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Varys' views on the Lannister-Stark conflict
While pretty much everything about Varys is a mystery, the thing that confuses me most is this: when he first starts talking to Eddard, he seems to be encouraging him to investigate into the Jon Arryn affair, and he speaks to Illyrio as if a Lannister-Stark war will help them bring back the Targaryens. But far down the line he is telling Ned to vouch for Joffrey, thereby keeping the peace between the two houses for the good of the realm.
- Above all else, Varys abhors chaos. I don't think Varys wanted a war between the Starks and the Lannisters. He simply thought a war was inevitable after the assassination attempt on Bran and wanted to make sure they made the best use of it. Asking Ned to vouch for Joffrey was a desperate attempt to delay the Stark-Lannister war for a little longer. If only Joffrey were less of a shithead...
- Varys wanted the realm destabilized until Aegon Targaryen lands in Westeros with the Golden Company . It isn't that he didn't want chaos, he wanted things to stay muddied enough until then, before one faction could consolidate their hold. And even then, when they seem to do so, a wrench gets thrown in the works.
Did Jon Arryn use the Sky Cells or the Moon Door?
I know we never got to meet Lord Arryn but from what we've heard he seems as honorable and old-fashioned as Ned. Surely such a man wouldn't throw people out of a hole in the floor to execute them or put them in a cell that would drive them to suicide? I'm sure Ned didn't approve of it...
- Winterfell has its own dungeons, and I'm sure they're no more pleasant than the sky cells. Not so sure about the Moon Door, though. Maybe if Jon Arryn pushed the condemned through the hole personally? It is right there in the throne room after all.
- Jon Arryn is an Andal. He has no reason to follow First Men traditions.
- This is a series that runs on Values Dissonance as well as Gray and Grey Morality. He might have been a stand-up guy and just as honorable as Ned, but he was still born, raised, and in charge of a part of Westeros... and pretty big on tradition.
- Besides, when you get down to it, are the Moon Door and Sky Cells really that cruel a punishment? Keep in mind, this is a society where hanging is a common punishment, which can lead to painful death struggles for several minutes if done improperly or the executioners want to be extra harsh, and where traitors are subjected to drawing and quartering which is entirely based around causing excruciating torment to the condemned. Compared to that, a fall for a couple of seconds followed by instant death seems outright compassionate.
- "Honorable" is a word without a meaning; or rather, it's a word with whatever meaning the person using it wants it to have.
Why didn't Tyrion use the rings he was clearly wearing to bribe Mord?
Rings are not coins. They have to be appraised and sold and you never get fair value, not least if the jeweler couldn't do much with them but have them melted down for gold because they're pretty clearly designed for a member of House Lannister. As well ask why he didn't offer the very fine clothes off his back: money is portable, instantly negotiable, and universally (well, almost) valued.
- That, and maybe Tyrion simply has a fondness for his jewelry, and would rather pay Mord in cash if he can. Tyrion didn't know that Mord would take a few goes to come round to the idea.
- A bigger question is why Mord didn't simply swipe Tyrion's rings while he was at it. He seemed inclined to rob him rather than trade with him, anyway.
- Exactly. Mord might've just taken the rings when offered and not done his part of the bargain. "Send this message and I will give you the gold AFTER" works a lot better since it ensures that Mord has to go through with it before he can get his gold.
- And what is Mord going to do with Tyrion's clothing anyway? Surely someone such as him has no children and he certainly can't fit in Tyrion's clothes. He wouldn't think that they were worth anything to him.
- Would the Eyrie's turnkey resort to blatantly stealing from a high lord, even if said lord is in his custody? Mord would likely share a sky cell with Tyrion if he was caught with an ill-gotten piece of Lannister bling. He isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but he should know there's a difference between a piece of personal jewelry and a coin freely given for a small favor.
- Well, he certainly didn't have a problem with beating a high lord — and in the books (and implied in the show) he kept throwing Tyrion's food out the window instead of feeding him. It seems like the whole point of having Mord around is that he's too dumb to worry about things like that. Plausible deniability — you can treat your highborn prisoners as badly as you'd like while pretending not to know about it, and if anyone finds out, you can just blame the halfwit jailer. (Lord Manderly uses a pretty similar trick to save Davos' life after being ordered to kill him in a later book.
- I haven't read the books but considering Lysa's extremely hostile attitude towards Tyrion, she may well have ordered Mord to beat and starve him. And even if she didn't, Mord has plausible deniability on his side for both. If Tyrion says Mord beat him Mord can claim Tyrion tried to pick a fight. If Tyrion says Mord threw his food out the window Mord can say Tyrion ate the food and is just lying. It's not like Lysa will believe a Lannister over her own jailer. On the other hand, if Mord is caught with Lannister gold on his person or in his quarters then people would assume he either took a bribe or stole from a high Lord.
- I think we can chalk this up to the creators just not thinking of removing Tyrion's jewelry in the scene.
- It's debatable whether a smart man like Mord would even know to think of things other than coins as being worthy of value or exchangeable for wealth.
- He uses one in The Pointy End to bribe Shagga.
Tyron has his hands up to ward off Mord's blows while offering him gold, then in absolute exasperation states that he doesn't have any gold on him now.
However, his fingers are clearly adorned by several gold rings. Why he doesn't use the rings as a bribe is never addressed. Two episodes later, he does
use one of his rings to bribe Shagga, stating that it's worth more than everything the mountain clans own combined. One can attempt any number of justifications, but the most obvious explanation is that it's simply the show-runners' error. They probably didn't think of it before they filmed the scene, and didn't have the time or budget to rewrite or reshoot anything.
- The scene where he offers the ring to Shagga with the explanation that "it's worth more than you've ever owned" is probably more symbolic of House Lannister's influence (it's not just ANY solid gold ring but a Lannister signet) in matters other than wealth. He is the queen's brother after all.
- Or the gold is literally worth more than the entire tribe owns. Remember, in the next episode Tyrion describes a single silver stag as unusually high payment for a whore. Gold is worth a lot in Westeros.
- I always thought the "commanding a high price" thing was down to the fact that it was a silver stag for each of the guards...
- Debatable. Doesn't Tyrion toss Theon a copper coin for his next tumble with Ros? It might be fair to say that with all but the cities on a barter system, that any minted coinage is worth more than we'd normally expect.
- Yeah, there have been a couple of references to various whores to the effect of: "Anyone with a few coppers can own you for the night"
- The ring itself is worth literally more than all the tribe owns, but it does show how much wealth and power the Lannisters have at their disposal. If just one of their little trinkets is worth that much, imagine how much they could do for the hill tribes.
- It could be that his rings (aside from the tiny little pinky ring on his left hand), being a silver colour in appearance and offered to Shagga with the mention of high-quality steel, were in fact made of high-quality Lannister steel rather than gold.
- No one wears steel jewelry, much less a Lannister.
How, exactly, did Ned not anticipate Littlefinger's betrayal?
- Littlefinger said, again and again, that he was untrustworthy. Then, when he offers great advice to Ned (seize the throne for yourself), Ned scoffs at his advice and basically tells him to fuck off before implementing his own plan. And just earlier, Ned was offered aid from the (much more) honorably Renly and refused. There's Honor Before Reason and then there's carrying an Idiot Ball.
- That's sort of the point. While Ned is largely a pretty likeable guy who cares for his family and friends, his rigid adherence to honor regardless of the circumstances is his Fatal Flaw. He assumes that if he's straight with someone, they'll be straight with him in return, and it bites him in the ass.
- Littlefinger reiterated his untrustworthiness precisely to make himself seem harmless. It defused Ned's fears of him.
- Littlefinger explains it in the whore-porn scene: "Slowly. You're not fooling them, they just paid you. They know what you are. They know it's all just an act. Your job is to make them forget what they know. And that takes time. You need to... ease into it"
- Correct — Littlefinger is actually a master at this game of manipulation and deceit, as the rest of the story will show. He got Honor-driven Ned to trust him by telling him *not* to trust him... which made him sound like an honest man, compared to all the other court suck-ups.
- Also don't forget his wife, one of the few other honorable people in the show and someone Ned trusts completely, vouched for Littlefinger saying that they have been friends forever and that he would do anything for her . . . and I guess she was right he would do anything For Her, up to and including betraying her and killing her husband.
How did Ned figure out who the father was?
- Okay, so Ned looks through the book and sees the Baratheon-Lannister unions all produce children who look like Baratheons, fine. He reaches the conclusion thanks to Sansa that the children are not, in fact Robert's. Fine, makes sense especially considering how Cersei and Robert very openly feel about each other. Then here is the one thing that makes me scratch my head: he jumps to the conclusion either as or before he meets with Cersei in the godswood that the father is, in fact, Jaime Lannister. Now, maybe he was just making a fortunate guess based on his dislike that Cersei freely admitted right after being accused, but I at least can't quite follow the logic. This was also my only real headscratcher from the books so far. By no means a deal-breaker, but still a bit odd.
- It's a little more expanded upon in the books, but basically the book Ned was reading also contained the history of the Lannisters, not just the Baratheons. They're large and old families and the book goes back centuries, and every time Baratheon wed Lannister, whether male to female respectively or vice-versa, every single time the child had black hair. In addition, while we only met one, the book also makes clear that there are other bastards of Robert's out there, one of which Ned saw (who had her father's hair) and one of whom he's heard description of (and is the spitting image of his father at that age). Finally, there is a pretty short pool of blond people who could have fathered Cersei's children: the Targaryens are dead, Loras Tyrell is too young (as well as super gay, though Ned probably doesn't know that)... that pretty much only leaves someone from Cersei's own family. Of which Jaime is by far the likeliest candidate. On top of that, Ned figures out at the same moment that's probably the reason why someone tried to kill Bran. It's circumstantial, but it supports his theory, and there isn't exactly a Magna Carta to hold him back.
- Sansa gives him the clue in "A Golden Crown" — she whines that Joffrey is a lion, like his mother; he's nothing like a Baratheon. Ned gets a certain "A-ha" look...
- It's also mentioned more than once in the books how much Joffrey looks like Jaime.
- But Jaime's twin sister is Joffrey's mother. The fact that Joffrey looks like Jaime doesn't really mean anything.
- Actually it does. Given that Cersei and Jaime are supposed to look at a lot a like (more so the books than the show) and the kid winds comes out in the very same, it gives Ned some more circumstantial proof.
- Plus, if you know anything about genetics, you'd know that twins that are brothers and sisters can only be fraternal twins, which means that they wouldn't, in general, look more alike than any other brother and sister.
- I thought when Ned asked Cersei: "Your brother... or your lover?" he was sort of testing the ice, not being certain about Jaime being the father yet. Cersei's response confirmed it.
- The books suggest, though not outright state, that Cersei and Jaime were far less subtle and discrete than they should have been or thought they were. Tyrion, Littlefinger, Varys, and their uncle all knew without them knowing they knew. Its likely Ned picked up on some signs that they were fucking that he wrote off because they were siblings, and once he discovered that Robert couldn't be the father, he thought back to that.
- Also remember that both Jon Arryn and Bran were both attacked to protect this secret, which very strongly suggests that the affair is ongoing. That further narrows the list of suspects, not the least of which because Jaime was probably the only blonde in Winterfell when Bran fell.
- Let's not forget Jon Arryn's final words "the seed is strong," which would suggest that Joffery is more then half Lannister.
- I took that whole thing not as an admission of incest (like a previous troper said, I figured Ned was just "testing the ice" with the incest thing), but merely an indicator that Joffrey wasn't Baratheon. It doesn't matter WHO Cersei's sleeping with, as long as it isn't Robert, Joffrey's in trouble, and Ned had just come to the conclusion that Baratheons have a dominant dark hair gene. The rest everyone else pieces together just because they all hate the Lannisters and want to believe it.
- I always thought it was pretty obvious how he figured it out. When Ned found out that Robert wasn't the father, he likely remembered what Catelyn told him: Bran's fall and subsequent assassination attempt on the day almost every man in the royal entourage was out hunting — everybody except Jaime Lannister, that is. From there it's an obvious connection from the secret of Cersei's children to what Bran saw that day that made the Lannisters try to kill two people who came too close to their secret.
- I wondered why he decided that Joffrey couldn't be a Baratheon based on hair color, but never looked at his own children with suspicion.
- It's more like he looks at all three children and notices ZERO of them have black hair when historically EVERY child of a Lannister-Baraetheon union have had black hair.
- Good question. I think because he noticed in the book that every child of a Baratheon has always had black hair regardless of the wife's coloring (so he's basically the Gregor Mendel of Westeros...)
- Or the husband's. Baratheon women all had black-haired children too.
- It should be common knowledge (in Westeros as well as real life) that kids sometimes don't inherit the hair color of their darker haired parent — and sometimes they always do (since neither of these is an uncommon occurance). Jon Arryn and Ned not only studied the history book to find out that Baratheons never seem to produce blonde-haired offspring, but they both also confirmed that EVERY known bastard child of Robert's had his black hair. This would be reason enough to assume that Robert is one of those people who can only beget dark-haired children, thus making his three "legitimate" blonde-haired kids look suspicious. The Stark family probably didn't have a history of always being dark-haired, so Ned wouldn't have a reason to be suspicious of his own children.
Is Joffrey an idiot or something?
- His father and grandfather AND mother are at war with one of the most powerful houses in the land, and he goes and has the patriarch of said family executed!? Even CERSEI was screaming "WTF ARE YOU DOING!?" at him while his girlfriend was pleading at his side...and now his father has been captured by the Starks. Way to go, Joffrey, Jaime's about to be eye for an eye'd by Robb Stark!
- He's a spoiled brat who's always gotten his way and is prone to act very sociopathic. Of course he's a complete idiot when it comes to actually ruling.
- He's 14 years old (so, yes. Most 14-year-old's are). Also as far as he knows, Ned Stark just tried to usurp his throne for no reason and his Mom's never actually explained to him why it's important to let Ned live, just ordered him to do so.
- He was raised with Cersei's values and Robert's bloodlust. He considers Robert his father and wants to be a tough guy to make him proud.
- Joffrey is Stupid Evil to the core and everyone knows it after he pulled that little stunt. Unfortunately, he's the king, so no one can really tell him to stop.
- So, short answer, yes, he is.
- Joffrey seems to be smart enough to understand that everybody is making him into a puppet ruler, and decides to show that he won't be held in anybody's leash in the most spectacular manner possible. He lacks any understanding of the bigger picture and the realities of being a king however, thus only managing a demonstration of why he needs that leash in the first place.
- Think about the amount of parental guidance Joffrey got in his life. There wasn't much from Robert, who was too busy hunting whores and fucking boars. There was almost none from his father; in a later book, Cersei warns Jaime from even standing near his children for fear that someone will make the connection just by seeing them side-by-side. And his mother, Cersei, who gave him most of his training? Not always on top of things. In other words: no father figures, and a Small Name, Big Ego for a mother. It's no wonder Joffrey's a raging incompetent. Who would have taught him not to be?
- ...YES! He's stupid, he's arrogant and he's a sociopath, and now he's king he's drunk with power. And bear in mind that he's certainly dumb enough to believe in all honesty that Ned was behind his father's death, considering that's what everyone's been telling him and the guy just confessed, so that puts the execution in a slightly different light. What's much harder to understand is why his Chessmaster advisers didn't foresee it, and take extra-special pains to convince him just how very stupid it would be.
- Littlefinger himself points out in the novels that pawns in the Game of Thrones have a nasty habit of making their own moves that even a Chessmaster can't predict. Joffrey would have just nodded when his mother and his advisers were explaining what should be done with Ned Stark and why it's a good idea to send him to the Wall, while secretly planning to show everyone up.
- Reading in between the lines, it's entirely possible that one or more of his Chessmasters didn't engineer the situation.
- Add that this is the new king's first real act of power, and he has probably been hearing all over that his mother is the real power behind the throne. Her telling him what to do drove him to do the opposite, to prove he was no-one's puppet.
- He's an inbred cowardly little bastard (literally) and in universe inbreeding is implied to lead to madness ("The Mad King" was thought to be "Mad" for just that reason). He's not so much an idiot as an insane, sadistic little twit who sees Ned as the embodiment of everything he is not (Courageous, Honorable, Strong, etc.) and the man who tried to dethrone him on his coronation day. Given the way he's acted up until this point I'd be scratching my head if he didn't have Ned executed.
- Remember that scene where Joffrey bullies the butcher's boy? That scene wasn't just there to show us that Joffrey is an evil sadist. It was also there to show us that when Joffrey is an evil sadist, everybody will rush to support Joffrey and persecute his victims. Joffrey has learned all his life that he can Kick the Dog and Rape The Dog whenever he gets bored, and if the dog tries to bite back, it will soon be a dead dog. The boy does not know the meaning of the word "consequences." Who would have taught it to him?
- Short answer: yes. He really isn't the sharpest spoon in the drawer. More the point he likely decided on the spur of the moment that sentencing Ned to the Night's Watch was weak and that the crowd needed a better show. They got one.
- I suspect a lot of Joffrey's apparently idiotic tendencies and arrogance stem from the way he views the kingship. Look at his character entry quote: "The king can do what he likes!" In his mind, the king is simply the ultimate power, second only to the gods (or quite possibly even above the gods). If Varys had asked Joffrey his riddle about the King, the High Septon and the Rich Man, Joffrey would have just given him a blank look for asking such a stupid question (or possibly had him beheaded for even implying that anyone could be above the king). As far as he's concerned, for the king the very concept of "consequences", or the idea that other people could disagree with him, does not exist. The king is always right and just simply because that's the natural order, even if he doesn't act with righteousness or justice. He can't conceive any reason anyone would even TRY to oppose him and he can't imagine the possibility of his side not being triumphant. It's the reason that the only person he cared for or respected at all was his father Robert — even though Robert wasn't a very good king, he was the king and was therefore the most important person in the world. So if he's a sadistic psychopath then why shouldn't he indulge in his every vicious whim — he's the king, the world and everyone in it will bend itself to his will.
- I think that's almost right — I don't think he thinks that the king is inherently infallible or that "no-one would even try to oppose him", but he thinks his power is absolute and uncontestable, so he doesn't see the need to keep his underlings appeased. He knows he can be wrong and he knows that people might dislike him/disagree with him, but he doesn't care because he thinks there's nothing anyone can do to him.
- He's also dealing with a pretty vicious misogynistic streak. All his life, the man he thought was his father has been openly disrespecting (and occasionally beating) his mother and treating every other woman around like a disposable fucktoy. In the pilot, he jokes with the Hound about how he "cannot abide the weeping of women." He expresses his attraction to Sansa through psychological and physical abuse. Now he's King, and he's got two women alternately ordering him and pleading with him to do something: of COURSE he does the opposite! He wants to prove to himself and his subjects that he doesn't have "the fragile heart of [a woman]".
- As Tyrion puts it in Season 2 after Joffrey's reaction to getting hit with a cow-pat is to order his men to Kill 'em All, sparking a riot — "We've had vicious Kings, and we've had idiot Kings, but I don't know if we've ever been cursed with a vicious idiot for a King!"
- Littlefinger seems to want a war between Starks and Lannisters. He could have made a few comments to Jofferey about what a real king would do in order to make sure Ned died.
The Birds and the Spiders
- OK, so this is a pretty trivial Just Bugs Me, but if Varys is a 'spider', and his spies are his 'little birds', shouldn't they be eating him? Or at the very least, not sharing their flies with him...
- More likely than not, Varys originated the 'little birds' part himself when he started out (perhaps even before he became Master of Whisperers), but everyone else (i.e. everyone who disliked/distrusted him) thought that invoking the imagery of a venomous creepy-crawler that traps its prey by spinning webs had a more appropriate ring to it than 'Varys the Birdkeeper'. The dissonance you mentioned may even have been intentional on the part of his detractors, in the hopes that one of the 'birds' would 'eat' the spider.
- I got the impression, in part due to Baelish and Varys' dialogue in the season finale, that Varys inspires fear in even the most powerful of men. That, despite being an otherwise powerless, weak, foreign eunuch, the Spider still commands the Birds. (Which acts as a stark contrast to the series' status quo of "might equals right.")
- It seemed simple to me. People call him 'The Spider' because he sits at the middle of his 'Web' of informants/spies/assassins who he calls his 'little birds' in reference to the saying 'a little bird told me'.
- Based on the book series, Varys has been trading in information for a goodly portion of his life, and established the phrase "his little birds" in his early life as a thief of knowledge. The "spider" bit came afterwards, in King's Landing, working for the Targaryens. The two are completely unrelated.
- To be more precise, in his early life they were called his "little mice". Whatever he calls them, it really makes no difference; they're small, harmless looking and get around everywhere without people noticing them or paying attention to them. And he's called the spider because he sits in the middle of a web of information.
- To make it explicitly clear; Varys came up with the "little birds/mice" metaphor on his own. Other people began referring to him as "the Spider" later on, and Varys himself has never claimed or used that moniker. It's the difference between how Varys views himself(as a very well informed individual) and how other people view him(as a damn spider).
- Alternately, he is one of these types of spiders http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goliath_birdeater
What exactly is Syrio Forel's job?
- He is a short Braavosi man who has his own generously sized chamber in the middle of the Red Keep. He does not have any official job, even the Lannisters' soldiers call him the "dancing master," and not a single soldier in King's Landing is trained by him — not only do they not use even remotely the same style, but they don't treat him with any respect, either. Why did he live in the city, let alone the castle, at all? Where did he get money?
- Presumably he's a fencing master and is being paid by Eddard Stark. I think that "dancing master" is used because it wouldn't be considered appropriate for a girl to be taught fighting, so Syrio is officially giving Arya dancing lessons. That being said, it is possible that Syrio does actually teach dance and/or that fencing would be referred to as dancing — since everyone in Westeros fights with broadswords or jousts, maybe fencing is considered just for show, not combat.
- If he was just the resident fencing instructor, then even if fencing was looked down on as a girlish style or a kind of dance, everyone would be aware that he at least knows his way around weapons — however, the guards initially expect him to be entirely harmless. Either he's a professional dancing master who Eddard happened to know was an expert fencer as well, or he was brought in specifically by Ned to train his daughter under that cover story. I'd guess the latter.
- Person who read the books here to help! Syrio is from Braavos, a town across the narrow sea akin to Venice. The blade Needle is a blade made in the style of the "Water Dancers", the preferred way to fight over in Braavos. So when Ned found out about the sword he looked into finding an instructor skilled in the blade over in Braavos. Syrio was/is the "First Sword of Braavos" which meant that he was a high skilled fighter for the main lord over there. The Seven know why he decided to go to the Red Keep and teach Arya, but he did. Also, yes, "Dancing Master" is a cover story for the sword training and also clear because Arya's learning the "Water Dancing" style of swordplay.
- he could have been there as a mercenary, maybe run into trouble back home so he fled to Westeros, making his way as a sellsword until Ned find him and offer him a better job
- He used to be the "First Sword of Braavos", basically a personal bodyguard to the leader of one of the Free Cities across the Narrow Sea. Why he's in King's Landing isn't fully explained but presumably his old job gave him enough coin to travel as he wished. When Ned found Needle and decided that Arya needed formal training he hired Syrio. As stated above, his being her "dancing master" was just a cover story.
- Thing is, during the medieval and renaissance periods in real life, it was quite common for fencing masters to give dancing lessons as well, because the basic skills and footwork transferred over. Assuming that aspect of historical culture got carried over into Westeros, they really should have been aware of at least the possibility that he was an able swordsman, even if his main source of coin was as a dancing master. Hell, the fact that he was the former First Sword of Braavos (which would be something they would most likely have heard even if he hadn't declared that fact to them, tavern rumours being what they are) should have told them that he had skill, and if he was in truth working as a dancing instructor they should have known he'd definitely still be in shape. Essentially, I think if "dancing master" is a cover story, it is at best going to be the sort of blatantly obvious polite fiction to placate the worst gossips. Especially considering the only person who seems in the least bit taken in by it is Sansa. I think the majority of their arrogance in that scene comes from a combination of racism, belief in the superiority of their style of swordsmanship (and the design on their swords), and a firm belief that no-one could seriously hurt a man in full armor using only a stick (at least, not before he or his equally armored mates shoved 28 inches of steel down the throat of whoever tried).
- His own chamber? In the books, they practice in one of the dining halls in the Tower of the Hand with all the tables pushed to the side. I don't think Syrio actually lives in the castle...
- It's possible that he was there to teach younger members of the royal family dancing, and Ned was informed that Syrio was also First Sword of Braavos. Everybody knew him as a dancing instructor, and it would be very likely that a girl of Arya's age would be given dancing lessons while in King's Landing (and therefore entirely possible that a dancing instructor would be there, given that Arya is only a year older than Princess Myrcella).
- Syrio might also have been in King's Landing to attend the Hand's tourney, if only to study the fighting styles of possible opponents (we see Bronn doing this in the book).
- To answer the question of 'Why didn't the people facing him show any awareness that Syrio Forel was a trained fighter?' Answer: Because Sir Meryn is a barely-competent thug and the Lannister common soldiers with him were ignorant twats.
Why didn't Syrio pick up a sword?
- Fighting off four armed soldiers with only a wooden sword is awesome, I think we can all agree, but they all had swords just lying on the ground afterwards. Kinda makes his Heroic Sacrifice less powerful when it seems so pointless.
- If you listen to the audio as Arya flees, there is much metal clanging and screaming. Since Syrio already had his training sword cut in half, one wonders if he did not indeed pick up a sword to continue the melee. There is an awful lot of fighting noise as she runs, so we can imagine the fight was far from over, and he must have extended the combat somehow.
- In the books, it's made pretty clear that water dancing is very different from Westerosi fighting, as it uses rapier-type swords and quick, light-footed movement above all, as opposed to the longswords of the Seven Kingdoms. It could be that Syrio just wouldn't be effective with one of the Lannister guards' swords.
- I figure that it was an effort to show mercy to Arya. Get her to run away before he starts killing the guards, in an attempt to preserve as much of Arya's innocence as he can. Seeing her dancing instructor kill people in front of her may not be something that he wants Arya to see and remember. Especially since the majority of his instruction has seemed to be along the lines of teaching Arya how to stay alive in a sword fight, rather than how to kill her opponent.
- With sharp weapons, those amount to the same thing — as indeed Arya shows a moment later when she kills the stableboy. The guards on the ground, incidentally, were dead or dying — never mind the absence of gore.
- Getting knocked on the helmet with a wooden sword may cause a concussion, but it's quite unlikely to kill you, at least unless repeated several times over. Those helmets do have padding, after all. The fact that there are several screams after Arya flees does indicate that more than one person dies painfully afterwards, so the chances are that Syrio does pick up the sword. The knight of the Kingsguard can be seen in a later episode unharmed however, so unfortunately it's likely that he killed Syrio, unless he jumped out of the window or something.
- Actually the screaming and metal clanging was not from Syrio but from a different room where the Lannisters were killing the Stark servants and guards, indicating to Arya she could not go that way.
- In the book, Syrio kills the non-Kingsguard guards using just his wooden sword, all while Arya is watching. He exploits gaps in their armor and leaves them all dead, illustrating the effectiveness of quickness and footwork against non-armored/partially-armored opponents. However, Arya leaves before Syrio fights the fully-armored Kingsguard, and the reader is left to assume that Syrio falls to the armored opponent.
- Defeated =/= killed. As above, it's rather difficult to kill someone with a wooden sword by striking them in the head. Knock them out? Perhaps. But outright killing them? Unlikely.
- I feel that it should be noted that it's very hard to "knock someone out" (as in induce total unconsciousness) for an extended period of time through blunt trauma without killing them, or at least without causing permanent brain damage. The guards on the floor are most likely either awake or dead.
- His wooden sword is pretty effective in the book. He whacks one guy in the throat, jabs another in the eye, and breaks a third's wrist. Not to mention the one who got used as a human shield.
- It should be noted that his actual fate is never revealed. Unlike virtually all offscreen deaths, Goerge RR Martin has never confirmed nor denied that Forel died, probably to leave himself an opening in case he wants to include Forel in future novels.
- It's also important to remember that the wooden swords have lead cores. That's going to put a lot of weight behind a blow. This, and the fact that Syrio is more agile than the guards and can exploit obvious weaknesses (he was in the middle of explaining the advantage of keen observation), you can see how he could deal significant damage to them.
Why did Jaime give Tyrion's dagger to Bran's would-be assassin?
- Catelyn is no Miss Marple so I get that she needed a pretty obvious clue the Lannisters were involved, but there doesn't seem to be a reason for Jaime to do something that so obviously implicates his house.
- Well it hasn't been mentioned exactly who sent the assassin, so there's no point in headscratching over this until we have all the facts.
- The most common suspect is Joffrey, who is the only one with reason to have the assassin use an extremely rare dagger that would be linked back to the Lannisters, as revenge on Tyrion for slapping him and forcing him to pay sympathy to the Starks, knowing Tyrion would be blamed for the murder.
- That's actually an interesting point. Joffrey is vengeful enough to do it and short-sighted enough not to see the disastrous effect it would have on his house if one of his family were accused of murder.
- There's no reason to think that Joffrey would be able to think far enough ahead to presume that Tyrion would be blamed for it, or that he knew the dagger was Tyrion's. The books make it clear, in fact, that the dagger was not even Tyrion's at all, and that Littlefinger's claim was simply a bald-faced lie calculated to bring the Starks and Lannisters into conflict (Tyrion's POV confirms this, and Tyrion notes to Catelyn that Littlefinger's fable is flawed: the story is that Littlefinger lost it to Tyrion betting over a joust that was won by Loras Tyrell over Jaime Lannister, but Tyrion never bets against his family). Still, the assassin's mutterings ("It's a mercy. He's dead already") give a clue as to motive. Joffrey overheard Robert (whom he actually desperately wanted to impress, as is verified by the genuine despair Joffrey displays at Robert's deathbed) mention that a swift death would be preferable to lingering in a coma, and Joffrey, using his enfant terrible logic, decided to try and impress his father by taking matters into his own hands. Naturally, he bungled even that.
- Here's a thought: the assassin stole it. The dagger ended up in Jaime's or Cersei's possession by either borrowing it or trading it or as a gift. After meeting with (one of) the Lannisters, they left him unattended for a second and he saw it lying around. Stealing it would be in his character because, with the exception of him causing a distraction, there is nothing in his one scene that points to the assassin as being anything other than a stupid, expendable thug. Admittedly, this theory requires that they met with him in a place where the knife would be lying around, such as their house or rented room. Not exactly the best move, but not as mind-numbingly stupid as giving him the blade would be. Although the theories as to why Joffrey could have done it are all reasonable, the only evidence that he did do it is that he's the only Lannister stupid enough to have handed it over.
- It seems that the original poster here is not necessarily asking who sent the assassin after Bran, but why Catelyn comes to the conclusion that she does. Am I correct? In both the show or the book, her evidence is too weak and she pays for it.
- Catelyn came to the conclusion she did because Littlefinger told her that it was Tyrion's dagger, and she trusts him implicitly because he is her childhood friend who was and is in love with her. Now, it's fairly obvious to us that Cat should not trust Littlefinger, but I think we're supposed to assume that she was blinded by her childhood relationship to see the person he had grown into.
- I think we are meant to assume that the Lannisters didn't send the assassin because of this. It's pretty clear that Tyrion was being set up, and the Lannisters would have no reason to implicate one of their own. Cersei might want to get Tyrion out of the way, but she wouldn't want to sacrifice the integrity of her house, and Jaime seems to actually care about Tyrion. I think we are led to surmise that someone is purposely trying to implicate the Lannisters in the hopes that the Starks and Lannisters will go to war with each other. We don't actually even know if the dagger belonged to Tyrion. We only have Littlefinger's word, and Littlefinger is a lying schemer. Wouldn't Tyrion have noticed if his dagger had been stolen? Especially a nice dagger like that one? Littlefinger tells us Tyrion won it from him when he bet against Jaime, but why would Tyrion bet against his brother the Kingslayer? There's a lot to the story that doesn't add up, which means there's more going on here than what we were told.
- Good points. I had just assumed the twins were trying to finish the job they had started and kill the boy, but there could be other things going on. It would probably behoove me to read the books.
- Chalk it up to Catelyn's near-terminal blind spot when it comes to Littlefinger. In the books (where these scenes are a little bit longer than they are on TV), she interrogates both Tyrion and Jaime about this separately, and both of the brothers make pretty much exactly the same point: that not only would it be stupid for someone to send an assassin with his own dagger, but, more to the point, Littlefinger's story about Tyrion getting the dagger only makes sense if you accept that Tyrion bet AGAINST Jaime in a joust — something that Tyrion had never done in his life.
Why are there no Baratheon guards with Robert?
- At King's Landing, Lannister guards cover the court like flies on jam but soldiers of Robert's own house are nowhere to be seen. Renly is likely have had a few among his entourage when it fled the city, but you'd expect Robert who is so obsessed with his past glory days to have his knights and soldiers around to remind him of those days, instead of bumping into Lannisters everywhere.
- Some minor book spoilers here, but more or less (it's explained a bit in A Clash Of Kings), the Baratheon brothers don't have any other family and their guards/supporters tend to be those affiliated with their in-laws. Renly is supported by the Tyrells and their bannermen (because he's arranged to marry Loras' sister); Stannis' wife is from a house called the Florents, so his guards are generally Florents and their bannermen; Robert is stuck with the Lannisters.
- To clarify the point a little further with info that the show didn't spell out directly: Robert is not the Lord of Storm's End, Renly is, and Stannis is the Lord of Dragonstone (the hereditary Targaryen seat). So most of the men at arms and knights that pay fealty to House Baratheon do so to Renly. The Kingsguard, the royal men at arms, and some Baratheon men (largely unnamed in the show) are theoretically Robert's but a lot of them have compromised loyalties. In the aftermath of Robert's Rebellion, Baratheon's strength was weakened by the war and then Robert had to split them to fill the royal household, provide Stannis forces to hold Dragonstone against restive Targaryen vassals, and cover Storm's End. Tywin took advantage of that to put Lannisters (various cousins and such) and former Lannister men into lots of positions in the royal household. Hence why men like Sandor "the Hound", Ilyn Payne, and others are nominally Robert's people but in reality have no loyalty to him whatsoever. Plus, Robert being the warrior he is just won't surround himself with guards to the extent a wiser man like Ned or Jon Arryn would.
- There are a handful of Baratheon guards seen when the royal entourage enters Winterfell and sporadic sightings while traveling south toward King's Landing. They're the ones wearing the light brown armor, though they're never seen again once they reach the capitol. It makes more sense in the books, when Lord Renly actually made the journey to Winterfell with the King, rather than being left behind. Presumably, Renly took them all with him when he left King's Landing in the wake of Robert's death.
- It could simply be left-overs from the books that don't add up with what's seen on screen. There Robert already uses the lion-stag sigil and Renly exclusively uses the standard Baratheon one. So the Baratheon men in the show that accompany Robert are either A) his men, just like in the books, regardless of Renly, B) they forgot to change that detail and they're are there despite Renly not being present himself, or C) the showmakers were aware of the fact but left it in to make it visually clear that despite Robert being the king there are just as many if not even more Lannister- than Baratheon guards surrounding the royal family.
- Tywin Lannister presumably provides many Lannister guards and the like as a condition for lending the throne obscene amounts of money. In the manner of, "Sure, you can have a loan, but would you take my nephew as your squire in return? I can give you the money, but I'd like a contingent of my own guards posted in the Red Keep to watch over Cersei. For her safety, you understand. Of course I'll lend you the funds, but I'd like my own sworn bannerman to have the honor of being your heir's personal bodyguard." And so on and so forth. Lending over three million gold dragons to the Iron Throne is worth a lot of favors, to the point where it's no surprise that the palace is overflowing with Lannister guards and Lannister relations holding many important offices.
- It's precisely because he's "obsessed with his past glory days" that he thinks he doesn't need guards. I get the impression that Robert is a firm believer in Asskicking Equals Authority (it is after all how he got the throne) and he thinks that only a man who can't defend himself needs guarding (and of course he's blind to the fact that he himself has grown fat, lazy and careless).
Why does anyone trust Littlefinger?
- All he does is smile evilly all the time and make veiled threats.
- Part of his brilliance is his ability to present himself openly as untrustworthy as a way of drawing people into his trust. Works for Ned, anyway!
- He (and Varys likewise) never pretends to be trustworthy; he just pretends that you are the one person in the world who can trust him, because, for whatever reason, helping you happens to be in his interests. It's easier to believe someone like that than it is to believe someone who claims to be "good", especially in the Crapsack World that is Westeros.
- Everyone knows that Littlefinger is a self-serving conniver, but he's also very useful, and everyone thinks that they can use him to gain some sort of advantage. As Ned finds out, Robert used him to back his excessive spending for years.
- There's also the fact that people underestimate just how good a manipulator Littlefinger is. As the books show, even those who truly don't trust him in the slightest end up getting played anyway, because they think that, having seen through him, they can beat him. Essentially, Littlefinger's strength is convincing people that he's a Smug Snake, when he is in fact a full-fledged Magnificent Bastard.
- Littlefinger is basically Go T's answer to the Cigarette Smoking Man from the X-Files. As in, yes, everyone knows he's evil and nobody trusts him, but he's also sufficiently awesome at gathering information, that he always has too much useful information for anyone to want to kill him. He would make sure that if someone wanted to kill him, he would always be able to give them something else that was more attractive to them, (money, information, one of his women perhaps) than his death.
- Also, he's lowborn (i.e. from a very poor, weak, young and non-influential family). This is a huge part of his appeal in the books, since most of the older noble houses (i.e. everyone) think that lowborn = harmless. Littlefinger has no armsmen, he holds no lands, he doesn't lack for money but he doesn't show it in any way (he invests his coin rather than spend it on luxuries). In other words, he can't possibly threaten anyone, so what harm could it do to trust him? Only Tyrion and Varys recognize his ambitious nature as a threat.
- Littlefinger is not technically lowborn (i.e. he is a noble). It's just that he is (as the book puts it) the "smallest of the small lords". He lords over the tiniest of "The Fingers" (hence, "Littlefinger"), a small rocky area on the Vale that extends into the Narrow Sea. Very bad, barren and "useless" lands. But still enough to grant him a title.
- Littlefinger is interestingly enough still a Lord, not a Landed Knight (like Davos Seaworth or Gregor Clegane), even though his holdings are tiny and he has only two men at arms (Lothar Brune and Oswell Kettleblack). This means he can dispense the King's justice on his lands, by executing or imprisoning any that break the law, whereas a Landed Knight must seek a trial from his Liege Lord. But agreed he's not particularly rich or powerful, nor does he have a respected lineage (his grandfather being a successful Braavosi sellsword).
- In fact, that's something he shares with Varys. You know how people in the Night's Watch and Kingsguard vow to "father no children and hold no lands" in order to render themselves aristocratically harmless? Varys exploits the fact that "entire" men don't feel threatened by eunuchs, and Littlefinger is similarly "harmless" due to holding no lands (except, eventually, the indefensible white elephant that is Harrenhal — but no-one grants him any useful lands).
Why do Sansa, Bran and Arya have posh Southern English Accents when all of the rest of Ned's offspring have rugged Northern English accents?
- Cat doesn't because she's more of a Southerner (though if Westeros is directly relatable to England she should talk like a Brummie :P) but this inconsistency annoys me. Sansa may be using a 'phone voice' to fit in at court but Arya wouldn't! Girls and small people can talk Northern too...
- I would think it may be because those three tended to be under the care of Cat or the Septa rather than their father.
- Because they didn't place the actor's accents very high on the list when casting? Don't get me wrong, I thought it was weird how many different accents the Stark family has, too, but really that shouldn't be top priority.
- I concede that this is probably the case; Samwell Tarly's accent does not exactly scream "highborn lad," either.
- In the antebellum south, men and women often had distinctly different accents due to differences in their customary upbringings. There's no reason why the same cannot be true here.
- Except that in that case Bran would have the same accent as the other guys, not the girls. And if you listen to the bonus features, Isaac Hampstead-Wright isn't using his normal accent; for starters he swallows his final "t"s a lot more when out of character.
- Actually, it seems that Bran is Cat's favorite child and she seems to dote on him. So it is conceivable that Cat had more of a hand in his upbringing than she might have with Robb.
- Or even that all the boys had accents like Bran's when they were his age but were moved to shed it when they became adolescents and spent more time in training with Rodrik Cassel and generally becoming men of the North.
- Because most people don't notice, including myself.
Does snow ever melt north of The Wall?
And if it doesn't, how can trees grow there?
- A Wizard Did It.
- Joking aside, the books heavily imply that there are a lot of supernatural forces subtly influencing the world. That, or maybe it's just in the world's arctic circle.
- Yes, "supernatural forces" Did It. By magic. Nothing to do with wizards. *Serious face*.
- I suppose the snow does melt north of the Wall, up to some point. The Westeros map ends with the "Lands of Always Winter" (which is completely unexplored, and where the White Walkers come from), so it stands to reason that the lands below that, but still above the Wall, are not stuck in a "permanent Winter".
- It's important to note that the 'Lands of Always Winter' don't start right at the Wall, but are actually several hundred miles north of it. The Haunted Forest goes through the same seasons as the rest of Westeros, but is the first to really feel that Winter is Coming
- The Wall is described as 'weeping' sometimes, so temperatures are not always below freezing. Also, the wildlings' territory must be at least nominally arable to support their population, which means the permafrost line is therefore almost certainly much farther north.
- Original questioner here. Jeor Mormont answered this a few episodes back, when he told that Qhorin Halfhand had to live a full winter north of the Wall because he couldn't cross the Frostfangs "before the thaw". So yeah, snow does melt there — up to a point at least.
How powerful is the one sitting on the Iron Throne?
I haven't read the books and have seen five episodes, so perhaps I'm missing the point, but is there a reason everyone wants the Iron Throne? What does the person ruling at King's Landing rule over, besides that area? And how do The Wall, Winterfell, and King's Landing relate to eachother and who, if not the King, controls them? Also, in the first episode and a few episodes later there was mention of some barbaric group of people (I don't think it was the Dothraki or White Walkers)on the other side of some area; who are they, where are they and how do they fit into all of this? And where are Dany and her brother from (was it on the map at the beginning of the show?)Basically, I need someone to explain the role of the King, and the current power rankings in the GoT universe in general.
- That's... a lot of questions. Have you considered reading the books? They've got maps and family trees, they help a lot. As for the power rankings, I suggest you read up on the Feudal system; Winterfell and all the other castles in Westeros are held by lords (like Ned Stark and Tywin Lannister), each of whom has sworn to obey the King on the Iron Throne (so he effectively rules the whole continent). In turn the lords have "bannermen", or barons, who are loyal to them, and they rule over a smaller parcel of land. Knights are right at the bottom of the pile, and run small estates. The peasants don't own any land, they're just allowed to use it to farm on by whichever noble owns it. The Wall marks the edge of the kingdom, and all the "wildlings" on the other side of it are considered uncivilized savages.
- Well that is the question that the entire series is asking as well. Varys has a great riddle about this in the Second Book — the rich man, the king and the priest. One of the main themes of the book is who actually holds power and why. In theory, we're talking about a feudal society where the king and his lords have mutual obligations to each other. However, that is not how it is in practice. A rich and powerful lord (Tywin Lannister) could gain power while the king still nominally rules and a royal family could gain an advantage (i.e. dragons) which allows them more absolute and centralized power than a normal feudal relationship.
- Cersei points this fact out quite well to Joffrey early on when he says he'll create a royal army loyal to him and use them to crush the uppity Starks. She points out that any troops he draws from the North into the Royal Army would be loyal not to Joffrey, but to the Northern bannermen and the Starks. Joffrey doesn't seem to immediately get that just because he's king, everyone would not automatically obey him, and that the king only possesses power when everyone else acknowledges it. There's a reason why Tywin is the puppetmaster of this entire conflict, and Joffrey is pretty much just a puppet.
You guys have been extremely helpful, thank you. So generally speaking the King rules most of the continent, but the series itself makes it a point that 1)every King rules differently, and some use their position more effectively than others to a varied degree of success and 2)being King doesn't necessarily mean you have any authority whatsoever? Awesome. I have a better idea of what the series is about (the show, at least) since I finished Season 1 today (episode 9: I lost faith in humanity). Game of Thrones
is essentially "Everyone wants the Iron Throne for various reasons."
- Feudalism was a scenario where you had the lord of a particular township or castle, who had serfs working his land. The serfs subsisted from said land themselves, and gave the lord a cut of what they produced, and he in turn gave a cut of that to the king. There were a few different types of serfs, and whether or not they could be kicked off the land, depended on which type they were. The king, in turn, held authority over the collective group of said lords, in a central location, the capital. Before the Magna Carta at least, the monarch had absolute power in theory, but it primarily came down to what the lords were willing to tolerate in practice. Henry VIII was a good example of a post-Magna Carta king, who still threw his weight around a lot, and generally had people killed when he felt like it. People were generally willing to take a lot less crap from a monarch, than what we tolerate from our leaders today.
- Not to turn this into a discussion on English history, but Henry VIII is actually a pretty bad example of a post Magna Carta monarch; that venerable document was pretty much comatose during his reign and there's a really good argument that he was the most absolutely powerful British head of state ever(that is to say, before or after Magna Carta). Getting back on subject, it seems like what goes on in Westeros isn't entirely what we would call feudalism. It helps to remember that the Great Houses were originally royals of their own kingdoms before the Targaryens came along When Robb Stark is proclaimed King in the North, this is what the Northerners are reviving. The realm is still called "The Seven Kingdoms of Westeros", strongly implying that this past isn't totally discarded. In summary, I'd say that the likes of Tywin Lannister or Ned Stark are something of a mix between dukes and minor kings, and the whole Westerosi system is more of a mix between medieval European feudalism and the American federal system.
- I think he meant that Henry VIII was a good example of a post MC king that still threw his weight around. His comma usage is throwing you off.
- Bottom line is: first there are the peasants. Nobody cares about them. Peasants have to obey all Lords, even the most minor. Minor lords sometimes have castles of their own and their own banners, but they are all "bannermen" to one of the Seven Lords of the Seven Kingdoms (ie: Houses Baratheon, Lannister, Stark, Tyrell, Tully, Arryn and Martell) each of which has a reasonable big castle as their seat of power and some land that is under their command. But ALL of the Seven Lords have to obey the King in the Iron Throne, as well as the people that obey the Seven Lords.
Why does Tyrion make Shae Sansa's maid?
While he does do this in the books, it happens later on in the story and though it makes sense if he wants a spy in Sansa's rooms, again in the books it was partly because he wanted her to be closer to him without arousing suspicion and it was her cover story. In A Clash of Kings
, Shae's living in a nice house on the outskirts of the city to keep her under cover and free from Tywin's wrath, and Tyrion has to negotiate a sort of truce with Varys in order to be able to slip out to see her. In the show, she already seems to be established in the castle and no one seems to mind too much. Shae basically appears to have gotten bored with lazing around in the lap of luxury all the time and wanted something to do — like serving a bratty teenage highborn?
- Only Varys and Bronn know of her because Tyrion keeps her stuck in the room all day. That's what she is complaining about in the beginning of Episode 3. I gather that jumping ahead to having him assign her to Sansa is a practical change — it prevents them from needing more sets and characters. It also keeps her more connected to the others and gives her actress more to do.
- She hasn't got any human contact besides Tyrion and Varys. Sansa is surrounded by Lannisters. Tyrion may have shrewdly realized that they'd be likely to make friends, and he'd have a lot of influence over Cersei's pawn. What is unlikely about the change from the book's version is that Cersei would allow Tyrion to appoint Sansa's handmaid — she'd probably quite like a spy there herself.
- Except that in the short time Tyrion is The Hand of The King, he is the one calling the shots, not Cersei.
- Cersei is savvy but I don't think she's savvy enough to think of putting a spy in among Sansa's personal entourage. Either that or she might not have thought it necessary, considering Sansa can't go anywhere without being surrounded by Lannister eyes and ears.
- The fact that she's surrounded by Lannisters makes it all the more likely that she'd want to spill the beans in private — and it works both ways, she'd also be suggestible to people she thought were her confidantes. In the books, IIRC, it's strongly implied she has spies among Sansa's servants.
- At this point, Cersei probably doesn't have a spy with Sansa because there isn't any reason to. Sansa is completely cut off from everyone and clearly brown-pants terrified. It's not like Cersei even needs to get an actual confession from Sansa to accuse her of treason, and she's no threat to Joffrey or Cersei's position.
- S2Ep7 shows that Cersei does have spies within the ranks of Sansa's handmaidens. Shae is simply Tyrion's spy, but she's a bit more active than the passive spies Cersei planted.
- Of course Cersei has spies among Sansa's entourage...
Where does the show exist in terms of continuity?
Given the details that have been changed, does it exist within its own, or does it supersede that of the novels, or is it just non-canon in the ASOIAF mythology?
- ...it's an adaptation. It has its own continuity.
- The extras on the Season 1 boxed set spell out a backstory and a world heavily continuous with that of the novels (with a few minor tweaks to dates and the like). The past is basically the same, but the future is likely to be written in different ways.
Where are any of Catelyn's guards?
Catelyn appears to arrive at Renly's camp with precisely no guards or entourage at all, and leaves with no guards as well, save for Brienne. So the mother of the self proclaimed King in the North is prancing around Westeros with no protection on the road whatsoever?
- There are two guards with her when she arrived. You can tell they're Northmen by their plain style of armor in contrast to the soldiers gathered at Storm's End. Presumably there were more guards waiting on the outskirts of the camp just Catelyn Stark got separated during the chaos that occurred.
- I would assume that Renly's people weren't about to escort a large group of armed and armored men, from one of the opposing armies, right up in front of their king. Even if they were supposed to be there for a "peace envoy."
Is there a specific reason why Arya doesn't ask Jaqen kill Tywin Lannister and Gregor Clegane?
I've only read the first book, so I'm somewhat confused. Those two are high up on her shit list, and she has a master killer at her beck and call. Kill those two in the right moment, and there should be plenty of time for her and Gendry to escape in the ensuing chaos, and their deaths would spell doom for the Lannisters in the long term, inevitably resulting in painful deaths for Joffrey and Cersei. Arya is a clever girl and should know well enough how important Tywin is for her enemies.
- The most obvious explanation: Rule of Drama (killing of the most important villain(s) prematurely would have thrown the story of its tracks). In the books it's handwaved away by Arya asking about it and Jaqen mentioning how long it might take to kill Tywin or Joffrey, so she opts for the more immediate route (but she also has a lot more reason not to waste time since the arc where she's basically under Tywin's protection was exclusively established for the TV show).
- She is a child, and more tempted to silence the violent bullies around her than the big targets. She comes to regret her choices.
- I believe she also specifies the Tickler first to see if Jaqen really will follow through with it or if he's just screwing around with her.
- Tywin is not in Arya's list. In fact, he was the one that put an end to the tortures and executions at Harrenhal, if he dies they'll likely return and Arya knows this. As for why she didn't say The Mountain... well, we shall see I guess.
- In ep 7, we see what happens when Tywin suspects a plot to kill him — he hangs and tortures half the garrison. If Tywin died under suspicious circumstances, she has every reason to believe she'd be tortured to death.
- This does seem like a bit of a Plot Hole. The situation doesn't come up in the book, as Tywin didn't show up until after she'd used up her "wishes". However, because I generally prefer to give these things the benefit of the doubt; Tywin is Affably Evil in a castle full of bullies, torturers, and rapists. Arya may be aware in the back of her mind that Tywin is an important target, but be distracted by seeking revenge for crimes committed in her own sight. Or, she might be saving him for last, and similarly to the book, some contrivance will force her to use her last death on something else.
- Not being faithful to the book doesn't a Plot Hole make. As pointed before, there is little reason for Arya to choose Tywin to begin with, let alone as her first kill. Besides, she is just a child.
- It's not a Plot Hole because it's not faithful to the book; it is a Plot Hole that exists in the show, but does not exist in the books.
- That's not what a Plot Hole is. There's no reason for Arya to target Tywin with one of her wishes since, despite being a general he was also the one who put a stop to the torturing of prisoners which directly saved Gendry's life. She named the Tickler because he had the most emotional impact (compared to The Mountain who despite ordering it all only pointed at people and gave them over to The Tickler), then was saving her other two names. As for why she didn't send Jaqen to kill Joffrey, maybe she didn't think Jaquen could pull off a hit on the most well-protected man (security wise) in all of Westeros? Sending him to King's Landing also means he can't kill anyone at Herrenhall if she needs someone dead then and there.
- In addition, in the book Tywin was at Harrenhal while she still had her "wishes", they just never interacted; she does consider going to him and revealing who she is but considers it unlikely she'd even be allowed near him, and when he leaves to return to war she realizes too late that, hey, he's the one she should have named. Again, she's just a child getting back at those who've wronged her, she doesn't think of the bigger picture.
- The TV series seems to have it this: the first kill is the Tickler, to see if Jaqen will do what he says he will. Then Jaqen has to do a rush job of Amory Loch because he catches Arya with a stolen message and is going to see Lord Tywin. With the Mountain torturing half the garrison, even a master assassin would have to lay low for a while, then Arya can't find him because he's been sent out on patrol duty (he's a Lannister soldier for the Mountain remember, who's out searching for the Brotherhood who are assumed to be behind the latest killing). By the time Arya finds him, Lord Tywin has already left and Jaqen isn't willing to chase after him and try a rush job of murder on a target who's now on his guard. Arya decides the next best thing would be to escape instead.
- Season 3 brings this discussion to canon, with both Gendry and Hot Pie pointing out she should have asked him to kill Joffrey, The Mountain or Tywin and win the damn war. So in universe it's acknowledged she dropped the ball with the three names, but she's still a child whose lost her father, whose sister is being held hostage by a monster, and sees a very loud sadist and a threat to her life respectively.
- I always interpreted it as her wanting to kill the people on her list (Joffrey, Cersei, etc) personally and didn't want him taking the satisfaction away from her.
Dany pronounces Qarth as "Quarth" without ever seeing the word written down.
- When Dany's bloodrider returns to announce that he's found Qarth, he pronounces it "Karth." Dany has never heard of the city. When she arrives at the gates, she mispronounces it "Quarth," even though she's never seen the name written down and would have no idea that it starts with a Q.
- Who's to say she never saw it written — maybe there was a road sign outside the Garden of Bones? "50 Miles to Qarth"? Or maybe Jorah spelled it out for her at some point. Or perhaps more likely, her mistaken pronunciation just happened parallel the spelling.
- Qarth seems to be in the big leagues of far-eastern cities, like Ghis and Asshai. It's possible she'd read about it as a child.
- When her bloodrider tells her he found it, she's never heard of it. She asks Jorah if he knows anything about it.
- The bloodrider was speaking Dothraki when he told her. Maybe she though that 'Qarth' should be pronounced differently in Common Tongue for some reason.
- It could easily be related to how Osterreich is called "Austria" in English. It's kind of the same sound, but it's pronounced differently between languages. Given the harshness of the Dothraki language Dany may just have "translated" the sounds in her head and happened to get it wrong.
- Doylist explanation: Dany makes the error, and is corrected, to make sure the viewers get the message. Arguably necessary exposition (I can easily see viewers making this mistake), if perhaps poorly handled.
- That explanation is actually quite true. GRRM actually wrote the very scene where the pronunciation of Qarth is discussed because it had been a source of debate amongst the So Ia F fanbase for sometime.
Why are Bronn and The Hound not wearing their uniforms?
One is head of the Goldcloaks and the other a Kingsguard, but they keep wearing the same blackish worn armor they did before they were promoted...
- The Hound does wear his armor during the end of the first season, but afterward he wears his regular armor, likely because he either doesn't care or wants to appear distinctive among the nancy-boy knights of the Kingsguard (its important to note that he hates knights and never takes the honorific of "ser" at any point). Bronn, meanwhile, is characterized by the colossal, epic, sun-blocking pile of fucks that he doesn't give. He's the head of the Goldcloaks, he'll wear whatever damn uniform he wants.
- With the large cast, they generally limit the number of costume changes to keep the budget down and to help viewers keep all the characters straight. In the story's world, the uniform of the Kingsguard is really just a white cloak and shield. The Hound is wearing the white cloak when Joffrey has Sansa stripped in the throne room. He pulls it off and covers her with it. I don't know if we've seen him with it since then.
- The part about the uniform of the Kingsguard being only a white cloak is not true. On the books, they also wear white armor (except for Jaime, who prefers using a golden one most of the time) and white shields. On the TV series, the armor seems to have been substituted by those matching golden armor they all wear. As for Sandor not wearing it, he doesn't want to even look like a knight.
- Finally explained in a conversation between Tyrion and Bronn in the Prince of Winterfell. Tyrion protests that Bronn looks like a common sellsword without a uniform despite being City Watch Commander, Bronn replies that he doesn't want to wear one because as he claims: [["The cloak slows you down in a fight, makes you hard to move quietly and the gold catches the light so you're nice and easy to spot at night."]]
Jon's lack of headgear.
OK, so Jon Snow is beyond the Wall, on icy tundra, where he acknowledges that spending the night without fire could be fatal...and he doesn't cover his head or his ears? Does he enjoy the idea of living the rest of his life without earlobes, assuming that he survives to do so? This baffles me even more considering that the scenes were shot in Iceland, where poor Kit Harington must have really suffered for his art, not wearing a hat of any kind during the shoots — only to make the scenes appear less realistic.
- This seems to be related to Helmets Are Hardly Heroic. Actually, almost no one in the Night Watch in the show ever wears a hat, except for Qorin Halfhand — which might explain why Halfhand is considered the savviest Watch member in-universe.
- According to the costume designer, they tried it with hats. It was impossible to tell who was who unless you had the camera right in their faces, so they removed the hats despite the costume crew's vocal objections.
Why does Sandor carry a longsword strapped to his back, over the chest?
This may sound nitpicky, but Game of Thrones
aims to give a realistic picture of a feudal society with a few supernatural trappings. As a bodyguard the Hound must have quick access to his weapon at all times. It's physically impossible for anyone to draw a longsword from a scabbard positioned like that. What is worse is that there is an extremely simple way to achieve the same effect without sacrificing realism: just make the strap shorter, and have it go over his shoulder, rather than across his chest, and he could draw the weapon in the fraction of a second without problem. That sort of thing belongs to Conan the Barbarian
, not Game of Thrones
- The primary weapon Sandor uses is sheathed at his hip. You can clearly see it when he's escorting Joffrey on S2 Ep6. He carries a big heavy blade on his back, but when he needs to draw his weapon quickly he uses the arming sword at his hip. You can clearly see him draw it from the hip when the riots start. The weapon on his back is just a backup, not likely to be used unless he knows of a threat coming beforehand, in which case he can loosen the strap, drop the weapon, and pull it from the sheath. But a longsword isn't exactly going to be the weapon a bodyguard quick-draws; the arming sword at his hip is.
- Given all this, the second, larger, and much more visible sword also serves to make him look more intimidating, which matters for a bodyguard.
- That sword is reserved for the battlefield and monsters. I'm guessing the Cleganes have a tradition of wielding anti-cavalry swords.
- Demonstrated nicely in "Blackwater", where he wields it in pitched battle against Stannis' forces.
Why exactly does Jaime think it's necessary to kill his cousin Alton to escape?
The reason he killed him was to lure the jailer with the keys close enough to strangle, but couldn't the same result have been attained by telling his cousin to pretend
to be dead/dying, thus luring the jailer close, and then have both of them attack the jailer and escape? Surely it would increase Jaime's likelihood of survival and escape to have an accomplice, and they could always split up once they'd gotten away from the camp if necessary. It doesn't even seem like he was killed for plot purposes, as it would not cause any unsolvable problems for the storyline for it to happen this way. Just a Plot Hole
- Desperation. The guard might be smart enough to recognize someone pretending to be dead, but a body twitching and gasping in clear death throes is a lot more likely to draw the guard in. Also, its questionable if Jaime's cousin would cooperate with him, considering how he's cooperated with the Starks so far. Remember that he'd likely be killed for trying to escape; Jaime is important enough to keep alive, but a relatively unimportant Lannister might get killed by accident while escaping, and attempting to escape would leave Robb disinclined to favor the guy if recaptured. He might also earn clemency by reporting the escape. Jaime can't be sure if he'd agree to help, and not rat him out if he revealed his escape attempt. So from a brutal, utilitarian standpoint, the most reliable use for his cellmate is as a twitching corpse to draw the guard in. Jaime has made it clear that he is very selfish already.
- There's also the point that they needed to give Jaime another Kick the Dog moment to remind everyone that "hey, he's still a bad guy." Sure, he's sympathetic, but he's still the same guy who pushed a ten year old out a window.
- Because "Kinslayer" rhymes well with "Kingslayer".
- I'd also dispute how useful Alton would have been in any escape attempt. Another person doubles your chance of getting caught. Jaime probably reasoned that Alton would have only slowed him down.
- Alton is a man of honor, and would consider it dishonorable to escape. Jaime isn't, and doesn't. He would therefore consider Alton a liability, as would refuse to cooperate.
- Unlikely. If such a thing were true, it wouldn't have been necessary for them to put him in the cell. The code of honor for prisoners is rather fluid. After being taken captive, Alton is expected to escape(and he probably would if he saw an opportunity that wouldn't get himself killed).note
- Yeah, I'd say Alton was a Hero-Worshipper for Jaime first, a man of honor second. When Jaime asked for Alton's help in escaping, the kid was practically bouncing with joy at the chance to help him.
- Jaime's losing his shit. He wasn't kidding about being unsuited for constraint. It's becoming clear that the Starks and Lannisters are at a stalemate hostage-wise, which means that he's going to be a prisoner until the war ends, and probably for the rest of his life if the Starks win — and the Starks are winning. As someone said above, he's desperate, and he doesn't really do clever plans. He's pretty much always had Tyrion around to make clever plans for him. By himself, his default move is pretty much to just start killing people and not stop until the problem goes away. (In the book, when Tyrion was arrested by Catelyn, his first thought was "Oh, crap. When Jaime hears about this, the idiot's going to head out into the street and just start killing Starks at random until somebody stops him.")
Why is Robert called a fool?
Okay, his public spending was out of control (though, in truth, given the myriad political favors he doled out to him, I doubt Tywin would have cared had Robert simply decided not to pay). But people were not
starving under him and generally enjoyed a much, much
better standard of living as compared to well, the insane monarch who killed babies 'cause of the voices in his head. Add to that him freeing the country from the aforementioned crazy man and you've got quite the formula for a man who, at the very least, should be praised to the high heavens by the common folk. The only criterion for calling him an idiot was because he was boisterous. Otherwise things were at least stable given his administration, and he wasn't harming that.
- You speak like it's a common opinion held by the smallfolk. Only people in power who know him think that he's a fool, mostly because of his spending habits, and the drinking and the whoring and all that. It's not quite as simple as that, of course. Robert had no talent as an administrator, and his policies left the realm deep in debt (not just to the Lannisters!) and he died before the consequences of that debt effected the realm... but he was still an amazing diplomat and general, and he managed to weld together a realm rent by rebellion via force of charisma and diplomatic concessions. The common folk, well, they likely mostly liked him during his rule, but there were always Targaryen loyalists, and there are always men who think the current ruler is a fool, and not everyone was happy with what he did during the Rebellion. Also, after he died, a five way civil war broke out, which might have soured opinions on him a bit.
- But it is generally accepted however, that the majority of that debt is to the Lannisters. Honestly, how many kings do take a center role in governing their country? Robert may not have instituted sweeping reforms but his spending policies, while idiotic, should not draw him into the level of mudslinging he's often subjugated to in universe.
- But that's just it, isn't it? In-universe, he catches a lot of flak, because, well, that's what happens to the man on top. Everyone hates the man on top. Add to this the fact that Robert is regarded as a fool by the Lannisters, they-who-shit-gold and who are one of the most powerful houses in Wseteros, and you'll get a lot of people who agree who really disagree but the Lannisters have already supplied them with their opinion. Hell, even Robert himself was a bit derisive of his own rule. Just look at the scene where he asks Ned to be his Hand; in his own words, he wants Ned to run the kingdom while he whores and drinks himself into an early grave. Sure, Robert isn't really a fool, but he seems that way to a lot of people, and some of the most powerful ones in the Seven Kingdoms want to see him go down.
- Robert's rule was only successful because he hand an excellent Hand serving him for the most of it, while he personally did as little ruling as humanly possible. He was a masterful general and a charismatic leader, but in day-to-day governing he was rubbish, and he let power seep through his fingers like a sieve. Hence, he was a fool to anyone who seeks the throne with that power in mind.
- You don't understand Tywin very well. Lannisters don't just pay their debts, they expect debts to be paid back. He doesn't even cancel the debt when Joffrey takes the Throne in the books. And it's not just debt to him, it's to the Faith of the Seven and to the Iron Bank of Braavos. So debts to a religious institution and another country. These become relevant later in the books. Vast debts, it said Littlefinger managed to improve taxation by tenfold over King Aerys' reign, even if this is exaggeration Robert managed to squander vast coffers left to him and constantly outspend an even larger income. Which he spent frivolously, on feasts, tournaments, etc. Not on any positive public works, reforms or improvement. That by itself makes a crappy ruler. But then there's all the other stuff people have mentioned.
- At least in the books it's implied that Littlefinger (the Treasurer) did manage to improve the tax collection but at the same time managed to tie much of the royal income up in shady and complicated investments, where Littlefinger didn't outright embezzle it. Robert may have overspent considerably but Littlefinger manipulated the Kingdom's finances for his own benefit.
- Certainly wouldn't put it past Littlefinger to be running some kind of Ponzi scheme or something. When a person's superpower is that he can always find money in some mysterious way that nobody else understands, it's best to be pretty suspicious.
- Turns out in Season 3 he just borrowed money like a madman. If he had a scheme to pay it back he didn't share it with Tyrion, but considering his speech about Chaos later in the season, he may have been counting on never paying the debt back and redirecting any retaliation against him against whoever's currently sitting on the Iron Throne ("I begged him to pay you back but he wouldn't listen to reason").
- The crown treasury was "over-flowing" when Aerys died, millions in debt under Robert. The small-folk aren't starving, no, but it's been summer for 10 years, which apparently means continual harvests for a decade. At the beginning of winter, which will last almost a decade, nowhere has food to last more than a few years. Where can the food come from, but by being bought from warmer parts? So they would have to go yet further into debt to feed the realm. (All we know of Aerys' crimes are those against nobles...)
- Two important things to remember about Aerys (things that are discussed at more length in the books) are 1. he wasn't crazy or terrible for his whole reign, only the last chunk of it, after his psychosis really set in — he was actually very well-liked before that — and 2. when Aerys started seriously losing his shit, his Hand of the King — a guy named Tywin Lannister, perhaps you've heard of him — stepped up and pretty much started ruling the kingdom in his place (apart from burning people alive, which wasn't his department). Aerys was a terrible king, but Tywin was a damn good Hand, and the realm actually did quite well under him. It was only when Aerys finally ticked off Tywin enough to make him quit as Hand — which was sometime right around the time Rhaegar got married, making it probably only a few years before the Rebellion started — that things really started going down the tubes. So, yes, there were a few chaotic years under Aerys, but for the most part ordinary people didn't fare too badly.
- It was fairly well-known, at least among the nobility, that Robert was not very good at ruling — he would rather eat, drink, and fuck. What has kept everything going well up to now is that Robert knew this, and left the running of the kingdom to those who were better suited for it. And it wasn't just Jon Arryn — he had a good Small Council — Littlefinger, Varys, Renly, and Pycelle. All of them are well known, particularly Littlefinger and Varys, as extremely competent. So everyone knows that Robert isn't running the kingdom.
- Among the nobility, at least. The smallfolk probably don't know or care about this. But they're generally not the ones calling Robert a fool, as pointed out above.
- It should be pointed out that in the series (moreso in the books) there is often a difference between the opinion of the other nobles and the general public. In this instance, House Baratheon as a whole seems to be seen by other houses as blunt and rather unsophisticated by high nobility standards and Robert is the loudest and hammiest of them. It's just we see most throught the eyes of other nobles. Stannis and Renly personalities get also exagerated or downplayed by other nobles, but just like Robert they can be very close to the smallfolk (Stannis is not above promoting someone from Flea Bottom and Renly does know the names of commoners in his army)
Why can't Jaqen kill Tywin?
As far as I remember, Arya didn't ask him to do this in the books (though I could be wrong), but why doesn't he kill him here? He has the skills to kill a man seconds before he reaches his destination in broad daylight without anyone noticing him, so it can't be 'cause he's not good enough.
- He can. It'll just take too long. Jaqen can't teleport, he'd have to catch up with a forced march.
- Arya's problem with Jaqen seemed more of an issue with time than Jaqen not being able to kill Tywin at all. Arya was impatient and wanted Tywin dead "now" as she thought he was marching against Robb. Since it worked the last time with Amory Lorch she figured Jaqen could deliver on it again, but those emergency wolfsbane darts don't come cheap.
Why didn't Sansa go with Sandor?
In the books she's got an escape plan set up with Dontos
. And Sandor tries to rape her before offering to take her to safety. Here...Sandor's a bit creepy. That's about it. Really...I'm scratching my head more as to why they didn't take one scene in any of the previous seven or eight episodes to show Sansa and Dontos
conspiring. Would have been simple, would have taken five minutes of screen time.
- I think she thought Stannis was winning, and in that case she would be in relative safety as his prisoner, rather than on the road in the middle of a warzone with only one guard.
- I think it falls under Adaptation Explanation Extrication. They could've added something with Dontos, or at least maintained some of the creepiness between her and The Hound, which would have been a lot more in keeping with his character.
- In the show The Hound has done nothing but being a pawn of Joffrey and Cersei. He reported Sansa's bleeding and he refused Sansa's attempt to thank him for saving her in their last episode together, saying that he did it only because he likes killing, remember. Now, this same creepy guy shows up one night as the city is under siege by enemy forces and says that he is going to take her home in an awkward way. Can you really blame her for believing that the escape offer was a setup from Joffrey or Cersei to make her look like a traitor?
- As far as Sansa knows, Stannis is about to conquer the city, and she knows that he has a reputation for honor and integrity, and will most likely use her to broker a peace with Robb. Meanwhile, Sandor has done nothing but play up his own repulsiveness to her, even while saving her from danger, gloating how awesome killing people is, and so on. She really has no pressing reason to believe that he won't just rape her and leave her to the wayside somewhere down the line if he gets bored.
- Also, remember. she saw Cersei order Ilyn Payne to execute a couple of servants who were trying to run away from the battle. She might just have been scared — and not too eager to bet her life on a hypothetical "who would win in a fight between the Hound and the King's Justice" kind of scenario.
Why was Tyrion deprived off everything after Blackwater?
I understand that he is no longer Hand of the King, but he hasn't done a bad job and didn't do anything to disgrace himself. I don't see why Tywin
returning suddenly demotes him to broomcloset warmer
. Wouldn't Tywin, who gave him the job in the first place,
take issues with that?
- A simple answer: Tywin probably wouldn't have a problem with it, for the simple reason that he doesn't like Tyrion. Nor does Cersei; she tried to have him killed. Tyrion may have a lot of allies in King's Landing now, but very few of them are in the Red Keep. Perhaps they were secretly hoping he'd die from his wound.
- It's easy to forget that Tywin hates Tyrion.
- While that's true, he obviously recognizes his usefulness, as evidenced by him making Tyrion Hand in the first place (which is a huge responsibility), although he may have done this just to provide a scapegoat on whom to pin Joffrey and Cersei's failures in Tywin's absence. Either way, he's not the type to kill off someone useful just because he doesn't currently have a use for them — that reeks of Cersei. She's been looking for an opportunity to destroy Tyrion for ages.
- While Tyrion was unconscious, others took the credit for his successes.
- Well, let's see what Tyrion did lose. 1) The Hand position already belonged to Tywin, Tyrion was merely acting on his behalf; 2) The Tower of the Hand is to be occupied by Tywin for the same reason — Tywin most likely doesn't care where Tyrion is going to sleep now, and since he is unconscious the only people left to decide where to put him (Cersei, Joffrey, Pycelle, etc) hate him for some reason or another and are petty enough to put him in a servant chamber; 3) Bronn being City Watch commander only benefits Bronn and Tyrion, naming someone more trusted and loyal seems a first step for anyone who takes the Hand spot (and it was in fact what Tyrion himself did when he arrived at KL and got rid of Janos Slynt); 4) the Hill tribes are hard to control and are only loyal to Tyrion too, paying them to leave before they cause trouble is also reasonable; 5) Finally, getting recognition to Tyrion for holding down the fort during the battle a) depends of Joffrey, who is a prick and hates Tyrion; b) implies a recognition that it was Tyrion, and not Joffrey, who was in charge of the city during the battle, and he is not going to do that.
- I imagine Cersei didn't have a lot of good things to say about him to Tywin while he was unconscious. Plus, Tywin basically sees his children in terms of how they can be used, and since he has no love for Tyrion, and Tyrion isn't needed to act as Hand any more, it probably doesn't matter to Tywin what happens to him.
- In the books, it's specified that Cersei stole the credit for the pyromancy stunt that basically won the naval battle. Who knows what else she stole credit for while Tyrion was unconscious for two weeks. I wouldn't be surprised if she passed off all of his good ideas as hers, while blaming her bad ones on him. Not to mention that Tywin seems much more inclined to believe her than he does Tyrion.
- Also, we can see that the first thing Tywin did after finishing up the battle was start giving out political appointments and favors to the people who had helped him in order to ensure their loyalty. Getting rid of Bronn as head of the Gold Cloaks, for example, freed up a juicy position that he could give to someone else. He didn't need to give anything to Tyrion because he knows Tyrion well enough to know that while he might grumble and complain a lot, his loyalty to the family doesn't need to be bought — he'll pretty much do what's expected of him no matter what.
- It's still a bit confusing, though, because they cut out some of Tyrion's actions from the books that made the doghouse he's in at the end of Blackwater a bit more understandable. In the books, when he thought Cersei had Shae, he didn't just threaten her — he threatened Tommen, whom he had "kidnapped" (read: spirited out of the city for his own safety without Cersei's permission, much as he did for Myrcella). He was bluffing to protect Shae — he would never have actually hurt Tommen — but Cersei didn't know that. So, you can imagine that her slightly creative retelling of the story while Tyrion was unconscious didn't leave Tywin particularly pleased with his younger son.
So who burned Winterfell?
So Theon makes his speech, Dagmar knocks him out with the intention of giving him to the Northmen and stabs Luwin when he protests.
So far, so good. And then...we cut to Bran and the others emerging to a Winterfell that's been burned to the ground, with everyone dead. So who did it? Did the Ironborn torch the place out of spite? Or was it the Northern army who managed to get in? And if so, why would they
burn it? And why does no one seem the least bit curious? From the books...
- Presumably it's left as a cliffhanger to be answered in the third season. I assumed that the Ironborn had razed the place down to cover their escape, but apparently I was wrong. Either way, the creators seem to want a lot of questions to be dealt with in the following season to keep the audience interested.
- I thought it was fairly obvious that it was the Bastard of Bolton who did it, because, I mean, come on. He's Roose Bolton's bastard.
- It's only obvious to people who've read the books. The series has only hinted at Roose Bolton's cruelty, and hasn't shown any sign of his disloyalty.
- Incidentally, what confuses me about the matter the most is just why didn't the Boltons occupy Winterfell? It's the most important fortress in the North. Leaving it standing alone with gates open is like an invitation for some bandits to squat in, and make themselves an enormous pain to remove.
- Because then it would be flagrantly obvious they'd switched sides?
- No it wouldn't. They were sent to occupy Winterfell. That was their purpose of returning to North: restoring the most important fortress into region back to Stark control. Being Stark bannermen, it would be their duty to occupy and secure the place for their liege lord.
- But if they were betraying the Starks (as they clearly were), occupying it means they would have to give it back to Robb when he returned. As it stands now, the most important fort in the north is the Dreadfort. The Starks' power is severely hampered and they get to blame the Ironborn for the whole thing.
- Up until anyone else decides to waltz in to Winterfell and set up a garrison there. It's the most important fortress in the North. It's hard to imagine that anyone would leave it empty for long, and if they did, someone else would claim it.
- It's burnt. The smallfolk are gone or dead, the fields have already been harvested and the food stolen or destroyed. Any random person that tried to claim it would be starved out because ... wait for it... winter is coming.
- Actually, in A Dance with Dragons Roose Bolton occupies Winterfell, and starts rebuilding it. And, even burnt down, the fortress is still very much functional against Stannis's attacks. The destruction of the place was probably not on Bolton's plans, but rather a result of Ramsay's sociopathic nature.
- In ADWD the Starks are completely broken and the only one that the world at large thinks is alive is Arya. When the Boltons burned it, Robb was still alive (the Red Wedding doesn't occur until the next book). So the situation had changed to the point where it now made sense to rebuild Winterfell. Further, the host that occupies it has to bring their own food in with them — something random bandits wouldn't be able to accomplish. Even so, Stannis' host wasn't so much stalled by Winterfell as by the massive snowstorm that buried his army and cut off his supplies.
- It's one thing to not explain why the castle is burned to create a cliffhanger. But it gets ridiculous if you consider it from Maester Luwin's perspective. If he knows that Ramsay betrayed the Starks, shouldn't he maybe tell at least Osha? Otherwise Bran and the others will just assume that Dreadfort men are their allies (they had been up to this point, and there was no reason to assume different), and maybe reveal themselves if they encounter them. And if Luwin didn't know, why did he tell them to head north? Shouldn't he tell them to just look for the army his brother sent to take back Winterfell?
- Maybe he didn't know. He had a spear put through him. He might have just been unconscious through the sack and levered himself to the Godswood afterwards.
- Or he went straight to the Godswood to die after taking a spear to the gut, rather than pointlessly standing in the castle to watch who put the torch on it.
- It isn't made explicit in the show, but in the books it is made clear that even if they're allied together, the Starks do not trust the Boltons as far as they can throw them, and Ramsay is well known for his...evilness in the north. They should have done a better job explaining it, but even if Luwin didn't know the Boltons burned Winterfell, he has plenty of reason to advise the boys from going into Bolton hands.
- He has reason to warn against them away from the Boltons, but it would have been confusing to the viewer. We've only heard of Ramsay Bolton mentioned as "my bastard" by Roose Bolton, so introducing him so late in the season would have been shaky at best. Much better to introduce him in the third season with Theon, when we can pick up the plotline of the Boltons' betrayal.
Couldn't Joffrey marry both Sansa and Margery?
- I remember watching the 1st season Blue-ray extras about Aegon the Conqueror, the King who conquer the Seven Kingdoms, married both his sisters. So i found it strange that Joffrey didn't marry both Sansa and Margery and had to break off his engagement with the former to marry the latter since he is (not really) a Baratheon, who are distant relatives of the Targaryens. I find it weird the Lannisters would dismiss Sansa since they need her to have a legitimate claim to the North.
- The fact that Rhaegar felt the need to abduct Lyanna implies that practice has been discontinued for a while. Plus, marrying multiple daughters of great houses would devalue the political strength of the union, and create a Succcession Crisis over whose children are senior (the children of the first wife? the oldest child?) — in fact, it would probably be easier if they were both your sisters. The Lannisters want the Tyrells' absolute backing, they can't afford to offend them.
- Marrying more than one woman is a foreign custom that the Targaryens brought to Westeros from Valyria. It wasn't something that was considered normal in the Seven Kingdoms, and since Joffrey's presumed father overthrew the Targaryen dynasty, it would be very bad form of him to start following their traditions. It would make him seem like a poser, a would-be Targaryen, and turn everybody who hated them against him. It's unlikely that even Joffrey has any good opinions of the Targaryens, in any case.
- In the books, he cites one of the Targaryen kings as being able to have any woman he wanted whenever he commanded it (a bit like Caligula) and pretty much states his love for polygamy to all present and demands that he be given the opportunity to rape Sansa, so depending on whether the series will depict this scene, he'll likely consider doing this sort of thing when he gets even more self-entitled. Also, he seems to respect (as capable he would be of respect) the Targaryens quite a bit for their conquering of Westeros. Being a Boisterous Weakling and having to live up to the reputation of Robert, it's unsurprising he would see them as Worthy Opponents.
- I don't think that Cersei ever really intended for Joffrey to marry Sansa after she was deemed a traitor's daughter. The keeping of the engagement seemed like merely a way to keep her as a hostage until a more advantageous match could be made, and it would probably be disreputable for a daughter of a traitor to become queen. More humiliating for Joffrey to keep her as his prisoner and he can basically do whatever he wants with her.
- Also, as we are going to see firsthand next season, one of the advantages of having Sansa be betrothed to Joffrey is that she couldn't seriously consider an offer of marriage from anyone else. Considering that as far as anyone knows, she's next in line to inherit Winterfell after Robb (who is fighting a very dangerous war and could be killed at any moment), she would pretty much be neck-deep in offers otherwise — and since divorce is almost impossible in this society, if she managed to sneak off and marry someone, there would be no way to undo it short of killing her husband or sending him to the Wall (which, depending on how powerful his family was, might well not have been options). We'll find out next season that once her betrothal to Joffrey ends, Tywin Lannister's first order of business is to figure out how to get her married to a Lannister — ANY Lannister at all — as soon as possible to keep her claim to Winterfell from going to someone outside the family. And even then, he barely manages to do it in time.
Why does Balon call them Longships?
The Ironborn ships we see when Theon meets his crew look nothing like longships.
- Because that's the in-universe name for them.
- He's really calling longships something that aren't longships? To think, he could call them galleons or something. Bah. It would be so much cooler if they actually were longships. Hell, that's what the ships are; galleys.
- The Ironmen are pirates. They steal ships. Maybe the elite core of their navy consists of actual purpose-built longships, or maybe they're just used to referring to warships as "longships", but either way, Theon hasn't got a top-of-the-line ship, he's got some junky stolen galleon and a crew scraped from the bottom of the barrel. Maybe they don't even have any actual longships left now their power's waned so much, but Balon's pride refuses to let him admit this fact.
- And while we're on the subject of Ironborn, why hasn't Victarion been mentioned in any of their damn scenes? Especially while Balon goes over his strategy with his kids. One would suspect that given Victarion is not only the supreme commander of the Ironborn navy and their absolute best fighter, he would have been included in their raiding. Something like Balon pointing to Moat Cailan and saying; 'yes, and your uncle will take X number of longgalleys and destroy the fortress of Moat Cailan so as to lessen potential resistance of the mainland to our raiders' or something to that effect. Yes, I know that he's not cast yet, yes I know that they condensed the whole Ironbon efforts against the North to an unseen attack on Torrhen's Square and Theon cutting off Rodrik's head; but still, he's a relatively important character in the series and arguably one of the main protagonists in the Ironborn storyline.
- Rewatch that scene. Balon comes to tell Yara and Theon what he has already decided and discussed with whatever men he has. He says the main attack will be on Moat Cailin — he just doesn't say who will command it, but since it won't be either Yara or Theon it's probably unnecessary. He then orders Yara to take 30 "longships" to take Deepwood Motte and Theon to take one "ship" to raid the Stoney Shore. So yeah, the Ironborn have longships, it's just that Balon doesn't trust Theon with one.
- Gives them room to write Victarion into or out of a future season.
- Yea, they waited until Season 3 to write in the Blackfish and Edmure, who haven't been mentioned at all up until now. So whether or not he'll feature is up in the air.
- I'd also like to point out that in the books, the Sea-Bitch was a brand new vassal built by a guy called Sigrid, and Yara/Asha fondled Theon by pretending to be his wife. So it probably was supposed to be a longship.
- It's a lot easier for a film crew to get hold of a medieval-looking sailing ship than it is to find a galley. I think there's one in Greece, and that's it. Besides, you'd have to pay the wages of all those oarsmen. Even a CGI sailing ship would look more realistic than trying to simulate all those oars dipping in and out of the water.
Why doesn't Pyat Pree just ask to travel with Daenerys and her dragons instead of trying to capture her?
The main motivation Pyat Pree gives for stealing the dragons and holding Dany is that his magic is strongest in the presence of the dragons and they are strongest in the presence of their mother. Instead of conspiring with Xaro, wouldn't it be more sensible to just ask to travel with her. He's capable of performing pretty good magic
if not really good magic
so he'd be useful to Dany and he could probably even get away with asking for one of the offspring if Rhaegal turns out to be female. Being able to use his magic out in the open and in the middle of a war also seems like a better situation than having to stay in the House of the Undying to get the most out of his magic.
- Personally, I don't think Pree would want to risk his neck by going along with Dany; he's got magic, sure, but he's not exactly a combat expert, nor is there any indication that he prefers using his powers on the battlefield to researching them in the comfort of his own home. Plus, even if he did decide to send one of his self-duplicating duplicates to guard Dany, he wouldn't want to risk seeing the foundation of his newfound power source getting killed in her attempt to claim the throne of a kingdom consumed by civil war; even if he just had a bunch of his clones surround Dany at all times, there are still hazards that they wouldn't be able to protect her from — ie, arrows. Finally, by keeping Dany and her dragons captive, he not only keeps them safe from anything that could endanger his powerbase, but he ensures that he gets all the Dragon offspring produced — not just one- meaning Pyat Pree has the monopoly on supernatural power, and Qarth has its own flying artillery unit.
- Pree has no reason to leave the city. It's a rich city that occupies an important location and he's just finished a coup that leaves him as one of the two powers left in it. Who would want to trade that for an uncertain, uncomfortable and physically dangerous war just to put some teenage girl on a throne?
Why are the horn blasts counterproductive?
Why is it one blast to say that you're returning, two for Wildlings and three for wights? Why not have it reversed so that if you see a group of enemies approaching you can quickly warn allies without the risk of being killed before you can make the second blow?
Who do the Greyjoys normally swear fealty to?
They're situated neatly between the North and the Riverlands, and once had conquered the Riverlands, so who is it they're expected to be loyal to, or are they considered a separate Great House with their own bannermen and such (presumably scattered amongst the Iron Islands)? And if they are vassals of either Starks or Tullys, why is no one suspicious that they've not declared a side?
- The Iron Islands are indeed one of the Seven Kingdoms. While nominally loyal to the Iron Throne (when not rebelling, that is!), they are as self-governing as any other kingdom of Westeros.
- How would the proposed alliance with the Greyjoys have worked then? Robb offers their independence in exchange for the alliance, something that he doesn't have to give them. Wouldn't allying with Balon effectively "up the ante" and completely change the face of the war? In order to secure Northern independence, all Robb has to do is defend the Riverlands from the Lannisters and their allies, occasionally taking offensive actions in the Westerlands to fatigue their enemy. If they add an independent Iron Islands to their terms then they have to turn the war into one of conquest in order to convince the Lannisters to agree to their terms because Robb couldn't otherwise guarantee independence for the Ironmen.
- Robb et al weren't just fighting for northern independence, they were fighting to depose the Lannisters from the Iron Throne too. Partly for vengeance (Ned), and partly because Joffrey is essentially Mad King 2.0. Even Robb says he wasn't sure who he'd install as ruler. "First we have to win the war."
- In this case, "give them their independence" translates to "not oppose their independence," as they had as recently as just over a decade ago. Robb is foreseeing a scenario where his side takes King's Landing and then is free to carve up the Seven Kingdoms like a birthday cake. The Kingdom of the North and the Iron Islands would then be separate territories ruled by different kings, and if Balon wanted to press his war with Casterly Rock, say, the North can say "well that doesn't involve us!" The proposed alliance certainly does complicate the picture, but if things had gone as planned and Balon committed his navy to besieging Lannister ports, it probably would have been well worth it. But as we know, Robb often failed to think about the long term.
- I was never really clear on that, because if the Iron Isles are one of the Seven Kingdoms that make up the land ruled by the Iron Throne, what are the other six? I was under the impression that the Seven Kingdoms were Dorne, the Reach, the Stormlands, the Westerlands, the Riverlands, the Vale, and the North. If the Iron Isles are actually one of the Seven Kingdoms, which of the others aren't? Or, is the phrase Seven Kingdoms a holdover from the time before Dorne was under the Iron Throne?
- The Seven Kingdoms are the Iron Islands, the Stormlands, the Westerlands, the North, the Reach, the Vale and Dorne. The Riverlands had been conquered by the Iron Islands at the time Aegon the Conqueror invaded the Seven Kingdoms. Harrenhal was actually built by the then-king of the Irons Islands before he was roasted within.
- This is referenced in Season 1 where Robert recounts, "In my day you weren't a man until you'd fucked one girl from each of the Seven Kingdoms and the Riverlands. We used to call it 'making the eight'!"
- As far as This Troper understanding goes, the Seven Kingdoms are the Stormlands of House Baratheon, the Westerlands of House Lannister, the North of House Stark, the Reach of House Tyrell, the Vale of House Arryn, the Riverlands of House Tully and Dorne of House Martell which has yet to appear in the show's continuity. The Iron Islands are not a kingdom and they are supposed to be bannermen for House Stark. But both because their culture is very idiosincratic and because they are so far away from Winterfeel, to say that they swear loyalty to the Starks is ummm, yeah, no. That's why they tried to rebel and become and independant kingdom (which they pretty much already functioned as) which went as well as we all know.
- The Iron Islands are one of the Seven Kingdoms (the Riverlands are not). They are not Stark bannermen. This is not obscure information. Consult the extras of the Season 1 boxed set if you don't believe me.
- Or, you know, read the books. It's pretty clear that the Iron Islands swear fealty directly to the Iron Throne. Plus, "the Seven Kingdoms" is an expression that refers to the original seven kingdoms that existed in Westeros (and had existed by millenia) by the time of Aegon's Landing. The six kingdoms Aegon conquered (Iron Islands, North, Westerlands, Stormlands, Reach and the Vale) plus Dorne (that later joined in by marriage pact). The Riverlands don't count because it belonged to the Iron Islanders. Neither do the Crownlands that only refer to the region now occupied by the Houses that directly swore fealty to the Targaryen (most of which were the original men belonging to when he first came to Westeros), carved out of the Stormlands (and maybe a small piece of the Reach).
- When Aegon Targaryan invaded the Seven Kingdoms there was the Kingdom of the Vale, ruled by House Arryn, The Kingdom of the West, ruled by House Lannister, the Kingdom of the North ruled by House Stark and the Princedom of Dorne ruled by the Martells, all current lords. However the other three Kingdoms were the Kingdom of the Stormlands, ruled by House Durrendon (whom Orys Baratheon married into and adopted their sigil and words), the Kingdom of Isles and Rivers ruled by House Hoare and the Kingdom of the Reach, ruled by House Gardner. The Tullys were made Lord's of the Riverlands and the Greyjoys Lords of the Iron Islands once Aegon had defeated Harren Hoare, the builder of Harrenhal. The Gardners were killed on the field of fire, so the Tyrells who were mere stewards of Highgarden were raised to Lords of the Reach because they were fast enough to surrender.
- There's technically nine kingdoms. The Reach. Dorne. Stormlands. Riverlands. North. The Vale. The West. The Iron Islands and the Crownlands (King's Landing and surrounding lands, Dragonstone and neighboring islands). They call it the Seven Kingdoms because there was Seven Kingdoms when Aegon invaded (the Iron Islands ruling the Riverlands from Harrenhal, King's Landing not built yet) and because seven is a holy number in their religion.
- It may be more useful to think of these as administrative regions than kingdoms, since some, like Dragonstone, were never ruled by an independent king (Stannis figuring himself to be king of all Westeros, not Dragonstone).
- Dragonstone is part of the Crownlands, i.e. the independent holdings of the crown (the Targaryens traditionally granted it to the King's heir apparent). It was probably part of the Stormlands before Aegon came; the borders were more fluid when the kingdoms were independent, as they used to fight over territory. But yes, Westeros is split between nine Great Houses; "the Seven Kingdoms" is an Artifact Title referring to the state Aegon I found it in (as should be obvious from the fact that they aren't even kingdoms anymore).
- Dragonstone was the Targaryen seat before the fall of Valyria and the invasion of Westeros. It was a distant Valyrian hold administrated by the Targaryen noble house.
Melisandre not warning Stannis.
She can see into the future and assures Stannis that she saw his victory. The book, however, suggests that she can see multiple futures and some aren't mutually exclusive. She apparently foresaw Matthos' death by fire and she knows that the ship he crews belongs to Davos, the man leading Stannis' fleet. She never thought to warn Stannis of it? She in fact goes out of her way to be cryptic when asked?
- Melisandre isn't as good at interpreting her visions as she believes she is. This coupled with her faith in Stannis as a champion of R'hllor makes her dismiss the idea that he could fail. She didn't warn anyone of Matthos' death because she believed it was the will of the Lord of Light.
- Another possibility (the one Davos believes) is that Melisandre didn't warn Stannis so his massive army and navy would be smashed, and he'd be forced to rely on her even more as the most powerful force at his disposal. However the novel implies that Melisandre simply misunderstood what she saw in the flames — if Stannis went to King's Landing as he originally planned, Renly would smash his forces. If he went to Storm's End to confront Renly, he would prevail. Rather than alternative possibilities however, both visions turned out to be true, with the Renly who crushes him at King's Landing being an El Cid Ploy.
Davos' son's prayers.
Davos' son uses the fact that his father always returned when he prayed as evidence for his god. But in the days when Davos would have been at risk of dying at sea, wouldn't the religion of the area have still been worshiping the Seven, the very gods they just decried as false?
- The exact amount of time between Melisandre showing up at Dragonstone and the events of the war is a little murky at best. The book implies that it's been a while, since Stannis' wife and a few nobles and their men have converted to the religion before Stannis has apparently given it any thought. Matthos might be conflating things a bit to try and persuade his father, depending on how old he's supposed to be, though he states he lit a candle to pray, which is a part of prayer to the Seven. It might be that in his mind the Lord of Light is the only true god, so even if he was praying to the Seven he has now decided that it was the Lord of Light that was answering his prayers. Note that Melisandre's attitude is that the Lord of Light is the only god, as opposed to some Westerosi who seem to acknowledge at least the possibility of there being multiple gods (the Old Gods and the Seven, as the primary example). If she was teaching that interpretation of her religion, Melisandre might have assured her potential converts that the Lord of Light was listening to their prayers even if they were to the Seven — which isn't so different from what real life missionaries have done.
- Also, the sea around the Stormlands is very dangerous, so Davos could have been in danger of being lost at sea as little as a week prior.
Why didn't Sansa take Tyrion's offer?
In Garden of Bones after Tyrion saves Sansa from Joffrey's cruelty he asks her if she still wants to continue her engagement to the little turd but Sansa shoots him down. Why? She's obviously miserable and Tyrion seemed about to tell her a way to escape King's Landing and go home. Why didn't she take the chance right there?
- Why should she believe Tyrion is any better than Joffrey? She, unlike us, has scant evidence to the contrary. Indeed, if she had heard the story of Tyrion's capture by her mother, she would have twice as much reason not to trust him.
- It may not be as obvious in the show because of Peter Dinklage's performance of a lovable rogue and the rather positive chemistry between Tyrion and Sansa on-screen, but in the book Sansa isn't too fond of the dwarf. It's actually pointed out several times that despite his genuine attempts to get on her good side, she doesn't trust him because he's a Lannister.
- She's had to pretend to be in love with Joffrey, even to people who know she isn't, such as Cersei, The Hound, and Joffrey himself, because she doesn't know what's going to next get her hit, or even killed. She hasn't been able to trust anyone, partly for the sake of her own safety, but also because literally every single person she's ever trusted has either betrayed her, died, or been separated from her. She's lost the ability to trust, or at least to trust readily. One act of kindness on Tyrion's part isn't going to suddenly change that.
- She also had no way to know exactly what Tyrion was going to tell her. He may have tried to help arrange an end to her marriage, or he might have just laughed in her face. Remember that to the public Tyrion is the "demon monkey" that's pulling the king's strings and is singly responsible for the common people's plight during the war.
- And then there's just the idea of not giving any of the people watching the satisfaction of admitting she's afraid of Joffrey. Tyrion's question really does seem more like a courtesy than a real offer — even if she chose to trust him, he doesn't have the power to release her against the king's wishes, and would be executed if he tried. In Sansa's eyes, the little protection that Tyrion could offer might just not be worth the extra humiliation of asking him for it, especially after what she's just been through.
- Indeed. It wasn't an offer, it was a question. A potentially dangerous question.
Isn't Osha a slave?
From Ser Jorah's backstory, we learn that slavery is illegal in Westeros. But then we see the Starks, the very family who banished Ser Jorah for slavery, capturing Osha and having her serve them in Winterfell in chains
. What is she if not a slave?
- A prisoner on a "work-release program". The idea being that after a period of service, she would no longer be a prisoner, and be allowed to go on her way(so long as she didn't commit any further crimes). Keep in mind that the punishment for her crime was death. That she volunteered for the duty, so she could live, would imply that it isn't exactly slavery... Also, Ser Jorah wasn't banished. He exiled himself (because the punishment would have been death or serving on the Wall). And he wasn't going to be punished for holding slaves... It would have been for selling slaves.
- Same reason it's legal to send prisoners out to break rocks on chain gangs in the modern-day US, really.
- Quite: there's a distinction between slavery and indentured labor. We can reasonably assume that the law in Westeros (or the morality of the Starks, whichever is in play) allows for the latter.
- One important difference being the difference between prisoners and property. Prisoners (and, in the Ironborn parlance, thralls and salt wives) are prisoners, but slaves are property. Prisoners aren't bought and sold — they're ransomed sometimes, but they're not passed around from owner to owner like farm animals. If they have kids, the kids are born free. If slaves have kids (and some deeply ominous comments at a slave auction we see later in the books suggests slaves are actively bred), their kids are slaves, too.
- Thralls and salt wives aren't exactly slaves — while they are denied their freedom, they are not considered to be property (ie, an Ironborn cannot sell his thralls to another), and all of their children are born free.
Why does Stannis believe in the Lord of Light?
He generally seems like quite a sensible chap, what's with the dotty religious conversion? (And given that he doesn't get on with his wife, how did she talk him into it?)
- Selyse isn't very persuasive, but Melisandre is. And the whole "mysterious and deadly powers" shtick she's got going on. From the books...
- That religious conversion is less dotty when you consider that Melisandre has true magical powers that she has repeatedly demonstrated. A "sensible chap" like Stannis wouldn't want to leave such a resource unused — or turned against him.
- Stannis himself explains it in the episode "Second Sons", telling Davos that he didn't truly believe, but once he witnessed her powers for himself, he finds it hard to deny that the Lord of Light is the true god.
Is Bran's revival related to Lady's death?
- S 1 Ep 2 "The Kingsroad" — In the final scenes of this episode, it shows alternating cuts of the comatose Bran sleeping on his bed, and Ned holding Lady right before he kills her. Then, the second Ned stabs Lady in the heart it cuts to Bran opening his eyes. Now, in the bookshe shows a very strong spiritual connection to animals and expresses a lot of changeling qualities, but I don't think GRRM ever made a connection between Lady and him. Funny editing, or is the show going another direction?
- Well, the wolves seem to have a spiritual connection to each other, as well as to their humans, so Bran might have picked up the shock of Lady's death via Summer. But really, I think it was just a bit of Birth/Death Juxtaposition.
- I thought that as well, except Summer himself doesn't react.
This may have been explained in the books, but since I haven't read them yet, I have no idea. What do kids of Happily Married
Northern bastards get called? So the Northern bastards get the surname Snow, but what happens if they get married and have legitimate children? Do they keep the bastard surname, or does it get changed?
- Other noble bastards in the past have sometimes given themselves original surnames (the Blackfyres were descended from a Targaryen bastard whose father left him his sword Blackfyre). But it seems fairly common for bastards' trueborn children to inherit their father's name, which does seem strange — you'd think they of all people would want to spare their children from being wrongly assumed to be bastards. You'd especially think that those born to noble mothers would at least take their mother's name.
- They add a bit to their surname. Like Waters becomes Longwaters.
- Also, remember that at this point in history (well, at the point in history that this series references) only nobles and other important people HAD last names. Everybody else was either just Fred or Fred, Son of Bob or Fred of Pittsburgh or Fred the Nickname. So, since being a bastard meant you weren't noble, it technically wasn't possible for you to have kids who had a real claim to a last name, even if those kids were legitimate in the sense that you married your spouse. Of course, if your kids managed to become important or famous, they'd find a way to work around that rule, most likely by inventing a name.
- Indeed, carrying a bastard surname is shameful when surrounded by nobles, but when surrounded by commoners, who have no surnames, it is a matter of pride. It means you are of noble blood after all, even though illegitimate, and that alone places you above most people.
- Correct. Because it's only bastards with at least one known noble parent who have these bastard surnames. Bastard commoners have only one name, like all commoners. Gendry is just Gendry, for example, since his relation to King Robert isn't generally known.
The not-rotted bodies...
Okay, so the bodies the Night Watch bring in from beyond the Wall haven't rotted, so Samwell correctly
assumes foul play. Do these men not understand the concept of freezing things to keep them from rotting? Especially in an area so far removed from civilization, you'd think they would freeze their meat to keep it fresh. Or do they just think that it doesn't apply to humans?
- In the novel, it's clearer that bodies do not rot even when they're removed from the ice.
- The Wall Weeps, it's not Winter yet and the bodies were in the open. They also do store meat in the Wall.
- Just because it's cold up there north of the Wall doesn't mean it's cold enough to preserve a body indefinitely. The cold would reduce the rot but the body should still smell.
Jorah doesn't believe in dragons?
When they're going to the market in Vaes Dothrak, Daenerys says something about how useful dragons would be to conquer Westeros, and Jorah gets all dismissive, saying he only believes what his own eyes tell him, that who knows what really happened hundreds of years ago etc, all seeming to imply that he doesn't believe the dragons ever actually existed. This is crazy, though! There were a load of dragon skulls on prominent display in King's Landing until relatively recently (seemingly within Jorah's lifetime), they aren't there anymore but plenty of people still alive must have seen them. does he think the skulls were all fake or something, along with Daenerys's eggs? Not to mention that the Targaeryan dragons only died out a century or two before, not as long ago as the White Walkers or anything. It's like someone in the real, modern world not believing in dodos or the Aztecs or something.
- Well in fairness to Jorah, actually making fake dragon bones and putting them on display isn't entirely out of the realm of possibility. We are talking about a dynasty with a known history of insanity after all. But I don't think that speech was meant to imply that Jorah literally doesn't believe in dragons. I think it was more a way of illustrating his cynical attitude toward those in power. The Targaryens have been using their connection with dragons to justify their right to rule, even long after all the dragons have died out. So Jorah is really pointing out that all the bluff and bluster about dragons is really just hot air. Power comes at the tip of a sword, not from old tales of past glory.
- It's possible Jorah never actually saw the dragon bones — I don't think it's been confirmed whether or not he'd been to King's Landing before Robert took the throne.
- I think the point he was making was that while it would be nice to have dragons to reclaim the throne, the dragons are dead (if they existed at all, since they died many years before he lived) and they won't be getting help from anything they don't have.
Sleeping in the Sky Cells?
If you were thrown into the Sky Cells, couldn't you just turn perpendicular to the slope? Tyrion sleeps parallel to it, so he rolls down it, but hypothetically, turning 90 degrees would allow you to prevent (at least some) of the sliding. How come no one does that?
- You don't know he lay down parallel, he could have rolled around in his sleep. You ever woken up with your head hanging off the side of the bed? Depending on the layout of the room, huddling in the corner would probably be safest.
- You also have to remember the temperature. With no protection from the wind a Sky Cell would be unbearably cold, and your instinct would be to curl up to conserve body heat.
- Also, people can move around a lot in their sleep. Can't tell you how many times I've gone to sleep in a perfectly normal position and then woken up in the morning having turned completely around somehow in the night.
- No one does that because turning perpendicular means dangling bits of yourself off the edge, even if you're Tyrion's height.
Littlefinger and the Power of Teleportation
In the second season, Littlefinger bounces around the Seven Kingdoms like he's got a private jet or something. From episode to episode he goes from the Crownlands (King's Landing) to the Stormlands to see Cat, then heads to Highgarden with Margaery and Loras Tyrell, then shows up at Harrenhal to chat with Tywin Lannister, and finally circles back to King's Landing. Any one of these trips would take days if not weeks with the travel options of the setting, yet he makes all of them in a matter of a few days. There's no justification given for it, and most of these scenes were added for the show and not in the books (in A Clash of Kings
, Littlefinger only goes to the Reach to forge the Tyrell alliance). So how's he doing it?
- Time Compression; each season takes place over a much longer period than what is implied (for instance Gendry says that Ned Stark came to see him a few weeks before his execution, whereas the show it seems like a much shorter time frame, and Daenerys gets pregnant and gets very close to delivering throughout the first season, so probably around eight months passes from the start to the end). So these travels are taking weeks, but since nothing of note happens during them we skip it. There's really no evidence to that Season 2 happens over the course of several days, and from the time that Littlefinger leaves on his trip the events of the plot are clearly taking place over a much longer time frame (such as King's Landing being made ready for battle, Robb Stark's battles in the north, Daenerys in Quarth trying to get ships, etc.).
- The book Game of Thrones takes place well over a year; when Tyrion first sleeps with Shae, his narration mentions that he hasn't been with a woman in over a year at that point, since the last time he was at Winterfell(on his way back down south from the Wall). Most of that time was spent in transit(from Winterfell to the Riverlands, from the Riverlands to the Vale, to the Vale back to the Riverlands) or in a sky cell. Assuming this carries over to the show, we're saying a year's passed just between S 1 E 4 ("Cripples, Bastards, and Broken Things") and S 1 E 9("Baelor")).
- Alternatively, he has a hot air balloon drawn by hundreds of Instant Messenger Ravens.
- He's a Time Lord. Duh.
Jaqen H'ghar, Not So Tough?
Forgive me if this was explained in the books but I just don't have the time to read them. If Jaqen H'ghar is such an incredible badass, how did he get locked up in the King's Landing dungeons in the first place?
- The books don't explain specifically why he was in the dungeons, but we do learn plenty about the organization he works for. Suffice it to say, it's very unlikely he was there unwillingly. It was probably part of a mission. It's also possible that he ended up there accidentally but needed to go along with it not to blow his cover. There's also a religious dimension to being a Faceless Man. They are not allowed to make independent decisions about who they kill, so Jaqen may have needed to sit tight for that reason.
What is the point of Xaro's empty vault?
At first I thought the intended point is that all his power and prestige is all based on charismatic deception, an elaborate con job if you will. But he also has a massive palace full of gold, gems, gold statues studded with gems, expensive clothes, valuable pieces of art, and so on. So isn't the empty vault kind of...pointless? He's not actually a pauper pretending to be a rich man (at least, he isn't anymore), he just doesn't bother putting any of his expensive property in his big fancy vault. Why is the vault there if he's not going to use it for anything?
- All the money he actually has is spent to keep up the pretense that he's unimaginably wealthy. He can buy a ship on credit because everyone "knows" he's got endless reserves of money, sell it to someone else and keep the profit, but he wouldn't be able to do that if people knew he was only a moderately wealthy trader. They look at the lifestyle and assume he's a millionaire, because in their minds only someone with a lot of security would throw money around like that.
- But if he's actually making profit through this scheme, why doesn't he set aside small portions of it from each transaction and put it away in his vault? Then eventually he would've been actually wealthy, instead of just pretending.
- I suppose the point they're exaggerating for emphasis is that there's no effective difference between being wealthy and everyone thinking you're wealthy. (Or for a more Watsonian answer, if he's got any sense, any money he is keeping aside is probably in a less-conspicuous vault...)
- It's not the same but there is an episode (or was it the movie?) of Richie Rich where thiefs finally kidnap the family and open their vault, which they expect to be full of riches, only to find it empty. Richie's father points then that the vault is for show and the money is all in investments, stocks, real state, etc. As it turns out, keeping money locked in your house is actually the least rentable thing you can do with it.
- Except those things are a product of more modern economies. In earlier times the banking and investment system as we understand them didn't exist, so locking away your riches in a vault was one of the only ways wealthy people had to store their wealth.
- Not really. That might have been true on Westeros, a feudal society (and even later feudal societies had moneylenders and banks), but Essos (the continent where Qarth is) is actually a proto-capitalist society (akin to Genova and Venice when these were City States) so the notion of investments, stocks, real state, etc as sources of income are not foreign for them, from a storycal standpoint.
- It has a lot of points, really. One of them was already noted: It puts a specific example to the "king, priest, rich man, and sellsword" parable from earlier in the season. It also further demonstrates that Daenyrs is in a whole new world. With the Dothraki, everything is open. The best riders get respect, the best fighters get to lead, people have sex in front of everyone, etc. But Qarth is based on lies, ans Westeros is no different, so it's showing that she's growing enough to play the Game.
- The same reason that Blackadder in Blackadder II pretends that the thousand pounds he's carrying is "Just something I had in my tights" when in fact it's all he owns. His (supposed) fantastic wealth has earned him a place on the Council of Thirteen when he started with nothing. It may all be a bluff, but it did (briefly!) make him King of Qarth.
The Hound doesn't take compliments well
In Blackwater, why is Sandor so hostile to Bronn when they meet in the bar? As I recall this scene was the first time they ever spoke to each other, and Bronn was nothing but polite. He greeted Sandor and his companion cheerfully, offered to buy them drinks, etc. But for some reason the Hound automatically tries to pick a fight. Why?
- Because the Hound is a jerk. He always reacts in a bad way to compliments and thanks, be it from Bronn, Tyrion, Sansa or even Joffrey. Perhaps, as a result of growing up deformed, he assumes uncounsciously that he is being mocked whenever people are nice to him. Or maybe he decided a long time ago that reputation trumps personal happiness and he chooses to be grumpy and feared to appearing nice and looking weak as a result.
- As the Hound indicated in the comments he made to the prostitute that Bronn was with, part of it is that he really doesn't like how Bronn passes himself off as a Lovable Rogue, whereas in actuality, Bronn, like the Hound, is a cold-blooded murderer. The Hound is really big on At Least I Admit It and hates how knights/soldiers cover up what they are. It stems from a combination of the fact that Sandor's brother, Gregor, is a knight in good standing despite being a completely horrible person and the fact that Sandor's looks make him appear Obviously Evil when equally bad or worse people (i.e. Bronn) can hide what they are.
- The Hound has expressed on numerous occasions that he considers killing to be a glorious thing — and it's sometimes implied it's the only joy he gets in life. So while everyone else in the brothel is seeking "Wine, women and song" he is seeking his pre-battle release in killing somebody. Why he goes after Bronn is another question (maybe he likes a challenge?)
Sansa's choice in escape partners...
...is terrible. The Hound, who, despite being gruff, has rescued her, promised to protect her, and been generally kind to her, is one of the strongest, best swordsmen in the realm. He offers to help her escape. She turns him down. Then, Littlefinger shows up. Whether or not she is aware of his involvement in her father's death, he's done basically nothing but creep on her. He offers to help her escape, and she asks him what she needs to do. How does this make sense? In the books, of course, it did — the Hound was much more overtly creepy with her, and she had no idea Baelish was the one helping her escape — but what is going on in the show? Adaptation Explanation Extrication
? Some hidden motive? Something I'm missing? Or are they trying to make Sansa really, really stupid in this version?
- For one thing, the Hound vs. Littlefinger was never the dilemma. It was the Hound vs. stay put and hope to be rescued by Stannis's forces, and at the time, that seemed to be the safer choice.
- "And generally being kind to her". That's your problem, Hound fans. You should forget what you saw of the Hound in the books and consider the show events from Sansa's POV only when you want to understand her actions in the show. The show's Hound was a big jerk to Sansa plenty of times and the man that imprisoned her under orders of the Queen back in S1 in particular. Then, come the Battle of Blackwater, Sansa sees Cersei (who tried to have Sansa incriminate herself to have an excuse to punish her during the dinner with Tommen and Myrcella and during the battle itself when she asked if Sansa prayed for Joffrey and Cersei) happily ordering the deaths of commoners who tried to flee the city; then minutes later she receives the Hound's visit, who for all she knows is the Lannisters go-to man, and he offers to take her to Winterfell. Why should she trust him? And even if she did, why should she bet her life on one man taking her out of a city filled with guards looking for enemies everywhere and then through a war zone until reaching her home half a continent away, on foot and with no other help? The smart choice was to turn down the Hound's offer, not to take it blindly. Sansa also turns down Littlefinger's offer at the end of S2, and she (presumably) only begins to consider it between seasons when it seems clear that Littlefinger actually has a more elaborated plan than "I'll carry you on my shoulder to Winterfell and hope your family is there when we arrive".
- OP here, and, first off, not a Hound fan. At all. Secondly, my point wasn't that the Hound was a perfect angel to Sansa, or that he didn't have his jerkass moments with her. However, he did generally help her when he had the opportunity (giving her his cloak after Joffrey had her stripped, rescuing her from Attempted Rape, promising to protect her from Joffrey, etc.), which is more than anyone else in King's Landing could say, except maybe Tyrion. It's certainly more than Littlefigner's ever done for her. I just don't see why she trusts Littlefinger.
- In the first example Sandor was just doing what he was told. Tyrion had to order him to cover Sansa with his cloak. Before that he was happy to stand back and watch her be brutalized. In the second example he was just doing his job (to protect the royal family and their associates). As for the third example, I'm not sure I'd count "possibly willing to stop a Psychotic Man Child from murdering her in a fit of pique" a good enough reason to trust him. Most of all, you forget that Sansa is fucking terrified of the Hound, and Sandor has done precious little to make her feel otherwise. Contrast that with Littlefinger who, despite coming on a tad creepy at times, has never done or said anything hurtful to Sansa directly and has actually attempted to be kind and charming towards her (as a ploy, but still).
- A nitpick, but no, Tyrion did not have to order Sandor to cover Sansa with his cloak. Tyrion says only, "Someone give the girl something to cover herself with," and the Hound immediately takes it upon himself to step forward. Before that, the Hound didn't move, true; I don't think you can say that he was "happy" to stand back and watch, however, merely that he was being obedient to Joffrey by not interfering. As soon as he gets implicit permission to help her, he does. Watch his face during that scene — he's not happy at all (a fact made even clearer in the books, wherein he actually tells Joff to stop the beating). The Hound is a complicated, unpleasant guy in both books and series, but in both, two things are clear: he takes every opportunity to protect Sansa, but he also acts like a huge scary jerk all the rest of the time, so it's pretty understandable that Sansa would be scared / wary of him.
Robert the Glorious Rebel, Jaime the Despicable Kingslayer?
Why is Jaime condemned for killing the Mad King while Robert is lauded as a hero for waging a blood-soaked revolution against him? I know Jaime swore an oath when he joined the Kingsguard, but didn't the Baratheons also swear an oath to obey King Aerys? Isn't that how it works? Why is it okay for Robert to trash his oath of fealty but when Jaime trashes his oath he gets dirty looks and a mean-spirited nickname? This is especially weird in the case of Ned Stark, who had arguably more cause than Robert to hate the Mad King, but he shits all over Jaime for killing him anyway.
- Aerys shot first. Robert only rebelled after Aerys' demanded his death for no reason, in a way negating Robert's oath (feudalism albeit asymmetrical is a two-way street). He also fought openly on a battlefield against his enemies at great risk to himself. Jaime on the other hand had sworn to the highest level of service to the King forsaking lands or a wife to be King's Guard, then betrayed him when as to paraphrase Ned "serving stopped being safe", stabbing him through the back. We do learn more to the story however...
- I guess that brings up another question: How is Jaime's Kingsguard oath still valid? Not only did he betray it, the royal line he was sworn to serve was completely overthrown (I know the Baratheons are supposed to be descended from a Targaryen bastard but as I understand it that's only a rumor in-universe).
- Politics. Ned wanted Jaime to be made to take the black. But Jon Arryn convinced Robert to pardon Jaime as Lannister support was necessary for the new regime. However the thing that shows how clever Jon Arryn was is that they kept Jaime as a Kingsguard member. Which essentially disinherits him from Casterly Rock. Normally this seat would go to Tyrion being the next eldest son, but given Tywin's contempt for his dwarf son (shown in the first episode of the third season), it's just as likely Cersei would become the Lady of Casterly Rock. Which means Robert's children would be in line to inherit Casterly Rock. So while Joffrey would become King, Tommen might eventually be Lord of Casterly Rock +/- a change of last name. Likewise Barristan lends Robert's regime an air of legitimacy, when he could have been executed or sent to the Wall.
- It's valid because the new king married his twin sister. ie, because they say so.
- The Baratheons are also more recently descended from a Targaryen princess. Robert's father was Aerys's first cousin, and he had a blood claim to the throne on that basis in addition to right of conquest.
- The Kingsguard are not attached to any royal line, but to the throne itself. Hence, the reason why Barristam Selmy (the only other survivor of Aerys's Kingsguard) serves Robert just as devotedly as the man he overthrew.
- Nitpick, there was a least one other survivor of Aerys' King's Guard; the Lord Commander who's name escapes me right now. He's the guy who got Dany and Viserys out of the country and accross the narrow sea, though he died of some illness several years before the start of the series.
- Not so — you're thinking of Ser Willem Darry, who was not in the Kingsguard (Jonothor Darry, apparently his brother, was in the Kingsguard but died in battle). The Lord Commander under Aerys was Gerold Hightower.
- So...they swear an oath to a piece of furniture?
- In case you don't know what metonymy is, I will spell out that "the throne" stands in by association for "the position of monarch."
- Also, keep in mind that Robert's successful rebellion was an unprecedented event for the King's Guard. There had only ever been one royal line before. At least one of Aerys' King's Guard stayed loyal to the Targaryen line until his death well after the rebellion had ended. In the books, Barristan himself states that he might have killed Robert himself, after the rebellion, if Robert had smiled when the bodies of Rhaegar's children were presented to him. Selmy continued to serve under Robert at least partly because he respected Robert and believed him an honorable man.
- It's not about how much Aerys deserved to die, it's a honor thing that doesn't quite have an equivalent in our society. Jaime personally killed the king he had sworn an oath to be a personal bodyguard of. That makes him dishonorable to someone like Ned even if he himself hated Aerys personally and would have killed him if given the chance. The sense is that only a bad/untrustworthy person could do such a thing as Jaime did, if they're in his position, even if the victim was the worst person in the world. Even if you don't go so far as despising Jaime for it, it would be considered a shocking thing. And although Jaime's father was fighting Aerys alongside Ned and Robert, bear in mind that the Kingsguard are a sworn brotherhood like the Night's Watch and Jaime swore to be loyal to the king over his ties of blood to House Lannister.
- ^this. A member of the Kingsguard is supposed and therefore also expected to take a My Master, Right or Wrong-stance when it comes to the king and their oath, while an oath of fealty from one of the lords is more of a reassurance that they'll support their liegelord.
- Just a nitpick, really, but Jaime's father (Tywin) wasn't fighting Aerys alongside Ned and Robert as much as waiting to see who wins and then employing treachery to sack King's Landing and ordering Jaime to kill Aerys himself. That clearly adds to the perception of Jaime as the dishonorable one among those who know how things really went.
- The major point holds up — after the war, the fact that the Baratheons and Lannisters were on the same side was party line and they couldn't make any gestures that suggested that their alliance was anything short of gold.
- That's true, except that Tywin didn't actually order Jaime to kill Aerys. He did it on his own initiative because of Aerys and Rossart's plot to burn King's Landing. Tywin had no opportunity to order him to do anything, really.
- In the books, Jaime himself actually asks this exact question, practically word-for-word ("Why is it that no one names Robert oathbreaker? He tore the realm apart, yet I am the one with shit for honor."). The answer he gets is probably a good measure of the common opinion — the perception is that Robert did what he did for love and vengeance and justice, while Jaime's actions are perceived as simple base backstabbing treachery.
- Part of what it comes down to is that the King's Guard is held to a somewhat higher standard. Nobles occasionally rebel and overthrow their lords; it happens, it's not something people like talking about but it's an accepted part of the society. So when it happens against the crown, people are somewhat more accepting of it(mind you, as Robert himself points out, there are still plenty of people in Westeros that call him Usurper). Meanwhile, knights of the King's Guard are held to a higher standard. They are meant to forsake everything for the service and protection of the King and the Royal Family.
Qarth speaking in the common tongue
Why do the inhabitants of Qarth speak the same language as in Westeros, which is on the other side of the known world?
- What makes you think they do? We only know they speak whatever language Daenerys is speaking. There is no evidence, as of yet, that she is speaking the Westrosi language. That said, the only inhabitants we see speak with Daenerys are the leaders of Qarth. And, as such, would likely know other languages.
- The show has completely averted the Translation Convention trope at all other times. And for another, Daenerys had never even heard of Qarth before crossing the Red Waste, so why would she be instantly fluent in Qarth-ese?
- If Translation Convention had been averted at all other times, Daenerys would have been speaking Dothraki to her Khalasar after the first season. She has yet to, and they don't speak a lick of Westerosi...
- Several of the Drogo's Khalasar speak Westerosi. We even see one of Daenerys' handmaidens teaching her to speak Dothraki during the first season.
- Name one Dothraki in Daenerys Khalasar that speaks Westerosi. The handmaiden that taught Daenerys Dothraki, Doreah, isn't one. She's a slave from Lys. All through the first season, the Dothraki only speak Dothraki. In the second season (and thus far in the third), we never hear a member of Dany's Khalasar speak in the presence of anyone outside the Khalasar (save for Dany, Jorah, and Doreah, who are all established to know Westrosi). As such, we can conclude that Translation Convention is in effect, because they speak to each other and it's not in Dothraki. Unless you're suggesting that Dany taught everyone in her Khalasar perfect Westrosi while traveling through the Red Wastes...
- Okay, here's a clip. A about 4:15 you can clearly see one of Daenerys' Dothraki handmaidens, Irri, speaking Westerosi. Then you see her again a little past 11:50 speaking Westerosi for a second time. The male Dothraki in that scene (Rakharo) also speaks a smattering of Westerosi later on in a conversation with Jorah. Then at around 13:20 you see the same Dothraki handmaiden again teaching Daenerys to speak Dothraki while braiding her hair. And your assumption that Translation Convention must be in effect anyway is pure nonsense. The trope doesn't work that way. In order for Translation Convention to apply, we should have seen all the Dothraki speaking English constantly. Instead we have scenes with subtitles or scenes where one character translates for another.
- Qarth is a massive trading hub with contact with Westerosi merchants, the spice merchant trades with Lannisters for silks for example. It's likely most traders know several languages. Along than Bravosi and Valyrian (with all it's different dialects), Westerosi is an important language to know.
- Qarth isn't on the other side of the known world though, it's across the Narrow Sea and close enough to have Lannisters as frequent trading partners (or around the distance between England and France). There's also the fact that the Targearans came across the Narrow Sea to invade Westeros and forge the Seven Kingdoms and the Iron Throne, so they could have brought Westeorsi to Westeros to begin with. And we know that the language is spoken on that contient already since the Lord giving shelter to Daenerys at the start of the series speaks perfect Westerosi adn converses with it during his stop over in King's Landing.
- Qarth isn't just across the Narrow Sea, it's not one of the free cities. It's actually pretty far away. Past the vast Dothraki Sea and the Red Waste. And a long trip by boat, all the way through Slaver's Bay and past the ruins of Valyria. Also Valyria did not speek Westerosi, they spoke Valyrian, what Westerosi speak is likely an evolved version of what the Andals brought, with the Wildling north of the Wall speaking the Old Languages of the First Men. But Qarth is an important trading hub, so all the merchants would know Westerosi, as Westeros, albeit backwards, is still the largest unified nation with many products for trade.
- In the books, Qarth is depicted as a polyglot city. The first three Qartheen leaders who greet Dany - Xaro Xhoan Daxos, Pyat Pree and Quaithe (the woman in the mask) - do so in Valyrian, Dothraki and the Common Tongue of Westeros respectively. Dany knows all three languages, so there's no problem with communication with the Qartheen. The TV show may have chosen not to depict this specifically, but there's no doubt that there are many languages being spoken in Qarth, and that there is a translation convention in play whenever that language isn't the Common Tongue.
The King who doesn't do anything
If Stannis saw his (admittedly potentially false) victory and destiny in Melisandre's flames...then why is he sitting around on Dragonstone not shaving and staring into space being depressed?? He should be marshaling his forces to have another strike at the main land, not letting Melisandre burn whoever she likes!
- Seeing it foretold and having the current strength and strategy to bring it off are two different things.
- If it's anything similar to the book, Stannis only has around two thousand men at this point and his only ships are the pirates who just want to get paid. Where as previously he besieged King's Landing with 25-30k and the entire Royal Navy (~200 war galleys)
- Sallador Saan mentions how crippled Stannis' power is and warns that if he doesn't pay his debts he'll lose the power he has left.
Arya's escape at midnight
When helping Arya escape Harrenhall, Jaqen tells her to walk out through the main gate at midnight. How would she know when midnight is?
- Probably the same way the guards(and Jaqen) know when midnight (or any time) is, whatever that may be. There is likely a clock in Harenhall somewhere.
- They had candle clocks in the Middle Ages — candles marked with hours that would give you a rough idea what time it was.
- Water Clocks seem like another thing that they would use extensively in the Riverlands. The commoners at Harrenhal might also have an idea of what hour is during the night if it coincides with changes of guard and the like.
Lord Commander Mormont knew that Craster gives his sons to the White Walkers
In the second season, we see Craster giving his newborn son to the White Walkers, and it turns out Mormont has known about it for years. How is that possible, if he didn't know the White Walkers are back until the middle of Season 1?
- I got the impression that Mormont knew Craster left his sons out in the woods to die and had to dismiss it as a necessary evil in order to keep an ally, but was kept in the dark about the White Walkers taking them. After all, Jon only knew because he followed Craster.
- True. Mormont knows that Craster kills his sons (or put 2 and 2 together a long time ago — after all, the guy only has daughters to rape lying around), and chalks it up to some barbarian religious ritual. However, Jon words it in a way that makes Mance think that Mormont knows about Craster's pact with the WW, making him willing to believe that Jon's desertion is real.
How did Tyrion get his face cut in half at the end of Blackwater and come away with only a nasty scar? Wouldn't the sword have sliced into his frontal lobe, causing severe brain damage or death?
- A freak anatomical oddity called "having a skull"? He managed to dodge so the blade only caught him a glancing blow and caused a flesh wound.
- If the sword had glanced off his skull then the scar would have stopped right around his nose.
- The "skull" includes the entire head, not just the cranial case. There is a heavy ridge of bone just above the eye precisely to protect it, we've all heard of cheekbones, and the nose and teeth are set in bone. A blow like that might have cracked his cheekbone, maxilla, and/or browridge, might even have split them partially, but it would not necessarily have been fatal. If bleeding were controlled, and if there either wasn't enough damage to the maxilla (upper teeth and the bone they're set in) to prevent eating, or the victim could afford a soft diet which didn't need a lot of chewing until he healed, then it could very well end up disfuguring but not fatal.
- Given how his skin split when the sword made contact, it would appear that it was a very superficial cut and Ser Mandon misjudged the distance between him and Tyrion.
- The books heavily imply that Mandon Moore was a sociopath. It's as likely as not that he made the first cut knowing that it probably wouldn't kill him, just so Tyrion would know that he was about to die. It's equally probable that Joffrey ordered him to let Tyrion know it was coming.
Jorah the Andal
Why does Khal Drogo call Jorah, "Jorah the Andal"? Jorah is a northman, descended from the First Men and decidedly not an Andal.
- Either a. Jorah never explained the difference to him and Drogo assumed that since he was from Westeros, he must be an Andal, b. Jorah tried to explain it to him but failed and Drogo just went with the simple answer that he's an Andal, or c. Jorah did explain it to him and Drogo just didn't care.
- According to The Other Wiki they call him that in reference to his Westerosi origins. So yeah, as far as the Dothraki (or at least Khal Drogo) are concerned "Westerosi" and "Andal" are virtually synonymous. I would guess Jorah decided it wasn't worth having an argument with Drogo about a silly nickname.
- It's not actually clear whether the Mormonts were originally Northerners. Jorah is a knight, which at least nominally requires that you worship the Seven like the southerners do, and we know they weren't originally native to Bear Island: the Starks won it from the Ironborn, and gave it to the Mormonts. The Starks also welcomed the Manderlys into the north, who were Andalish southerners and the only house we know for sure in the north that worships the Seven.
- Jorah earned his knighthood through distinguished military service(being second through the breach at the battle of Pyke); while becoming a knight during peace time is very much a religious act, during war time it's often as not a convenient reward granted by the king(Bronn, for instance, is hardly a religious fellow, and still gets a knighthood for his part in the battle of Blackwater)
- Why might people in England call someone from the American south a "Yankee"? Drogo doesn't care about Jorah's ancestors, he just uses "Andal" to mean "person from Westeros".
"Valar Morghulis" "Yes, but we are not men"
This exchange, which occurred in S03 E03, makes no sense. We know "valar morghulis" is a term in High Valyrian, and while we see it translated to "all men must die" all the time, it's also noteworthy that, in the books, it's mentioned that High Valyrian is very gender-neutral, to the point of translation to the language of Westeros creating misinformation. So, it should be evident to someone well-versed in the language, like Dany is, that the "men" in the translation refers to humans in general, not just males.
- It's just a play on words. They both know that valar morghulis actually refers to humans in general, but that's not the point. Dany is telling the girl that she'll be protected so long as she stays with Dany and her army.
- Worth noting, although irrelevant to this particular phrase, that the gender-neutrality of Valyrian is just Fanon, anyways. We're told that the word for "prince" can also be translated as "princess", and people have speculated that this means other words translated as gender-specific may not be, but there's really no hard-and-fast linguistic reason for that to be the case.
Tyrion As Master of Coin
Everyone in the small council seems to be tickled pink at the notion of Tyrion as Master of Coin, seemingly with the hope that he'll fail at it spectacularly. However, he raises an incredibly legitimate point in that the crown is deep in debt and the royal wedding will cost even more money while they're still fighting a war with the opposite half of the kingdom. If Tywin is planning for Tyrion to prove himself an utter disappointment yet again, why give him arguably the kingdom's most vital job?
- Tywin might not like Tyrion, but he is still his son and he does trust his abilities enough to have made him acting Hand instead of his own brother who is competent in his own right (just not enough to step out of Tywin's shadow). Either that or Tywin has a secret plan in case Tyrion fails.
- Well, Tywin basically owns as much money as he can possibly need, even if Tyrion fails as Master of Coin (which, as pointed out above, is not necessarily what Tywin is expecting to happen), he can just produce the amount needed, further deepening the crown's dept to the Lannisters, which in the end works in his favour.
- I cannot imagine Tyrion could get the crown any deeper into debt. If Tywin truly does think Tyrion will fail, I doubt it would actually make the situation any worse. Tywin probably figures things are so bad, the worst possible outcome would be Tyrion succeeding! Tyrion went over the books and discovered that Littlefinger's bookkeeping doesn't add up. It has since been revealed that Littlefinger is responsible for most of the problems in the series, including driving the kingdom into debt, and more disturbingly, financing it with money borrowed from the Iron Bank of Braavos. .
Small Westeros geography question
Maybe something has flown over my head, but I think this happened: Arya escaped Harrenhal, headed north, run into the Brotherhood. Robb advanced south, took Harrenhal. So Arya should be in Stark-controlled territory right now, right? Then, how is the Brotherhood still fighting the Lannisters, using the Lannister song to lure them out, and Arya has not run into Stark bannermen yet that would have taken her to her family?
- Without giving anything away, the Brotherhood Without Banners is the remains of the force led by Beric Dondarrion Ned ordered to capture Gregor Clegane. They aren't fighting Lannisters, per se, but still trying to execute their original orders. Arya and friends have been trying to stay off the roads since leaving Harrenhal to avoid running into Lannister soldiers, which means she'll also end up avoiding her brother's men. Also, the Riverlands are criss-crossed by rivers, so she can't head just straight north from Harrenhal. And just because Robb has taken Harrenhal does not mean the area is Stark-controlled. Contested is a more likely word for it.
"He was taken at my command!"
When Jaime confronts Ned about Tyrion being captured by Catelyn, Ned claims he ordered it. But...he didn't order it and he knows it. What did Ned think he stood to gain by lying about this?
- He was trying to take the blame off his wife. Had they believed him, the Lannisters wouldn't have started burning and pillaging the Riverlands.
Tyrion's Noodle Implements
In the scene where Tyrion interrogates Pycell (Season 2, ep. 3) what is that...nasty looking doodad Tyrion is playing with? Do I even want to know?
- I always thought it was that tool you use to draw circles with or to study maps with.
- But it has a thingy in the middle like a cigar cutter. And Tyrion was talking about cutting off Pycelle's manhood as he was fooling with it...
- That's exactly what it is. The thing gets in the middle, the lever(s) get pulled and the blade cuts it in half.
Greyjoys Badass Creed
What is dead may never die.
What does that even mean?
- It's a reference to their Drowned God religion (separate from the Faith of the Seven or the Old Gods). The Ironborn believe the Drowned God was drowned by the Storm God and now lives in the sea. "What is dead may never die" is only half their credo. The other half is "but rises again harder and stronger."
- Also, just to clarify, the Greyjoy's creed is "We do not sow", referencing their old ways of raiding and reaving, rather than reaping harvests. "What is dead may never die" is, as mentioned above, a religious phrase common to all Ironborn.
- Mostly it's just a Shout-Out to the Cthulhu Mythos, as is the Drowned God. "That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die."
- As with the Drowned God they worship, the implication of "what is dead may never die, but rises again harder and stronger" is that they will always return from defeat, even more powerful than before. On an individual level, those who fall in combat do not merely die, but become celebrated heroes. That makes it a good war cry in the face of tough odds.
- It comes from the Drowned God's initiation ritual. The supplicant's head is held under water until they stop breathing. Thus, they die. Then they are pulled to shore and, using artificial respiration, are brought back to life. It must seem miraculous that someone who is dead can be alive again. Hence, the slogan proclaiming they can never die again.
"You don't fight with honor!" Wait, what?
In A Golden Crown after Bronn duels Ser Vardis in a trial by combat, Lysa accuses him of not fighting with honor. But, just what did Bronn do during that fight that was dishonorable? Surely in Westeros it's not considered dishonorable to dodge
during a fight.
- Bronn's whole Combat Pragmatist MO runs counter to the honourable, knightly way of fighting: Lysa calls him a coward for dodging so much; that just isn't how armoured knights and such are supposed to fight. He uses "dirty tricks" too: Tripping Ser Vardis up, pushing the candelabra over to block him, kicking his shield away when he's down, etc. The biggest one, though, is when he pushes a random bystander at Ser Vardis. Using innocents as human shields is considered pretty dishonourable here in Real Life, let alone in Westeros.
- Chivalric dueling is different than a pitched battle. No one would really blink if Bronn did everything he did on the field of battle, but in a trial by combat between knights you'd be expected to fight with sword and shield and armor and to use your skill at arms, not jumping around until the other guy is too tired to fight back.
Does Lord Tywin know about the twincest of his children?
- Joffrey's real lineage is something of an Open Secret and the twins are not nearly as smart or discreet as they think they are to conceal something like this from their very shrewd father, for their entire adult lives. Tywin enabling an infamous situation inside his family doesn't suit him, what with being hardass and straight-laced, as shown with Tyrion... perhaps he's just in denial?
- Just speculation, but Tywin doesn't seem the type for denial. Nor does he seem the type to be oblivious to this sort of thing. I'm sure he knows and is thoroughly disgusted with both Jaime and Cersei. But as Joffrey makes a convenient pawn through which Tywin can rule all of Westeros, he'll maintain plausible deniability.
- He doesn't seem like it, but in the books, he very much is. Again, he doesn't seem like it, but he has a huge blind spot in regards to his children. He doesn't see them for what they are, he sees them for what he expects them to be. One of his relatives made a point of saying that of his children, Tyrion is the most like him, but he refuses to see it, insisting that Jaime is his true golden boy, completely overlooking, or at least downplaying, Jaime's various flaws. That being said, the books never explicitly say whether or not he's aware of the twincest, though it's implied that he isn't, and dismisses it as slander. Tyrion and Uncle Kevan, however, are very much aware of it, another point to how blind Tywin really is, despite how he may seem.
- "Tywin enabling an infamous situation inside his family doesn't suit him" — his family are, at the moment, de facto rulers of the Seven Kingdoms. "Enabling" the lie that Joffrey is Robert's son is all that is keeping them there. Everyone may call him Joffrey Baratheon, but his mother is Queen Regent and his grandfather Hand of the King, and as wilful as he may be even the King still largely dances to his true family's tune. Tywin only cares about his family's good name insofar as it works in their favour — if it's a choice between a good name and having a direct line to the throne, what's he going to choose?
- And if nothing else, the deed is done. What is there to be done about it?
- The question/doubt is more about the sustained incest as a habit, like Tyrion's whoremonging, and Tywin not correcting / noticing it in his backstory and never mentioning it nowadays. In the present day, it's easy to disregard it as slander, Stannis' propaganda. "Suit" as in personality-wise (the obliviousness, not the pragmatism), one may expect at least a censoring private remark from a man who gives plenty. The eventual by-product, a King, is of course good for the family and convenient.
- It's expressly mentioned in the books that, at least at the point that Tyrion comes back to King's Landing (before Stannis sends out his letters), that Tyrion is sure Tywin doesn't know. In fact it's a shocker to Cersei that Tyrion knows, and he flat out asks her if she thought he was as blind to it as their father.
- Do we know if the incest was already happening while they were still in Casterly Rock? If they only started having relations after Cersei moved to KL and married Robert, on the other hand, Tywin could be excused for being ignorant until Stannis made it public, at which point Tywin would disregard it as slander for sure.
- In the books, they started at age nine. In the show, they were probably a bit older.
- Word of God after episode six is that he's in denial about it and that his blindspot in regards to his children is his one true weakness.
- And we finally have on-screen confirmation. Tywin doesn't know a damn thing about it until Cersei openly throws it in his face in "The Children", and even after she tells him about it straight-up he still just stammers in denial.
I'm pretty sure that was a confession, which you didn't need anyway.
- So The Hound is taken to Lord Beric, who wants to execute him for murder. The Hound claims that he never killed babies or children, and Beric doesn't seem to contest that. For a moment, it looks like he's thinking of letting him go, and then Arya mentions her friend that he killed all the way back in Season 1. The Hound admits to killing him on the order of the Prince. Beric then says that "Nobody knows the truth of it.." Uh...Yes? Yes you do. He just confessed to murder. Of a child. Does it matter that he did it on orders? Are there any circumstances wherein that's okay? You were going to execute him for killing babies, but that would've been on orders too. And why are you even having this discussion? he's an enemy soldier. A damn good one, too. You don't need an excuse to execute him. Get all the info you can out of him, give him a last meal, and then kill him. Or ransom him if anyone wants him. But there is absolutely no reason to give him a trial.
- From a legal standpoint, in a feudal society like this, yeah, it does matter whether he was ordered to do it or not. We're talking about an autocratic society where everyone was expected to show absolute obedience to their liege lord(s). Especially if your lord is also your king-to-be. You'll notice that Ned Stark was the one who first saw the Hound dragging the boy's corpse back to the inn, but not once did he bring it up with Robert. I believe the baby-killing during the Sack of King's Landing was a different situation. As far as I know Tywin never ordered the Mountain to do that. Gregor did it because he's a psychopath and he wasn't told not to do it. Of course from a legal standpoint the Brotherhood has no right to even exist. Every one of them is an outlaw of one kind or another. So really, there's not much call for them to care whether the Hound was following orders or not.
- I was under the impression was that the bone of contention wasn't whether or not he had killed the boy, after all he did confess, but whether or not the order to kill him was justified. Gregor Clegane was ordered to kill the Targaryen children by Tywin to cement Robert's rule and everybody thinks that was a horrid crime. Sandor admits to killing the butcher's boy, but it would be justified if the boy had actually assaulted the king.
- Exactly; it's the "he said/she said" factor. Also, possibly Beric likes the prospect of taking the Hound on in single combat; it seems a more palpable form of justice than an execution would be.
- OP Here, i think you're all missing the point somewhat. Nobody contests that he was ordered to do it. If orders are all that matter, it doesn't matter whether Joffrey was justified in giving the order. The Hound wasn't there, he was given an order, he did his job. The order was entirely reasonable from The Hound's perspective (If we're getting into territory where orders absolve you of guilt. We'll agree that in this society, it does). It'd be like if Ned ordered one of his knights to kill a peasant because the peasant attacked him. If the Knight found out later that Ned lied, well, he still carried out the order on good confidence. He had no reason to believe Ned was lying, or in The Hounds case, Joffrey. And even if we could explain away the legality of it all, there's still one crucial fact: Its a war. He's an enemy captive. He is an extremely dangerous swordsman. They don't need a reason to kill him. The fact that they pretend they do bugs the shit out of me. And before anyone mentions anything about "honor" these guys have been played up as guerrilla fighters, the fuck do they care about honor? I don't know if this happened in the books, but if it did, could someone explain how it went down there?
- As will be revealed, Berric Dondarrion's insistence on an honorable trial and his recent conversion to the Lord of Light, as well as his group's dedication to hunting down criminals like Gregor Clegane, are all because: Berric Dondarrion died when he was ambushed by Lannisters hoping it was Ned Stark coming to arrest Gregor Clegane. Thoros is a Red Priest of R'hllor and accidentally brought Berric back to life as part of burial rights. A side effect is that now Berric is singularly focused on honor and protecting the weak.
- Ignoring the spoiler and getting into speculation, yes these guys care about honour. Just because they are guerrilla fighters doesn't mean they've abandoned all concepts of being honourable, it just means they're more pragmatic in regards to warfare. They have The Hound as their prisoner, so just killing him is straight-up murder, which all of them feel they're above. Hence their need to find something he's guilty of so they can kill him and retain the moral highground. Their whole bit is not answering to any faction (banner), it's about punishing those on any side who prey on the innocent. Not to mention that even in war in Westeros killing Prisoners seems to be frowned upon. Tywin doesn't condone it even if it's out of pragmatic reasons, Robb certainly doesn't agree with any form of mistreatment of prisoners and most of the Brotherhood are former Stark-Bannermen who were originally sent out on a mission of honour and justice. It really is what it seems to be on the surface; they honestly believe they are bringing justice to those who think they are above it and to just kill someone without a reason makes them no better than the ones they're judging.
- There are many things about the Unsullied that don't seem to make sense. Daenerys orders them to slay "all Masters, anyone holding a whip". The problem is that she is a master holding a whip, so why they didn't skewer her on the spot? If they could hold loyalties beyond their mental programming, then why they all obeyed without hesitation? And likewise, if the ceremonial whip that Danerys got gives absolute authority over them, then how would she command thousands of men in dozens of units in battle all on her own? And what prevents enemies from making copies of the whip and sending people shouting contradictory orders in Valyrian at the confused Unsullied?
- Actually I believe her Exact Words were "every MAN holding a whip". As for enemies making duplicate whips to create confusion, I think the Unsullied are a little smarter than you give them credit for.
- Exactly. They're not zombies blindly obeying to the letter whoever has a gold whip in their hand, they're just incredibly well-disciplined soldiers. The whip is just a symbol that she has taken possession of them, which they already knew was going to happen (think of it as a receipt for the transaction), so that they know to obey her orders (based on a reasonable interpretation, which is pretty unlikely to include "kill me" unless specified). Also, she's a master, but she's not a Master — "the Good Masters" are the ruling class of Astapor.
- And as far as battle command goes, IIRC in the book she's told that officers have to be provided from a non-Unsullied class of soldier in Astapor.
- Speaking of which, what symbol of authority would Danerys have gotten if she only bought, say, 3,000 men, leaving the rest under the command of the Good Masters? And how would a battle between two armies of Unsullied work out?
- She would probably have gotten the same symbol. And a battle between 3,000 Unsullied on Dany's side and 5,000 on Krasnys' side would probably have gone very badly for Danerys. That's why she insisted on having all 8,000 of them.
- What I actually meant was what would prevent Dany from walking off with all the 8,000 Unsullied in tow after paying for 3,000, for example, if they all follow one, single symbol of authority. And my question about the potential battle between different groups of Unsullied was mostly concerning the fact that other warlords and cities have surely bought them before, so how they would tell each other and their commanders apart in the fray of battle, since they all use the same symbols and commands?
- Like one of the above tropers said, the Unsullied aren't zombies. The golden whip is mostly a symbolic item. It doesn't magically control them and they don't blindly follow whoever holds it. If, say, another warlord snuck up and stole Dany's whip then her Unsullied would still follow her because they recognize her as their Mistress. If someone stole the King's crown and put it on, would the Kingsguard be confused about whose orders to obey? Of course not.
- If Dany only bought 3000, then there would only be 3000 in that square to be taken from in the first place. The rest would remain in barracks supervised by the city masters. If Dany then went to the barracks after the transaction of the 3000 and told the other 5000 unsullied that she had bought them, the 5000 would just look to their current caretaker and he'd say "Nope, she's lying. Kill her." The entire point of having a public transaction is so that the unsullied can see who's their legal master now.
- It bugs me a bit that the Unsullied (or more accurately, the extras cast in the role) don't seem particularly fit. I know they're supposed to be good because they're insanely disciplined and suicidally obedient, but the iron will to hold a battle line can only count for so much if you don't have the physical ability to match.
- In every scene we see with the Unsullied all of them are wearing armour that's covering their torso, so how fit they may or may not be can't be answered. They don't have to be He-Man size to be good soldiers, they just need the endurance to keep fighting longer (which was mentioned as a selling point in episode one) and enough strength to shove a spear through someone (which they don't seem to have any problems with, although that wasn't so much a real battle than a slaughter).
- Fridge Brilliance: The Unsullied are castrated. Castration prevents the physical changes that come with puberty, resulting in a non-muscular build (and also a higher-pitched voice, but I guess that would have been too silly for an action/drama).
- In the books it's actually admitted to that the Unsullied, generally speaking, aren't necessarily as physically strong as many regular soldiers and knights, but they don't necessarily have to be. Their training, technique, and discipline generally win out. Another advantage is that not only are they completely immune to physical pain, but they're also immune to psychological warfare, which in and of itself is a huge psychological blow to their enemies.
Craster and his daughter-wives
Craster is living all by himself with, what, a dozen or so women? They clearly hate him, so why don't they overpower him? Maybe cut his throat while he sleeps? Carve some wooden spears and skewer him? Something like that?
- Why do mistreated dogs not kill their masters? It's likely within their power to do so, but they very rarely do it, because that hatred is mixed with fear, fear systematically instilled through abuse. Sadly, it is often much the same with systematically abused humans. These women do not know life without Craster; they have real contacts with no other human beings in the world. Fear keeps them in line, as well as the belief that they have no potential in life beyond continuing serving him and producing his offspring.
- I could believe that if Craster was living with one, maybe two or three or four women. But Craster seems to have an endless supply of daughter-wives. Doesn't it occur to any of them that they vastly outnumber their "husband" and could easily take him down if they just tried?
- Consider that every single one of his wives was raised by him since birth. And for that matter, we know what he does to the boys; what might he do with disobedient little girls?
- Have we any evidence of this hate to begin with? There are plenty of abused in the real world that are too emotionally dependent of their abuser to rebel or think of a life not by the abuser's side. Craster's Keep is in essence a cult and Craster its omnipotent leader that rules through fear and extortion. If a woman speaks of turning against him, it's more likely that the other women would turn against her than against Craster. Finally, as awful as Craster is, his point that he is the one turning the WW away through his child sacrificing ritual is actually true, and the women probably have first hand evidence of it. Assuming that the WW only accept Craster as authority, the moment Craster dies those women are dead and they know it.
- Plus, they know they won't get any help from the Night's Watch because Craster's Keep is a strategically important outpost for their rangers.
- "Have we any evidence of this hate to begin with?" Fair enough, that was admittedly an assumption on my part. But they definitely don't like him. Unlike other domestic abuse victims, they don't claim to love their abuser. The closest we see to that is one scene where Craster goads one of his wives into saying how "content" they are with him. But it's clear she doesn't believe what she's saying. In fact, none of them show any indication that they like Craster. I just find it implausible that it never occurred to any of Craster's wives that they outnumber him at least 10 to 1. But I guess the cult thing is a decent enough explanation.
- One of the big taboos in Westrosi culture, to the point that it crosses over into wildling culture — and this hasn't been pointed out in the show yet — is that kinslaying is a huge moral event horizon. The wildlings have folk legends about the gods punishing even unknowing kinslayings. Craster would likely play this up as part of his control of his daughters; if they kill him, they'll be cursed by the gods forever.
- You need to remember that Craster's deal with the White Walkers is the only thing keeping them alive.
- In the books, the scene of his death has his wives shrieking and weeping over his corpse. So they liked him.
- Well, there's also the issue that Craster was, at the time (in both the show and the books) the only thing standing between them and being raped by the Night's Watchmen. In the show, they're a bit more concerned about food, but the black brothers won't spare the women for long.
- Not to mention what they'll do when forced to interact with wildling raiders.
Why would anyone carry a bottle full of horse piss?
- Yeah, I was wondering the same thing. My guess is that he collected it just to give it to Jaime, just to fuck with him more. Although that's pretty stupid in the grand scheme of things. Even ingesting a little urine could harm someone, especially when they've had a dramatic amputation that's probably hasn't been cleaned properly. Besides pointless cruelty, I remember reading somewhere that some cultures would use piss and shit as cheap poisons on their swords and arrows, so a wound would be more likely to get infected.
- Urine is actually quite sterile and does no harm in small quantities. People in danger of fatal dehydration have actually managed to delay the inevitable by drinking their own urine. There is no kind of danger of being infected, since the ammonia and phosphor in urine kill all bacteria in the general vicinity; peeing in a wound is in fact a good idea if no other disinfectants are available. But as for the show, Locke obviously prepared beforehand to make the cruel prank.
- Actually, that's only partly true. Urine is naturally sterile and it was used as a cleaning solution in pre-industrial times, which might be why they were saving it. But drinking urine in a survival situation is an extremely bad idea. Urine has a lot of salts in it which make dehydration worse, plus lots of other chemicals the body can't tolerate (the whole purpose of urination is to expel these chemicals). The only possible survival use for urine (human or otherwise) is in a desert climate. Soaking a piece of clothing and putting it against the body can help keep the body temperature down.
- It depends how concentrated the urine is. A well-hydrated person's (or horse's) urine can still be more dilute than the bloodstream. The kidneys are *very* good at concentrating those toxins, putting a lot into a little urine, when the body is short on water. So, in a survival situation, if your bladder starts out containing dilute urine from when you were well-hydrated, you might benefit from drinking it. Urine created *while* you're dehydrated, on the other hand, would just be adding toxins back into your system.
- Honestly, this is Vargo we're talking about. He probably either doesn't know or just doesn't care that urine is toxic and thought the idea of a high and mighty Kingslayer drinking piss would make a good laugh.
- Or it wasn't piss. Far easier prank to just tell him it is, and then either laugh at him being so thirsty he carries on drinking regardless, or even better watch as Your Mind Makes It Real and he gags on it. But really, it could just as well be either.
- It looks yellow when he spits it out.
You're no knight!
So why was Bronn Knighted? I mean, he fought well during the battle of Blackwater, but he was more or less just another foot soldier. Yes, he lit the fire that destroyed a good part of Stannis' fleet, but all he did was light the flame. And I'd be surprised if anyone even acknowledged that much. After all, he was working for Tyrion, and if Tyrion didn't get credit for making that plan, then who did? and was Bronn's part in it acknowledged? I guess it wouldn't be out of character for Bronn to lie about whose plan it was so he could be Knighted, but you'd think Tyrion would say something about it.
- Bronn was one of Tyrion's allies, so they hoped to buy his loyalty with a knighthood. And Bronn was the captain of the Gold Cloaks during the time when they barely kept the lid on the city, so the rationale probably had something to do with that.
- In the books it's mentioned that Bronn was one of about three hundred or so men to be knighted after the battle. Pretty much everyone who distinguished themselves in combat and wasn't a knight already was anointed. It is, essentially, a bribe to keep capable fighters on their side.
- Tyrion's part in leading the assault against Stannis' army isn't acknowledged, but his trick with the Wildfire is as admitted by his sister. Bronn got knighted over it because he was half responsible for it (making that brilliant shot with the flaming arrow).
- Bronn was also shown standing far outside the protection of the city walls in order to set off the Wildfire. The fact that he takes on that kind of additional risk in order to carry out his part of the plan also counts in his favor.
- Tywin probably saw to it. Remember, despite all, he **is** aware of exactly who is and who is not competent, which is why he gives Tyrion, not Cercei positions of authority. Bronn fought ably and well, why not reward him, which would be an example for others.
Frey soldiers with Robb...
In Season 1, Catelyn describes the deal with the Freys as including several hundred soldiers. In Season 2, everyone seems to forget about this, and the deal is repeatedly referred to as being just for a bridge, possibly because that's the only way Robb could have any hope of not looking like a complete idiot who no one should ever trust for breaking it. And now in Season 3, he's planning to go to Walder Frey to ask for men, with no mention at all of the men he should already have, not even a throwaway line that they deserted him after he broke the deal. So this may or may not be an official Retcon
- Indeed, Catelyn specifically says that Frey gave them all of his men except for 400 to guard the Twins. Yet suddenly we're given the impression that he's got some huge, untapped army? Odd.
- I took it as them leaving once he married Talisa, as he was in a strong position in the last season but the war effort is falling apart at the seams in Season 3.
Perhaps not the best choice in Marriage candidates.
So, why Tyrion/Sansa and Cersei/Loras? I mean, i get that binding the Lannisters to the Starks and the Tyrell's is important, but why Tyrion and Cersei? Why not marry Tommen and Sansa? It would make a lot more sense politically. a Lannister/Stark marriage alliance probably wouldn't go over well in The North, but a Baratheon/Stark would probably work a lot better. And, as for the Tyrell's, why is a marriage necessary at all? with Joffrey's marriage coming up, and a Tyrell becoming Queen, you'd think that would be enough. Surely Cersei should milk her power as Queen Regent for as long as possible. And, in a world with their kind of medicine, wouldn't it be dangerous for Cersei to have anymore children at her age? Surely there's a younger, unwed female Lannister Tywin could use to bind the family if its that important. It seems like he just chose Tyrion and Cersei because he was pissed at them, which doesn't jive with the coldly pragmatic Tywin we've seen so far.
- Tywin desperately tried to marry off Tyrion to another noble family for years, and even the most lowly lord shrugged him off because nobody wanted a devious imp as a son-in-law (the books make a point of how much that bugs Tywin). Sansa's, albeit the daughter of a presumed traitor, still is the only (legitimate and non-rebelling) scion of a noble house of equal status to the Lannisters and a better match than he could ever have hoped to get for Tyrion. And since neither her nor her family have any say in whom she marries, he made her the wife of the one son who was a no-sell otherwise. That and the fact that Tywin is pretty keen on having her impregnated pretty soon (to further cement the alliance), which would be a problem for pre-teen Tommen.
- I'll assume you mean why not marry Sansa to Tommen to keep Sansa in King's Landing. The answer is that the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa isn't just to keep a hold on Sansa, it's also a way for Tywin to punish Tyrion for his (real or imagined) dishonorable acts against the family name. The Cersei/Loras marriage is Tywin's attempt to strengthen the bonds between House Lannister and House Tyrell even more. Joffrey/Margery was a nice start, but if it's worth doing it's worth overdoing. And it has to be Cersei because she's the most important female Lannister. If they used anyone else the Tyrells could theoretically refuse the offer and Tywin would look foolish. But if Loras refused to marry the Queen Regent it would be a huge political embarrassment for House Tyrell. And on top of all that, it might just put an end to all those Twincest rumors once and for all. Or so Tywin hopes.
- Also when it comes to marriage alliances, all the value is in who is getting married. It's not the marriage itself, but the children who create a real lasting agreement. Loras is heir to Highgarden and so one day he will be the lord of the Reach and so will his children. Sansa might end up being the lord of the North if her brother dies, as will her children be. Tywin marrying them to his children makes a stronger, lasting bond between House Lannister and the Starks and Tyrells. If he were to just find some single cousin of his, the marriage wouldn't be as good an offer and it wouldn't necessarily be a lasting bond.
- There's also the fact that while Tywin may hate Tyrion, he does acknowledge that Tyrion can be a shrewd and effective leader when put to task. Tommen's a sweet kid, but he's, what, ten? Tywin wants the Lannister's to rule the north, he needs someone with Tyrion's cunning to do it. Ideally he'd need someone with Tyrion's cunning and Jaime's strength, but he has to work with what he's got. There's also the point that a marriage to Tommen will probably be worth more later on down the line; it's really the last card Tywin has to play, so he doesn't want to play it too quickly.
- There's also the fact that though he is cold and calculating about everything else, Tywin is extremely emotionally compromised when it comes to his children and late wife. He doesn't think rationally when it comes to them. He still expects Jaime to inherit Casterly Rock, for example, even though the members of the Kingsguard can't marry or hold land. He remains in denial about the true heritage of his grandchildren. Just because he's one of the most clever men in the Seven Kingdoms doesn't mean that he doesn't have blind spots.
- There is also the fact that marrying Sansa to Tommen, as well as the upcoming Margaery/Joffrey wedding, strengthens the bond between houses Tyrell and Baratheon, not Lannister. Sure, at this point they're as much Lannister as they are Baratheons (and in truth they're 100% Lannister bastards), but a few generations away, and they'll only have a distant relation to the Lannister name. Tywin cares more about Lannister legacy than his actual family members, so it makes sense that not only would he fill the court with Lannisters, but also try to marry Lannisters to other important families.
Why is Cersei so smug at Tyrion's marriage prospects?
I could understand her being smug at Sansa
("Oh, she's forced to marry the dwarf, how humiliating!"), but why at Tyrion
She's not unattractive, she's sweet and all, it's not that bad for him. It's not like she can expect him to stop whoring — she doesn't seem to think much of his honor, and I wouldn't be surprised if she thinks that he'd just keep other girls on the side, especially considering how young she is. Why is the prospect of marrying Sansa so terrible for Tyrion?
- Because Cersei's a big douche and likes that Tyrion is going to have to do something he doesn't want to do.
- More specifically, she knows he's already in love with another woman (she thought it was Roz in Season 2; not sure if she still thinks Roz is Tyrion's girl).
- If there are two words to describe Cersei, they are shallow and short-sighted. She is laughing her ass off in anticipation of Tyrion's confused face 3 seconds into the future, or imagining how ridiculous he'll look before the altar with Sansa towering next to him in a few weeks at best. What could happen in years to come, such as them coming to love each other and being happy together, is something that she doesn't care about or simply does not cross her mind.
- I think, on the contrary, that she understands pretty well how horrible this marriage would be to Tyrion. That is because it would make Sansa absolutely miserable to marry not just a dwarf, of course, but first and foremost a Lannister. No matter how loving and caring Tyrion would ever try to be, she would always associate him with the murderers of her father and destroyers of her family, not to mention see him as the one thing that ruined her chance to escape the hated King's Landing, get away from Joffrey and probably find true happiness with Loras. And because Tyrion is a decent human being (that is, "a pussy", in Cercei's book), who would, imagine that, be sincerely concerned with such folly as happiness of a Stark bitch, making her miserable, even inadvertantly, would make him deeply miserable as well.
Why is Tyrion's name Tyrion?
If Jaime is the firstborn son and favorite, why doesn't he follow Lannister naming rituals by having a Ty- name, like Tytos and Tywin? If Tyrion is considered the bastard of his family (to the point that Tywin suspects that he is literally a bastard), why does his name start with Ty-?
- Tywin doesn't think or suspect that Tyrion is a bastard, he knows full well that he is his son he just utterly hates admitting that it's true. His rant meant that if he could he would have disowned Tyrion but since he is his flesh and blood he's forced to acknowledge that he is a Lannister and his son with all that entails (providing for him, inheritence, etc. etc.). Now onto your question, it was no doubt Twyin's late wife who was behind the naming, since most names are chosen before birth.
- According to GRR, it was Tywin who named Tyrion. A fan asked who named various characters. Jon, for another example, was named by Ned.
- Not all Lannisters use the Ty- naming convention. While there certainly is Tywin, Tytos, Tyrion, Tygget and Tyrek. There are also more plainer names like Willum, Martyn and Kevan. There is aslo a soft-G sound naming convention with Joanna, Genna, Janei, Gerion, Jaime and Joy (Hill). I imagine Tywin's wife Joanna (also a Lannister as they were cousins) named the twins. But when she died in Tyrion's birth, Tywin had to name the baby so the classic Ty-name. Ty-names aren't restriced to Lannisters either, there's a Tytos Blackwood in the Riverlands.
- You might just overstate the importance of the Ty- naming. Sure, Tywin and Tytos both had it, but that doesn't necessarily mean that there is a tradition to name every Lannister heir Ty-. It seems to be common in Westeros to re-use names within noble families, sometimes in variation (see Rickon and his granfather Rickard), and Ty- is just a syllable that shows up in Lannister names a lot, like Rhae- and Ae- in Targaryan names. Doesn't mean that it is considered a mark of great importance.
- Also, it might be that Tywin didn't really care about the names, but felt that at least one of his children should get a Ty-name, and when Joanna died and it was unlikely for him to have another son, he just went with Tyrion.
- Or Joanna and Tywin may have just decided on the name before Tyrion was born.
At this point, Do the Starks even matter?
It feels like House Stark is coming along at the seams in terms of the war and the politics. I like them; they fight with honor and generally good intentions — I could argue that for Robb's recent actions being similar to Bolton's thinking, but I still find him very likable — but it feels like they are having no lasting impact or their good nature has no lasting impact in Westeros. Is that to mean that honor and good people have no place in this world? Its like the author doesn't think much of heroic types.
- I wouldn't say that. I'd say he just has a realistic idea of how far honor alone can really get you in a cutthroat world like this. It would be nice if people could succeed and be happy simply by being completely good and honorable. But the sad truth is that sometimes (emphasis on sometimes) you have to get your hands dirty. And in this world people who refuse to dirty themselves when necessary often end up dead. Sad, but true. The series is in large part a tragedy. And tragic things happen in tragedies. And the story isn't over just yet. Robb's fate is known to those who read the books, but Arya, Sansa, Bran, and Rickon are still alive, and Jon Snow's fate is unknown. And there are plenty of other honorable characters to choose from. Even Daenerys is a good and honorable person (as Jorah says, she has a gentle heart). Hell, even Stannis is an honorable person in his own way (the torture and burning of heretics aside). And there are other characters yet to be introduced who will play a big impact. It remains to be seen how good and honorable they will be.
- I feel the need to bring this up again over what just happened. Now I'm starting to think that the Starks never mattered. At all. They were simply a scapegoat in order for the fans to relate to-good, righteous and well-meaning human beings in this den of vipers — and they just get completely destroyed with the wedding scene — like some fantasy version of The Godfather and the Baptism scene. It feels to me like they just serve no purpose, and are meant to die.
- Personaly I likens it to the story of the frog that are put in the boiling pot and jumps out and the frog that is put in the lukewarm water that gets hotter and get boiled. "Hey, here is your magical fantasy land filled with wonder and mysteries. Everyone is a complete and utter bastard except the dwarf and maybe the incestious spawn of fantasy-Caligula".
- Whether or not the Starks matter is a question that requires a spoiler answer, so if you want to know, continue reading; Whether or not the Starks matter depends on whether or not the White Walkers end up actually being the main threat. If they do, that means the war, the politics, the Iron Throne and those fighting for it — all of that is pointless and it's the magical, fantastic aspects that really matter. In which case Brann, Jon Snow, and Catlyn(who will be ressurected as a zombie by Thoros), and possibly Arya will come in to play as the major forces. If, however, the White Walkers and dragons all turn out to be a gigantic red herring and it was the politics that were important all along, then no, the Starks don't matter and never did. The closest thing to a contender they have in that fight by book five is Sansa, who's being raised by Littlefinger at that point — some people think she's learning from him and will surpass him as a magnificent bastard. I think those people are kidding themselves, but that's just me. My personal opinion is that the white walkers are a red herring that will be defeated easily and that the ultimate point of the series is to say that magic is irrelevant, just a fantasy of days gone by, and that the human side of it is what actually matters — which is the complete opposite to what many people think, but it's a divisive series.
- The series isn't over yet. The Starks per se, as a warring force, have become an extinct house. Doubly so because with the exception of perhaps Rickon there's nobody to inherit the family name, as Jon is a bastard and Bran is crippled. But they remain a huge source of loyalty for the houses of the North, even more so now, what with the death of Eddard the great and honourable councilor and the unjust massacre of Robb. And the rest of their members are currently in a bad situation but everyone that reads the book knows that the Stark children begin a slow ascension to universal badassery that will probably take the full 7 books to completely hatch. So, basically, yes they matter, but not in the way the Lannisters matter. The Starks matter because they are slowly becoming folk heroes and a legendary house.
- Would you care to elaborate on how, in any way, they can be badass? Ayra, I can understand. Rickon appears to not be entirely there. Sanza, I can understand because of who she's near and learning from. Bran? Yeah, he's a cripple. Not much coming from him.
- You mean Bran who Possesed a huge hulking man to break a guy's neck with his bare hands? Nope, no potential for being a badass there.
- Can't be elaborated on without book spoilers — go read the pages on A Song of Ice and Fire (or the books themselves) if you really want to know. But if you think being crippled is a barrier to power...
- Given the historical inspiration of ASoIaF is the Wars of the Roses, an apparently "extinct" House can prove surprisingly resurgent if conditions come right. Edward IV pretty much extinguished the House of Lancaster by killing off Henry VI and his son, until his successor, Richard III managed to piss off enough people that the distantly related (via the female line and a line officially barred from the throne) Henry Tudor became a viable candidate for the throne and after winning at Bosworth became Henry VII (obviously, that's simplifying a lot). My unspoiled guess is that John Snow will be the last surviving Stark and take the Henry VII role while Tyrion will be the last surviving Lannister and take the Richard III role (at least until The Plot Reaper kills either of them), although they'd each be in the "wrong" House (since Stark=York and Lannister=Lancaster).
- It's explicitly said in the book that "House Stark has fallen", which is quite an accurate assessment given the fact that both the Starks and their most important allies, the Tullys, have been driven from power, usurped by their respective [[Starscream]] houses, and with all their important members either (supposedly) dead or captured. So both the third book and the third season mark a low point for the "good guys" of the series. But while the Starks themselves may not matter anymore for the time being, it's not as if they're the only problem the bad guys have.
If one half of northern army is composed of Karstark soldiers, why do the Starks control the North and not Karstarks?
- One of the weirdest scripting decisions is to say "half" where they could have easily said "a third" or "a quarter" and get basically the same effect. One might call this an Adaptation-Induced Plot Hole; the show has done little to establish the Stark bannermen other than Bolton and Karstark (except for the Umbers, who seem to have vanished); the army lacks the Mormonts, Glovers and Manderlys of the novels. Further, in the novel, it would be outright impossible for them to "return north" since the Ironborn have closed the Neck; they continue to serve in the army, but begrudgingly.
- But to address the original question, the Great Lords are always outnumbered; this is why they need sworn houses. Still, half the army is excessive. Perhaps the notion is that the Karstarks committed more heavily to Robb's army than the other houses.
- Maybe the "half" thing is an exaggeration? So, the Karstarks aren't half of the army, but it's still a big enough number that they'll be missed. Personally, I find it weirder that Robb thinks of going back to the Freys for support, who now have a qualm with him, rather than asking for help in the Eyrie, where he has a family member with a grudge against the Lannisters ruling.
- In the book the idea is raised and shot down just as quickly. Lysa is unhinged and very unlikely to entertain any such offer to take her troops out of the Vale. Plus she plans to gain a lot by staying neutral while the other Houses batter themselves bloody. Robb asks if she'd allow his army to use her ports to bypass the Neck, but Brynden Tully (who left the Riverlands to serve Lysa when she was married) tells Robb that she's become so paranoid she would not allow an army to pass into the Vale even if it was led by her nephew.
- There is a possible handwave and it is that Karstark's aren't half of Robb's total forces but half of the forces that are at Riverrun. Such a lose would cancel whatever reinforcements he just gathered from Edmure (in the show continuity) and cripple any plans Robb had to wage war from there. While we see soldiers from different houses marching with Robb to Riverrun, the only lord that seems to accompany him there is Karstark so most of that army could be Karstark's while other lords are deployed elsewhere (like how Bolton's seem to be the only ones left manning the area around Harrenhal, for example).
In the book Sansa was promised Loras' brother (or such) by the Tyrells, because Loras himself is in Kingsguard and cannot marry. Yet here first she and then Cercei are meant to marry Loras himself. Did the rules change?
- In the TV series, Loras is not on the Kingsguard, at least not yet. He was on Renly's Kingsguard, but in the eyes of Joffrey's rule that is not a real position. Jaime will probably be the one to give Loras a place on the Kingsguard when he gets back, as a way to "save" Cersei from the marriage.
- From a more meta perspective, the book had so many characters that it was confusing to follow along even with the family trees made available. The TV show is trying to make it easier to follow along by excising certain characters that don't have a real effect on the plot.
- Tywin and Olenna's conversation makes it explicit that Loras is Mace Tyrell's only son in the show.
Olenna and Tywin's showdown
Why does Olenna feel intimidated to put Loras in King's Guard. Can't just Loras refuse? And, come to think of it, Tywin and the Lannisters in general aren't in a position to make threats. Most of their forces have been wiped out by Robb. Who is at their doorstep. They barely managed to hold out against Stannis, mostly due to the Tyrells, who supply them and King's Landing with menpower, supplies,food and working stuff to keep fighting the war and survive the winter. Not to mention all the loans. Couldn't just Olenna threaten to withdraw that support? Or worse, support the Starks or Stannis instead?
- Tywin is using the same ploy that Aerys Targaryen played on him decades ago, naming Jaime to his Kingsguard simply to rob him of an heir. Being named into the Kingsguard is an honour that you won't just lightly refuse, as doing so would cast doubt on your loyalty to the realm and seriously damage your status in the court. As for the rest, the Lannisters still hold the strongest claim to the Iron Throne, and switching sides again in such short notice would mark the Tyrells as deceptive turncoats for generations to come. Stannis wouldn't have them back if they tried and they have no common cause with the North, anyway. They have cast their die and most play with what they've got. And King's Landing owes Highgarden no monetary debts, only the foodstuffs that were brought as a gift, a sign of their goodwill and proof that they no longer support Stannis. Tywin himself is the crown's greatest individual debtor, though it owes even more to the Iron Bank of Braavos.
- Tywin made it seem more like he would order Loras to join the Kingsguard, not that he would make an offer.
- I don't believe Tywin (or anyone, really) has the authority to order Loras into the Kingsguard. It's not like the Night's Watch which can be a punishment, it's a high honor and requires forswearing all other loyalties. I think the implication was that he would tell everyone Loras agreed to be Kingsguard, which would leave him with the Morton's Fork of accepting this "honor" or being accused of oathbreaking.
- Tywin is Hand of the King, which means he's charged with carrying out the King's authority whenever the King isn't involved or indisposed. And considering that Joffrey's too busy playing Does This Remind You of Anything? with his crossbow (including poor Ros) and not really bothering himself with the affairs of State, that means that yes, indeed, Tywin has the authority to order Loras to the Kingsguard.
- I agree with most of the things said here but I can't really see how the Tyrells changing sides would make them look like turncoats. I mean Tywin, as much as I like him, did the same thing during Robert's Rebellion didn't he? He chose a side when the war was already decided, approached King's Landing under the false pretense of being ally and then proceeded to to sack the city. The Tyrell's could reasonably do the same. I mean, they have like 20,000 men stationed in the city and the largest army on Westeros. Lannister ranks are already decimated by the war. The can just sack the city, kill the royal family and decapitate the Lannister leadership. What's better than having control of both the fields of the Reach and the mines of the Westerlands? Not to mention that dealing Joffrey and Co. could bring them to good terms with Stannis. And it's not like Tywin isn't trying to slowly impose himself on them.
- The Lannisters only switched sides once to join forces with a politically popular rebellion against the Mad King. And no one but Robb Stark has the armies or the cajones to publicly question Tywin's honor and live to tell about it. The Tyrells got away with switching sides once. They won't get away with it twice. And they definitely won't get away with crossing Tywin Lannister.
- Loras would probably jump at the opportunity of joining the Kingsguard without thinking twice (rather like Jaime did back in the day). He loves being a knight, and they're the paragon of knighthood on Westeros. He's gay, so he wouldn't mind the no-marrying vows. Tywin just needs to ask him, and Olenna certainly knows it. As for the possibility of the Tyrells betraying the Lannisters for Stannis... That wouldn't work. Stannis is so honour-bound he'd probably want to punish the Tyrells anyway, for turning their backs on him not once, but twice (first with Renly, then with the Lannisters). The punishment might take a while to come, but it would certainly do. We're talking about a man who cuts the fingers of a smuggler who just saved him and his entire castle from starving to death. Furthermore, even with the Lannisters being weakened, Tywin still has a very powerful reputation. You don't want the next Rains of Castamere to be sung about your family. All in all, the Tyrells are better off playing with the side that's winning so far.
The Red God and "Valar Morghulis"
In the preview to "The Bear and the Maiden Fair" Berric Dondarion mentions that "the Red God is the one true God". Jaqen H'ghar said in the last season that Arya stole three deaths from the Red God and they must be given back. When they meet in "The Climb", Thoros of Myr and Melisandre greet each other with "Valar Morghulis" and "Valar Dohaeris", the words that the Faceless Men use as passwords. Now is this meant to indicate that the Faceless Men and the Red Priests worship the same god? Because as far as I can remember there is no kind of indication of that in the books. In fact it seems to be the opposite; the Faceless Men revere death, while the Red Priests are devoted to holding it back. Is this meant to be a major departure from the novels, or what?
- The Faceless Men believe that all gods are one god, the god of death, which would include the Lord of Light. Jaqen used that particular name because Arya saved them from death by fire. He said the same thing to her in A Clash of Kings.
- So to further illustrate, if they had been traveling by ship and Arya stopped their cage from sliding off the deck and into the ocean, Jaqen would have said she stole three deaths from the Drowned God.
- The use of Valar Morghulis and Valar Doheiris as greetings seems to have been changed in the adaptation, from being indicative of association with the Faceless Men and their faith in the books to being a more general greeting among the Valyrian-influenced cultures of Essos in the TV series (as demonstrated by the exchange between Missandei and Daenerys in Walk of Punishment). Otherwise the writers either know something we don't or the plot of the books and the TV series have seen their most dramatic divergence yet.
- The exchange between Missandei and Daenerys happened in the book, as well.
- If I recall correctly, the "valar morghulis" expression is common in all the Free Cities, as is the "valar dohaeris" answer. The "password" of the Faceless Men is not the expression itself, but the iron coin Jaqen gave Arya coupled with the expression.
Why did the Targaryens start to practice incest?
I first thought it was because they wanted to protect their divine royal blood Ó la The Egyptian Pharaohs, but Aegon The Conqueror was already married to his sister-wives before he became king. So how and why did it start?
- Maybe they already practiced it long before that. They were, after all, Valyrian nobles weren't they? And considering that Valyria was this world's version of Rome....
- ...perhaps they were vanished to Dragonstone because of that, in the first place.
- The Targaryens went to Dragonstone of their own volition, to escape the upcoming Doom of Valyria. They practiced incest probably to protect their traits. Silver hair and purple eyes are probably recessive to everything else, and it helps their feeling of superiority towards the "foreign" Westerosi.
- It's mentioned in one chapter of A Clash of Kings that the incest was traditional Valyrian practice. They probably kept it after conquering Westeros (even though they went as far as abandoning their religion to better blend in) in order to keep their racial purity, though.
- They were also the last Valyrian nobles for a full century before invading Westeros, so they had reasons to protect the bloodline even then.
- "Keep the bloodline pure" was also the reason/excuse in Ancient Egypt with similar results. Pharaohs were not allowed to marry a woman of a lesser rank.
- Short answer: they were from an almost extinct culture and were trying to preserve their customs and their ethnic traits.
- The books do a better job of hinting at this but basically the Targaryens are desperate to preserve their genetic superpower of bonding with dragons, which the Valyrians were obsessed with even before 90% of them were killed in the Doom of Valyria. In fact, among Daenerys and Viserys' direct ancestors only Aegon IV "The Unworthy" (a.k.a. Maester Aemon's great-grandfather) and Aerys II "The Mad King" married incestuously following the extinction of the dragons. (Jaeherys II is a third instance, but he's omitted from the show canon.)
Why does Robb think it's a good idea to attack Casterly Rock?
I mean, Tywin and all the other top Lannisters plus Joffrey are currently on King's Landing so the war will most likey keep going. Not to mention that the Westerlands are very close to Tyrell territory. The'd just sent a large force to retake the home of their allies. Is he hoping that the loss of their HQ would make the Lannisters lose face and appear weak? Does he want to deprive them of their mines or wealth? Or just take hostages and demand the release of his sisters?
- Because Tywin would flip right the fuck out and send every single soldier under his, Joffreys and the Tyrells command to Casterly Rock in order to reclaim it. The man is a genius, but he has a enourmous blind spot when it comes to the Lannister name and it's legacy. He would never even consider sacrificing his home and name in order to give his Baratheon grand-son a firm claim to the rest of the kingdom.
- See? That's what I'm saying. It's a suicide mission. The Northmen would be crushed, and it's not like they'd have the time to cross the Riverlands and go to King's Landing which Tywin has left undefended. The Lannister armies would catch up on them. Can't really follow Robbs logic here.
- Sounds like a Batman Gambit to me. He takes Casterly Rock and when Tywin comes barreling down on him in a mindless fury he springs some clever trap.
- This seems likely. Robb has been pushing all the time for another massive battle after Oxcross, but Tywin and the Mountain just keep retreating and denying him that. This way they cause morale to go low in the Northern army, since the Northerners will think that they are doing nothing in the south while their homes get sacked by the Ironborn in the north.
- To me, the question is why didn't he think of this sooner? Attacking the Rock, raiding the mines and stealing as much gold as you can carry, putting the castle to the torch and burning Lannisport behind you as you take every ship they have and sail north to go kick the iron born out would have been my first move after Tywin's victory at the Blackwater.
- Robb's been doing that basically since the second season. The book makes it more explicit, but after the battle of Oxcross, he and his forces begin raiding the Westerlands by capturing gold mines and besieging fortresses in Ashemark and The Crag (incidentally, where Robb is injured and falls in love with Jeyne Westerling, who he marries in the book).
- I am aware of his basic book strategy, and really this could be applied as a headscratcher to the books as well. The main reason Robb's victory over Jaime at Riverrun was so devastating was because it left nothing between him and Casterly Rock with Tywin's army's attention divided between him and the Baratheon brother's moving on King's Landing to the south. Though now I'm thinking it might have been the Frey men abandoning him that made that impossible, but in the show you don't have that, or at least not explicitly. If he had gone after Casterly Rock right after Tywin moved against Stannis, then he'd have taken it before the Karstarks abandoned him, he'd still have the men, and he'd have the Rock and all the wealth the Lannisters keep there. Would be a much stronger position than he holds now, at any rate.
- Well, the reason his victory over Jaime is so devastating is because he shatters half the Lannister army and takes Tywin Lannister's own son hostage, while simultaneously freeing up the Riverlords to join their forces with his. He didn't have a clear shot to Casterly Rock because the fortress at the Golden Tooth stood in the way and Ser Stafford Lannister was building up a force at Oxcross. Robb was only able to attack west in total surprise because Grey Wind scouted out a path that circumvented the Golden Tooth. The reason he never struck at Casterly Rock was likely because he didn't have the strength to do it, even with the Karstarks and the Freys. He would have to either lay siege to it and starve it out (which can take years and might not be possible since the Starks lack a fleet to blockade the Lannister's ports) or take it by storm. Robb's victories against the Lannisters are both surprising and major because of his ability to attack with few losses. The Northmen are outnumbered, which is why Robb can only twiddle his thumbs while waiting for a chance to strike. What he was looking for was an opportunity to draw Tywin Lannister into a battle where he could not overwhelm the Northern forces (specifically, by raiding the Westerlands and luring Tywin's force out to be trapped between Robb and Edmure).
- Robb states his plan pretty clearly: he's going to re-motivate his forces by giving them a sense of purpose again. He's going to go after Casterly Rock because it's a big target and would be a huge morale victory.
- Rob probably realises he can't take Casterly Rock with the forces at his disposal, but he's never lost a battle. By threatening the Lannister homeland, he forces Tywin to meet him in battle, which given his track record to that point Rob had a reasonable chance of victory. He doesn't need to actually capture Casterly Rock (though obviously that's better), just look like he might to inspire people to join his side and abandon the Lannisters.
Did the Boy lead Theon back to the exact same torture chamber he left or one in a different castle?
- Well it was an identical room. We're obviously supposed to assume it's the same place.
- If it is the same place, how did Theon not notice he was going back to it?
- He had just been tortured and nearly raped. He was stressed, traumatized, and not paying attention to where his "rescuer" was taking him.
- Theon left the castle at night, and was told to go east. He returned by day, with The Boy leading him through a different route (and in the last part, under the ground). Thus why he didn't get that it was the same castle.
- Theon also mistakenly thought it was Deepwood Motte, despite knowing that — true to name — that castle is located many miles away, in the thick Wolfswood.
- Deepwood Motte is a rather isolated and unimportant castle, Theon probably knows about it, but not what it actually looks like. He also has no idea of where he is, as the trip to the Dreadfort no doubt took an equally long time and he was likely blindfolded.
Just out of morbid curiosity, would having molten gold poured on your head like this really kill you, let alone in mere seconds? The gold barely covers the upper part of his head, so it couldn't be suffocation, and neither does it burn all the way through (I think). So, what does he die from, just a pain shock?
- The heat would have conducted through his head and made his brain boil in his skull in the matter of seconds. Molten gold is hot.
- There is no way in hell that that pitifull fire would be able to melt gold and rise it to the desired heat, but that is neither here nor there.
- The fire didn't melt the gold. Drogo's rage did.
- Actually, you'd be surprised how hot a simple fire can get. Even candles can reach 1,000 degrees Celsius in the right conditions. A well built campfire can easily reach over 1,000 degrees Celsius and the melting point of gold is 1,064 degrees Celsius. Sure, the belt wouldn't have melted that fast, but I'm sure viewers didn't want to watch a gold belt melt in a pot for a couple hours.
- For the original poster, pouring 1,000 degree Celsius metal onto somebody's head is like sticking their head in front of a massive blowtorch. Chances are, underneath that gold dome, Viserys's head is scorched down to the bone, and probably through it at points.
- It's said that Genghis Khan once executed a man by pouring molten silver or lead into his ear. So yes, it is something that can kill you very quickly.
What happened to Lancel?
I know it's a minor one but he just short of....disappeared after Blackwater. Did he return to Casterly Rock with his father of what?
- When we last saw Lancel, he was wounded during the siege. He's presumably recuperating through most or all of Season 3.
- Spoiler-free preview: Rest assured that Lancel is still around and (assuming the show continues his plotline from the books) he will play a small but crucial role in certain future events.
Why take Gendry back to King's Landing?
Why and how did Melisandre take Gendry back to where he left from? It's a long detour and a great risk for them both, just to reveal his father's identity.
- At first I was confused about whether that was King's Landing or Storm's End (did Stannis even take it back in the TV show, by the way?), but either way it doesn't really make sense. I guess we'll just have to wait and see. Maybe they'll pull a "the spell needs to be cast close to the target" to justify this, but if that's the case Gendry and Mels will be travelling a lot in the next few episodes.
- It was King's Landing. They pass over the Blackwater Bay and you can still see the ships left from the battle. Dragonstone, Stannis' seat, is on an island to the northeast of King's Landing, so it's possible that they are either coming from the south — in which case they might need to stop for supplies — or they traveled from the Brotherhood camp to King's Landing to take a ship up to Dragonstone.
- Looking at the maps, it seems that Melisandre found Gendry somewhere around Higheart-Acorn Hall and took him to Dragonstone by sailing down the Blackwater Rush and passing near King's Landing in the process. She probably used the same route to travel to the Riverlands in the first place. The government of good ol'King Joffrey apparently can't, or does not care to inspect every boat that comes near the capital, unless it is as part of a hostile fleet.
Do the wildlings have boats?
...Because if they do, wouldn't it be a whole hellofva lot safer to go around the Wall instead of going over it? The boats wouldn't need to be that good, either. I understand why small skirmishing parties like the one Jon's in wouldn't do it; it'd take too damn long to get to the coast. But shouldn't Mance's army be on the coast as close to the Wall as humanly possible, making a bunch of ships? If they can't make them, maybe they could steal/buy them. Just have the raiding parties grab a few and come back. Either way, someone somewhere should be able to get around the Wall.
- The Seven Kingdoms have much better boats and ships than the Wildlings could ever hope to have. Remember that the only searoute around the Wall goes right past Eastwatch-by-the-Sea and anything but a small raiding party in the dark of the night would be spotted and unceremoniously sunk. The Wildlings are not sailors, so they have no means of controlling a larger ship even if they could get their hands on one.
- There have to be at least two routes. I assume Eastwatch is on the Eastern side, but there doesn't seem to be any problem with the west side. Again, I know it wouldn't be simple, but in the grand scheme of things, it would probably be easier than marching on the Wall and waging war.
- On the west side there are mountain ranges that prevent putting a proper harbour on the shore. And even if you did, you'd still have to conjure those ships from somewhere, along with the sailors. The Wildlings are poor, so they can't buy any. They are too numerous to steal enough without alerting the Kingdoms. Compared to all those problems conquering a single fortification and opening the gates so that everyone can pass through together and proceed as a unified army is the simplest plan with the greatest chances of success.
- Yeah, I guess when you put it like that, it does make sense. Maybe if they were a unified people with a bit more time to spare they could pull off a mass migration, but I guess going to war with the Wall is the easier option in this scenario.
- On the west side there is the Shadow Tower (not the westernmost Night's Watch fortification, but Westwatch-by-the-Bridge is said to be in unusable conditions), and Bear Island (home of the Mormonts, the family of the late Lord Commander and Jorah, Dany's companion), who supposedly deal with any attacks from that direction. It's way easier to use stealth to get to the other side, and attack from the south side of the Wall, since the Night's Watch fortifications are well known to have no way of protecting themselves from that direction.
- In the books: Yes. They do have boats. Sea-worthy boats capable of carrying enough men for a decent-sized raid against Bear Island. The only reasons why they don't even think to utilize them here is either down to that being retconned out of existence, or simply because they're idiots. The latter wouldn't surprise me given how contrived the Jon/Ygritte/Wilding subplot is.
- Wildling boats are mentioned by Osha in "The Rains of Castamere". However, Mance's plan is not merely to raid or even invade the North with an army, he wants to move several whole ethnic groups (all men, women and children) south of the Wall. Such a migration would require a time and a number of boats that the Wildlings don't have and therefore must happen over land. Bear in mind that these boats must be closer to canoes than Spanish galleons (which the Wildlings wuldn't have the technology to build).
Why is Robb bringing Talisa along to the wedding?
Isn't that going to rather offend Walder Frey? Yes, they've placated him with marrying one of his daughters to Edmure, but I doubt he's going to take Robb parading around the woman that he jilted another daughter for particularly well.
- Well she is carrying his child now. I imagine he feels even more protective of her than usual and doesn't want to let her out of his sight. And this is just a guess, but maybe he feels it'll be more upfront and honest that way. Instead of leaving Talisa behind like she's his secret mistress he brings her along as an open acknowledgement that he broke his promise. Also it gives Talisa a chance to make her own face-to-face apologies to Lord Frey.
- Since the show began, Robb has lost his father, his two sisters, his three brothers, his best friend, his closest allies, and his greatest triumph was undone by his mother. Talisa is virtually all he has left, I'm surprised she isn't physically tied to his hip.
- Frankly, the one thing that is more Robb Stark than to sacrifice a political marriage in order to marry his one true love is him then owning it. Yes, he did indeed marry his lover despite his earlier promises to marry a political ally. After this treason he drew a line in the sand — from that point on that he married Talisa he will always treat her as His High Queen no matter what since anything less than that would dishonor him, her and their vows.
- This is probably the best explanation for it. It's still a pretty significant departure from the books, however, where he refuses to take his new wife along to keep from insulting the Freys further and to protect her from whatever insults they might dole out in turn.
- The simplest solution, because the show writers had given Rob a wife and made her pregnant. He was set to die at the Red Wedding and for the sake of the story, they could not possibly leave an heir. She had to die.
What the fuck is the damned point of that torture Theon goes through?
It adds nothing to the plot, if anything, it probably slows it down. It seems to exist for no other reason than to drive home how dark and edgy ASOIAF is. And for God's sake, what kind of sadistic retard watches this crap
? These scenes added nothing in the book, and they add nothing here either. The only reason they had for existing in the books seems to have been to sideline Theon indefinitely until GRRM decided what to do with him 3 damned books later.
I have no issue with suffering, my favorite setting is Warhammer. But I like it when it at least serves a damn purpose.
- It's there so that Theon doesn't vanish from the show for so long that the viewers forget who he was when he reappears. Their purpose is to both underline what an insanely sadistic monster Ramsay Bolton is for the coming seasons where he plays a bigger role, and what it takes to almost completely destroy Theon.
- Assuming they decide to follow the books on the boy's role, outlining what a monster he is is pretty redundant. Considering almost everything he does later on is so ridiculously over the top it actually veers into being too hard to take seriously. His next exploits consist of having a woman raped by dogs and flaying a group the Not-Really-Vikings when using Theon as an ambassador. So, I'm not sure how you could say he takes a 'larger role' because he mostly existed in the books as a satellite to Theon's ad Roose's stories. I'm not sure how good a reason that is.
- Presumably, it's going to be to make a major plot twist when the boy's name and heritage is finally revealed to the audience.
- Oh, who the hell can't see that those two are connected somehow? Which other character on the show is a dead-eyed James Bond villain with a fetish for flaying people?
- Anyone not familiar with the books. Besides, Roose hasn't flayed anyone and hasn't done anything to make the audience think he's at all like a villain. In fact, he's been pretty sympathetic; giving Robb advice and apologizing to Jaime and Brienne for their treatment by his men. He mentions flaying once, as a suggestion, and never again after Robb tells him no.
- Roose also mentioned when suggesting to retake Winterfell that he'd send his bastard to lead the force. Guess who was leading the Northmen when they attacked Winterfell?
- The way he's been built up in the books, he's going to be a pretty major antagonist for the last two, so calling him a 'satellite' doesn't really cut it. The series just begins introducing him early on. Maybe he'll replace some other character in the show, as well?
- The reasons for those scenes, the way I see it, are three. First, it allows Theon to keep appearing, instead of being assumed dead and then showing up out of nowhere three seasons later. Second, It allows us to see how Theon will become so broken, without the book's advantage of letting the readers experience his thoughts, since that's how we get all of the information about the torture in there. And third, it allows us to see how much of a bastard (on the figurative as well as the literal sense) Ramsay is, without resorting to other people talking about him in casual conversation, a method that is much more effective in written media than in a TV show.
- The show loses Ramsay forcing his wife to eat her own fingers and all the horrible things he did as Reek(which still happen, of course, only it's Dagmar). These scenes are much more about Ramsay than they are about Theon, but there is a point in completely breaking down Theon.
- "These scenes added nothing in the book" These scenes aren't in the books. We see some of Ramsay's mindgames first-hand, but the more grisly details of Theon's mutilation are largely repressed memories to which we only get oblique references. As pointed out above, that device doesn't work on TV, so they have to get a bit more graphic with it. The whole thing about his castration is a good example; the explicit fact "Ramsay cut Theon's cock off" is never stated in the books, we just get a lot of lines about him "not being a man" and "losing fingers and toes and... the other thing".
Is Tywin unaware that Arya is missing? Does he not care? What?
- By this point in the books she's missing and presumed dead by Lannisters, who are keeping up the fašade that she their prisoner.
- Tyrion knows. Cersei knows. The entire Small Council apparently knows. If Tywin, the Hand of the King, didn't know Arya was missing I for one would be flabbergasted.
- The same could be said about Cersei and Jaime's incest, and yet, here we are. That being said, yes, I'm sure he does know, it just doesn't matter anymore; it stopped mattering the day Cat set Jaime loose.
- Cersei and Jaime's incest is something Tywin has chosen not to believe. He can't "choose" to believe that Arya is a captive in the Red Keep, because she clearly isn't there.
- The entire court must know that by now. Sansa is always seen walking around in the castle, after all, so it's not like Arya wouldn't be allowed the same liberties (even though she'd probably be a little more heavily guarded, being more uncontrollable). And one of the things Robb really failed with as a wartime king was having a decent network of information, or he'd probably know by now too.
"Doesn't matter which Lannister"
- During Tyrion's and Sansa's wedding, Joffrey tells Sansa that he might get her pregnant because it doesn't matter which Lannister does it. Does that mean he has accepted not being a Baratheon?
- It's probably just that he associates much more with his mother's family than his supposed father's at this point, since the Baratheon bannermen are currently his enemies while the Lannisters are his faithful supporters. He has been introduced in formal occasions many times as "Joffrey, of the houses Lannister and Baratheon". That would probably have happened anyway, regardless of his true heritage, since Tywin specifically wants to establish a Lannister dynasty on the throne, even if he has to mix up the standard naming conventions in the process.
- Joffrey officially identifies as Joffrey of the Houses Lannister and Baratheon, First of his Name", and his personal sigil is a Lion and Stag standing together as equals. As far as he's concerned, he's both; whichever suits him better at the time.
- The Lannister side of his family has been the largest influence. His grandfather, mother, uncles and their various attendants, retainers and hangers-on have been in his life constantly. Even if Robert had been a perfectly attentive father, Joffrey's uncles Stannis and Renly are the only other Baratheons alive and none of the brothers are especially family-oriented. That means Joffrey never had a strong Baratheon influence on his life. Note that even way back in the first season Joffrey's sword is named "Lion's Tooth".
- The context of that spoken line doesn't say anything about Baratheon influence. Joffrey was at a Lannister's wedding. Even if he identifies more with his Baratheon influence, he wouldn't say "Doesn't matter if it's a Baratheon". That doesn't make sense. It's a Lannister wedding, and he's half Lannister (at least by title).
Half Robert, half lowborn?
- When he first sees Gendry, Stannis identifies him as half Robert, half lowborn. How exactly does he identify the 'lowborn' part?
- It's probably just a very accurate guess, Stannis would know of any noble bastards that Robert might have sired (like Edric Storm who was cut from the show) and he knows that Robert had sex with pretty much anyone he could. Gendry is also dressed in common clothes and his demeanor is submissive when meeting a noble. Other features like signs of malnutrition or heavy physical labor might be noticeable from a quick glance.
- You know how some Jews say they can tell if someone is Jewish just by looking at them? Similar thing here. Because high-borns rarely have children with low-borns it creates segregated gene pools. Over time, high-borns would gradually cultivate distinctive traits (i.e. blond hair for Lannisters and black hair for Baratheons) that set them apart from low-borns and from other noble families. With some clever guesswork and a strong education in noble genealogy, a person could theoretically tell a low-born from a high-born by sight alone.
Myrcella and the Martells.
- It may be a little too late to ask but it always bugged me. In Season 2, when Tyrion arranged for Myrcella to be shipped off to Dorne and marry Trystane Martell for her safety, Cersei seemed very sad and angry about it. If it meant so much to her, to keep her daughter by her side, couldn't she just,being Queen Regent, cancel the whole thing and refuse to sent her?
- Not exactly. Tyrion was acting as Hand of the King at the time that imbued him with all the powers to act in the king's name. A marriage alliance with the Martells would be a big deal, and breaking such an alliance would seem arbitrary and insulting to the Martells and would damage relations between them and the Iron Throne for years to come, perhaps enough to get them to support one of the rival claimants. Despite her headstrong attitude, Cersei knows that removing Myrcella from King's Landing and securing an alliance with Dorne is in the best interest of the realm and indeed her daughter.
- In the books, Cersei asked Tywin to cancel the engagement but he agrees with Tyrion that an alliance with Dorne is a good idea.
Roose and Jaime.
- Why did Roose sent Jaime back to King's Landing instead of taking him to Robb? Surely he doesn't have much need of the gold and the Dreadfort is way out of Tywin's reach. Doesn't he know that sending such a valuable prisoner and bargaining too would earn him the wrath of Robb and would cause some people to question his loyalty? Is this a hint that he is already in league with Tywin?
- He explained it rather simply; restitution for Jaime's maiming. In Westeros, you don't torture prisoners. Especially not high value prisoners like Jaime Lannister. Jaime had been cruelly mistreated and to make amends, he was given his freedom. Whether or not Robb would have allowed it is debatable, but he certainly wouldn't have allowed Jaime to have his hand chopped off to start with. Also, Roose knows the war's over at this point and that Robb's lost. He wants to make peace and get on Tywin's good side. The Dreadfort may be far out of Tywin's personal reach, but he could always hire a Faceless Man.
- I don't think it's an issue with torturing prisoners. This is the man who's coat of arms is a flayed man. I think this is rather the first glimpse we have of Roose's alliance with Tywin
- This isn't a matter of torturing prisoners, this is a matter of maiming the son of the most powerful man in Westeros. If He didn't let Jaime go and Tywin ever found out about it there is nowhere in the world that Roose Bolton could run where Tywin could not find him to extract vengeance. Even with his alliance with Tywin, if Roose had failed to send Jaime back, even to keep his cover, Tywin is the sort of man who would kill him just out of the principle of the matter.
Why not just sack Winterfell?
- I know Theon isn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, but why didn't he just raid Winterfell and leave? Maybe torch it to ground for good measure? There has to be some valuable stuff there, and it would most likely impress his father.
- Along with Theon being a bit of an idiot, he doesn't really think like an Ironborn: having been brought up among the Starks, his tactics are all based on straight-up warfare instead of the hit-and-run raids the Ironborn prefer; he thinks it's a sign of his worth to hold Winterfell and lord it over the surrounding area. Yara makes it clear that he should have grabbed anything valuable (Bran and Rickon included) and retreated ages ago, and actually gives Theon a chance to leave under her protection. Theon doesn't accept, thinking that retreating would be dishonorable, because - again - he doesn't get that the Ironborn aren't honorable warriors, they're pirates.
- It also doesn't help that Theon's main adviser throughout all of this is setting him up for a fall and giving him the worst advice he can.
- Theon's plan is explained a little more in the books. When he is given such a demeaning task by his father (raiding fishing villages or somesuch), he decides that the only way to truly demonstrate that he is a Greyjoy and not a Stark is to seize Winterfell. Not only is it a crown jewel of the North, but symbolically he will he severing all ties with his past. He assumes that once he has Winterfell in his possession, he can just write up Yara/Asha and she will back his play and commit her men to defending it. Of course when she refuses him then he's completely buggered, but he's got nowhere to go. He defied his father, burned his bridges with Robb, and figures the best he can do at that point is a glorious death. Then he is denied that too.
What is the reason behind Daenerys's immunity to all kinds of conduction?
Hot water, red-hot materials and a fully blazing funeral pyre? Is it ancestral magic? Does she have the blood of dragons? Someone tell me!
- It's magic and implied to be part of her Targaryen affinity with dragons.
- But none of the other Targaryens had this ability, Aerion 'Brightflame' drank wildfire thinking he would become a dragon and the result was not pretty! Plus, all non-ritualistic magic was pretty much extinct until the dragons were born again. This supports the fact that maybe the ancient Valyrians and therefore their ancestors had dragon's blood, as Doreah suggests to Viserys in S01 E04.
- I have had this pet theory that the Targaryen insanity isn't because of the incest but by them somewhat being human dragons. Some Targaryens get the immunity to fire and longevity (Danerys and Aemon) while others get the ferocity and Kill It with Fire-ness (Aerion, Aerys and Viserys)
- That wouldn't mesh with the plot, where Joffrey is pretty implicitly stated to be insane because he was a child of incest, whereas the Targaryen's not born of incest weren't known to be insane. That only some Targaryen's get these abilities (which according to a friend of mine who has read the book includes being ungodly strong) is no difference than Bran being the only Stark with magic animal powers. It's much easier to by that being The Dragon (which the series uses to label Targaryen's with the nifty powers, the last of which before the series started was Rhaegar) is a recessive genetic trait than the insanity which is stated in universe to be because of Brother-Sister Incest is actually some weird Dragon ability and it just so happens to cause similar symptoms to the insanity caused by incest.
- Or Joffrey is a sociopath because, you know, he is a sociopath. So is Ramsay Snow, and no one tries to explain it via his gene pool either. Just because some people try to explain it via his incestuous heritage doesn't mean it's an "implicit" fact. With the Targaryans there really seems to be some trait for insanity and/or sociopathy (those are not the same thing, by the way) running in the family, that may be exacerbating by their intermarriages. But for Joffrey it's MUCH easier explained by looking at his upbringing as the first son of Cersei (tells him the world specifically revolves around him and that non-Lannister lives are pretty much worthless) and Robert (boisterous, quick to anger).
- Brann isn't the only Stark skin changer/warg. All of the Stark children are wargs; on it's most basic level, this was demonstrated by their abilities to bond with their dire wolves. Brann's just the only one who puts real effort into developing this ability. Robb doesn't because he's busy with the war. Jon — who's the only other one who learns about it — doesn't develop it very much because he's more focused on sword fighting and also occupied with the white walker situation. Sansa and Arya lost their direwolves before they could develop their skills, and Rickon's six. So Brann's the only one who really gets the chance to develop the power that they all have.
- George Martin has apparently said that it was a one-time thing, her surviving the fire. In the book she isn't completely unscathed — her hair burns off — and it is somewhat implied that the act itself was magical, not just Dany. The Maegi tells her that with blood magic "only life can pay for life" and that seems to me to imply that burning her alive with the dragon eggs was the magic needed to bring the dragons back into the world. Whether or not it was necessary for the spell to work for Dany to be in the fire as well is unclear but that it was magical may explain how she survived.
- Well of course it's magic, we're not doubting the veracity of that. But 'where' does it come from. Dany seems to be an Adaptational Badass if there's such a large difference between the book and the show. Though it will be a very useful ability to have when the dragons grow larger and she needs to train them more extensively.
- I mean to say that the act itself was magic. Dany is not. It's possible, perhaps probably, that her survival was due to the magical nature of the act and not due to any magic she herself might be possessed of.
- In the book, yes. But there were plenty of other moments in the show which evidence otherwise. It can't merely be for the sake of foreshadowing, in Season 2 she tells the Spice King that she has prophetic dreams and Pyat Pree states that her mere presence acts as a lodestone to the dragons, increasing their power in her vicinity and also boosting the power levels of other magic users. I guess these powers skip quite a few generations!
- She has prophetic dreams in the books too. A few of the Targaryens did, historically. They're called "dragon dreams" for Targaryens.
- Thank you for the clarification but this still doesn't answer my original question of where the magic comes from if it has been confirmed at all and why Dany seems to have power in spades while her siblings were decidedly un-magical.
- I'm not sure if it's brought up in the TV show, but in the books it's suggested that their world is going through a phase where The Magic Comes Back: the Others being seen for the first time in millenia, dragons being born again, wildfire suddenly becoming more potent, etc. The other Targaryens, even the ones who commanded dragons, lived in a time when magic was fading out of the world, so it makes some sense that Dany could do things that they couldn't.
- Now that is a fascinating theory. Meaning that the Others may be bringing around their own demise by allowing magic to be born again to inadvertently combat them. Now this leads to another question that was on my mind. Mirri Maz Dur says "only death can pay for life." Well if that's the case, how could Dany re-animate three fossilized and in-animate dragons through the death of only one Magi?
- Maybe Equivalent Exchange is required for some backwoods hedge-mage like Mirri, but when dragons are involved the ordinary rules go out the window. Personally I think destiny is at play with all of this. Whenever Dany displays her weird ability to resist heat and fire she seems to go into some kind of trance, almost like she's being controlled by an outside force. And it seems awfully convenient that three dragon eggs just happened to drop into Dany's lap right when the Others were starting to return.
Daenerys and Viserys are way too pretty
300+ years of brother-sister incest, and the only side-effect is a tendency to go batshit insane. Go over to Royally Screwed Up
and take a look at Charles II of Spain. That was after about a hundred years of kissing cousins.
- Pretty much what is stated above. The Targaryens are pretty much the elves of Westeros, they are riders of dragons and develop bonds with them, are immune to fire, and possess an unearthly beauty. Years of incest won't have the same impact on them as it would on normal people. Look at the Lannisters, for example, Joffrey is only 2nd generation incest (Cersei and Jaime's parents Tywin and Joanna were first cousins) and is ugly as hell and mildly retarded.
- Joffrey supposedly is super-handsome, at least that's what's said in the book. While the Tagaeryen beauty can be handwaved away by their supernatural heritage, the far likelier explanation would be that GRRM didn't want genetics to get in the way of a good story.
- Well, YMMV on Joffrey's looks and I think his attitude's more due to psychopathic tendancies than retardation — and barring that, Jaime and Cersei were very fortunate in regards to their children. All things considered, the fact that the Targaryens are still in existence after all this sisterfucking is a good sign that they're no ordinary bloodline.
- Joffrey is sociopathic, not retarded, and he's considered handsome. The only one of the Lannister bastards that might be a bit simple is Tommen, and it's just as likely that he's merely weak-willed. Myrcella is stated to be very intelligent.
- So wait... when they started to issue tradition of Brother-Sister Incest... they were right?
- When it comes to preserving their magical heritage, most certainly. The question is whether it was worth it.
- The Targaryens didn't always practice incestuous marriage, either. It was very common, but there were a few generations where a daughter wasn't born so the sons had to marry outside the family, and princesses of Dorne (who are about as far from Targaryan genetics as you can get) were a popular choice.
- Historically, there have been members of the Targaryen and Blackfyre houses with deformities or mental retardation, and of course no one makes lists of the stillbirths and miscarriages, which are frequent enough in typical Westerosi families already and probably more so for the Targaryens. But yes, genetics might be a bit more forgiving in the World of Ice and Fire.
- Plus, it's not exactly impossible in real life, either. Cleopatra was the product of a long line of inbreds, and she was famously beautiful.
- Deformed inbreds are only deformed because they keep inheriting negative and cumulative traits that would get obscured with other material in the gene pool (a famous example is the "Habsburg jaw", of which Habsburg bastards like Don John and Juan Jose of Austria didn't have as much). If there weren't negative traits to be inherited in the original couple, then there is no reason for the products of repeated incest to be deformed. There is mention, however, of repeated insanity in the Targaryen line and (in the books) of sickly Targaryen kings that died young, so they didn't get scot-free for keeping it in the family, either.
- The Targaryen incest is somewhat overplayed. In thirteen generations, only six direct ancestors of Daenerys and Viserys married incestuously: Aegon the Conqueror, Jaeherys I, Prince Baelon, Princess Rhaenyra, Aegon IV, and Mad Aerys II, only the last of which occurred in the last 100 years and did not also contribute to the bloodlines of the current Baratheons and Martells.
Why are the Riverlands able to raise so few forces?
Seriously, canon tells us that the Riverlands are the second most populous and fertile region of Westeros. Their geographical location puts them in a place where they will always be on the ground between many wars and battles. You'd expect them to be very militarized since they've been invaded so many times and have little to no natural defenses. The riverlords should be able to raise at least 80,00-100,000 banners instead of a mere 20,000. Not to mention that they must be very densely populated since they are almost half the size of the Reach.
- They don't have any major cities like Lannisport or Oldtown.
- The Riverlands are much more rural. Further, the damage caused by the war prior to Robb's relief of Riverrun would have severely reduced their ability to call forces together. Jaime "smashed" the Riverlords' army at the Golden Tooth and scattered them before setting siege to Riverrun whilst the smallfolk have been put to the sword by Tywin's skirmishers and are fleeing the war south. When Robb arrives, they few thousand they can add to his forces are simply all that are left. The Riverlords could probably call up further levies, but that would seriously damage the Riverlands as an entity (someone has to stick around to take care of the crops, after all).
- It probably has to do with the historical and geographical status of the Riverlands. They are not one of the Seven Kingdoms and they don't host any of the Wardens of the cardinal directions. As such they are not treated as a military power of their own like the other major regions of Westeros. If they were to actively arm themselves beyond what is reasonably required for self-defense with the expectation that the Iron Throne would back them in case of a conflict, they would be changing the balance of military power in dangerous ways.
- In the books that had forces but Edmure tells all his bannermen to return to homes and rebuild them after the Mountain burned much of their lands. So mostly Edmure doesn't understand war.
Why was Aerys's madness allowed to go as far as it did?
I know, because it is the premise of the series, but the more I hear about the awesomeness that was Rhaegar Targaryen it is seriously starting to bug me: Between the highly popular heir being of age and the political savvy off the reigning Hand Tywin Lannister, shouldn't it been reasonably easy to lawfully depose Aerys and have Rhaegar take over?
- It's never an easy process to depose the ruling monarch. When you open that door, it doesn't close easily, as the state of affairs in the series neatly demonstrates. Some lords would have joined Rhaegar, some would have remained loyal to Aerys and some would have taken the opportunity to declare independence or try to raise their own candidate to the throne. But at least in the book Rhaegar did in fact finally intend to do something to the dismal situation his father was throwing the Kingdoms in. Unfortunately he made this decision right before the Battle of the Trident.
- This question is not, however, without basis. Tywin or some other powerful player could have at least tried to poison Aerys and resolve the whole thing peacefully. It's not like it hasn't happened countless times IRL too.
- Random though fanfiction fuel: An Alternate Universe retelling of Hamlet with the Ghost being Aerys, Claudius being Rhaegar, Viserys being Hamlet and Ophelia being Daenerys.
- Rhaegar marries his mother?
- Rhaegar doesn't have to marry anyone, as long as his mother co-join him as Queen while being fully aware of what he had done. He can make Viserys his heir under the assumption that he and Daenerys would marry when they come of age — it was a thought that struck me when watching Patrick Stewart's Claudius: Other than killing Hamlet's father, who is hinted at being a warmonger, Claudius acts like a righteous man and king. So I started to figure out how Claudius could be a good guy. There is a lot of speculations amongst fans if Hamlet was playing mad or honestly being mad. So if we assume that killing Hamlets dad was absolutely the right thing to do and that Hamlet is genuinely crazy, it is easy to make Claudius the good guy who is desperately trying to keep his insane heir in check while trying to stop anyone from finding out what he did. So, a insane King that gets killed by a righteous family member who takes over the crown but who makes the old king's son his heir only for said heir to go insane and starting to kill everyone. What family does that sound like?
- By the time the situation was drastic enough to make killing a king seem like a good idea Aerys was utterly paranoid prepared to burn down all of King's Landing at a moment's notice. Not to mention that a King would have such things as food tasters to ensure nobody poisoned him. Plus Aerys was smart enough to hold hostages to keep their families in line (an example being why Jaime was kept in King's Landing while the other King's Guard went out and fought the war); if the Mad King gets poisoned what's to stop him from ordering the deaths of all his hostages out of spite?
- The strangler. That's what.
- Except he's paranoid to the nth degree and set up a massive powder keg of wildfire just to burn King's Landing to the ground rather than let Robert have it, organised by pyromancers who don't care if they go up in flames too. There doesn't seem to be that Perfect Poison in Game of Thrones ( Jon Ayrn apparently could have been saved from the poison that killed him had Pycelle not stopped the treatment) and you still have to find a way to poison the most well-protected man in the city without anyone realizing it and killing the hostages.
- Tywin — who more or less kept the Mad King in check during his stint as Hand — has no chance to play the long game if another Targaryen succeeds Aerys, what with the single bloodline. Chaos is indeed a ladder; with the Targaryens out of the picture, the Lannisters can marry into royalty and eventually become kings (e.g. Joffrey) and establish a dynasty, Tywin's explicit ambition.
- If Tywin is trying to establish a dynasty, he is not really doing a good job. Joffrey may be truly a Lannister but that's a secret that can never be revealed. It's House BARATHEON of King's Landing that rules the realm, not Lannister. Regardless of who is the power behind the throne, it's not the Lannister name that'll endure in the centuries.
- Joffrey officially identifies himself as "Joffrey of the Houses Lannister and Baratheon, First of his Name" and his sigil is already a lion and a stag.
- As much as Aerys is called the "Mad King", his time as a cruel and insane tyrant was significantly smaller than his time as a just, if a bit harsh, ruler. Most of the actions he's remembered for happen around the last five years of his twenty-one years reign, at which point people did take action, starting Robert's Rebellion. Tywin wasn't really the Hand anymore at this period of madness, being relieved of his position after the event that started Aerys's fall to madness, being kept hostage at one of his vassal's castle.
- Thing is the show has not elaborated much on that and gives the impression of Aerys being a hated tyrant almost since day one after so much interbreeding (Pycelle says he was a charmer, but he's unreliable about these things), the Sanity Slippage of the books and things going south after Tywin gets dismissed have not been stated yet onscreen, if I'm not confused (perhaps HBO bios and DVDs extras do provide this backstory). In any case, Tywin's is not a for-the-realm guy like Varys, he seizes a chance to depose the entire regime with his Cavalry Betrayal.
- It's worth mentioning that there really isn't a lawful way to depose a monarch. There's also the question as to whether or not Rhaegar would have been complicit in such a plan: mad or not, the king is the king and also his father (also Rhaegar is supposed to have kidnapped Lyanna Stark, setting the whole thing into motion). When Aerys' madness finally did become too much (burning his vassal alive and forcing his son to strangle to death) someone did do something — Robert, Jon Arryn, and Ned Stark allied with Hoster Tully and raised their banners in defiance. It's also implied that Aerys' madness was not so over the top until he started killing people. Before then, he was paranoid and muttered to himself all the time, constantly scratched himself on the Iron Throne, and let his appearance go. Other people ruled the realm in his stead and so he was fairly harmless.
- Well, looking at real history we have George III who went completely cuckoo and was thrown into a golden padded cell by his son who became the de facto ruler for nine years until George died and he was officially crowned. Why the hell didn't Rhaegar do exactly that?
- However that was still not exactly a legal deposition. It was not uncommon for rulers that were incapable for one reason or another to have a person to do the "real" ruling in their name. Aerys was a paranoid psychotic by the time he was killed and Tywin had indeed ruled in his name for a good stint and brought the realm to prosperity. The king just happened to reach his breaking point at the same time the rest of the kingdoms got fed up with him. Notice that everyone agrees it was a horrendous crime to murder Ned's father and brother but no one ever mentions anything Aerys did before then except that he started his descent into madness.
- In the books Rhaegar had told Jaime that once he returned from battle he would be making changes. Unfortunately, said battle was the Trident. Most likely, by the time he realized he needed to do something about the Mad King he also had a civil war on his hands. He chose to handle the latter, then the former and Robert caved in his chest before he could do either.
Gregor trying to kill Loras in S 1
Ok so i've been thinking for a while, Loras is (in the show at least) the only son of Mace Tyrll and hair to Highgarden. During the joust tourney the Mountain tried to kill him in a fit of rage, had he actually succeeded wouldn't that cause a war between Houses Lannister and Tyrell, since Gregor is Tywin's bannerman? The Mountain may be....The Mountain
but even he wouldn't let his temper cause a semi-civil war and how come only the Hound tried to stop him. There were many Lannisters there. Surely Cersei wouldn't want her House to suddenly find itself pitted against the second wealthiest and most populous House in the realm.
- Gregor totally is the kind of guy to let his temper get the best of him like that. He's a violent psychopathic maniac who can bulldoze most anyone else in a straight-up fight, and worse yet he knows it. Even if Tywin gives him up to the Crown for punishment (unlikely) Gregor can always request a Trial by Combat, and who could the Tyrells possibly send to beat him? IMO, killing Loras is unlikely to spark a civil war between the Lannisters and the Tyrells. The scene where Ned Stark calls Gregor and Tywin out for pillaging the Riverlands, while legally justified (perhaps), was an extreme action and was...not particularly smart from a political standpoint. The Tyrells know better than to confront House Lannister that way. As rich as they are, they have a poor chance of winning against Tywin Lannister in a full-scale war. They would more likely resort to subtler means of revenge, like poisoning Gregor and/or Tywin's food. As for why only the Hound stepped in to stop Gregor, I believe Cersei had left the tournament by that point (I can't remember if she came back or not) so she wouldn't have been in a position to stop him, and Gregor might not have listened to her anyway (he only barely stopped when King Robert himself ordered him to stop acting like a twat). The rest were in a bit of a shock at Gregor's actions so they didn't intervene, Sandor just snapped out of it before the rest of them. And also, notice how after Robert (who, again, is the King of all Westeros) ordered him to stop, Gregor just walks off cool as you please, and Robert tells everyone to let him go. Even though he just brutally assaulted the heir-apparent of House Tyrell. It seems everyone who knows The Mountain other than Tywin and The Hound adopts a strict "hands off" policy towards him. You don't try to stop him, you just get out of the way.
- You're right....this however brings up another issue. Why, why on Earth would anyone let this psycho walk around uncontrolled? Even Tywin, ruthless as he is, should be able to see that the man, useful as he might be, is a diplomatic crisis waiting to happen. He might be an undefeated and ridiculously strong but he has zero control over his temper and psychopathic tendencies and is nigh unbeatable. He won't hesitate to butcher anyone, who can guarantee that he won't attack the King in a fit of rage? Plus he is probably utterly hated by the smallfolk which means a lot of bad rep for House Lannister. Why Tywin hasn't killed this guy in his sleep yet, I can't tell.
- Firstly, Tywin doesn't let Gregor walk around completely uncontrolled. He commands The Mountain through sheer force of personality, and for the most part The Mountain does what Tywin tells him to. And even disregarding that, Gregor knows better than to run around killing people completely at random (so I guess in my first response I overstated things a bit, mea culpa). He attacked Ser Loras because he thought Loras was a dirty cheater whose tactics (distracting Gregor's stallion with a mare in heat) were a personal insult. Secondly, because if there's one thing about Tywin Lannister that absolutely everyone can agree on, it's that he does not give one single solitary FUCK about what other people think. As Tywin himself said, "A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of a sheep." Lannisters are Proud Lions and everyone else is a mere sheep, as far as he's concerned. They could be cursing Tywin's name from Dorne to the Wall, but so long as they continue to fear the wrath of the Lion he couldn't give a withered crap what else they think of him. In that respect, Gregor Clegane is a huge asset to Tywin. One might say The Mountain is the best weapon House Lannister has to terrorize the rest of Westeros.
- It's also likely they hadn't decided that Loras was the heir to Highgarden at that point. Gregor trying to kill Loras and the Hound defending him is one of the more iconic scenes from the books, so they had to keep it in. Just goes to highlight Gregor's rage in hindsight.
- "Even if Tywin gives him up to the Crown for punishment (unlikely)" If he publicly murdered the heir to a powerful rival house, in peacetime? Tywin would serve him up on a plate. He's not useful or important enough to be worth starting a war over, especially when he's obviously guilty.
Arya in King's Landing
Maybe this is answered in the books, but can anyone tell me why Arya even goes to King's Landing in the first place? Sansa I understand, since at the time she was supposed to marry Joffrey. But why did Ned drag Arya along too?
- Ned wanted Arya to learn how to be a lady at court and wanted the Stark kids to be closer with the Baratheon children. Bran was supposed to go too, before his fall. Only Robb and Rickon were going to stay in Winterfell with Catelyn.
- Also, Arya has to get married eventually, and taking her down to King's Landing afford her an opportunity to see and be seen by all the great families of the realm.
What is the state of House Baratheon right now
Has the 298 year old House Baratheon of Storms End ceased to exist? Has it been split between Stannis,Joffrey and Renly and into three new Houses? Does Renly's branch still exist after his death? Which one is the "true" House Baratheon? The one in Dragonstone or the one in King's Landing? Who is currently in control of Storm's End and, by extension, the Stormlands?
- It's less clear than in the books but here goes: The split branches of House Baratheon were not an official thing, really. Robert was technically the head of the Baratheon household but because he was king he gave Renly the Stormlands and Stannis Dragonstone because he needed Stannis' strength to hold the Targaryen seat. When Robert died, Stannis as the oldest brother (and Joffrey as a false heir) is the legal ruler of the Stormlands (but everyone likes Renly better so they don't pay attention) and he's the king. Had Renly bent the knee, Stannis' might have let him keep Storm's End. Now that Renly is dead, Stannis' is the legitimate ruler of the Stormlands. However, because most people don't know or don't care that Joffrey is not a Baratheon, he holds the legal right to the Stormlands and Storm's End. The book dedicates a small portion to Stannis' siege of Storm's End before he takes the castle. So, Stannis' is the lord of the Stormlands and Storm's End because he got them to side with him and not Joffrey, and king besides. However, the Blackwater has significantly eroded his power base so it doesn't really count for much anymore. Legally speaking, as far as most are concerned, King Joffrey is the new head of the Baratheon household and has the right to the Stormlands and Storm's End.
- This isn't a new idea. There have been in-universe splits before the Greystarks, Karastarks, and the Lannisport Lannisters come to mind. Usually after a few generations one of the branches would have alter there name and become a cadet branch of the main house. Instead because Joffrey being false heir we have this Succession War.
- Things are a little more complicated than that. Renly was the rightful lord of the Stormlands, because Robert named him so, as was his right as both lord of the Stormlands and king. Stannis was just crossed because he saw the act of skipping him in the line of succession as a personal insult, as Dragonstone, in his eyes, is much less prestigious than their ancient seat (and much less powerful too). Now, after Robert died, the kingdom should pass to Stannis (if the true nature of the princes was well-known), but at first the Stormlands would stay with Renly. Instead, Joffrey got the Iron Throne, and both the Stormlands and Dragonstone rose in rebellion.
- In the books Renly doesn't have his own sigil but he's the only Baratheon who uses the standard black on gold stag and is the actual ruler of the Stormlands. I think it was meant that he should continue the main branch while Robert's line would carry on the royal line. After Robert's death Stannis would be the royal line by default and Renly still be lord of the Stormlands. The difference is that Stannis would also be the head of House Baratheon as a whole at that point and could simply ship off Renly to Dragonstone if he really wanted to. It's even more confusing since the Targaryens were one house despite having Dragonstone as ancestral seat and reigning from King's landing.
- Just to say it: Robert was not an idiot when he gave his youngest inexperienced brother their ancestral home who would never in a million years rise up for any reasons and then gave his highly proven warrior of an older brother the newly-acquired ancestral (as in they lived there before Aegon jumped up on Balerion and screamed Attack!) home of the Targaryens. The fact that Stannis chose to use this as one of the ultimate reasons that he was shafted is everything you need to hear to know why Stannis is Stannis.
- Stannis is not a friendly guy but there's nothing in him that would have suggested he'd have risen in rebellion against Robert. Robert was Stannis' older brother and his version of the Rebellion has him say something to the effect of "the younger brother follows the older" and better explains why he was pissed off that Renly got the Stormlands and he got Dragonstone.
- The issue was never one of Robert having fear of Stannis rebelling. Granting Stannis Dragonstone instead of Storm's End was a decision with several things factoring into it; first and foremost, the houses(few as they were) that pledged loyalty to Dragonstone were hardcore Targaryen loyalists. Robert needed a man like Stannis — strong, unyielding, and unforgiving — to bring them to heel and keep them in line. Dragonstone was also the traditional seat of the heir to the kingdom — Targaryan brothers would rule it before the king had a son, sons would rule it before their royal father died. Giving Stannis Dragonstone, on paper, made him Robert's heir until Joffrey was born. However, there's another, less positive aspect — Robert never forgave Stannis for failing to capture Dragonstone before Viserys and Dany were evacuated, thus allowing the escape of the last two Targaryan heirs. Dragonstone, despite it's place of honor as the seat of the heir of the kingdom, is a very poor holding. It has very few bannermen, all situated on small islands, no suitable land for farming so no real income to speak of, and is just generally an unpleasant place to live. Contrast to Storm's End, arguably the greatest castle in the seven kingdoms and Stannis' childhood home, it's easy to see why Stannis would resent being stuck on a pile of obsidian out in the ocean. More than anything, because Dragonstone's so out of the way and commands so little power on it's own, it's just another sign, in Stannis' mind, of Robert brushing him aside. Stannis really does consider himself Dude, Where's My Respect? guy of the seven kindoms; he held Storm's End through a year long siege, he took Dragonstone, he crushed the Iron Fleet — but it's always been Robert and Ned who were the heroes, who got the credit, the praises. It'll give a guy a bit of a complex.
Daenerys: "Hooray! I've conquered Westeros and reclaimed the Iron Throne! ...Okay, now what?"
This question concerns Dany's goals and mindset. Lets assume that she completely succeeds in her stated goals. She invades Westeros with her dragons, deposes False!King Joffrey, and either destroys or brings to heel all the chief noble houses (lets also assume for a moment that the looming White Walker threat doesn't exist). First off, as a woman can she even claim the throne? As I understand it, except for Dorne all of Westeros follows a patriarchal succession system. Could she be Queen by herself or would she have to pick a nobleman to marry and rule beside her (above her?) as King (just imagine the infighting resulting from that
choice)? And what about an heir? I think I read somewhere that all signs point to Daenerys becoming barren after her dragons hatched. Even if she re-conquers Westeros for herself, who will succeed her? Now I know that there are other factors involved here (for instance, I'm aware that baby Aegon is still alive
). What I'm wondering is how Daenerys herself
sees this all going down, since at this point she's not aware of those other factors.
- Women are able to inherit in Westeros. The Targaryens fought a war to settle it once and the outcome was that all male heirs come before the female heirs, but because Dany is the last Targaryen she's automatically the heir to the throne. Dorne just practices a system in which female heirs are considered in the same line as men, so older females inherit before younger men. As far as an heir, Daenerys doesn't necessarily need to have a child to have an heir. She could simply name a suitable candidate as her heir, something that has real-world historical context and is not unheard of in Westeros (Jon Arryn planned to name either Ned Stark or Robert Baratheon as his heir before he married Lysa Tully). And anyone she marries would not be a king, necessarily. They would be a king consort or a prince consort — a king in name only with no real power to make the orders.
- Jon Arryn was NOT planning to have either of his wards as heir. He had an heir in Elbert Arryn, his nephew, who was killed at the same time as Brandon and Rickard Stark by the mad king. It would be silly to name someone not of the Vale as the heir as the Lords would surely take issue with it.
- First off, as a woman, can she even claim the throne? Yes, she can, by right of "Fuck you, I have dragons."
- I imagine she intends to do what most people in that situation would do. Rule till the day she dies while ostensibly making Westeros a better place at the same time.
More Unsullied questions
The Unsullied are a pretty awesome fighting force, no question about that. But is the Unsullied "model" (for lack of a better term) still sustainable now that they are no longer an army of slaves? Would Daenerys be able to train up more Unsullied without relying on the especially brutal Training from Hell
methods developed by the Good Masters, like the baby-killing ritual or the castration?
- I don't think she is planning to have any more, the whole "Give me the half-trained ones so I can replace the ones that falls" was pretty much an excuse so that the slave masters of Astapor wouldn't have anyone able to put up any resistance as she sacked the place. By the time enough Unsullied have fallen for it to be an issue she will have conquered enough cities to be able to raise an army by conventional means. See it as the Real Life version of cheating in a Total War game by starting with a fully stacked army of elite-units.
- The brutality of their training is designed to weed out humanity and make them automatons rather than people. You can still raise up future legions of highly skilled warriors like the Unsullied by using the original core body of troops as instructors. They can still instill discipline and skill at arms without puppy strangling and baby killing.
- Still, without breaking the humanity in the unsullied will they be as efficient? Without the lack of fear of death you just have their fighting skills, which from what I've heard is about as much as you can expect from people who were castrated before they could really get a strong build from the testosterone. Still, like it was said before by the time the Unsullied run out Daenerys should have enough volunteers to make up for it.
- They won't have the same fearlessness, true, but there's no reason to castrate them so they will be stronger on average. The Good Master describes the Unsullied as also training with pike, shield and short sword for hours every day until they've reached perfection so with as stringent a training regimen, you can still replace losses. They won't ever be as elite as Unsullied, but it would be smarter since it would be easier to replace losses (the Spartans upon which the Unsullied are partly based could not replace losses as easily due to their exacting standards and that led to their downfall more than once).
- The biggest problem with training new (half-)Unsullied is that... who would want to go through that training process? Dany's army is an army of free men, and the biggest point of how the Unsullied are made is that they have no choice on the matter. Even the Unsullied that are already fully-trained may be spoiled by their liberty (I think I recall the books mentioning that Unsullied hired as bodyguards on the Free Cities usually grow fat and lazy because they don't have such harsh life, so they aren't completely single-minded in their discipline). Still, she has 8000 badass soldiers, plus three growing dragons under her control, and that's already a quite fearsome force (if she manages to bring them to the right land).
- Probably the same number of people who want to go through modern day special forces training. Dany's growing nation is made up of freed slaves; people who have been weak and helpless and powerless their whole lives. They've just seen their masters — the people they've bowed and scraped for their whole lives — cower in fear before the strength of these Unsullied. I think the combination of a sudden lack of purpose in their lives and a wonderment at the unsullied's discipline and skill would make it look rather attractive.
Why didn't Ned legitimate Jon Snow?
This is a question that haunts me since 3x02 "Dark Wings, Dark Words". We had Catelyn in an open-hearted speech with Talisa for the first time and they're talking about motherly love, so Catelyn confessed she regrets mistreating Jon Snow and the breaking her oath to raise him like her own son. But if she begged Ned to legitimate his bastard and raise him as a trueborn son, considering the love that Ned has always has for his son, why didn't he legitimate Jon?
- Maybe for respect to Catelyn. He didn't want to hurt her though she was supposed to approve Jon's acknowledgement.
- Or maybe there's a Fridge Brilliance: Ned didn't because Jon is not his son.
- Doesn't legitimizing a bastard require royal writ? Ned might not have thought it a matter important enough to petition the king. Besides, Catelyn would hardly have wanted such a thing, as far as Ned knew, and Jon's upbringing didn't suffer from not being legitimized. In-universe, it's very rare that a bastard gets made a legitimate child — usually only if he's the last heir to his father's lands. Catelyn in the books even admonishes Robb for wanting to legitimize Jon as his heir, pointing out that a Targaryen king who did such inadvertently caused a massive civil war and several smaller conflicts as a result and that there is potential for quite a bit of trouble down the line if Jon is made a Stark officially.
- According to the Song of Ice and Fire RPG book (which has Martin's input) a King does have the legal authority to legitimize a bastard, which from the wording is something that is unique to a King. While Ned could get Robert to do it easily considering their relationship, Catelyn certainly wouldn't have liked it (at least from his perspective). As for the Fridge Brilliance above: There is the possibility that Jon is Lyanna Stark's and Rhaegar Targaryen's son, in which case Ned has a damn good reason not to draw anymore attention to Jon then he has to.
- Another subsequent Fridge Brilliance: if what is written above is true, this explains why in Season 1 Ned has sent Jon to the Wall despite life is hard there, that Ned wanted to please Catelyn, Jon wanted to keep as far away as possible from any court intrigue and the same time keep him away from his own origins. This is definitely why Ned was planning to reveal the identity of Jon's mother only after he had been sworn in as the Night's Watch, so any claim to the throne by Jon (if he decided to do something)would be nothing. Surely, he did it to protect it from Robert and the Lannisters but also from himself!
- We're going off topic here; the OP is asking why Ned didn't legitimize Jon after Cat begged him to; the answer is that she didn't. She specifically says that despite her prayers and promises to the gods that she would love Jon as her own son and beg Ned to "give him the Stark name", as soon as he was better she reneged and went back to resenting him and treating him with scorn. I'm sure that if she had asked Ned, he would have done so — having Jon legitimized as Jon Stark would have both honored his "son", whether he really is or not, and eliminated any possibility of him making claims to the throne — assuming Jon is the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar(which this troper personally does not believe), he still would have officially been Jon Stark, not Jon Targaryan, and any claim otherwise would have been highly suspect as the only people who could attest to it would be Ned(who wouldn't) and Howlen Reed, one of Ned's best friends and most loyal bannermen, which is about as far from an unbiased source as you can get. As it stands, Jon arguably had it better off as a Snow than he ever would have as a Stark, he was just too much of a self centered whiney little git to realize it. Got got raised in a castle, stone walls around him, roof above him, feather bed beneath him. Got an actual education, got proper combat instruction, got swords and armor — all the benefits of nobility without all the responsibility. He doesn't have to dress up for fancy balls and stand on ceremony, he can sit in the crowd and get drunk while his siblings are allowed only a glass of wine. And he'd eventually be allowed to marry any(low born) woman he wanted; he wouldn't be sold off to secure a political alliance like all his brothers and sisters would have been. As a noble born bastard, Jon Snow literally had the best lot in life anyone in Westeros could ever hope to have.
- In A Storm of Swords, Robb does want to legitimize Jon, but Catelyn points out the problems legitimized bastards like the Blackfyres can cause. Robb is sure he can trust Jon to never harm his heirs, but he can't say the same about Jon's sons or grandsons.
- Legitimising Jon wouldn't quite cause the same problems as the Blackfyres did, because Robb would legitimize him and name him his heir. The lack of explicitly naming a heir was the cause of the Blackfyre Rebellion, made worse by the King giving Daemon his family's sword, which many saw as a sign he was the favored son. Likewise, had Ned wanted to legitimize Jon, all he'd need to do to was to keep a clear succession line, and his sons would definitely obey it.
- Catelyn's fears were that once Robb had a son to be his heir, there was the chance that a legitimized Jon Snow or one of his offspring would attempt to press their claim by force, something that would be impossible if he remained a bastard.
- Her fears are ultimately baseless and stem entirely from her deepseated resentment of Jon. Robb's the older brother, and he and Jon actually had a very good relationship. Robb wouldn't have any more to fear from Jon or his sons than he does from Rickon and any potential kids he might have.
- Granted Catelyn's letting her hatred of Jon get the better of her, it still bears some serious thought. Making legitimizing Jon does create the potential for some serious political problems down the line.
- All it really creates is a new branch family. Not very different from the three different branches that would arise if Robb, Bran and Rickon were all to be married and have children, just with four branches rather than three.
- The only real potential threat comes from the combination of Robb both legitimizing Jon and naming him his heir; in the books, Robb plans on doing this because Jeyne isn't pregnant yet and Robb regularly puts himself in high risk situations. Presumably if Robb had lived he would have revoked Jon's status as heir as soon as a son was born to him. So the only problem that could arise is if Robb died before Jeyne gave birth. Still a few ways around that, but ultimately it wouldn't have been an issue as Jon's a good person who most likely would have chosen to serve as protector of the realm until his nephew came of age. But Cat hates Jon and is always going to see him as a threat to her sons and their birthrights.
- Isn't Jon older than Robb? Wouldn't legitimizing Jon mean putting him ahead of Robb in Winterfell's line of succession?
- Technically, yes, but Robb is already the king. Pressing his claim would require Jon to declare war on the beloved brother who is responsible for him having a claim in the first place — more than a little ungrateful. (But yes, Jon's son potentially claiming to have more right to the throne than Robb's son because his father was the elder of the two is exactly the kind of ugly situation Catelyn was warning him about.)
- How could Jon be older than Robb if Robb was conceived on Eddard and Catelyn's wedding night, and was born while Ned was at war. Whoever he had a bastard with would have to have been after riding to war, and he had only spent a single night with his wife.
- Unless, as the theory goes, Ned isn't Jon's father. In which case birth order is irrelevant.
- Yeah, Robb is older, if only by a matter of months.
- If what Arya learns in Storm of Swords (Book 3) is true, then Jon Snow is older — he was born whilst Catelyn was still engaged to Brandon ("So there's no stain on your father's honor", he didn't cheat on his wife) while at a tourney at Harrenhall, putting it before Robert's rebellion got started (though probably not much before). It's also implied his (Jon Snow's) mother committed suicide "from the shame", which is why Eddard didn't talk about it.
- Even if Robb wasn't older, legitimized bastards traditionally fall behind all trueborn children, including girls, in the line of succession, so Robb would still come before Jon after legitimizing him. The only reason Jon would be heir to Robb before Sansa and Arya is because Robb is decreeing it so for practical reasons, the girls being in Lannister hands (Sansa) or disappeared (Arya). Bran and Rickon don't come into it because they're "dead", of course.
What makes the Iron Bank of Braavos so powerfull?
I mean, do they employ some powerful sellswords or have a fearsome private army under their control? Other than being filthy rich and influential, what stops a particularly hot-headead king for gathering half his army and navy, sailing to Braavos, sacking the city, burning the bank to the ground, killing its owners and looting them of all their gold, if they refuse to loan him or threaten to support another prince or king if he doesn't repay them?
- Essentially, if you don't pay them, they'll fund your enemies. As an organization, they've more wealth than the Lannisters; if the Lannisters piss them off, they'll bankroll Stannis or Baelon or even Dany or one of the hundred or so other people who want to see the Lannisters die. They'll give them the funds to raise armies and supply those armies as well or better than the Lannisters can. The same goes for anyone who gets on their bad side; cross them, and whoever wants you dead(and you never get powerful enough to be in this position without having a lot of enemies) just got a new investor. The books also hint they have a very close relationship to the Faceless Men. All the armies and sellswords in the world aren't so dangerous as those guys. A hot-headed king who blustered about doing that would have an "accident" before he could raise that army.
- Besides, any king that tried would be facing the largest army money can buy, regardless.
- There's also the fact that Braavos lies in a swampy land that only the Braavosi can navigate easily, and it's protected by the strongest warfleet in the world. A land army is useless if it can't get to its target and establishing a navy isn't nearly as simple as establishing an army.
- This ties into what Varys said in Season 2 (though if this is a TV headscratchers section, why are we talking about this?). In Season 2, Varys asks who has power to sway the sellsword; the King, the Holy Man or the Rich Man. GRRM seems to have this ongoing theme of power being an illusion, and residing only where men believe it resides (another Varys quote).
- Let's not forget that if you're in any position of power, you most likely owe some sort of debt to the Iron Bank. If have a big enough debt, the Iron Bank can decide to call in those debts, refuse to grant any more loans, and quite simply ruin your economy. In the books, this is EXACTLY what they do to Westeros after Cersei refuses to pay them.
- I may be mistaken, but why did Jorah look so crestfallen when Dayenerys asked them about Daario? Wasn't that a natural thing to ask — three of them went in, two of them returned, of course she'd like to know if he's alive or not, considering he commands 20% of their army. What did Jorah expect, that Dany would fall into his embrace just as soon as he proclaims their victory?
- Obviously he's worried about the very real possibility that Dany may be falling in love/lust with pretty-boy-Daario, and he fears that this will lead her down the path of ruin (and considering what just happened to Robb Stark, he has good reason to be afraid of this). When she asked him what happened to Daario she sounded a little too concerned, like Daario had become more to her than just one of her top captains.
- "Hey, my queen, check out this thing I did for you even though it almost killed me because I'm utterly devoted to you!" "That's cool, but where's that hot dude?" King of the Friendzone indeed.
- It's all but confirmed that Jorah has an unrequited love for Dany, so it must have stung really bad that she seemed more concerned about Daario than him.
- Yeah, I understand the general sentiment, it just seem quite overplayed. Jorah and Grey Worm were there and seemingly unscarred, and Daario was not there — he could be badly wounded or killed. Any commander, I think, would inquire about a missing officer in such situation, and nobody would surmise that he cared about them more than about those present. Yet Jorah reacted to an innocent question as if it was a outspoken declaration of eternal love.
- He's not exactly an impartial observer. Even in the real world small statements by someone you have feelings for can be interpreted in a wide variety of ways. Dany probably was just wondering if the guy was alive, but Jorah is more focused on the fact she didn't first think about him.
- Even aside from the whole unrequited love thing, Jorah also prides himself on being Dany's oldest confidante, being the only one who supported her before she had dragons, the Dothraki, the Unsullied or Ser Barristan. Daario, on the other hand, had only showed up a few days ago. And it was not at all obvious that Jorah was unharmed in the attack, he was bleeding from several small wounds and was visibly shaken. So even disregarding the romance point of view, it must seem very disheartening that he doesn't even get a "Everything alright?" before Dany goes: "Hey, where's the new guy?".
- Following from the above, why didn't Daario enter together with the rest? Was he slowed by the banner, or did the sneaky bastard actually want to make Daenerys nervous?
- Both, probably. He could have asked the other commanders to wait while he tore down the banner so they could all arrive together, but apparently he told them to head back without him. He probably did it to see Dany's reaction. If she didn't seem worried about him, he knows to turn the charm on harder.
- Daario is now captain of the Second Sons. Maybe he wanted to address his own men before Dany.
Westeros standing in the world
The Iron Bank of Braavos. The Faceless Men. The Blood of Ancient Valyria. The Free City of Lorath. The more glimpses I see of the world outside the Seven Kingdoms the more I start to suspect that Westeros ranks rather low in the grand schemes of things. Or is that just me?
I mean the ruler of Yunkai pretty much hands everything Daenerys ever wanted on a silver platter in order to have her terrorize Westeros rather than them without much concern over what that would mean for the world in large.
- The Free Cities are akin to the rich merchant republics of Italy and are each unique and varied and wealthy. The slave cities of Astapor and Yunkai are rich from the slave trade. Westeros is sometimes referred to as backwards because it lacks the luxury and opulence of the city-states of Essos, but it does have something for it in that it is a unified continent with a significant amount of military power and trade value. Yunkai cares more about not getting terrorized by Dany than they do about not upsetting the balance of power globally, so they are more than willing to give her anything she wants to spare them. Whether or not big changes in Westeros will mean things for Essos remains to be seen.
- Westeros is in essence Medieval Western(most) Europe, if there was a Narrow Sea connecting the Baltic with the Mediterranean. The equivalents of Italy (The Free Cities), Byzantium (Qarth), the Middle East (Slaver's Bay), etc, all of them more developed that Western Europe at the time in our world, are all on Essos. From an Essosi perspective Westeros is poor, backwards and peripheral.
- All of the above, really. Think of Essos as the First World of this universe. Rich, urbanized, technologically and culturally advanced. Westeros, for all its Kings, Lords, and Knights, is still a poor, backwards, rural, and sparsely-populated feudal realm locked in MedievalStasis and whose economy is based mostly on agriculture and small-scale trade.
- I think people overestimate how "advanced" the Essosi are. Sure, they seem to be more refined, definitely have magic as a more common aspect of their lives, and see Westeros as backwards, but in truth, they're not much better, just more snob. For all the magic and riches the Essosi have, the Westerosi maesters still seem to be the most well-educated people in the world, for example.
- Yeah, they're a bit like the Islamic world during the Middle Ages. More advanced and refined in many ways, but on a grand scale neither one has a major advantage over the other.
- There's really no Essosi to speak of, since the continent is divided into so many countries, regions, and city-states. Qarth is like you described, and the Free Cities and Ghiscari cities to a lesser extent, and then there's the Dothraki and Lhazareen, not to mention all the regions and city-states that haven't gotten exposure in the story.
- The Free Cities also don't appear to be very militarily powerful, as they mostly rely on sellswords or slave soldiers for protection. If it weren't for the Narrow Sea, Westerosi lords could easily march on the isolated cities and take them one by one.
- The united military might of one of the high lords might be able to; but as Robert pointed out all the way back in Season 1; the Seven Kingdoms doesn't have a single army. Every lord is running around with his own army with little coordination and no real sense of unity.
- True, but as each High Lord has a big enough army to control at least ten times the territory of each individual Free City, even disunited they would be a serious threat to Essos if it weren't for the Narrow Sea. Daenerys has 8,000 Unsullied and she's a serious enough threat to the Free Cities for them to try and bribe her off rather than fight. For perspective, Robb Stark was able to muster 20,000 soldiers for a single battle.
- Yunkai isn't one of the free cities; it's part of Slaver's Bay, which is a coalition of three cities; Astapor, Yunkai, and Myreen, that supply slaves to the rest of the world. Yunkai itself is the weakest of the three, given that it specializes in pleasure slaves, and generally relies on the more militant Atapor for protection. Also keep in mind that it's not that Daenerys has 8000 unsullied that scares them, it's that she has 8000 unsullied that scares them. Going back to the Free Cities; being that they're all coastal powers, they're all more naval powers, especially Braavos, which boasts the strongest warfleet in the world. Meanwhile the Seven Kingdom's navy kind of sucks at the moment; Baelon commands arguably the strongest existing fleet right now, but he couldn't care less about the Free cities given that he's got all of Westeros between him and them. Stannis's fleet was smashed in the Blackwater, and as Master of Ships, his fleet represented the bulk of the Royal Fleet — which is why the Lannisters were cowering at Stannis' approach. The Free Cities do hurt in terms of infantry, which the Starks, the Lannisters, and especially the Tyrells have in spades, but you'd never get a beach head, and then if you did, the Dothraki would just wait for the fight to end and swoop in to smash the victor.
- The Westerosi lords can be united with a common purpose. At least once, during the War of the Ninepenny Kings, a Westerosi army landed in Essos and defeated a Tyroshi army, including the vaunted Golden Company. A few of the older characters, like Jon Arryn, Barristan Selmy and Brynden Tully made their names through victory here. The simple fact is the Free Cities aren't very militarily powerful because they are small city states whose only real enemies are the Dothraki who they can easily buy off. If every one city state opposes another, the battle usually comes in the form of politics and intrigue.
Anyone else seeing some major flaws in Yara's plan to march on the Deardfort with only fifty men?
- The odds are not in her favor, but it's not impossible. Assuming Bolton has most of his forces with him in the Riverlands, the Dreadfort might not be at full strength. Yara's not trying to take and hold the Dreadfort. She just wants to break in, free Theon, and get out. Under the right circumstances, she might be able to pull it off with fifty. Remember, Theon managed to take Winterfell with twenty men.
- The Ironborn style of fighting eschews pitched battles and grand strategies in favor of raiding. That basically means a force of fifty of the best killers the Iron Islands has would be quite sufficient to infiltrate the Dreadfort, slaughter their way through the garrison and escape before a large force can be mustered. A raid like this basically calls for the smallest group one can reasonably expect to accomplish the mission.
- Pretty much the above. The Ironborn don't fight big battles so size is always going to be irrelevant for the offensive. Winterfell was taken less Ironborn through careful planning and misdirection. So long as Yara avoids fighting the Bolton's forces on an open field or head on 50 men would be enough to break someone out of a generic castle. Whether or not it'll work on the Dreadfort is another matter entirely.
- She probably intends to do something like what Theon did in taking Winterfell, which worked with only 20 men. She has more than twice as many men and knows when to cut her losses — rather than trying to hold the Dreadfort, she knows to leave once she's rescued Theon.
Common Enemies and Lesser Evils
- The Wall and the Nights Watch are severely understaffed. This is made very clear. Even the recruits they do have mostly suck, or at least aren't enough to fend off the Wall; not from Wildlings, surely not from White Walkers. The Wildlings (by and large) want to GTFO of the North before the White Walkers and their army of dead people murder them and add them to their forces. So, why don't the two factions just make peace and face the White Walkers together? It wouldn't be difficult; Mance was a Watcher, Jon was briefly a Wildling. Yeah, they have some bad history, but fuck it, impending doom is...well, impending. They literally have nothing to lose but everything to gain for an alliance. I'm pretty sure Someone somewhere in Westeros would thank the Wildlings and give them lands (so they wouldn't have to loot, burn and pillage their way to a new homeland, which is more or less why the Wall is there). Hell, a few Lords might seriously want them to Exodus to their lands after the War of Five Kings is over and the White Walkers are dealt with, seeing as how their populations have been ravaged by the War. It makes no sense for them to fight each other with the impending threat, and they have to know this. Even the "Cultural differences" excuse wouldn't make sense, seeing as how the Wildlings and the Northerners are almost culturally identical. There has to be someone in both armies going "So...can we just fight the fucking snow monsters? That's what this is all about, right?"
- Cultural differences isn't an excuse here. The Wildlings are most similar to Northmen, but even they can't stand each other. The Wildlings follow a different religion from the rest of Westeros (even the Northerners practice a different structure to their faith) and are proud of the fact they eschew any and all rule and live their lives independently. They wouldn't listen to a lord even if he opened his arms to them — for no other reason than because they don't want to. Their entire society is incompatible with Westerosi styled governance. If nothing else, the fact that the two peoples have been warring for centuries (6 King-Beyond-The-Wall marched south and were repelled) would prevent their acceptance in society. That said the idea of a Wilding-Watch alliance does come up.
- The mistake in your argument is assuming that the wildlings would surely behave if they had lands south of the Wall. In fact, the southerners have every reason to believe they'll just raid much more, since they are the free folk and answer to no one they don't want to. It's not as much a matter of culture, but a matter of societal structure, with the southerners living in a feudal society, while the wildlings live in a tribal one where Authority Equals Asskicking is the only hierarchy there is. Now (book spoilers following), some wildlings are given the chance to make a living in the Gift, the region that belongs to the Night's Watch, and is pretty much abandoned. The decision was made because the Wall and the Night's Watch were never really meant to keep the wildlings away (their true goal is and always was to defeat the Others, and they're already too weakened to do that even without concerning themselves with a third side on the conflict), but the long-term consequences of this act are yet to be felt.
- If you want to know what the Wildlings would be like if the Watch let them all come down south, look no further than the Hill Tribes who live in the Vale of Aryn. The Wildlings are a gang of violent anarchists. Basically land-bound versions of the Ironborn. Could you live next door to a guy like Craster? How about a million guys like Craster? The Wildlings may piss and moan about how the southerners "stole" their land, but in reality there's a very good reason for the Seven Kingdoms to keep them out. Now of course that may (and probably will) change quite a bit as the war with the White Walkers kicks into high gear, but we're not there yet.
- Actually, Craster's practices are unique for a wildling and the other wildlings hate him and vice versa.
- I don't mean the incest thing, I mean the "violent asshole" thing. Wildlings, as a rule, are violent assholes. Their idea of "marriage" is basically "knock her out and drag her back to your cave by her hair". In that respect, Craster is no different from the rest of the Wildlings.
- Well, except that Wildling women aren't meek and submissive as a rule. They have a saying (paraphrased): "You can own a woman or you can own a knife, but you can't own both". Basically, they are taught that it's a-OK to stab their man in his sleep if he is abusive or otherwise unpleasant.
- ...Which only reinforces the point that the people south of the Wall have every reason in the world to keep the Wildlings out. Wildling women may not be submissive by nature, but non-Wildling women are. So, if one of them gets knocked out and turned into a wife for Grabthor Ironshank or whatever, she's probably not going to be inclined to fight back against whatever he has planned for her. If "Southerners" had to live next to Wildlings, it wouldn't take long before open warfare breaks out between the Wildlings who think marriage-by-kidnap is okay and Southerners who don't take kindly to their daughters being kidnapped.
- You might think it's a good idea for the Night's Watch and the Wildings to ally against the real threat, but that's something that people are notoriously bad at (not being able to look past the immediate advantage to see the long term problems). Look at the actions of the European powers to the Nazis carving up Czechoslovakia - you might think the Poles would oppose it because a big country carving up a small one was probably something they wanted to avoid, but Hitler allowed them to make territorial gains - for a year or so, when they were themselves conquered. And they were culturally a lot more similar than the Wildings and the Northmen.
Are Masha Headle and Tobho Mott nobles?
So we are told that in Westeros only nobles get surnames and commoners don't, yet here there are an innkeeper and a smith that have surnames. What's the deal with them?
- Maybe Tobho Mott is from the Free Cities. His name doesn't sound Westerosi, and he studied his trade in Qohor.
- The idea of only nobles having surnames is something of an over generalization. A few commoners do have them, it's just exceedingly rare and ultimately not worth much.
- Varys's speech was figurative. Having any surname is still not enough, your surname has to mean something. So if you're a Lannister or a Baratheon, you're pretty important, but if you're a Rivers or a Snow, or have some foreign/lowborn surname, you're still just a random face amongst the masses.
- Those two characters are moderately well-known businesspeople, so maybe they have more use for a surname than the average peasant. Also, Tobho Mott is apparently from Qohor.
- Historically, surnames for common people developed in part from their profession (Smith, for instance) so people of a profession, for instance an inn keeper and a master armorer, would indeed have need of a surname.
- That's actually the other way around — the need of a surname made people use professions as one source of them, the profession didn't need the name. "Oh I mean John the Smith, not John the Cook or John the Shepard."
- As said above, Tobho a prominent master armourer from the Free City of Qohor where surnames are more common, and Masha Heddle is descended from the crippled knight Long Tom Heddle who retired there around 150 years before the series.
That powder stuff Tywin uses on his letters.
So in Season 3, what is that powder stuff Tywin spread on the letters he writes and blowing it away before sealing the letter?
Shouldn't Westeros be more accepting of Brother Sister Incest?
Think about it, The Founder of the Kingdom
and his heirs during a 300 year long dynasty was exclusivly marrying their heir to his sister in order to keep the bloodline pure. 300 years of living in the royal court and try to elevate yourself and your family would have been dependent of you being willing to ignore the fact that The King and His Queen is siblings. Shouldn't this Stepford Smiler Masquerade
have tickled down to the common folks world-view so that the spawn of a Brother-Sister Incest
shouldn't be a automatic death sentence?
- The Targaryens are basically seen as being akin to gods on Earth. They can get away with things that are deadly sins for "mere mortals". That was part of the problem with their rule — they saw themselves as Above Good and Evil, which created the potential for horrible tyranny.
- Also, to the Westerosi, every single Targaryen is The Conqueror. Think of it this way: in our society, we see bestiality as something intensely taboo at best and morally repugnant at worst. We are conquered by humanoid aliens who practice ritual bestiality. Sure, we can appease them by saying we accept it, but really it's just adding insult to injury: not only are these foreigners taking over, but they're trampling on long-held moral values.
- Indeed. It is important to remember that the Targaryens appeased the Westerosi lords by adopting their culture by and large. Incest was one of the few practices they maintained and nobody liked it — it was considered profane. They got away with that by being the most powerful force in the realm with armies and dragons.
- Well it's still gross regardless of what the royals did, but the kids would still have been marked for death as the results of an affair by the Queen and being pretenders to the throne.
- As pointed out above, the Targaryens didn't quite follow the rules of the people they conquered, but aside from that, they were also well known to have madness as a very common trait, and the incest is believed to be the cause, so you'd imagine the stygma is still there for the lesser families.
- Westerosi were never particularly accepting of the Targaryan practice of incest. There was at least one religious uprising over the issue. It's just something people had to accept because of the Targaryan answer to everything back then; "Fuck you, got Dragons."
- Just a point of fact, the Targaryen monarchs didn't exclusively practice brother-sister incest, just very commonly. If there was an advantageous political marriage to be made, such as when Dorne was brought into the realm, or no sibling of the opposite sex existed, as in Prince Rhaegar's case, then they would intermarry with other noble families. Also, we know that the sons of King Aegon V were all given permission to marry for love as he had, which probably wasn't with sisters. Anyway, there were those in Westeros who didn't approve of the Targaryen practice of incest, leading to the aforementioned uprising and grumbling, and others who figured that the gods were okay with it if it was the Targaryens doing it, but not if it was normal people. They were considered a breed apart (having white hair and purple eyes helped with that).
Why the lax punishment for Balon?
Something that's baffled me for awhile now is why Balon Greyjoy is even still alive at the beginning of the series. This is the man who took up arms against the Iron Throne, and was defeated. Now, I know he eventually bent the knee, but he still committed treason of the highest order, for no reason that would make sense to a non-Ironborn. It seems perfectly reasonable to have executed him, and or at the very least
strip him of his titles and send him into exile or to The Wall. To let him keep the power he had before he rebelled just seems to be an act of complete idiocy, and Balon's second succession proves that it was. Just what was Robert thinking? I realize that he and Ned probably assumed that taking Theon hostage would be enough to ensure Balon's good behavior, but it still seems lax to me.
- Blame Tywin Lannister and Jon Ayrn for that. The former has the saying "when someone bends the knee to you you must help them stand again, else no man ever bend the knee to you again," the latter being pragmatic enough to know that killing Balon or exiling him would pretty much ruin any chance of keeping peace with the Iron Islanders. Not only that, but Balon does have a brother, Euron (who will be showing up in the show) who is probably an even worse choice for the head of House Greyjoy. If you kill off Balor, Theon is too young to rule and Yara, being a woman, isn't considered a sucessor by most of Westorosi standards, so Euron gets the Iron Islands until Theon comes of age, which is not a good thing.
- To elaborate, in the books, Balon is the eldest of four brothers(well, five, but one died young). His other brothers are Victarion, who's essentially his answer to Gregor Clegane, and Aeron, who's a fanatically religious priest of the Drowned God. Neither of these guys are someone who you're want to be lord of the Iron Islands, and Euron is far and away the worst of the four of them.
- Robert completely misunderstood Balon's personality. For starters, Balon rose up in rebellion mere years after Robert did the same and killed Aerys. Someone like Tywin might not care to do it but Robert apparently felt that it would have been too hypocritical to kill a man for doing the same thing Robert himself did right before, or arguably less (technically Balon never had Robert's death as a declared goal, only independence, which in Ironborn parlance is "we take your shit and don't pay for it", but still, not "I'll kill Robert and all his descendants I can get my hands on until I claim everything that is his as mine" which is what Robert did). Balon then suffered the death of his two eldest sons in combat and was forced to give the remaining third as a hostage. At that point Robert, and probably Ned, assumed that Balon was as good as dead. He'd never risk going to war again because it would be the immediate end of his line. Neither Robert nor Ned, however, could have foreseen that Balon would write off Theon as dead the minute he gave him away, plot to rise again as soon as he could (even though it meant Theon's execution) and groom Yara as his successor in her brother's place, because that's not the way things happen in the continent (it's clearly not an usual circumstance, but one can still point to Sansa's situation: she is the only Stark believed alive but she is not Warden of the North; her son, if she has one, will be since the minute he is born, but never her). On the other hand, a living Balon could be useful: the Ironborn are a wild bunch, but they accepted Balon as their leader and followed him into war. They'd follow him in peace as well. If Balon was killed, however, the Ironborn might just rally around some other Ironborn (which might or might not be a Greyjoy) that could decide to wage a pirate war forever, requiring constant naval patrols and a military occupation of the Iron Islands. Short of genocide, the Ironborn might go on being a pain in the ass for Westeros forever. Balon, for all his talk, was not a warrior (as far as we know, he might as well have never left the Iron Islands) and could swear fealty to a continental king.
- It helps that Balon bent the knee of his own will and was not made to. That probably inspired Robert to show mercy. Besides that, the Greyjoy rebellion helped cement Robert's rule by giving him common cause with the lords that otherwise did not like him and he was able to prove the strength of his rule. He probably thought that he could keep Balon on a leash and thereby cow the Iron Islands into submission.
- Well, technically, Balon didn't commit treason against Robert. I don't think he vowed to follow the new dynasty after Robert's Rebellion succeeded, only after his own rebellion failed. For all intents and purposes, once the Targaryens were out of the picture, it was each of the seven kingdoms on their own once again, Robert just managed to put them back under a single command quite quickly. It certainly helps that three of the kingdoms belonged to him and close friends, and that he got a fourth one's alliance while Ned and Jon got the support of the Riverlands by the way of marriage.
Does The Lord of Light exist?
In-universe that is. Or is Melisandre just a witch?
- Either. Both. No one knows. The mystery is the whole point.
Lysa Arryn's allegiance
Where do her loyalties lie? On the one hand she is the sister of Catelyn Stark and helped her out before she technically she should be on the side of the North (the Arryns were when Jon Arryn was alive). But then there's the fact that she is closely aligned with Beilish who is very pro-Lannister. After the damage the Lannisters have done to the North would she still be on their side? I want to know what's going on in the Vale but it never seems clear, other than the fact that she has recently married Petyr.
- Your first mistake is assuming Littlefinger is pro-Lannister. He all but spells it out to Varys that he's pro-Littlefinger and no one else. His whole "chaos is a ladder" speech is him admitting to having manipulated the entire kingdom into a civil war in which he has unlimited capacity for advancing his position. Lysa is batshit insane and the future will reveal that her "loyalties" don't really exist past a certain point.
- She's a pawn of Littlefinger and does what he tells her to. And she hates Catelyn (unbeknownst to Catelyn).
- Lysa Arryn is nuttier than squirrel poop. "Loyalties" don't enter into her decisions.
- There's a chapter in the books where Catelyn basically describes Lysa as a coward. Suffice to say that at the moment Lysa isn't allied with anyone. No men from the Vale are fighting on anyone's side. She's sitting on top of her mountain and hoping the rest of Westeros forgets the Vale of Arryn exists. Needless to say, given the Vale's connection to the Starks and the Tullys, neither Robb nor her own bannermen are particularly happy about this decision. Incidentally, in the show Tywin at one point asserts the marriage to Petyr Baelish will secure her allegiance against the northern army. Show!Tywin should be smarter than that. Lysa's neutrality doesn't sit well at all with her bannermen. Her raising men and going to war with her own house would almost certainly have led to open rebellion against her rule.
- Firstly, the Vale wasn't really on the side of the North under Jon Arryn. They were on the side of Robert Baratheon and Robb was waging war against Robert's "children" and his brother for independence. Secondly, the Vale bannermen aren't going to rebel against their liegelord or in this case his regent for some Stark kid that they don't know.
Illyn Payne's cowl
I understand that it might be just tradition, but still I'm curious, was there any reason for sir Illyn to put on a cowl before he executed Ned Stark? I always thought that executioners put them on to hide their identites because their position was universally despised, but everybody knew who Illyn is.
- Could just be symbolic; "What I do now is not as Ilyn Payne, but as the King's headsman, so if you don't like it take it up with him" kind of thing. Clearly didn't work on Arya, who's got him on her death list.
- Historians seem to disagree on the origin of the executioner's hood. The idea that it prevented retribution by protecting the executioner's identity is a popular one, but other sources indicate that executioners were actually required by law to advertise their position publicly (mainly so he could be properly shunned, since his job was considered "necessary, but unclean"). The mask then (or hood in this case) would seem to be intended as a way to dehumanize the executioner while he went about his duties. When he puts that hood up the onlookers don't see Ser Illyn Payne anymore. He ceases to be a man and becomes The King's Justice.
- Hell, in medieval Sweden the position of a headsman was actually a punishment you got if you committed an crime that was not quite heinous enough for you to be executed: You got your ears chopped off and you were appointed the crowns headsman, being given a pittance for every head and no chance to get any honest work outside that.
Varys' Attempt to Stop Littlefinger from Taking Sansa
- If Varys in the show is aware of Littlefinger's designs on Sansa and working to stop him, wouldn't the simplest route be to tell (or otherwise make known to) her that Littlefinger betrayed her father to his death? Instead he embarks on a scheme to fix her up with Loras Tyrell.
- Sansa Stark is terrible at keeping secrets. If Varys told her what Littlefinger did she would surely tell other people about it, and when they asked where she learned this she would surely tell them that Varys told her. And then Joffrey might order Varys killed when he found out about it. Varys would of course escape before he could be executed, but there's no sense giving up his cherry gig as the Master of Whispers by letting Blabbermouth Sansa know things she doesn't need to know.
- What basis is there for Sansa being incapable of keeping secrets? She kept her planning with Littlefinger a secret, even from Shae. Moreover, that Littlefinger betrayed Ned Stark isn't some kind of state secret, even though few people know about it. Why would it be?
- Admittedly Sansa's blabbermouth traits were mostly glossed over in the tv show. In the books Sansa was the one who tipped Cersei off that Ned was planning to send her and Arya back to Winterfell, which allowed the Lannisters to consolidate their forces against Ned's and contributed greatly to his betrayal. And she blabbed to Dontos about the plan to marry her to the heir of Highgarden, and Dontos told Baelish who in turn informed Tywin and Cersei. In any event, there are other reasons for Varys to take the route he did. If he had just told Sansa what Littlefinger did it wouldn't necessarily stop Littlefinger from running off with her. Baelish is a pretty persuasive guy and Sansa really wants to trust him. I don't think he would have much trouble convincing her that it was all a lie or that the Lannisters forced him to betray her father. And even if Sansa sees through his bullshit she may decide to go with him anyway just to get away from King's Landing. Varys needed a sure-thing, hence the Loras plan. To Sansa, a marriage to Loras seems like the best of both worlds. She gets the Hell out of King's Landing AND she gets to marry the hunky pretty-boy she's been crushing on since Season 1. And once the marriage was officially announced there would be nothing Littlefinger or the Lannisters could do about it.
- Neither of those things happened on the show, as you admit, so there's no basis for Sansa not being able to keep secrets (particularly as Varys' own plan hinges on Sansa being able to keep a secret). And Sansa doesn't want to trust Littlefinger; she turned him down the first time, and only changed her mind after being baited with Arya. Even at her most naive in the first book, Sansa always found Littlefinger creepy. And even if the Tyrell marriage is a good supplement, telling her about Littlefinger wouldn't cost anything and would put her on guard against him more than she is.
- Those things may not have happened in the show, but I have to believe they influenced the writing of the show to some degree, so they're still relevant. You're right that Sansa doesn't quite trust Littlefinger, but she wants to trust him if only because he represents a possible ticket out of King's Landing. Telling Sansa about Littlefinger would most assuredly cost Varys something. There is no way Sansa wouldn't confront Littlefinger with that information, and then Littlefinger would know that Varys was attempting to poison Sansa against him and would strike back in revenge. We saw what he did when he found out Roz was acting as Varys' spy. What do you think he would do if he thought Varys was openly trying to derail his plans?
- Confrontation hardly seems in Sansa's nature so far. Why not just tell her not to, as it would endanger lives (or else, not to say how she learned it)?
- Sansa very nearly murdered Joffrey in broad daylight after he had her father executed. I don't think it's a stretch to assume she would go to Littlefinger and bitch him out if she knew that he had betrayed her father and caused his downfall. Simply telling Sansa not to tell is not in Varys' nature. He doesn't tell people secrets and then ask them not to spread them around. The only people he shares secrets with are people who he thinks don't need to be told that.
- The only person who knows about that is the Hound, so that couldn't be influencing Varys' thinking. Moreover, telling her that Littlefinger betrayed her father would make her scared of him. And even if this worst-case scenario came to pass, so what? Littlefinger knows that Varys is his enemy already, and he's meeting with her in broad daylight, so his interest in her wouldn't be something it took special knowledge to know. And Varys shared all this with the Tyrells, so sharing the information is hardly something he doesn't do. The whole thing is a plot hole created by the decision to involve Varys in this story, since the most logical thing to do would spoil how this plot is going to play out.
- There's a big difference between "knowing someone is your enemy" and "knowing someone is directly striking against you". Varys doesn't want to make any obvious moves against Littlefinger. It's not how he operates. And really, why would you assume that Varys doesn't know about Sansa's attempt to murder Joffrey? Just because you didn't see one of his little birds doesn't mean they weren't there. And I didn't say Varys doesn't share information. I said he only shares information with people he trusts not to spread it around. Sansa is not one of those people (and, as it turns out, neither is Loras). She is an unreliable asset and is therefore kept on a need-to-know basis.
- One would assume Varys doesn't know because there's no indication he does, and the scenario was so oblique that even most of the guards present didn't notice (nor Joffrey himself). It would only be noticeable to somebody able to observe up close. Beyond which, there's really no basis to conclude that Varys doesn't want to make direct moves against Littlefinger. They've been engaged in their own little secret war. And there's no real basis to conclude that Sansa is an unreliable asset, based on her past history in the show; she's perfectly capable of keeping secrets and shies away from confrontation. Revealing information to the Tyrells is arguably riskier, seeing as it involves people who are active game players and could easily make alternative use of that information.
- Regardless, Varys is a spymaster, and he's simply doing what ALL spies practice: compartmentalized information. If your asset doesn't need to know, don't tell them. Also, who's to say Sansa would even trust Varys in the first place? She hardly trusts ANYBODY in King's Landing, and as far as she is concerned Varys is a complete stranger, while Littlefigner can at least argue he's a close family friend.
- Varys doesn't need to tell it to her directly. He could have the Tyrells do it, or leak the information to Shae via Ros, or whatever. And Littlefinger's betraying Ned is not a state secret; it doesn't need to be "compartmentalized".
- There really wouldn't be much point to telling her. At this point, as has been true for most of her time in Kingslanding, Sansa hasn't had any soldiers loyal to her or powerful figures allied to her. So Sansa has no control over who she marries. She certainly would have liked to marry Loras over Tyrion or Robin, but look what happened. The Lannisters decided she was going to marry Tyrion, regardless of her opinion, so that's what happened. Telling her the truth about Littlefinger wouldn't further Varys' plans in any way.
- The point in telling her would have been exactly what was outlined: preventing her from cooperating with Littlefinger, which was what Varys wanted.
- The point doesn't change. If Littlefinger wants her doing something for him, her knowledge would matter far less than the circumstances of those around her. Her goodwill did not matter in any conceivable situation until she was spirited out of Kingslanding, something Varys could have hardly thought Littlefinger could just pull off (it took an assassination to make it at all doable) and in a trial where only her words could help him, something that literally no one imagined happening. Up until one completely unpredictable event, Sansa Stark was a nonentity. And even setting that massive issue aside, she wouldn't have had reason to specifically believe the information anyway.
Pillaging of Xaro's house
Where were all the guards, while Daenerys and her men abducted Xaro, locked him in the vault and then stole all his stuff? Also, you'd think the first thing Xaro would do once he took over, would be to hunt down the rest of the Dothraki and kill them all. Yet apparently this never occured to him either.
- Yeah, I was wondering that as well. I think (think being the operative word) he assumed that since, for all he knew, Daenerys was rotting at the House of the Undying he didn't think her forces were a threat anymore. He might have been planning on ultimately buying off the Dothraki as Qarth had done before. The Qartheen also seem to be short on military forces period, hence their typical employment of mercenaries.
Defense of Winterfell
How did only 20 or so Ironborn take Winterfell? Did Robb Stark leave Winterfell completely undefended? You would think he would leave at least a hundred men at his capital to at least close the gates and put up some sort of defense until help could arrive. Even if he thought every man counted and didn't want to leave any skilled soldiers you could at least garrison Winterfell with men still going through training or those too old/young to be really helpful with the main force.
- In the books Theon has a much larger army under his command (but still far less than his sister was given). Most of Theon's forces created a diversion by attacking Torrhen's Square. Ser Rodrik took about 600 men (the better part of Winterfell's garrison) to liberate Torrhen's Square, and the Ironborn "retreated" drawing Rodrik further away from Winterfell. Theon then took his small band to Winterfell and caught the defenders by surprise.
- This is actually what happened in the show, as well.
What Keeps Her Going?
Sansa has gone through literal hell. Her family gets cut down one by one to the point she pretty much believes she's the last Stark alive and all the while she's still being horribly mistreated and finally forced to marry Tyrion, both a member of the family who killed all of her's and a dwarf on top of it. Put simply, how is it she hasn't killed herself by this point? I mean, I don't want some simple 'She's stronger then she looks" explanation. What honestly drives her to keep on going like this? Every day she lives, she's in constant sorrow, so what even gets her up in the morning?
- I read it as a massive Heroic BSOD. Survival is all she has left, and she's playing any hand she's got. People don't casually make the decision to kill themselves just because rationally they have nothing to live for. As for why she bothers going through the motions — I can't remember where the phrase is from, but she's been described as "armouring herself in courtesy"; she's been trained to be ladylike above all else, and has settled on that as her best strategy for keeping people happy.
- Well that seems a bit broad to say because a lot of people can and have killed themselves before for having nothing to live for.
- The point is it's not as simple as saying "Clearly I have nothing left to live for, better go jump off a bridge!" Nobody reasons their way into suicide. Sometimes people decide there's no point in living and kill themselves. Or sometimes people decide there's no point in living but there's no point in dying either. If I had to guess I'd say that's probably where Sansa is coming from. She hates everything about her situation and would probably welcome the sweet release of death, but she also doesn't see any point in taking her own life.
- She is never completely devoid of hope. First she thought Stannis or her brother would win the war and free her, then she thought she'd marry Loras and get out of King's Landing, now she has her escape plan with Littlefinger. Sure, so far her plans and hopes all failed miserably, but some people (most people, really) just keep trying, instead of giving up and killing themselves.
Daenerys Will Be Here Any Day!
I think it might have been explained in an episode, but I can't remember which, nor do I think it was that good of an explanation either. Tywin hears report after report from the east of Daenerys growing a huge army and even has dragons to come and take back the Iron Throne. Heck, even Joffrey points out that she could be a problem yet he continues to just ignore it. Why? Its obvious from Daenerys' growing forces that she can very well be a MUCH greater threat to King's Landing then Robb was.
- As far as Tywin is concerned, "reports" are not the same as "evidence". All sorts of crazy "reports" come out of Essos every day. As of right now Tywin doesn't have any actionable intelligence that Daenerys is a threat to anyone. Any and all of the "reports" about her could be exaggerations or outright fabrications.
- A huge army wanting to cross a sea requires a huge navy. Once he gets any word of her assembling that (something that takes a lot of time to do), I imagine he'll start worrying.
- And even if they manage to do that, going by Ned's remark the Westerosi "just throw them back in the sea". Now he was talking about Dothraki, but it seems to imply that Westrosi are no strangers to defending their shores especially if they anticipate an attack.
- They certainly had recent experience with fighting Balon Greyjoy, although Ned's probably motivated at least partially by hopes that he can avoid being even indirectly responsible for the murder of an innocent child. As for the dragons, by the time they get serious information on those Westeros is already in a multi-way civil war and if it's still at all following the books then Varys is actively trying to make sure that she's endangered enough to get moving, but not enough to actually die.
- As for the dragons, everyone in Westeros seem to dismiss that as nothing more than rumours, as dragons are supposedly extinct. Plus, Dany's army is not that big, at least not yet. All in all, Daenerys is a much smaller concern than the war they're already waging.
- The size of an army doesn't always matter. After all, the biggest chunk of her army are the immensely trained and obedient former slaves. Comapred to what? A bunch of dirty, barely trained common folk?
- The Unsullied are great infantry, but infantry alone does not win a war. The only reason she's so successful with the Ghiscari cities is by virtue of deception and converting their troops to her cause, something that may not be so easy to do in Westeros. She can't really take a well fortified castle with only Unsullied by her side. She also doesn't have the resources to get her army to Westeros. Furthermore, why would the powers of Westeros care about this girl wrecking havok on the other side of the world, when they already have people out for their blood for neighbours? It's a simple matter of priority.
You aren't really supposed to capture messengers, either
- So, Ser Alton Lannister is the go between when it comes to getting messages between the Stark Army and King's Landing. Gotta be a tough job, especially when he has to deliver bad news to people who have every reason to kill him for it. But he's lucky! When he gives Robb Stark the news that Cersei ripped up his peace terms, he...captures him. Wow, Robb, that's kind of a huge dick move. The guy walks into his enemy's camp bringing news he has no real reason to give you with no ill or violent intentions and you fucking take him captive. Especially considering only moments before ordering him to be put in a cell he reassured him that he doesn't hold Alton personally responsible for Cersei's actions. So why is he being captured? He did nothing wrong, he isn't really an enemy combatant, and capturing him for ransom is extremely dishonorable for someone whose always going on about how honorable he is. All and All, I'm glad that move came back to bite him in the ass.
- Alton was already a prisoner. He was the one sent south by Robb to deliver his peace terms in the first place (return Sansa and Arya unharmed, give us by the bodies of Ned and all the Stark men killed, give the North its independence). Cersei and the court sent him back to tell Robb they were declining his terms. All parties knew that them imprisoning Alton was acceptable because as a member of a noble house, his safety would be guaranteed.
- You know what would have actually secured his safety? If he was allowed to go home. Seriously, they have no real reason to capture him and every reason to let him go. They don't have the means to properly care for him, and he did his duty and did it well. Capturing him, or re-capturing him, is both horribly dishonorable and immeasurably stupid.
- Uh, he's a hostage. A Lannister hostage. That seems like plenty of reason to capture him and not let him go. Furthermore, he'd been in their camp. Twice. There's no telling what he might have seen on his way in that the Lannisters shouldn't know about.
- You seem to be missing the fact that it's late at night and he's presumably been riding for quite awhile. He's been kept there to rest before they either send him back with another message or move him to someone's castle to ensure he doesn't raise arms against the North.
- Alton is already a prisoner of war. He was selected specifically to deliver the peace terms because of his familial ties to the Lannisters; the Lannisters won't just up and kill him or throw them in their own dungeon. In the books they pick someone with ties to both the Lannisters and the Freys so that Robb can be reasonably sure of his good behavior. It's pretty common practice and it makes loads of sense. In fact, the one time Robb picks a messenger that wasn't a prisoner he ends up facing some dire consequences.
Why did Tywin want Ned Stark dead?
During the "skinning the deer" scene, when Tywin talks with Jaime about the past events, he asks "Why is Ned Stark still alive?", implying, I think, that Jaime should've killed him when he had a chance. Uhh, why would he want that if later he admits that Joffrey executing Ned was a colossal stupidity? Obviously, if Jaime killed Ned, Notherners would've went to war even sooner, wouldn't they?
- That was less about killing Ned Stark and more about him analyzing Jaime's motivations for doing so. Remember, Jaime is his son; a father has to impart lessons now and then.
- Plus, context. At that point Ned had claimed he had kidnapped Tyrion and was holding him hostage, which is pissing on the Lanister name. Killing Stark then would be straight up retaliation; Ned's not the Hand of the King at the time, he has no evidence of Tyrion's guilt and has more or less handed him over to a madwoman for execution. The northerners would still have been pissed, but it becomes a much more grey matter (and the North isn't at war yet). It probably still would have gone to war still, but Tywin has the advantage of being able to play the wronged party in the whole affair and make the war about the Starks kidnapping a Lanister for a crime he didn't commit. Once it comes out that he was almost executed by a madwoman it becomes a hard sell to say you're fighting for justice and honour. But when Joffrey executed Ned it just reinforced that he was a sadistic tyrant and painted the whole thing as the injustice it was.
- Also, reneging on the deal to let Ned take the Black technically makes Joffrey an Oathbreaker.
- Because Tywin believes that you either completely destroy your foe, or make him your ally. You don't antagonize him and then leave him in a position to retaliate. The Lannisters were justified in attacking the Starks at that point, so the Starks couldn't do much. Making Ned confess to being a traitor (which no character not already aligned with the Lannisters has believed so far), offering him pardon and then killing him anyway just makes the Lannisters the villains in the eyes of the other lords.
- Tywin is also generally a proponent of the philosophy that a thing should never be done halfway. (In the books, when he started balding, he shaved off the rest of his hair.) It's not so much that he personally wants Ned Stark dead as him basically telling Jaime that if you attack someone, you'd better be prepared to finish the job, regardless of any cost to your personal honor.
- It's been a while since I watched that scene, but is it possible that Tywin's referring to their encounter during Robert's Rebellion, when the two nearly came to blows after Ned found Jaime sitting on the Iron Throne?
Five Hundred Twenty-Five Thousand Six Hundred Minutes; How Do You Measure a Year in the Life (of Ice and Fire)?
From the characters' stated ages, we know that a year in the World of Ice and Fire is roughly the same length as a year in our world. But if the seasons last for years, what exactly is a year? Is it a certain number of days or months? I've watched the first three seasons of the show and am about 30% of the way through reading A Storm of Swords
, and there still hasn't been much explanation about the calendar.
- Even in our world, years were not determined by seasons but by the progress of the sun across the sky. I gather that does not change, even though the climate varies intermittantly.
- Original poster here. Coincidentally, I just saw today that the next chapter in the book begins with Jon thinking about the constellations. Then I remembered that one way to measure a year is by what constellations are in the sky at any specific time of night.
- I am fairly certain that what they call winter isn't what we call winter. I think that it is an semi-regulary occuring mini-ice age with extremely short Summers flanked with cold springs/falls and extremely cold and long winters.
- They do have a moon, so they would have months. A year might just be a certain number of moons passing.
- The lengths of the days might increase and decrease throughout the year just without the change in weather.
- In the books it's made clear that there are short seasons (the ones of the regular year) and long seasons (the winter the Starks keep saying is coming). Even during the long summer, there's a winter each year, and the annual cycle of planting and harvesting goes on. And as mentioned above, the long season winter is effectively a mini ice age.
Theon swearing fealty to Robb
- It seemed strange. Why did Theon swear fealty to Robb and think that he could get Balon to swear fealty to the Starks too? He's a Greyjoy. The Greyjoys are traditionally enemies of the the Riverlords and the Northern Lords. Wouldn't that essentially be giving up his inheritance? I did some reading and Theon never swears fealty to Robb in the books and he certainly doesn't try to get Balon to swear fealty. Why did the writers have Theon swear fealty and try to get Balon to swear fealty to Robb in the show?
- Perhaps because it's less complicated than the way it plays out in the books; Robb offers Balon a kingship, Balon rejects it because he's culturally offended by the idea of taking a gift, and decides to take a kingship by force with the Starks as his primary target. Either way, the stumbling block is that Theon has been away from home too long to realise how unlikely his father would be to take Robb's offer. If he were more familiar with his culture/his family, he'd either have convinced Robb to change the terms or been more diplomatic in the way he proposed them to Balon.
- I see what your saying, but in the books while Robb "wants to give him a crown" him a crown, that Theon and Robb intend for the Iron Islands to be an independent nation as well. And in the books when Balon reads that Robb said he would give him a crown, Theon tries to correct his words. Why would he swear fealty to the II's traditional enemies in the show? Is he just an idiot?
- Theon pledges his own allegiance, not the Iron Islands' — nor does he ever expect Balon to bend his knee to Robb. Robb's contract states that he gives Balon the crown in exchange for alliance in the war against the Lannisters; nowhere does it state that Balon and his successors become vassals of the Starks. Also, Theon doesn't really consider the matter from an Iron Islands point of view, because he's too young to really remember the feud between Starks and Greyjoys, has been out of touch from the II culture most of his life, and the Starks are the closest thing he's had for a family. Basically, Theon didn't really know his father anymore and expected him to respond more like Ned Stark would've.
- Actually, Theon does try to get Balon to swear fealty to Robb. "Rise up against them and they could destroy us. But if we pledge fealty to them, they'll give us Casterly Rock." And Yara says, "You'd have our father bow down to your other family?" It's a far cry from what he says in the books. "I will lead the attack myself, if it please you. As my reward I would ask that you grant me Casterly Rock for my own seat, once we have taken it from the Lannisters." Maybe your right though. In the show (but not the books), the Starks are portrayed as the closest thing to family for him. Which is pretty sad and pathetic honestly. Still, the heir to the Iron Islands swearing fealty to the North is pretty stupid.
- Ah, forgot about that part. I figured Theon bending his knee to Robb was not stupidity, but instead a result of some quick opportunistic thinking. Someone had just presented the idea of making Robb the King of the North, and Theon figured that by being one of the first to support a new king he would be much better off at the end of the war — hell, he was probably already thinking that Robb might support the Iron Islands' independency if the crown prince would be such a loyal and trustworthy friend as Theon. However, expecting Balon to actually bow down to a Stark or swear fealty on behalf of the Iron Islands really was stupid.
- Theon has lived in the North for too long. Despite his bluster about the superiority of the Ironborn, he's long since absorbed the Northerners' way of thinking, essentially becoming more Stark than Greyjoy. Swearing fealty to Robb made sense to him because of that.
- Maybe your right. I must be mixing things up, because in the books the only Northerner he cares about and really accepts him is Robb which is clearly not what HBO is going for the show. I'll chalk Show!Theon swearing fealty to Robb up to stupidity.
- I think that somebody (probably the writers) have confused fealty for alliance. What Robb wants from Balon Greyjoy is an alliance (if a bit of lopsided one, as Balon correctly notes). That's not the same thing as fealty, precisely.
Arya and Tywin
- How did Tywin not figure out who Arya really was? He likely knows that Cersei wasn't able to capture her. He also notes that Arya can read better than his men,he knows she lied once about where she came from,and he doesn't seem to be completely convinced by her claim of being a Smith's(at least that's what I think she said)daughter yet it never crosses his mind that she could be the missing Arya Stark?
- Harrenhall is a pretty damned long way from King's Landing for a pre-teen girl to make on her own, and Tywin has no knowledge that she had any help fleeing the city. Additionally, just because he knows she's of noble background doesn't necessarily make her a Stark. There are a lot of bastards in this setting and the upheaval from the war meant a lot of houses falling apart. On a more meta level, the two characters didn't meet in the books. Tywin couldn't have suspected her because it would have diverged the plot dramatically.
- Further, the show teases you with the possibility that Tywin does suspect who she is but just doesn't get around to acting on it before she escapes.
- Tywin only has a suspicion that Arya is a bit more than she claims to be. Suddenly suspecting that she's a very specific daughter of a high lord is a gigantic leap. Furthermore, he'd be operating under a lot of presumptions that would throw him off that trail:
- He would be expecting that Arya is either dead or being hidden away by a Stark loyalist. The idea that she was just roaming around the countryside masquerading as an orphan boy is highly unusual.
- Arya is a very atypical noble lady, and Tywin has never met her. He's got to be imagining Arya as another Sansa or Myrcella: a reasonably proper, sheltered girly girl. Arya acts nothing like his conception of Arya would act.
So when did Thoros first come to King's Landing?
At some point, it was said that Thoros came to Westeros to convert Robert (in the books, his task was to convert the Mad King), but he later said that he was present when the dead Targaryen children were shown to Robert, which would have been very quickly after he took the throne. So, was he sent before Robert became the king with the mission to convert a man leading a rebellion, or did it take really long for the children to be shown to Robert?
- When was it stated that Thoros was sent to Westeros to convert Robert and not Aerys?
- Melisandre says it when she meets him: "The High Priest gave you a mission. Turn King Robert away from his idols and towards the Lord of Light."
- Could be that Thoros' mission was "convert the king of Westeros", rather than Robert specifically. Melisandre could have simply mentioned Robert because Thoros spent 17 years in Roberts court, and barely any time in Aerys'.
- It's also possible that the red priests recognized Robert as king before the rebellion was finished (and maybe supported him by other means), because they saw this as an opportunity to convert Westeros to the Lord of Light religion. Alternatively, they just wanted to get rid of Thoros and sent him into a warzone with a goal they knew he couldn't accomplish.
Jaime's sparring partner
Jaime says that he can't find a sparring partner because he can't trust anyone. What about the person who escorted him to King's Landing, has shown herself to be very capable with a sword, has no loyalty to anyone else in King's Landing, and has complete trust and respect for Jaime?
- He is probably reluctant to ask for her help after he insulted her last episode.
- He also probably doesn't want to get Brienne involved in what he sees are his own problems. There's also the possibility that she might subconsciously go easy on him due to their personal relationship.
- The behind-the-scenes reason is that Ilyn Payne served this role in the books but suffered an Actor Existence Failure, so Bronn was the most convenient substitute. Brienne is scheduled for other things.
- Well Wilko Johnson isn't dead yet, but has Terminal Cancer and is busy wrapping up his affairs. Not that it would matter as the show has rather blatantly changed actors for major characters (namely Daario where the two actors look nothing alike). The actor's availability is a non-factor in this, the below troper has hit the nail on the head in my opinion.
- They've changed actors when contract disputes and availability have factored into it, but in the only(to my knowledge) instance of an actor dying, The Character Died With Them.
- Even then, it would probably make more sense for the show to use Bronn. Ilyn Payne just isn't as recognizable. And Jaime sparring against a mute would not have been nearly as entertaining.
- I always found the choice of Payne as an instance of Jaime believing himself smarter than he really is, anyway. The books do have a mute character that manages to convey an important plot point (Wex, Theon's bastard cousin), it's easy to imagine that if Payne wanted to tell Jaime's secrets he'd have his way to make himself understood as well. And even if he couldn't, Jaime had already sparred with Marbrand after losing his right hand, who could have told anyone, and plenty of people had seen him at tournaments, so anyone with a clue about swordfighting would know exactly how the loss would have affected him.
- I'd debate the point of Ilyn Payne not being as recognizable. He's not around nearly as much as Bronn, but he has a very distinctive look.
The White Walkers
This seem to be noticed and mocked by many people, even South Park
jabbed at it, so maybe it's a pointless question, but seriously, where are the W Ws
? We had Three Blasts and Sam encountering that huge undead horde back in Season 2 (or was it even 1?), and then they... what? I think even the Wights, with their leisury gait, should be able to reach the Wall by now, and yet there's not even a wiff of them.
- They're getting ready. For what, where and why is intentionally a mystery. They attacked the Night's Watch at the Fist of the First Men and we saw that at least one Wight trying to kill Sam off, and one White Walker being killed by Sam. We don't even know why they do what they do, so explaining where they could be is futile. They could be wiping out the remaining wildling tribes that aren't part of Mance's army, they could be going to wake more White Walkers up, they could be waiting for the full force of winter to announce their arrival.
- In the books, it's mentioned that there is supposedly an enchanment put on the Wall where as long as men stand watch on it, the White Walkers cannot pass. The White Walkers are simply biding their time. They've waited thousands of years for a chance to breach the Wall, so they could stand to wait a few more months.
- The Doylist explanation is that the book series was originally meant to be a trilogy, and as it grew bigger and bigger, the last arc had to be postponed more and more. That's why both the White Walkers and Daenerys seem to never get anywhere, the Walkers by just showing up infrequently, instead of pressing on the wildlings and then the Wall itself (the enchantment mentioned above protects the Wall from the White Walkers, but not from the whights they create) and Dany by frolicking on Essos rather than just moving her army to Westeros already. We may get a better Watsonian explanation down the line (Dany's being that she needs ships, and never seems to get them even though she's conquering litoranean cities), but right now there is none, at least outside of the realm of theories.
- Its entirely possible the White Walkers are waiting for winter before they launch their full scale attack on the Wall. The full strength they have at their disposal may have only partially revealed itself because they're still in the midst of fall and the weather is still too warm.
- It's possible, but not necessarily true. The books raise the question of whether the White Walkers attack when it's cold, or if their presence brings the cold (it always gets much colder right before they appear, and when they disappear the cold recedes a bit), so it's possible that it's not winter already because they haven't launched a full-scale assault, and not the other way around.
- So, I'm about to venture into WMG territory here, and there will be Oathkeeper spoilers to come, but... it would appear to me that the White Walkers aren't moving on the Wall in force just yet. They still seem to be centered in The Land of Always Winter. What we've seen so far, even the massive force witnessed during the Season 2 finale, those seem to be little more than scouting parties. The cat's paw of the White Walker threat.
Daario really expendable?
- In choosing a champion to fight against the Meereen champion, Dany deems that Grey Worm, Barristan, and Jorah are too valuable as they are, respectively, the commander of the Unsullied, her Queensguard, and her most loyal adviser. But isn't Daario rather valuable as well, being the leader of the Second Sons?
- Another adaptation induced problem, unfortunately. She explicitly rules out Daario in the books precisely for this reason. The only problem is that the character she chooses to fight for her instead, Strong Belwas, was cut from the TV show. I suppose an in-universe explanation could be that the Second Sons are loyal enough to her now that, even with Daario dead, whoever replaces him would still keep them on her side. She's still presumably paying them, after all.
- The Second Sons that aren't Daario are entirely absent from the show. Though they may follow Dany there's little evidence of that, and it seems more likely that the company disbanded altogether when Daario killed the other leaders.
- Alternatively, they're present in the same way her Dothraki followers are present; theoretically still there, and occasionally the writers may see fit to show some of them to remind us they exist, but in practice paying actors just to remind us they exist when they have little to do isn't practical.
- According to Season 4, Episode 5 "First of His Name", most if not all of the Second Sons after Daario took over apparently still fight under Dany as part of her army of 10,000 soldiers (2,000 Second Sons and 8,000 Unsullied according to Ser Barristan).
- Even then she had to send someone and someone really good at that. Out of her best fighters Daario was the lest inexpendable.
- Also, being a mercenary, it's pretty much Daario's job to put his neck on the line for his boss, or else he wouldn't be a very good mercenary.
- The Second Sons are mercenaries. If they fight for Daenerys after their other two captains were killed is not out of loyalty, it's because she pays them. If Daario died she'd only need to keep their pay and wait for them to choose a new commander.
Jaime doesn't get the hint
- So in "Breaker of Chains", Jaime essentially rapes Cersei. What the fuck, even given the whole incest thing, possessed him to do that?
- In the books, it starts out like rape (since Jaime isn't taking no for an answer) and quickly becomes unquestionably consensual, with Cersei's dialogue and reactions showing she's clearly into it. Apparently, the writers and director intended it to be taken as evolving into a consensual act in the show as well. Yet they omitted the dialogue and the reactions that would make it so.
- Yeah, given that Cersei was kissing him back it seems like what they were trying to do... but eventually she stopped kissing him back because she was busy saying "no." It... wasn't well done if that was their intention.
- If you would read anything by the directors or actors in this series, then you would know it's not a rape scene.
- If the directors and actors claimed that Westeros was a Matrix-esque simulation and that the world outside it was actually the Fairy Land of Candycanes, then they would have just about the exact level of legitimacy when claiming that this wasn't a rape scene. Word of God matters absolutely nothing when what is said does not match what is shown.
- To be specific, the director claimed that the scene as shot and acted was not a rape scene; Cersei objects not because she doesn't want to have sex with Jaime, just that she doesn't want to have sex with Jaime right next to their son's corpse, but that before the scene ends, she comes around and gives in to her own desires. That was lost in editing, which the director takes full responsibility for.
- I don't think it was entirely out of character. Jaime has been a cauldron of frustration and horniness since returning to King's Landing. His hand is gone, his father has effectively disowned him, he's traumatised from months of abuse (and celibacy), his son just died. And worst of all, the woman he loves, the one thing he was desperately trying to get back to since his capture, has been spurning him and insulting him for no good reason. It probably just boiled over at that point. It's an utterly despicable act, but I think quite understandable. Plus, remember that while Jaime is a relatively decent guy, he's got a very substantial dark side. Frankly, I'm surprised it was just rape and not a rape-murder.
No Pronunciation Guide?
- How come Tywin forgets how to pronounce Aerys when talking about King Aerys I after three seasons of no-one having trouble pronouncing it when talking about his old boss King Aerys II?
- According to series wiki, Tywin is talking about Orys I, not Aerys I.
Praying to the Stranger
- The Hounds snark aside, what would a friendly, good-natured simple farmer have to pray to the God of Death on a daily basis about?
- Not today? Or, just the opposite, since death is inevitable, he could pray for an easy and peaceful one, and something like guidance and clemency in the afterlife. Or maybe he wouldn't, in fact "do all seven of the fuckers", since it's noted that Stranger is rarely prayed to.
- Or, assuming the Stranger is the God of all Deaths, he might give thank for the rabbit's death that was necessary for their dinner.
- People only seem to pray to the Stranger when they're really desperate, so it's likely the guy wouldn't actually pray to it. It just adds to the shock that the Hound cares so little for the religion that he casually brings up a kind of taboo.
Tyrion's plan at Blackwater — too much left to chance?
- Going back to the Battle of Blackwater, Tyrion planned to send a ship laden with Wildfire into the thick of Stannis' fleet and then Bronn would shoot a burning arrow into the trail of stuff the ship left behind itself and detonate the whole load. Awesome plan, but why such an unreliable detonation method? Bronn could be the best archer in Westeros, it's still quite a tall order to send an arrow into a relatively small target in the middle of the night, not to mention that advance enemy scouts could get to him first. If the ship was pouring Wildfire out, couldn't set the trail ablaze from wherever they sent it from? Or falling that, surely they could find some brave lad willing to give his life for the delivery of an entire city who would hide on the ship and detonate it personally?
- The Doylist explanation is simple: its an adaptation-induced plot issue. In the book, the Battle of Blackwater doesn't rely on Bronn or anyone else shooting a fire arrow at a single ship. Rather, Stannis and his fleet are lured into battle with part of Joffrey's fleet, which Tyrion sent out with the realization that the ships were lost either way. Some of those ships happened to be packed with wildfire, with the explosion happening as a consequence of the battle between the two fleets. Having a big fleet battle in addition to the wildfire would have killed their budget, and in any case Tyrion on the show isn't quite so ruthless as his book counterpart, meaning he would be less likely to send his own men to die intentionally so Stannis can be caught in the blast. The Watsonian explanation? Much harder to come by. Maybe there were back-up archers with fire arrows in case he missed? Who knows?
- If you watch carefully, the fireship was leaking wildfire, leaving a large trail of wildfire behind it like an oil slick. All Bronn had to do was ignite the wildfire trail. He didn't necessarily have to hit the ship itself.
- If you read my post careful;y, I wrote that exact thing. That still seems quite an unreliable method. Why not ignite the trail from where it started?
- Three reasons. One, it shows off how great a shot Bron is and gives him an awesome moment. Two, it looks cooler on TV than some guy dropping a torch at the start of the trail. And three, it keeps whoever's lighting the flame far away from the wildfire so they don't go up in flames too. Yes, that could have been handled by just shooting at it closer, but see explanation two.
Tyrells, Littlefinger and Sansa — SPOILER ALERT
- So, if Tyrells and Littlefinger conspired to assassinate Joffrey, shouldn't Sansa's fate also be part of their plot? It's obvious that she'd have to be spirited away from the city immediately after the assassination, so they would have to plan this in advance as well. But if so, why is Peter taking her to the Vale, instead of Highgarden? She's still the key to North, isn't she? Even if she can no longer marry Loras, surely Tyrells can find some suitable match for her, like, say, his brother or something.
- Reason 1: The Tyrells want to remain at peace with the Lannister, and if they bring Sansa to Highgarden, the Lannisters might find out, which could cause problems. Reason 2: Petyr is creepily obsessed with Sansa and wants her close to himself, and since Sansa is currently on his ship, the Tyrells can't really control where he takes her.
- Sure, but they will know whether or not she arrived to whereever she should arrive.
- Yeah, anything the Tyrells could do with her would require her to divorce Tyrion, and regardless of his alleged crimes, them helping her do that (especially if they set her up with one of their own) would be seen as taking a valuable pawn from the Lannisters. They could do what LF's doing and hide her until the hour is ripe, but presumably he either persuaded them that he's better at that kind of thing, or just requested her as part of the deal. Also, with Loras engaged, the Tyrells don't appear to have anyone to wed her to.
- Well, in a short while Tyrion was expected to... depart, so it wouldn't be a problem. And if by some miracle he's aquitted, well... Valar Morghulis. As for angering the Lannisters, Tyrells were plotting to take her away earlier, so it does't look like they were afraid to sour their relations with Lannisters this way.
- The situation is different. Joffrey's just dead from poison, and Sansa is believed to have been on it. What kind of message would be sent, if fugitive Sansa suddenly appeared in Highgarden and married a Tyrell?
- Most likely, Littlefinger and Olenna only conspired to assassinate Joffrey, while smuggling Sansa out of the city was done on Littlefinger's own initiative. With all of the other Stark children missing or dead, it would make sense for Littlefinger to keep her close rather than hand her over to the Tyrells so he can have a claim to both the Vale AND Winterfell.
- Wouldn't the Tyrells want to have a claim to Winterfell as well?
- Yes. But to buy something (Joffrey's death with Sansa as a scapegoat) you have to give something (in this case, Sansa and her claim to the North).
- The above is true. Littlefinger is always pursuing his own goals, despite all alliances he makes. So, helping the Tyrells assassinate Joffrey was something he considered good (it would solidify his position as a "friend" to yet another powerful family, and the crime was done in such a way as not to hurt his friendship with the Lannisters), but saving Sansa was his own plan. In fact, everything points towards the original plan of Joffrey's murder to have Sansa as the scapegoat. They had her smuggle the poison to the wedding, something that wasn't necessary for any reason other than creating evidence against her (it's not like they'd have full body searches for all the people there, anyone could carry the poison on a simple vial), and she had the perfect motive.
- But wouldn't the Tyrells realise that he stole her? Only someone who was privy to the plan could've done it, so if not them, then it's obviously him.
- Not necessarily. Running away would be a very sensible reaction for Sansa at that moment, and then disappearing into the city would be a perfect consequence for a high-born, beautiful girl wandering alone. Sure, Cersei thinks there's more to it, and that she is definitely alive and safe somewhere, but she's completely paranoid (even if right).
- On the contrary, I think it's more logical to think that Tyrells (or Olenna, since there's no indication as yet that any other member of the family was involved) planned the most of the blame to fall on Tyrion from the start, and letting Sansa escape was just an act of kindness on their part. This is especially credible if you think how they're portrayed in the show to be actually caring about Sansa, unlike their book counterparts. Tyrion, on the other hand, is just another Lannister to them. Spiriting Sansa away to High Garden, on the other hand, wouldn't work since Cersei, sure of Sansa's complicity, is having men look for the girl everywhere; and if it was found out she was hiding in Highgarden that would pretty much amount to House Tyrell's confession to the crime. And what good is Sansa to them if they have to hide her true identity all the time? Remember with Margaery engaged to Tommen, they're still allies with the Lannisters. They just wanted to get rid of Joffrey, but the downfall of the whole House Lannister isn't something they want or expect, so they can't be planning to use Sansa any time soon (or ever).
- They had absolutely no way to know the circumstances leading to Tyrion's implication on the murder would happen. It all depended on Joffrey's impulsive actions leading Tyrion to the position of prime suspect. Maybe if Margaery was in the know, they could have implied she was pulling Joffrey's strings in that direction, but they make it quite clear this is not the case. It was a lucky coincidence, on the eyes of the Tyrells, but it couldn't possibly have been the original plan. Meanwhile, they have actively planted evidence against Sansa. Evidence that never gets used, but it's there nonetheless.
- In that case, they might have thought planting evidence against Sansa would keep them doubly safe and also be mostly harmless to anyone precisely because Sansa was going to be spirited away by Baelish.
- In the books, at least, the circumstances are at least partly set up by Littlefinger; he's the one who talked Joffery into the dwarf joust, knowing it would get under Tyrion's skin. While that isn't made explicit in the show, it's still potentially applicable.
Brienne in King's Landing
- Brienne was in King's Landing for weeks and had time to do things like drop in for a chat with Margaery, but never so much as spoke to Sansa, the girl she'd been sent there to protect? Even if she didn't know what she was going to do to fulfill her oath yet, surely an introduction was in order.
- Well, in "Two Swords", Sansa didn't seem in the mood to receive anyone, and Brienne could hardly do a thing without Jaime's support (which she essentially asked for in the scene when they watch Sansa praying, and he refuses).
- Also, the fact that the Starks have effectively been wiped out means Brienne really has nowhere to take Sansa to.
- Ironically, the Eyrie is probably her best bet. Of course, Brienne doesn't know that that's exactly where she's gone. Still, she could use a trustworthy protector, so it's not a completely lost cause.
- None of that explains her failing to even speak to her (as well, Brienne made it clear she still wanted to take Sansa out of King's Landing and didn't buy Jaime's argument that she was safest where she was).
- I think it'd be logical to think she might have been wary of attracting suspicion by approaching Sansa too soon. Despite being Jaime's protege (of sorts), it's known that she served Renly and Lady Catelyn in the past, a fact Cersei actually confronts her about in "The Lion and the Rose". Remember that Brienne had no way of knowing what was to come namely Joffrey getting murdered at his own wedding and Tyrion being accused, so she probably thought (despite her comment to Jaime) that Sansa was relatively safe and she had time to devise a discreet way of communicating with her.
- That's part of the Adaptation Decay caused by changes in timing. In the book, Brienne and Jaime only arrive in King's Landing after Sansa flees, and as such they never have a chance to interact. But having arrived earlier in the series, they still can't have Brienne and Sansa talk, as the driving point of Sansa's character at that point is that the shady escape plan (which is even shadier in the series, with the smaller amount of build up it had compared to the books) is all she has left.
CRASTER'S White Walkers?
In episode 04/01 (Oathkeeper) we saw one of Craster's sons being transformed into a White Walker
. Just how many of them are sons of him, too?
- Craster had 100 sons ("and more daughters than I can count!") and presumably gave all to the White Walkers. Gilly's son was Number 99, but he escaped. So the WW got 99 babies out of Craster's.
- Also, since he gave them only sons and not daughters, does it mean the White Walkers are a "males only club"?
- In the backstory, there is at least one female White Walker according to legend; the same legend of the Night's King, incidentally.
- More likely is that Craster gave them the boys because he wanted to keep the girls for himself.
- Do the White Walkers resort to kidnapping wildling babies, as well?
- We can't know for sure (yet) but there seems to be something ritualistic in the way Craster leaves his sons out for the Walkers to take. This to me suggests that the White Walkers either can't or prefer not to convert kidnapped babies.
- That being said, while we've seen dead wildling children among the White Walker's victims, we've never seen a dead wildling infant. This could be as simple as the show not wanting to expose us to such gruesomeness; it's a little far, even for Game of Thrones, but it could also be explained that whenever the White Walkers slaughter a Wilding Village, they also take the infants with them.
- I wouldn't be so sure. After all, we did see Janos Slynt killing a baby himself (on Joffrey's orders) after the other kingsguards could not do it. I think the idea of White Walkers raiding wildlings' posts, killing everyone and keeping any babies for conversion is not out of question. In Craster's case, it would be a case of a "gentleman's agreement" that is beneficial for both sides. This, of course, raises a new question: are there any other agreements of this kind in place?
- Could they do the same to a newborn giant, while we're at it?
- And if they ever go south of the Wall and reach Mole's Town, could they recognize Gilly's baby as their brother? Or, perhaps even, one of them recognize Gilly herself as mommy?
- I think it was implied that this was Gilly's first pregnancy. She was certainly less inclined to go along with Craster's "cult" than her colleagues are in "Oathkeeper".
- Or you could be onto something there. If all the babies are from Craster's wife-daughters then there would be some level of recognition. Especially with the fact the white walkers are supernatural to start with. Could Gilly and her son be the ones to save Westeros? Of course..
Forcing people to take The Black
So Janos Slynt (the commander of the goldcloaks) was forcibly removed from power and taken to The Wall, where he became a part of the Nights Watch. Here's the thing: Did they force him to take the Oath? I mean, why couldn't he been like "No, I don't want to be here, see ya." and then walked away? If he doesn't take the oath, he isn't a deserter. Likewise, when Jon was selected to be a Steward, he hadn't taken his Oath yet. Why couldn't he have been like "Fuck this, I'm not a fucking steward." and walk away?" Again, it isn't deserting if you haven't taken an Oath. I get criminals will probably be killed if they don't take the Oath, but Janos wasn't a criminal. He could probably come back to King's Landing and retain his former position; Since he played an instrumental role in securing the Throne, I'm sure Tywin would be sympathetic. Again, nobody has any legal cause to kill him if he doesn't want to take the Black. Its not like he was charged with anything, he was removed because Tyrion wanted his own attack dog as the head of the Goldcloaks.
- In Westeros, forcibly sending someone to the Wall is seen as a punishment, so nobody in King's Landing would warmly welcome back Janos Slynt for that reason, even if he could prove he didn't take any oath. Also, Tyrion didn't send him there just to put Bronn in his place — he disliked Slynt, who he considered untrustworthy and dangerous (let us remember he betrayed the previous Hand (Eddard Stark) and executed King Joffrey's order of killing all of Robert's bastards — there's that scene where a couple soldiers are visibly distraught about having to kill a baby, so Janos does it himself). Not even a pissed-off Tywin would undo all of Tyrion's actions as Hand, so Slynt couldn't come back and be received by the Lannisters.
- There are a few things to consider here. First of all, there is a difference between going to the Wall on your own will (like Jon did) or being sent there as punishment (what happened to Janos, as pointed out above). If Jon decided to not take the oath, he'd probably be allowed to get out. If Janos did, they'd execute him on the spot (which is usually the punishment people go to the Wall to avoid). Then we have the fact that taking the oath is kind of just a formality. I don't think anyone in the Wall expects a rapist or murderer to grow any more loyal after the oath is taken than they are before, they are there on a (life) sentence, and that will never change. And even if they do run away, oath or no oath, they're still a person wearing all black in a region of the world known for having people dressed in black who should not be allowed to roam free. They'd be better off running north and joining the wildlings (and some of them do).
Conquering a city isn't the same as holding it
- Isn't it kinda obvious that after you conquer a city you have to leave a garrison there before moving on to the next one? You'd think several hundred or even a thousand Unsullied per city would've been more than enough to prevent the Masters from retaking them, and since Daenerys relied more on infiltration tactics and inciting rebellions in her conquests, those soldiers she left wouldn't have mattered much. Even if she didn't realize that, being only a young girl, new to the ways of war, surely the seasoned veterans by her side did?
- Her goal through this whole thing was to fight her way to Mereen and seize their navy, so she could cross the narrow sea and re-take Westeros. Leaving garrisons behind would stretch her forces through Slaver's Bay, and she couldn't bring her full force to bear against the Lannisters. It's only when she learns that things are falling apart as soon as she moves on that she decides to stay and rule.
- Sure, but she freed dozens if not hundreds of thousands of slaves. Obviously they couldn't have all followed her. Did she give no thought at all to what would happen to them after she leaves for Westeros? And if she did, why would she expect any different scenario? And even she did, why didn't Jorah/Barristan/Daario try to reason with her on that? That's not some hot topic like bringing slavers to justice — it's pure common sense. Also, leaving garrisons behind doesn't mean those troops are lost forever — you can just as easily summon them back or pick them up on the way. And it's stands to reason that when you're launching a massive invasion, it's essential to have your rear lines covered to receive supplies from or fall back to if needs be, especially when it's such opulent rear lines as several rich and powerful cities. It's asinine to just leave something like that behind!
- No, she didn't give any real thought to it; that's the point. I imagine she thought she had crippled their powerbase enough that the masters would be incapable of enslaving the populations once again, and it didn't occur to her that some among the freed slaves may prove to be just as bad as the masters who ruled them. Dany has no concept of what it means to actually be a ruler, and no concept of the consequences of completely upsetting a society's status quo. As for why Jorah and Selmy didn't say anything, it's likely as not that they didn't really care; the goal has always been the Seven Kingdoms. What they leave in their wake is a distraction from that.
- She didn't anticipate an attack from the rear by the forces of Essos, as she had just sacked their cities and chopped off their leadership. She may have also overestimated the slaves ability to rule themselves as her one example of this were the Unsullied, who swiftly moved from a slave army to a volunteer army without so much as one desertion.
- Dany realizes that she was being naive by leaving and simply expecting everything to work out fine after she was gone. As for her advisers, they're warriors, not statesmen, and they're just not as concerned with the plight of the slaves as she is. Their queen granted them freedom, and now it's the freedmen's responsibility to do something with it. As far as her advisers are concerned, Dany is just passing through. Garrisoning troops in each city they pass would be counter to their ultimate goal of putting her on the Iron Throne. Only Dany feels continuing responsibility for the slave cities after she's freed them.
Davos and his loyalty to Stannis
- In the books, Davos Seaworth is loyal to Stannis to a fault even as Stannis increasingly falls under the sway of Melisandre. This actually makes sense, because for all his bad qualities he has quite a number of good ones as well, qualities which earn that loyalty. In the show, Stannis is presented as a much more overtly sinister figure, burning people for being 'unbelievers' as opposed to what he sees as betraying him in some way. He dismisses the horror of sacrificing Gendry by speaking contemptuously of his low birth, rather than invoking The Needs of the Many, and Melisandre wins him over to burning him alive with much greater speed and on much weaker evidence than his book counterpart. Eventually, after Davos sets Gendry free, Stannis is only dissuaded from killing Davos by what amounts to blackmail: Davos claims he'll need him to win lords to his cause. Even then, its clearly Melisandre who makes the decision for him, showing him to be a much weaker man than his book counterpart. Given all this, is anyone else at a loss as to why Davos doesn't just get on a ship and abandon Stannis to his fate? What possible reason could Show!Davos still have for following Show!Stannis, especially since unlike his book counterpart he doesn't even have any sons left whose futures he's hoping to insure by helping Stannis win his crown?
- Davos has known Stannis for the better part of twenty years at this point. Twenty years where he's proven to be a good man. He likely justifies it by this particular war and these particular hardships pushing Stannis to extremes, and believes(perhaps correctly, perhaps incorrectly) that once it's over Stannis will be his old self again, perhaps even learn a feel good lesson along the way.
- Not to mention Davos probably feels he owes a life debt to Stannis for only cutting off his fingers rather than his head.
Hey, why don't you let him cock a crossbow while you're at it!
- So Theon's Sister is in a perfect position to kill Ramsay. He almost literally turns his back on her as he reaches inside his pocket, slowly turns towards the Kennels, and threatens to let the dogs out. Remember what Karl said in the last episode? Jon had the excuse of being raised as a chivalrous Knight, but Yara is a literal pirate. It was three on the three and the odds were even at least, probably skewed towards her when Ramsay decides to threaten her with unlocking the door.
- Amen. Why the hell she didn't throw her axe into him, I'll never know.
- Book spoilers: Because Ramsay's not dead in the books. It doesn't justify her actions in the show, but the writers placed her in a position where she had to make a bad decision to preserve the canon.
- The scene is rather poorly explained, but after a second viewing I came to this interpretation: Theon made it clear that he's going to fight his rescuers every step of the way back, Dreadfort has a large garrison about to fall upon the Ironborn and Ramsay uses the dogs as a bargaining chip of sorts: if Yara kills him, they have no chance of getting away alive, but if they leave right away, he's going to give them a running chance. Since they have no hope of getting Theon back in his current condition, they cut their losses and run in the true Ironborn fashion. It could have been handled better, but there you go. It wouldn't have been wise for Yara to throw her axe either, since that would have left her weaponless and as good as dead.
Why would anyone want the Iron Throne considering the Iron Bank?!
- So you're one chance to claim he Iron Throne is by convincing the Iron Bank to back you. But then you are saying this: "I will use the money that you borrowed me to fund my efforts to claim the throne. After that I will not only spend all of my time repaying you my original loan to you, but I will also inherit the original tens of millions gold dragons debt that made the Iron bank say "Fuck The Irone Throne!" and loan me the cash the first place?
- Considering Tyrion's talk about the dangers of borrowing money last season, it's liable that when the Iron Bank starts to finance your enemies they have given up on the prospect of getting repaid from you. Half of the winning arguable was "Stannis will pay back what he owes," the other part was "once Tywin dies there will be nobody left whose competent enough to pay you back and you won't get any of that gold back anyway." There probably was an agreement somewhere in there where the Iron Bank would forgive the debt incurred under Joffrey in exchange for Stannis taking up all the debt that he would have inherited if he got the Iron Throne anyway as well as his loan. Still a lot, but survivable. As for Renly trying to take the throne that was at the very start of the war and he had so many men at his disposal that he was posed to win the war and thus wouldn't have accumulated that much debt more than what he was already expecting.
- The debt is probably tied to the family, not the throne. So, Joffrey inherited Robert's debt (the Iron Bank doesn't care whether or not he's a bastard), and added a lot to it. Stannis didn't inherit his brother's possessions, so his debt will be only his own. If the Lannisters are defeated, the current royal family's debt will likely cease to exist, and the Bank's investment will have failed.
- The debt is tied to the throne. The Iron Bank will want its due, in one way or another. If one debtor can't handle the challenge, they find someone who can. They don't forgive the debts of the realm just because there's a new guy in charge. But they aren't crazy or unreasonable. It doesn't matter if the repayment plan is 50 years, as long as every installment gets paid in full. All it matters is that the money flows and the investments prosper. Whoever wins the Iron Throne can easily squeeze the required sums out of the regions they conquered as war reparations, as long as they don't get too greedy for their own wealth. Just because the realm is broke doesn't mean that most of the great houses or trade guilds are.
- The debt doesn't necessarily have to be paid off in coin. I don't know if Stannis would be willing to, but in real world history, enormous national debts have often been paid off with land.
- It would make sense for the Iron Bank to be considerably more understanding with delayed payment from a king they had just helped bring to power, just so long as it was made clear payment would eventually be forthcoming. The alternative would be funding and installing yet another possible claimant to overthrow their previously supported claimant, then trying to overthrow him when he couldn't pay either, and on and on in a never ending cycle. That would be alarmingly stupid way to do business.
- It was implied that the Iron Bank already made a background check on Stannis before he even arrived in Braavos. It was Davos' speech that helped getting the loan, but they also probably know that Stannis will be running a tight ship once he's king, not spending too much on luxuries and has his priorities straight.
Were the Masters of Astapor idiots?
- They sell Denaerys soldiers in the middle of their city-whom she promptly orders to kill them and sack it. Did they not think anyone would try that? Why not? They clearly didn't have enough soldiers of their own to stop it, or some escape clause such as "Obey your new owner except if they order you to do anything that harms us." It seems like a foreseeable danger for sellers of trained killers.
- At first, they are reluctant to sell their entire "stock". It's only when Dany offers a dragon that the guy negotiating with her lets greed overcome common sense and he goes with it.
- Honestly? No, they probably didn't think anyone would try that. And in fairness, that wasn't an unreasonable belief. The Good Masters of Astapor are the only source of Unsullied soldiers. Sacking the city would be killing the goose that laid the golden egg. They just weren't counting on Daenerys being so mortally offended by their slavery-centric culture.
- I don't particularly like that explanation. It would make sense to "kill the goose" when you just got enough "eggs" to live comfortably your whole life, just to keep the value of the gold from plummeting due to the never-ending source. Or, to leave the metaphor behind, once you have thousands of Unsullied, killing the masters to make sure your enemy doesn't buy the next batch a few years from now sounds like a great idea.
- A few years from now your Unsullied will be years older, even if they haven't been killed or wounded in battle beyond recovery by then. Destroying Astapor will prevent you from hiring new Unsullied as much as anyone else. Furthermore, Kraznys was stupid enough to believe that a dragon behaves like an Unsullied and would obey his command as soon as he was holding its leash. If Dany tried to harm him, he'd order the dragon to fry her and the whole Unsullied army if necessary.
- Whether or not they thought anyone would try that is irrelevant. The point is that the slave master clearly had no respect for Dany (as his subtitled comments reveal plainly) and didn't think she would.
- Are the masters of Astapor idiots? Yep, pretty much. They were overconfident and contemptuous of Dany.
- From the perspective of Astapor, and really, the whole of Slaver's Bay, the very concept of being attacked has hardly ever occurred to them. The economy of the whole western half of Essos relies on Slavery and thus relies on them. The concept of someone in power having such a moral issue with slavery is utterly alien to them.
So The Lannisters don't care when they are framed? **SPOILERS**
- So it turns out that Jon Arryn was killed by Littlefinger and Lysa Arryn. The Starks believed, via letter by Lysa, that the Lannisters did it. They had motive (Joffrey's illegitimacy), means (Poisons in Pycelle's store) and opportunity (Everyone was in the Red Keep). But they did not do it. In the very first episode, we see Cersei and Jaime discussing Jon's death and whether he told anyone, and in retrospect it's kind of a Red Herring. In Season 2, Tyrion confronts Pycelle and accuses him of killing Jon Arryn but Pycelle says that he didn't actually poison him but withdrew treatment so that he would succumb to his illness. This begs the question, if the Lannisters knew that he was poisoned and that neither of them did it, why did they not bother to ask who poisoned Jon in the first place?
- Related to this. Why didn't Cersei defend herself from Ned Stark when he confronted her about it and simply decide that if the Starks think we are evil, we'll show them? Is it Pride, the fact that no one would believe them?
- Perhaps they did ask and simply never found an answer. They would have had to find evidence linking Lysa to the poisoning, after all, which would take some doing with Littlefinger working to keep it hidden. Or perhaps they just decided not to look a gift-horse in the mouth. If someone wants to poison Jon Arryn at the exact moment he's been getting too close to their secret, all the while making it look like he simply took ill and died, then great. It saves them from having to get their hands dirty.
- Tyrion is the only one of the Lannister siblings who could possibly get close to the truth, and he was probably too certain Cersei did it to even try looking deeper into it.
- They have no reason to believe that there was a framing. As far as most people know, Jon Arryn really did die of a sudden fever and the Starks just assumed otherwise. Lysa tried to have Tyrion killed for it, but he probably chalks it to Lysa being grief striken and crazy unstable, and no one gives a shit about that anymore since he came out clean of that. Pycelle knows that Arryn was poisoned, but he believes it was Cersei and decided to not treat him or talk of it in order to protect her, and through Pycelle Tyrion assumes Cersei did it as well... but Tyrion gained nothing from confronting Cersei about it, so he didn't, and Cersei and the rest of the Red Keep still know no better.
- Related to this is the case of Tyrion's trial. Same modus operandi - poison someone, frame somebody else - only where the earlier one was done privately, here it's in public. Cersei obviously believes that Tyrion did it and Jaime knows Tyrion is innocent and probably thinks Sansa did it, but Tywin, as per Tyrion, knows fully well that his son is innocent. Isn't he even remotely interested in finding the real culprit? Even if the victim wasn't in the final analysis, a great loss, the fact is that the death happened right under Tywin's nose and is obviously an insult and affront to Lannister complacency. Something like that should make him go berserk and unleash a fullscale investigation, instead he's deciding to use the trial as an excuse to send his son to the Wall and what.
- Here, perhaps, the reason is pretty much the same (horse, gift, mouth), with the siding of Tywin actually knowing or at least suspecting who it was, because if not Tyrion or Sansa, then who the hell else could it be if not the Tyrells? But they need the Tyrells, like they need bread to eat (literally), so Tywin cannot afford to launch that investigation. Besides, the culprit, whoever they were, was kind enough to implicate Tyrion and give Tywin an excuse to finally get rid of him, and he wouldn't spurn such a generous gift for the sake of some silly justice (which was, probably, intentional on Olenna's part).
- While Tywin doesn't seem to believe Tyrion is to blame, he probably does think Sansa did it, so the matter is settled. And even if he doesn't, he could always conduct a more in-depth investigation after Tyrion's trial, and the true culprit is relaxed thinking it was a perfect cover-up.
- I imagine that at least partly, Tywin's apathy comes from realizing that Joffery largely brought his death on himself by being, well, Joffery. He's likely planning on making an example of whoever did do it; the Lannisters are very much hunting for Sansa right now. He might be willing to let the Tyrels slide if he realizes or finds out they were involved, but if he finds out about Littlefinger's involvement, he's doubtful he'll receive any mercy.
- Well, first of all the Crown must find a culprit and make an example out of him. If they don't, this sends the message that the Lannister-backed Crown is weak and anything can strike at them with impunity. However, they don't have more culprits than Tyrion and Sansa, even though rationally they should conclude that they are innocent, but Sansa has fled successfully already so the only culprit they have is Tyrion. Find him innocent and declare that Sansa is the only killer = a girl made a mockery of the Crown and got away with it. Find him guilty and not punish him accordingly = the Crown makes itself the mockery. Either way, the Crown is screwed. But there is another catch: Tywin and Cersei are not thinking rationally about it. Cersei has let her hatred of Tyrion convince her that he really killed Joffrey. Tywin's own hatred of Tyrion has made him seize the opportunity to finally get rid of him forever; first by sending him to the Wall, and after he pissed all over that and publicly defied his father asking for a trial by combat, by letting him lose the trial by combat and getting executed. They can always find about who really killed Joffrey later, and if not, they have been outsmarted and can do nothing about it. Yet the PR disaster for the Crown has been averted with Tyrion's death.
Lady Lysa Aryn died three days ago!...So what?
- The Hound has brought Arya all the way to the Bloody Gate. He announces himself, his hostage, and his intentions. Lysa's death is revealed, the Hound's face falls, and Arya reveals in the irony of it all. But...Lysa had a son. Robin. Lord of the Vale. Arya's cousin. Her blood, her family. Who has access to all the same money and riches that his mom had. So how does this change anything for Sandor and his plan? Does he have any less reason to expect that the cousin Arya has never met wouldn't do the same as the aunt she had never met?
- The answer lies in the fact that Sandor served in King's Landing when Jon Arryn was still Hand to the King. Jon lived there with Lysa and Robin. That's how Tyrion warned Catelyn about her sister's insanity in Season 1. Sandor knew Jon and Lysa Arryn and likely little Robin as well. The fact is, even if he only knew Lysa in passing, Robin is still a little boy unlikely to care about a cousin he has never met, and moreover a mentally disturbed kid who likes to throw stuff out the Moon Door. And if the Hound finds out that Petyr Baelish is in charge of the Vale as Lord Protector, that will probably make him less likely to deal with them since the Hound was there when Baelish betrayed Ned Stark in the Throne Room and knows him as a Lannister stooge.
- Robin is an orphan child. Lysa's death is a changer because they don't know how she died and who is controlling Robin now. Can they be sure she has not just been murdered by the Lannisters and whoever is in there is going to take Arya? They have not disclosed yet if this means they'll leave the Vale, but if they do, it'll probably be under some reasoning similar to this.
- The scene ends before they decide what they'll do next. The Hound would probably ask "who rules over the Vale now?", and assume it's now under strict Lannister rule when the answer to that is "Littlefinger married Lysa, and is now taking care of Robin". Then, there's nothing else they can do but flee.
- Which begs the question how are they supposed to leave? It's Arya Stark, as far as the gate guard are aware, she's the last heir to Winterfell, and anyway she's a noblegirl. At the very least they'd want to invite her in and present her to the owners of the castle, our of common curtesy if nothing else. And there's obviously nothing Hound can do to stop them.
- There is nothing they can really do if the Hound decides to leave, specially if Arya shows no signs of wanting to go there. They wouldn't leave their posts to run after the two of them, and I somehow doubt the soldiers of the Vale would just kill the Hound and take the girl (likely against her will), specially if all evidence they have of her being Arya are their own words. It's not their business, they have nothing to gain by doing that.
- Leave their posts? It would be an especially useless garrison has no capacity to sally out with say 20 riders and round up anyone they wish to question further.
Wont that kind of piss off Lord Frey? And also, everybody else?
- So, Lord Bolton makes his Bastard son not a bastard anymore. That's cool, good for him, but Roose just got married to Frey's daughter or granddaughter. I guess i can't say for sure, but I'm pretty sure Frey married her off so his grandson/Great Grandson would be Warden of the North, which would make the Frey's even more powerful than they already are. But if Ramsay is legit now, he's the Eldest Bolton, and that means he's the heir to the North, right? Wont that really, really piss off Walder? Or is Ramsay exempt from inheriting the Warden position? Also, I highly doubt any lord in Westeros wants a bastard, even a legitimized bastard, to be one of the most powerful people in the Seven Kingdoms.
- Well Ramsay's worthiness as heir to the North will probably become an issue in the coming season if it follows the plot of A Dance with Dragons. As for Walder Frey's concern, remember Ramsay's legitimization comes straight from the Iron Throne itself. This is Tywin Lannister's plot and Frey will not move a finger to oppose the Great Tywin. Anyway, Walder Frey is the Lord of Riverrun and the new Top Dog of the Riverlands so he's amply rewarded. Second, Roose becoming the Warden of the North is not the same as the King in the North, having a Frey girl as Robb's queen would have made Walder Frey royalty despite formerly being a vassal to the Tully High Lords. Now that he has become a High Lord, marrying his daughter to another High Lord is hardly the same thing.
- The simplest answer is yes, this would make it much less likely for a future Warden of the North to have Frey blood, so you can bet that Walder won't like it. Just how badly he'll take it, and how much Roose cares, is a matter we may or may not see in the future.
- Unlike Robb, Roose is perfectly aware of how much of a backstabbing bastard Frey is. He's not going to fall into the same trap Robb did.
- Also, while it hasn't really been brought up in the show, in the books a big part of Roose's character is that he believes "boy lords", kids becoming lord of the house before they've reached adulthood, is the surest way for a house to fall to ruin. Roose isn't a young man anymore. He probably won't die of old age by the time his potential kids with Walda reach adulthood, but there's still a better than average chance he'll die of something. Meanwhile he has an adult son already. Ramsay's simply the safer bet, in Roose's mind. Besides, Roose has to figure that Ramsay would probably kill Walda's children after Roose was dead, anyway.
Elia Martell, say her name! Why?
- I understand the impulse, Revenge Before Reason, sure, but why would Oberin expect Clegane to cooperate and confess? At first, maybe, he could hope that the Mountain would be dumb enough to brag about the deed, but later it became pretty clear that he isn't going to. Moreso, when he's lying there wounded, in pain, why the hell did Oberin think Clegane would humor him? I'd understood if he started torturing Clegane, stabbing him again, wriggling the spear and so on, prying the confession out of him, but he seemed to expect the Mountain to just talk... why? Out of goodness of his heart? To make peace with gods?
- Try and look at it from Oberyn's perspective. For twenty years, he and his family had to stand by and watch the Lannisters profit from Clegane's atrocities. It's not explained in the series yet, I am sure it will eventually, but in the books, Dorne has the smallest population of the Seven Kingdoms and doesn't have a big enough army to wage a war on vengeance a la Robb Stark, doing so would have led to the Dornish being killed in open conflict since their main strength is their geographic advantage. They are best at defense and not offense, leaving Dorne and trying to invade the other six kingdoms which by now had become totally pro-Robert is not a war they can win. So Oberyn had to stew by the side for all those years all the while the Lannisters become royalty and Cersei usurps what in their minds is Elia's role as Queen Mother of the Royal Children, and those children being incestuous bastards moreover. That level of impunity built on vicious violence typified by Tywin Lannister makes Oberyn's skin crawl and that's why he got carried away. He wanted to expose the Lannisters for the sham that they were, and take down that attack dog Gregor Clegane who actually did the crucial action that ensured their hegemony, murder and rape the earlier queen and her children, and then with Jaime killing Aerys (for different, moral but private reasons) essentially blackmails Robert into, literally, getting in bed with them.
- Even Ned Stark hated Tywin for the same reasons, for him the Lannisters soured a Rebellion that was after all a just war against an evil King who committed atrocities, how can you establish justice by committing further atrocities and then letting a monster like Ser Gregor Clegane go scott-free and at the very least not submit Jaime to an inquiry or a trial for breaking his vows. He was just as eager to order Beric Dondarrion and his crew to attack Gregor Clegane when Tywin decided to set them loose on the Riverlands.
- Well, Gregor had no reason to admit to the murder/rape in the last 19-odd years because it would cost him his life, or at the really very very least, his livelihood serving the Lannisters. Both become moot when he is already going to die. So, if Gregor was *minimally* remorseful for his actions, he might confess them in his last minutes. He wasn't, though...
- I don't think Gregor fears any kind of repercussion for his acts. The only reason he never "confessed" his crimes before the battle is just that he isn't the type of man who would brag about his feats on a tavern, and during the battle he had no reason to answer the annoying guy who would soon be dead. And in the context of the series, Tywin really had no reason to order Elia killed, much less raped (in the books Oberyn believes he told the Mountain to specifically kill her because of a previous slight her mother did to Tywin, but this is never mentioned in the series). As for the children, while it's an incredibly cowardly act, it is the most pragmatic thing to do in the situation, and war is war. Tywin had no reason to fear such a confession, it would just be pardoned as a necessary evil to guarantee the Targaryen madness is gone for sure.
- Tywin was banking on Robert becoming king and marrying Cersei to him. That only worked if all Targaryens were killed or driven into exile, and Elia alive (and possibly pregnant) was a risk. Raping her first was The Mountain's own doing, though.
- Tywin denies it though, and Elia was not pregnant at the time. Going off the books Tywin didn't intend for Elia to die; he gave orders to have both her children die since they were Targaryens and thus could inherit the throne, but never gave any such order for Alia. Gregor, being Gregor, raped and killed her anyway because he was never told otherwise. While that doesn't automatically mean that's how it happened in the show (and considering that Gregor is probably dead and Tywin has already said what happened to Alia was something Gregor decided on his own and has no reason to say otherwise to anyone), it does work with established facts.
- Just for completeness sake, in the books, Tywin also says that at the time he hadn't quite realized what he had with Gregor; he considered him just a big guy who could swing a sword. It was only after what Gregor did to Elia that he realized he had a walking, talking, psychotic weapon of terror.
- Tywin's attack on King's Landing wasn't any pragmatic decision to end the war. It was purely selfish and opportunistic. He had sat out of the entire rebellion and was racing Ned Stark's own march to the capital and he wanted to make up for lost time real quickly so he sent the Mountain to kill Rhaegar's children.
- We wasn't finished yet. Until Gregor dies, the trial is still going. If Oberyn hasn't been been surprised, he almost certainly would have continued trying to beat a confession out of Gregor.
Flaming Barrels of Crazy
- When the wildlings were approaching the gates, the people on the Wall dropped several barrels onto them. I understood that the barrels were holding oil, so they would then light it up to prevent the enemy from messing with the gates. But they never do. What was the point then? Sure, those barrles smashed a few people, but I doubt that was the intended effect.
- Later they are loading another barrel on the ramp, this one definitely with oil, they puncture it and then accidentally light it up before it can be dropped and burn themselves (at this moment I can imagine Bronn giving a smug "told you do" grin). Uhm, what were they trying to achieve exactly? Obviously the barrel will smash upon hitting the ground and spill the oil anyway, so what's the point of puncturing it up there?
- He wasn't trying to puncture it, it was stuck on the ramp and he was trying to push it off before it lit the mechanism on fire. He accidentally punched a hole in it and kaboom.
- What the point of barrels in the first place? Why not just soak the ground in front of the gates with the oil beforehand and then simply shoot fire arrows into it once the enemy walks over the oil field? Even with them being caught off-guard they still had at least some time before the attack, and you'd think they would've done it earlier as a general defence measure, since in that cold the oil would definitely not evaporate (Would it freeze though and would it prevent lighting it up?).
- First part of barrels was not lit and was probably filled with things like shrapnel, small stones, nails etc basically serving as a giant flechette/anti-infantry bomb. Falling from such a height would produce a LOOOT of kinetic energy allowing shrapnel to decimate those poor guys. And the second one was filled with oil to scare that mammoth and wound/kill anyone who can get him back. Pretty solid tactics if you ask me.
- The Wall is 700 feet tall, if they just poured the oil from the top the wind could cause it to land anywhere except on their intended target. As for spraying oil on the ground before the battle and lightning it later, they are well bellow zero and the oil might freeze or not light (canola oil freezes at -15 or so celsius, olive oil freezes well bellow that but is unlikely to be grown and produced in the North, given the climate).
- They had barrels of sand AND barrels of oil. At the beginning they were tossing the sand.
Those gigantic mammoths. How can they (still) be alive?
- What we've seen of the lands north of the Wall are some thick boreal forests, some snow-filled valleys and barren mountains (and that's not counting the Lands of Always Winter, which are even worse). Given this, how can this ecosystem support a (presumably herbivorous) enormous mammoth, like the one that participated in the Windling Army, never mind an entire herd? In addition to hundreds of thousands of men? Direwolves and bears (and humans, while we're at it), being carnivorous, are actually easier to explain, but they need herbivores down the food chain.
- Come to think of it, there are plenty of ravens as well north of the Wall, so there should be a sizable population of rodents, too.
- As you can see, further south, there are still plenty of trees with foliage. Perhaps the mammoths feed on those, or there's simply an unexplored section of the North where they still thrive. The entire area north of the Wall is basically a giant blank spot on the map.
- Walking With Beasts showed the mammoths living in the tundra during the summer but feeding in evergreen forests during the winter.
How could Bran's party avoid the wildling army?
- This has been avoided the entire season, but now the question must be begged: how has Bran's party avoided contact with the wildling army? There's just too many of them to be able to simply avoid being spotted and they're clearly not experts in stealth travelling (after all, they were caught by the Night's Watch renegades).
- Bran's party simply could have gone around the army. Even with a hundred thousand people, they won't cover THAT much of a area that it would be impossible to bypass them. Plus, ideally, they would all be grouped together as they march to the Wall, and would only disperse when they reach the actual battle line. Also, the Wildlings at this point aren't exactly concerned with stealth so they could be spotted miles away. Remember, Bran's group only got caught by the mutineers because they stupidly wandered too close to Craster's Keep. There's no way they would try to approach Wildlings.
- The army is close to the Wall and Castle Black. Bran and co. went through a secret passage at Night's Fort, which is long ways off, out of the way of any Wildlings, especially now that they've conveniently gathered in one spot. Right now their only threat are the White Walkers and their wights.
- The HBO maps show that Craster's Keep is northwest of Castle Black. If Bran and Mance Rayder walk straight paths, they can pass next to each other without meeting.
No armor for the Night's Watch?
- Beyond the bulky, seemingly wooden armor they use for practice and sparring, the Knight's Watch seems to be limited solely to leather and fur for armor. Why? Surely they could get mail or plate armor.
- Because the Night's Watch is essentially a penal battalion. They're manned with the dregs of society and receive little to no support from the Seven Kingdoms because nobody considers the Wildlings or the White Walkers a serious threat. All the way back in Season 1, you can see the Night's Watch leadership pleading with Tyrion to convince the Crown to provide more support. They barely have enough food to keep their own men properly fed, much less keep them armed and equipped.
- That, and armour is pretty uncomfortable to wear. Most people on the Night's Watch are low-born, and aren't used to wearing heavy armour. It's no wonder the few people who do have heavier protection are either ex-knights or ex-lords (Alliser Thorn and Jeor Mormont, who both wear some sort of scale mail are both examples).
Why were the dragons free and unsupervised in the first place?
Honestly, how could Dany and co. not see this coming? They've been flying away and killing livestock at will for months. Harming an innocent person
was bound to happen sooner than later.
- Because as this season has shown, Dany is not one of the most foresighted of individuals. Everything she's tried to do has ended up blowing up in her face.
- How about the people around her? Jorah, Selmy, Missandei, Grey Worm? Did they never say anything?
- If that one scene with Jorah is any indication they might already have warned her several times, but she still underestimates them.
- None of them know anything when it comes to dragons. They knew the Targaryens used to ride them, and generally had them under control, that's all. And seeing how the dragons used to be completely submissive to Dany's commands in the past, they probably thought it was some sort of innate talent. Just like you wouldn't expect a trained hunting dog to go attacking any random human. Everyone was caught off-guard by the fact that the dragons are, after all, wild creatures that need to be properly tamed like any other animal.
- Dany has been shown not to always listen to advisers. Earlier in the season, both Jorah and Selmy recommended that she take Mereen's navy and sail for King's Landing, and she overruled them and decided to stay. Heck, Jorah even warned her that her dragons were wild animals and therefore uncontrollable, and she didn't listen to him.
- There is also the simple fact that Daenerys has until now had an unusual amount of control over her dragons and they have never attacked humans without her commands. Drogon killing and burning that child comes completely of the left field. Also remember that scene with the goat herder, where Drogon clearly spares that child and attacks the goat only to fly off, this without Daenerys or anyone ordering him. In retrospect it was probably the last withering of his previous instincts (unless of course, as some suspect, both in the books and outside, that Drogon did not in fact kill that child and it's part of someone's gambit to force Dany to lock her up).
- Flying around, burning and snatching livestock when it pleases him is not indicative of Drogon's having a good training. As for the gambit theory, I have a hard time believing that 1) a father would go with that plan, 2) if he did, or wasn't the real father, he'd be able to fake his heartbreaking reaction like that, and 3) Daenerys' court wouldn't have a way to corroborate the identity and background of any demandant that showed before her.
- As to the livestock killing, she probably saw that as perfectly fine. I mean sure it's annoying, but she could probably just set up a system to deal with it in the exact same way she dealt with the first guy, pay them back handsomely and they probably won't complain. From her perspective it really wasn't hurting anyone. Yeah some goats died, but it's not like she's particularly broken up over something she can just pay for. It's a surprise to her though when her "children" suddenly start murdering people without her knowledge, they'd only ever done that when she told them to. Combine that with her misguided idea that she is able to control them, and you can see what led her to this conclusion.
- Why did neither Shae nof Tywin scream or call for help, when Tyrion was murdering them? Shae spent quite a bit of time fighting him and yet didn't utter a single word or alarm. Tywin was shot in the gut, which had to hurt like hell, and still he kept remarkably quiet.
- I was under the impression that there were no guards around Tywin's quarters, especially since he was sleeping with Shae at the time. Also, apparently the privy is located rather far from the bedroom so it was likely Tywin wouldn't have heard Shae. In Shae's case, she was probably too shocked to really make any noise, and when Tyrion started strangling her, it was too late.
- Also, Tywin's pride might have had something to do with it. He didn't want to look weak by calling for help, and even if he did, Tyrion would just shoot him again anyways.
- Tywin intended to defuse the tyke bomb, but he only managed to enrage Tyrion because he never understood Tyrion's personality. This resulted in him getting a bolt to the bowels. Too shocked to do anything (like calling for help), he immediately received a second bolt in the heart and died. As for Shae, she was just her usual impulsive, not very smart character. She saw herself screwed and her gut reaction was to defend herself with a knife, rather than relying on others (which she had never done - ironic, I know, considering her profession).
- Actually he spent quite a bit of time with the first bolt in his guts, looking surprised and disowning Tyrion, while in reality he should've been wailing to the Seven Heavens. As for Tyrion shooting him the second time, sure, but at least they would seize him and punish him for it. And what's there to be shocked at? His son, who hates him and is a dead man walking, is aiming a crossbow at him. That can only go one way. The same with Shae. She wasn't shocked - she went for the knife!
- That was basically Shae's fight or flight response. Shae chose to fight, and instinctively attacked Tyrion. There was very little indication she was thinking clearly at the outset of the fight.
- Even if Tywin did call out, there would be nobody to hear him. That section of the castle was completely devoid of people. Tywin most likely knew this, which is why he at first tried to talk Tyrion down, and when that didn't work, used his last words to try and spite him.
- In addition to all of the above, Shae doesn't think to call for help because in her belief it won't do any good. You can only imagine how many times she's been abused by a noble client while his guards stood by outside, uncaring of her screams. Caught in the moment, she doesn't stop to remember that this time its different, that the man threatening her is actually more on the outs with the nobility than she is and that for once the guards would be on her side.
- Likewise, Tywin doesn't call for help because to call for help is to admit emotionally as well as intellectually that he's actually in danger, that his despised dwarf of a son is actually a mortal threat to him. Tywin is refusing to acknowledge that his son is the master of the situation and that Tywin cannot possibly face him down without help. If he talks, threatens, or cajoles Tyrion into putting the crossbow down than Tywin has won; he's yet again proven himself, in his own mind, superior to Tyrion. Having to call in guards to kill Tyrion for him means that Tywin acknowledges that Tyrion has defeated him in single "combat", and worse yet, does so under circumstances where Tywin will never be able to get his pride back by defeating Tyrion later at anything (as Tyrion will of course be dead). Now, I don't imagine that all this consciously ran through Tywin's head as he sat there, but its quite likely why he tried to talk Tyrion down with obvious bullshit rather than simply sound an alarm.
- In short, Shae didn't call for help because she was too downtrodden to believe that anybody would come to help her. Tywin didn't call for help because he was too proud to admit he needed any. Two opposite extremes, same end result. Rather poetic, really.
- Neither of them had the luxury of time to rely on guards saving them. Tywin has a cocked crossbow pointed at him. He knows that the moment he screams, he gets shot. His only recourse is to convince Tyrion to lower the crossbow. For Shae, Tyrion is only a few steps away from her when she sees him. She only has time to grab a knife before he's on top of her trying to kill her. Even if she were so inclined to rely on guards to save her, there's no time for them to find her and intervene. She's on her own.
- I tend to think Shae wouldn't call out for anyone out of pride and anger too. Unlike the books!Shae, who is only out to serve her own interests, series!Shae is very clearly developed as a character who actually cared for Tyrion and resolved to do what she did at least partly because of her broken heart, as an attempt to get back at a lover who abandoned her. So she fights back rather than calling for anyone because her bitter feelings towards Tyrion have been her motivation all this time, more than her self-preservation instinct. Therefore what she immediately wants to do is not to save herself but to fight and hurt Tyrion.
- And good point above, why are there no guards?! Because of Shae? Bullshift, they are mooks, their masters' love affairs is the last thing that should concern them!
- Unlike Robert whose whoring was already common knowledge, Tywin actually cares about his image and reputation. If he's going to have a love affair, he sure as hell is not going to risk a couple of mooks finding out and spreading gossip. Plus, since he was in the Red Keep, there's the possibility that Tywin believed that he didn't NEED guards. Either way, the secret route Tyrion took let him bypass any guards he would have run into normally.
Why didn't the Child of the Forest better protect Bran's party?
- So the Three-Eyed Raven watches "with a thousand eyes and one", and has been watching Bran "for a long time". Both he and the Children of the Forest who live around should have known perfectly well Bran's party was about to arrive and prepare for them. It should have been as simple as one of them standing in the entrance and warning them something along the lines of "Be careful with this last plain! It's infested with wights! Take this detour over the higher rocks." Jojen died for no good reason, really.
- Don't see how there is another entrance to that cave beneath that hill, unless there's a hole at the top of the hill to drop below. I guess the basic implication is that the Old Man and the Children expected Bran but they were never sure as to the "when" he would reach them. Or maybe, the kind of magic they are doing demands a sacrifice as Miri Maaz Duur stated. It should be noted that Jojen doesn't die during this section in the book, and in the books Bloodraven had the wisdom to send a Token Good Teammate White Walker Coldhands to escort Bran through the landscape beyond the wall(he was waiting for them right after Sam let them pass at the end of Season 3), that was the guy who fought off all those wights. I suppose once they had him Adapted Out, they had to kill off one of the kids to play fair.
- Considering the three-eyed raven's powers, he certainly knew exactly how close to the heart tree Bran and company were. The more likely scenario is that, just like Jojen, he has seen the future, knows exactly how things will transpire, and doesn't have any reason to try to meddle with the events. He could try to save Jojen, but depending how the green seer visions work this would either be a futile effort, or it would put in risk other things he has taken for granted (say, saving Jojen might put Bran in a real risk of dying due to unforeseen changes in the scene). Jojen himself knew pretty well the conditions surrounding his own death, and never did anything to move away from this burden.
Sympathy towards the wildlings? Night's Watch good or bad?
- How sympathetic are the viewers supposed to be towards the wildlings? Let's ignore the horrible cannibal bald ones for a moment. Mance Rayder is clearly leading the wildlings south because of the White Walker threat. The Night's Watch know full and well that this threat is real, so it stands to reason that they know that the wildlings will eventually be wiped out. So.. ignoring the crazy cannibals, why don't they let them south? Is it a simple case of "it's our land" and possibly racism? Because considering the validity of the threat, that makes the Night's Watch look like a bunch of dicks. I know Mance Rayder is attacking.. but maybe he didn't need to attack and did he ever consider negotiating (which would make him stupid if there were an alternative to Attack Attack Attack which he has ignored)? It just seems that the actual reason of why they are trying to cross the wall is never addressed or commented on by the Night's Watch. Something like "Yeah they're obviously trying to cross the wall to get away from the White Walkers. Unfortunately we can't let them, and it will be sad that they die, but a lot of them are uncouth and it will screw us over badly", would go a long way to showing the Night's Watch have considered the situation. All they ever say is "the wildings are marching on the wall and we must stop them" and it comes across as them being very short-sighted and vicious. Also consider that the decision to repel any wildlings attempting to cross was made long before the wildlings started raiding the north. So are we supposed to be on the side of the Night's Watch?
- Like many conflicts on the show, there's supposed to be sympathetic opinions to be had for both sides. The Wildlings really just want to get away from the White Walkers, but their very culture is incompatible with that of the southerners, they would keep living as they always have, raiding their neighbours, stealing women, having bloodfeuds and such, and not see any problem with that kind of lifestyle, so it's also understandable why the southerners want to keep them away. There really isn't a one good solution to this dilemma, because if they all die at the hands of the White Walkers, that's going to make the battle to follow even more difficult. So yeah, there are no good choices to be had.
- As pointed out on The Children's recap page, even if you accept that Mance himself is an honorable man who only intends to hide behind the wall, attempting to control a hundred thousand people who don't like being controlled is a large act of faith. There's also a lot of deep set prejudices on both sides, and not entirely unfounded prejudices, either.
- In the worst-case-scenario (and the scenario the southerners believe in by default), letting the wildlings south of the Wall just means they'll need to wipe them out themselves (because of the aforementioned pillaging and raping that's part of their culture and they're unwilling to leave behind), and many people from the Seven Kingdoms will die or otherwise suffer for that. Basically, the wildlings have the very same negative traits as the ironborn, but are even more stubborn when it comes to respecting authority. Technically, this is not the business of the Night's Watch (their mission is to protect mankind from the Walkers, not fight for any specific culture or nation), but centuries of a twisted perspective makes them think of themselves as just keeping the wildlings at bay.
- The conflict is tragic in that its both pointless and inevitable. The values of the Wildlings and the Night's Watch and the Seven Kingdoms are incompatible. The Wildlings practice their own religion, a kind of proto-democracy, allow women equal rights and look down on Southerners for being "kneelers", the Southerners see Wildling as savages who need a King to tell them what to do. Deliberate Values Dissonance and Protagonist-Centered Morality is at play here, in that we don't get a Wildling perspective really, even in the books, we see them the way the Night's Watch and Jon Snow sees them and the Battle shows that there are heroes on both sides who are mourned by both. The Wildlings have no choice but to invade the Seven Kingdoms because the White Walkers will turn them into a zombie horde and the Night's Watch are too undermanned and divided to contemplate the wisdom of letting Wildlings through to fight the White Walkers, and if the Night's Watch do that then the Seven Kingdoms might start questioning their purpose.
The most backwards blackmail ever?
- What exactly was Cersei thinking when she "threatened" to revel her affair with Jaime, and, more importantly, why did Tywin seem to take that threat seriously? I mean, surely even she has to understand that if she reveals that secret, she's dead, and Tommen and Jaime most likely as well? After all, she cheated on the king, he fornicated with king's wife, and their bastard usurped the throne. Yeah, they will either be torn apart on the spot, or surrenderred to Stannis to be burnt alive. So it would be kinda opposite of the Blackwater episode, where she was willing to give Tomment a painless death instead of violent, whereas here she's condemning him to a horrible death rather than... no death at all.
- You are right that it was an empty threat and that logically it does not make sense. She says that to spite Tywin who was clinging, against all evidence, that the boy on the throne have a legitimate claim. That said, considering the situation at the time, the Lannisters having defeated their strongest enemies and having the support of the Tyrells, if Cersei and Jaime went public and claimed that their relationship ought to be condoned like the Targaryens, meant that they could presumably meet every challenge that came their way. The Tyrells get to have their daughter be queen which they would not get if Stannis has his way (he hates the Tyrells for their fleeting loyalties and for nearly starving him at Storm's End) so in her mind, she thinks she's safe. The fact is that the people of Westeros, as of present, have two choices, one an incestuous, duplicitous family that has lied, cheated and usurped the throne of a beloved rebel king, the other, the Rebel King's brother who is practically unknown, who worships a foreign religion and is supported by a woman who wants to destroy their religious traditions. People generally prefer the side of those who don't want to change their lifestyles. The other thing about Cersei's gambit is that Tywin simply cannot risk the Lannisters going on record. It's the basis of everything.
- You're thinking about this logically. Cersei is not. Cersei has the mentality of a family annihilator; one of those fathers who kills his family to "protect them". She would rather see Tommen dead and the house's legacy in ashes than not have influence in Tommen's life.
- We don't know whether or not she's bluffing. However, she knows that Tywin can't risk calling her on it. There's a plausible chance that she's just crazy enough to do it, so it's an effective threat.
- But Tywin could've declared her "ill" and confined her to her quarters (shouldn't be too hard - he had Pycel in his pocket and he was her father - I doubt anyone would (dare) question him) "for her own good" until she's shipped off to Highgarden, and then she would be Tyrels' problem.
- He couldn't prevent her from eventually confessing without throwing her in a dungeon for the rest of her life.
Dany needlessly keeping secrets
- In And Now His Watch Is Ended she offers to trade one of her dragons to the Good Masters in exchange for their Unsullied soldiers. Alright, turns out that she was planning a double cross the entire time. But why didn't she just tell Jorah and Selmy before she publicly made the offer? It's not like she didn't have ample opportunity, she had no reason to fear them telling anyone else and it would have avoided the embarrassment of the two of them openly warning her that her apparent plan was crazy.
- That reaction by Jorah and Barristan is precisely why she didn't tell them. Kraznys the slaver thinks she is an idiot and naive child who doesn't know what she's doing, what better way to continue misdirecting him than by having her older, experienced guardian/retainers react in genuine shock to what is, from all outward appearances, an insane impulsive decision. Kraznys thinks, this girl is a real idiot, she doesn't know bargaining and she's arrogant enough to not listen to her experienced advisers. The other reason is also simply asserting her authority. She likes Jorah and Ser Barristan but she wants to remind them that she's the Queen and does not always depend on advice on them. It's a way of asserting her control over them too. After the Sack of Astapor, Barristan and Jorah are so amazed by her charisma and intelligence that they'll literally follow her to the Doom of Valyria.
Baby survives trip to polar regions?
- How did Craster's last son survive the trip to the Land of Always Winter? That's an awfully long way for a newborn baby to be carried, and it's hardly implied that the White Walkers have much in the way of nourishment for the child, nor is he wrapped in anything warmer than the blanket he was left in, yet he's shown to be alive and none the worse for wear when he reaches the altar. Given that the far north appears to be on a continental landmass, that's like travelling with a barely clothed baby to the centre of Antarctica. How did he not die of hypothermia along the way?
- Perhaps being huddled close to a White Walker in the cold for a long time is part of the 'converting' process.
- I think this is one of those cases where you can say A Wizard Actually Did It.
- Indeed. If the White Walkers have the ability to animate necrotic flesh, then it isn't too much of a jump to assume that they can sustain the baby for a bit, regardless of food/water/heat.
Couldn't Dany take a third option in regards to elderly slaves?
- In the last episode of the fourth season, Dany is petitioned by an elderly slave she freed to let him sell himself back to his master, because he was a respected teacher in slavery and now he's nothing. She relents and lets him sell himself back, but only for a year. What about employment, though? I realize that this being a slave society the man might not have thought of that option, but Dany is certainly familiar with the idea. The former slave could even agree to be paid with room and board, not money, if that suited him. The important thing is that he could leave if he wanted to, and it wouldn't let the masters take advantage of this to reenslave people, as Ser Barristan warns her.
- If he was a teacher to his master's children, my guess would be that he already had room and board at either his master's house or somewhere nearby. The impression I got from that scene was that despite being enslaved, Fennez was treated well and came to like his life well enough (he mentions he was respected and liked by the children, and presumably his master too). But the problem here is that if other former slaves followed his lead, then the exact same problem would arise regardless: despite being 'paid' with room and board, they would still effectively be slaves. Sure there are probably some kind men out there who treat their servants and slaves well and would let them leave, but there will be others who will not.
"Mother or sister?" "Same person."
- In Season 3 Margaery speaks to Cersei and tells her how pleased she is that they are to be sisters, and Cersei replies by telling Margaery if she ever calls her 'sister' again she'll have her killed. Fast-forward to "First Of His Name" and we have almost the same scene, with Margaery telling Cersei upon her marriage to Loras she "won't even know what to call you... mother, or sister." What gives? Or was Margaery trying to make a point?
- Making a point, her smirk most certainly screams that she remembered all too well Cersei's threat and is rubbing it back in her face.
"My Father died for you"
- Was it ever made public in the show that Ned supported Stannis? Jon tells Stannis that he knows who he is (on what ground?) and that his father died for supporting his claim. That Mance and his Wildlings have no idea who Stannis is just by looking at him makes sense, but how would Jon recognise him on such short notice and without context? Or did he just look at the stag sigil and knew what Baratheon soldiers look like (all three branches in the show seem to have the same kind of helmet), thus deducing his identity?
- It is known that Ned committed 'treason', so the Lannisters have to come up with some kind of explanation for what that means, and Stannis knows that Ned knew the truth about Joffrey and planned to support Stannis. It's not that odd that details would have made their way north.
- Not sure about the details, but in the show wasn't Ned excecuted for treason and wanting to seize the throne himself, while Stannis doesn't even mention Ned in his letter? As opposed to the books where Ned, Renly and Stannis basically were all declared traitors together.
- If I recall correctly, the TV series show the moment when Renly offers an alliance, and gets shot down by Ned on the grounds that Stannis is older, and therefore has the true claim to the throne. Stannis probably caught wind of this information somehow.
- That's true. But even if Stannis knew, there was no indication in the show that he let anyone know about the fact Ned declared for him. Although it's still possible that this simply happened off-screen by the Lannisters. (Still a bit weird since Renly and Ned were on friendly terms and talking to each other regulary.)
- Ned sends Stannis a letter about the situation. In the books it's intercepted, but in the show it makes it to Stannis.
"Not dressed for this weather"
- A minor one and this is probably just a case where they kept dialogue from the books while being a bit contradictory on-screen (like Cat's remark about the Whent bannerman in Season 1), but it's really weird to hear Mance tell Stannis that he/his men are underdressed for the climate. Now yes, the wildlings wear thick fur, but that's it. His army doesn't even wear hats or helmets and many are clean-shaven or even bald. Meanwhile, while not as cold, Stannis' men come from a barren, windy, cold and humid island in the middle of the Narrow Sea (at least it didn't really look warm on Dragonstone even in summer) and wear long coats, probably to protect against wind and rain, many are bearded, and even more importantly they wear helmets that protect their ears. What's up with that? Granted Stannis doesn't even wear a cloak or helmet, but his men seem to be better equipped against the elements than many Wildlings/Night's watchmen.
- On a similar note, why did the Greatjon talk down upon Stannis and Renly for being Southrons "reigning from some flowery seat". He might have a point with Renly, even though he only knew he was Lord of Storm's End at that point, but still it's a weird thing to say since the Stormlands are known for their unforgiving weather and the Baratheons in general are not known for being whimps exactly. Or are both Mance's and the Greatjon's remarks just an indication for some "tough northmen" image they like to cultivate? Note that the Wildlings like to talk down on Northmen the same way they do with Southrons.
- The North is known to be a very harsh land to live in, what with the snow present even during summer and all. As a consequence they tend to think of the south as all sunshine and flowers (quite literally). Furthermore, most of the northern Lords are quite barbaric themselves, and don't tend to mingle with the southron people in order to break free of this preconception. Greatjon, specially, is portrayed as particularly attuned to his First Men origins, even more than the Starks, Boltons or Manderlys.
- It's actually quite ironic that Wildling girls like Ygritte think the same about Northerners, presumably even men like the Greatjon. Like mentioned above, having maybe no respect for Renly makes sense, but Stannis (and Robert) are known for their fighting abilities which seems right up the Greatjon's alley so it seemed a bit odd to shoot Robb's suggestion down. Although he might just have seen an opportunity to make the North a kingdom on it's own again.
Second and Third Season Robb and Catelyn
Okay... So I understand that everybody (i.e. the Karstarks) is pissed off with Catelyn because she released Jaime. But they're pissed off with Robb because he doesn't punish her harder? What did they expect him to do, execute his own mother? Isn't kinslaying far worse than any crime Catelyn seems to have committed?
- This is a tricky case since the Starks tend to excecute people personally, but it would be plausible that treason is seen worse than kinslaying in those cases. Although it's likely that Karstark and co. didn't expect Robb to execute her but "only" throw her in a dungeon or cage like other prisoners, however petty this may seem, it still sends out a message.
- Yeah, no one was out for her blood, but sending her away on a diplomatic mission was pretty much a slap on the wrist as far as punishment goes, he was just getting her out of sight and hoping this would make everyone forget what she did. The least he could have done was restrict her liberties somehow, not put her in a position of trust.
Tywin and Roose
What exactly was Tywin planning to do with Roose in the long run? The main goal was to marry Tyrion to Sansa, get a Lannister baby and let him rule over the North. And why even keep Show!Roose around after the RW, since as opposed to the books it was his men who maimed Jaime not his own hired goons?
Seems more plausible that he had to get rid of him A)because he couldn't let him have the whole North and B) for retribution. Also why did Roose think, careful as he is, this would even fly? As soon as Tyrion married Sansa (which occured at around the same time as the RW) it should have raised some red flags.
- I believe the books explain Tywin's plan as something along the lines of "Let the Boltons and Stark loyalists wear each other out all winter until they are ready to bend the knee to our recuperated armies in the spring." What he didn't seem to know was that Roose likely suspects this and has plans to counteract it.
Geography and climate
This seems more like an informed attribute in the show, but how can the climate in certain regions differ so drastically visually? King's Landing seems to be mainly mediterranean and Cersei's dialogue with Margaery implies that it's even hotter in the Reach (maybe more humid). Dorne is clearly even hotter and drier than both KL and the Reach. But then we see the parley in the Stormlands and it looks northern(-ish) even though it's supposed to lie right between those other regions. Joffrey even mentions to Marge that it actually had to be much colder in the Stormlands than in KL. Now granted the Stormlands are supposed to be, well, stormy in the books too, but it seems the surrounding areas don't add up visually. Westeros is pretty much evenly shaped, so geographically there is not that much that could affect the climate except the raging storms in the SL and the mountains that probably are responsible for the Dornish desert. For comparison the North is an area just as big as all those regions together, yet still it looks and seems to have the same temperature from coast to coast despite it's forests and mountains.
- Simple question really: What exactly was the point of that entire story Tyrion gave about his cousin who crushed the beetles?
- In-universe: Jaime and Tyrion think the latter is about to die and they reflect on simpler times. It's probably their last private moment together so why not share a last laugh and Tyrion simply couldn't think of anything and it's in-character that Tyrion would comfort himself by assuring that life is meaningless anyway and it doesn't matter when he actually dies. On a technical level it was a filler scene though and/or a nod to people who's main complaint with the show is that too many (favorite) characters get killed off.
- There are a lot of interpretations. My zany theory is that it's about the capricious evil nature of the gods, who indiscriminately kill innocents every day. No amount of study and theology can discern the reason why, nor can any amount of physical force stop them, because mortals are too weak compared to them.
- For several theories see: http://movies.stackexchange.com/questions/19880/what-is-the-perception-of-tyrions-story-about-his-cousin-orson-and-the-beetles
- I prefer the fan theory that it was a playful jab at George RR Martin. Orson Lannister maniacally kills beetles, GRRM maniacally kills characters. "Smash the Starks! Kuh! Kuh! Kuh!"
How Can Tyrion Sleep With Shae?
- Ridicule me, but how can Shae be Tyrion's Whore if Tyrion is so short?
- Dwarfism does not prevent a person from having sexual relations. Peter Dinklage has a wife and daughter.
- Pretty much all sexual acts can be done between people of very different heights, with only a few exceptions (e.g. kissing during intercourse). He might have to stand in some situations where others kneel. With a little creativity and resourcefulness it's not a big deal.
- The very fact that dwarfism still exists in the real world should tell you that dwarfs have very little trouble having sex and making babies. If they couldn't then dwarfism would have died out long ago.
Tyrion could have solved a very simple problem with Shae
- Book Shae sells Tyrion out for money. Series Shae genuinely loved him and was broken-hearted by his dumping of her. However, both Tyrion and Shae are familiar with secrets, byzantine plots, and the necessity of convoluted plans. If Tyrion genuinely worries about Shae's safety, what is wrong with telling her in private that he wants her to go to Dorne or Braavos or wherever for a bit, live as if she has broken up with him, and when the time is right, he will come back to her? He can then have her publicly slap him, storm off in a huff, and set up a pleasant base of operations in Essos where Tyrion might need to go because his attorney got his head smashed into pulp by the prosecutor. It seems very unlikely that Series Shae would think this was a bad plan, and would therefore have no reason to seek revenge upon Tyrion. You would think that Tyrion, being a top-tier grandmaster of the Game of Thrones, would have realised the valuable asset he had in Series Shae and let her in on the plan instead of trying to send her away without telling her. Of course, trying to send her away results in his legal troubles.
- Tyrion wouldn't have much reason to think that she would listen given her refusal to believe that she's in danger, and would probably guess (probably correctly given Show Shae's actions) that she would assume he was just trying to get rid of her. And Shae doesn't seem to show that much skill with politics and espionage.
Was Tywin Sincere With Tyrion Before His Death?
- When Tyrion had his father at the end of a crossbow, Tywin seems like he's trying to talk his way out of it. Given his past treatment of Tyrion, he has no reason to believe that Tywin actually wasn't trying to kill him with his trial. However, look at it from Tywin's perspective. His puppet king Joffrey was a failure and assassinated, all his grandchildren are bastards, Jaime remains a kingsguard, Cersei is no longer cooperating with his schemes, his gold mines are empty, Roose Bolton, Balon Greyjoy, Stannis Baratheon and the Tyrells have free reign, his vassal admitted to murdering the previous queen and Targaryen children in front of a whole crowd, the Martells remain sworn enemies of his house and he himself will soon be too old to lay out any long term plans. He is in desperate need of someone who can continue the bloodline and has the wits to rule in his place, and Tyrion fits the bill perfectly. There may still be a lot of family honor at stake, and he may have been serious about using the trial to rid himself of Tyrion at some point, but could it be that in his final moments, Tywin was able to see Tyrion for the blessing on House Lannister that he is and hoped that by talking things through, he could salvage the dire situation for his family by convincing Tyrion to bury the past? Even though Tyrion knows he cannot take the chance his father is really just stalling and will try to have him executed all the same?
- It would certainly be ironic that Tywin only appreciates Tyrion's value the moment before he's killed by him.
What is the deal with the Lord of Light?
- Only seen up through season 3, but what is the deal with the Lord of Light? On one hand, it is the only "god" to seem to be real. It's followers can perform "miracles" and its prophecies are coming true. The White Walkers sound like the "ice and darkness" it opposes. On the other hand, its only really known worshiper is a very much "worship the Lord of Light or burn!", uses dark magic, and other questionable if not evil actions to accomplish the religion's goals. So, is the Lord of Light truly supposed to be the "one, true god?" Is it supposed to be "benevolent" more more along the lines of an opposing force to the whatever is the power behind the white walkers? What is the deal with it?
- People who worship the Old Gods also sometimes have supernatural abilities. This could mean the Old Gods are also real, or that people have supernatural abilities they believe come from various gods. More than one set of deities could exist, too. As I recall, the Lord of Light's followers have never denied the other gods actually exist-they just don't agree with them. Additionally, Thoros of Myr is also a worshiper, as are the others in the Brotherhood Without Banners. They don't seem to have such an Inquisition-like attitude as Melisandra does. One worshiper's behavior doesn't necessarily apply to all. We do not know if the Lord of Light, assuming he exists, would actually approve of these actions. On the other hand, cruel gods (whether the only true god or not) would be in keeping with the setting. As Tyrion himself laments at one point: "Why are all the gods such vicious cunts?" (Of course, this again assumes they approve of all their worshipers' actions.) So like most things, it's left ambiguous.
- Melisandre's comments about there being only two, the Lord of Light and the Great Other, plus burning icons of the Seven and calling them false gods suggest that the tenets of the faith don't believe there are any other pantheons. What isn't clear is whether it's right, is just refusing to admit that the other gods exist or if there aren't any gods at all. Alternately it's possible that in the show Melisandre is just from an extreme branch, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case.
- You can't necessarily take Mellisandre's actions as representative of all worshippers of the Lord of Light. Thoros of Myr and Beric Dondarrion both seem like stand-up guys. It's entirely likely, perhaps even more likely, that Mellisandre is just a crazed fanatic with some unrelated magical abilities that she has misinterpreted as gifts from her God.
- Nothing ever shown indicates that Melisandre is anything other than an important figure, albeit not the highest, in their faith. No mentions of splits, no accusations of heresy and no denial of authority by Thoros. As for Thoros and Beric, Beric hasn't been said to be a follower of the faith and Thoros hardly can be considered inherently representative of the entire religion and its leadership any more than the local parish priest can be for Catholicism. Less so actually, considering that he was by his own admission a lapsed priest. So even setting aside the books, everything from the show points to Melisandre being sent by the main branch of R'hllorism to Westeros and this being the formal policy of their leadership.
- The religion of the Lord of Light seems to have a penchant for demonising other religions, much like the Catholic Church did in medieval times. So, they usually don't straight up deny other gods exist, but assume they're aspects of the Great Other, and as such worshipping such gods is an act of evil. As for R'hllor appearing to be a real god, this is debatable. Sure, Melisandre and Thoros are able to work some magic, and truly believe this magic comes from their god, but there is no reason for us to believe it actually does. Their magic seems to be the same kind of "fire and blood" magic Targaryens dabbled with in the past, and the magic Mirri Mas Duur used on Khal Drogo (and later Dany used to hatch her dragons, completely by accident).
Meaning of Freedom
- Throughout Game of Thrones, the Greyjoys of the Iron Islands and the Wildlings constantly talk about "freedom!" They do not bend the knee to anyone nor obey anyone they do not like. They resent the other kingdoms for oppressing them and taking away their "freedom." But, their freedom sounds like the freedom to rape, pillage, steal, and destroy making them parasites. The oppression they complain about is when people complain about the raids and dare fight back. The Wildlings complain about being driven from their lands when the wall was put up...thousands of years ago. As far as I can tell, neither the Iron Islanders nor the Wildlings contribute anything to greater society. They do not produce anything. All they bring with them is chaos and destruction. So, is there any meaning to all their talk about "freedom" or is it a bunch of crap they refuse to recognize and try to use it to justify acting like thugs, murderers, and bandits?
- The Ironborn, yeah they're pretty much full of bs claiming that rape and pillaging is their birthright. The Wildlings however were forced to live in arctic conditions for thousands of years, JUST because their ancestors were on the wrong side of the Wall. And they're forced to stay there despite all the horrible conditions as well as the White Walkers.
- With the Wildlings I would have to ask WHY did their ancestors choose to stay on that side of the wall? It's not like the wall went up overnight. It would have taken years to build that thing. And, as to being forced to stay on that side...it sounds like they are forced to stay for the same reason no one likes the Ironborn...they have no respect for anyone but themselves and think they should have the right to do whatever they want. Barbarians that have accomplished nothing that would plunge a thriving civilization into a dark age if given a chance. Frankly, I can't blame Westeros for keeping them on the other side of the wall.
- The Ironborn are pretty clearly Vikings, and the Wildlings are the Scots or Picts of Roman times. The Roman Emperor Hadrian built a wall to keep them in the north (Hadrian's Wall) because of their frequent raiding. I would imagine that the Westeros kings or whoever came before were likely doing the same thing with the Wildlings. If so, I can't blame them for it, since as said above the Ironborn and Wildling "freedom" appears to mean the right to murder, rape and rob. The Ironborn's Old Way is basically simple piracy, and "paying the iron price" means always taking things by force rather than paying for them. Wildlings appear to have no organization more than tribes most times. So yeah, I don't think they're really supposed to be much more than raiding barbarians (the Ironborn being just slightly sophisticated about it).
- "But, their freedom sounds like the freedom to rape, pillage, steal, and destroy making them parasites." Well...yeah, obviously. The Ironborn and the Wildlings are obviously not devoted followers of John Locke and social contract theory. That being said, there is a bit more to each of them than just raping and pillaging. The Wildlings are basically anarchists. They view the concept of "nobility" and "birthright" with dubious skepticism. As far as they're concerned, no man (or woman for that matter) should have to debase himself by swearing fealty to some up-jumped ruler who only rules because he happened to be conceived by the previous up-jumped ruler. The Wildlings follow a king because they choose to follow, not because some law says they must. That's where the Wildlings are coming from when they talk about freedom. They do love a bit of rape and pillage, but they also expect the same in return from other Wildlings. The reason they resent the "southerners" is because, in their minds, the Wall is a giant monument to cowardice. If the southerners had any balls they would open up those gates and meet them in battle like real men. They only put up that giant wall of ice because they were too weak and too scared to handle a real fight. As for the Ironborn, as mentioned they are basically expies of Vikings. The Norse were known for many things, among which are a (relatively) egalitarian society and a cultural emphasis on bravery and glory in battle. Like the Norse the Ironborn value strength, and the fact that the mainlanders want to stop them from raping and pillaging is proof that they are all sissy girls only fit to be the targets of violence. The mainlanders deserve to be raped and pillaged for being such pussies, and forcing them to bend the knee to the Iron Throne is just enabling cowardice and weakness.
- They're both cultures that believe in Might Makes Right, and as such think it's stupid that the other peoples of Westeros bow down to weak rulers just because of such a flimsy concept as birthright. It's a little hypocritical in the case of the Ironborn (who do have a nobility of their own), but definitely still within their culture (see how Theon was basically disowned by his father just because he wasn't raised like a true Ironborn and thus was too soft to lead them). They just don't understand why strong people would bow down to wimp kings, and then fight them and try to force them to do the same.