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Headscratchers: Dissidia: Final Fantasy
  • How could Chaos be a driving force behind this game's plot if Garland IS Chaos (In FF1 anyway)? The game seems to treat the two as completely separate entities, which contradicts FF1's plot. So we either have a Retcon or the writers got it wrong.
    • From what I understand, the way Final Fantasy I's Stable Time Loop works means that Chaos and Garland coexisted during the time between Garland being born and his defeat by the Warriors of Light.
      • This is what I figure. After Chaos was defeated by the Warriors of Light, he decided to get revenge, and being a master of exploiting the Stable Time Loop, bootstrapped himself into a god. Then he got the time-traveling Ultimecia to meet up with Garland and they gathered up the rest of the villains and Gabranth and the rest just fell into place. Essentially, Chaos was playing Blitzball with time.
      • Remember that there are TWO Final Fantasy I worlds, world (A) and world (B). The Chaos from the Dissidia games is from world (B), you could say he was the "inspiration" for the Chaos of world (A).
      • Chaos and Garland are two separate beings, Chaos was just possessing/manipulating Garland. Garland even stays a good guy after the time loop is fixed in FF1.
      • They are separate, but they are the same guy, just taken from different times. Garland says as much in Shade Impulse.
    • Looking for perfect canon conformity in a Massive Multiplayer Crossover is one of the sure paths to madness.
      • That bugged me too. However, they seem to be treating Chaos as a God... which would put him on the same level as half the bad guys, so more of a God. Perhaps Garland, as he is in Dissidia, is some kind of high priest of Chaos? You'd also have to reconcile how Cosmos fits in.
      • From my understanding of the plot, Chaos had brought 10 villains from the Final Fantasy multiverse, meaning it's not the same Chaos as the one from FFI. Cosmos has countered by bringing the heroes. Too bad they are not bringing out the guys from FFXII.
      • Dude, they managed to find playable representation of the Final Fantasy MMORPG for Dissidia. I'm sure SOMEONE from Final Fantasy XII is going to find his way into this mess.
      • Judge Gabranth just showed up and he is AWESOME!
    • A fanfic this troper read (yes, this is hardly Word of God, but it's just speculation) posited that each Final Fantasy Big Bad acted as an agent of Chaos, which the fic presented as some kind of evil Powers That Be. Hence why almost all of them ended up being a nihilistic Omnicidal Maniac or were all along. Kind of like how each Big Bad in Sailor Moon turned out be an aspect of Chaos, the Big Bad of the universe.
    • Everyone who posted to the above ought to go here and read the whole thing. Chaos / Garland IS addressed, and in an ...unexpected way.
    • Report 12, told from Garland's POV, reveals that Garland was freed from Final Fantasy's Stable Time Loop and brought to World B by Shinryu and encountered Cid, Cosmos, and Dissidia's Chaos, who he named after his own One-Winged Angel:
    Garland: I heard a voice speak to me as I laid dying - and that voice was my own. My words were the only clues I had of the realm in which I found myself - in which I assumed time has been frozen for 2000 years. The life of endless solitude felt like a nightmare from which there is no waking. In the present, I no longer have an interest in carrying my future self back to the past. But 2000 years is excruciatingly long. As I imagined the hatred building inside me that would eventually and inevitably lead to make an irreparable mistake, all I could do was cower in fear. As I wandered, I happened upon a man who had lost sight of what to protect - and learned that this realm was not 2000 years in the past. With the man was a woman without warmth, and a giant beast curled into a ball. The beast spoke; he was struggling to deny his own destructive nature. I could not help but reach out to him. I often think of the start of the cycle. I as Chaos summon me from the future; once summoned, I become Chaos. This cursed cycle could not have started unless one other than myself carried me to the past. I wonder if the truth will ever be revealed. The beast often spoke of whence he came - of ships that used wind to sail the skies, of precision machines that moved like humans. His stories were considered "lore" in my realm. Intrigued, we told one another about ourselves and imagined where we would return. I shall give a name to this beast one day.

  • I can understand them giving a generic name to "Warrior Of Light", but "Onion Knight" just seems lazy. Why not just call him Luneth?
    • Because he isn't Luneth. In the original Final Fantasy III, the heroes didn't have default names. Luneth didn't exist until the remake for DS. However, Onion Knight has an alternate costume that makes him look like Luneth.
      • If anyone, he's Ingus. Blond hair & red onion armor.
      • For the record, his alt costume looks like Luneth.
      • And now his third costume makes him look more like the Unnamed Hero. He's a Composite Character, OK?
  • Why is Garland acting so mean to the heroes? Why doesn't he just make them some cookies?
    • Because they didn't like his tacos, and NOBODY hates Garland's tacos and lives to tell the tale.
      • That's 'cause they don't remember hating his tacos. Amnesia Peppers, remember? Oh wait... that's tragic. They don't even remember why he's mad at them!

  • Why the hell doesn't the Warrior of Light look anything like any of the available classes in Final Fantasy I? The least they could have done was throw some red in there, but why does he have antlers?
    • Because the Warrior of Light is a separate character from the Final Fantasy I character classes. Warrior of Light is the guy that appears in the logo for the game and the opening FMV.
    • More specifically, it is the concept art of what I assume is the Fighter or Knight class, drawn by Yoshitaka Amano and given 3D life for Final Fantasy Origins. Since the NES couldn't possibly display that kind of color or detail, they simplified the design and changed the predominant color from blue to red so they would have an equal number of blue and red classes.
      • Fighter is his alt costume. The different costumes for the characters from I-VI are in two categories: Original concepts/Nomura re-imaginings.

  • Why is it that the plot and setting of Dissidia match so well with DragonForce?
    • Maybe the developers are fans? Bands like Dragonforce tend to be huge in Japan.
    • "Dragon Force" the game, not the band.
      • Works either way, really.

  • Bartz's build in Dissidia is impossible under the rules of Final Fantasy V. He is a Mime, so he gets Mimic (likely what he uses to be able to copy the weapons and abilities of the other Cosmos fighters), 3 abilities, and the passive abilities of any class he's mastered. To be able to perform his EX Burst, he needs to have mastered Ninja to have Dual Wield, as well as having Rapid Fire, Spellblade, and Equip Swords (because Mimes don't get Equip swords naturally, even after having mastered Knight). All that I get. However, what bugs me is that in EX Mode, he can also use Goblin Punch, a Blue Magic spell. You couldn't have that build in FFV, that's one too many abilities equipped.
    • That's your gripe? Onion Knight is worse, depending on what version of FFIII you prefer, he's either supposed to be the all around weakest character or the all around strongest, but instead he's a Fragile Speedster. Though since their abilities aren't really part of the plot, Square could have done anything (as long as the characters are playable) and we'd have to roll with it. Cecil's class changing is another case (though it makes sense plot-wise for his original game).
      • Except for Goblin Punch, Bartz's build is perfectly doable in FF V, and is, in fact, the most well known (and arguably his strongest). The fact that he has the addition of a single command that breaks it is what bugs me, far more than if it was just completely out of game mechanics, because it comes so close to being perfectly doable. Onion Knight is another big problem, but at least his Ninja and Sage forms make sense.
      • You shouldn't think about the "EX mode" build, but rather the "EX Burst" build. In EX mode, he gains another HP attack. Big thing. He also has a bunch of other moves like Holy and Flare he shouldn't be able to use without Black Magic and White Magic. The thing is, when he does his EX Burst, he uses a build that IS completely possible in the original game, because then we are not counting Goblin Punch. I see it as simple as that.
    • The very concept of this game was transplanting old turn-based RPG characters into an action-based fighting system (albeit with RPG stats). Obviously, not everyone or everything was going to make the transition absolutely perfectly. Let it go.

  • The Brave Blade is the ultimate sword that Bartz uses at the end of his EX Burst. However, he spends half of Destiny Odyssey V running from fights.
    • Rule of Funny.
    • Onion Knight is the one who runs from fights. Bartz is merely on a sneaking mission.
      • Is the use of stealth required?
      • Not required, but one of his Destiny Odyssey chapters easily illustrates the Game Breaker potential of Invisible. "Go from zero to Stigma of Chaos in 1 DP? How can I lose?"

  • In the English release, the stage from Final Fantasy IV is called "Lunar Subterrane". Only, it's not. It's the Lunar Surface; the Subterrane is the dungeon within the Moon's core.

  • The Character Files say that Cloud Of Darkness was defeated by a flood of light 1000 years ago. But that's wrong, isn't it? The flood of light summoned her, as light surrounding a core of darkness, and she was defeated by the Warriors of Darkness, right?
    • No, a flood of light would have summoned a Cloud of Light. Anyway, that still doesn't really make sense, as the Cloud of Darkness was defeated by the combined forces of light and dark.
      • The naming is just semantics, though. It's still the same entity that the Dark Warriors fought 1000 years ago. They even use the name "Cloud of Darkness", if I remember correctly. In either case, it's wrong; the flood of light (or "Wrath of the Light", or whatever) summoned the "cloud of X", and it was the Dark Warriors who defeated her. The files say that she was defeated by the flood of light, which isn't right. Perhaps the character files were trying to avoid being ambiguous about her being evil, or something?

  • OK, Terra's near-exclusive use of long-range magic doesn't bug me (after all, magic ability is her defining feature in her game). What does bug me is that her equipment options are limited to knives, staves, and rods, despite that A: she uses a sword in gameplay (albeit only in Chase), and B: she's actually unable to use staves and rods in Final Fantasy VI, and could only use a very select few knives. At least her exclusive weapons include the chain flail and morningstar, weapons she could use.
    • I think it was more of an issue of assigning her weaponry that supported her stats. Since her attacks all revolve around ranged magic, giving her swords would be completely pointless.
      • Actually, no. In Dissidia, there is no separate attack stat for magic and physical strikes. Attack is Attack is Attack. An attack boost from a sword is the same as an attack boost from a staff, rod, or bell.
      • Yes, but I think the point that's being made is that giving her swords doesn't work when it's not the weapon she uses in battle (that weapon being, of course, magic, aside from the sword in Chase). Equipping her with rods and staves in order to increase her attack power/magic power (which, as you pointed out, is the same thing in Dissidia) makes sense in that context. I'll grant that the knives don't work with that explanation, but then again, can't everyone equip knives?
    • Game Play Story Segregation. The equipment, from the perspective of the story, doesn't exist; it's only for the player to tinker with. It's the same reason that none of the characters' models change based on equipment; Sephiroth always wields the Masamune even if you haven't got him equipped with it, for example.

  • Terra's treatment in the story mode's opening just bugs me. The other nine heroes get show various levels of badassery. Even the Onion Knight. Terra deflects a spell and has to be rescued. She may have her timidness from the beginning of her own game, but even then, she wasn't averse to setting something on fire if it threatened her. Would it really have been so difficult for them to show off some of her magic? She has Holy, Meteor, Meltdown, and Ultima. Even if they didn't want to show skills the characters have to learn, she still has Fire, Blizzara, Flood, and Tornado to work with. No matter what, she has more than enough magic for them to have shown her in a proper mage duel with Kefka, Golbez, Ultimecia, or Kuja.
    • Actually, for what it's worth, Terra handles her fight with Kefka pretty well, even exhibiting an ability that she doesn't get in the actual game: Teleport. Not to mention that, out of all the pre-battle cutscenes, she's one of very few Warriors of Cosmos to not get hit before their battle. Consider:
      • Firon gets trapped in a huge explosion by the Emperor
      • Onion Knight has to tank a huge Particle Beam
      • Cecil gets zapped by Cosmic Ray
      • Bartz has trouble fighting Exdeath's sword
      • Cloud barely manages to block a Scintilla attack
      • Squall is pretty much completely at Ultimecia's teleporting, time-stopping mercy
      • Tidus gets falcon punch'd by Jecht.
    • Only Warrior of Light, Terra, and Zidane get to the main fight without getting hit or knocked away at least once. She teleported to try and get some breathing room; there were too many spells flying around for her to put up a real offensive. See also the opening cinematic, where Terra singlehandedly reflects a full salvo of magic missiles from Ultimecia. Though, I do admit that the other heroes standing up after those attacks makes them look a lot more Bad Ass.
      • That's what bugs me. That's ALL she does. There's no reason why she couldn't have been shown using some of her own magic. At the very least, she could have been shown launching a fireball at Ultimecia before needing to be rescued from Mateus' trap. At least it's a consolation that in game she demonstrates how Bad Ass a Squishy Wizard can be, but that makes the Cutscene Incompetence in the opening more jarring.
      • To be fair, we don't see the entire fight, for the next thing we see is Squall and Sephiroth in mid-battle.
      • That, and we see about five seconds of each character in the opening. They don't have time for much. And deflecting magic missiles isn't showing off Terra's magical prowess? Not to mention that all the deflected missiles aren't just scattered, but redirected to another Warrior of Chaos.
      • That's something every character can do. Haven't you ever done a well timed block? Or had one used against you? It's still not showing her power in a way that makes her look like she can stand with the other Cosmos warriors.
      • Not quite. Every character can block and redirect magical strikes, but only if you time it well, and only for a limited period of time. What Terra does, though, is throw up a magic shield that stops a very long salvo of attacks cold and scatters them for a sustained amount of time.
      • It seems like most of the opening video was really to show the characters struggling against each other, not to show any hero's power in a really big way. If you want to look at some of the other heroes; Onion Knight's only real act in that same video is to bang his sword on Garland's helmet a few times and outrun one of The Emperor's traps. And all we see of Cecil is him tanking a Particle Beam and changing classes. As the guy above me said, there's not much time for the heroes to do much that is really impressive in that video; the villains do all the really impressive stuff there.
      • Oh, and in response to what you said before, she does launch a fireball at Ultimecia before stepping onto Mateus's trap seal. It's just a little hard to see with all the magic missiles flying about. It's just before she does that huge backflip while dodging Ultimecia's magic arrows.
      • And as someone pointed out earlier, the nine boys were struggling too. So, what? Boys are allowed to get their asses handed to them but girls aren't?
      • Of course girls can get their asses handed to them when the result is the same as the guys getting their asses handed to them. That was not the case here. The guys either got out of their problems themselves or helped each other in a way that makes them look stronger. Terra was made to look like a standard damsel in distress.
      • Yeah, because Bartz totally looked stronger clinging for dear life while Exdeath held the void out. And Onion Knight was so Bad Ass the way he was launched by the Emperor's traps.
      • The opening was also designed to show that the characters were working together. Bartz needed Zidane and Tidus to bail him out when Exdeath had him dangling from the cliff, which, if anything, makes him come off as even weaker than Terra, who was able to hold her own against Ultimecia for a fair amount of time before the sheer number of pointy, death-causing magic arrows reaches an overwhelming point, at which point she she fires off one last fire spell before flipping off to try her hand elsewhere. It's only then that the Emperor gets her in a trap. The other characters coming in to bail her out really seems to me to be more of a way of showing that, again, the characters are helping each other, and to give Cloud and the Warrior of Light something more to do in the video.
      • Let's be fair, though. Bartz was against Exdeath.
      • Well, she only looked like a damsel in distress because the villains were trying to capture her, not kill her. And why were they trying to capture her? Because of the raw power she commands. Bartz, Zidane, and Onion Knight had stints as a male Distressed Damsel, too. The only reason Terra didn't fight her way out like they did is because Onion Knight had had to knock her out when she started rampaging, and she wasn't able to wake up until he had already made his way to her. And because in her case, the villains actually cared about keeping her hostage.
      • They weren't trying to take her hostage in the opening. I've already stated that it's her treatment in the opening that bothers me, not her treatment in-game.
      • And she wasn't a Damsel in Distress in the opening, so what exactly are you complaining about again?
      • And the answer to that is that she pulled off something fairly awesome anyway and wasn't made out to be any more helpless than some of the other combatants, such as Bartz and the Onion Knight.
    • And another thing about Terra; in her story mode, Kefka basically tells her she's nothing but a force for destruction, like him. Coupled with the fact that her powers seemed to be going out of control, I think she's allowed to be scared and upset.
      • My issue is not with her in-game personality. My issue is that in the opening she was made to look almost helpless when even in the beginning of her own game she was anything but.
      • I beg to differ on that last point. Remember when she got hopelessly cornered in the Narshe Mines and Locke had to rescue her? After her amnesia took hold, she was very vulnerable, scared, and confused. Much like Destiny Oddessy VI, now that I think about it.
      • Point taken about the Narshe mines, but it's not very long after that that she starts setting magiteck armored knights on fire even though there's been almost zero change to her personality. It's not Gameplay and Story Segregation either, casting a fire spell triggers a conversion with Locke and Edgar that's continued after the battle.
      • Yes, she does it in self-defense and is extremely self-conscious about her powers and how she can be abused. And she still needs Edgar and Locke to help her out. She doesn't gain anything close to confidence for the first half of the game and she's only a one-woman army in some of the cutscenes.

  • OK, so, those spell-balls that Kuja floats around with him and uses to attack aren't connected to him in any visible way. So why is it that when an attack using the spell-balls directly is blocked, Kuja staggers as if the enemy blocked a punch?
    • Uh, there's probably only one reaction programed in for being blocked.
      • Actually, after playing Kuja for a bit, I suspect that the spell-balls are programed as Kuja's "physical" attacks, so, therefore, he gets the standard physical attack stagger when he's blocked.
      • Or perhaps he's not physically linked to the orbs but psychically linked; both him and Shantotto react the same way when they're blocked (well, Shantotto's aerial boomerang staff attack), so maybe blocking those attacks has some effect on their link and they suffer a "backlash" of sorts... not sure if I'm making any sense...

  • A dagger is statistically superior in every aspect to a broadsword. How does that make sense?
    • Same reason Icicle Inn has more-powerful weapons than Junon. Which reason is that? I dunno. The lulz, is my best guess.

  • I can't recall offhand, but do Garland and Kuja ever meet? Would/does Kuja hate that Garland, too? Are they the same(expyish) person? This troper feels cheated and disappointed that there wasn't an epic battle between them.
    • You can blame Jecht. They almost had a fight (for different reasons than irrational Garland-hate), but Jecht defused the situation by asking to join in. After that, Kuja basically went "screw it" and left.
      • Interestingly enough, if you fight Kuja with Garland, Kuja will say: "You make my skin crawl... Garland!", in a furious tone. As if we didn't have enough Epileptic Trees already.
      • It's a Continuity Nod, plain and simple. For those who aren't familiar with the story in Final Fantasy IX, one of the main villains in IX (not counting Kuja or Necron) is a Badass Grandpa named... wait for it... Garland. It is Garland who reveals Kuja's origin as a genome (and an inferior one at that). The revelation from being the Flawed Prototype to Zidane, The Angel of Death (and the Anti-Antichrist), causes Kuja to experience his Villainous Breakdown, which in turn causes Kuja to become... er... Kuja, Destroyer of Terra. Thus, the whole Garland vs. Kuja thing (as is all of Dissidia) is a nod to Final Fantasy. Garland's own quote ("I sense you are haunted by your fate") even references Kuja's fear of dying alone and his role as an imperfect Angel of Death. furthermore, he and Zidane have some choice words for each other when they have fights. Garland says "I will erase you, and your soul!" as a reference to the part in IX where Garland was going to take back the soul he gave Zidane. In return, Zidane will say "This place will be your grave!", or something like that; apparently sort of referencing a line where he says that he is the angel of Garland's death.

  • Keep in mind that this troper has only played the first game, and please help her understand. So on the topic of Kuja, this troper is replaying Final Fantasy IX and has just realized something about Kuja. Namely that Kuja. Is. Bad. Ass. Seriously! He might be the single most effective villain in Final Fantasy history, barring maybe the Emperor and Kefka. Still, he's got a kill count to rival both of theirs, and he achieves the ultimate power (his mega-Trance) that he seeks, just as they do when they take over hell and screw with the Warring Triad respectively. Plus he nukes a whole planet with minimal effort, so there's that. Throughout the entire game he's barely even inconvenienced by his enemies, and when he is, he turns it to his advantage in a matter of minutes. He takes a MEGAFLARE TO THE FACE and he LAUGHS. The same Mega Flare that later obliterates an entire fleet - including the last person to insult Kuja to his face. Heck, I don't even think Zidane and company technically defeat him! He just sort of gets impatient and kills everyone on the battlefield with Ultima and then summons Necron...somehow...let's not get into that. So why the hell does everyone treat Kuja like he's some immature, ineffective kid? Wouldn't the Emperor, at least, have recognized that Kuja has both power and cunning enough to rival his? And why doesn't Kuja stick up for himself in the same way he would in his home game - with a rhyming couplet and a fucking Mega Flare to the face?
    • Familiar with the saying "Act like a kid and get treated like one?" Kuja may have been as wise or dangerous than a lot of the other villains; but he acted like a pouty, narcissistic sod to the point where everybody discredited him. Honestly, if I showed up there and one of my team-mates was a girly-man in a thong, I wouldn't be taking him seriously either.
    • Keep in mind who he's working with: Garland is basically the larval form of Chaos, the Emperor is the king of Hell itself, the Cloud of Darkness and EX-Death and Eldrich Abomindation in humanoid forms who are completely obsessed with destruction, Golbez is working behind the scenes to help Cosmos and end the eternal conflict, Kefka has the powers of the Warring Triad and wants to destroy everything and everyone, Sephiroth is a super Soldier obsessed with playing mnd games with Cloud, Ultimecia is a Sorceress who is basically a magical demi-god who can bend the laws of space and time over and make them her bitch and Jecht is a just a good guy who wants to reunite with Tidus and go home. Of all of the above the only one who would care or even be somewhat impressed is Kefka, and only to use as a tool to kill everyone else, which is exactly what he tries to do in the game. The others aren't that impressed and Kuja's ata major disadvantage since he's not on his home turf where he knows all the players in the game and can manipulate them from behind the scenes. Kuja is overly dramatic, which messes up his plans and make shim appear foolish. His power is impressive but so is almost everyone else's on Chaos' side.

  • SE already jossed the "Ultimecia=Rinoa Theory," so why are Utly's exclusive weapons based on Rinoa's? Are they taking a page from Tite Kubo?
    • Well, they're both Sorceresses, so I'm guessing that the exclusive weapons are based on that fact, rather than that theory.
      • It could also be a Take That to those who still insist on Rinoa being Ultimecia and all that jazz.
      • Well, if Ultimecia wielding Rinoa's weapons makes them the same person, I guess this proves my Garnet=Kuja and Tidus=Wakka theories correct.
      • Ultimecia is from the future, remember? Rinoa probably went down in history for her role, so many future sorceresses could have looked up to her and used the same sort of weapons out of respect and admiration. Which could mean there was some serious irony in Ultimecia becoming the Big Bad Squall, Rinoa, and the rest brought down.

  • So Chaos and Cosmos are gods to the Final Fantasy characters. I get that, that's fine. But what about creatures like FFVI's Warring Triad, or other beings likened to or referred to as gods in their own games? What are Chaos and Cosmos to them? Are they stronger? Equal?
    • Of differing category. Chaos and Cosmos are in charge of Light and Darkness. The Warring Triad, by contrast, is in charge of magic. They have different portfolios. As for comparative levels of divinity, who the smeg knows. They may not even be the same type of gods — one may be anthropomorphic personifications of a concept, whereas the other may simply be of a creator-species that is so far above man as to be deemed a god.
      • Aren't they all from different universes anyway? The Warring Triad could only hold power over the world they themselves live in instead of all reality.

  • Something odd about the progression of events. The order that the Destiny Odyssey cutscenes are shown in the Theatre mode is canon, with each cutscene shown in chronological order (which creates a lot of overlapping and dipping into other stories). But one scene just bugs me. So; Firion is attacked by Sephiroth, who steals his Wild Rose. Cloud fights Sephiroth and takes the rose back from him, with the intention of returning it to Firion. That's fine. But in one scene, Cloud meets with Terra, and shows him the Wild Rose; but in the immediate next cutscene, we have the start of Destiny Odyssey II, with Firion producing the Wild Rose himself. This happens in between Destiny Odyssey VI cutscenes, while Cloud (who still has the Wild Rose) is travelling with Terra, looking for Onion Knight. So how the smeg did Firion get his Rose back for that cutscene? Are there two of them? If so, why would he care, to the point of fighting Sephiroth until he was down on one knee from exhaustion, about getting back the one that Sephiroth stole?
    • If you're refering to that scene where Firion and Tidus are taking a break, I think that Firion is NOT materializing the Wild Rose. He's just remembering it, and the game shows it to us to show us what he's thinking, but I believe the "animation" for the rose to appear is different from any other time. He's just remembering the Wild Rose as if wondering, "Where did it go?" and then he realizes it must have been during that fight against Sephiroth.
  • Okay, while I was squeeing over various pieces of merch, it hit me. Cosmos is not just another word for the universe, but we derived it from the greek word which is opposite of chaos, whether you call it "Law", "Order", or just "Non-chaos". I don't think there's more than three of the Cosmos Champions which are non-Chaotic Good. Why are, among other things, a rebel, a free spirit, at least two terrorists, a thief, and various others who have probably had their faces on wanted posters at some point in their stories fighting for the personification of the force which oppresses their nature? (Okay, yeah, I know, it's a Good v. Evil thing that wasn't expecting people to catch any of the Gratuitous Latin and Greek, but it still is kind of strange to me.)
    • Since when did a thief or a terrorrist have to be free-spirited? Just because they are breaking the law doesn't mean they are against Order. You are confusing being "Lawful" (a Dungeons & Dragons term) with being on the side of "Order".
    • This is a questionable element, certainly, but I don't think there's any real answer to this. Based on their names, we could argue that the concept of the conflict is that of Order Versus Chaos, but instead, it's really about Good vs. Evil and, to a point, Light VS Darkness, which makes it a bit contradictory altogether.
    • Who knows, maybe the producers originally did intend for things to be different to the final result. Earlier trailers had scenes with the villains saying things that suggested that Cosmos wasn't good either, and even Warrior of Light seemed to be aware of it. So perhaps the game, as originally intended, might have allowed you to choose your side.
    • And now that I mention that, weren't the original promotional materials of Dissidia claiming that you could actually pick the side of Cosmos or the side of Chaos, suggesting you would also be able to play a Story Mode with the Villains? (Now, wouldn't that be awesome?)
    • Overall, I personally believe there were some abandoned ideas in the final result of the project that was Dissidia, resulting in a story that was much more simple. But of course, this is all speculation.
    • Eh, there's a better explanation. Cosmos is order, and Chaos is... chaos. But they don't always need to use ordered people to get order. Cosmos wants peace, because peace is order, and Chaos wants destruction, because that's disorder. Even the chaotic heroes want peace and even the lawful villains want destruction.
      • Peace isn't necessarily order; where's the order in constant peace with no war to balance it? It seems more that Cosmos is supposed to balance the scales and Chaos unbalances it to keep the multiverse flowing. She enlists the heroes to bring peace because the cycle of war has gone on for 13 times already, Chaos has unbalanced the scales for too long. Also, not all villains want destruction (Golbez wants peace, Mateus wants to rule) and not all heroes want peace (Tidus is in it to off Jecht, Shantotto is/was known and feared for destruction).
    • More importantly, these are not Dungeons and Dragons characters and there is more to these characters than their presumed alignment. Remember, the Final Fantasy series never actually used the Dungeons and Dragons alignment system, so there is no reason to assume that "Character X from Show X is for sure alignment Y, so X can't do Y" unless the writers actually use them. This means that characters like Cloud have no canonical alignment, so saying that he can't do something that seems to be contradicting to that alignment you interpreted would be wrong, it just means that perhaps you need to reinterpret that alignment you gave to him. In an extreme example, if you say that a presumed Knight In Shining Armour is Lawful Good, that does not mean that in situation X he can't go around murdeing innocent people for money, it just means that in this case you need to reinterpret his alignment to Chaotic Evil. Similarily but less dramatically, if you assume an psychopath who wants nothing more than to kill people for pleasure to be Chaotic Evil, it does not mean he can't be willing to take orders from someone else, it just means that in that hypothetical scenario you need to reinterpret the psychopath's alignment to be Neutral Evil.
      • Yes, exactly. To take a specific example of how character alignment can change within one game: in Final Fantasy VII, Squall and the rest of the SeeDs start off Lawful Good, are imprisoned and chased by officers of the law several times throughout the game, and pretty much end up Lawful/Neutral Good again at the end when the authorities give them the blessing to go and stop Ultimecia. For another, Cecil starts off as Lawful Evil in FFIV and quickly becomes Neutral Good. In Final Fantasy IX, Tantalus manages to be both Chaotic Good and Lawful Good at the same time by engaging in thievery and kidnapping under Cid's orders. There is nothing straightforward about the heroic characters' development in any of the post-III games (and this also goes for a few of those in the first three, like Leon) aside from the fact they essentially have and fulfill the potential to fight for good.
      • Um... Firstly... Kidnapping is Evil. Secondly the point I was trying to make is that these characters technically have no alignment by virtue of not being D&D characters — in other words, for example, Cloud "being" Chaotic Good is just an opinion, not fact, as different people have different ideas of what characters from works not canonically using alignments have what alignment — see Batman for an obvious example of someone whose alignment is being argued, and usually whether or not Batman is considered Lawful, Neutral, or Chaotic Good depends on how you interpret his character as well as what you interpret alignments to mean.
    • I think that what we're forgetting here is that Cosmos and Chaos aren't gods of order and disorder, they're gods of harmony and discord, which aren't quite the same thing. Consider the Chaotic Good Robin Hood and his Merry Men living in the forest in relative harmony, while the Lawful Evil Sheriff and Prince John cause discord with their taxation and oppression. Not to mention that in the secret ending that getting all the Reports unlocks, it says that order and disorder are just concepts made up by people anyway.
      • The D&D manual itself says that "alignment is a tool for developing your character's identity. It is not a straightjacket for restricting your character." (Emphasis added by me.) So too much argument over the alignment of a character who isn't canonically given one defeats the point of the alignment system. Sure, some characters are totally freaking obvious in terms of alignment (for instance, there's no way that Sonic the Hedgehog is anything but Chaotic Good), but the characters we're talking about here are more complex than that, and shouldn't be labeled so casually.

  • A joke fan-made screenshot made it seem like Lightning from Final Fantasy XIII was going to be in this game. It wasn't true, of course, but it leads me to an interesting question: Why isn't Lightning in this game? It would have been an awesome secret character, and a nice taste of the plot and battle system of FFXIII. Instead we have... well, nobody. Off topic, and purely my own fanwankery, but the game also needed Balthier.
    • She's not in it because the guy in charge of the games didn't want players to be spoiled as to her fighting style. I forget exactly where, but this is cited in a few places on TV Tropes.
      • Then Nomura rejected it for the exact same reason I wanted it? How perfect!
      • Lightning was rejected for Dissidia because FF13 hadn't come out by the time Dissidia was released in Japan; one of the developers (not 100% sure it was Nomura) said that they didn't want her fighting style set in stone before the release of her debut game.
    • Then again, hadn't FF13 already come out by the time of the latest Dissidia's updated release?
    • In one part of the world, yes. And yes, it was a rumor and hoax that Lightning would be in it.
    • Well, she's in Duodecim, now, so there you go.

  • Why can't Exdeath use Sap?
    • Is this a tree pun?
    • It probably is, but it's still a fair question technically.

  • The Chocobo Accessories are the Down, Wing, and Feather. Going by what the terms actually mean, "down" (soft feathers of young birds) makes sense as the weakest, but why is an entire wing not as effective as a lone feather?
    • A friend of mine supposes ANIMAL CRUELTY!

  • ....who's running the shop? Final Fantasy has always let us win gil and items from random enemies, let's not ponder that. But Dissidia explicitly states that the worlds have been shattered, and only the fighters have survived to carry on the battle. So who the heck is running the shop? Okay, maybe a Moogle, they seem to have survived if Mognet is any indication, but this raises the question of what they plan to use the gil for since they're the only shop left in existence.
    • The shop exists purely for gameplay function. After all, no matter what you equip on the characters, it never changes what they are wielding. Even if you equip Lionheart on Squall, he only wields it in Ex-Mode. So in short, the shop is something totally non-existent in the "story" of the game.

  • Why does Garland never mention knocking anyone down?

  • Exdeath's sword. It just looks so er...I dunno, not sword-like. I thought it was a slab of metal at first.
    • Well, he IS primarily a mage-like character.
      • And a freakin' tree.

  • Who decided that it was a good idea for the villains to fight the same exact heroes who had defeated them before?
    • Someone who noticed that last time, they had a full party of backup? It's made pretty clear that even in the "multiple cycles of Chaos and Cosmos" war, this is pretty much the first time they've fought one-one-one, due to the requirements of Crystal-getting.
    • And who said they've already defeated the villains before? Just where in the timeline of each game the characters are grabbed from is murky at best, and the ending cinema seems to imply they're all heading off to the start of each of their games. Especially when you consider that nearly all those villains are, you know, dead after being defeated in their main game (with the exception of Golbez), and at least one of the heroes is as well.
    • So, would it be right to say that like Kingdom Hearts, these are different characters than the ones from the main games, and that the only reason they act antagonistic towards each other is because of the previous cycles of war and not their own games?
      • Maybe. The bodies are all new, provided for them by Chaos and Cosmosnote , but the souls are wandering spirits Chaos and Cosmos found. It's left ambiguous if the spirits are echoes of people yet to be, the souls of the dead, or the spirits of those from other worlds. It could be the same characters before their games began, it could be the same characters having adventures in their sleep, it could be clones the real characters are unaware of, etc. The relevant Reports are infuriatingly vague; even the wise ones in-story aren't entirely certain where they got the souls from.

  • How come Golbez is on Chaos's Side? He's clearly working for Cosmos the entire time: helping the heroes get their Crystals and all. Golbez is the most obvious double-agent ever. And also, why does he need to fight Cecil? THEY'RE ON THE SAME SIDE!!! THEY HAVE THE SAME GOAL!! And they don't just fight once — they fight like three times! There is nothing to fight about! Nothing! What's to stop Golbez from simply switching sides and kicking Chaos's face in? Is he that concerned with what side of the box art he's been placed on? This is stupid!
    • Because he's based on the game. And in the game, Golbez and Cecil are enemies until near the ending, then they become allies (though Golbez believing he is beyond redemption). And even though he may help the warriors of Cosmos, that doesn't neccesarily mean he's aligned with Chaos (Jecht also helps the warriors of Cosmos and even formerly fought for her). It's entirely possible that he was more antagonistic towards Cecil and wanted to destroy him but got redeemed in one of the past battles. Please at least do SOME research before you start trashing a character in a crossover.
    • Furthermore, Golbez (at least in Dissidia) is a textbook True Neutral character. If you fight Chaos with Golbez, Golbez even specifically says that he doesn't care for the forces of order and chaos. While he does seek atonement for his actions in the past, Golbez believes that his darkness will keep him from fully being good, yet he doesn't associate with the villains (aside from his masterful facade of "aiding" them) because they are a truly detestable lot.
    • Actually, Golbez thinks because he was originally summoned by Chaos, that he's not worthy of redemption. That's why he kept pushing Cecil away whenever he offered him a chance to join Cosmos. The guy has a major guilt complex.

  • According to the reports, Garland was such a badass he killed the summoned beasts and Omega in the world of Final Fantasy I. So when it comes to the start of that game, why can your level 3 team beat him around?
    • Maybe he was really, really, really wounded from the effort of killing Omega and all the summons, with stat-reduction curses, crippled limbs, and torn muscles galore. Fusing with himself and the Fiends brought him back to full health, which was the real source of the increase in power. Maybe his kidnapping of the Princess was an attempt to get back to full power another way?
    • Gameplay and Story Segregation, dude, Gameplay and Story Segregation.
    • Garland did all that while being used as a weapon by Onrac. He had the powers of Chaos at the time, allowing him to defeat Omega and banish it to the Rift. by the time your party in FFI comes around, he has killed you, become Chaos, created the Fiends of Chaos from the crystals of the past, and wiped his own memory. As he says at the end of FFI, he does this so that you will kill him, allowing the Fiends of Chaos to send him backward in time to where he becomes Chaos.
      • I thought Chaos was the living weapon and Garland just took his name as his own cause it sounded cool?
    • Actually Chaos was the weapon who vanquished the summons and Omega, but Garland named him after his own One-Winged Angel form.

  • Lightning uses Curasa in her Medic role. Curasa was one of the spells that Lightning never learned in her original game. It just bugs me that she can use Curasa in Dissidia.
    • And Bartz never got the Buster Sword in his original game. And his combination of moves would've been impossible in FFV. Terra can't equip swords, despite having them in her original game. Cecil sure as shit couldn't switch back to Dark Knight after he became a Paladin.

      She's there to represent the game, which means the game as a whole. She's not a carbon copy of her abilities in the original game, just like nobody else is.
    • It bugs me that you're only bugged by the fact she uses Curasa and not that she uses Odin's attacks as her own.
    • The translators probably were thinking this, since the English version has it renamed Cura.

  • Where did Cecil's whole brother complex thing come from? It's so fanservice-y and I love it, but really, it just didn't fit. It also just bugs me that I can't find the correct trope to describe it either.
    • In Final Fantasy IV, while the playable characters are a lot more developed than ever before, the game is still pretty short and low on character development compared to those that follow. Obviously Cecil (along with Kain) had the most character development in the original game as is, but imo, it would have been nicer to have a little more of it. Specifically the two things that could have been interesting to see would have been Cecil before he attacked Mysidia (you could have observed the atmosphere in Baron before the mission, controlled him during the invasion there, and more slowly seen the doubts forming in him about the king. Cecil turns good ridiculously quickly — 15 minutes into gameplay, really -?- and I found that jarring) and to see more of his thoughts on Golbez and his ancestry. Maybe there could have been a sidequest about the latter. Anyway, my point is that due to tech constraints or it simply not occurring to the developers, this is missing from the original game. I think they realized opportunities for development of Cecil's character were missed then, and decided to try and make up for it in Dissidia by giving his relationship with Golbez a more central role. It looks a bit random if you played the original game because he had no idea about Golbez being his brother until the last minute and had a very muted reaction, but still, there is more potential there than there would have been if Zemus had been put on the opposing team.
    • And to add to the above in a less tl;dr manner, the first five games (less so with Cec and Bartz, but still) all have this problem. They don't have the most interesting and developed personalities of the franchise, so it's more obvious (and potentially OOC-looking) when the developers extrapolate on some aspect of them that wasn't as defined in their original game, or totally make up a personality for them in the case of the Light Warrior. Personally I prefer this to having Zidane and Cloud recite uninventive lines that fit well with their original characterizations, but your mileage may vary.
    • There is one cutscene in 012 that Golbez, while thinking to himself, says Cecil remembers that they are brothers but can't remember that they were also enemies (because of the whole lost memories and fight to regain them thing), and since Golbez wants to walk the path to redemption, this disturbs him. You can see it as Cecil only rembembers the "good" side of Golbez, not the "bad"; it's probably why Golbez is so highly represented in his mind.

  • Why do people here consider the Alignment changes of Terra, Cloud, Tidus, and Jecht spoilers? Not only was it heavily implied that Terra was a Warrior of Chaos once in the first game, but the changes are on the bloody cover of the game.
    • Who the hell is considering it a spoiler beyond the "too obvious" type?

  • The game's gonna be out in three weeks in North America, where's the English trailer? I mean, I'm glad that Square seems to have acknowledged that we follow the Japanese news. But not everyone does, and there should have been an English trailer a while ago.
    • There has been some released videos of fights with the English voices, so I think some promotioning there is.
    • There's finally a full trailer with English voices floating around on the internet. About time...

  • How does Squall still exist if his father now, thanks to the Manikins, never even existed in the first place?
    • Same way Amy Pond continued to exist after her parents fell through the crack in her wall. Chunks have been clipped out of history without anything new scrawled in to replace 'em.
    • Because he still does. Nothing in the game indicates that anyone has ceased to exist in their own games. In fact, in the 13th cycle, Cloud, Tidus, and Squall all still remember Tifa, Yuna, and Laguna enough to recognize the manikins in their image. And it's memories of their worlds, not the 12th cycle.
    • You're right that they didn't cease to exist in their own games. Yet, in terms of the Dissidia universe and the FF worlds in said universe: they have ceased to exist. Once the 13th cycle ends, they will not return to their original worlds. Likewise, Squall presumably disappears since he no longer has a father. My guess is that it was a delayed reaction due to being in "the eye of the storm".
    • Actually, in the character descriptions, it says that all those who were killed by Manikins were brought back after the last cycle and sent back to there own worlds like the original ten due to Cosmos finally winning.

  • If being defeated by a manikin makes you Ret Goned from the War of Chaos and Cosmos, why doesn't that happen for the people defeated by Warrior of Light, if WoL is just a really high-quality manikin?
    • That is a very good question. An Anachronic Order Induced Plot Hole, perhaps? And technically speaking, if Cosmos were ever to fight, wouldn't the same deal apply for her since she's more or less the same as WoL, only better (and with the memories of Garland/Chaos' foster mother)?
    • My guess is that it's because he's a "perfect" manikin, and maybe because since he's a Cosmos warrior now, he's bound by the rules of the cycle.
      • That seems likely. I don't think the ability to negate the gods' ability to summon you is an innate ability of the manikins, but more a side effect of them not really playing by the rules of the game.
      • According to what I read on the character page, that's exactly it. They beat up the warriors so furiously, even after killing them, that Shinryu just can't get anything more out of them and therefore doesn't bother to revive them for the next time around. It's not until the war is over that they are restored and sent back home. Though that admittedly leaves out individuals like Gabranth and Shanttoto.
    • (sigh) You aren't Ret Gone*, and there's nothing special about manikins that allows them to permanently remove someone from the cycles. It's that manikins don't stop trying to kill you just because you're dead and so there isn't enough left of a warrior defeated by manikins when it comes time for purification.

  • Why did WoL seem to lose his memories of the 12th cycle if he actually survived the cycle? (He was the only Warrior of Cosmos to do so, in fact!)
    • Because they lost. The Emperor mentions to Golbez in a Report that only those who had won are permitted to keep their memories of the previous cycles.
    • If you watch closely during the cutscene in Duodecim, you'll see him faint and be cleansed by Shinryu just as the dragon is about to leave the battlefield.

  • So what happened to Prishe? All the other secret characters are given reasons for no longer taking part in the war (Shanttotto eventually decided the war was beneath her and left to research her "Ultimate Spell", Gabranth went into hiding after losing to Shanttotto and eventually landed a job as Hell's gatekeeper, and Gilgamesh is still wandering from world to world via the Rift), but what about her? Did Shinryu just decide one cycle to just send her home?
    • It's never mentioned why Prishe disappeared from the cycle, though there's several possibilities. Considering how she apparently goes off by herself fairly often, it's possible that she was simply killed by Manikins, or else her body just couldn't take so many purifications after a certain point (one of the Reports mentions that some just don't survive the process for whatever reason).
      • Scenario 000 revealed that those who can no longer give their strength or memories to Shinryu are either erased or sent away by him and not brought back into the conflict. So it's possible that she outlived her usefulness if she wasn't brought back.
      • It is revealed why Prishe disappeared. One of the earlier cycles ended when Garland killed Cosmos. With Cosmos dead (and without being imbued with Cosmos's power/crystal), all of her warriors were destroyed, too. Shantotto was apparently protected by having already left for the Rift, and the Warrior was apparently missing for a cycle or two before he revived.

  • What was up with the advertising for Duodecim claiming it would have a campaign for the Chaos warriors when it... y'know... doesn't? 000 doesn't count since it can be any five characters with no bearing on the story, and the Reports don't count since not only are they really just little snippets highlighting interesting goings-on in various cycles rather than a full cohesive story arc, you're playing Cosmos warriors in them as often as you are Chaos warriors.
    • It's advertising. In order to draw attention to the game, they highlight some aspect of the game in order to make it sound really awesome when, in reality, it doesn't really come up that often. The ads were probably referring to the Reports, even though those aren't really enough to consider a whole campaign, especially since most of them aren't that long. The disappointing part is that 012 would have been the perfect time to introduce a proper villain campaign because, y'know, the villains actually win this one, meaning that a story starring them exclusively wouldn't just end in their being killed off.
    • I'm wondering why you still bought the game when a promised feature wasn't actually in the game. Sounds like you got screwed.
      • Because it's still fun.
  • On an entirely different note, the ending music from the first game has bits of music from each character's game. For FFVI's bit, they have... Cyan's theme? Cyan isn't even in Dissidia. His theme is a great piece of music, but it hardly represents FFVI. Since Terra's the one in the game, why not play her theme?
    • Each bit of music is from the end credits theme of each game, and FF 6's is a long medley of every character theme in your party. Cyan's is around the middle, so his theme it is.
  • Kind of a minor design quibble, but did anyone else notice that Vaan's victory pose is kind of impossible? Look, the Claymore he usually uses doesn't have a crossguard to sit on, and the Tournesol only has two little fragile looking points. Why not use either a different pose or different weapons? He's got plenty to choose from.
  • I think it's been asked before, but what is the exact relationship between Garland and Chaos in the Dissidia series? In Dissidia, Garland explicitly states that he and Dissidia's Chaos are the same being, and that after the heroes defeat him he was sent back in time to become Chaos himself — as he did in Final Fantasy 1. Dissidia 012 seemingly averts this by having Chaos be an artificial bioweapon created by Cid of the Luftain hundreds of years prior to the events of Final Fantasy 1. From what I've been able to understand, Garland's monologue in Report 12 indicates that he was freed from the Garland —> Final Fantasy 1 Chaos time loop by Shinryu and brought to World B to corrupt Dissidia Chaos, who he empathized with due to the time loop in Final Fantasy 1, and that he named Dissidia Chaos after his own One-Winged Angel form. Further muddying the issue, it is stated by Penelo in Garland's 012 equipment profile that his 3rd alt. is actually what he looks like under his armour, lending credit to the Garland = Dissidia Chaos = Final Fantasy 1 Chaos theory. Another question is that if the Warrior of Light was born during the Dissidia games, how did Garland know who he was when he and Prishe came across him, but I read somewhere that Word of God stated that Garland was taken after his defeat at the hands of the Warrior, while the final cutscene sets the stage for the beginning of Final Fantasy 1.
  • Stage Destructibility! God it's awesome and fun to smash Malevolent Architecture to pieces! And you can do it to the palace of hell, the core of the planet, lunar rock formations, shrines to ancient hideous gods — almost everywhere! ...But one of the places that lacks destructible elements is the MS Prima Vista... which is a stage prop castle. I can smash up the crystal world at the end of creation, but not a cheap fake castle? Buh?
    • While we're at it, what does the MS in MS Prima Vista stand for, anyway?
      • Mobile Suit Prima Vista?
      • In real life ship terminology, "MS" stands for "Motor Ship", so given the setting, here it likely stands for "Mist Ship".
  • The names of the Manikin versions of the Final Fantasy VIII cast. Squall's Manikin is called "Transient Lion", and Ultimecia's is called "Transient Witch". So why isn't Laguna's Manikin called "Transient Wardrobe"?
  • So why does Cecil shift between Dark Knight and Paladin? I see it's a nice moveset, but really it has no basis in the original game and pretty much all his Dark Knight attacks are made up except Soul Eater. What I would have expected would be Cecil having Gabranth's EX Mode dependent fighting style. Have Dark Knight as his base class and Paladin as his easy to access EX Mode. After all, Kain's EX Mode is his Paladin equivalent class with the same-story based reason for obtaining it. That kind of implies Kain's EX Mode is the equivalent of Cecil's base class.
    • Because it's cool?
      • Beyond that I can think of a few reasons. 1. Cecil is only a dark knight for a very short time in the FF 4 series. For 4/5ths of 4 and all of after years, Cecil is a paladin. It's a critical part of his character and not a "power up" so to speak. Kain's Holy Dragoon thing only comes in for the finale of After Years, having spent all of 4, and most of After Years as just a regular Dragoon. The Paladin stuff isn't a major part of his character. 2. In Dissidia one, they had the hard task of diversifying a cast of all pretty much the same type of character. FF main heroes tend to be sword wielding magic users, and Cecil being able to shift fighting styles was something they could do to give him a unique playstyle. Kain (and much of the new 012 cast) doesn't have that problem. He's a spear fighter, something new to the game. If anything making his Paladin abilties his EX mode was a stretch just to give him an Ex mode. 3. Cecil had been a Paladin for 17 years before Kain became one. He's got alot more experience and knows how to use holy power more than Kain, so in essence stuff that would be base level stuff for Cecil would be EX mode stuff for Kain.
  • Admittedly I know practically nothing about Final Fantasy XIII (having never played it) so I'm a little confused by the conflict between the Warrior and Lightning. I just don't understand the apparent connection they seem to have. Does the Warrior remind Lightning of someone she knows from her world or what?
    • I think it's because he reminds her of Snow in some way.

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