told him to.
- Except that Harry only suggested that Ron leave after Ron told Harry that he (Ron) couldn't think of any reason he'd want to stick around. So, Ron actually did bring up his wish to leave first, Harry is just the one who lampshaded it.
- And Ron only told Harry this after Harry had asked him "why are you still here?" And in the argument they have, Harry is the one flinging the worst insults, Ron is mainly freaking about his family and ranting about how they haven't achieved anything (which is, let's face it, correct). Not saying that Ron was in the right for leaving, but turning Ron into the villain here and pretending Harry smells of roses is doing both characters a disservice.
- "The worst insults"? Ron starts the conversation off by calling Harry an idiot with no plan (immediately after Harry finally started to come up with one, no less), then accuses Harry & Hermione of being liars (when they deny conspiring to allegedly insult Ron behind his back), then calls Hermione a liar again about something else, then accuses Harry of not caring about the lives of anyone but himself (which is hitting the guy with a "saving people thing" directly in his emotional sore spot), and then goes on to throw Harry's dead parents in his face. Only after all this does Harry finally lose his temper, and really, Harry is showing the patience of a saint in being able to hold it in even this long. Trying to reframe the conversation as Ron Weasley being the reasonable one who is being unfairly put-upon by a vicious and insulting Harry Potter is entirely inaccurate; Ron from the very first sentence that leaves his mouth is deliberately throwing hurtful emotional barbs exactly where they'll sting the worst, and he keeps throwing them worse and worse right up to the very moment he leaves the tent.
- The patience of a saint? Have we even read the same book here? Harry's anger "comes to his defense" and he begins with the snide remarks right after Ron has said they're not achieving anything — which is before the fight escalates. My point in all this isn't to pretend Ron smells of roses and big, bad Harry is mean to him; my point is that they are both at fault, and laying all the blame on Ron, like people are all too fond of doing, is doing them both a disservice.
- Finally, whatever Ron's reasons for leaving, he came back. He admitted that he was at fault for the fight, Horcrux or not, but he still came back. People who demonise Ron all seem to forget the simple fact that Ron is the one who apologizes to Harry, both in the Goblet of Fire fight and in the Deathly Hallows one, not to mention that in the latter, he reveals his return by saving Harry's life! Actions speak louder than words, and that action shows that Ron truly is Harry's friend. He may not be perfect, but who is? Ron has shown time and again, that he is a loyal to his friends and family, and in a moment of weakness (which everyone has had, Horcrux related or not) he leaves. Regardless of how long it took for him to find his way back, he still returned to them. Ron is not and never will be a villain, and to anyone who says otherwise, ask yourselves this; a lot of you have probably had fights with your friends or family that are similar to the fights that Ron has gotten into, does that make you a horrible person?
- In order: Ron only came back after a Deus ex Machina literally led them there by the hand, as he wasn't making any efforts to do so on his own. Ron's apology in Goblet of Fire was epically half-hearted and inadequate to the situation, and wasn't even sincerely meant (as Ron goes on to lie to students at Hogwarts about his own fictional glory moments fighting mermen in the lake, when his entire issue with Harry was allegedly 'lying about being in the Tournament for cheap fame). And Ron's leaving them at the tent is not a mundane argument; its deserting his friends when they're on a life-and-death mission in enemy territory, which is serious business. Bonus points for Ron because he also tried to encourage Hermione to abandon Harry when he left... and if she'd done that then Harry would have died in Godric's Hollow. So yes, Ron in his own self-centered hypocritical stupidity came within a hair's whisker of destroying the entire plot and ensuring Voldemort's eternal reign over Magical Britain and failed to do so only because Hermione was a better person than he was, not because of any virtue or efforts of his own. And some of us just aren't going to feel forgiving about that.
- "Ron only came back after a Deus ex Machina literally led them there by the hand," how else was he going to find them? If he couldn't find them after trying to return the first time, it would be rather difficult for him to find them again because they could be anywhere in Britain. "And Ron's leaving them at the tent is not a mundane argument; its deserting his friends when they're on a life-and-death mission in enemy territory, which is 'serious business'", when he was being manipulated by the Horcrux, you know, the artifact that contains a piece of Voldemort's soul and filled anyone near it with negative emotions. That coupled with the stress and depression as they were realizing just what they were getting into was weighing down on them rather heavily and given Ron's personality and lifestyle, it's understandable he snapped first (Harry and Hermione weren't doing so well, either but they had a fair amount of experience of dealing with that; Ron does not). "And some of us just aren't going to feel forgiving about that." Then why forgive any of the other protagonists? Compared to the things the others have done (Harry using the Unforgivable Curses and Hermione wiping her parents memories, for starters), Ron's occasional fights aren't that bad by comparison. Finally, you have to ask yourselves what you would do in that situation. Would you stay through to the end or would you snap at some point and leave? If you say you would stay through to the end, you're probably not really considering just what that would be like (maybe you could, maybe you couldn't,but if there's one thing I've learned in life, it's never say or think "that will never happen to me," or "I would never do what so-and-so did".
- Several ways Ron could get back in touch with them come to mind, such as 'look up Remus and ask him to send Harry a Patronus message' (or maybe even send it himself as we know Ron can make a corporeal Patronus, although the 'message' technique might be an advanced level beyond that, I'm not sure), or 'go to Hogwarts and check on Ginny (something else Ron claimed he wanted to do but never did), because he knows that Harry spends a lot of time keeping track of Ginny with the Marauder's Map and is likely to respond if he sees Ron's name there too'. Ron might even have just sent them an owl (while mail wards exist in the author's FAQ, we have no indication that Hermione or Harry know how to make one or were using one). Ron does none of this. He is visibly not interested in actually exerting himself to get back in contact with Harry; he just sits and waits for someone or something else to do it for him.
- It's doubtful those would have worked. Sending them an owl wouldn't have: Hermione put up so many defensive and secrecy spells around their tent that at least one of them had to be a mail ward, otherwise they'd get dozens of letters daily from Mrs. Weasley begging them to come home. Going to Hogwarts to check on Ginny in hopes of Harry seeing him in the Map is a phenomenally bad idea: Ron would blow his cover by putting himself in a place where Death Eaters are ruling and where half the people there recognize him. There's also no indication that Ron knew Harry was watching Ginny on the map, and if Ron had he likely would have objected it like when he sternly told off Harry for kissing Ginny despite their "breakup". Even then, Harry could easily miss Ron's name among the hundreds of names there, and even then Harry would know better than to go to Hogwarts then and get all the Death Eaters on him. The Patronus plan may or may not work: we don't know enough about Patronus messages to know, but we do know that Ron was fairly bad at casting a corporeal Patronus last time we saw him try. Given that he hadn't improved any on Apparating without splinching himself by then, he likely might have been unable to perform something that complicated as a Patronus tracking down his friends to deliver a message.
- If we're going with a logic of 'well, we're never told it happened but it had to have happened because that would make sense' re: mail wards, should we not also go with that same logic re: Ron noticing Harry using the map because he's spending hours at a time doing so in a small tent they all live in? Plus, the mail ward is optional to my argument anyhoo). As for the Patronus plan, that would work, we have canon evidence — Snape's Patronus is entirely able to find Harry and Hermione and lead them to the Sword of Gryffindor despite all of Hermione's spells. As for Ron allegedly being caught at Hogwarts — later on in the book the gang has no trouble sneaking into Hogwarts via the passage and finding the gang in the Room of Requirement, so what stops Ron from doing it earlier? But most importantly, the complaint isn't that Ron succeeded in contacting them again, its that he didn't try to. Which means that the odds of success or failure become largely irrelevant, as the only thing he'd needed to have done to answer this criticism is make an attempt, successful or not. If there was even one paragraph of text after the reunion scene of 'Look, I tried sending you an owl but Hermione blocked that out, I tried finding someone to teach me the Patronus message thingy but Bill wouldn't show me...', we wouldn't be able to criticize him. But he didn't, there wasn't, and so we can.
- Snape's patronus could only find Harry and Hermione once he knew where they were (the forest of Dean), half the reason it took so long to get the sword to them was that he couldn't find them. The three of them nearly get caught in Hogsmeade due to the charms in place, it's only Abeforth's interruption that saves them. Without his help they never would have made it into Hogwarts as the only safe passage in was through Ariana's portrait. If Ron blundered into Hogsmeade without the invisibility cloak he would have immediately gotten caught, and considering he's supposed to be at home ill he's also put his entire family in danger.
- It also occurs that Ron looks slightly more of a Jerkass than he already did once he reaches Shell Cottage and safety, because he doesn't try to get any message back to the group. At the time Ron leaves they were suffering problems of lack of supplies, safety, and research opportunities — but Shell Cottage has safety (its even Fidelius Charmed) and supplies, and an experienced Curse-Breaker to help them research. In fact, the gang uses Shell Cottage as a refuge later in the story. So, Ron, once you reached safety, warmth, and food, why didn't you feel any great urge to share?
- Regarding 'why forgive the other protagonists', the answer is 'because whatever else they fucked up, they did not actually desert their comrades in the middle of a war, when the fate of Magical Britain was depending on the success of their mission'. Ron's fuckup may have had any number of reasons for occurring, but the reasons are not sufficient mitigation because he's not insane enough to legitimately plead the "diminished capacity" defense and nothing else is an ethical justification for deserting in the face of the enemy.
- Yes a 17 year old boy who's never known hardship like what he's dealing with right now, plus a magical locket which is feeding and increasing all his negative feelings, leaving his friends and then immediately wanting to come back, is exactly the same as a soldier deserting.
Evacuating through Hogsmeade
- So, on the verge of the final battle they are evacuating smaller kids through the secret passage to Hogsmeade...that is teeming with Death Eaters and Dementors and has anti-apparition alarms. Aren't they missing something with that brilliant idea?
- Considering that the Death Eaters were too busy leading with the battle at Hogwarts, I really doubt that they would cause trouble at Hogsmeade. As for the dementors, I bet they could arrange the kids to be put into groups with one student who could do a Patronus I bet there are a few of them that can do it even if it's difficult to do.
- Plus, it's fairly likely that most, if not all of the dementors stationed in Hogsmeade would have been repurposed for the Battle of Hogwarts. Harry's point to McGonagall is fairly sound; with all of Voldemort's forces focused solely on attacking Hogwarts Castle, security surrounding Hogsmeade would be rather lax. And as for the last point, since the remaining Order members were apparating directly into the Hog's Head, I think it's pretty clear that Aberforth somehow managed to prevent his pub from being affected by the "alarms."
- What was the charm to protect Grimmauld Place supposed to do? All that Snape would have done is say "kill". Or something. -Nothing too dangerous or difficult.
- The shut-off trigger for the enchantment wasn't the word "kill;" it was the spell realizing that whoever was entering was not Severus Snape. Since Snape never enters the house after Moody sets up "Old Dusty," we have no idea exactly what it would have done, but it's probably safe to assume that it wouldn't be pretty.
- Why the hell didn't Voldie hide at least one of his horcruxes in the Chamber of Secrets? he thought that he was the only person ever to find the Room of requirement, but that's in a relatively accessible place. And he didn't even bother to curse the diadem or anything. The Chamber of Secrets he could've been sure that only he could get into it being the last Parseltongue on earth.
- Presumably, he didn't want one Horcrux (the Diary) to act as a "key" for any of the others. Remember that, while Voldemort might have considered it within reason that someone (i.e. Regulus) could figure out that he had a Horcrux, he was absolutely certain that no one would ever figure out that he had Horcruxes, plural. Since the Diary was intended to be used someday to reopen the Chamber and release Salazar's Basilisk upon a new generation of Muggleborns, he wouldn't have wanted to risk two Horcruxes (and thus the exposure of his use of multiple Soul Jars) should that plan go south. Better to hide the Diadem in the unrelated but (in his estimation) just as impossible-to-find Room of Requirement.
- Oh, and plus, its general agreed-upon that he hid the Diadem either right before or right after his job interview with Dumbledore. That means he would've been fairly pressed for time so as not to alert the headmaster's suspicions, which would probably prohibit him from visiting the Chamber or placing more intricate protections on the Diadem.
- WMG: After killing Myrtle, he knew Dumbledore suspected him as the real culprit and knew about the chamber of secrets. He assumed Dumbledore would have had plenty of time to investigate, especially after he became the Headmaster of Hogwarts.
- Voldemort was never stated to be the last Parselmouth on Earth. He was the last descendent of Salazar Slytherin, and possibly the only Parselmouth in Great Britain, but it's certainly possible that there are other families of Parselmouths in other parts of the world, one of which might one day immigrate to Britain or get hired as a Hogwarts teacher from overseas.
- You seem to be forgetting two things here:
- 1. There was a Basilisk living in the Chamber. You know, one of the few things able to destroy a Horcrux? And being a living creature, it could easily have done so by accident.
- 2. The attacks stopped after Myrtle was killed. Imagine if he'd gone to hide something in the Chamber and she'd seen him. Not only would that potentially give away the location of the Chamber itself, but the identity of the Heir, and the fact he was trying to get in to hide something - even if they hadn't worked out it was a Horcrux, whoever she told would be VERY interested to know that Tom Riddle had his hands on whichever Founder's object it was...
Explaining to Griphook
- Why didn't Harry, Ron, and Hermione try explaining to Griphook that they needed to hold on to the sword? Harry actually mentions that while Griphook's deal is that he gets the sword, he doesn't stipulate when. Why not, when they were initially trying to get Griphook's help, tell him that the sword is necessary to defeat Voldemort, and that it will be a while before he can get it. He may have said no, of course, but is that any reason not to try?
- Griphook was already on the verge of flipping out at them as it was; they had to pacify him by consenting to his demands, and even the slightest explanation of why they need the sword might tick him off. Griphook didn't really give them much room to speak. Besides—even if the Trio didn't know about it—he was working for Voldemort. Would he have been swayed by their explanation?
- Working for Voldemort? What gives you that idea? (Sure, working against Harry is indirectly helping Voldemort, but it's not at all the same thing, especially as Griphook doesn't know anything about the Horcrux Quest.)
- Regarding Griphook and the sword: What happened when the sword suddenly disappeared - which I assume is what happens when Neville pulls it out of the hat? Does Griphook try to find it? Is it given back? Does it confirm his suspicions about the sneakiness of wizards, regardless of context?
- Which is another issue that the movie had rectified by having V kill the little snot during his rampage. Let's assume that's what happened here as well.
- Not sure if this is fanon, or Word of God, or what, but Goblins are notorious for maintaining neutrality in the Wizarding world. It's probably the only way they've managed to keep their positions at Gringotts, (aside from the fact that it's the only bank in Wizarding Britain). If the Goblins were ever to take a side in anything, then when the next regime came into power, they'd be booted out. They stick to their jobs, holding peoples' money and possessions, regardless of their political beliefs, blood status, or evil/good alignment. That way, they're everyone's friend. Now, the Goblins may or may not be particularly wary of Voldemort; I doubt that he'd treat the goblins kindly, but he's never vocalized a particular stance against them- at least, that I remember. Feel free to call me out on this. Suppose that Harry tells Griphook about their plans. That immediately puts their 'neutrality' status at risk. If someone started telling me their plans to take down the leader of a faction, and I was trying to stay neutral in the conflict for my own safety, I'd be sticking my fingers in my ears and saying, "La La La La!" You can definitely expect that he might not have been as helpful- even less so than he already was- if he knew they were planning on taking down the group that currently controlled the government.
Apparating from the dragon
- When the Trio are flying the dragon after the heist, Harry is concerned about when and where the dragon is going to land, and whether it decides to fly oversea and what if it notices and wants to eat them...uhm, why don't they just apparate away?
- Because they would apparate with the dragon, or at least part of the dragon? There is canon evidence that you can side-apparate with someone else accidentally by grabbing into him/her(Hermione brought their persecutors to grimauld place that way) so they might not want to risk it.
- That's kind of a stretch. One thing is an actively pursuing them wizard who actually grabbed Hermie, and another is a dragon they merely ride on. It's not like they were commonly apparating parts of the landscape with them, is it? And even if they do take a part of the dragon with them, well, sucks to be the dragon. As for the risk, again, Harry was worried (rather legitimately, I might add) that the dragon will take god know where or just eat them. What was there to risk?
- The wizard merely grabbed their robes, and got side apparated with them(Either because they haven't practiced enough to select who gets side apparated, or everyone you're "touching" gets aparatted when you side-apparate), they were in the dragon, so either they transport a chunk of the dragon with them, or the whole dragon. The trio aren't precisely know for risking the life of anything they might consider sentient innecesarily.
- Nothing ever points to Dragons being sentient. And what do you mean "innecesarily"? They were afraid it might eat them!
- Fan Theory here: Apparation next to a creature that magical(that resists most spells) might not work or be hazardous- taking a chunk out of the dragon by accident seems like the 'best' case scenario to me. Also the dragon has had a pretty terrible life of slavery already, having a chunk taken out of it would be just overkill.
- Dragons don't resist spells. In Go F in the first task they blind the dragon with magic.
- It's stated in the same book (Goblet of Fire) that dragons are highly resistant to magic, with their eyes being the exception, their one serious weak point. Hitting the dragon's eyes with a Conjunctivitis Curse was going to be Sirius's solution for Harry to get past his in the First Task.
- The whole Potter-assassination scene bugs the hell out of me for two reasons.
- First the major one. Why would the Potters leave their wands apart? No, I don't care how "safe" or "relaxed" they felt - I dare you to find at least one moment in all the seven books, when anybody, no matter how safe or relaxed they were, didn't have their wand on them. You won't. And there's a good reason for that, namely the fact that the wizards use their wands all the time and for everything. Dick jokes aside, the wands are practically extensions to their bodies.
- Regarding the wands, wasn't it stated that James had been playing with Harry just before the attack. Given that wands are valuable, (perhaps invaluable), potentially dangerous, and breakable, maybe he thought it wouldn't be such a good idea to have his wand within reach of a baby.
- Indeed, he was. In fact, as witnessed by V, James was "making puffs of colored smoke with his wand", which rather clashes with your theory.
- So maybe the Potters' way of indicating "Playtime's over" to baby Harry was to let him watch as they set their wands aside? Many parents of young kids use little rituals — close the storybook, flip on the nightlight, shut the toy chest — to visually reinforce that it's time for their toddler to go to sleep.
- Ok, makes sense. But he doesn't just set it aside - he throws it on the coach. Wouldn't simply tucking into the pocket/holster achieve the same effect?
- Now the humongous one. James yells to Lily: "Take Harry and run". Ok, he's staying behind to cover their escape, as befits a man, good for him, I mean it. Except that, where's she supposed to run? No, that's not a rethorical question, I honestly want to know what the contingency plan was. You know, like a portable time-independant portkey (we know they exist, Crouch used one), or a Vanishing cabinet (it is mentioned, that they were popular during the First War) with a self-destruct mechanism, or a detachable room that lifts off and flies away, while the rest of the house explodes, or litrally anything that doesn't leave them locked insinde their own house to be slaughtered like cattle. Seriously, NOTHING?!!! These allegedly brilliant wizards didn't prepare ANY emergency escape route? How did they even manage to "thrice defy him" when they seem to be completely unconcerned with their own survival?
- We don't necessarily know that there weren't any of those safety measures you stated. Maybe Voldy was blocking the way, or he was in the nursery too fast for Lily to do anything other than shield her son (like grabbing the broom under the dresser or whatever). They didn't really have a reason to be very uptight about as of the minute safety - nothing had attacked so far, they were under the very secure fidelus curse and there's no way their friend Peter would betray them. As for them not having their wands on them...no idea. People have misplaced/temporarily forgotten more important things. Maybe it's the magical equivalent of forgetting to put your watch on?
- We saw the whole scene from V's POV, there was no indication that he had to overcome or block anything, and Lily had enough time to barricade the door. So, no. As for the rest, I said it and I'll repeat it: when you plan contingency measures, you do not placate yourself - you expand from the worst possible scenario, where all conventional means of protection have failed like, in our case, where their friend Pettegrew was captured and tortured horribly into revealing the secret. The wands - no, it's rather the equivalent of forgetting to load your gun before going into battle. It wouldn't bug me so much, if it was about ordinary people, but potters were supposed to be brilliant and relatively battle-hardened, yet still they commit such unfathomably stupid blunders.
- They were smart and capable, but they were also twenty-one-year-olds, so I think it's something of a stretch to call them "battle-hardened." In any event, though, my guess is that many witches and wizards do put down their wands for a few minutes every once in a while, while in the comfort of their own homes; the proper equivalent is forgetting to load the shotgun one keeps next to one's bed in case of burglars, not before going out into battle. One can't stay 100%-alert, 100% of the time - Voldemort caught them at a vulnerable moment and capitalized on it. Were they somewhat foolish for not enabling themselves a second's-notice escape path? Probably. But not so much that it seems out-of-character for what they had done already (refusing Albus as Secret-Keeper, for example).
- Just to expand on this- 21 year olds *with a 1 year old*. I'm going to assume noone posting on here has yet experienced what life is like with a teething baby? This may not be the Potters having an uncharaciteristc epic fail. Sleep deprivation is a real and traumatic thing that leads to visual and audio issues, incomplete thoughts and lack of concentration beyond standard. Its one of the few things that Hollywood gets right (Think everything being washed out color in The Machinist)
- Indeed I haven't, so I can only trust your word. Does it really degrade people towards Too Dumb to Live level?
- Calling them relatively battle-hardened owned mostly to the fact that despite their young age they'd "defied Vodlemort thrice". Thrice. Don't you think that such an outstanding achievement requires quite a bit more awareness than that of a common wizard? Secondly, the shotgun-in-the-house analogy doesn't fly well with me, because shotguns are supposed to be kept unloaded and it would be indeed weird for somebody to drag one around their house all the time (much less weird, of course, if they are being hunted). But wands? They are not weapons, as much as, well, not exactly prosthetic limbs, but close. Yes, maybe wizards do put them away sometimes, although I can't conceive why would they, but for all the seven books we haven't seen a single time they do. Thus the coincedence strikes me as contrived. Now if V'd somehow influenced them to drop their guard, that would've been cool, but as it is, it's just a poorly executed Diabolus ex Machina. Finally, refusing DD as a Secret-Keeper was dumb, no doubt, but it could have at least some possible justifications: they didn't feel all that close to him, James wanted to cheer up Sirius after his break up with his family, by showing his deep trust and whatnot. But failing to enchant some suitable trinket, say, a bracelet that you can wear all the time, into a portkey activated when you tear it apart? What possible justification could be for that?
- You graduate Hogwarts at age 18. They're 21. Therefore, they have been members of the first Order of the Phoenix for at least three years, at the height of the First Wizarding War. Anyone with three years of active combat service in wartime is damn well "battle-hardened" and should act like it. In the real world we expect 21-year-old servicemembers to be able to lead squads (or if they're officers, platoons), fly planes, drive tanks, and serve in special operations units. Arguing from a standpoint of 'how competent can you expect a 21-year-old to be?' is not sound, because if they've got three-plus years in, the answer is 'we expect them to be professionally competent'.
- Another thing is, I don't recall that you must have a wand in order to apparate and from V's recollection of the events he didn't bother to place any anti-apparition curses on the house. So...?
- You must have a wand in order to Apparate.
- Let's try to picture this from the Potters' perspective: James has just handed baby Harry over to Lily for bedtime when the front door gets Alohamoraed open and Voldy comes walking in. Realizing he left his wand on the table, he tells Lily to get out of there while he charges Voldy. Giving that James is one of the best in the Order, and is known to have an appreciation for Muggle things, he probably knows a bit about Good Old Fisticuffs and hopes to, at the least, buy Lily the time to escape and, and the best, surprise/stun Voldy long enough to grab his own wand and fight back. However, he gets A Kd in the hallway before he can do this. Lily likely had her wand on her but, having already started up the stairs and in the process of carrying their only child, likely went up them out of panic (completely forgetting that they likely had a back door), especially with the green light shining from downstairs. She'd probably planned to hide Harry in the nursery and fight back herself, but then Voldy gave her the ultimatum: "Move out of the way, let me kill the boy, and I'll spare your life." This triggered her Mama Wolf reflex and she instead went down fighting.
- Indeed, let's shall. Where does it say, BTW, that James had any special appreciation for Non-Wiz things? Regardless, the question still stands. Where was Lilly supposed to run, according to James? Back door? I doubt you could escape even a regular burglar that simply, yet alone the frigging Voldemort. And who's to say he hadn't got the house surrounded? Also, Lily was no match for V and should've understood it. Escape was the only solution. So where was the emergency Portkey or whatever and lacking that what prevented her from apparating away?
- OP of the above theory: I misremembered Sirius's appreciation for Muggle stuff, but James was shown joyriding with him in a short story, so I likely cast him with the same trait. As for James telling Lily to run, he might have indeed meant apparating or grabbing a portkey. Lily, holding a baby in her hands and watching her husband's body falling to the floor, could have simply had a basic human reaction and panicked, leading her to run upstairs to her death. Hell, it could have even been that curse that Voldy put on the Defense Against the Dark Arts position acting up to ensure that Harry was there to get 6 teachers removed from their positions.
- What does it matter that she ran upstairs? Obiously an emergency portkey should be, well, portable, something you can carry around at all times, like a piece of jewelry. And how being upstairs would impede apparation? And don't tell me she didn't have time - she had time to barricade the door. And don't tell me she was too panicking either - she'd escaped V thrice by that moment. Baby or not, James killed or not - there's no way she wasn't prepared for this.
- Portkeys are shown to come in two varieties in the Harry Potter verse: those that transport you at a certain time (i.e. the one that took everyone to the World Cup), and those that transport you when touched (i.e. the Goblet of Fire). Neither of those is designed to be portable for emergency use. If they had a portkey, and I agree that it would be the basest of stupidity for them not to, then Lily didn't get to it in time. Hell, maybe it was hidden in Harry's room and she couldn't remember which of his teddy bears it was. And in the books it specifies that Apparation is something that many wizards and witches choose not to learn, as they prefer other methods of travel like Floo Powder and brooms over the dangers involved in Apparation. Maybe Lily simply never learned how. As for not panicking? There's a huge difference between confronting your enemy on a battlefield and having him blast open your front door and smile at your baby while standing on your husband's still-warm corpse. Panic is a completely understandable reaction to that.
- Why not? Make a touch-portkey out of something small, like a coin, and then put it, say, inside a locket. If it cannot touch anything, suspend it in mid air. That is, if you cannot make a Portkey activated by an additional manipulation, like twisting or squezzing it and why not? Putting a Portkey in Harry's room (or rather every room) is also a good idea, but obviously it had to be something distinct and something you cannot grab by mistake or miss. I don't remember where it says that many wizards chose not to learn Apparition - adults apparate all the time and all the kids took the lessons in HBP, and why wouldn't they? Despite all dangers it is an infinitely more convinient way to travel, especially for an emergency. I absolutely refuse to believe that a member of the freaking Order of Phoenix wouldn't master such an essential skill. Also, the escape routes are not limited to Apparition and Portkeys. There were also Vanishing cabinets. (you cannot confuse that for a teddy bear, can you), brooms and whatnot. And again, her initial panic is understandable, but after she runs up, she has enough time and sense to start barricading the door, meaning she ran through her options and there were none. And she was protecting her baby, shouldn't her Mama Bear instincts have trumpled the panic?
- My statements about the Portkey were based entirely on what was in the books, with no further theorizing on my part (although I do like your ideas, if they are doable). As for why Lily wouldn't learn Apparition: during the Apparition lessons in HBP, it is said that there are many wizards and witches who never learn because of the dangers (the chance of appearing in the wrong place i.e. inside of a wall, the ever-present chance of splinching off some vital body part, etc) and also because other methods are just plain safer, albiet slower or more prone to interception. The Vanishing Cabinet is also a good idea, but its not something I'd put in my toddler's room. Actually, I'd have probably left that down in the living room which was, unfortunately, on the other side of Voldy. As for her Mama Bear instincts, she did keep herself (unarmed, apparently) firmly planted between her baby and the most evil wizard to ever live and, without batting an eye, offered to trade her life for her son's.
- So are mine. What in the books made you thing you cannot make a small Portkey and put in a protective shell (coin in a locket)? Apparition: for regular wizards fine, but she was brilliant and a member of a paramilitary anti-terrorist organization. A chance to escape an ambush or promptly deploy to the field kinda trumples the possible dangers in my mind. Besides, the only people who ever faced those dangers were Ron (who's an idiot) and that Slytherin guy, who apparated ''inside Hogwarts''. Hell, Fred and George apparate all around all around the Burrow, and Molly only chastices them, because they abuse it. The Vanishing Cabinet: that is exactly why placing it in the living room is a bad idea - during an attack it will be the first thing to fall into enemy hands or at least will be under fire, whereas the second floor is the obvious retreat route, plus this is where the baby will most likely be when they are not together. Instincts: yeah, that's kinda my point. She wasn't panicking - she was desperate. Meaning she had no options. Which is what bugs me.
- As I said, my theories about the Portkey were based on what was shown in the books, not what could be inferred about them. Besides, having reread the last book, it is said that Portkeys are monitored by the Ministry, which was known to have Death Eater's working undercover within its ranks during the war. Given that the house was protected by the Fidelius Charm, a Portkey was probably thought to be, at best, unneeded and at worst, a method of locating them. As for the lack of danger in Apparition, remember that it was Hermione (considered the brightest and most talented witch of her generation) that almost splinched Ron's arm off during their escape from the Ministry. Side-Along Apparition is considered the most dangerous form of wizard travel under normal circumstances, and it gets worse when you are emotionally compromised. Even if she would have been fine, baby Harry could have arrived minus a limb or two. Come to think of it, we never see anyone Apparate or use a Portkey within the confines of the Fidelius Charm. Perhaps that's a side-effect of the charm: it blocks unauthorized entry/exit by making you enter/exit through a certain spot each time. Keep in mind that when the Fidelius was on Grimmauld Place, you had to materialize on the front step and come in through the door, and when the Burrow was protected everyone kept popping up in the corn fields.
- Well, they do carry Portkeys around, so they clearly don't need to be stationary. I just don't see how what I say contradicts what was shown in the books. But even with zero inference, fine, where were the stationary Portkeys? "Ministery monitors Portkeys" contradicts the events in Goblet of Fire, when Krauch created a Portkey, and nobody was aware of the act or at least of the true destination, depending on the interpretation. Why they suddenly do in DH? Who *cough*lazyandcontrivedplotdevice*cough* knows? Apparition may be dangerous, but even loosing a limb or two is better then dying, don't you think? Barring that there were still Vanishing Cabinets. Fidelius interfering with escape methods is a good point, but guess what, the Charm was broken!
- No, the charm was not broken! Peter, as the Secret Keeper, is empowered to let others know what the secret is. He let Voldy know. Thus, the Charm was still on the house when Voldy arrived. Hell, it was still in effect in Deathly Hallows, since the Secret Keeper was still alive. As for the contradiction in monitoring Portkeys, Crouch made an authorized Portkey with an unauthorized stop. Dumbledore was told off by Fudge at the Ministry for creating an unauthorized Portkey, and that was why they couldn't use a Portkey to escape during the Battle over Little Whinging (because the Death Eaters had spies in the Ministry that would be watching for a Portkey at that address, as opposed to the ones that were used after the battle which were likely registered to the homeowners there). Also, the only Portkeys that are picked up without teleporting people around are either expended Portkeys (like the stack of used ones at the World Cup), or they are timed Portkeys that haven't hit their scheduled mark yet (like the one at the Tonks house after Little Whinging). Since the Fidelius was still in place, the only options for escape in a hurry would be to use a broom, a Vanishing Cabinet, or get outside the limits of the Charm. A broom would make them sitting ducks, and they wouldn't have planned on having the time to escape the Charm's field. As for the Cabinet, I raise this question: how long had the Potters been living under the Charm? Sirius implies that Peter betrayed them within 48 hours of being made Secret Keeper. It's likely that the Potters never needed a Cabinet before (being as they were no doubt skilled in Apparition) and, once the Charm was put in place, were probably waiting for one to be delivered in the event that Sirius was forced via torture to reveal who the Secret Keeper really was. No one expected a betrayal of the magnitude that was Peter's backstab, so they were unprepared for anything to happen that quickly.
- Harry summons the portkeified Goblet that wasn't either expired or timed. "An authorized Portkey with an unauthorized stop" equals an unathorised Portkey. Fudge didn't chastize DD as much as weekly protested when he made an unathorised Portkey in fron of his very eyes. And there's one more mean of escape - House Elves! Unbound by the general rules, loyal, self-sufficient, capable of Apparating everywhere. THAT is whom they should've had.
- (This one was sparked by the movie, but applies to book and movie equally): Why the screaming blue hell didn't Dumbledore just have his hand amputated? Snape says the curse was spreading from the original infection, but mentions nothing about it metastasizing like a cancer. Cut the damn hand off and live, you doddering old coot!
- Do you really think that a curse of such magnitude could be stopped by something as mundane as a knife? Exactly how Snape managed to "contain" the damage in one hand is unclear, but the magicks required were probably extremely complex, meaning that this would have been an incredibly risky move on Dumbledore's part. For all we know, lopping off the hand could have "released" the curse and allowed it to spread through his entire body, killing him almost instantly.
- You know, what would've solved this Headscratcher nicely? Addressing it in the fraking book. You know, like in two lines of dialogue. Snape: "I've managed to contain the curse in one hand, but eventually it will spread. I say we cut it off now. I have just the spell for that!" DD: "Wait, Severus. We should first make sure it won't release it to ravage through my body instantly." One magical test later, Snape: "Oh shit, it totally will." You see? No room for ungrounded assumptions, confusion or terrible *cough*lousywriting*cough* suspicions.
- Snape knows better than to suggest something like that because it would never work.
- So, Only thing that can fight off the Dementors is a patronus. And, we learn in this book, that none of the Death Eaters (And, I suppose, not even Voldemort Himself) can conjure one. So, how the FUCK is it a good idea to have servants you can't do ANYTHING against in case they decide to rebel and/or turn against you?
- That's why they are not servants - they are allies. Their goals merely agree with V's ones (spread misery and death among Muggles), so they work tohether. And why would they turn on Death Eaters? D Es destroy those who can cast Patronuses, thus ensuring the free reign of Dementors. Besides, I don't remember anything actually forbidding D Es to cast Patronuses. Hell, Umbridge managed to cast one, so I guess evil happy thoughts work too.
- I remember reading that Snape was the only Death Eater to be able to cast one, I think Word of God stated that. So, why would they ally with potentially undefeatable foe who would have no qualms to turn on you after anyone capable of harming them were out of the picture?
- First, this is the same Word that stated, that "the wonderful and terrible power of heart" locked inside the Department of Mysteries was in fact a fountain of rape drug. I'd take everything that woman said with a bi-ig grain of salt. Again, if Umbridge managed it, I don't see why others couldn't. Second, what was their choice really? Dementors were already there, they didn't even need to be freed or summoned from hell or whatever. The options were either being their allies or their dessert. Also, if D Es weren't complete idiots, I guess they'd make sure they had some Patronus-wielders left to protect them. Besides, maybe V personally wasn't afraid of Dementors, having neither happy memories nor soul (almost) for them to suck, and, as was duly noted elsewhere, Voldemort doesn't give a shit about anything not called Voldemort.
- According to word of god if a Dark Wizard attempted to use a Patronus charm they'd accidentally summon a swarm of maggots that would devour them. So Umbridge being able to use it might indicate a TINY speck of goodness in her.
- Riiiiiiiiiight. Let me remind that at that moment she was preceeding over a mock trial, tormenting innocent people, lying through her teeth all the time, threatening them with fate worse then death (or maybe even submitting some of them to it) and enjoing every moment of it. "Goodness" doesn't come in the same galaxy with her. And... seriously? Devouring maggots as a side effect of a Light spell? Thine God is trully mad, methinks.
- It could be that Avada Cadavra can kill dementors, just like it kills everything else that's not love-shielded or a phoenix. Lupin does say that the Patronus is the only defense against them, but Avada is an entirely offensive spell. (And not one he'd resort to teaching Harry, obviously.)
- A brief tangent: Could Voldemort be harmed by a Patronus? His soul is so fragmented and his mind so devoid of happiness and love that I would not have been surprised in the least if Harry had used a Patronus Charm to fight Voldemort. It would even fit in with the prophecy; he would have power that the Dark Lord knows not. This is said to be love, but even then, Harry's most powerful Patronuses (Patronii?) are when he's thinking about how happy the people he cares about make him. It stands to reason that a Patronus would have been able to mess Voldy up, if only a little. (I would not go so far as to think my fanboy theory would actually kill Voldemort, just hurt.)
- A Patronus merely holds off and chases Dementors because it has no misery for them to feed off of, only hope. Voldemort doesn't feed off of emotion, therefore a Patronus to him would have done little more than obscure his vision for a bit.
Killing Voldemort without killing horcruxes
- This kind of sounds like a stupid question, but could Voldemort be killed without all of the Horcruxes being killed? I get the impression that Voldemort, in his original body, is sort of a Horcrux himself. What would have happened if Dumbledore had managed to AK Voldie? Because if it meant that, well, there would still be bits of his soul lying around to take care of- who cares? They're practically dormant- wouldn't it have made sense to kill the big bad first and then go after the objects? What if Harry had just killed off Voldemort and the snake without trying to sacrifice himself? The connection between them would essentially be broken anyway, so while a bit of Voldemort may still be inside him, his scar wouldn't have to hurt anymore.
- Either the soul fragments were like lives in a video game (if somehow they killed Voldemort, a horcrux would become a normal object again and the soul piece would go to Voldemort's body) or as long as there is one horcrux intact, Voldemort's body would go as if nothing had happened to it.
- Well, I guess you don't quite understand what horcruxes are for: as long as a horcrux exists, the user doesn't die. That's the sole purpose of a it. That's why Voldemort didn't die the night he tried to kill Harry. So, as long as a horcrux remains, he won't die. And Harry was a horcrux, if he wouldn't die, Voldemort wouldn't either. BUT, there is one thing - when Voldie was hit wis his own Avada Kedavra, he was reduced to a weak spirtish form, unable to do anything but to stick to creatures' heads. So, if he would be hit with AK again, same thing would happen. But this time his servants would help him sooner. And, besides, without Voldemort's body with Harry's blood in it, Harry would have no way back from the "King-Kross Station", he'd be killed for real.
- Why did Dumbledore never tell Harry that he would eventually have to sacrifice himself? Yes, I don't think anybody'd respond too well to "you're going to die, and you're going to let it happen", but for God's sake, Harry understands pretty early on that there's a big chance he won't make it through to the end anyway. Not to mention the fact that Dumbledore had been fairly damn sure that Harry would live through it. Couldn't he have saved the kid a little agony? He could have even given him the snitch and told him what to say when the time came- garnered knowledge of the Deathly Hallows notwithstanding, Harry wouldn't have had to've known there was the Resurrection Stone inside it.
- It's probably linked to Dumbledore's explanation to why he waited so long to tell Harry about the prophecy: He really didn't want to tell a kid that he was marked for death, and so he kept putting it off, and putting it off, wanting to spare Harry the burden of that knowledge for as long as he could... Dumbledore admits himself that this was wrong of him to do, and that he probably underestimated Harry's ability to take such information. Also... From what I can see, Dumbledore wasn't fairly damn sure Harry would live through it. Seems more to me that he was setting up a rather elaborate Batman Gambit, born out of desperation and hope that maybe, if everything worked, Harry would be able to survive the Killing Curse a second time. But a big criteria for Harry to survive in the first place was that he'd be willing to sacrifice himself; if he'd known he'd survive, he wouldn't have.
- Is this really a question? How could you even suggest that someone tell a young child that he'll have to die someday, but you don't know exactly when, nor would he even understand the circumstances in which he must die until later? One of the things that sets Harry apart from Voldemort is his love - by growing up unaware of his fate, he grew up unafraid of it, unafraid of making friends and allies, and was able to strike a strong and lasting bond with each one of them, so that when the right time came, and he did find out, he was able to face death with dignity, with the knowledge that by doing so, he was working to protect so many of the people he'd grown to care about through his years at Hogwarts, and, through it all, with the hope that he would be with his mother and father again when it was over.
- I'm confused as to exactly how Yaxley would have been able to tell other Death Eaters how to get into Grimmauld Place. Ok, As far as I can tell, the boundary of the Fidelius Charm is only on the interior of the house. I assume this because the Trio cannot Apparate from/to the interior of Grimmauld Place. They have to Apparate to/from the front step, under the Cloak. Therefore, when they Disapparated from the Ministry to Grimmauld Place, how were they able to take Yaxley 'past the boundaries of the Fidelius Charm?' In every other instance they Apparate onto the front steps. And if the Fidelius Charm extends to the front steps, why would they need the Cloak when standing on it?
- Maybe he wouldn't be able to let the other death eaters inside, but just the fact that their location was compromised was enough risk: the death eater would be outside the house 24/7, waiting for them to go out for whatever reason. Or they would try to enter via other means, like House elf transportation.
- But the Death Eaters already knew where the house was. They'd been hovering outside 24/7 for weeks, as far as I recall.
- The G Olden Trio knew that Death Eaters were sitting on the bench, keeping a vigil for anyone who comes out of the Fidelius Charm's boudaries and thus revealing it's location.. All Yaxley has to do is run out the front door and *poof* the enemy knows exactly how to get inside.
- The Order communicates through Patronus. Did Snape never use this method of communication? Otherwise, it would be tricky to explain why his Patronus is the same as Lily's, unless no one in the order could put two and two together.
- Word of God clarified soon after Book 7's release that Snape indeed never utilized the Patronus-communication trick, instead relying on less reliable but more circumspect methods of keeping in contact with the Order. Since he couldn't be expected to be sending out a whole lot of Patronuses while spying amongst the Death Eaters, this wouldn't have been too difficult for him to justify.
- Percy's apology struck a nerve. I'm not the biggest Percy fan around, but the reader was never given any explicit insight into Percy's side. The side the reader did get was: Percy was happy about a promotion, his father wasn't happy, words were exchanged, and then, Percy did some admittedly jerkass things. Trying to look at things from Percy's POV, however, there are some facts that are never dwelt on. Percy didn't know Harry on a deeply personal level (a fact Harry acknowledges), two of Percy's siblings and his girlfriend were put in danger under Dumbledore's watch, and another student died under Dumbledore's watch. Perhaps Arthur was gentle, at first, in trying to point out that the promotion wasn't what Percy thought it was, but if Arthur jumped on Percy for showing happiness at his promotion, demonising that happy pride and making it clear he thought Percy was being arrogant and a fool when it's been made clear to everyone that Percy is both intelligent and an extremely hard worker, Percy's decision to more-or-less cut ties is much more sympathetic. The thing is, though, Percy isn't given his side of the story, whereas, all the other main unpleasant characters are: Snape, Voldemort, etc.; the good characters, with the sort of exception of Molly, and many readers alike automatically assume Percy was 100% in the wrong, and then, suddenly, he appears, verbally cuts himself down, and he's redeemed, with no implication that perhaps he, too, is owed an apology. I wasn't shown the argument or made privy to Percy's feelings and thoughts, but he went from a three dimensional character to essentially a villain Butt Monkey who was made to acknowledge the righteousness of the heroes at the end.
- Be careful, for this path leads to darkness. Next you'll find yourself arguing, that, maybe, just maybe, Dursleys actually had some reasons to dislike or even be afraid of the presence of Saint Potter in their domain, who, for all they knew (i.e. jack squat, since DD never bothered to explain anything or even deign to appear in person), could very much blow up their home one day or do something else whereupon none of their neighbours would ever speak to them again. And that is HERESY.
- ^That^ also, Harry wouldn't have been around for that, and while JK could have added some lines of explanation, it would have gone against how the family was dealing with it. It was still a fresh wound that some were doing their best to not deal with (anger or guilt for realizing mistakes of assumption), or were casually joking about to mask the anger (the younger ones who didn't have enough life experience to really get it). It would have been quite awkward to randomly bring up, and Harry didnt care enough about percy to persue it. Plus, he was abused growing up, his experience with most Weasleys was his good family except for Percy who he saw as pompous git due to interactions at school and general comments. So it would make sense to him to believe the little bit he had heard at more or less face value. And like the Dursley situation, it is all RIGHT THERE. A younger kid wont get it, and it is subtle enough to not derail form the story (which is centered on harry's character except for the opening of book 4). But, it is there to see. I saw it pretty quickly (second readthrough the series?), but I was going through an oddly similar circumstance (just not as severe, obviously). Its a bit of Fridge Logic really. Those without much familial strife or even smaller families could easily assue Percy was an asshat, those with bigger families or some family shame/secrets would see it in a "Hey now, even Author has to have had a moment." Personally, it makes sense that Author would freak on Percy more than the others because Percy was so smart,and should have seen the truth.
Death Eaters at wedding
- Okay, either I'm being dumb here, or there is a pretty big plot hole, but how did the Death Eaters manage to get to the wedding? Wasn't the Burrow under a zillion protection and concealment charms?
- They'd seized the Ministery by that point, and thus gained access to that powerful ward-breaking something of plot convenience the Ministery apparently had in stock.
Timeline near the end
- The day the trio escape from Gringotts is the same day they Neville takes them to the Room of Requirement. However, on the trip through the passage there, Neville mentions that he's heard about the dragon escape, and specifically mentions that Terry Boot was told off in the Great Hall for yelling about the escape. However, firstly, Neville shouldn't have known about the escape, as it happened at most a few hours before the trio meet him. Secondly, even if Aberforth had got the Evening Prophet or something and told Neville about the escape, by then Terry would have been living in the room of requirement, and considering the need for the passage to the Hog's Head they obviously weren't eating in the Great Hall anymore.
- "...by then Terry would have been living in the room of requirement..." - not necessarily. It stands to reason that some of the rebels would keep low profile so as to remain with the main crowd and provide intel to the "hard core". Apparently, such great knews warranted blowing his cover. Or maybe Terry didn't have anything to do with the resistance at all and just decided to announce the news to everyone.
- Snape does all in his power during the 6 books to expel Harry from school. Fine, he hated him because of his father etc. But in the 7th book we learn, that he knew from the beginning that Harry was essential in defeating Voldemort and thus needed to remain in school. So, if he worked for the plan, why in hell did he try to expel him?
- Funny thing is, can you name a single occasion, when Snape actually does something to that end? I mean, actively, like framing Harry or manipulating him to break rules? He doesn't. Oh, sure, he's always there to gloat when the Scarhead screws up (which happens with the rough frequency of all the freaking time) and threaten him with expulsion, and take away points, and give detentions, but that's pretty much it. And he can do it, precisely because he knows that Harry will never be expelled. As for why he does it, well, somebody has to keep the kid on his toes.
- Why, exactly, does Snape need to keep Harry on his toes? Between the Dursleys' abuse, the fact that someone tries to kill him every year and there's an evil wizard out to kill him, Snape's antics seem a little petty.
- Because the kid is reckless, shortsighted, and, honestly speaking, pretty dumb, and all DD does is condone that kind of behavior. So Snape, pointless as it may be, keeps reminding him that he is not in fact above the common rules, so that kid exercises at least some caution in shoving his head in the next meat-grinder he can find. Because hey, guess who ends up having to save his hide half the time? Sure, he could be doing it more efficiently, if his hatred to Marauders didn't keep getting in the way.
- Harry's not dumb at all. He's a little lazy, yes, but he's proven time and again that he's clever when he puts his mind to it. He's also impatient and reckless, but he is a teenager. All teenagers are like that. They grow out of it. If Snape wants to be an effective teacher, it would make more sense to use patience and common sense rather than bulling tactics.
- Ain't he then? I beg to disagree. Let's not get into each particular case herenote — they were all raised on the respective pages, few of them could be even somewhat justified, but it doesn't change the fact that the kid does AN AWFUL LOT of stupid shit, ever stupider and more destructive by the year (so much for "grow out of it"), as for being particularly clever or cunning...care to give an example, because I honestly cannot recall anything. And I can't help but blame DD for condoning and forgiving this irresponsible behavior (and Rowling, of course, for using this cheap device all the time to create drama) for the sake of indoctrinating the kid into being "his man through and through", which requires tons of positive stimula. Of course, even DD understands, that total impunity would kill the kid even more assuredly than V could, but he cannot get his own hands dirty, so the thankless job of being the negative stimula falls unto Severus (you don't seriously think DD couldn't restrain Snape, had he wanted to?), who a) is a horrible pedagogue (no argue here, he is), b) doesn't like the kid (or rather everything he represents) personally, and c) has to keep himself in Malfoy's good looks to remain DD's link to the udnerworld and thus cannot show affection to the kid even he wanted. Hence the heavy-handed tactics.
- One at a time. He was eleven years old during the incident with the dragon. Not only that, he was an eleven year old who came from an abusive household. Snape had already proven to be untrustworthy. He hadn't even met Dumbledore yet and he had only met McGonagall a handful of times. Hagrid was the one who rescued him from the Dursleys. He was trying to keep Hagrid out of trouble. Yes, the responsible thing would be to tell an adult, but Harry hasn't had many trustworthy ones in his life and, again, he was a child. He shouldn't be expected to act like adult. I admit, the stunt with the car was stupid. One of Harry's character flaws is recklessness, but that is still no excuse for Snape to be a bully. And why would Harry admit to hearing voices that no on else could hear? There was no logical reason at the time to believe that there was a giant sn\nake in the pipes. Harry didn't tell anyone because he was afraid he was losing his mind. Anyone else would of done the same. Again, there was no reason at the time to believe the diary was that dangerous. Harry thought Riddle was misinformed about Hargrid being the killer. Ginny was the one who stole it back. I've mentioned this before, but teenagers aren't known for their common sense. If Harry had a few lapse in judgement, like the broom Sirius sent, it isn't anything to condemn him for. Snape does bear a lot of the blame for what happened in the shack for his inability to think clearly. He's the teacher, after all. The same goes for the pensive incident and training Harry in mental defenses. There was no excuse for such heavy-handed tactics.
- *Sigh*Which is why I asked not to go into every particular case, but still funny how your excuses stopped short before the last and the most heinous acts of idiocy which, accidentally, were all committed by the ostensibly more experienced and "grown out of it" Harry. I rest my case. And I'm not "condemning" him for being stupid, at least not at first, I'm stating the obvious that a) he is, b) DD condones his stupidity, c) Snapes has to play the bad cop to keep him from going completely out of line. Sure, he's bad at it, but it was DD's decision to put him there.
Living Horcrux dying
- OK, so the only way to destroy a Horcrux is to render it "beyond magical repair". Death counts as "beyond magical repair". So, what happens if a living Horcrux (e.g. Nagini, Harry) dies a natural death? Does the Horcrux inside them count as destroyed?
- Most likely, their corpse would just continue to serve as a Horcrux. Just because their own soul left their body doesn't mean the Horcrux-creator's would; a dead body is still an object, after all. Presumably, said corpse would then be as immune to "conventional" destruction as the Locket or the Diary.
- Or becoming a Horcrux makes them immortal except for things that can destroy Horcruxes, like Gryffindor's sword after it absorbed basilisk venom, if they are a proper Horcrux like Nagini. Harry wasn't a real Horcrux, merely an unintended container of part of Voldemort's soul. Without the rituals that go into Horcrux creation, he never had the invulnerabilities of one. In his case, simple death would probably destroy the piece of Voldemort's soul in him, as the Avada Kedavra curse, which is never mentioned as a means of Horcrux destruction, did.
- In the Ministry, there is a statue of a wizard and a witch on thrones made of muggles. How could they tell they were muggles since muggles and wizards look very much alike?
- Muggle clothing. Except in the movies, in the books wizards don't dress like muggles.
- The same way that you can tell that a fat, long-nosed person in Nazi propaganda is supposed to be a Jew. They were highly stereotypical and overexaggerated depictions of muggles, not true-to-life sculptures.
Uncreative Death Eaters
- Is it just me, or are the death eaters terribly uncreative? I'm not just talking about the lack of guns, as is the usual complaint, but even on the magical side, they seem really, really unprepared. Every single battle tactic pretty consists of them charging in wands blazing and figuring out what to do during the battle itself. They've apparently never heard of buffing up before battle, something muggles managed to figure out with only a few years of computer games. In addition, we know that magic items exist in this series, but they are very rarely used. We know the death eaters are capable of raising inferi, but they never seem to use them during battle. There are so many fun uses for magic given in the series itself, but they never use any of it.
- While some of them have no such excuse, many of the Death Eaters are depicted more as brutish thugs than brilliant masterminds. It wouldn't surprise me if many of them were incapable of casting even a simple Shield Charm, like all those Ministry employees who ordered Fred and George's hats. So they stick with what they know - which is running forward and shooting Avada Kedavra.
- Perhaps V Oldemort knows enough about Muggle culture to understand the power of a good old fashioned Zerg Rush.
Rita Skeeter and Veritaserum
- In her book, Rita Skeeter writes that "...Bathilda [was] well worth the effort I put into procuring Veritaserum..." When Snape introduces Veritaserum in the Goblet of Fire, he mentions that it's regulated by "very strict" guidelines. Rita Skeeter almost certainty gave Bathilda the potion without telling her. This is legal? If so, "very strict" guidelines allow people to drug each other for information? And if not, how does Rita get away with announcing it in a very popular book?
- New regime didn't give a shit about such things, especially if it went towards creating slander against DD.
- Possibly Veritaserum can be taken voluntarily by people who don't want others doubting their word. Not that Bathilda was necessarily mentally-competent enough to consent to such voluntary use, but Rita might've justified giving Veritaserum to her on those grounds, so far as her readers knew.
- The Trio infiltrates Gringots by using Polyjuice potion and throwing mind-controlling spells left and right. So Let Me Get This Straight. The Ministery can instantly detect when a spells has been cast at a random location miles away down to knowing what spell exactly it was, but they cannot detect when a freaking Unforgivable is being cast in their goddamn bank?! How is that possible?! And why is the anti-polyjuice ward located so deep in the vaults instead of at the reception?
- They're all of age (ie, 17). They're not being tracked anymore at this point. There's no indication they can detect Unforgivables (when cast by wizards of age), otherwise they'd kinda know some of their hotshots were being imperiused, right? And the goblins don't automatically assume every person who walks in their doors needs a bath with spell-breaking water, but once they suspect the person who just left for the vault is not who they claim to be, well then...
- Well, yeah, that's the point. They can monitor the whole country for all spells, if they want, but they cannot monitor one small location, which is their frigging bank, at least specifically for mind-control spells? This is madness (or rather contrived plot convinience)! "And the goblins don't automatically assume..." - again, why not? It's security - it's supposed to apply to everyone. "but once they suspect the person who just left for the vault is not who they claim to be, well then..." then what? They let them in anyway, rather then detain and verify their suspicions on the spot? Can you imagine some important non-wiz facility where they would only have the detectors halfway inside instead of at the entrance?
- They can't monitor "the whole country" for spells. They monitor for spells by attaching tracking bugs to individual wizards. Since none of the Trio were carrying any, they were not being monitored.
- So, what prevented the bank management from attaching those "bugs" to the employees so that they could monitor what spells are being used in the bank? And again, why was the polyjuice-removing waterfall so deep inside instead of at the entrance?
- OK, are you disputing the mechanics of how the Trace works? If so, note that my 'bugs' comment was not speculation; Mad-Eye explains it in the beginning of DH, at length. They're canon. Or are you just complaining that wizards (or goblins) don't make even remotely efficient use of their available tools? I'll 100% agree with that latter one.
- The latter, of course. Or rather, as in most other cases, I am honestly curious if there was some legitimate in-universe reason for them to act this way, that I don't see, other than every last character simply being a brain-dead idiot for the sake of the plot. Because, unlike some... other works of fiction, there's surprisingly little aknowledgement of the fact, which makes me wonder.
- The Trace may be a case of very old magic - something cast by the Ministry or its predecessors many centuries ago, which cannot easily be altered or removed because the original spell's parameters are lost to time. The Trio worry multiple times throughout the book whether Voldemort's regime might have figured out a way to extend the Trace past seventeen, but there is no evidence to suggest that such a thing is even possible.
- Meh, technicalities. Have a minor serve in the bank as a living spell detector. Also, no, they don't raise that point even once, and why should they? The ability to detect spells cast in some random location would in no way help the Ministery find them, since they cannot see who casts the spell.
- The bank is not controlled by the Ministry. It's owned and operated by goblins, who notoriously don't like wizards. Maybe the goblins don't want any ministry interference with their business? Many private businesses don't want governments interfering with how they run. Plus the enchantment breaking water was more of a extra security measure for the more "important" customer vaults. Kind of like how to get money out of a bank you don't have to pass to many checks, but to access a security deposit box you have to prove a lot more.
- So, they are more ok with thieves waltzing in and stealing their shit with mind spells they have absolutely no protection from? And to get money from the bank you do have to, at the very least, present an ID (which, accidentaly, they don't do at all). Which means nothing if you can shapeshift. Which means placing the waterfall anywhere but the entrance is stupid.
- These are goblins we're talking about here...Tricky folk. Remember what Griphook said would happen if anyone but one of them tried to get inside the vault where the Sorcerer's Stone was? Any alarms? Trapdoors, booby traps, or anything? Nope, you just get sucked inside and trapped there, with no way out but to hope that it's nearing the end of the ten-year gap in between vault checks. Seems perfectly reasonable to me if the goblins' mantra was: "You can go ahead and try to break into our bank. And maybe we'll let you in, but we'll make sure you don't get out afterwards." The only reason our three heroes were able to get in and back out again was because they had one of Bellatrix's hairs, an invisibility cloak that never fades and is immune to outside enchantments, two Gringotts goblins to get past the dragon, Hermione.
- Yes, that sadistic (oh, I'm sorry, "tricky") trap and the dragon would've served as nice deterrents, IF it wasn't that bloody simple to Imperio "one of them" and have him do literally all the job for the thieves. By the way, there's no reason why Q&V couldn't have pulled the same trick with the Stone either.
- It wouldn't have been as simple for Quirrell as it was for Harry and co., since the stone was in a very high-security vault that, evidently, only Dumbledore and Nicholas Flamel could get into. Unless Quirrell was able to find someone willing to Imperio every goblin in the room into letting him take the stone, whilst hoping that not a single goblin would find this suspicious, he would've had to have either gotten one of Dumbledore's or Flamel's hairs or Imperiused one of them to do the job, which I can't see happening. Whereas the goblins wouldn't have have figured anyone would be foolish enough to try and impersonate Bellatrix Lestrange, of all people, and go to so much trouble to break in when there was nothing of particular worth in her vault.
Snatchers trusting Malfoys
- When the snatchers snatch the Trio, they are reluctant to take them to the Ministry, so they don't get cheated out of their reward. And since they cannot call V directly, they decide to take the kids to the Malfoys who can. So Let Me Get This Straight. They are afraid to go to the Ministry, the one organization that has to keep at least a pretense of legitimacy, that has apparently hired them for this job and that will have tons of witnesses to their arrival and claim. And instead they are going to a secluded domain of V's disgraced second-in-command... ... ... What the hell did they think would prevent Malfoys from just killing/stunning them and taking all the honor to themselves, like, big shock, was exactly how it happened?! Evil may not comprehend Good, but you'd think it would at least comprehend another Evil, wouldn't it?
- They brought Harry to Malfoy Manor because they knew it was Voldemort's current base of operations and they thought he would be there for them to present Harry to him, having no knowledge of his search for the Elder Wand. Plus, the snatchers seem to be after some sort of concrete reward for bringing Harry to Voldemort - the Malfoys just want to get back into his good graces, following Lucius's failure at the Ministry and Draco's ineptitude at killing Dumbledore.
- Yes, excatly. This is why it's obvious they would want the credits for capturing Harry for themselves. As for the first, nope, that's not what Grayback says. He says that he cannot contact V due to the lack of Dark Mark (because of course V couldn't have possibly supplied them with another mean of communication), so they should bring them to Malfoys who have the marks and can contact V.
Trap at Godrick's Hollow
- Why would V set up a trap at Godrick's Hollow? As far as he knew, was there any reason for Harry to go there except for sentimental, that is to visit his parents' graves? And not only would thinking of that be extremely out of his uncaring, callous and fatricidal character, but even if he did, what are the odds that in six previous years Harry had never got a chance to do this (BTW: why hadn't he)?
- Because Harry never got the chance to go visit his parents' graves? And during the summer, he was stuck with the Dursleys? Do you honestly think they would have cared enough about Harry to say, "Hop in the car, boy. We'll find your parents graves and lay flowers for them. Dudders, dress in that nice outfit Mumsy gave you"? No. Voldy did that in the seventh book because he knew Harry was out in the wizarding world, knew that Harry would not pass up the chance to finally see where his parents were buried, thus set the trap.
- Who's talking about Dursleys? After the first year Harry never spent the whole summer with them. And hell, how long would it take anyway, a couple hours? Don't tell me he couldn't find a couple hours in all those years and ask someone to give him a lift. As usual, it's not about whether it could be done or not - it's about him never bothering to ask.
- "It's about him never bothering to ask."...Mm-hmm, I believe it. You're seriously undermining how unlikable and rude the Dursleys are. Of course they wouldn't have brought Harry to a wizarding community to visit his parents graves - why would they? They already desecrated their memory by saying they died in a car crash, not to mention, bringing Harry to Godric's Hollow might bring up some interesting questions, wouldn't it? "Hey, why does that war memorial change whenever I go near it?" "Hey, why do the statues sitting on that bench look suspiciously like my mum and dad?" "Hey, why is there a eulogy posted in front of the burnt-out remains of a house describing in detail how my parents were killed by an evil wizard in a way that matches not at all the cause of their deaths as you've always described it to me?"
- *Sigh* Y u no read my response? "Who's talking about Dursleys? After the first year Harry never spent the whole summer with them." As in, he spent significant parts of the summer, and the entire winter already in the wizarding community, among sympathetic people, like Weasleys, who would have no reason to deny him a visit to the Hollow. And V knows that. Meaning he would have no reason to think that Harry, being the (supposedly) good-hearted, loving person he is, had never bothered to ask his blood-traitor friends to take him there, and would suddenly decide to go there now, when he's on the run.
- ...Oh, I see. My deepest apologies for my rude-itude – the way you worded your response made it seem like you were still referring to the Dursleys. In any case, Harry knows how poor the Weasleys are, and may have felt bad asking them to visit his parents’ grave when they already had a handful of kids, not much money, and no car, after the second book. Also, when exactly did he find out his parents were buried in Godric’s Hollow? If it were in one of the later books, it might make more sense why he didn’t ask. (Also, Mr. Riddle may have figured Harry might've wanted to visit the village for other reasons, such as to visit Bathilda Bagshot.)
- Why would he figure that? V is unaware of Harry's quest until much later and other than that, is there any connection between Harry and Bathilda?
- Well, Harry suspected that Bathilda might've had the Sword of Gryffindor, so one of the reasons he'd suggested they go was to see if they could obtain it from her. And also, Voldemort still knows what love is; he just can't feel it, or understand why others feel it. He understands perfectly that Harry loves and misses his parents, and could conceivably foresee that he might want to visit their graves.
Trap at Gringotts
- Moreover, if V is that farsighted and good at anticipating his enemies' moves, why isn't there a trap in the Gringotts? After learning how much Bella freaked out over it in front of them (and surely he'd demand explanations for what happened from her) he wouldn't even need to realise the true nature of their quest to suspect that they might want to check the bank out. And yet, with days or weeks to prepare, they only put together some half-assed protection means.
- To be fair, the trio barely got out of Gringotts alive, and getting the cup informed Voldemort they were after the horcruxes. I would say it worked out pretty well.
- There's a difference between regular security (even if tightened) and a dedicated trap. This clearly was not the latter.
- Setting up a better dedicated trap in Gringotts would only draw suspicion to the Lestrange vault.
- Draw it from whom, exactly? Goblins?
- Because even Voldemort thinks twice about trying to do anything that would piss off the goblins that control the entire financial system of the wizarding world? Even an Evil Overlord needs a a bank account, and trying to pull any tricks against Gringotts is a good way to find yourself Knutless.
- Check the scene when he interrogates the goblin after the heist. That goblin is properly terrified of him, and then V murders him without a second thought. Also, why would setting a trap piss off the goblins? It is meant to prevent a heist, so if anything, goblins should sympathise.
- Is it just me, or does the whole second chapter make no freaking sense at all, from start to finish, on more levels than one?
- First. Why did Harry have to return to Dursleys? He knew the protection would dissolve in July, so he'd have to relocate anyway, he didn't do anything useful in all the time he spent there, he was fine in the Burrow and later at Grimmauld Place and even when he left for his quest, so what was the point in spending more time with people he didn't like and subjecting them to extra danger?
- Nevermind subjecting the Dursleys to extra danger, Mad-Eye and Hedwig would still be alive and George would still have his ear.
- Because the Death Eaters no-question could not get anywhere near Harry so long as he called the house on Privet Drive his home. They wanted to keep the best protection possible over him and for the longest time possible, which also allowed for them to spend more time casting protective enchamtents over other locations to take him to later.
- Oh, that's right. I mean they only had meager seventeen years to do that, no doubt that extra month was crucial.
- Second. V decides that they have to take Harry out before he's transferred to the new hideout, because even V wouldn't be able to reach him there. Uhm, what the hell does it matter? The kid is not some artefact that the Order can store in the hideout and use him there. To present any threat to V whatsoever, Harry would have to leave the hideout. Moreover, if the Order could arrange for a safe hideout without the Dursleys, why the hell did they not arrange for it twelve years ago and spared both the kid and the readers all that abuse bullshit?!!!
- Third. V's puppet at the Ministery adopts a law against using Floo, portkeys and Apparition inside Dursley's house. Ok, let's say the Order creates a Portkey. What's the Ministery going to do about it? As demonstrated by Dobby, they cannot detect who exactly casts the spell near a minor, and as demonstrated by Crouch Jr., they cannot detect the destination either, so whom and how were they supposed to arrest for it? Hell, how would they get to the house to arrest anybody with the Blood Wards on it? With the Apparition it is even worse. "Ahah! The Trace shows that Harry Potter was Apparated by an unkown person in unkown direction!... ... ... Well, drat."
- Alternately, even if you can somehow trace Apparition or Portkeys, just Portkey Harry somewhere with a wide variety of further travel options. Such as 'A-ha! We have followed the trail... to a Metro station. Now what?'
- Fourth. What's up with that asinine escape plan? Couldn't Harry just put on his Cloak of Invisibility and walk/fly away? Or use Polyjuice to turn into someone else, while the Death Eaters focused on the fake Harrys? Why didn't he just hide in the Dursley's car or disguise himself as Dudley for a day?
- Smuggling Harry out like that, visible or not, disguised or not, would've caused the protective wards around the Dursleys' home to drop immediately. There was no advantage to be had in concealing his departure when the Death Eaters could discern the exact instant he left Privet Drive for good.
- What? Where does it say that? They've been smuggling him out half the times and another one he ran away, and somehow the wards endured. Besides, what would it matter? They didn't capture Dursleys, did they, meaing the car was concealed from them. No reason for Harry not to be there.
- If Harry leaves Privet Drive with the intent of never returning, the wards collapse, its said in-story. This still does not prevent them from using a combination of invisibility and physical transportation, though — even in the story they have enough time to get well up into the air and away on brooms before the Death Eaters attack, so there's at least several minutes of lag time between 'Harry leaves the grounds' and 'the Death Eaters are alerted that he has'. Imagine if an invisible Harry had flown away on a Disillusioned broom instead of being surrounded by highly visible decoys... what, exactly, are the Death Eaters going to do about it? He could fly all the way to Ottery St. Catchpole like that and they're hardly likely to intercept him if they can't see him, especially at night.
- Now that I think of it, scratch leaving under the Invisibility Cloak. What exactly was preventing Dobby or some other elf from whisking Harry away from the house without all that contrived "7 Potters" bullshift, since as we've seen back in "Chambers" they can not only Apparate into protected areas, but also conceal their Apparation from the Ministery.
- Dobby was under the employ of Aberforth Dumbledore and Hogwarts at the time. The Order probably had never met him yet, and they don't run Hogwarts so they couldn't just summon any house-elf from there.
- Even if they hadn't, DD obviously had, and it would've been strange and stupid for him not to introduce such a valuable ally (or Aberforth himself, for that matter) to the Order. Regardless, HARRY surely knew about Dobby and his abilities.
- Aberforth wanted nothing to do with the Order, as he said so when we meet him. As for Dumbledore, he was dead before he could start taking a hand in Harry's evacuation.
- *sigh* DD knew he was going to die for an entire year and make all the arrangerments in the world. Aberforth's feelings for the Order have absolutely nothing to do with asking Dobby for help - he is a free elf.
- All the questions of whether the Order knew of Dobby rather moot, because surely the Order had access to other house-elves. The real question is, was there some reason that house-elves couldn't have apparated Harry out, or were the Order just idiots and didn't think of them?
- When you know of any other house elves that they had, tell me. The Weasleys don't own any. Moody, Lupin, and Kingsley don't. Etc.
- Etc what? Hogwarts had a lot of house-elves emloyed, and the school was under the Order's control at that time.
- And not just some other house-elves - a very specific house-elf, who was obliged to answer Harry's summon and obey his every command, and of whom the Order definitely knew - Kreacher. And please don't say something like "the Order couldn't trust him" or "Harry wouldn't want his help after what he'd done to Sirius". Just don't.
- Why not? Harry only used Kreacher for one task during the previous year, and made no use of Grimmauld Place during then. His aversion to both probably made them slip his mind. The Order clearly wasn't using Grimmauld Place anymore either. They must have thought Kreacher made the place unsecure since he had already leaked some info to the Malfoys. He could have possibly leaked more if they stayed around him.
- What "stayed around him"? Summon him, have him teleport Harry, forbid him from mentioning the incident ever again to anyone, send him back to Hogwarts. Done.
- Fifth. Even within the scope of that asinine escape plan they somehow managed to make it more retarded. If they decided to turn people into Potters to confuse the Death Eaters and discourage them from using AK, why didn't they turn all of themselves into Potters? Wouldn't it make for more confusion and discouragement?
- It's probably because the real Harry Potter needs some protection from the Death Eaters in case they do go after him, so having that many Potters would mean that he would either have no protection or be the only one with protection. Either way is too risky since the Death Eaters would know he is the most well protected Potter.
- What do you mean? The'd still go in pairs, of course, and would cover each other.
- First off, Hargid couldn't have taken the potion, being half-giant, and he was the one who'd been paired with Harry. Having six pairs of Harrys flying together and then one Harry with a half-giant would've made it that much more obvious who the Death Eaters should be going after. Having each Harry paired up with someone different helps to direct them off the real Harry's trail - for example, I'm pretty sure it was said that they went after Moody and Mudungus first and foremost, due to thinking that the most experienced Auror would have the real Harry travelling with him.
- Ok, DON'T pair Hagrid with Harry then. Actually, don't do that period, since he sucks at magic and cannot do anything to protect him (anyone can press buttons on the motorcycle). Had it been literally anyone else, they could've simply side-apparated him away once they left no-apparation zone of Harry's home.
- I'm not sure what difference that would've made...In addition to being an intentional diversion, Hagrid's half-giant status also gives him a greater resistance against many types of magic. Even Moody went down at once after he got hit with the Killing Curse...In short, everything in the second chapter had to happen like it did because Harry was still underage. He can't Apparate without the Ministry (and the Death Eaters within it) finding out through the Trace. Even once the Trace runs out on his birthday, then the protections over Privet Drive disengage also, meaning he can't wait til then - the Death Eaters would be on the house in an instant. Thus, he had to be escorted manually using any means and methods the Trace couldn't detect.
- Use an elf for side-apparation. They cannot detect those. And even if they do, who cares? There was never any indication they could detect where he was apparated to. And even if they can, who cares? They had a hideout prepared that even Voldemort admitted was beyond his reach. "the Death Eaters would be on the house in an instant" - and he would be away in an instant. So? "he can't wait til then" - wait until a few moments before the deadline, and side-apparate him to a random location. Even if the Ministery can trace him, they'd have to have at least some reaction time. Keep jumping to random locations until the Trace dissipates and they can safely jump to the destination. "Hagrid's greater resistance" - Uhuh. Whould it help against, say, a big rock, let alone something sharp, thrown at him? Didn't think so.
- Apparation - if apparating involves teleporting from one place to another, it wouldn't surprise me if the Ministry would be able to tell where Harry apparated to in addition to where he did so from. It also wouldn't surprise me if the Trace were able to bypass whatever enchantments that had been placed over the Burrow. Wait until a few minutes before - if the above is true, then they'd still know where he'd apparated to even if it took them until after the Trace had expired to react. Hagrid - true, but the Death Eaters wouldn't have come prepared with those because Hagrid was only one possible target, travelling alongside seven others. And they also might not have known giants or half-giants were resistant to magic. Using an elf - maybe they couldn't have gotten one? And who said house-elf apparation was undetectable?
- "then they'd still know where he'd apparated to" - hencewhy the addition of "Keep jumping to random locations until the Trace dissipates". "maybe they couldn't have gotten one" - O'Rly? Dobby, Kreacher, the entire Elf-staff of Hogwarts. "And who said house-elf apparation was undetectable" - Rowling did. In "Chamber" they detect Dobby's levitation spell, but not him apparating away. And even if it wasn't, with the above evasion tactic it doesn't matter.
- Now that I think about it, how did the Death Eaters even manage to pass that ban on apparition and portkeys inside Harry's house? Yes, they infiltrated the Ministery, but the Minister of Magic himself, Scrimgeour, was a good guy (a jerk, sure, but still, strongly opposed to Voldemort). The ban makes no sense - if Voldemort could get to Harry through any of those means, he would've done it in the previous two years. He didn't, meaning it's safe, and besides, even if you argue that incoming apparition is a security risk, it says nothing about outcoming one, does it? So, how did they pass this nonsense around Rufus, and if they did in secret, why did noone in the Order contact Scrimgeour about it?
- Why didn't the "good guys" inform the non-wiz population about the Death Eater threat? I'm not even talking specifically about involving the non-wiz military, although that as well, - but just in general, you'd think people have a right to know when they are being targeted by genocidal terrorists, so they might at least make a choice to stay or flee. The nonwiz-borns were given this choice, so why was the rest left to rot? I can kinda understand keeping the secrecy in previous books, when the situation was still under control-ish, but now the "good guys" have lost (yeah, I know, Harry Potter is still out there, whooptidoo, that's not an excuse), have the dignity to admit it and pass the torch! And yet the idea of breaking the masquerade isn't addressed once, despite all the casualties it had caused. What the hell?
- Given the reprecussions that would ensue from bringing in the Muggles, it's likely they were hoping to unite a force from other countries in hopes of taking down Voldemort after Harry's "death". If the Muggles are brought into the fight, then there's no going back. Centuries of protecting their world from the threat of Muggle extortion and persecution would be thrown out the window. As long lived as Wizards tend to be, it's likely that they are only a couple of generations removed from the witch-hunts of Salem and England, so this isn't a historical event for them; it's a legitimate danger that could, in the long run, be more dangerous than Voldemort is.
- And meanwhile hundreds or thousands of people suffered and died for that hope, which was, by the way, completely ungrounded, since they had two years after V's return had been recognized by the authorities, and there was absolutely no indication of any foreign involvement (not that there was any during the first incursion). So, sorry, but I'm not buying it. They've lost, and they had to know it. And yet they left the non-wizes to burn. Which brings me to this: if from the point of view of "good guys" the non-wizards were worse than Voldemort, then what were the Death Eaters wrong about in their determination to oppose those monsters rather than cowardly hide under the bed and hope that the monsters wouldn't find them like the "good guys" did?
- "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death". As sympathetic as Hermione's explanation is, this still doesn't make any sense. The Potters' lives revolved around defeating a man whose main motivation was immortality and they probably knew it very well if Dumbledore was anywhere as open with them as he was with Harry- even if he wasn't, the death eaters are a pretty good clue. Why on earth would they put that motto on their headstone?
- Maybe the emphasis is on "last"? As in, it is the last thing that you should worry about when fighting other, more important enemies?
- It ties back into the symbolism of the line. "The last enemey that shall be destroyed is death" doesn't refer to living forever; it refers to accepting that death comes to us all and, thus, no longer fearing it. If you no longer fear death, then what can hold power over you from then on? Besides, they were fighting an army called the "Death Eaters". Perhaps some poetic license on the Potters' part?
- What exactly prevented V from simply making more Horcruxes?
- Body Horror, for one thing. Each Horcrux kept making V turn more and more into the hairless red-eyed snake man that he became, and even more might end up robbing him of something vital, either organ or limb. Hermione also mentions that the book that said how to make Horcruxes mentioned it had the side effect of making your soul extremely unstable, which would escalate with Voldy because each time he has less soul to split apart. By the time he attacked baby Harry, his soul was unstable enough that he created a Horcrux without realizing it. Making more after that might have had his soul flying to pieces at the slightest touch.
- Did he even a) know and b) care about it? After Harry he made another one from Nagini, and was fine (well, not notably worse than before).
- Of course he knows, he read the same book as Hermione. If those side effects worsened after he made Nagini into a Horcrux, well, WMG mode here, but one could argue it's the reason why he was so frequently arrogant and Villain Ball clutching at times, such insisting only HE kill Harry. It's not definitely proven, but having less soul possibly could mess with your intelligence, if not sanity.
- It is most likely is, although V's insanity and stupidity is so glaringly inconsistent I call Plot-Induced Stupidity. But nevertheless, that's my point. If his sanity was suffering form unrestrained horcruxing so much, would he really care by that point about the consequences of making more? He didn't know just how unstable his soul became, did he.
- Even while insane, he was still hoping to benefit from having only seven Horcruxes and thus being blessed from the magical properties associated with seven. Maybe if he had managed to stop Harry soon enough after learning the boy was hunting for his Horcruxes, he might have tried to make replacements.
- Well, after he found the first vaults ransacked, he had to know he had less then seven - you'd think he'd want to restore the pool before the final battle. Hell, even much earlier he had already known that the diary had been destroyed! Why wouldn't he want to replace it?
- He may simply not have been able to make any more. It's suggest that the main soul remains as damaged as before when a horcrux is destroyed: producing the set he did may simply have left Voldie down to the last dregs possible to keep his body running.
- How is it fair that Voldemort apparently has to spend his afterlife as that weird baby thing? Harry tells Voldemort to "feel some remorse", but that doesn't make sense. Is feeling remorse a conscious decision?
- Remorse is the thing that can, apparently, suck that part of soul in his Horcruxes back to him and repiece his body up. And also, he is stuck as that 'weird baby thing' in Limbo forever, so he can't go 'on' or go back, either. Stuck as a crippled and disgusting baby nowhere forever.
- Feeling genuine remorse over his actions would allow Voldemort to restore his soul (albiet at the risk of dying in the process). As for being fair...being trapped in Limbo for all enernity likely beats out whatever eternal punishment was awaiting him for being the second most evil wizard to ever walk the earth, right?
- It was supposed to be a cruel punishment, but also a fitting one, in order to show the man who thought that nothing in the world could be worse than death just how wrong he was. And by telling Voldemort to feel remorse, he was asking for him to look back on the people he'd killed and realize the worth that each life held, so that he might come to feel sorrow at taking each one away. Clearly, Voldemort wasn't capable of doing this, especially after coming so far, but Harry really meant it more as a "Well, it's probably not going to work, but what have I got to lose?" kind of thing, where even he himself didn't believe Voldemort would do it.
Aberforth and his goats
- On the subject of "Aberforth and his goats", mainly the "inappropriate charms" he was persecuted for using on them. Ok, the conclusion that the Internet jumped to does not surprise me, since, well, Internet. What makes me scratch my head is, was that actually the conclusion Rowling herself implied? I'm judging by that reported answer she gave to a 8-year girl who'd asked her about it. It sounded like it totally was, what with Rowling acting like she was caught completely off-guard, asking the girl how old she was (because what, if the girl was older, she'd tell her the horrible truth?) and then hastily blubbering some incoherent nonsense about "keep clean, curly horns", and ending it with "So, that is my answer to YOU." What the hell was up with that? Not only was it ridiculously easy to come up with a safe and sane answer, like that he made the goats tap-dance in front of non-wizards, or charmed them so that their coat grows extra fast and thick, but clothing made out of it would give the wearer a terrible itch, or something like that. But even if we assume the worst, what was that "inappropriate charm" even supposed to be, that it warranted persecution? Restraining them, making them more... responsive, changing their anatomy, what?! Seriously, I wonder what went on in that woman's mind when she wrote it.
- Probably she was making a throwaway joke and did not think that some people would overthink it to ludicrous degrees. Jokes about molestation of farm animals are as old as the hills that that molestation is carried out amongst in the UK. The answer to the kid was probably her being caught off guard that someone asked it and having to come up with an answer on the fly that preserved both the girl's innocence and the joke for the older readers.
Half-giants and polyjuice
- Hagrid can't take polyjuice potion because he's half-giant. HOWEVER... Fluer is part Veela (her grandmother) and takes it without a problem.
- (Half-)Giants are resistant to magic.
- Also, when exactly was it stated that half-giants could not take Polyjuice potion? Lupin said that the potion was made for transforming into humans. When Hermione used cat hair by mistake, it had bad side-effects and was certainly not an exact transformation. Lupin did not question Hagrid because he knew Hagrid (being half-giant) couldn't be a (human) Death Eater in disguise. So, to sum it up: non-humans can take Polyjuice, but it can only turn someone into a human. That is why Fleur could take it.
- Or it's because Fleur is only 1/4th Veela, thus, she's human for the most part, whereas Hagrid is split cleanly down the middle between human and giant.
Dumbledore and Grindelwald
- Been skimming the Headscratchers, and haven't seen this one mentioned (or if it was I missed it). Throughout the book, Harry is upset at Dumbledore following the revelation of his time with Grindelwald, and shrugs off any suggestions that Dumbledore simply changed or that he was young. The latter may be justifiable, as you can hardly use "being young" as an excuse when they're the same age then that you are now. But in the case of the former, what always occurred to me, and never seemed to get brought up except maybe at the very end, was that Dumbledore changed his ways precisely because of that time with Grindelwald. The end of the book reveals this is exactly what happened, as Dumbledore's foolishness caused Ariana's death and made him realize what he'd been about to become. He resolved to be different from that day forward. But Harry never seems to think of that before the talk with Aberforth at the earliest. Until then Harry struggles with trusting Dumbledore's wishes because Dumbledore did horrible things in his past and that was it. Am I alone in thinking what I do (That Dumbledore changed because of his past indiscretions rather than in spite of them)?
- You're not. I think it's pretty obvious that Dumbledore changed because of the whole Ariana thing.
- Why did AK destroy horcruxes in '98, but not in '81? Harry became a horcrux when his mother died, not after he'd "defeated" V.
- Harry is an accidental horcrux, so the method of creation doesn't have to conform to standard. Apparently, Voldemort's 'loosened' soul fragment didn't come entirely loose and 'stick' to Harry until after Voldemort's soul was removed from his physical body by the destruction of said body... i.e., when his AK backfired.
- So what exactly happens to Snape after he dies? Obviously he doesn't decide to stick around as a ghost but what would he do in the afterlife, hang out with his mom for eternity? I mean really, let's quickly review his life: he had an emotionally abusive childhood, managed to screw up basically the only relationship that had any positive meaning for him and inadvertently contributes to the death of the person of aforementioned relationship. Then years later he has to interact on pretty much a daily basis with a reminder not only of the bullying he suffered at school but also a reminder of everything he could have had but lost due to his own mistakes. So basically his whole life is a giant vortex of misery and regret, then he dies. But what happens after death? It's not like he can really go be with Lily in the afterlife. Really at this point it seems like the only merciful outcome would be complete oblivion but that's not really implied to be an option.
- He's finally free from V, DD and Scarhead, not to mention all the other morons. I'd say that calls for a couple centuries of celebration.
- How is Voldemort able to infiltrate it to interrogate Grindelwald so easily? All he has to do is fly in through the window, it seems. I get that he probably breached the magical defenses of the place when Harry wasn't paying attention, but aren't there any guards? Grindelwald's been here over fifty years – if nothing else, there's got to be someone bringing him food and water. And in that case, how does no one detect activity in Grindelwald's cell when Voldemort comes calling; you'd think there'd be some sort of charm or whatever to alert the guards of someone using magic, since they're going to want to keep the man who wreaked havoc throughout Europe locked up? And even if there's no such spell, or it's waned after half a century – does no one hear them? Voldemort's yelling and (presumably) torturing Grindelwald, and Grindelwald's laughing and shouting right back – they're not exactly being quiet here, so, what? Or, there are guards, they do hear, and they let Voldemort torture and kill Grindelwald anyway, then let him escape? Even if they don't care about Grindelwald enough to intervene in his torture/death, surely they'd at least make an effort to stop Voldemort getting away; I know Voldemort's implied to keep his reign to England, and Nurmengard's in Germany or Eastern Europe, but they must know who he is, right? So – what?
- Quite a few possibilities. There's a spell that muffles sounds, so maybe V used that. Maybe there're weren't any guards, because it's been 50 years since G'd been a threat, so nobody bothers guarding him anymore, and chores like food delivery and waste disposal can easily be done with magic. Or maybe there were guards, and they knew what was going on and who V was, and stayed the hell away for that exact reason - because they weren't going to get themselves killed for G's sake.
- Moreover, how has Grindelwald managed to stay so informed? Is some guard bringing him newspapers or something? I mean, he knows who Voldemort is, what he's capable of, and that he's the sort of dude to go after the Elder Wand – he also doesn't tell him about the Wand to protect Dumbledore's tomb, and to do that, he's got to know Dumbledore is dead. How? For a guy who's been in jail for more than fifty years, he knows more than Harry!
- What's so weird about him being allowed newspapers?.
- Has anyone ever questioned or brought up that Harry, Ron, and Hermoine are guilty of murder? To wit; they formed a criminal conspiracy for the purpose of robbing a bank. During the commission of their robbery (during which numerous other felonies were committed including two uses of the Imperius spell, identity theft, fraud, etc.) an innocent goblin teller named Bogrod was killed by a security dragon when he wandered too close to the animal, as he was confused by the lingering effects of Imperius at the time. This is the very definition of a situation that falls under the doctrine of common purpose, a common law legal doctrine that imputes criminal liability to the participants in a criminal enterprise for all that results from that enterprise.
- Doesn't the law make provisions for members of guerilla/partisan forces acting to overthrow the occupants? It's expected after all that the resistance would have to commit acts of theft, assault and sabotage, and it's virtually inevitable that innocents will be caught in crossfire.
- The problem is that this all happened in Gringott's Bank, which is owned and operated by Goblins, and not the Ministry or the Death Eaters. The closest equivalent is if French Resistance fighters infiltrated a Swiss bank in order to steal some of Hitler's top secret papers during World War II, and a guard was accidentally killed. The Swiss are still going to demand justice. None of the three main characters even thinks much about Bogrod after they leave Gringotts, despite the fact that he was killed because of them.
- First of all, Bogrod only dies in the movie, and the movies took quite a few liberties with the story. Second, the bank knowingly and willingly provided services to the Death Eaters, in at least one case to convicted ones (Black cousins), by storing their property. I don't know the actual laws to this regard, but common sense dictates that by doing that the bank has labeled itself an accomplice to the DE regime and as such cannot put blame, if the otherwise justified actions against that regime caused them casualties, especially if they weren't intentionally or needlessly caused by the fighters.
- In the books, his fate is unspecified, but in one of the Harry Potter games, you uncover his skeleton beneath a mound of treasure at Gringotts. Two sources in the franchise confirm that he died in the attack, and while Word of God may be mum on the subject, it's still an issue. Secondly, in my comparison to Swiss banks was not accidental; Swiss banking institutions held gold for Nazi officers, as well as safeguarded their personal property. Those decisions were made above the head of the head teller at a given bank location. So if the heads of a bank are complicit with Nazi/Death Eaters, that means that the employees are accomplices too? So if a French resistance fighter went in and robbed a Swiss bank, resulting in a teller getting killed, does that mean it's a wash, he shoulda seen it coming before he went and worked for a business whose associations he didn't have anything to do with and might have disliked?
- Remember the "Death Star discussion" from Clerks.? The employees may not be deemed active accomplicices to the DE regime, but they did chose to work for people who were. That doesn't mean they "deserved it", but in my eyes it does exonerates the Trio somewhat. After all, we're talking about an accidental casualty, not an execution, and if the Trio is aknowledged as a guerilla force, than it wasn't a "criminal conspiracy" either - it was an operation aimed at dismantling the illegal occupying regime. I will leave it to the experts, should any arise, to explain to what extent the guerillas can actually be excused for causing civillian casualties, but I guess there must be at least some leaway. Perhaps the Trio could and should still be admonished or even tried for neglect at planning the operation (which was horrendously stupidly orchestrated, of course), but let's be real here. Who's going to press charges against the heroes, the saviors of Britain and vanquishers of Voldermort? Success is never blamed. I actually doubt the goblins/Swiss would be eager to press charges in such situation. Not only would it be politically unprudent, but do you think they'd want to attract attention to the reasons WHY those guerillas hit their bank?
Destroying a horcrux
- In Deathly Hallows, we learn that it's a pretty rare thing that can destroy a Horcrux. Basilisk venom, the Sword of Griffyndor after it's had basilisk venom pumped through it, Fiendfyre, and an AK from the Elder Wand. So, since Voldemort wasn't the first wizard to create a Horcrux, just the first to make multiple Horcruxes, what happened to all the Dark Wizards before Voldemort who made Horcruxes, but people didn't know how to destroy?
- Unless they knew how to recreate their body, they lingered around as a spirit forever. But the fact that it's recorded how to destroy a Horcrux must mean that someone has destroyed one, especially if it lists multiple ways to. So they likely could be dead for good.
- Where is it recorded how to destroy a Horcrux? It was a big chore to even learn what a Horcrux was, and they had to learn how to destroy one through trial, error, and accident.
- It was recorded in the book Hermione got from Dumbledore's library. That's how she knew basilisk venom and Fiendfyre could destroy one.
- Okay, Voldy, I know you're deep into symbolism, but practicality has to win out sometime, y'know. Horcruxes are nearly indestructible, but a few known things can destroy them, namely basilisk venom and fiendfyre. Fully five of your Horcruxes were destroyed by basilisk venom, either directly (stabbed with a basilisk fang) or indirectly (stabbed with a basilisk-venom-imbued Goblin sword).
Hey, you know what's not only immune to basilisk venom, but actually strengthened by it? Goblin's silver, like what the Sword of Gryffindor is made out of. We don't explicitly know if Goblin's silver is similarly strengthened by fiendfyre, but it stands to reason, considering it's repeatedly described as completely indestructible and strengthened by anything that might otherwise harm it.
I know you tried and failed to obtain Gryffindor's Sword specifically, but did you seriously give up that easily? You couldn't buy, beg, borrow, or steal any other bit of Goblin's silver to make a basilisk- and fiendfyre-proof Horcrux out of? We're talking about eliminating your one remaining Kryptonite Factor and making you really, truly, absolutely immortal here. Surely that would have been worth the effort?
- If it can be made, it can be unmade. Surely there are goblins out there talented enough to destroy something made by their blacksmiths.
- Even if we assume for the sake of argument that that's the case, narrowing down the list of weaknesses from ""basilisk venom, fiendfyre, goblins" to just "goblins" is still a huge improvement. Hell, Voldy being Voldy, it wouldn't be out of character for him to commit a little goblin genocide and wipe out those who know the secret of unmaking his Soul Jars.
- It's also possible that Goblin silver can't be made into a Horcrux. It's said, is it not, that Golbin-forged items are incapable of sustaining damage or being worn down...The level of Dark magic that the making of a Horcrux entails would probably count as too damaging and defiling to very effectively "strengthen" much of anything, in my opinion.
Narcissa in the Forest
- Narcissa knows that Harry is alive in the Forest after Voldemort attempts to kill him. The only reason he isn't is because Harry is the master of the Elder Wand, tied to Voldemort, was Voldy's Horcrux, etc. Now, because Harry is the master of the Elder wand, the Cruciatus doesn't work on him. But Narcissa couldn't have known that. If Harry hadn't been the master of the Elder Wand, Narcissa's lie would have been obvious when Voldy Cruciated Harry, or done something else to humiliate him and show that he was dead. How could she have lied to Voldemort without knowing that Harry was the master of the Elder Wand? Voldemort would have killed her for lying to him and done goodness only knows what to Draco too probably.
- My only guess is that she must've known something about how the Elder Wand worked, and thus was able to piece the chain of its owners together until she realized that Harry was the one at the end of that chain, since he disarmed Draco at Malfoy Manor, and Draco was the one who disarmed Dumbledore the night he was killed - since the Elder Wand switches between owners on a whim, based solely on the slightest difference in power between one and the next, Narcissa must have figured that if the Elder Wand hadn't worked its Killing Curse on him as he was its master, then the Cruciatus Curse would be ineffective, as well.
- Narcissa didn't know Voldemort would inflict Cruciatus on Harry's "dead" body. She just lied to him and hoped for the best.
- Let's not forget that it wasn't Narcissa's intention to protect Harry in any way beyond declaring him dead. She wanted to get into the castle so she could reunite with Draco and then they would leave, and she was willing to help save Harry's life where she could in exchange. If Voldemort did find out Harry was still alive (that is to say, before he actually did), Narcissa could just claim he had been dead when she checked, and that she had nothing to do with him "spontaneously" returning to life. (Which she didn't, technically.) There's no indication she would've done more to try and help him.
Why seven Potters?
- During the flight of the Seven Potters, why did Harry need to maintain his own appearance throughout the battle? If six other people have already taken on his visage, why didn't they take it one step further by giving the real Harry Polyjuice potion to give him the appearance of someone else?
- Would it have made much of a difference? As soon as the Death Eaters see a different group of people leave than the one that entered, they know that some Polyjuice trickery is going on, and at that point anyone can be anyone so there's no reason to target any particular person (until the real Harry tips them off). They could have been fourteen Mundungus Fletcherses and the end result would have been more or less the same.
- When Aberforth says that Ariana was “attacked” by three Muggle boys, what exactly did he mean by that? He never does clarify in which sense she was attacked, and after reading the story, all I’ve been left thinking is what sort of person would want to attack a six-year-old in any way, shape, or form, especially one that would end up traumatizing her. I’ve heard some people suggesting it may have been rape, but Aberforth makes it clear the boys were simply afraid of what she was doing and wanted her to stop it, so how would raping her help them in that regard?
- Moreover, where were her parents at that? You'd think causing enough mental trauma to permanently damage a person would take some time and effort, and the victim would hardly keep silent and cooperative, and yet... nothing?
- MOR Eover, were there no wards of any kind? These people lived in a mixed settlement, and they had an infant child whom they know is prone to uncotrollable magic, and yet some random kids just saw her doing stuff and then just climbed over to her?
- ...I thought her magic became uncontrollable as a result of traumatization from the attack...Or did Aberforth say she had a difficult time controlling it before that point?
- Speaking of unconcious magic, isn't IT supposed to protect wizard children? Harry teleports to the roof just to escape some bullies, and yet in the same but worse situation it's completely absent?
Surviving the Killing Curse
- After reading this book, I fail to understand the specifics behind Harry surviving the Killing Curse. When I first read about it, I'd assumed it was because the Elder Wand was loyal to Harry and powerful enough to destroy the Horcrux inside him without actually killing him. But then ghost-Dumbledore shows up and describes in (some) detail how it was Harry's blood in Voldemort's veins that kept him rooted to the world of the living and how Harry willingly sacrificed himself helped to keep him alive, and...pretty much every other explanation than the Elder Wand's allegiance to him. Most important to me, though, is the blood magic - why did Voldemort using Harry's blood in his resurrection manage to keep him from dying?
- Voldemort, in some ways, was like a Horcrux to Harry. By having a bit of Lily's blood protection in himself, it meant that he could not kill Harry because there was another piece of Harry alive in him too, so to speak. If all of Harry wasn't killed including his blood in Voldemort, then Harry wouldn't die.
Dementors and Horcruxes
- Horcruxes are formed when you commit murder to split your soul and then seal a portion of that soul inside something else. Since dementors can suck out peoples’ souls, does that mean they could potentially destroy a Horcrux by sucking the soul fragment out of the object in question?
- Maybe, but it depends on if they can do that for an animate object. Maybe they'd have a better chance with a living Horcrux like Nagini.
- After Apparating from the wedding, Harry and friends wonder how the Death Eaters were able to find them so quickly. Harry suggests that maybe they somehow have the trace on him again, but Ron rebukes this by explaining that it needs to be applied onto him in person. Does this mean that every individual infant witch and wizard has to be visited and have the trace applied to them, personally, one by one, by the Ministry? Or is it done when they attend Hogwarts or aother school? (In which case, when? Harry never mentions an instance where this occurred in the first book.)
Retroactive Horcrux Immortality
- If Harry was an unintentional Horcrux, doesn't that mean he's been nearly immortal since infancy? Only something that could destroy horcruxes could destroy him, just like Nagini.
- In-universe Plot Armor, one could call it.
- Also, would it be possible that Voldemort cast additional protective enchantments over Nagini? Various characters stated that Slytherin's locket was under heavy magical protection on the outside, which was why opening it before attempting to destroy it was ideal. Maybe Voldemort did the same thing with all his Horcruxes, or at least with Nagini, after he found out Harry was searching for them - since he didn't know Harry was a Horcruxes and still wanted to kill him, obviously, he would've been exempt from these.
- A Horcrux can only be destroyed when the object it's contained within is damaged beyond even magic repair - this would extend to different lengths for different vessels, seeing as the human body is much more fragile and easily penetrable than, say, a locket, diadem, or cup. In addition to protective enchantments, Harry being killed (or even dying naturally, as was mentioned further up on the page) would've likely destroyed the Horcrux that was inside him, since you can't use magic to bring someone back from the dead.
- The Dursleys are shown leaving Privet Drive well before the Order arrives to escort Harry elsewhere before the trace expires. But shouldn't the protection over the house have lapsed already? I thought the only reason Harry was safe there was due to the blood relation between him and his mother's sister, so shouldn't the blood wards have been broken once Petunia left the house to go into hiding?
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