Headscratchers: Dragon Ball Anime Movies
- I know the movies aren't meant to fit within the canon of the anime or the manga but the timeline for some of them still bugs me. According to information presented within the movie Super Android 13, the first Broly movie, and the second Cooler movie all take place during the ten day wait for the Cell Games. How is this possible? While it is theoretically possible for one to fit it would still be strange that the characters don't comment on the upcoming fight with Cell. They also heal remarkably fast and don't seem like they fought multiple strong enemies when they go to fight Cell. It just stretches credibility that all of them occurred so close together.
- Senzu beans. Lots and lots of senzu beans. Also, instant transmission to Namek+Dende healing.
- I think the answer that they didn't fit within the cannon is probably your best bet. Dragonball Multiverse offers something of an alternative though. Perhaps the movies take place in different but similar universes. It certainly make sense that Android 13 exists perhaps in Cell's (time travel is complicated) timeline. The one where the heroes defeated the androids and Trunks went to the future and beat his androids as well. They certainly aren't training for the Cell Games during the lead up to Broly.
- Why in Broly's first movie does Trunks describe him as a toothpick? I mean I know when he's under his father's control his power level seems relatively low but even in his normal form he's still taller and more muscular than everyone else.
- It's all about the power level, stature and muscle mass mean very little at that point.
- My best guess is that the power inhibitor that Broly wears suppresses his power enough that whatever technique Trunks and the others use to sense power levels registered him as extremely weak. Remember being able to mask your power level is actually nearly unique to Earth in DBZ with Captain Ginyu and Frieza being to my knowledge the only non-earth trained people who adjust their power levels. Everybody else walks around at 100% all the time. Trunks simply came to the same conclusion everybody would have in that situation which was what you see is what you get.
- At the end of Broly - The Legendary Super Saiyan after Goku gets his ki-boost from Vegeta, he lunges at Broly yelling "Now the REAL fight begins!" He promptly punches Broly once about one second after declaring that and defeats him. How was one punch a real fight but the very very long battle preceding it not a real fight?
- I know right? I waited 2 hours into the movie for the "real fight" and it was over in seconds.
- Two hours? The entire movie lasted 1 hour and 10 minutes; no wonder you were disappointed, you must've been watching the wrong movie.
- Not to mention that Broly should still have been able to beat goku in a pulp...
- The 2008 special. It may not be considered canon, but even if you don't take it too seriously, it's got it's share of problems. Like: why didn't Vegeta's brother have some kind of strong reaction to seeing Goku go SSJ? Even if he wouldn't recognize it for what it was, why didn't it at least garner some kind of "Dude, what's with the hair?" reaction?
- He was probably too busy watching the numbers skyrocket on his scouter, a bit concerned by the small explosion on the side of his face, and too preoccupied with stopping the rapidly-approaching baddies, to really care where Goku was getting his power. In any other conditions, he most likely would have had a reaction of some sort. And he didn't seem very smart, either.
- Also, he probably heard stories about SSJ Goku defeating Frieza.
- He clearly hadn't heard anything of the sort - he believed Vegeta had been the one to defeat Frieza, remember?
- And for that matter, why didn't somebody tell Vegeta's brother that Vegeta was not the one to defeat Frieza? Vegeta just glares every time it's mentioned, then lets it go. Accepting credit for something he didn't do may be Out of Character or not, depending on your interpretation. But why didn't somebody speak up? You'd think at least Piccolo or Tien would have said something, but nooo.
- Things in short movies should serve the purpose of advancing the plot, or being entertaining or original. This isn't. So it is not mentioned.
- The question is on an in-universe basis, though - not from the writers' standpoint. Given the characters' previous development, it seems like someone would have said something, or at the very least, sent a few weird looks their way.
- They know Goku doesn't care about getting credit, so they don't care either. By that point in time, Frieza is like SO yesterday for them it doesn't matter WHO defeated him.
- Actually, in the original Japanese, he doesn't say "you" (referring to Vegeta only) but rather "you guys." It's just a translating mistake.
- Even if it wasn't, they would have to bring up the fact that Goku didn't actually finish off Frieza, but Trunks did. It's rather unclear how much Chibi Trunks knew about his alternate self, and given the time constraint on the situation, it was probably easier for everyone to just go along with Tarble's assumption.
- Cooler's Fifth Form doesn't actually make any sense. Frieza stated that he doesn't transform to get stronger, he actually transforms to get weaker in order for his body to contain his great power; thus his so called First Form is technically his Final Form and so forth. Cooler breaks this canonically stated rule by having his natural body possessing a transformation that takes him the wrong way. Before anyone says that we don't know that Cooler follows the same rules, he states himself that he possesses all of Frieza's transformations - meaning he too has the ability to transform backward into something weaker.
- I don't think it's necessarily that they start in the fourth form and transform down so much as there are several available forms, and they can move between them at will. Frieza could only manage to get up to the fourth form—and I don't recall him ever saying it was his "original" form—while Cooler is stronger, and thus has a fifth form.
- According to the Dragonball Wiki, Frieza's fourth form is indeed his true form. Cooler's fifth form, therefore, is probably a power distinct from the other transformations and is something more akin to the Super Saiyans- in other words, he's managed to push himself beyond what his race is normally capable of and achieved a very rare extra-powerful state. So he would then have his base form, three forms below it, and one form above it.
- He doesn't need to have three forms below it, Freeza created those transformations, it wasn't natural.
- But doesn't Cooler himself say he has all the same forms Frieza does?
- Maybe they just don't have the same naming conventions for their forms. They all have 5 in total but maybe Frieza calls his ultimate form his 4th form while Cooler calls his ultimate form the 5th form.
- It's implied he has those same transformations. We know that the 4th forms are in reality their true forms. It's possible that Cooler was simply so much better than Frieza that he could control his 4th form without any difficulty.
- From the numbers I've seen, 100% 4th form Frieza was at 120 million, and 5th form Cooler was at 470 million. It's just a point that Goku had gotten that much stronger inbetween the Namek fight and facing Cooler, as evidence by his brief spar with Future Trunks after Trunks had completely curbstomped Cyborg-Frieza.
- Freezer’s battle power was one million five hundred thousand while Goku’s was three million. Four hundred and seventy million is quite the exaggeration, seeing as Broly’s BP is thirty three million; enough to beat up the Super Saiyan 2 with ease. I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to assume Cooler has a better control of his powers as well as having surpassed the limits by getting an extra transformation. Remember that his fifth form overwhelmed Goku with ease before he went Super Saiyan; after which the battle was just too short.
- Actually, according to Daizenshuu 7, Frieza was one hundred twenty million to Goku's one hundred fifty million, so four hundred seventy isn't unreasonable for Cooler.
- Given that Cooler's 470,000,000 level came from an advertisement for a video game, it's highly unlikely that it's his "canon" level. However, he IS much stronger than Freeza, that much is known. Probably equal to or superior to Yardrat Goku.
- The observable evidence doesn't support the idea that Cooler is superior no matter what claims are made. Goku was trouncing Cooler without going Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan Goku trounced 5th form Cooler more easily than he did Frieza. In addition the Goku in Revenge of Cooler clearly didn't go to Yardrat (and Frieza and King Kold apparently never came to Earth as no mention of King Kold is made) because when Goku returned from Yardrat he could go Super at will, in Revenge of Cooler he's still mastering it and has to be pushed before he can transform so he's only slightly (though in DBZ "slightly" can be pretty radical) more powerful than he was on Namek.
- Except he was outright stated to have gone to Yardrat in both the official timeline and in the next movie before fighting Cooler. And even against this much stronger Goku, Cooler did far better than Freeza. He nearly killed Goku with his Supernova, and left him so damaged and exhausted that he was knocked out of Super Saiyan and couldn't even stand under his own power. He was about to be killed by Salza. By contrast, in the manga, Goku utterly annihilated Freeza and wasn't even breathing hard at the end of the battle.
- Maybe this is clearer in the original Japanese but why does Bojack even come to Earth? It stretches suspension of belief to think he actually came to Earth to take vengeance against the son of the student of one of the four warriors who imprisoned him years ago. He's not Broly where the guy is just nuts and it makes sense that Gotten looks enough like Goku to be attacked.
- According to the Latin American version (which is often pretty faithful to the Japanese one) Bojack did not know Goku and Gohan or even made a mention of his imprisonment. In fact, most of his “motivation” is summed in a series of lines.
Bojack: Boy! The Earth is a good planet!
Bido: The Great Bojack has no enemies in the entire galaxy!
Zangya: Neither there will be in the most beautiful planet in the Milky Way! The Earth!
Bujin: All who oppose the Great Bojack must die.
- I want to know how the Kais / Kaio's were able to imprison Bojack and his minions in the first place? Dragonball has always been bad at placing skill over power. Long story short, Bojack and Company are a match for fully trained Super Saiyans(though not super Saiyan 2), and Goku was far stronger than King Kai well before he reached that point. How were the Kais even able to avoid being splattered long enough to imprison Bojack and his crew?
- Either the Kais were a lot stronger once upon a time, which is partially supported by King Kai claiming that he and the South Kai had been involved with the battle against Majin Buu or Bojack got a lot stronger while imprisoned in King Kai's planet. The reality is that power levels are bullshit and there are so few reliable markers for us to use to reliably gauge what the actual power gaps are between any two characters at any given time in the series.
- Who says power was involved? Maybe they were able to perform some kind of magical ritual or something.
- I assume that magical rituals are factored into power levels same way rare techniques are. I mean if they could do a ritual that put them on par with Kid Buu back in the day why the hell didn't all the living Kais do it again and solve a problem they clearly didn't think the Z fighters had a prayer of solving.
- As the above asks, who says power was involved? While the Kais were apparently strong enough to fight Buu whatever was done to Bojack may have been done remotely or somehow in conjunction with someone like Supreme Kai to keep Bojack busy. We don't know how long Babbidy needed to put Buu back in his prison but it's flat out stated that he COULD and he was much weaker than Buu. The Kais may have a similar technique that was performed from a safe distance.
- So... what happened to Bardock after Episode of Bardock?
- He grew up and married you......seriously though, we'll have to wait if/when they make a follow-up special.
- Why did Vegeta automatically assume Bills was as dangerous as he was? I mean, yeah, he was right, but all he has to go by is that Bills humilated his father when he was a child. There are lots of people in the universe stronger than King Vegeta, and Vegeta surpassed almost all of them, including Gods themselves. Why did Vegeta of all people assume he couldn't take on Bills?
- King Kai told him that even Super Saiyan 3 Goku was no match for Bills. Vegeta, who's frequently was outclassed by Goku, wouldn't do any better.
- It was his Father and Vegeta obviously has a lot of respect for his Father. It doesn't matter how much stronger Vegeta has become over the years since then Bills will always be the guy who punked his Father and his Father will always be the strongest in the Universe. Same reason why Gohan had such a hard time with Cell. It was completely impossible that he was stronger than Goku despite the fact that he was clearly MUCH stronger than Goku. That and Vegeta is always the guy who has to put villains over, same as he did with Broly where he was the only one freaking out.
- Also it's part of Vegeta's job in the series to establish the strength of the latest villain by getting beat or in the case of both Bills and Broly being the only one with the necessary knowledge to properly understand just how fucked they all are and react appropriately.
- The Super Saiyan God transformation requires six pure-hearted Saiyans. Sure, Vegeta's a good guy now, but he sure as hell isn't pure-hearted.
- I haven't seen the movie yet but perhaps pure-hearted Saiyans necessary for the Super Saiyan God Transformation are no different than the pure hearts needed for the Super Saiyan Transformation in the first place. So it's either just a myth or Vegeta's heart is sufficiently pure even if purity in this case just means purely dedicated to being the best or something else absurd like that.
- And where the hell was Bra during all this? If she's younger than Pan she doesn't look it.
- At least in the manga/pre-GT anime, it's not implausible that Bra is younger than Pan. They both look like toddlers, at any rate, and seeing how Videl wasn't showing Pan was probably only recently conceived.
- Also, they get points for mentioning Tarble. However, I wonder: Goku did meet him, right? So, not knowing where he is shouldn't be a problem with Instant Transmission. Just sense ki, take him to Earth, and here we go, six Saiyans.
- Goku needs to have a general idea of where you are before he can sense your ki. Remember in the Buu Saga he needed King Kai to point him in the right general direction before he could find New Namek.
- Ok, so this was brought up in the Team Four Star parody, but this needs to be mentioned here; Dead Zone. Garlic Jr. tries to have Piccilo killed by his men before he gets a hold of all the dragon balls to wish for immortality, knowing that this would kill Kami and thus render the dragon balls useless. And then he opens a portal to the dead zone, the only thing that can defeat him, instead of just beating Goku and Piccilo to death with his hands.
- The first question is the fact that the Dragon Balls are linked to Kami and Kami to Picollo until late in the original Dragon Ball, judging by the dates of production and knowing that movies like filler are often made to give the manga time to catch up my guess is when Dead Zone was written it wasn't established yet. As for the second question that pretty much sums up every single villain great and small and half the heroes. Why didn't you solve this issue when you had the advantage or do it the easier way? Garlic Jr wanted people to suffer like his father had and he was easily beating the World's Finest at the moment. If Gohan wasn't simply immune to Garlic for reasons that have never been explained his plan would have worked just fine.
- Regarding Bardock, why did he even try to attack Frieza in the movie? Even if he didn't know about his transformations or his power level specifically, Bardock knew perfectly well that Frieza was DOZENS of times more powerful than he was, so why did he make an obviously futile effort to kill Frieza instead of getting the hell out of dodge and maybe training until he did stand a chance?
- Bardock like everybody who isn't Earth trained is incapable of sensing power levels so he likely had no clue how strong Frieza was other than hella. Couple that with the fact that relatively small differences in power are the difference between a fair fight and an utter curb stomp Bardock probably thought he was. . .about as powerful as he turned out to be in his second movie where he broke through to become a Super Saiyan.
- Bardock knew that Frieza was powerful enough to subjugate the ENTIRE Planet Vegeta by himself, everybody did, that's why everybody on the planet was scared shitless of him.
- Unfortunately that doesn't mean anything in Dragonball terms because again, relatively small changes in power levels are the difference between good fights and getting curb stomped and if you can't win a fight by yourself you can't win at all. Assuming what we know about Prince Vegeta is accurate and he was abnormally powerful PRE-Saiyan Saga, it's safe to say that If not Zarbon or Dodoria certainly any of the Ginyu's could have subjugated the entire planet. Bardock immediately after fighting Frieza gets his Zenkai boost and is strong enough to go Super Saiyan and defeat Chilled in his first form and unless the base for Super Saiyan strength varies a lot more than is ever implied in the series he would have been more than a match for Frieza's first three forms at the very least. Also it seems implied that Bardock's didn't think he could escape his fate so he didn't attack Frieza with the hopes of winning, he just wanted to go out like a boss.
- The thing is, Bardock knew Frieza was powerful enough to conquer all the saiyans including King Vegeta on his power alone, and Bardock knew that his power didn't even come close to that of King Vegeta's, so how would he believe he had a chance against Frieza, especially since he was badly wounded at the time? Bardock knew he was hopelessly outmatched and could have easily hopped in a pod and took off to anywhere in the universe and training to defeat Frieza. It would have made far more sense than futilely dying trying to take Frieza out right then despite knowing that it was futile. It seems more like the writers did a terrible job of trying to come up with a reason the character would die fighting Frieza as was Doomed by Canon that made sense than anything else.
- There is no "base Super Saiyan" level. It's just exactly x50 your normal power. SS Bardock would still get crushed like a bug by second form Freeza.
- The Super Saiyan form is also supposed to only be possible once one has reached the absolute limits of what the base state is capable of, and is pushed physically and psychologically to the breaking point, this is the reason a royally pissed off Goku didn't become a Super Saiyan back when Krillin was first killed. Bardock's power level should have been somewhere in the millions before he transformed, and since he could barely beat first form Chilled this was obviously not the case.
- In movie 4, why was Lord Slug trying to freeze the planet? Being a Namekian, he comes from a planet with three suns. Not to mention the fact that he is a Namekian stipulates he needs a water source in order to survive. Freezing the planet would be completely counterintuitive to his own survival. So why was this his ultimate goal?
- Really this is a case of Early-Installment Weirdness more than anything else. Lord Slug was released in March 1991. The Manga reaches Namek in July of 1990. It's safe to say the crew working on the movie didn't know much of anything about Namek or Namekians when the movie was made. So Lord Slug was drawing entirely on King Piccolo for understanding the rules.
- This is really more a general question than a movie question but since it's most effectively displayed vs Broly I'll put it here. It's cannon that Dragonball characters can share energy directly, not just Spirit Bombs but Gohan, Piccolo and Krillin give Goku energy vs Frieza and Goku gives Frieza energy at the end of their battle as well. Is there a reason why people don't do this from the start? I mean if half beat to death passing out Vegeta, Trunks and Gohan took Goku from pathetically weak compared to Broly to OHKO ing even with out Vegeta's boost they could have done that at the VERY BEGINNING and saved themselves a lot of pain. Fiction being what it is more powerful baddies would immediately happen but that's not an inverse reason to nearly die before you use a technique that's all win.
- In "Return of Cooler", Why did Goku think it was a good idea to bring Yajirobe, Roshi, and Oolong to New Namek? To us, they were there to serve as comic relief. But within the universe, it was a silly thing to do. Why didn't he bring Yamcha, Tien, and chaotzu?
- In the uncut version of ocean dub's The Tree Of Might, one of the purple twins said something about using the magic fruit to take on Frieza. What makes them think eating the fruit(s) will make them strong enough to kill Frieza?
- They had no idea what kind of boost the fruit would give them and if I understand properly the boost could be performed multiple times. So given enough time and enough planets it likely would have worked. It did produce a massive power boost. And as powerful as Frieza actually was it's important to note that nearly everybody thought he was much, much weaker than he turned out to be. Frieza and Ginyu were the only warriors who could adjust their power levels and it wasn't until Frieza and Goku started fighting that the planet based Scouter shorted out. Everybody under Frieza's rule likely had him pegged at about 500k BP. More than enough to smash every known fighter in the universe, simultaneously if needed but magic fruit might get you that bump. Sure it was an act of desperation but Vegeta tried near death experience for it.
- Not really an important question, but in the japanese version of Dead Zone, what is that music that plays when Piccolo fights Sancho? I've been wanting to get the title of that for quite some time.
- Why did King Vegeta try to murder Broly? Was he worried that a saiyan would become more powerful than him and his son? Maybe he was worried about Broly being a danger to their planet.
- The reason the movie seems to imply is that he feared a Saiyan more powerful than himself and his family. Broly in the end turns out to be insane and nothing in the movie suggests that he was driven insane instead of just being born wrong. Perhaps this has happened before? And finally planets and worse buildings are fairly fragile things in the DB Zverse. I wouldn't want a toddler with a BP of 10,000 running around! Especially with a fricken tail. Oozaru Broly would easily have laid waste to planet Vegeta and nothing shy of Frieza himself would have posed as so much as a speed bump to him.
- Due to his extraordinary power at birth King Vegeta believed that Broly had the potential to surpass him, and like just about all rulers he more concerned with maintaining his own power than anything else, even the lives of his people. If King Vegeta thought about it he would have realized that Broly was also the Saiyan's best chance of ever freeing themselves from the grasp of Frieza and living to tell the tale.
- Which raises the question of why Paragus didn't aim Broly at Frieza. It would have been fairly simple. Rig the power restrainer to fail, load Broly into a Pod and fire it at Frieza's ship. Given the beating Broly gave to the Z Fighters a battle between Broly and Frieza would have been one sided. And Broly the Second Coming suggests Broly can either breathe in space or learned Instant Transmission.
- Given how casually Broly killed his own father it was probably for the best Paragus didn't set him loose on Frieza...knowing Broly he may have gone on to destroy Planet Vegeta himself just for the hell of it.
- Makes you wonder if King Vegeta would have killed Bardock if he knew he was getting stronger?
- Bardock was a low-class warrior. of course King Vegeta would've killed him if he knew he was getting stronger.
- How did Broly not kill his mother before he was born? The movie states he was born at 10,000 BP. That's roughly where Vegeta was power wise when he enters the series and it's stated several times that Vegeta was an elite warrior and probably the strongest Saiyan at the time. It's unlikely that Broly's mother was even half as powerful as that. He should literally have kicked straight through her womb. And once he was born he should have nearly immediately wrecked the hospital. Gohan stands as exhibit A that even very, very young saiyans can tap into a significant portion of their power instinctively.
- Episode of Bardock has the titular character being blown back thousands of years ago, and becomes a Super Saiyan against Chilled. Chilled then warns his descendants of this, supposedly setting a Stable Time Loop for Frieza's fear of the Saiyans and Bardock going back in time in the first place. Wait a minute-the Androids/Cell saga shows that whenever someone goes back in time, they create a tangent history unrelated to their own. How can our Frieza know of the Super Saiyan threat since DBZ time travel laws would have Bardock do all this in a whole 'nother timeline?
- It's because of the different means of time travel probably. Either that or Frieza would have feared Super Saiyans regardless so it didn't really change much of anything.
- How strong was Lord Slug anyway? I heard he was stronger than Frieza or close to his level. Goku in his "false super saiyan" form probably couldn't stop a giant sized Slug.
- One thing I noticed is that you don't see Tien, Chaotzu, and Yamcha in some of the movies. Dr. Wheelo, Garlic Jr, Lord Slug, Cooler, Broly, and Bio Broly were wrecking havoc on earth and the 3 Z-fighters didn't sense their energy?? The movie villains don't exactly keep a low profile. These guys were blowing up buildings, killing people, and powering up.