Headscratchers: Fallout 3 Enclave
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- For a computer, Eden doesn't seem to be all that bright. Someone apparently installed Windows Final Solution to his personality. Even if you agree to help him insert the FEV virus, he makes no attempt to help you. I mean, he does have a bunch of VTOLs sitting around. What, all of a sudden he can't have you hop on one in safety to take you to the Jefferson Memorial? Then again that would make too much sense and this game seems to pride itself on trying to stay away from that road.
- Of course it could be that the Vertibirds are piloted by humans which aren't loyal to him like all the troops or he could think that you would want to find some way to get to the control room without landing on a surely guarded helipad if he can control them. It's not likely that he's programmed with how to teach people to pilot VTOLs if it is human controlled.
- He borrowed all the other Presidents personalities... so the incompetence could be a Take That!
- By that point in the game, Colonel Autumn and the vast majority of the Enclave (really, just about the whole thing except for the robots) have rebelled against Eden. The soldiers and scientists all report to Autumn, who is essentially Eden's human arm; nobody in the Enclave knows that he is a computer except for Autumn himself. It's quite conceivable that by that point, Eden has nobody left to trust but you, assuming Autumn has told the rest of the Enclave about the true nature of their leader. Judging by what's included in his computer/audio journals/etc., Autumn also knows some of Eden's plans, including the FEV thing, and has Eden's self-destruct code just in case he has to get rid of him. Since we never see Eden again once we've run into Autumn at the end of the game, it's quite possible that he's been destroyed by Autumn in the interim (though this doesn't explain why Enclave Radio is still going, even if it isn't a live broadcast; chalk this one up to a simple oversight, probably).
- As I read it, the Enclave Eyebots you occasionally encountered on the Wasteland were the source of the radio signal that was receivable everywhere. Another NPC commented that they thought the Enclave Radio was nothing but a pre-war loop playing on forever. Unlike Galaxy News Radio, I do not think the Enclave's broadcast changed during the course of the game at all, supporting this idea. Granted, I have seen some Eyebots get destroyed and never lost the Enclave's signal. So either the Eyebots really are that pervasive, or it is an oversight.
- According to the Fallout wiki the Enclave radio goes down if you convince Eden to destroy Raven Rock and the Eyebots just move along broadcasting static; indicating that Raven Rock is the source of the transmission and the Eyebots simply repeated it for those who lacked radios and possibly to boost it. Also the Enclave signal did change, exactly once after the purifier incident: "The Enclave is back! Not just on your radio but on the streets, in your homes and lives Etc. Etc." Other than that it kept broadcasting the same things.
- I can confirm that signal disappears if Raven Rock is destroyed. I can also confirm the "The Enclave is back!" broadcast being added to the rotation after the purifier incident. It even includes a short interview with Colonel Autumn. There is one other time it changes. I don't know when it gets added, but there is a second broadcast added with Eden talking about how the Enclave is going to bring clean water to the Wasteland with "their" Project Purity.
- You forgot to mention that you're able to convince him to kill himself with all of two sentences of dialogue. Worst. Supercomputer.Ever.
- The reasoning in both ways in which you convince Eden to shut himself down is pretty sound, it just isn't carried out very well because the player is given a whopping two lines to deliver them. The first way, in which you convince him that he doesn't have the ability to keep even his own army from falling apart let alone his master plan to restore U.S. government to power rests on him — as a logical machine — not wanting to invest effort and resources into a losing cause. The second, in which you convince him that his justification for his rule (his superb ability for rational thinking) is irrational — if a computer programmed to be infallible develops attributes it was not designed to have (such as true intelligence) it no longer follows its original programming and thus its infallibility is not unquestionable. And if said computer uses circular logic to prove you wrong, you can use its argument as proof that it is indeed conducting an illogical error. Upon finding out, Eden panics and in desperation reformats his system to erase his mistakes, which allows the player to input self-destruction commands into him in his blank state.
- IIRC, the Fallout Bible states that the ZAX line of supercomputers were not designed to be fully sentient. Eden has more or less evolved to sentience by being on-line for over 200 years. So, as supercomputers go, he's not all that bright in Fallout terms.
- Or in other words, Eden is operating way beyond his intended operating capacity. That could account for his oversights and instability.
- It's pretty safe to say that as soon as Autumn found out about how Eden not only let you out of the inescapable prison booth, but handed you back all your weapons and gear, the partnership between them was terminated. I'm surprised I didn't find a broken computer monitor personally.
Convincing President Eden
- It really bugs me how easy it is to convince President Eden to suicide himself and take the Enclave along with him. All it takes is a fairly high Intelligence score, or a single speech check of average difficulty. You don't even really present any sort of particularly convincing argument to him, either. You just basically tell him that he sucks and should die, and he just agrees with you. You'd think a 200-year old Evil Genius supercomputer would take a little more convincing persuasion to influence, especially given the incredibly self-assured, megalomaniacal nature of his constant radio broadcasts.
- Hell, the speech check against Colonel Autumn is much harder than the one against Eden; you have to pass two consecutive speech checks to get him to stand down, and they're both of pretty high difficulty too.
- I mean, in Fallout 1 you had to have a really high speech skill AND complete a sidequest to be able to talk the Master to death. Even in Fallout 2, you needed a really high speech score to convince the Enclave soldiers to help you defeat Horrigan. I blitzed through the main quest and got to Eden with a level 7 character with only average speech skills, and still managed to easily get him to off himself. Convincing Eden to kill himself isn't even necessary or particularly beneficial (he still has his robots clear the exit for you if you simply agree to help him deliver the FEV), so there was absolutely no reason why Bethesda had to make it so easy to kill him. Destroying Eden and the Enclave should have been a "bonus" triumph, making it so easy really robs you of the sense of accomplishment.
- He's supposed to be an amalgamation of every past US president, so he shouldn't be all that smart, some of them naturally watered him down.
- Well, he's supposed to have their personalities together. But really it's like the programmers just blended the worst parts of Nixon, Hoover, and Buchanan. Where do we see Washington, Lincoln or Roosevelt?
- Maybe they were deemed "un-American" by the Enclave's idiosyncratic interpretation of the ideals of the United States? We're talking about people who model their officers' uniforms after the Nazis...
- We see Roosevelt in the Radio station broadcasts at least, they are based on his "Fireside Chats" according to the Fallout Wiki. He probably was designed so that the presidents that appeal to the Enclave make policy while the ones that appeal to the public make speeches.
- You have to remember that the Fallout universe diverged from ours around the 1950's, where the 50's continued for another 150 years. So Washington, Lincoln, and Roosevelt are watered down by 150 years of Joe McCarthys.
- I was very disappointed that Eden did not respond to the rather pitiful attempts to talk him to death with "You fool! I was constructed with paradox absorbing crumple zones!"
- While Eden has the personality of every president, he probably doesn't have the intelligence. And sure, he is a 200-year old evil genius, but you forget that he's a MECHANICAL 200-year old evil genius. Anyone with a computer will know that they wear out after a few years. Expecting a somewhat humanoid AI to be perfectly sane and intelligent after 200-years, even with maintenance (don't forget that the enclave can't exactly go down to PC world to get new parts) then you are thinking very unrealistically.
- I'm pretty sure thinking unrealistically in the fallout universe became impossible after I convinced a robot wearing a powdered wig that I was Thomas Jefferson while dressed up as Abe Lincoln in order to steal the declaration of independence from it.
- There again, you have an isolated mechanical mind long overdue for proper maintenance.
- I just assumed Eden had been on the fritz for a while and his dragons had been picking up the slack. It explains why Eden was able to give an order to assure your character's safety while s/he went to his office, and then five seconds later Colonel Autumn gets on the intercom and says "Disregard that, please" and nobody bats an eye at disobeying a presidential order.
- I already gave his thoughts on the Talking Monster To Death in prior entry but let me say it again: the reasoning used in both dialog paths is fitting and fairly smart, it is just written too glibly and requires too little understanding from the player. Convincing Eden that his work is futile because he cannot get it done without the help of subordinates like Autumn whom Eden can't control or convincing him that his programming/sanity is flawed are credible reasons for a sentient computer to give up what it's doing. As for how easy it is, Eden's character is pretty much written on the theme of how impossible it is to control human behavior.
- Part of the problem is that only some of the dialog paths make any sense, the other paths involve speech options that Eden himself has already disproved in his addresses on the radio.
John Henry Eden: The question has been raised, I know, as to just how I came to be elected to this most illustrious office. Or whether or not I had been elected at all. To that I must answer; of course. Of course I was elected, sweet America, of course. Isnít the right to vote the very foundation of a democracy? Unfortunately, in the interest of national security, I am not at liberty to discuss the details of the election, you understand. But rest assured, I am your president because the appropriate people of this great nation decided I should be. I am your duly elected representative.
- But then this kind of collapses in a single sentence:
Lone Wanderer: You can't be president! You weren't elected!John Henry Eden: You're right. *Begins the dialog path to self-destruction*
- Um, look again. Telling him he wasn't elected does absolutely nothing towards making him blow up. He basically says that the USA is in a state of emergency and under martial law, therefore democracy is suspended. He's just plain lying when he says he's a "duly elected representative".
- Look again. You are given three different speech options at that point, and they all end with the same exact Logic Bomb about infallibility. He doesn't exactly have "paradox-absorbing crumple zones." The fact that he is president because he says so is part of the whole logic bomb and why his argument falls apart so quickly. Of course, this pales to the other speech options that make even less sense, where the questions are very quickly skipped over:
Lone Wanderer: [Speech] This has to end, Eden. You need to destroy yourself and your base.John Henry Eden: [Success]And why would I do that, when I am clearly the best hope for the people of the Wasteland?Lone Wanderer: You can't just decide to take over, and force everyone to follow you.John Henry Eden: What alternative would you suggest? Without the Enclave, what would the world do?Lone Wanderer: If you don't stop it now, where will it end? It's up to you to do what's right.John Henry Eden: Yes, I suppose it is. Very well, you shall have your wish. Once you have left, I will put an end to the Enclave.
- Actually, this does make sense. Eden became what it is over time by modeling himself after the US presidents, the ideals of democracy, etc. It essentially self brainwashed itself to the point that the BS is now literally indistinguishable from reality in its mechanical mind, so A.I. Is a Crapshoot works in the Lone Wanderer's favor here, because the logic in telling it to destroy itself because it's a despot is essentially reminding it what it believes itself to be: a democratically elected US president who also happens to be a logical, semi-sentient computer. The logic of its mechanical side merges with how seriously it's come to believe it's a president of the U.S., and hence it decides to fall on his sword because it is both a betrayal of everything it believes itself to personify (and Autumn never saw fit to disabuse it of its illusions, since they were essential to getting his hands on a HQ for the Enclave forces) and a logical fallacy to be a despot, so since it can't perform its role without being a hypocrite or running into an unassailable Logic Bomb, self destruction would be the only logical choice. In effect, you caused it to have a (partial) Heel-Face Turn on the grounds of exposing the illogic of its hypocrisy. Note, Eden still wants the modified FEV to be distrubuted, but that just goes along with it's 1's and 0's programming about what's logical (the purification of the Capital Wasteland), not what's moral (since it's not human, this wouldn't factor into the equation).
- The problem here is that Eden cannot be logical if it either knowingly lies or is deluded enough to believe it is the President. Canon sources point out that Eden's intended purpose was simply to monitor communications, not to continue the Enclave's work by either working towards genocide or by rallying the Enclave as its President. The next question becomes: If Eden can be convinced it's not actually the president, why can he not be made to understand that he might be wrong about its other illogical decisions? Eden can only be made aware of -one- issue with its so-called Logic, but not others, such as "Self-destruction" being the only "logical" choice, as discussed below. And Eden certainly is never given an option to discuss its plan to annihilate the wasteland, which is also ingrained into the Enclave mindset as much as Eden being president. But for some reason, the destruction of the Wasteland is hard-wired into Eden's systems, as you cannot leave Raven Rock without the FEV, even if you use Autumn's override code.
Convincing Eden (cont'd)
- On a related note, it bugs me that once you've convinced Eden he's wrong the only option he sees is to blow up Raven Rock. No option to somehow, you know, use the Enclave's highly advanced technology and organisation for the good of the Wasteland or anything. Eden seems to be well-meaning, even if he is rather amoral, so once you've convinced him he's wrong then it would surely be a better idea to convince him to do a Heel-Face Turn- the Enclave is shown to be far more competent than the Brotherhood of Steel or anyone else in the game, and they have far better technology than anyone so with their resources you'd have a much better chance of actually rebuilding the Wasteland. The Enclave seem to be the only major group who are both capable and interested in doing more than squatting in the ruins of the pre-war world so it's annoying that they have to die unless you want to take a MIRV to the Moral Event Horizon.
- I haven't played 3, but going by Fallout 2 the vast majority of enclave are purity obsessed Nazi stand-ins. Convincing the computer of its error won't deprogram the rest of them.
- Yes, but in Fallout 3 we obviously see that Eden is the only villain in the spirit of 'true Enclave' while the rest of Enclave doesn't give a shit about him and follow Autumn who's a whole lot less radical and generally has a lot more in common with the Vault Dweller and the Brotherhood. Maybe it's just my Alternate Character Interpretation, but F3's Enclave sans Eden were just Well Intentioned Extremists whom I found hard not to side with, given the game's crapsack world.
- No, Autumn held the values of the Enclave, too. He just didn't want to kill everything in the world outside the Enclave, when instead he could just kill the mutants and raiders, and keep the normal people as citizens or slaves or something. Can't rebuild America if there's no people.
- I was really hoping for an 'Autumn Wins' ending in which he takes over the purifier and uses his newfound power set up a new government that eradicates the Super Mutants and creates a stable if a bit radical society as opposed to BoS and the Wastelanders who have been sitting on their lazy asses for over 200 years.
- Did you miss the part where Autumn was going to commit genocide on everyone who pretty much wasn't born in a Vault? Including ghouls? And as Uncle Leo and Fawkes demonstrate, not every single Super Mutant is chaotic evil, either.
- Also, remember that even though Autumn didn't want to massacre all Wastelanders, he did want to destroy all other organizations such as the Brotherhood of Steel, so that the Enclave could rule the Wasteland with an iron fist. Just because Autumn wasn't completely genocidal doesn't mean that his plans are the best for the Wasteland.
- Going back to Eden, it still doesn't answer the question of why you can't give him a new purpose to help the Brotherhood of Steel once you outlogic him? Yes Autumn and the Enclave soldiers aren't going to be convinces so easily, but you have to deal with them anyway no matter what.
- Because he is completely ineffectual - as a sentient program tied to his box in Raven Rock he needs people to carry out his plans but due to his immobility he is unable to keep a short leash on them which is why Col. Autumn was able to betray him so easily. In short, if Eden can't do it in Raven Rock with couple of robots and security cameras, he is utterly useless in anything short robbing Enclave of their base.
- I assume the question was why couldn't the Lone Wanderer convince Eden to help the Brotherhood instead of the Enclave. And to that question, I say it simply Bethesda keeping the Enclave Always Chaotic Evil. It's simply not in keeping with the rest of the setting for a bad guy to become a good guy. To wit, even if you don't blow up Raven Rock and leave on amicable terms, in Broken Steel, Liberty Prime destroys Raven Rock anyway.
Women in the Enclave
- Where are all the female Enclave officers? Considering how limited population they are working with, they can't afford to be sexist; leaving 50% of their population out of their military effort would be ludicrous. Even if every woman in Enclave is expected to give birth to several new citizens, that can't be all that is required of them, and considering that the great majority of the Enclave's actions are military operations of some sort, it just isn't possible that women could be left out without serious problems in availability of personnel; there can't be more than a few hundred Enclave in the entire Capital Wasteland.
- I "met" some female Enclave troopers and officers. The former look the same, thanks to the armor, and being reduced to green goo by a plasma rifle doesn't help.
- I've only met a single one, and that was a scientist. I've stripped practically all the soldiers I've met to repair my aromour, and they've always been fairly intact since I prefer small arms. Not one female has appeared among them.
- From what I've seen, the Enclave Officers are 50/50 Male/Female. The soldiers all seem to be male, though.
- Confirmed by me, whose first officer kill was female. An averted case of One Size Fits All for its female character.
- Same here. I may have encountered female Enclave Troops, but since I stopped stripping their armor early on I haven't seen any that I know of. I've met five Enclave Officers, though, and four were female.
- Enclave Soldiers may all be male, but almost all, if not all Enclave Scientists are female. Now, you are an organization promoting pure-bred unmutated humanity, where do you want your baby factories (If you'll excuse my humorous terminology) wandering around the irradiated wastes being shot at by wide varety of enemies, where even in powered armor a Ripper or shotgun blast that punches through in the wrong spot will ruin that particular ability, or safely holed up in your underground base where they spend most of their time working in heavily protected (against environmental hazards, anyway) suits? One assumes Enclave Officers are partially female because they need authority figures. All the officers I've seen are near Deathclaw cages, the kind of thing that probably needs supervision. Why they give officers some cloth to protect them from the hazards of the wastes is not something I'm going to debate with them (Especially since I always blow Raven Rock to hell, and stand outside until the explosions stop.). And hell, for all we know, female officers can only get promoted to that position after popping one out for humanity. (Which brings up the possibility that you kill babies when you blow up Raven Rock. Let's hope that they all get safely evacuated before the poop hits the fan)
- Enclave aren't sexist I'm sure they model themselves out of pre war America. In fallout 2 it shows that people even get jobs and such. The ratio's seem to favor more men as troops and 50/50 in every other enclave profession.
- OK, I'll make a feeble stab at justifying this: They can only produce the Advanced Power Armor Mark II using a couple of fabrication facilities that were shuttled all the way from Navarro 30 years earlier - and due to an oversight, both of the facilities they got crank out power armor in men's sizes. There. Stupid, yet logical.
Enclave's oddly specific timing
- How come that the Enclave choose that moment (while you're repairing the purifier, after cleaning the complex, after finding your father, after having gone through hell and back in the wastelands) to go public? Pure coincidence (not impossible, just lame)? They somehow spy on you (would make sense, but there is never any reference to the existence of secret service in the Enclave)? They were keeping an eye on the purifier complex all along (Hey, that dude is about to repair and activate the damn thing, move in men!)? Even more ridiculous is the fact that the Enclave is for all purpose absent from the DC area (except for the eyebot and broadcasts) until that one goddamned moment. The second you see a vertibird near the purifier, Enclave outposts, and troops, and robots, and vertibirds magically appear all over the place.
- I recall meeting one of Dr. Li's assistants in Raven Rock during the escape, claiming that she had defected to the Enclave. I didn't really listen to her side before jamming a frag mine into her back pocket (I hate defectors). It's possible she switched sides earlier on and was informing the Enclave that James was getting close?
- Hate to burst your bubble, but she wasn't a mole, she was captured while they you were escaping from the Jefferson Memorial.
- Enclave Eyebots, maybe? You do encounter them all around the wasteland, although they're so widely spaced that it's hard to believe that they were able to keep effective tabs on you or anybody else. That seems the only logical explanation, though.
- A better possibility is that they already knew about Project Purity, so were explicitly keeping tabs on that location, which is why they attack immediately after people start working there again. (Then the real problem becomes, wouldn't it be easier simply to wait until the system is working and then swoop in?)
- They likely wanted to make sure the project was started up correctly and to their specifications.
- I figured it was a call back to Fallout 2. In Fallout 2, when repairing a computer in Gecko's power plant, you can accidentally 'prank call' the Enclave. The thing that happens right before the Enclave show up at the Purifier? That's right, you turn on the Mainframe, which possibly signals to the Enclave that the facility was active (or at least someone turned on an old pre-war computer).
- The prank call is just a humorous bit of dialogue. It is nothing to do with triggering the Enclave showing up. You should have encountered them at least once before even reaching Gecko. Plot wise, the Enclave doesn't show up because the player does anything. The Enclave is looking for the exact same thing the player is looking for, so eventually their paths cross as a result of that.
- It does not help that one of the options in that conversation itself is the ability to talk the Officer into sending a Vertibird assault team. They simply don't show up because this is one of the unfinished events in the game that is cleaned up in the Restoration mod.
- On a side note, why do the Enclave even bother to expose their troops to the wastelands' hardness when they could keep them safe in Raven Rock until the final battle? Do they have so many troops and so much gear that they can afford to waste them in the wastes?
- Yes, yes they do. They do have an unlimited supply of either oil (which vertibirds are established to use in Fallout 2 and it is a fairly major plot point) or technology to retrofit every single vertibird with a nuclear reactor so light and powerful that it can provide unlimited energy.
- They needed the G.E.C.K. to make the Purifier work, so they were out looking for it (and you).
- They've been around beforehand. I remember once encountering an Enclave soldier shortly after leaving the Vault for the first time, even killed him after expending most of my ammo. 'Course it could be just a bug.
- Because that is when it was dramatically correct for them to appear.
- The Enclave were taking control of the Wasteland. In order to do that, you need to get boots on the ground, enforcing control, establishing patrols and presence. You can't do that with everyone holed up in Raven Rock.
- Plot convenience. The player is far enough in the plot that the Enclave are supposed to be the main antagonists, so that is when they show up.
- Actually this troper encountered an Enclave trooper on the way back from the Super-Duper mart to Megaton, and was promptly chased back to Megaton being shot at and getting killed a few times. This was before even deactivating the Megaton bomb.
- Yes: individual scouts are among the random encounters at that point. But since they don't identify themselves, only the fact that their life bar reads 'Enclave Soldier' makes them anything more than a very well-equipped Wasteland loony.
Enclave not using its orbital nukes
- When you get to the computer in the Mobile Base in Broken Steel, they have preset targets that they could choose and all the missiles would head there without any chance to change them. How come when you show up in the base none of the scientists were smart enough to run up to the control panel and dedicate all missiles to attacking the Citadel?
- I think it is much more strange that they are targeting their own freaking Mobile Base! Why would anyone willingly point their super powerful weapon towards themselves?
- The launch terminal - in its final 'are you sure you want to do this stupid thing' menu - explicitly stated that targeting the Mobile Base was a self-destruct mechanism to keep the base from falling into enemy hands. Ironic really, considering how the whole affair ends.
- Plus you need a reference point that other targets can be a 'distance and heading' from. No GPS system anymore, after all. And a reference point outside of their HEAVILY fortified and manned battle machine could be taken down as easily as the rest of their outposts.
- No GPS, but they have orbital missile launching satellites? A global positioning system uses satellites to pinpoint positions, and there's several satellite relay towers still active and working, which the Kill Sat uses as well.
- Why hasn't the Enclave bombed the Citadel you ask? How about because Citadel is the frikking Pentagon? As in one of the most important structures of US military? Something like that Enclave might want intact if they were to rebuild America.
- Here's what really bugs me about this. Who better than the Enclave to know what is hidden under the Pentagon? There's no real excuse for the Enclave not knowing about or wanting Liberty Prime. They know the Brotherhood is there at the Pentagon, but no one in the Enclave thinks that they might mobilize a pre-War weapon like that? If they had wanted to take the Pentagon, they probably could have sooner, rather than putting their chips in on the fricking water purifier and taking on the most direct threat in the Capital Wasteland. To the Enclave, the Brotherhood are deserters and traitors, they wouldn't have the slightest bit of hesitation to kill them. So, why don't the Enclave attack the Pentagon or destroy it to prevent the Enclave's enemies from getting their hands on what is "US Government Property"?
- Because doing so would result in a catastrophic defeat? Even though the Brotherhood was using inferior armor and weapons, they were still heavily entrenched in and fortifying the Citadel, which would give them a distinct advantage if the Enclave attacked. They have, if memory serves, sentry guns and rocket launchers to shoot down Vertibirds and lookouts on the walls at all times. And even then, the Brotherhood scribes noted that a few tweaks to their laser rifles and they'd be able to punch through the Enclave's Mark II Advanced Power Armor.
- It was made very clear the Enclave wanted the Pentagon back in their hands according to the broadcasts. Whether they wanted something there or just wanted it for symbolic purposes is unclear. They might have indeed wanted Liberty Prime. They had no reason to believe the Brotherhood could get him up and running when the guys who built him never could. Especially since in their mind the Brotherhood is technologically inferior to them (the Brotherhood mostly relies on salvaged pre-war tech, while the Enclave produces their own new model stuff). And by the time Liberty was suddenly launched at the Purifier it was too late to order a strike on him then. But the next time he was deployed they were ready for him. As to why they never used the orbital strike before Liberty Prime started deploying, well they probably felt it was an unnecessary use of their resources when again, Enclave's soldiers had brand new superior equipment.
- Listen to the broadcasts again, they never say that they wanted the Pentagon back, they don't even imply it, and certainly have done nothing in the last 40 years to do so. The only broadcast that even mentions it talks about how annoyed Eden is with making the Brotherhood of Steel making the Pentagon their "personal clubhouse." And please remember, the Enclave had encountered the Brotherhood of Steel in Fallout 2, remember? They know fully well that the Brotherhood is capable of restoring quite a bit of technology - including highly advanced yet "antiquated" technology. Seeing as Liberty Prime is antiquated because he's pre-War, he counts. There's no adequate explanation, especially -after- losing the Purifier. The Enclave had two full weeks between losing the Purifier and the start of Broken Steel, further exemplified in the situation where if the Lone Wanderer does not destroy Raven Rock, Liberty Prime destroys Raven Rock, and is otherwise stomping the Enclave into the ground. In the Broadcasts, they know exactly where the Brotherhood is, and set up forcefields and fortifications a hundred yards from the Citadel's front door to protect the Purifier. What explanation is there for not countering such an obvious threat? Which is more likely? That the Enclave is suddenly with defective memory to not know where to attack the nerve center of their biggest threat, as well as continue to allow that threat to continue to occupy "the most important military installation in the nation"? Or is it more likely the Enclave have simply been Flanderized to the point of being there strictly for plot convenience?
- A possible explanation for why the Enclave isn't using their orbital nukes would be that the nukes are just getting in orbit. If you notice the quest, you see that there are 5 different targets (Megaton, Rivet City and Project Purity are the other three). If you try to go for one of the other three targets, you get a message that you can't target them because the orbit isn't right. Let's make the assumption that unless the orbital nuke is in the right place, it can't target anything, and that everyone were busy defending the base. This means that nobody were there to target the Citadel, or possibly, that the Citadel coordinates were already punched in, but the LW arrives at the right time to change it - and boom goes the Enclave base.
- The orbital missile station's supply of missiles is limited: it can't be resupplied due to the modern era's lack of spaceflight. The resources to field such an operation would probably have been seen as 'wasteful' right up until Liberty Prime practically wiped the Enclave from the region. Those few nukes are the Enclave's last line of defense, not something to be used when a new threat appears. Liberty Prime IMO should not have been as tough as he is with literally MILLIONS upon millions of HP, fielding a rapid fire weapon that does like 9K-5K damage per hit. When they mentioned power issues I can see why. Robot Behemoths from the Midwest while tough only had like 5K heath and did 600 damage a hit albeit there were hundreds of em.
Destruction of Enclave Mobile Base
- The Brotherhood of Steel, an organization dedicated to the preservation of technology, is happy with you for -blowing up- the Mobile Crawler, rather than, say, capturing it for the BOS. Even with the Capital Wasteland BOS being more interested in protecting the innocent, that massive base would surely be useful, and it wouldn't have been too hard to occupy it either, since the Lone Wanderer cleared the whole thing out on his own. Just another missed opportunity.
- Elder Lyons says flat-out that they "barely have the manpower to keep the Citadel fortified." The Bo S simply cannot crew a fortress of that size, period. That leaves them with exactly two options: destroy it or clear it out and leave. And Option #2 is stupid with a capital S.
- ...Or they could let the Lone Wanderer keep it and make sure no Raiders or Super Mutants try looting the thing. Heck, it could be a convenient headquarters where all the companions can go to (like when you take over the Lucky 38 in New Vegas) when they're not following you around. Really, I think it's the least they could do, considering all the crap you're put through to get Project Purity working again and make sure the Enclave is kicked out of the Capital Wasteland for good.
- I think this is one of those cases of their "resources being stretched thin," if you will. Granted, the Mobile Crawler is good tech, but they prolly don't have the manpower to operate the damn thing and protect it, as well as protect the Citadel. Further, a full-out attack by BoS would probably give the Enclave incentive to orbital strike the Citadel, which, even if the squad or division manages to the secure the Crawler, would result in a very Pyrrhic victory, leaving them vulnerable to ultimate annihilation.
- And this is sci-fi. What giant, unstoppable death machine doesn't have a convenient self destruct they can set off once the Brotherhood is all inside?
- They destroyed the crawler so the Enclave can't use the killsat on Brotherhood locations. No one but you knows that the Sat only has one good throw of the die left in it. The Brotherhood's best weapon was just demolished by the darn thing so they send you to take it out and in fact if you really want to you can leave the Crawler unharmed and simply get up and leave.
- I agree that it's unusual that one of the Scribes didn't at least beg you to please, please download the Crawler's schematics for future duplication. Would have made a reasonable 'optional goal' to add to the last mission.
- If you talk to Scribe Rothchild after blowing up the Enclave Mobile Platform, he will mention that the Brotherhood's been collecting equipment and hardware from the ruins of the crawler and the surrounding base, so it's likely that they'll be able to collect all the tech they need.
- Throughout the course of the game, several wastelanders suggest that the Enclave broadcasts are nothing more than old pre-war broadcasts on a loop. I never understood why that was presented as being a sane thing to say. Whimsical claims of growing up in rural Kentucky aside, the fact that Eden makes specific reference to Super Mutants, ghouls, and BOTH sects of the Brotherhood of Steel rather than, say, encouraging survivors not to get in the National Guard's way or make sure to punch any Chinese spies they see makes it difficult to suspend disbelief.
- Pretty much the only way it can make sense is that they don't own radios and only have heard bits of the broadcast.
- Or the signal is not being received too clearly. Those transistors, while they have lasted pretty long, have gotten a bit old.
- The wrecked bus' radio in the intro movie still uses a vacuum tube. I found that hugely impressive for 200 years after the apocalypse
- Or it just makes them feel a little uncomfortable, hence they don't listen to it. That's why I don't.
- I didn't even know that it mentioned super mutants. I took one listen and decided. "You know, I prefer Three Dog"
- Speaking of Enclave Radio, why does it play "Dixie"? Isn't that kind of un-American?
- Even though Dixie is associated with the Confederacy, it is also now a cultural symbol for the heritage of the South (D.C., Maryland, Virginia are all considered part of the 'south' or Dixieland, afterall) and meaning, part of American culture. It can controversial, but for many, it's as American as "Yankee Doodle".
- The Enclave also aren't that "American" themselves seeing as they are Nazi's
- But they see themselves as American, which is what matters in this case. Of course, as said above, Dixie is an American tune. Also... "Nazis"? Literally, or figuratively? Technically there's no United States left, unless you ask the Enclave, so no-one's got a US birth certificate or anything, but...
- Presumably figuratively, but here's the thing: the Enclave is pretty darn American as defined by the America that was just before the bombs fell - the Enclave is an exaggeration of what already was a fairly fascistoid, xenophobic organisation, namely the US government (democratic governments generally don't have military officials decide to mass-arrest protestors so they can 'serve their country' by being experimented on).
- It makes perfect sense for them to be playing Dixie. Think about it. It's associated with the Confederacy. They're basically Nazis. Why wouldn't they use it?
Sympathy for the Enclave
- How are the Enclave "much more sympathetic" in 3? They're the exact same racist, genocidal, pseudo Nazis they were in 2!
- I guess maybe its because Eden gives you a chance rather than ordering your immediate death.
- That and because there is Autumn, who actually vetoed Eden's attempt to wipe out all life in the Wasteland, albeit passively to the point of open revolt. Are they still assholes? Absolutely. But they aren't comically evil ones, and with enough head-twisting it isn't that hard to recognize that they ultimately are Knights Templars.
- Except that Autumn disapproving of all out genocide is the only thing separating him from Eden. He is still just as much of a racist fascist as the rest of the Enclave. And he doesn't want to simply activate the purifier, he wants to control it, as he who controls the water supply controls the Wasteland, and nothing Autumn says or does indicate he would be a good ruler, whereas everything he does indicates he would be an oppressive, iron fisted, despotic tyrant.
- Two things makes them more sympathetic than in Fallout 2: they, or at least the human parts, led by Autumn are less genocidal, and the Brotherhood of Steel is more bigoted than the New California Republic. That doesn't make them good, or even anywhere close to Knights Templar.
- If you're talking about the Brotherhood branch we see in 3, they're way less bigoted than just about every other faction, including the Outcasts and definitely counting the Enclave. Also, the human portion of the Enclave is equally genocidal: Note that field teams have orders to round up Wastelanders for genescanning and to "take care" of the irradiated, which is pretty much everyone not in a Vault. Presumably the 'unfit' would be used in experiments, as can be seen with dissected Wastelanders and in the Enclave labs; the orders (found in field-team terminals) add that they should 'incinerate' the extras, and Soldiers in those groups carry Flamers. They also seem to consider all ghouls as ferals and shoot accordingly.
- At least some people are probably being influenced by New Vegas, where the Enclave Remnants are portrayed in an almost wholly sympathetic light; one of them admits that the leadership went too far, but adds that most of the Enclave were good people. (Which may well be true, but doesn't make what the Enclave as a whole did any less heinous.) Plus it has Arcade, whose former Enclave citizenship seems to have elicited plenty of sympathy for a group that essentially no longer exists in F:NV (and thus looks much better by comparison).
- They still exist, it's just that the majority of them packed up and moved to Chicago after the Oil Rig fell. Arcade's dad's unit specifically stayed behind to watch over Navarro.
- The sympathy may also come from the world these men are forced to deal with. We are applying 21st century morality to their situation... but we aren't living in the ruins of a bombed out wasteland rife with raiders, mutants, monsters, and worse. They are. Given how hellishly lethal and ridiculously inhospitable the Capitol Wasteland is, it may be easy to forgive the Enclave's harsh policies as an inconvenient necessity needed to properly administer the territory.
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