Headscratchers: Death Battle

Remember not to ask things like "Why did <character> do <action> instead of <preferred action> in <time>?". In the second Q&A, Wizard specifically states the fights are not representative of who actually wins the Death Battle; the winner is decided well beforehand through research into the combatants. The fights are purely for entertainment purposes.
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    Akuma vs Shang Tsung 
  • Why was Shin Akuma and Oni not mentioned yet M. Bison had his Final Bison form?
    • I think Oni is considered a separate character with a different personality. Even though he used to be Akuma he isn't a transformation he can use anytime. As for Shin Akuma, it's not a transformation either, that's just him not holding back.
    • They may have reasoned that since Akuma did not need either of those forms (really, anyone who knows both characters could see Tsung had no chance) they wouldn't bother mentioning them, since that suggests that he's going to show it in the battle when there would be no reason to.

    Rogue vs Wonder Woman 
  • Why did Wiz and Boomstick match Wonder Woman to Rogue? Wonder Woman is an iconic character in the DC Universe and is part of their premier trio of superheroes (alongside Superman and Batman), while Rogue is nowhere near as iconic (even though she IS quite popular) and is tied more to the X-Men than the general Marvel Universe. Also, in terms of powers, Wonder Woman has Super Strength as one of her superpowers while Rogue's main power is absorbing other people's powers, which is why she even HAS Super Strength in the first place. And lastly, the trivia page mentioned that both of them wear oversexualized outfits, but Rogue's traditional costume, while skintight, is in no way revealing like Wonder Woman's. Considering all of these, wouldn't it have made more sense to match Wonder Woman to Ms. Marvel (or even She-Hulk) instead?
    • Most match ups are voted by fans, with the possible exception of Starscream and Rainbow Dash. Also judging how iconic a character is can be considered more opinion than fact, but they are still both quite popular characters.
    • Also as shown by The Most Common Super Power, you don't need to be revealing to have fanboys get involved in Rule34.
    • The Rogue they used and that many (I won't argue most as that would be hard to quantify) is the one from the 90's comics and cartoons. They very rarely mentioned Carol Danvers and a lot of people didn't know that she'd absorbed flight and super strength since every other power she absorbed went away naturally relatively quickly. Add on that Wonder Woman is rarely (and I mean by her parent company DC as much as fans) afforded the respect that she should rate as one of the Big Three. She's instead generally treated much like Green Lantern or Martian Manhunter as just a member of the team.

    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles Battle Royale 
  • What is with Wizard's hate for Michelangelo?
    • Judging from what Wizard said, it could be because he uses Nunchaku, which aren't really weapons at all, that he's the least likely to actually be able to use such a complicated weapon, and Wizard doesn't think he really deserves the victories he has as a result of this.
    • Apparently the actor who plays Wiz actually likes Michelangelo, so its probably just meant to be that Wiz (the character) is an intellectual snob who finds the loud and Book Dumb Mikey annoying.
    • Still, the criticism seemed unnecessarily harsh and loses it entertainment value to any who marginally likes (or even those who just barely tolerate) Mikey.

    Kratos vs Spawn 
  • Kratos may have killed gods, but he can still die in very easy ways, especially during gameplay. In fact he once died from falling off a mountain, so this lack of immortality would have made him easily killed by Spawn's fatality move. This means that no matter how powerful Kratos is, Spawn survived and regenerated from all his injuries before the end of the match, while Kratos didn't recover from his injuries due to his mortality. Ultimately, Spawn could survive the fight longer than Kratos could. Also, Spawn can survive being impaled through the chest with a holy weapon; it happens multiple times in his canon. Because Spawn wasn't decapitated, he didn't die.
  • The assessment that Kratos does not know that Spawn needs to be decapitated. Maybe Kratos doesn't know that, but he beheads his enemies often enough, it seems reasonable he'd at least try it.
    • Even if he did try it, Spawn would never give him the chance to use the one and only weapon he has in a fatal manner. It's the only weapon that can physically harm him. Once he knows that he'll do his best to dispose of it and Kratos is thereby SOL

    Digdug vs Bomberman 
  • Digdug's secondary method of attack, crushing his enemies with underground rocks, isn't mentioned. Why not?
    • It's implied by the line about manipulating the environment to his advantage.
  • Why was Bomberman allowed to have a Rooey in the battle? Sure, it didn't help him much, but doesn't that go against the no-outside-help rule?
    • Rooey is considered more of a power-up. It was to show how Digdug would defeat superior enemies by his digging ability and ambushes. Also if it wasn't used, Bomberman fans would ask why Rooeys were not used. At the same time, Mario wasn't allowed to use Yoshi but then again Yoshi is not only a fully fleshed-out character but is able to fight without assistance. Also Batman wasn't allowed to use his Bat-Jet or Batmobile and Spider-Man does borrow Iron-Man's vehicles sometimes, but that would have been too awkward for a fist-fight.

    Vegeta vs Shadow 
  • Shadow's chaos control ability is described as not being useful in battle and shown only to teleport others. However in Sonic Adventure 2 Battle (vs mode), Sonic Heroes (in team blast and as Metal Sonic's attack), and Shadow the Hedgehog (in boss battles)- Chaos Control can be used in combat by freezing or slowing down time, allowing Shadow to attack his enemy as they are frozen.
    • A few explanations: A) Wiz and Boomstick didn't consider it canon B) Wiz and Boomstick didn't think it would matter in a fight, so they didn't mention it, or C) Wiz and Boomstick can't always research everything a character was in or was a part of. They may have genuinely missed something here.
  • Why didn't Shadow win after he went super? he could have teleported Vegeta into the sun. Additionally, no dragon ball character has physically moved a heavenly body...
    • It's unknown how far away Chaos Control can send someone. Also Shadow didn't know Vegeta could survive on the moon or other planets, that's why Shadow sent Vegeta underwater or to the moon. By the time he had the chance to do it again, he was low on energy. Besides that's a cheap way to win, considering the fact that Shadow has never done that before.
    • Additionally, the hosts note that Vegeta has is capable of taking a prolonged beating from enemies that outclass him by a wide margin.

    Mario vs Sonic 
  • As the Mario vs Sonic match was focusing so much on the power-ups, some of Sonic's abilities were ignored. His Light Speed Attack and Homing Attack were not used and his wind attacks like the Tornado Jump (from Sonic Heroes) and Sonic Wind (from Sonic Adventure 2 and Sonic Battle) were not mentioned. His newest attack- Sonic Boost (which allows Sonic to charge into his opponents) also is ignored.
    • If fans are unsure of if a character deserved to win or if the rules of Death Battle are inconsistent among the episodes then it could upset some fans.
    • If they were used, Mario would have died very quickly. Wiz and Boomstick wanted to nerf Sonic a little to make the fight interesting. That still doesn't mean they didn't take those into account when determining the winner, though.
  • Why were Mario´s other powers ignored ? If we remove the power-ups he still is strong enough to lift a fortress, dodge cannonballs, endure being blasted into space, perform the same decapitating kick that Peach did, extensive pyrokinesis and the RPG badges. These powers would have been very decisive in the match´s outcome, so how come they were ignored ?
    • Because if Mario was allowed more abilities, so would Sonic (see above headscratcher). I'm not sure how they (Mario's ignored powers) would have been very decisive, though;I haven't heard of those things.
  • Sonic could not swim during the fight or the character analysis, despite more-or-less having learned how to in Sonic Colors and was able to survive off of air bubbles or recover with springs like in Sonic 1 or Sonic 2. Why wasn't this mentioned?
    • Because Sonic's fear and inability to swim is more iconic than him learning how to do what you said. If Sonic didn't start dying once he got into the lake, people might have been confused.
  • At some point in the battle, there's a Freeze-Frame Bonus in which Mario uses the Tanooki suit to turn into a statue. ...Why didn't Boomstick and Wizard mention the Tanooki suit if they were going to use it in the battle?
    • The Tanooki Suit only allows Mario to fly, tail-whip and turn invincible, but his other power-ups can do similar things. Wiz mentioned in some interviews that the research and status part of the video can be longer but the hosts don't want it to be too long, otherwise it would be a waste of time. They mentioned at the ending that because both fighters have power-ups that would negate each other- the outcome was determined by their basic skills. They also mentioned that using lesser known power-ups would yield a similar result as there are just too many used by both fighters to put in a single fight.

    Rainbow Dash vs Starscream 
  • For those who don't believe that Rainbow Dash can create explosions, there was such a move that debuted after the Death Battle episode. Fans dubbed it the Sonic-Rain-Nuke. Here's the clip.
  • How was Rainbow Dash able to hurt Starscream?
    • The answer is provided in the battle. Rainbow Dash's bucking with her hind legs doesn't even scuff Starscream's paint job, so she uses lightning boltsnote , a tornadonote , and ultimately redirects Starscream's own missile salvo back into him. In addition the Sonic Rainboom, in Friendship is Magic, has shown itself able to split giant boulders apart with its shock-wave even from a great distance away, or demolish entire buildings in direct impact.
  • The methods used to calculate Rainbow Dash's speed are suspect. That graphic didn't act like a mach cone, and she wasn't producing a sonic boom at that point, or contrails, or other things that happen when one breaks the sound barrier. Technically, she doesn't make one while in the Sonic Rainboom state either, but that can be explained as a property of the Sonic Rainboom, which also allows her to basically ignore momentum and G-forces. However, even if the exact numbers used in the Death Battle are inaccurate, Rainbow's flying skills and agility will easily overwhelm someone as clumsy as Starscream.
  • How come Ben and Chad refuse to do a Death Battle with characters like Naruto and Luffy because their series weren't over, yet they used G4 Rainbow Dash while the second season was starting out?
    • Action shows are a wee-bit different than Little Girl's shows. Plus, after some research, it was clear that Rainbowdash's current form already vastly outmatched Starscream's set-in-stone G1 form. They only really need one character's final form if said form is already weaker than the opponent's current form. That being said, they may hold off using a character again, like Rainbowdash, if the next match up proves to be way too close (in this case the next episode in either franchise's series could change the outcome).

    Doomguy vs Master Chief 
  • Although Doomguy's massive amount of weapons gives him superior firepower, Master Chief has Regenerating Health (because of his futuristic armor) and his plasma shield. This means that Doomguy's offense is countered by Master Chief's defenses. Doomguy, who rarely hides behind cover, is using a more primitive armor and so is more vulnerable.
  • Despite lacking in area of effect, the Spartan Laser had a near-instant travel time after being charged up, while the BFG 9000 needed to impact something first.
  • Although Doomguy (who can run 57mph) is technically faster than Master Chief (at least 50mph), it isn't fast enough to make a significant difference.
    • The problem there isn't just numbers. Doomguy can sprint at nearly 60 mph and still fire his weapons without burden, whereas Master Chief is restricted to a light jog if he wants to shoot.
  • Doomguy might have had a somewhat unfair but canon-based advantage for his weapons as he brought more ammo to the fight. I.E, his rocket launcher has only 2-4 rockets available when first acquired, but Doomguy could find and carry up to 50 or even 100 rockets ingame. This means that in the fight, due to gameplay differences, Doomguy have maximum ammo while Master Chief needed to find and pick up weapons, being unable to stock up on their supply. This is why Doomguy was firing dozens of rockets while Master Chief ran out of ammo for his rifle. According to the experts, this is credited to Doomguy's experimental backpack.
  • Anybody wondering why the Unmaker was brought up if they were going to bring up that it couldn't The Master Chief because he's not a demon, it's because the fans would likely complain if it wasn't. The Death Battle hosts take into account any technicality, like how Kratos' weapons are technically not holy or unholy and so is not lethal to Spawn or how the Spirit Bomb cannot be used as a weapon against heroes like Superman.
    • Interestingly, however, the Doom Bible (where information about the Unmaker originates) says nothing about it feeding only on demonic energy, instead saying it feeds on human souls.
  • And as noted several times before, the animation segment sorta cheated — you can't through grenades through your own bubble shield.
    • There is actually a possible scenario for this. He could have thrown the plasma grenade just outside of the shield's increasing radius, activated the bubble shield and let the shield itself 'lob' the grenade over to Doomguy. Sure, it is a really improbable and impractical way of doing such a thing in the heat of a fight, but then we remember that Master Chief was Born Lucky.

    Eggman vs Wily 
  • Many fans wanted to see Zero in Wily's army instead of Bass. Although both are Robot Masters and both have betrayed Wily multiple times, Bass is obviously more of a villain than Zero, who teams up with Megaman more frequently. Putting both of them in the match would have been unfair.
  • E-102 Gamma and E-123 Omega are not in Eggman's army obviously because they defected, even though Eggman created them. Infact, Omega is never seen under Eggman's control in the games.
    • The E-121 Phi robots are similar to the other Metal versions of the Sonic characters in terms of combat style (like Silver Sonic, Shadow Androids or Metal Knuckles). Also Phi and Gemerl's designs are from Emerl's design, not Eggman's original design. Beisdes, Gemerl's copy abilities are similar to Metal Sonic's anyways.
  • Tails Doll's combat abilities are unknown, despite being ABSOLUTELY EVIL.
  • Even if Scratch and Grounder were not used, Eggman has similar idiotic and useless robot duos (like Decoe and Bocoe from Sonic X and Orbot and Cubot from Sonic Colors). So even though Scratch and Grounder aren't from the main series, similar minions would have been used instead.
  • Only Eggman's ROBOTS that he created were allowed to fight, not his allies. This means some bosses like Chaos were not used.
  • Wily's Sheepman wasn't the only stupid-looking character that fans criticized (like Plantman or Springman). Like Sheepman, they are still dangerous despite their stupid nature.
  • In the games, E-101 Beta can automatically deflect or dodge projectiles and is only vulnerable after attacking. Magnetman's magnetshield does not disable robots, it only attracts them.
    • However, Beta's weakness was that he couldn't defend behind him as well, so Magnet Man destroying him made sense in that light.
  • Wily's army has been defeated by Megaman many times, mainly because of Megaman's copying abilities. Metal Sonic's copying abilities are more advanced than Megaman or Bass and even without the copying ability, Metal Sonic is still powerful offensively, defensively and is FASTER THAN SONIC.
    • Although Bass had copying abilities, he can only use it by taking the weapons of his enemies. Metal Sonic's superior speed would have allowed him to steal the weapons before Bass ever could (as seen with Napalmman and Silver Sonic's chaos emerald).
  • There are many reasons for the doctors' different armies.
    • Eggman uses more robots per level than Wily, but not all of the robots are as well equipped (like how not all of the Egg Pawns have guns).
    • The armies are to face their specific enemies. Eggman's army has more close combat robots because of Sonic's close combat fighting style. Wily's robots need to protect themselves from Megaman's blasters while still being able to fight back, which is why Wily has many defensive and long ranged units.
    • In some games like Sonic Adventure, some of Eggman's robots are used as PLATFORMS for Sonic's homing attacks. These 'platforms' don't attack.
    • Eggman's robots are infamous for being stupid, and their in-game AI is slow and ineffective.
    • Eggman is the boss at the end of most Sonic levels, while the Robot Masters are the bosses of Megaman's levels. This means Wily has more varieties of boss level robots, giving him better and more choices for a fight.
    • Many of Eggman's strongest Badniks are clones of other sonic characters (Silver Sonic, Metal Sonic, Mecha Sonic, Metal Knuckles, Egg Robo, Death Egg Robot). This means Eggman has less creativity and variety for his strongest warriors, and since they were designed to fight fast Sonic characters, they aren't designed to face a variety of skills.
  • Why didn't they just call this fight a draw (like the "Goomba vs Koopa Troopa" and "Justin Bieber vs Rebecca Black" episodes)? They shouldn't have counted Metal Sonic as the "winner" since he wasn't the main combatant. And plus, BOTH Eggman and Wily died at the end after Metal Sonic got that robot virus, so it shouldn't have counted Metal Sonic as the winner!
    • Because Metal Sonic was the winner. In the two draw fights, both main combatants killed each other, so no one won. Here, since Metal Sonic killed both sides, he is counted as a third party combatant and is therefore capable of winning.
    • But third party combatants shouldn't be counted as "winners", as Metal Sonic was originally from Dr. Eggman's side, and then he was infected by Robenenza virus, then went rogue, and then killed both Team Eggman and Team Wily. Since both got hoisted by their own petards (in this case, Eggman's was Metal Sonic, and Wily's was the Robenenza virus), it should've been counted as a draw! I don't think upstaging someone during the fight by killing the two combatants should qualify the third party as the winner!
      • It's because he won in such an epic, over-the-top fashion that the hosts felt he earned it.
    • But just because he won in an epic fashion, does not mean it automatically declares him "winner"! They should've just went, "This battle is a draw."
      • ... Because it's funny?
    • You seem to be under the impression that your personal preferences as to what should happen constitute rules that every series has to follow. There is no rule of Death Battle stating that a third-party combatant cannot be a winner; the closest thing they have would be ignoring outside interference, but this battle was an exception to that anyway. Metal Sonic was the last surviving combatant, so he wins. Simple as that.

    Zelda vs Peach 
  • Why did they treat Zelda like she's the same person in every game yet consider Link's in any incarnations throughout the series? The answer? Each Zelda he same powers in each game, except when she was Tetra or Sheik, so they stated that anything Zelda could do in those forms, she could do normally, so they combined them. Link was different throughout his games, at least in terms of abilities and powers, so they had more to combine.
  • Despite claiming that Zelda would still have Sheik's abilities, this didn't appear to impact the fight, as Zelda wasn't using ninja-like speed or martial arts. Also, Melee and Brawl (where Zelda's powers in this fight were taken from) show clearly that transforming into Shiek drastically changes Zelda's fighting style and abilities.
    • As they said in the video, Sheik is nothing more than a disguise. She only vanishes and plays music in canon.
      • She also displays ninja-like acrobatics in canon. Besides, they clearly used Smash Bros a basis for both characters abilities, yet Zella used none of Shiek's alternate moves.
  • Why did they give Peach every ability she's had and handed Zelda exclusively Super Smash Bros attacks? If Peach gets non-canon abilities like Mega Empress Peach and they're going to refer to the Zelda in the cartoons, why was she not given anything from say... Wand Of Gamelon? As was stated in the post-battle, Peach has few lethal moves; she throws turnips, hits people with her parasol, but she needed a Finishing Move to make this a Death Battle. Secondly, Wiz wanted an excuse to geek out with force equations and this was his only opportunity to do this.
    • They probably didn't want to use non-Nintendo sources. The CD-i games weren't made by Nintendo.
  • Why does Peach get a move she only had in the sports games when Mario and Yoshi didn't? Were they trying to go against expectations by digging around and giving her extra stuff that they didn't give Mario and Yoshi. It comes down to availability and impressiveness. Peach... doesn't do all that much. She's given a lot less to work with, her most impressive stuff is from the sports games and there isn't enough main canon of her to prove her actions are out-of-continuity. Mario and Yoshi have enough canon appearances to make inclusion of the sports games unnecessary, have more impressive non-sports stuff, and have enough canon appearances to force the discarding of some sports games' abilities as not-canon due to lack of other appearance (much like they did Mario's Paper Mario limit-break stuff and innate Firehand). Finally for Peach Its MARIO-VERSE. There is no consistency of abilities, statistics, or armament, only Rule of Fun. Any attempt at nailing down anything resembling a definitive ability set is going to involve unreasonable amounts of finagling.
    • As for Zelda; she doesn't do much outside of Brawl or Melee. In Ocarina of Time we don't see her fight as ninja; the only fighting is the paralyzing beam she used on Ganon. In Wind Waker, we don't see her fight as a pirate; only with the light bow which does make an appearance in the fight. If they used non-canon sources for one character, they must for another. The difference is, the non-canon sources for Peach are significantly more canon than the non-canon sources for Zelda. The ones used for Peach were official Nintendo games and part of major a Mario series, with all the quality of production thereof, whereas the non-canon sources for Zelda are products of American cartoon writers and the Philips CD-i, with little official input and less formal approval. Both are non-canon, but one is canon minus 1, whereas the other is canon minus twelve. Comparing them is comparing apples and oranges- both are non-canon/fruit, but they are very different kinds of non-canon/fruit.
    • Frankly, the Mario series doesn't have a defined canon while the Zelda series does, so it's pointless arguing what is and isn't canon in the Mario universe. As for the soccer kicks for Mario, Luigi, and Yoshi, they wouldn't have worked on their opponents.
  • Why didn't Wiz or Boomstick bring up all the kickass stuff Peach does in the Nintendo Power comics. In that comic she actually saves Mario and un-kidnaps herself. Why wasn't this mentioned? It could've given her victory a lot more credibility.

    Thor vs Raiden 
  • Why does Thor block Raiden's electric attacks with Mjlonir if electricity can't hurt him?
    • Likely because Thor is arrogant and wanted to show Raiden that he couldn't even touch him unless he allowed it.
    • Although immune to the damage, the electricity could make him flinch. Also both combatants are unaware of each other's powers, so Thor might not have known what kind of attacks Raiden was using.

    Link vs Cloud 
  • Why didn't Wiz and Boomstick have Cloud use his Fusion Swords? The same could be said for Link's Fierce Deity form or Biggoron Sword. These are not the weapons they use in Smash Bros/Dissidia, nor are they the weapons they're most commonly attributed to. The same thing happened with Mario vs Sonic, too. Once you started getting into the more obscure power-ups, it all sort of evened out with the power-levels going into absurd levels, to the point the fight stops being about skill and starts becoming more about the obscure over-powered techniques... That would rarely change a straight up fight in the end anyway. Bottom line, they went with the gear Cloud and Link are both most comfortable with. Cloud with the Buster Sword, Link with the Master Sword. Going into excruciating detail with swords they weren't going to use... Seems a bit overkill even for this show. The experts look at the entire canon as a whole and use abilities that are consistent throughout the canon.
    • Considering the Fierce Deity Mask wouldn't have worked, and the Biggoron Sword would have just given him a thinner version of Clouds sword, that sounds like a load. As does trying to portray the fighting games as the canon depictions - just, what? Besides, Link doesn't have half of the stuff he used in the fight in Smash, so whats the justification for that?
  • Link has fought against Ganondorf and Demise, who both are powerful in both strength and magical abilities. Link can block their attacks and survive a few slashes even when they wield their own legendary swords (and this is WITHOUT the Golden Gauntlets). Link's experience against superhuman swordsmen helped him defeat Cloud. If Cloud was allowed to use more abilities or weapons, so would Link. Even though Cloud is superhuman, Link's magical weapons would have countered it.
    • Ganondorf and Demise aren't in the same galaxy of strength as Cloud is. Cloud could match Sephiroth blow for blow with equal strength, and that guy cut a skyscraper in half.
  • Neither of them have shown the amount of speed or reaction time on Clouds level. Sure, Link has Z-targeting, but it's still not fast enough for a bullet timer, and it's mostly a gameplay gimmick. On the other hand, Cloud's games are turn-based Role Playing Games, meaning that just one attack from him takes an entire 'turn' to activate or rest from. This means that although Cloud appears fast, it's only because of the combos in his attack, but as the RPGs show- Cloud is vulnerable after attacking. Even the other superhuman combatants cannot spam their attacks because they don't have the stamina for it.
    • That would be why we have the movie, in which he isn't stopping after every attack.
  • How was Cloud stunned by Link's boomerang when he had a ribbon, which protects from all status ailmentsnote ? Indeed it nullified the freeze effect of the ice arrow.
    • It just threw him off balance since he didn't expect it. "Stuns" likely meant more paralysis than being taken by surprise. The boomerang is strong enough to kill giant skull spiders bigger than him. If you got hit in the back by something that strong, you'd be unconscious at best. Cloud's superhuman strength kept him up, but he was still disoriented enough to give Link time to retrieve his sword. Plus, Link has fast reflexes and the Clawshot is rather quick, so the sequence we saw might have been slower than how it would've really happened.
    • The Ribbon only protects against certain status ailments. Burns aren't on the list.
  • It's said that one reason Link won was that the Master Sword's anti-evil powers were effective against Cloud's Jenova cells. Now, I haven't played FFVII for a long time, but wasn't it a big twist in that game that Cloud was never actually a member of SOLDIER, and thus shouldn't have any Jenova cells?
    • He was not a member of SOLDIER, but he did have Jenova cells, because Hojo used the survivors of the Nibelheim massacre to try to "clone" Sephiroth. It is, however, a questionable interpretation that the Master Sword would be effective against Jenova cells. Revive doesn't kill Cloud, does it?
  • Why exactly is Cloud "not the brightest fighter"?
    • Link and his years of puzzle-solving skills and ability to exploit weaknesses simply beats Cloud's strategy of overpowering his foes. In the games, Cloud is a turn based fighter with sword attacks, magic etc. and Link is real time looking for the weak spot.
  • Z targetting is outside help because it is, in-universe, the fairies helping him. Why does it count?
    • Because Twilight Princess shows him using it before meeting Midna.
    • But then in that case, why wasn't Dissidia's L-button lock used for Cloud, which works in a functionally similar way?
  • The golden gauntlets and the indestructible shield are completely contradictory. One appears in Ocarina of Time, one appears in Skyward sword.
    • The hosts state that the Link in the battle is a Composite Character of all the Links. This is to prevent complaints like "That was MM Link! Oo T Link wouldn't lose!" or visa versa.
    • Why the hosts say that Link can block powerful blows like the ones Cloud uses? If you try to block an Iron Knuckle, they will hit through the shield and the gauntlets and Cloud hits a hell of a lot harder than the Iron Knuckles.
    • Gameplay and Story Segregation; If the shield could block in the game everything, it would be a gamebreaker. Furthermore, the shield doesn't break when hit by an Iron Knuckles and the force is negated by the Golden Gauntlets, as explained in the vid.
    • There's two missing factors still. One, Cloud is shown in Advent Children to have enough strength to easily split through large chunks of reinforced masonry, rebar, and steel, and force needed to do that effortlessly is never mentioned by Wiz or Boomstick. His Omnislash (both the regular, and then Version 5) was used to defeat Sephiroth, a master swordsman who can swing his sword fast enough to hit multiple times with one swing, was able to parry and dodge Cloud's strike blow for blow. Not even he's able to react fast enough to those attacks from Cloud.
    • Even if we assume the Hylian Shield is indestructible that doesn’t mean Link is. Cloud’s blows are at the very least equivalent to an Iron Knuckle or Darknut (They can destroy stone pillars, Cloud can easily cut through steel), both of whose attacks can knock Link over and damage him because the force of the attack is too strong, even if the shield is undamaged. This isn’t like Captain America’s shield that absorbs the kinetic energy of impacts. Finishing Touch should also have been able to get through, as a shield cannot block a tornado. And as mentioned above Cloud’s speed (especially with Omnislash Version 5, which can also get behind Link and break his Z-Target) should prevent the Shield from being an absolute defense.
  • Why is the stacked so heavily in Link's favor? They give Link the Composite Character treatment, including the experience of all Link’s, which is not canon, as well as the Pegasus Boots which are not enough of a staple to be included (the consistent and fair Link arsenal should be equal to the one he uses in the Smash series) and he has an incredibly powerful sword. On the other hand, they give Cloud a subpar materia setup and his most basic sword as opposed to his more powerful and versatile Fusion Sword. They also neglect Cloud’s Dissidia abilities (L-button lock which is equal to Z-Targeting and Omnislash Version 5 which Cloud can use even if he didn’t have the Fusion Sword), the Dissidia characters literally being the same people as the ones in the Final Fantasy series. They seem willing to go all over Link’s extended history to pick out the best elements of him to create a version far beyond what he actually is but for some reason they cannot do Cloud justice when all they have to do is watch a single movie.

    Batman vs Spider-Man 
  • Batman fans believe that if Batman had prepared himself then he would have used better choices for gadgets against Spider-Man. However Spider-Man has faced this problem before- gadget villains Mysterio and The Chameleon tried to use weapons designed to defeat Spider-Man, yet Spider-Man won thanks to his spider-sense protecting him from the gadgets.
    • Also Spider-Man has been able to use a variety of gadgets facing his enemy's weakness (something that Batman does against supervillains and the Justice League). For instance, Spider-Man created an acid to burn through Rhino's armor or a rubber suit against Electro's electricity. This justifies the claim that if Spidey had prep time he could still win. Also it is unknown exactly how both fighters would prepare for each other and using weapons that canonically they never use would had made this fight confusing to fans.
    • Outside of the Avengers and Justice League universes, Spider-Man faces more powerful and superhuman villains (Doc Oct, Green Goblin, Rhino, Venom). Most of Batman's villains are ordinary street thugs with mental disorders (Penguin, Joker, Two-Face, Black Mask), and Batman has experience using the weaknesses of his enemies with superpowers (when fighting Bane, Batman always cuts the Venom tubes).
    • Spider-Man fights against Electro and Shocker, who use lethal amounts of electricity. Batman's taser is too weak to be lethal to a NORMAL human, so Spidey could easily shrug it off.
      • It should be noted that Shocker, despite the name, does not use electricity. He uses highly compressed air blasts, aka "shockwaves".
    • Like in the comics, Spider-Man is quick to adapt to a new enemy's fighting style. Batman began reusing weapons which Spider-Man could counter, like redirecting the explosive batarang at the end of the fight.
    • And as the experts mentioned, Spider-Man survived lethal explosives at point blank. Batman has mostly non-lethal explosives but for his lethal explosives, Spider-Man could survive them and still fight.
    • Batman's armor is lightweight, even his heaviest common armor has to be light and weak to allow him to be agile. The armor used is the Dark Knight style armor, which is much heavier than his armor in the 1990s tv series but still light enough to make him avoid gunmen. Actually, early Batman comics had him wear little to no armor at all. Even with heavy armor, Batman can be injured and potentially killed by superhumans (Killer Croc and Bane, both having strength similar to Spider-Man, could inflict lethal injuries to a fully armored Batman).
      • Spider-Man has defeated armored enemies before, like The Rhino or some depictions of The Green Goblin, Scorpion and Shocker. Spider-Man's strength allows him to hurt armored enemies.
      • Spiderman is much stronger than Killer Croc or Bane. Those two are about as strong as the Kingpin, maybe a little stronger, and if Spiderman is not holding back he can and has pulverized the Kingpin. Spiderman is strong enough to hold up support a collapsing multi-story building, throw trucks and tanks, and once knocked out a Tyrannosaurus Rex with one punch. Spidey would murder both of them as surely as he murdered Batman.
    • Batman's martial art is more skilled than Spider-Man, who has no formal training. However Spider-Man's agility, strength and spidey-sense has allowed him to fight similar martial artists evenly (ex. Kraven the Hunter, Captain America and Wolverine).
      • Still many fans cannot accept the outcome due to Batman's status as a Memetic Badass. But when you consider the fact that Spider-Man has defeated the badasses Punisher and Wolverine, then defeating Batman is very possible.
      • Spiderman actually has trained in martial arts, but not to the extent Batman has. He was formally trained by Shang-Chi who invented a martial art explicitly for him ("the Way of the Spider"), and he's probably had tips from the likes of Cap, Wolverine and others over the years. Most importantly, he has lots of fighting experience and fights guys tougher than himself much more often than Batman does.
    • Spider-Man is also an expert at using the environment around him as a weapon, throwing heavy objects like parts of buildings or boulders with his web. If this was used in the fight it would be devastating against the lightly armored Batman.
    • Despite having Spidey Sense, Batman could still hit Spider-Man with A FEW of his attacks. The Spidey-Sense doesn't always activate and sometimes it doesn't react fast enough to save Spidey. However as Spider-Man became more cautious later in the fight, he was able to dodge more effectively. It is Spider-Man's cocky personality that made him vulnerable at the beginning on the roof.
      • This can be easily explained. The spider sense was activating, but wasn't specific enough. It tells him what danger is and where it's coming from, doesn't always inform him what the danger IS. One comic it activated by a guy walking by him with a gun in his coat. He knew the guy somehow was dangerous, but not why. Batman's exploding Batarang may of still of triggered the sense, but Spider-Man assumed it's just a sharp object, not because it is a explosive.
  • Batman's feat of defeating the Justice League had little impact on this fight's outcome because Batman did not use his default gadgets to take out the Justice League. Batman researched his friends for several months and developed gadgets specifically designed for them. Since Batman was not allowed to research Spider-Man and had to use his basic weapons, Batman was vulnerable. As seen in the Justice League franchise, some villains like Parasite or Darkseid are so powerful that Batman alone has never been able to defeat him with his normal weapons, so a superhuman like Spider-Man would be similarly difficult.
    • Also if Batman is allowed to prep for Spiderman then Spidey is allowed to prep for Bat's. Depending on the incarnation and time period, that could mean Spidey is limited to what he could cook up in school or at his house, or he has access to the advanced tech in Stark Tower (where he one lived) or Horizon Labs (where he worked). He's also used to fighting opponents who are brilliant scientists with ridiculous technology and resources, and is such a genius in his own right. Not saying Batman would lose a prep war, but it could be a very complex battle.
  • While Batman has a versatile arsenal of tools in the Utility Belt, Spider-Man is able to be very creative with his webs. Spider-Man can produce sticky traps, parachutes, can throw large rocks and cars with his web and can create a bulletproof shield made only of web. He can also mix chemicals into his webbing like rubber to be electric resistant or acid to burn through armor, though he only does this when prepared to fight some enemies (i.e. Electro's electric attacks and Rhino's armor).
    • There is a common misconception that Spider-Man's web is fragile. The truth is multiple shots of web can tie down most opponents, even Hulk and Rhino. A single shot of web can be broken, but only by someone with superhuman strength or a sharp blade. But normal humans, even ones as strong as the obese Kingpin, cannot escape being entangled in one or two shots of web, so it is accurate that Batman would need more time to escape the webbing at the end (which is made of about a dozen web shots).
  • Could someone tell me in what issue Spider-Man was denied entry into the Justice League? I'm pretty sure that the cover we saw was just fanart.
    • This one. Nothing on the internet indicates it's fanart, and two websites have told me "yes, it's canon".

    Blanka vs Pikachu 
  • According to the Death Battle, here are the predicted stats of Ash's Pikachu based on evidence from the canons and the EV training from early seasons.
    • HP 182 (Below Average for most Pokemon)
    • Attack 144 (Average)
    • Defense 108 (Below Average)
    • Special At. 123 (Average though high for a normal Pikachu)
    • Special Def. 80 (Below Average)
    • Speed 291 (Above Average, mostly from fighting Sparrows in the first episode)
  • Although Blanka was trained by Dan Hibiki, much of his fighting style is based on his survivalist lifestyle. Poor training had little effect on Blanka's skill in this sense, beside Dan might be a joke character but he still is a martial artist and even poor training can be helpful.
    • Since Pikachu is so light and small, he had to use his speed and electricity as his weapons. As Blanka is already agile and resistant to electric eel electricity, Pikachu could not defeat Blanka's power.
  • Why was Blanka treated as a Pokemon? He is very much a human who gained the power to give off electric charges. He really shouldn't have been given any resistance to electricity or especially not steel type moves. Along the same lines, why was voltage not mentioned? Pikachu gives off electric charges in the millions of volts and electric eels give one off more akin to 500. This wasn't even mentioned at all though.
    • Blanka is resistant to electricity, otherwise the electric eels that he EATS would have killed him. They didn't call Blanka a pokemon, but he is without a doubt an electric user, and as shown with Raiden and Thor, many characters who use electricity are resistant to voltage.
    • Blanka eats electric eels which as mentioned have around 500 volts of electricity . Pikachu releases electricity in a billion volts (equal to a real lightning bolt). If that difference is applied than Blanka’s resistance means nothing. Pokemon seem to have something innate in their biology that makes them correspond to one or two of eighteen types and automatically take double, half or no damage based on how the types interact. If Pikachu received either the 1 billion volts or the 500 volts the damage of both would be cut in half (although obviously the 500 million volts would still do more damage). Blanka can only absorb the 500 volts harmlessly and therefore anything more would not be resisted like it would for a Pikachu (in fact there should be no resistance because in a mirror match Blanka’s electric attacks do the same damage to another Blanka as any other character). To assume Pikachu’s electricity would do anything less than kill Blanka in around 3 hits is to treat Blanka as if he has the innate ability to half all electric attacks, and therefore treat him as a Pokemon.
  • Why did Pikachu's Static ability never kick in? It works despite normal type matchups, including against other Electrics and the normally No Sell Ground type.
    • In the anime (which is where Ash's Pikachu is from) the Static ability happens by chance. It doesn't always work.
      • True, Static does indeed happen by chance, but that's a flimsy justification considering Death Battles tendency to factor-in things that only happen by chance as well (having all power-ups at the ready/appearing at the right time, being in a certain environment, learning of weaknesses during the fight, potential adaption to attacks, Peach pulling out certain items against Zelda, ANY time an ultimate move is brought into play, etc.)
      • Hilarious in Hindsight: As of Pokémon X and Y, Electric-types are immune to paralysis.
  • I'm not 100% certain, but doesn't pikachus' iron tail have the ability to completely shatter solid rock? If so, why didn't it turn Blankas head into Chili the moment it made contact? I know the fight simulations aren't always totally accurate and usually Just for Fun but still.
    • Also, even if it doesn't liquify Blankas' head, why didn't it leave any lasting injuries on Blanka besides a momentary stun? A blow that big could probably cause some debilitating concussions if not worse.
      • I would think Blanka, who spent his life WRESTLING GATORS, can take a lot of damage.
  • One thing I found odd was that this was Ash's Pikachu ... a Pikachu that's known for "losing" Pokemon battles against bigger and fiercer Pokemon. Sure it's a valuable member of Ash's team, but this Pikachu wouldn't have stood a chance against Blanka to begin with.
    • How about if the "Pikachu" in question was actually Red's Pikachu ... I still think Blanka would've won but the Pikachu would've stood more of a chance.
  • Why did they not take into account information on the electricity itself? The Emerald Pokedex states that Pikachu electricity is equal to real lightning, and Blanka could at most withstand the electricity of the eels. I see no way that sort of resistance could hold up to Blanka being shocked twice even.
    • I also noticed that, it doesn't help that the next episode that features Pokemon, the Kanto Starter Battle Royale, DOES consider the pokedex entries as a part of their research. You may say the Pokedex entries are absurd, possibly written by 10-year-olds, and barely logical thanks to Gameplay and Story Segregation as opposed to what we've witnessed in the games; but Death Battle usually covers everything. We don't know if the power of a lightning strike could severely harm/kill Blanka, but considering the sheer speed, power, and temperature of a lightning bolt, and the fact that Electric Eels can die of electrocution, it's a possibility.
      • Ok, a little more insight here. A bolt of lightning can have as much as A billion volts, 300000 amperes of current, and a temperature of roughly 53.5 thousand degrees Fahrenheit. An Electric Eel? 650 volts, 1 ampere of current, and a vastly lower temperature. It's very likely Blanka's electricity is a little bit more powerful than that pathetic number, but there's no way it can equal a bolt of lightning, let alone withstand it.
      • I wouldn't be so sure. Humans can survive lightning, both from nature and from Pikachu, largely unscathed. Blanka's lightning is powerful enough to hurt total bricks like Sagat and M. Bison. Their power level is a lot closer than you're giving them credit for.
      • Seems Gameplay and Story Segregation rears its ugly head yet again. I for one mainly blame the Pokemon anime's logic and the fact that virtually every fighting same suffers from this trope big time for the sake of fairness and all that. Even then I was primarily comparing an electric eel to a lightning bolt, and yes, people in the past have indeed survived Lightning bolts... but a lot of them don't make a full recovery. Going permanently blind, deaf, losing a limb, etc.

    Superman vs Goku 
  • What the hell was Vegeta up to when the fight started to get really intense? Was he just sitting there at the house (featured at the beginning of the video) watching TV with his thumb up his ass and saying, "My friend and fellow protector of the Earth is just absorbing a gigantic Spirit Bomb to fight the alien that he's worried will destroy the world. It's no big deal, and absolutely nothing I'm concerned with."
    • It was mentioned in the Vegeta vs Shadow fight that Vegeta can only reach super saiyan level 2. Perhaps Vegeta figured that if it got bad enough for Goku's to absorb the frickin' energy of the sun, there was really nothing his (comparatively) weak super saiyan 2 self could do to help.
    • Or maybe World's Dumbest was on and he really wanted to see the #1 video.
      • For something that he put off helping his friend in a fight to the death to watch, it better have been worth it.
      • One, friend? Making a lot of assumptions there, they are only comrades or at least protectors of the Earth. Two, if the battle resulted in going SSJ4 and absorbing the sun's energy for one last attack, then chances are he would have died really quick.
    • He could have tried, heck all the Z-fighters could have tried and ended up having to deal with Supergirl, Superboy, Powergirl, Martian Manhunter, Shazam, et cetra.
      • Death battle has a no outside help rule.
  • It should be noted that pre-crisis Superman can escape black holes, go back in time by spinning the world backwards, be immune to any punch thrown by The Incredible Hulk and, as mentioned, DESTROY SOLAR SYSTEMS BY SNEEZING. Obviously this made Superman's limitations and abilities too random and illogical to measure, so they used the more definitive post-crisis Superman to keep the results and researching accurate, not because they feared Goku would lose but because the reasoning behind the battle would be impossible to explain. Furthermore, Crisis on Infinite Earths changes the DC Universe entirely in terms of canon. If pre-Crisis Superman is considered canon along with the evens from Crisis, then the universe of pre-Crisis Superman was changed, and so the logic that applies to Superman is the same logic used in modern post-Crisis depictions, NOT pre-Crisis.
    • Other moments of asspulling include Superman rebuilding the Great Wall of China with some type of heat vision variation, reviving a dead girl with "Super-Heart Massage", amnesia kissing and other superpowered kisses, MIND CONTROL, talking on the police radio frequency, ice breath that can rapidly age its target, can stop his heartbeat, the ability to eat endlessly without getting full (almost like Goku), and shapeshifting by pulling his body with his hands. [http://comiccoverage.typepad.com/comic_coverage/superpowers-that-time-forgot]
  • Why did Goku get preparation time and supplies and Superman didn't? He has a literal fortress full of things that could have helped him in a fight against Goku, according to the rules of Death Battle why did Goku get extra prep time and information?
    • I'm not sure what you mean by prep time (Goku flew off almost as soon as he heard about Supes), but "supplies" are only out if it's not iconic to the character. For example, Batman may have wielded a gun once or twice in his many incarnations spanning decades of entertainment and across several media, but it's not part of who he is as a character. The Batarangs, for example, are a very iconic weapon of his and thus were allowed in his fight against Spiderman. Weapons are an integral part of who Link and Cloud are, and thus they fought with their strongest weapons and most useful equipment when they faced off. The senzu beans and the Power Pole and may or may not be iconic (I'm not aware of DBZ fandom), but hey, what else could Wiz and Boomstick do to make the indisputable magnum opus of their web series not turn into a 9+ minute Pummel Duel? Give Goku some gear to spice up the action, of course. I suspect they also gave him extra supplies to soften the (in hindsight) enormous edge Superman had.
      • That wasn't an edge. Suerman wielded a wholly different kind of sword altogether.
  • Why are they using Dragonball GT? Even the die-hard versus fans don't like to use it but they said they'd use anything that doesn't contradict the original manga. For Goku, see the previous paragraph. Death Battle always use the latest depictions of the characters at their oldest age as an active, fit warrior, so it applies here with Goku.
    • Because GT offers some additional abilities that could help Goku. SSJ4 only appears in GT.
  • Despite many inconsistencies with the powers of Superman and Goku, many parts of the fight do have truth in canon.
    • DBZ characters allowing their foes to fight at full power is a common trope in the series, which normally ends up bad for the overconfident or honorable characters.
      • This trope is exaggerated. The only time Goku explicitly let the opponent power up when he could stop it is against Frieza (and considering Krillin just died, Goku was VERY angry and wanted to violently crush Frieza) It’s Vegeta who has this problem, not Goku (he let Frieza to transform into both his second and final form, he actively helped Cell absorb Android 18 and he allowed himself to be controlled by Babidi so he could fight Goku and let Majin Buu be released) and the fact that Vegito and Gogeta toy with their opponents way too much is attributed to Vegeta’s influence. While Goku does want to fight opponents at their best and will transform further to match an opponents power increase, he will fight to kill when he feels he needs to.
    • Freeza's destruction of Namek, Gero's bombs and Kid Buu's destruction of Earth almost killed Goku while Cell self destructing (with enough force to destroy the world) did kill Goku before, meaning Goku has never been able to survive a planet destroying explosion. Superman however, can survive supernova explosions, which can destroy multiple planets with a much larger blastforce and blastradius than a single planet explosion. Also even if he survived the explosion, Goku would have suffocated in space. This issue is mentioned near the end of the Freeza Saga when Freeza claims that Saiyans cannot survive prolonged in outer space.
      • The problem is all of those except Cell’s attacks are not reliable measurments. The fact that Frieza mentions Goku not being able to survive in space (which is true) makes it clear that Goku can survive said explosion and it is thus not his max endurance (the same applies to Kid Buu destroying the Earth). Gero’s bomb is also not applicable because all we know is Gero made it because he thinks it will kill Goku. Gero also built Android 16’s bomb based on Goku’s parameters from the Saiyan Saga (he did not know about Super Saiyans or Goku’s power-ups after he left Earth and while training for 3 years in preparation of the Android attack) meaning it is not a good measurement (not to mention trying to read the bomb is stupid). Also Cell’s planet destroying explosion ignores at least 2 factors. First, since King Kai’s planet, which 10X denser than Earth, is destroyed the blast is at least 10X stronger than the force needed to destroy a planet. Second, the attack can completely obliterate the planet (as seen with King Kai’s planet), not just cause the planet to explode the way Frieza’s Death Ball does. The energy needed to cause the planet to explode is much less than the force needed to completely vaporize it. Goku could survive the force of a planet exploding (heck at Super Saiyan 2 his punches are stronger than that) but would die in space. However Superman would not know this per Death Battle rules and would not destroy the Earth just to kill Goku.
    • As mentioned by the experts, Superman's character is based on the idea of having no limits while Goku's character is based on getting stronger while still showing limits.
    • Goku has defeated Cooler and Baby by sending them into the sun, so it is realistic that Goku would try to kill Superman the same way. As Death Battle rules point out, combatants cannot learn of each other's limits or powers before a fight, so Goku didn't know that Superman could be energized by the sun. Also Goku isn't very smart, so probably wouldn't have realized it anyways. Even if Goku didn't do this, Superman was flying towards the sun anyways so the result could still be the same.
      • Goku only did this twice, which is hardly a trend to assume he would easily resort to it. This also ignores the circumstances of sending said opponents to the sun. In Cooler’s case, Goku knew that Cooler has ridiculous endurance like his brother (who survived a planet exploding after being cut in half, using up all of the ki Goku gave him and being hit by a powerful blast by Goku) so it makes sense that Goku would believe that this would override Cooler’s endurance (even though he still survived). As for Baby, Goku only did so because of Baby’s positioning and because doing so would stop Baby from regenerating (this wouldn’t work on Buu who’s regeneration is much stronger). And if Superman was flying towards the sun, Goku would be smart enough to realize sending him into it was a bad idea (and bring him back with Instant Transimission).
    • Superman was 'killed' by Doomsday mainly because the battle took place at night, when Superman is weakest. However Superman can easily fly to the other side of the planet, when it is daytime.
    • Superman, even at normal levels, is significantly more powerful than normal Goku or Super Saiyan 1 Goku, meaning Goku suffered alot of damage early on in the fight compared to Superman.
      • Except that when Goku transforms, his total ki increases by the multiplier of the form and all of his stats, including endurance, increase. This increased endurance makes all the damage he received before transformation negligible compared to his limits post-transformation. Notice how, when fighting Cooler, he goes from lying on the ground unable to move to instantly being to fight at full power and effortlessly overpower said opponent. The same thing happens when he transforms into a Super Saiyan 4 against Baby, he goes from almost dead to good as new. If Superman was holding back to fight at or slightly above Goku’s level, than all damage before Goku reaches Super Saiyan 4 should have no lasting effect, as long as it isn’t something with lasting damage like broken bones on getting stabbed in the heart. Superman actually should be the one who suffers more from a long fight since he has to continuously absorb sunlight to fight. If he is taking hits and continuously using more sunlight to increase his power to match Goku, then he will risk burning through his energy faster than he can absorb energy from the sun (the earth has an atmosphere that limits the amount of sunlight he can absorb, so even on a sunny day he is weaker than in space).
    • A major reason to why Superman could keep up with Goku's transformations is that Superman intentionally limits his strength, even against his greatest foes, due to his pacifist nature and for fear that he will cause serious destruction if unrestrained. As the battle continued, Superman adapted to Goku's power levels. This is why Superman said "I haven't even begun to play".
    • The reason why Superman flew away after saying this was because the sun was setting, so he was flying to the DBZ arena when it was about noon or when the sun is highest during the day. It also got them away from the city. Superman was ensuring that his battle with Goku wouldn't harm anyone else (even if it didn't mean anything in the long run).
    • Goku's powerpole was barely used in DBZ or GT, meaning Goku didn't have much training with it and couldn't rely on it for the fight.
    • Instant Transmition requires concentration, meaning Goku would need to touch Superman during the fight and teleport him without Superman's speed attacking him first.
      • This is not true. Goku only needs signifcant concentrate when teleporting to far away places such as the Supreme Kai’s Planet. This is because he has to find a specific ki signature lightyears away. However pretty much anywhere on earth, with ki signature he knows well, or against an opponent he is fighting (as a living being Superman still has a ki signature, even if he doesn’t fight with ki, and no matter how small it is Goku can lock onto it) Goku can use the technique fairly easily (seen in his fight with Meta Cooler). He also isn’t required to touch his head to use the technique as seen with the Instant Kamehameha and he is capable of spamming the technique like he does in GT against Nuova Shenron.
    • According to the Death Battle, here are the predicted stats of Goku at SSJ4 and Superman based on evidence from the canons.
      • Superman can lift 200 quintillion tons, compared to an estimated 160,000 tons from Goku. This is a difference of 1.25*10^15 or 1.25 quadrillion times the strength of Goku. This difference in strength can be visible in their fighting styles. Superman is more willing to throw or slam heavy buildings, mountains or planes onto his opponents while Goku has rarely done so.
      • Lifting strength does not matter. First of all the comparison is between Superman pushing against an opposing force with his hand, using his entire body to push against it, while Goku is moving with the weight on his arms and legs while flying, meaning he has to be able to lift each limb individually, which is significantly harder. Secondly, even if that doesn’t make a difference, it has no impact on a fight where strength matters in how hard a character can throw a punch. Striking power is massXvelocity, meaning the numbers provided are useless. Superman has always shown that his strongest punches are done after he builds up speed from flying and then smashing into his opponent (his Infinite Mass Punch), his punch with just his arm is much weaker, whereas Goku has consistently proven to be able to release incredible amounts of force from a neutral fighting position, and more if he does build up speed (a Super Saiyan 2 can effortlessly unleash a punch more powerful than the force of an exploding planet). This also means Goku is capable of moving his limbs faster than Superman, meaning he dodge and block attacks in a close quarters fight much better.
      • Superman can fly 9.4billion km/hr or 5.9billion miles/hr (while fighting Wonder Woman) but may be able to fly with an estimated 17billion km/hr according to Batman (if this is true, Superman can fly 6.48 times lightspeed). Goku is calculated to fly at 2,574,000,000 km/hr or 1,600,000,000 mph or 2.3 times lightspeed. This makes Superman AT LEAST 3 times faster than SSJ4 Goku (as Superman's fastest recorded speed was while he was distracted in a fight).
      • This doesn’t matter. Flying in a straight line is not the same as being able to move your body at the same speed, or being able to turn and dodge in any direction while flying at said speed. Superman can fly that fast but he needs to build up speed to do so. Goku has regularly shown to be able to fight at the same speed he moves (shockwaves appear from an impact and he is instantly moved to another spot and continuing to fight, meaning unlike Superman he can fight with his full speed as he can Flash Step). Furthermore he has always shown to be able to fly at full speed from launch and come to a complete stop instantly. Superman’s fight was just him holding onto Wonder Woman as they punched each other, meaning that the distraction means nothing since he is only flying straight. All that this speed means is that if Superman gets far enough away from Goku he can build up speed to fly at Goku very fast, but something flying straight at you is the easiest attack to dodge. Plus Goku’s Instant Transmission is still faster. And, as with every feat mentioned, Superman was flying in space, where the amount of yellow sunlight is greater than on earth.
      • Superman was recorded surviving 10 Octillion Megatons of blasting force, while Goku was calculated to survive 35 Sextillion megatons (his Ki Output is similar to his durability). This makes Superman survive 285714 times the blasting force that Goku can.
      • Many of the stats listed here for Superman are official while Goku's was calculated by the Death Battle hosts. Even if Goku's figures are off, even by 1000 times the actual amount, Superman would still dominate Goku in Defense and Obliterate him in physical strength. As shown in DBZ canon, characters increase in both ki and defenses at similar rates and a DBZ character can only be injured if their opponent is at a similar or stronger power level.
    • Saiyans are not as naturally superhuman as Kryptonians. Other than Super Saiyan (which was one so rare as to be a myth) and Great Ape (which requires training to avoid a feral mind), and the ability to get stronger after near-death experiences Saiyans lack many superpowers unless they train. Goku as a baby had the strength of an ordinary human baby. He needed a lifetime of supernatural training to make him powerful. Being a Saiyan didn't contribute to his powerlevel until he achieved Super Saiyan for the first time. This is why humans like Tien and Krillin were able to almost keep up with Goku's power until later in the DBZ series. Kryptonians on the other hand can lift cars effortlessly while a toddler. Goku needed training from Master Roshi before he could demonstrate similar strength, and Goku was much older than a toddler at that time. At younger ages, Superman could lift large buildings.
  • Why did they use Goku lifting 40 tons as a basis for his strength? Goku's base strength was shown here [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8SfpOj6vmU]. They clearly mention 40 tons as Goku's base limit. Even if theoretically Goku had became a million times stronger by the end of the GT series, he would not be a match for Superman's strength. Also, 40 tons is a reasonable amount of striking force needed to send someone into a mountain, especially if you combine the Ki of the characters with the flying speed of the attacker. He would still end up being far weaker than Superman. Goku (in Super Saiyan 4 form) struggles to lift up part of a city in this clip; that's child's play for Supes. He's has been shown to easily punch people into orbit, claiming that they are sent flying at mach 7. Goku's punches have never demonstrated that much force.
    • Lifting capacity =/= striking power. Striking power/force is Mass x Velocity, and in Goku's case, amplified by his ki. Superman's Infinite Mass Punch is based around the fact that he vibrates fast enough to reach the relativistic mass needed to punch like [[{Understatement} a nuke]].
  • It is common knowledge that the energy in Goku's spirit bomb comes from all living thing and not his own ki pool, so in theory there really is no limit to how powerful a spirit bomb could get. If given enough time and energy it is possible for Goku to make a spirit bomb powerful enough to kill even superman. Even though the spirit bomb is effective against evil beings, that doesn't mean it wouldn't do any damage to a good being. The core issue is the long charging time, particularly when fighting somebody as fast as Superman. In canon, the only times Goku has used the Spirit Bomb have been when he's had allies to cover for him and keep the opponent busy, which is out of the question in a 1-on-1; if he used it, he'd be pummeled before he could get a full charge, and he knows it. There is also the issue that the Spirit Bomb can be deflected by beings with pure spirits Superman, having proven himself with feats like lifting Mjonir in a Marvel/DC crossover and generally being an All-Loving Hero, would be able to deflect the Spirit Bomb.
    • As for the Destructo Disk, the problem is twofold. One its extremely easy to dodge (even in the hands of an experienced user like Krillin using it in its intended situation of a surprise attack), and two, Goku isn't terribly familiar with it, having only used it once or twice. Goku isn't terribly experienced using it, he doesn't like surprise attacks and lacks a distraction, and Superman is fast enough to dodge it without appearing to move at all. There's a reason why, in DBZ, everybody prefers continuous beams to small projectiles, and that's likelihood of hitting. In the unlikely chance that it did hit, even the strongest non-magical or non-kryptonite blades could only at best lacerate his skin- this includes energy infused blades. I see no evidence that Superman can be killed by slicing attacks under normal conditions and the Destructo Disk has 'shattered' before- especially since Goku hasn't mastered or perfected this attack. It would be like if Batman defeated Spider-Man with knockout gas- yes its possible but a cheap way to win a fight.
    • It should be mentioned that Superman can't lift Mjolnir on his own. He fails to do so after the crisis and Thor tells him that the restriction had been lifted during the battle.
  • The speed calculation for Goku doesn't sound accurate with all the near death power ups and training he did later. This is where math comes in. Boomstick mentioned here-> [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwN0O4iNnrM&feature=youtu.be&t=16m] <- that they did account for Goku's later training methods in his heavier gravity environments and used it in the calculation. They used the Snake Way calculations to determine how fast he was after becoming accustomed to 10x gravity. They then used that figure to find out his speed had he spent that time in standard Earth gravity (1x) instead, and then multiplied that figure by the highest equivalent weight measurement he's seen training under (40 tons, or 586x gravity, being his upper limit in base form). After that, Goku's training seemed to be focussed less on increasing his base power and more on achieving and perfecting his various techniques and transformations, such as the ability to go SSJ2 effectively effortlessly, meaning that his maximum stats would be covered by the Super Saiyan multipliers.
    • It should be noted that "they would have to be really far off for it to matter" is a logical fallacy. They could very well be off by trillions of times. They could also be off in the opposite direction; they do not seem to have accounted for the fact that it takes infinite energy to reach the speed of light. That the equations are unreliable means that NO reasonable conclusion either way can be drafted from them. Also, while ignoring this physical law, they invoked Newton's Laws to put a cap on Goku's Ki.
      • Their hands were tied. It says "Infinite Mass Punch" in the comic, so that's what it is. Also, Goku's attacks were shown to only move him backwards when he let them, without wrecking the land underneath him. That provides evidence for his maximum output at any given time, not his reserve of energy.
      • Which is stupid. If their hands are tied by backless claim in the source material than why doe they refuse to believe that Cell (and therefore Goku) is capable of destroying the solar system in a single attack. There is no reason to doubt the claim (and official material supports it) but they don’t use it. Also the calculations for speed are based on measurements from a notoriously off model Anime screenshot. He also didn’t fly across Snake Way (the clip they show is from his first trip) he jumped at high speeds. He also was still able to fight at full power after the trip meaning that it wasn’t even his max speed at that point in the series.
  • Power levels are even more irrelevant when you consider the fact that Superman's power levels were not measured by the DBZ's definition of what a power level is. Heck, even in the DBZ universe itself, Power Levels have been declared irrelevant and inaccurate by Word Of God.
  • Instant Transmition being 'instant' instead of being light-speed is an important distinction considering Superman can easily fly faster than light-speed.
  • In the comic series [[Superman: Red Son]], Superman survives Braniac's self destructing spaceship, which detonated with the energy of 6 black holes. Since black holes are formed by supernova explosions and Lex Luthor hinted that the ship had similar explosive power to a supernova explosion, that means Superman survived about 60 Octillion Megatons of force and be 1,714,284 times more durable than Goku's predicted durability as SSJ4.
    • Problem is, it isn't canon.
  • If Coldcast's claim is true, then Superman can easily survive 15 supernova explosions at point blank, which is 150 Octillion Megatons making Superman at least 4,285,710 times more durrable than Goku.
    • First of all this assumes that the claim is true, and if it is then it is also fair to assume Cell can destroy the solar system so let’s try and do the math on this one like Death Battle like to do when its convienient for them. According to this http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2001-11/1004909251.As.r.html it takes 5.5E+31 (or 55 Nonillion) Megatons to destroy the solar system. Since Super Perfect Cell is roughly half as strong as a Super Saiyan 2 (Gohan lost half of his power when his arm was injured but was still able to overpower the Solar Kamehameha with the Father-Son Kamehameha) we can multiply it by 80 for for the other half of the SS 2 power-up as well as the SS 3 and SS 4 power-ups and by another 400 since Super Saiyan 1 2 and 3 should be factored in again because GT Goku’s base power is roughly the same as Z Goku’s Super Saiyan 3 power which makes Goku able to release 1.76 UNDECILLION MEGATONS of force in a full power Kamehameha. According to Newton’s law (which shouldn’t apply because otherwise Goku would need half his ki to endure this attack, but whatever) Goku is more durable than Superman, and can still Superman him even if he is not more durable.
  • The makers of Superman The Animated Series confirmed in commentary that they gave Superman more limitations in the animated adaptation to make the show more entertaining by making it look like Superman could lose. This reflects Boomstick's notion that 'Superman is inconsistent because writers do whatever the hell they please.' http://youtu.be/Qdsm6U3YahQ
    • Superman is inconsistent, however that is in itself a problem. They say he is inconsistent but then use the absolute best and most ridiculous stats for Superman (as opposed to the more reasonable and consistent stats he has most often) but somehow GT Goku is too inconsistent to use, when he only has a few times where he is made way too weak (namely turning Super Saiyan 4 to lift a building). This especially stupid because despite the lack of numbers, Goku is much easier to determine max stats because he always gets stronger (excluding when he turns into a kid, but that is still stronger than Z) so he is strongest at the end of the series whereas Superman is stronger or weaker at any given time based on the writers. Furthermore while he is made weak in Superman TAS and Season One of Justice League, he his strength is much more appropriate from then on (namely in his fights with Captain Marvel and Darkseid). If they want to be fair either form consistent stats that fit with the power both characters most regularly exhibit or go all the way with Goku and use the increased GT stats (meaning at the absolute minimum means all of the Super Saiyan 3 stats, which are equal to Majin Buu, become his base stats and apply all the transformations again) and find use the absolute best you can despite inconsistencies.
    • They didn't use Superman's best feats! They didn't mention how him "becoming the filling of a planet sandwich" was calced at 24 NONILLION Megatons right here: http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=18296 or him flying through Krypton's sun was at least 20 Billions times the speed of light http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?b=21359 or him moving the wheels of the Mageddon, a giant alien war machine big enough to dwarf our sun; or him absorbing the energy of an anti-sun capable of destroying half of the milky way... they nerfed Superman so this battle would be fair. Also going by the official power levels and powerscaling the GT stats aren't far from the moment they stablished as Goku's "prime", Word of God confirms this by claiming "Goku and the other Z Fighters were at the peak of their power in Battle of Gods, and by the time of Uub's appearance their age had caused their power to decrease"
    • Except Battle of Gods information does not apply to this fight (otherwise all of GT would be ignored and Super Saiyan God would have been involved and completely invalidated all of their calculations). Battle of the Gods was not out at the time of the fight so it and all statements connected to it were not available then. It is also completely untrue that Goku's prime is equal to GT Kid Goku. Again GT Goku's base form was STRONGER THAN MAJIN BUU, meaning at the very least, all of the numbers they used for Super Saiyan 3 Goku should be made GT Goku's base stats. Also the power levels should be ignored, they are stupid (why they are still shown besides fan demand I have no idea). However power scaling is an entirely different beast. Power scaling lets us compare feats of strength and destruction of certain characters and know that stronger characters have a proportionally stronger capability. Furthermore those numbers compared to what they use does not sound like a nerf to me (it is possible they simply missed them, Superman does have 30 years of Post-Crisis comic history to look through). They didn’t nerf him to make the fight “fair” because it was anything but. If the solar system busting measurement is used Goku can still release more force than that and he can still move faster than Superman with Instant Transmission, which does not need as much focus as they claim unless he is teleporting to a distant planet (that speed also doesn’t matter because being able to fly in a straight line at that speed does not mean Superman is capable of fighting at that speed, i.e. throw punches or move parts of his body to dodge attacks). The the numbers they use, and the millions of times difference between them based on their made up numbers, are meant to show that Superman is so “Lolawesome” that Goku could NEVER compete with him. Even if the factors I mentioned aren’t considered enough for Goku to win they could easily have made the fight much more fair without nerfing Superman, but they clearly didn’t want to do that.
  • They claim that Goku could not know about Superman gaining power from the sun without prior knowledge but that seems unlikely to me. When Goku uses the Spirit Bomb he gathers energy from the life around him and can very clearly sense the energy and where it is coming from. In the Lord Slug movie Goku is able to gather energy for the Spirit Bomb from the sun (and there is nothing in canon that suggests otherwise). Therefore Goku should also be able to sense the sun’s energy (whether it is considered having life energy or not is beside the point). If that is true shouldn’t he be able to sense that Superman is absorbing the sun’s energy even if Superman does not use Ki? If so Goku certainly wouldn’t try to shoot him into the sun and would at least try and teleport Superman to somewhere on Earth where it is night to limit his power source.
  • Why on earth do they try and limit Goku with physics? Physics clearly do not apply to ki. In fact since ki is used to enhance durability, and characters in DBZ have been shown to put all of their energy into one attack, then they have to be able to release more than they can endure, otherwise they could only release half of their energy and need the other half to endure the attack.
  • Why do they refuse to use power scaling? Power scaling is the method Toriyama uses to convey strength in the series consistently (the Supreme Kais are 1000 times stronger than Frieza, General Rilldo is stronger than Majin Buu) and is the way to gauge the strength a character is at by comparing the power they have to the power, and therefore general feats, of a weaker character. Therefore we know Kid Goku in base form is stronger than Buu because he can evenly fight against someone stronger than Buu. We know a Super Saiyan 2’s basic punches are stronger than the force of an exploding planet because they can one-shot Cell Jr.’s that have the same cells and endurance as Frieza, who can survive said explosion when half dead and with no ki. Since Super Perfect Cell can destroy the solar system by focusing his power into a Kamehameha, every character stronger than him (Super Saiyan 2 and above) have enough raw ki to do the same feat if focused into a Kamehameha. By creating numbers they are giving Superman his feats in the form the authors intended, but Goku is short changed by Toriyama not using inflated numbers. If Goku was giving the intended measurement of power scaling than the fight would be siginificantlly more balanced.
    • Let's use both powerscaling and power levels to see how well that works; "the Supreme Kais are 1000 times stronger than Frieza" and the Full-powered Frieza had a power level of 120,000,000 so that would mean the Supreme Kais had a power level of 120,000,000,000 while Kid Buu had just 1,150,000,000 then it totally makes sense Kid Buu destroyed them. Or let's use Kid Buu's power level as a base for SSJ 3 Goku and the SSJ 4 multiplier; we get 11,500,000,000 so it makes sense he struggled against Omege Shenron who only has 1,900,000,000, right? By the way it's hard to buy the same Goku who can't lift a building without going SSJ being able to defeat Buu
      • I said power scaling, not power levels. Power levels are inaccurate, the numbers mean nothing (which is all you are using). I only brought up the "1000 times stronger than Frieza" to show that DBZ canon uses scaling power to show increase. You also ignore the parts I said about Super Saiyan 2 Gohan's punches being planet busting or being a solar system buster, which are the points in which power scaling matters. Furthermore that Super Saiyan 4 building scene is notorious for being incredibly stupid and inaccurate (and its not like Superman is consistent, if he's as fast as they say he is Batman could NEVER fight against him). The glass thing also ignores the increase of durability with ki. When not used his body is normal (hence why he is scared of injections or Chi-Chi hitting him). At least try and address my points with your answer.
      • Powerscaling isn't reliable either, take for example Super 17; he's twice as strong as Android 17 (who's bellow Imperfect Cell) and yet he defeated Uub and could keep up with Kid Goku, does tha means being twice as strong as Imperfect Cell is being as strong as Buu? Or when Omega Shenron was blasted into pieces by SSJ 4 Goku's Dragon Fist and yet he could survive a Big Bang Kamehameha from (the according to official sources over 12x more powerful than S Sj 4 Goku) SSJ 4 Gogeta. Lastly even if we use SSJ 3 stats (3.47 Sextillion megatons according to Death Battle) as Base Goku stats (which would mean SSJ 4 = 13.88 Septillion megaton), he's still not powerful enough to kill Superman
      • First of all Super 17 isn't just twice as strong as regular 17. All Fusions are exponentially stronger than the sum of their components (look at Gotenks compared to Goten and Trunks and SS 4 Gogeta who is dozens of times, not 12 times, stronger than Goku and Vegeta). I highly doubt the scientist who created Cell (who became powerful enough to destroy the solar system) and the scientist who created a robot stronger than Majin Buu could do no better than twice as powerful as Gero's third strongest creation. Secondly the Big Bang Kamehameha does do more damage to Omega Shenron than the Dragon Fist. Omega Shenron was merely blasted to pieces by the Dragon Fist and then recovered instantly, however the Big Bang Kamehameha was powerful enough to knock the Dragon Balls out of Omega Shenron, reverting him back to the much weaker Syn Shenron, and leaves visible damage on him. While it looks less impressive, the damage is longer lasting (this also happens with Majin Buu where he can be blasted apart and reform easily but when just punched by significantly stronger character like Ultimate Gohan or Super Vegito he staggers in pain and takes longer to recover). Furthermore I said at the very least the Super Saiyan stats should apply. However power scaling gives better stats than there severely lowballed numbers. With power scaling every punch from a Super Saiyan 4 is at least 40 times stronger than the force of an exploding planet (actually more than that because Frieza survived the explosion when he was near death and had basically no ki, meaning the force of a Super Saiyan 2 punch must be more than said explosion and that does not factor in the Cell Jr.’s having ki to enhance endurance) and a full power Kamehameha can release 80 times the force needed to destroy the solar system. Heck even if we ignore GT and the fact that it can be inconsistenct (which is where all the examples you use come from) Goku’s effortless punches are 4 times the power of an exploding planet and his Kamehameha is 8 times the force needed to destroy the solar system (440 Nonillion megatons).
      • DBZ top tiers are indeed capable of throwing planet-busting punches, so is Superman (and without the IMP) who has feats to back that up. Regarding those inflated numbers, we cannot rely on Perfect Cell's 'Solar System busting' claim, why? Because A) He was Drunk with power B) He has no feats to back up his claims; which is something that happened at least twice in the Dragon Ball manga. First with King Piccolo claiming to be capable of destroying the world, when he was at his best a city-buster; and second, Frieza who has hyped as a universe level threat but could only destroy planets. That's why Perfect Cell's claim was disregarded; and that not only happens on DBZ, we have "Almighty" Enel from "One Piece" and a "Unlimited Power" Palapatine in "Star Wars". Taking seriously a claim with no edvidence would be extreme bias and it's the very reason why the "Herald-level comicbook character Vs DBZ top tier" threads are banned from some sites (one side has a plethora of feats and the other has a plethora of wankers with inflated numbers based on little to no evidence)
      • Forgive me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure King Piccolo never said he was able to destroy the whole planet, just that he could kill every one it (which he could do one city at a time). Frieza is a universal threat not because he could destroy the universe, but because he was stronger than pretty much everyone else (except Buu, who was sealed, and Beerus, who wasn't evil) and had a galactic empire of death and destruction. The problem with your statement is that there is absolutely no reason for Cell to lie. Why would Toriyama to include that line unless it is meant to be taken seriously (and all of the characters can feel the energy of the attack and do not doubt his claim)? Why does it make more sense to believe the author is actively lying to us then to accept the claim (and unlike DC comics does, Dragon Ball does not take place all over space and the multiverse to allow for expendable solar systems, if the feat was proven everyone would be dead). Furthermore, the claim is backed by official sources, including the Kanzenshuu (see here and here). Also the One Piece and Star Wars examples are so vague as to not mean anything, whereas capable of destroying the solar system is a specific feat. And in regards to your last statement, it means nothing because it can easily be turned around (one side has a steady up-scaling in power with measurable increase in feats while the other has inconsistent characters that are fiction's greatest example of Strong as They Need to Be).
      • I'm not going to discuss Anime-only guides, mostly because Death Battle used them (practically dooming themselves), nor the fact feats >>> claims; instead I'll just correct something in your little calc, an explosion large enough to cover the Solar System would be 300 Octillion Megatons and the power to completely destroy a Solar System is just 1 Nonillion megaton
      • So let me get this straight, you are willing to use some random TV game to prove power levels (and the Super Saiyan 4 power) but the anime, which is an extension of the manga with more included, which should not have problems being used as long it does not directly contradict the manga is somehow illegitimate? WHAT! The anime is approved by Toriyama and is just as reliable a source except in cases of glaring mistakes (Vegeta blowing up Arlian with a Finger Beam is not considered the general level of power needed to destroy a planet because it was too easy, whereas his full-power Galick Gun is). If you can’t use the anime than every Death Battle ever could only have one primary source to back it up (heck they even use animated movies to back up Superman’s powers). What do you mean they “doomed themselves?” Except GT (which just added 10x to everything) all of the bullshit low stats came from scenes that were also in the manga. And even so I sited the Kanzenshuu, which is official from Toriyama. And yes a claim can be considered true if the author tells you it is. Fiction only lies to the audience if a character is withholding information, a character doesn’t know the full story, or if a character is consistently proven to be boastful and not able to back up their claims (which fits much more with Hercule than with Cell). Should we not believe that Sauron getting the One Ring guarantees his victory and conquest of Middle Earth because we do not see it happen? Of course not, villains cannot always show feats because doing so would mean the heroes lose, but the threat is considered real because we have to take the author’s word for it. If the author and the story officially state the claim, then it is true (heck with Toph they base her entire victory off of one writer’s note, when in the show she could have just heard the rocks in front of her face). You cannot just ignore my argument when it is convenient for you just because you cannot properly counter it. And can you site your source for the destruction of the solar system? Destroying the solar system means enough force to destroy every single planet in it and the sun, and I am getting the measurement of 55 Nonillion Megatons from this http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives/2001-11/1004909251.As.r.html (in fact this just includes the force necessary to destroy it and does not include the energy necessary to make the explosion cover the entire solar system, so the number should be even higher). And even if we use your number (for both the solar system and SS 4 Goku), Goku can still unleash 10 Nonillion Megatons of force (SS 2 Gohan had half of his power left when his arm was injured yet he still beat Cell’s Solar Kamehameha and if we ignored that fact and just used SS 2 power it would still be 5 Nonillion), which is higher than Superman’s max endurance.
      • Funny thing is King Piccolo claims about him being capable of destroying the world (if he actually said it,since I'm not entirely sure)isn't completely wrong.And Piccolo should at least be a moon buster not a city buster since after all Roshi was able to completely destroy the moon from earth and his power level was nearly half that of King Piccolo's. assuming that Piccolo has at least the same destructive power as Roshi which between 30-60 trillion megaton not enough to destroy the earth but more than enough to destroy all life on the planet and bring the world to an end.In addition it seem kind of funny how people all seem to completely agree with DB's measurement of Goku's durability using Gero's bomb and not Cell's claim. Especially when you consider that measure on that bomb was. A) Barely legible , B.)Completely nonsensible(since it takes waaay more than 579,567mt to blow up a planet and according the manga the bomb can do this.Yeah, they tried to justify it by saying it was in quadrillion megatons but one could argue that those were random and meaningless and should have been disregarded much like the way they disagreed Measurements of Fighter Kirby's planet splitting punch because it read 201mt).And finally C.)Not shown or given in the manga. At least Cell's claim was actually cannon....unlike that bomb measurement they used those numbers could have easily been complete nonsensible gibberish and yet fans act like it's a establish fact. I give them points for not resorting to power leveling and power scaling but I would say their measurement of Goku's durability was in no way accurate or even valid at all .
  • Why did they claim Goku only powers up his Super Saiyan forms after the Frieza Saga when GT (which they are using) explicitly shows Goku training his base form with Uub? Even if they want to ignore Kid Goku because his power is in flux and inconsistent (which is stupid because base form is explicitly stronger than Majin Buu, the scene they show about his power in flux is only explaining why he can’t stay in the taxing Super Saiyan 3 form and they include all the ridiculous feats from all over Superman’s Post Crisis timeline despite how inconsistent they are) than they should use GT episode 1 Goku but apply the strongest feats of Kid Goku, since he was weakened when turning into a kid. By using Z stats, claiming he doesn’t increase said stats and ignoring the factors beside the numbers (Goku was trying to train with the 40 ton weights but having to constantly use ki to move would be wasteful and as a Full Power Super Saiyan who wastes no ki when transformed he can train more efficiently, meaning the 40 tons does not factor in extra ki usage) and trying to write off when he is strongest (he is stronger in GT than he is in his “prime”) they are severely limiting Goku’s strength.
    • Regarding the Z-fighters' "prime" Word of God states that "by the time of Uub's appearance, their age had caused their power to decrease", so using Goku's last manga appearance before Uub's introduction was a legitimate way to stablish his prime. Besides, who would honestly believe the same Goku who struggled to lift buildings or gets "papercuts" by broken glasses is stronger than Majin Buu?
    • Problem is this can't include both Battle of Gods and GT because Battle of Gods rendered GT non-canon. Therefore that Word of God is invalid for this battle (otherwise Goku would have used his Super Saiyan God form which still invalidates their statement that Goku never trains his base form as after said transformation his base stats become infinitely larger). If GT was used (and Super Saiyan 4 is weaker than Super Saiyan God) than the power increase clearly shown in GT must be used. And as said above the inconsistency is either due to not using ki or stupid writers. I love how you say we can't believe Goku's power because of ONE bad example but should believe Superman's feats when he is perhaps the most inconsistent character of all time (remember when he is sometimes just the "Man of Steel" and "faster than a speeding bullet").
  • Why do they say Goku doesn’t like surprise attacks? If he needs to he will use them without hesitation. His Instant Kamehameha where he teleports right in front of the opponent or into their blind spot is a surprise attack. In GT he hides in a trash can to shoot Nuova Shenron from behind. He uses the Solar Flare to blind his opponents and shot Great Ape Vegeta in the eye. He hides underwater and launches energy balls up at Frieza as a distraction so he can sneak up on him. When fighting Omega Shenron he hides the fact that his eyes have healed so he can attack Omega Shenron with his full power when he tries to give Goku a free shot. Goku’s definition of a fair fight seems to be one-on-one and even then he can relax that rule and fight with others against a big enough threat.
    • Key word: If he needs to.
      • And he doesn't need to because......?
  • How come it’s never brought up that all of Superman’s most egregious feats all took place in space? Superman gains more power based on the amount of yellow sunlight he absorbs so he can absorb more in space, where it is not filtered by Earth’s atmosphere. Since the fight could not leave Earth for long (since Goku cannot breathe in space) shouldn’t Superman’s strength and durability be siginifantly lower than the max stats they gave him during this fight?
  • It's impressive nobody seems willing to point this little mistake; it's stated in the video game "Scouter Battle Taikan Kamehameha" that a Super Saiyan 4 is just 10x a regular Super Saiyan in power (matching the 10x Kamehameha multiplier). Which means that the true SSJ 4 multiplier should have been Base x 50 x 10.
    • Video game power levels are not official sources. Furthermore power levels mean nothing considering the difference two characters can have yet still be able to fight relatively equally increases exponentially and makes no sense. Furthermore how is it possible that Super Saiyan 3 (8 times stronger than Super Saiyan) is curbstomped by Baby but Super Saiyan 4 (10 times stronger than Super Saiyan) can then curbstomp Baby?
    • A few problems with your counter-argument; GT itself wasn't written by Toriyama, it was written by TOEI, so to them that little difference is significant enough; and it was TOEI who wrote the game and the SSJ 4 multiplier, said multiplier isn't based on power levels; it's just simply stated SSJ 4 is 10x a regular Super Saiyan
    • First off no, Toei did not make the game, Bandai did. And second, off it is inconsistent with itself. Meta-Rilldo’s Power Level is stated to be 1,200,000,000. Super Saiyan GT Goku was cabable of fighting on equal terms with him (the only reason he couldn’t win was because Meta-Rilldo can regenerate from any metal on Planet M-2). However Super Saiyan 4 Goku’s power level is said to be 1,500,000,000, which is not 10x the number that roughly fits Super Saiyan Goku. A random game is not a proper source.
  • They ignored Superman absorbing Maggedon's power core which was about to wipe out over half of the galaxy; or him surviving a blast from Imperiex-prime, a cosmic being who destroyed several galaxies and vaporized Doomsday; or destroying the Galactic Golem who had the mass/power of a Solar System! They either hate Superman and/or wanted fans to question the result
    • “They hated Superman?” They scaled the entire battle in his favor by refusing to give Goku a chance of fighting with their pathetically innacurate measurements. Those feats are not as great as you claim. Maggedon was capable of exploding to destoy half of the galaxy, however that does not mean its power source alone has that much energy. Explosions require specific reactions to release that much energy so that does not mean the amount of anti-sunlight he has is the same as said explosion. Also there is no indication of how much of his power Imperiex-prime uses when Superman survives his attack, so it is not possible to use him destroying galaxies (did he even do it all at once or in several attacks, I don’t know its not specified in the wiki) as proof of Superman’s endurance. Furthermore the fight with Galactic Golem is Pre-Crisis meaning it cannot be considered a reliable feat. Finally, those first two feats both took place in space, where Superman has access to more yellow sunlight than he does on a fight on earth. They hate that fans question the result in the other way. That Goku was not as weak as they claim. They clearly show that they think Superman is so “teh stronkest character evar” that Goku had zero chance of winning. Did you even watch the same video as everyone else?
      • Are you capable of spouting anything other than mindless hate?
    • First, Mageddon wasn't capable of wiping out the galaxy, he initiated a self-destruct protocol to make his anti-sun explode in the form of a supernova and wipe out half of the milky way; in fact in the face of Mageddon's self-destruction DC's angels began their plans to replace, not the galaxy, but the universe! Second Imperiex-prime blast vaporized Doomsday one the only two beings capable of fighting his probes, while the only thing his blast did to Superman was pushing him out of the Solar System. And Third. the fight against the Daxamite Galactic Golem happened post-crisis and Superman still destroyed him. They didn't want people to believe Superman could win, that's why they didn't use this.
    • I admit I have not read these comcis so I cannot guarantee 100% accuracy on this but the wiki seems to contradict you. For Mageddon it says tek's sacrifice, Superman found himself able to absorb all the anti-sun's energy just as well as he could absorb sunlight. Subsequently, he shut the warhead down permanently. “ This tells us two things. One, that the self-destruct had not activated meaning it didtn’ have its full power (however much that is, milkyway or galaxy, which the wiki says, doesn’t matter). Two, that Superman could absorb the anti-sunlight the same as he can with normal sunlight. That means that this is a special situation where the amount of energy does not matter because Superman is absorbing his own power as opposed to taking a hit from a different source, meaning it has no bearing on how he would endure a punch or a ki blast. As for Doomsday, comparing him to Superman is irrelevant because they are completely different in everything but strength. Superman was able to force a Mutual Kill with him on Earth at night, when he is weakest aside from being near a Red Sun. The fight with Imperiex-Prime took place in space where Superman is much stronger. Secondly the type of invulnerability the two have is completely different. An attack that vaporizes Doomsday says nothing about how that compares to Superman’s endurance because there is no proper measurement of the attack (and it would most likely still be less than the endurance Death Battle listed, and the force to push something away from the solar system is definitely less than the energy needed to destroy it completely, so the feat is still less than Goku’s output). “Strong enough to vaporize Doomsday” says nothing about the actual power of the attack. Compare this to measuring Cell Jr.’s endurance where we know they can survive the same amount of force as Frieza can (actually more since they are stronger and had ki to increase their endurance) because they were created with his cells. This is a reasonable comparison as opposed to comparing the completely different Superman and Doomsday. And third you are wrong about the Galactic Golem. From his wiki page, “Although this character was originally introduced during DC's Earth-One era of publication, their existence following the events of the 1985-86 limited series Crisis on Infinite Earths remains intact. However, some elements of the character's Pre-Crisis history may have been altered or removed for Post-Crisis New Earth continuity, and should be considered apocryphal.” This flat out means that this fight cannot be considered a reliable source as it was before the Crisis which set standards on Superman’s powers (to a degree, the writers still can’t agree on how strong he is). If we use this feat he also should be able to shoot mini versions of himself out of his hands, and we know how stupid that would be. I don’t understand what you’re arguing. Superman WON! They did want people to believe Superman would win without a shadow of a doubt, which is why they get so annoyed whenever people question the outcome (despite the dozens of reasonable issues with their research and calculations). At this point you have to be a Troll because everything you say is either wrong or irrelevant.
    • First, I don't know which wiki are you reading because the dc wiki pretty confirms what I read on Superman absorbing the Anti-Sunlight from Maggedon's "warhead" when it says: "Whenever at its last resort the Mageddon weapon can initiate a suicide protocol within its negatively charged anti-sun. By breaching its power sources core this weapon can initiate a catastrophic explosion in the form of a supernova that could at minimum wipe out over half of the galaxy" (I can't link the scans but it's all right there in the comic) Second, surviving something that one-shot Doomsday is quite the feat because A) Doomsday has "Reactive Evolution", so everytime he dies he comes back to life and becomes almost invulnerable to whatever killed him before B) After being killed by Superman (and coming back to life) Doomsday pretty much has no sold Darkseid's Omega beams, curbstomped Darkseid, Superman himself, the Justice League, and The Outsiders (which includes him destroying Eradicator, a being that was stronger than Supes and could casually transmute entire stars); so it's not hard to believe that the blast that completely obliterated Doomsday came from a Galaxy-buster Galactus's expy; that was the blast Superman survived! And it makes sense because after his training with Mongul II, Supes became stronger than Doomsday. Third, for the last time! I'm not talking about the Pre-crisis Galactic Golem! There was a Post-crisis Galactic Golem coming from planet Daxam! And said Golem was detroyed by Superman http://imgur.com/a/34wer#0 No wiki talks about this Galactic Golem. And that's not all Death Battle ignored, Superman clash with his alternate self was shattering time and space; He plowed through "Emperor Joker", a reality-warper; Superman survived a double-black hole; He survived hits from Persuader's axe that can cut through dimensions; Tanked hits from the Void Hound (a weapon when tested destroyed 10 Solar Systems); and He also took hits from Superboy prime (the guy who almost kills the Universe-buster Antimonitor effortlessly!); lastly even though they brought up "Torquasm-vo", they didn't even mention that said kryptonian martial art gives Supes minor reality warping power. All of this happened POST-CRISIS! And Death Battle didn't want people to know about this
    • For the record all of my information comes from http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Main_Page or regular Wikipedia when it has the info. I fully admit to not having the comics but unless you can find a better wiki, I’m going to go off of this. However, you ignore my point about Mageddon. That even if it can initiate such an explosion, it didn’t reach that point and that Superman absorbing Anti-Sunlight is something he can do because he is a Kryptonian, meaning it is not a feat of general endurance. Doomsday’s Adaptive Ability has nothing to do with this. It allows him to No Sell anything that has already killed him. He has never been hit with Imperiex Prime’s blast, so his ability does not affect it. Also you keep mentioning Doomsday’s feats of strength, which doesn’t matter either because power and endurance are completely independent of each other. It does not matter if Doomsday can beat opponents stronger than Superman since that does not mean he by default has more endurance than Superman (as opposed to in Dragon Ball where attack power and defense are fueled by ki, meaning a fighter can use ki to defend against the same amount power they can dish out). As far as I can tell, Imperiex Prime does not one-shot a galaxy, he destroys it a planet or solar system at a time (if we just assume he can one-shot than we also have to assume that Broly is galaxy buster, as opposed to us seeing a condensed version of his destruction, which would still make Goku stronger). As for the Galactic Golem, I cannot find anything on it, but the power you claim is has does seem to be from the Pre-Crisis version. The image you show does not state how powerful it is. I cannot find information about the fight with his alternate self, but what are the circumstances of that fight? Are there outside factors involved? Plowing through Emperor Joker is not a feat, because Emperor Joker recovers instantly so it doesn’t matter if he is hit (and there is no known endurance for this body because of said regeneration rendering endurance moot), and Superman still cannot actually hurt Emperor Joker anyway. The double black hole is commonly cited as a huge misconception for what it means (http://www.screwattack.com/news/some-superman-misconceptions). Even if it was as it is believed, that just shows his flying speed to escape the black hole (and as earlier stated flying in a straight line does not matter in a fight). Everything I’ve seen says that the Atomic Axe can cut through Superman (he survives because the wounds are not deep enough to be fatal). The information on the Void Hound, http://greenlantern.wikia.com/wiki/Void_Hound, does not have feats anywhere near what you claim (and Goku still has more power than it). Superboy-Prime does not kill the Anti-Monitor effortlessly. If you are talking about the event in the Sinestro Corps books, Superboy-Prime killed the Anti-Monitor immediately after he was severely weakened by New Warworld and the Yellow Central Power Battery being detonated at point blank range, meaning Superboy-Prime, while stronger than Superman, is not necessarily so strong that Superman could not survive against him (and the Anti-Monitor is not a universe buster under his own power, he uses highly advanced technology to do so). Torquasm-vo does not give Superman Reality Warper powers; it is a mental martial art that gives him significant resistance to mental attacks. And finally, as far as I can tell, most, if not all, of these feats take place IN SPACE. This means that they are not necessarily applicable on Earth, where Superman has access to less sunlight. In every example you are either exaggerating, or ignoring context through generalizations. While Death Battle screwed Goku by making up numbers (as opposed to extrapolating numbers that can be gotten from known feats based on power scaling), Superman’s feats being based on numbers from the source material (while most are irrelevant) does make sense. They got numbers that were significant enough to claim Superman is WAY more powerful than Goku (ignoring the sunlight on Earth issue and selling Goku short in the process). Compared to other glaring omissions in the series, missing feats that might not be measurable (and would not affect the outcome) is the absolute least of this show’s questionable research.
    • You're disregarding these feats because you simply don't like them and because of the character, calling every major feat meaningless is not the way to win a debate; and since you don't read any DC comics, I'll put this as short as I can, Darkseid (even excluding his Omega beams) couldn't physically hurt Doomsday but he's able to badly hurt Supes with both his punches and his Omega beams, so Doomsday > Darkseid > Superman. Regarding the fight of Superman against his alternate self, there's no outside factors, their fight was shattering time and space everytime they connected a punch. Said Axe (can't link the scan) cutted a dimension during that fight, a visible feat and the narration confirms this. The story of the Void Hunt starts with this narration (can't link the scan): "There is an acient legend among the people of the planet Qward, of Erdammeru, The Void Hound" "The lagest, deadliest weapon ever built by the weaponers of Qward. Tested once, TEN STAR SYSTEMS DIED.", quoting the guy above "it was written that way"; Superboy-Prime is the guy who can break reality with a punch and cause cosmic retcons by using physical strength! Yet he punched Superman several times and didn't manage to kill him. Anti-monitor is a cosmic being that has absorbed countless positive-matter universes, without the need of any kind of tech, in order to increase his own power (as he seeks to destroy the multiverse), and even the current Justice League arc "Darkseid Wars" confirms that fact; Anti-monitor is a casual universe-buster that couldn't be defeated even by an Amped Spectre and scores of the multiverse's strongest heroes all fighting him at once. T-vo helped Supes to maintain his "inner reality" while fighting a reality-warper, thanks to this "martial art" Metron stated he was powerful enough to affect the outcome of the battle between Infinity-Man and the Source, a fight that destroyed the universal Source Wall. Finally Supes survived the Source Wall explosion, even though this cannot "measured" it gives a clear message, one of the few things Death Battle got right in this battle: Superman is the poster boy of As Strong as they need to be. Even if the fight was Goku Vs Pre-crisis Superman, or Goku Vs Thanos, or even Goku Vs Galactus, these debates and discussions will never end...
    • First off, I apologize for the length of this, but since this is a debate, I should reply to each of your points. I love how you are accusing me of ignoring the feats because I don’t like the character just because I offer any argument (and if people can argue against power scaling and the Solar Kamehameha despite overwhelming and explicit information, than I can do this). I am explaining that a lot of those feats are CONDITIONAL, meaning that they are affected by factors that make them harder to use for anaylsis because of outside factors. I fully admit to not reading DC Comics, however that does not mean I am unable to participate in a discussion. There is 30 years worth of material to sift through, and it is not reasonable to say I have to read all that to have a debate. I am trying to find these feats you mention, but I am having difficulty finding anything more than vague (and sometimes contradictory) summaries of these things (I could not even find that the Daxam Galactic Golem exists). I understand that is unfair to force you to find the scans for everything, but you could at least list the issue these feats are in so that I can maybe find better information. The fact that the wiki is so sparce actually supports my argument that they may have simply missed, or not been able to find a reasonable way to incorporate, these feats since I can find absolutely nothing about this stuff except the occasional forum discussion (which is not necessarily accurate). The reason I am asking the circumstances is so I can argue properly. With Goku the wiki has everything you could need to figure out the facts (dozens of random melee combos a character used once have their own pages) and they also have a clear place in the single continuity that one can find the episode of to check. With Superman I cannot know what is happening besides your statements uless I at least have an issue name or story name I can look into. As for your points, I am a bit confused. Doomsday>Darkseid>Superman, but Superman survived something that killed Doomsday? And if they use this than they must use power scaling, which makes way more sense since every character is using the same power souce, ki. Can you tell me where this fight with the alternate self is because that description is vague? Even then, Superman’s colliding punches can shatter time and space damage. By at most Super Saiyan 4, Goku can do that just by screaming. I didn’t question the Atomic Axe’s power; I questioned Superman tanking the hit. What I saw said that it could cut anything, even Superman, it’s just the wound wasn’t deep enough to be fatal; therefore this is not a point in favor of Superman. As for the Void Hound, you may be right. However two minor points of contention. First, this says according to legend, so to me that might not be a true feat. However, even if it is the story says the word “died” not destroyed. This could simply mean all life, and the planets’ ability to support life, was wiped out. And this does lack context. How did the Void Hound destroy the solar systems? Was it one at a time or all at once? Did it use a special weapon to do so? If so do we know that the hits Superman took are of the same power as said weapon? This is what I mean by conditional. Besides Goku can still do more than this weapon anyway (we know that a Kamehameha at Super Saiyan 2 is capable of destroying the entire Solar System in one shot, a very clear statement that can be reasonably used). Everything I have seen (on forums and on the Tvtropes page, again please help me find better sources) says that the retcon punches happened because Superboy Prime was punching the barriers between his dimension and the main universe. This is not the same as you claim (and even then punching the barriers of time and space is impossible to measure in comparison to punching a physical being). You say the Anti-Monitor can do so on his own but I have seen otherwise. I have seen that he uses a machine to convert positive matter into anti-matter and addes the anti-matter to his universe. Unfortunately Darkseid Wars is not applicable in the discussion of Death Battle due to being ongoing and not available at the time of the video’s release (plus if we use said info, we must also stick to New 52 Superman since it is unclear exactly which previously mentioned feats are still considered canon). The reason I use Super Saiyan 4 Goku and Kid Goku’s increased power is because that was relevant at the time, Super Saiyan God and such opens a whole new can of worms (the least of which being all of their base stat calculations are more bullshit then ever). Even so I doubt the Anti-Monitor’s power if, in Crisis on Infinite Earths, he can run out of it just by travelling to the beginning of the universe and needed a Big Bang to reset the universe. If he was an effortless universe buster than why didn’t that happen to the main universe immediately? In fact why would he need an army? If he can destroy a universe on his own because he has the power of a universe in him (other than say a machine that changes matter into anti-matter) than wouldn’t he use up the same amount of power as he obtains leaving him with only one univers’es worth of power? Come to think of it is converting a universe into anti-matter the same as destroying it? If not than its hard to measure its power. Unlike Solar System and Galaxy Busters, which only need to destroy object within a certain range, a Universe Buster has to completely wipe out the very existence of a universe (a universe is infinite so you cannot destroy every object in it in any conventional attack). This is harder to quantify, as they are not feats of raw power. And of course even if the Anti-Monitor can do this, it doesn’t necessarily mean he can punch with the same power, otherwise every punch would destroy the universe. As for T-vo, please explain what “affected” means. Does it have anything to do with a physical fight and can he use it while fighting an opponent? And finally we get to the Source Wall. It exploding is not as impressive as you say. Another can be made by the souls of the New Gods, and it only serves as the boundary between realities. Considering characters go between realities all the damn time, it is not that powerful. Said explosion would not be as impressive as his other feats. And again I will make the point that no one ever seems to address, all of these feats were IN SPACE. That is a major factor that limits the use of these feats and Death Battle’s measurements. Finally, the Strong as They Need to Be is the ultimate problem with all this. The “message” I get is that all of these feats are of vague concepts that could or could not be as impressive as they appear. Most of those reality-based feats are not shows of pure power. Retcon punches cause people and events to change, not kill with force. Physical feats are the only ones that apply to a fight (unless a character can use reality powers specifically to kill) because they are quantifiable. We should not accept the “idea” of a character because that is inherently limited in scope to one work. The “idea” of Wonder Woman is that she is a woman who is as strong as Superman, but she still lost to Rogue. The “idea” of the Hulk is that he can always get stronger and angrier, but we have seen otherwise. A fight is decided by what a character does and can do, not the vague intent behind them. The message they give contradicts itself. “Superman has no limits” but they show us that he has max lifting strength, speed, and endurance and that he needs to rely on yellow sun energy to do those feats, which are clear limits. Also there are at least 10 other characters in the DCU who are explicitly strongther than him, but he totally has no limits. People want a debate that can be reasonably answered, which is why the debate exists (Strong as They Need to Be is a copout). If they were truly going for Strong as They Need to Be they would use Silver Age Superman, which would make the entire fight pointless. And if we go by it, Strong as They Need to Be applies to the villains too; meaning all those Anti-Monitor and Superboy-Prime feats could just as easily be the result of the villains being made weaker, not being Superman made stronger (the Anti-Monitor in particular can take on the Multiverse’s greatest heroes together and be beaten to near death by Supergirl withnin the same story). Superman does have a reasonable, but powerful, consistent range of power (hence why Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter are said to as strong as him). All of this changes nothing. Whether or not Superman “should” have won by virtue of Strong as They Need to Be is irrelevant because he still won in the end. Why are the winner’s complaining? The argument for Goku is that by making up numbers (lazily, incorrectly, and attempting to apply normal physics that goes against the series’ internal logic) they made him WAY too weak, and that with power scaling and more thought into how his abilities work and the proper use of the strength and speed measurements Goku could be a match for, and possibly beat, Superman. Superman fans are complaining that they didn’t use vague feats (which if used would easily justify Goku getting power scaling further than it already should be) to make Superman even more OP because “how dare anyone ever question that Superman would win EVERY fight.” It seems a little unnescesary to me.
    • I'll still try to keep this short. All of my issues were in flash drive that died last year, and remembering the numbers is far more difficult than finding the scans. I'll explain the circustances the best I can, Superman and his alterante self were fighting and each of them were holding back less and less (the narration said they started with planet-busting punches) until hitting so hard that their punches kept constantly shattering time and space and affecting both of their realities, in fact they visually "broke" several DC timelines and realities. I already explained why the Doomsday > Darkseid > Superman changed, after Superman's training with Mongul II he became stronger than Doomsday, that's why he could surivive something Doomsday could not. Regarding the wikis, when I got my comicbook issues I stopped consulting several wikis because of their lack of information and/or the mistakes made at them (although I keep visiting DC wiki from time to time) something not even the Dragon Ball wiki is inmune to. Superman did tank the hit from the atomic axe, it only scratched his suit. Your point about the Void Hound legend does make sense since it's later stated when Superman and his friend faced the weapon that it could easily destroy stars, meaning it could have destroyed the stars in each Solar System which would cause a supernova that wiped out at least half of said Solar System. So it's likely that Superman tanked several starbusting blasts that time. Death Battle did include a scan from New 52 Superman at the explanation of the results, when he's strapped to a machine that makes him bench-press the entire weigth of the earth for 5 days with no rest and no sunlight; so they at least tried (but failed) to include "every official source", which means New 52 was also included (or meant to be included) in their research material. Putting aside the fact Anti-monitor wanted to kill his counter-part, there is this: Each time a DC villain needs to destroy a DC universe, they must first get to the center of every universe: the Earth (that's why Imperiex Prime needed to get to Earth to start a Big Bang and later remake the universe) which is always heavily guarded by the greatest heroes. I do remember Anti-monitor machines ultimately failed so he simply absorbed the energy of a lot of universes (I don't remember the amount) to increase his power to the point the was effectively invulnerable to physical damage and several dozens of times larger, what I remember from his defeat was that his plan failed because of the Spectre's time-manipulation, which costed Anti-monitor most of his power. Well that's a weird misconception about the Source Wall, but here's something to make it easier to understand: the Source Wall is considered as some kind of multiversal "dam"; it's at the edge of each universe serving as a "dam" that separates said universe from the rest, considering the theory of a doughnut shaped universe, that wall explosion is nearly universal level. And I wouldn't touch the subject of the souls of the new gods, since Darkseid once absorbed said souls to become almighty and stalemate The Source, in fact he tanked attacks from the source and yet Superman could temporarily break him. Regarding Superboy-prime, there's something you need to know, he's a pre-crisis character (destroying Solar System by accident or wounding beings that survived the Big Bang is their thing) who finds himself in post-crisis stories outclassing nearly everyone in power, in fact he once fought Monarch, who had the power of a Big Bang, and the fight ended in that Universe destruction (which Superboy-prime survived). And you're right about the "Strong as they need to be", it's applied both to the character and its villains and that's the reason why there has been so many retcons; that's the writer's excuse to "regulate" their power levels. As for T-vo, a reality-warper (can't remember his name) tried to warp reality to defeat Superman, Superman's T-vo helped him to no sell that power, that would explain why he could break Emperor Joker's head and why Metron stated Superman was powerful enough to change the outcome of The Almighty Source battle. Finally, the Maggedon Anti-sun; a Supernova is basically a star releasing all the energy it produced during its whole life in a single explosion (given the age of our sun, if it were to go supernova the explosion would be at least 12 Octillion megatons), just as the Maggedon was about to release all his Anti-sun energy to wipe out at least half of a galaxy, Superman sucked him dry, and instead of relying on the DC wiki, I'm relying on on the narration that states Maggedon's Anti-sun was going hypernova. As for Wonder Woman Vs Rouge; even Superman has trouble dealing with Parasite a DC villain who absorbs power/energy upon contact (which can also absorb Wonder Woman's energy), so it's not surprising that a similar character managed to put a fight against Wonder woman. What bothers me is that they didn't include any of this to justify Superman's victory, it's like they wanted people to question the results: it would changed things a little if people could have seen Superman gradual growth in might. But even if they put Goku Vs Pre-crisis Superman or Goku Vs Thanos, we would be having this very same discussion and we would never reach an agreement.
    • Thank you for going to the trouble of explaining this, as it makes it much clearer to understand what you are arguing. However there are still a few issues. First is the Doomsday>Darkseid>Superman deal. While you may be right about it, it doesn’t really explain anything. They are three characters with completely different physiologyies all trying to be compared equally. The exact reason that power-scaling works in Dragon Ball is because everything is quantifiable. Every character from DBZ onwards can use ki to hit harder, move faster, endure stronger attacks, fly, and shoot ki blasts, with the only differences being in the techniques they create from that ki. This means that a character with more ki than another is without a doubt stronger than the opponent, since they are able to utilize their powers in the exact same way but have a larger energy pool. With the DC example, everything is relative to other things and therefore hard to use to prove strength against a character from a completely different series. I am taking your word on the unreliability of the wikis but I will still use them for the well-documented stories as they seem like they could be accurate. And while the Dragon Ball wiki is not perfect, it is incredibly detailed and mostly consistent, meaning it is a good enough source, especially since it often cites the Kanzenshuu. I will take your word for it about the atomic axe, but I’m still skeptical, and even so you could argue that since cutting attacks and raw force attacks are different, and Goku doesn’t have any cutting attacks besides the under-utilized Destructo Disk, that it does not apply (Superman seems to get hurt by punches and energy blasts more frequently, to my knowledge). I didn't say Death Battle shouldn’t use New 52 (just that Darkseid Wars info does not apply to the discussion because it is new information at this moment). I do have a problem with the whole “every official source” thing though. Because of this, a character with more mediums and history is likely to win, simply because there is more chance for writer inconsistency to produce various strong feats to be meshed together into a composite uber character (see the mess that was Kirby and Link). The New 52 feat doesn’t matter, even with lack of sunlight, because bench pressing has no meaning in a fight. The problem is once they use New 52, that is the true official source to go by, since many things before have been retconned (although exactly how much is unclear). Goku has just the manga and the anime (and the movies that come with it) and since that is only one source plus extra it is easy to create the strongest version of the character (the one at the final battle of GT) versus an inconsistent patchwork character like Superman. With the Anti-Monitor, you do prove my argument about the issue with Universe Busting. If a character needs to go to a specific place and cause a specific event (go to Earth and cause a Big Bang) than he is not a Universe Buster under his own power). Cell’s Solar Kamehameha can destroy a Solar System whenever he chooses to fire it, which is under his own power, however the Anti-Monitor cannot truly be considered a Universe Buster in the same way, as he can’t just shoot a beam and make the universe disappear. Even ignoring that both the Anti-Monitor and Monarch suffer from the same issue. They are “powered” by something incredible, multiple universes and a Big Bang. This simply means that they have an exceptionally large power source that will not run out. It does not mean that they can use all of that energy at once. In DBZ Gohan says that he can feel a limitless pool of energy inside of Buu, and then Gohan completely curbstomps him. Buu can fight forever without getting tired and always regenerate, but he cannot release limitless energy. Think of it like a water pipe. You could have it pumping water from the Pacific Ocean and therefore keep it running for years but the amount of water that is gonna come out is limited by the pipe. This is why Supergirl is able to punch the Anti-Monitor to the point where he needs to recover; he cannot use all of his energy at once. This means that surviving attacks from/beating those opponent does not necessarily mean having more energy than what is powering these characters. The problem with the whole alternate-self battle and Source Wall thing is that they are completely made up ideas. How much energy is needed to break space and time can change from story to story (the Arc Gurren Laggan can punch so hard that it the knock back the opponent receives can break a whole in space and time, and there are still three forms stronger than it). How much energy is in said punches colliding (aside from the explicitly stated “more than planet-busting”) to cause said damage is unknown. And the Source Wall falls under the same issue and the ultimate problem, which you do acknowledge, Strong as They Need to Be. Darkseid with the souls of the New Gods, the Anti-Monitor, Doomsday, Monarch, and Superboy-Prime (especially him factoring in his Pre-Crisis nature making him completely ridiculous) are impossible to use as measuring sticks, because the writers attempting to “regulate” their powers means every fight involving them is questionable at best, and so ridiculous it should be ignored at worst. As for T-vo, I will again take your word for it, however it does not seem relevant. If it is used against a Reality Warper than is seems context sensitive and would be useless in a physical fight outside of reality changing events like the Almighty Source battle (and I doubt it has a connection to breaking Emperor Joker’s head because a reality warper’s are not limited to physical bodies, and therefore have no reason to make a strong one, meaning the attack Superman did had zero effect). As for Maggedon, wiki or not, the very fact that Anti-Sunlight is a form of sunlight already disqualifies the feat from being generally applied because a definitive Kryptonian trait is their ability to absorb sunlight (and get stronger and weaker as a result). This situation is tailored to Superman’s abilities and is not a feat of general endurance. It would be like judging the defense of a Flareon with the Flash Fire ability (which letss it absorb fire attacks) by only attacking it with Fire moves. It is completely immune to Fire but will still get wrecked by Water, so it is not a feat of general defense. With Wonder Woman I was more saying that if she was as strong as these feats, one punch would still have splattered Rogue on the pavement (plus, according to the wiki at least so you can correct me if I’m wrong, Parasite’s absorption is much stronger than Rogue’s). Ultimately even if they used these things, which you have to admit are very hard to use in comparison to another work of fiction, it would not change the fact that Goku was still severely screwed over in power (again I have much more of a problem with the projected power difference in the fight than the outcome of the fight itself). They clearly did not want people to question the result with all the take that’s they give to fan complaints and the very fact that before every battle they say “let’s end this debate once and for all” (and yet they somehow still try and invoke MST3K Mantra). What we saw is not a gradual growth of Superman, but rather a complete mess of extremes all over the damn place where, as they admit, the writers do whatever they want. And I disagree about the fact that this discussion would always be happening. Yes Pre-Crisis Superman would win, but that fight would be stupid because Pre-Crisis had no stable continuity and story for Superman and had thousands of random powers (again super-ventriloquism). People would complain because the fight would be pointless, since the only possible person who could fight such a laughably broken character would be someone like Squirrel Girl, who can beat any character as long as it is funny and happens of panel. As for Thanos or any such other fight, it is technically true that people will always debate the outcome (although Goku vs. Thanos is a much less appropriate fight considering they always try to have a theme to the fights) and that the sheer popularity of these characters and hype of the fight contributed to the massive backlash, the ultimate issue will always be with their treatment of Goku. Any fight would have this issue if Goku’s opponent was different but their analysis was the same. Goku should be able to effortlessly throw punches more than 16000X the force of an exploding planet, move faster than Superman via Instant Transmission, have superior agility, have better fighting technique and be able to use them to fight smarter than Superman (and be able figure out Superman’s strength’s and weaknesses based on his actions), and his 10X Kamehameha should be able to produce 1.76 Undecillion megatons of force. If that is not enough to win then fine, further complaints could be considered obsessed fanboys. However giving Goku not even a fraction of his full potential would always create this fan outrage. People felt like their favorite character was treated like crap (which also happened to Buu and Gaara, to similar outrage) and that the research was lazy, and often completely wrong, and full of confirmation bias for the winner they decided from the beginning. They might have known this was coming no matter what, but trying to prove Superman was even better, through unquantifiable means, as you said would not have changed anything.

    He-Man vs Lion-O 
  • He-Man's use of Battle Cat is justified and countered by Lion-O's mind control powers. So what should have been an unfair advantage benefiting He-Man ended up hurting him.
    • Not even that! Battle Cat was launched into the sky before the fight even officially started and didn't land again until after it had ended.
  • It is possible that the Power of Grayskull could counter the Eye of Thundera long enough for He-Man to destroy the Eye considering BOTH magical forces use nearly unlimited power. This is how He-Man survived such a blast. Also consider the fact that He-Man have performed impossible feats in the past anyways.
  • Isn't Battle Cat eating Lion-O's body technically cannibalism?

    Robocop vs Terminator 
  • Where did Terminator's plasma rifle come from? The films explicitly state that non-organic (well, non-living) material can't be sent back in time.
    • Look's like it was stored inside the torso. Mind you, the plasma rifle shouldn't be collapsible like that, but sometimes details have to be excused to cover all the variables for the characters.
    • The hosts like using as many weapons as possible for a warrior so they don't appear to have overlooked anything. This is why SS 4 Goku is addressed despite many people considering it non-canon or Luke's short lightsaber despite it not being in the movies.
    • It was inside him, in his chest, as inorganic material covered in organic material can go through time travel, it's how the metal terminator was able to after all.
  • The fight is meant for entertainment and not what would actually happen, but why did Robocop have ordinance grenades in his right leg when the rundown specifically says they're in the left leg? Did the animator not know that and just not think to have Robo change out the weapon arm for the regular one first?
    • The fight had some obvious visual bugs, but I doubt this would be an issue for the outcome of a fight.
  • While the Terminator has a Coltan alloy, it is only derived from a half percentage of coltan and is only designed to give him resistance to heat. Remember that the T850 is a mass produced machine while Robocop was a well funded single project. The quality of the Terminator's metals would be inferior than Robocop's because the T850 are mass produced, meaning that the Skynet factories cut costs by limiting the quality of the metal. This also explains why Terminator is slightly heavier than Robocop yet has inferior armor. The thicknesses of the armor also were not addressed. Terminator's endoskeleton also has more gaps in its structural design, which explains why it would be vulnerable to point blank explosions like Kyle Reese's pipebomb.
  • It should be noted that Robocop's face is simply his old face over a metal skull, NOT his old skull or head. That means Terminator could not simply shoot Robocop in the face to kill him.
  • Any fully automatic weapon can jam pretty easily if the bullet rounds jam inside the barrel. The minigun is no exception. It is also possible that Robocop may have jammed the gun's rotatory mechanisms to prevent the barrels from spinning.
  • The answer is obviously Rule of Drama, but wouldn't it been a bit more practical if Robocop just threw Terminators soon-to-go-kaboom remains into the air for it to explode instead of spending several suspenseful seconds strapping the remain onto his jetpack? The guy can hurl a car with ease (which he did in the fight) so an estimated 200-250 pounds of Terminator remains shouldn't be difficult to send into high altitudes. Like I said, I'm well aware it's for drama purposes only but its just an observation.
    • Because what goes up comes down. It's possible if he threw him that he would just fall back on Robocop and kill him. With a jetpack you know he's not coming down.
    • Yes, that's one way of looking at it, but the jetpack was damaged from T-850s grenade launcher and when it was shown again, sparks were emanating from it, but luckily for Robo, it went as planned.
      • It's likely that most of the damage was to the jetpack's control systems. The engine still worked, he just couldn't steer the damn thing. He couldn't use it for it's intended purpose but it could still go in a straight line, which is just what he needed at that point.
  • It was mentioned in the breakdown that Robocop survived explosions before, among other things. Could he have survived Terminator's hydrogen cells exploding as well? Or would that have resulted in Double K-O otherwise?
    • It is a relatively small nuclear explosion, if Robocop threw Terminator and then seek cover or hotwire a car (which a robot mind probably could do easily) it is possible. At the same time there is nothing to confirm or deny this.

    Luigi vs. Tails 
  • Didn't Wiz and Boomstick say Tails couldn't fly forever? He stays in the air for extended periods of time during the battle yet shows no visible signs of tiring out. Any possible explanations for this contradiction?
    • Actually he did tire out a few times. When Luigi went invisible, Tails was fighting him without flying. They were falling until the last minute. Also Tails' stamina is somewhat inconsistent but still accurate to the Death Battle if you compare it to Tails' Adventure, Tails' Skypatrol, the animes, and some flying missions like the Drill Mobile boss battle in Sonic 3. In these depictions, Tails can fly for about 1 minute, and when he lands on the ground he regains all his stamina very quickly.
  • Why was the Negative Zone so horribly underplayed here? All it did was slow Tails down, it didn't result in any clumsiness, dizziness, or anything else... it gave Luigi a huge opening even before the whole "suddenly, bomb!" and it was wasted on Luigi somehow missing the currently-very-slow Tails with his hammer.
    • Luigi can't control the Negative Zone, just summon it up. He got unlucky and got an effect that wasn't really that bad.
      • However, that is not to attribute Tails' win to luck, as he had the intelligence to think of throwing a bomb at Luigi which destroyed the Negative Zone and sent both fighters flying away. Even if the Negative Zone was working perfectly and inflicting bad status effects on Tails left and right, I still think he could have thrown that bomb and thus still have won the battle. After all, I don't recall Wiz and Boomstick saying the Negative Zone made an opponent completely helpless.
      • As stated below, Tails didn't throw the bomb, he rigged Luigi's weapon to explode ahead of time(which is far more clever), and it happened to pay off.
      • The only time luck as been an issue is the bs Peach-Zelda ending. But the Negative Zone is so random that it isn't very reliable unless done point blank (and tails wasn't directly next to Luigi at the time). Also Luigi didn't immediately realize that Tails rigged a bomb onto his vacuum so Luigi didn't throw it soon enough for him to escape. I'm actually surprised that Luigi even realized it was a bomb that Tails planted.
    • The Negative Zone also slows Luigi down a bit, so the speed gap was only decreased, not eliminated. In addition, we do see Tails get affected by tripping at the start of the Negative Zone, but that became irrelevant since he immediately started taking to the air.
      • Actually, Luigi isn't slowed down attack-wise or speed-wise while inside the negative zone, it merely creates a lower gravity which makes him jump and fall slower then usual.
    • Because of Tails' speed he was able to get to the edge of the Negative Zone rather quickly, so whatever effects the Zone would do would be at its minimal.
      • However, if this was based on the game that the Negative Zone was released in, Super Speed isn't enough to break out of the zone. You can regularly catch Sonic, after all. At the same time, given the length of time the zone is active, Tails should consider himself damn lucky he didn't plummet to the floor when he tried to fly, amongst other irritating effects. He was in there for quite some time.
      • There is no questioning that Tails lucked into a fairly harmless Negative Zone, it happens from time to time.
    • It is also strange that Luigi had wasted time trying to suck Tails back up. Once your in that zone, if you don't leave quickly enough, consider yourself a goner, and he was in there for some time. Also, the effects of the Zone linger even if you escape, but new effects won't appear.
      • It is very possible for anyone to escape the Zone, especially someone as fast as Tails. Luigi just didn't want him to escape.
  • Talk about the Negative Zone being underplayed. Luigi had the ability to control lightning, which is a specific weakness of Tails. What power could have possibly been a better match for the two tailed menace? That's the equivalent of Superman having to fight a monster composed entirely of Kryptonite. He should have spammed lightning all over the place to send Tails cowering in fear thus allowing for an easy kill. And yes, I saw that he did use lightning, but he used it to try to directly harm Tails, which probably wouldn't be as effective than if it were used as a psychological weapon like I suggested.
    • Chalk it up to the fighters not knowing each others' abilities, skills, and weaknesses in canon. Though Luigi isn't the smartest combatant in the show's history, I think he wouldn't hesitate to use his lightning-related powers to their fullest if he knew Tails was afraid of lightning. It was like Goku not knowing Superman got his power from the sun; if he had known lack of sunlight was a bad thing for Supes, he might have succeeded in keeping him under the clouds which formed for some reason when he went into Super Saiyan 4 and could have won the fight.
      • First of all this is the Tails folder, not Goku. Second, if Goku knew Superman would be stronger he would have allowed it because DBZ heroes tend to fight honorable or just be stupid enough to allow their foe to power up- like Freeza going 100%.
      • That was merely an example using Goku, whoever posted that meant nothing more.
    • It's not a weakness, it's a very inconsistently portrayed fear. Tails himself has lightning based attacks in some games, and regularly flies through thunderstorms in an open-topped airplane. Sometimes he's afraid, other times he's completely unaffected.
  • Considering Luigi got to bring the Ghost-Sucker because it's considered a major part of his power set why (other than Tails was going to win and they wanted a fight not a slaughter) didn't Tails start the battle or at some point summon the Hurricane? It's not like with many Death Battles where they apparently forgot someone had a given tool and most of the modern games that feature Tails have him piloting his killer transforming mech.
    • The Mech from Sonic Adventure 2? First it's called The Cyclone. Second, the hosts agreed that the combatants were not allowed to use their mechs or vehicles because Tails would have an obvious advantage.
  • Regarding any concerns about Tails being able to fly in the Negative Zone, there is evidence in the pre-fight analysis to back up Tails. Jigglypuff can be seen in the Negative Zone's description clearly flying out of it. If Luigi didn't use his vacuum, Tails would have easily escaped it. Also Jigglypuff was not crippled by the Zone's effects while flying, meaning it is possible for Tails to have done so to (even if it's from good luck).
    • Indeed, staying airborne in the Negative Zone is actually the smartest option. Of all the Zone's effects, only two have any effect or airborne victims: slow-motion, and a dizzy spell (which cancels out any further double jumps/flight time you have left). Luigi simply wasn't lucky enough to get that second one.
  • Is it possible they undermined Luigi's strength by deducing it as, "struggling to pick up a giant radish" from Super Mario Bros. 2... which was a dream/"dream world"? In the normal games both Mario and Luigi are capable of smashing through solid rock with their bare hands and hurl very large enemies (Bowser, King Bob-omb, a castle though that may just be for comedy)... you might say Gameplay and Story Segregation and we don't know if the rock-shattering punch calculations could bring him up to terms with Tails gadget-strength, but it's got to be more than that dream world giant radish thing.
    • Yeah, it's sometimes kind of weird how the show determines the winner. Between tv shows, movies, tie-in comics, crossovers, fan theories, and Word Of God, there is often no "true" version of a character that everyone can agree on. Rarely do the hosts have a definite "This is who X is and what he/she/it can do." to work with, a situation complicated by the fact that that instead of just simply picking one version of a character to use, they will frequently cobble together bits and pieces of canon while ignoring others to create a kind of Composite Character whose exact specifications are unique to the show. Goku's abilities and equipment in the season 1 finale, for example, are taken from the original manga, the anime adaption, and the movies he is in.
      • Word Of God explains this as them simply using Luigi at his weakest as a joke in comparison to Tail's strength. They did not base his strength on that in the actual fight, although they did neglect to clarify.
  • Why did Shadow and Sonic get their Chaos Emerald powered super modes but Tails didn't?
    • I can offer a few reasons. A) They mentioned that since Mario and Sonic's power ups cancelled each other out, they would only use sidekick-exclusive power ups in this fight. If we stretch the definition of a power ip to include super modes, then Super Tails is excluded as Emerald powered super modes are jot exclusive to him. B) Luigi was already severely outclassed in strength, speed, and equipment. Giving Tails a Super Mode would have been overkill. C) They wanted to nerd Tails a little to make the fight interesting.
    • The same reason Luigi didn't get to use the Starman or become Giga Luigi.

    Starter Pokemon Royale 
  • Consider that Sweet Scent would remove Charizard's speed advantage and while Venasaur and Blastoise have similar speed, Blastoise has superior defenses. Venasaur's Solar Beam is also too slow to counter the strongest moves of the other two; Hydro Pump and Flare Blitz. So like the battle suggests, both Venasaur and Charizard are very vulnerable but Blastoise has superior defenses that allow him to endure the match. Also with the move Protect, Blastoise could easily block Solar Beam.
    • If Charizard used his Smokescreen to counter Sweetscent then Blastoise would still be able to launch an attack while the other two wasted their turn. If Venasaur didn't use Sweet Scent but Charizard used Smoke Screen, then Blastoise can block it with Protect. Again this is only one out of thousands of scenarios but Charizard loses its evasive advantage in most scenarios.
  • Since super-effective moves do more damage, it makes sense that the pokemon who can endure the longest had the best chance of survival. It is true that Venasaur has an advantage against Blastoise, but remember that Charizard is also fighting and, like the battle shows, Charzard can attack either one. So it is difficult for one of the pokemon to spam supereffective moves when, at the beginning of the fight, they have to deal with the other combatant as well.
    • Also the majority of Venasaur's offensive moves are physical, and Blastoise has a high defense along which increases along with Iron Defense.
  • What was that smoke-like stuff that came out of Venusaur to wake Blastoise up? Seriously, it doesn't look like Smokescreen since that's Charizard's move, and it doesn't look like any of it's powder moves since it's black and dark gray.
    • Venusaur is a plant. It was his dusty, charred remains blowing in the wind.
  • It should be noted that Blastoise didn't use Rest in the fight, he simply fell asleep from Sleep Powder.
  • While the win was understandable, I find the execution of Charizard odd, If they're going to talk about Pokedex entries, Why does Blastoise fill Charizard with water until he explodes, he's clearly using Hydro Pump, the move they explicitly noted can cut steel and has 90,000 psi. at point blank the shot should have just vaporized Zard's head.
    • I think rule of (tasteless) funny is to blame; the death was a little ridiculous/slapsticky, but I do see your point. They've contradicted their research before. Remember when Doomguy walked towards Master Chief even though the former can run 57 MPH?
    • There have been a few times in the anime where a Pokemon gets non-lethally inflated by water attacks; Misty's Staryu did it to Meowth in episode six. Perhaps the guys just saw that and ran with the idea?
  • Didn't the hosts violate their own rules when they rained candy on the wild Pokemon (the "no outside help" rule, in which the hosts were technically helping each fighter)? Why couldn't they just have 3 fully evolved and leveled up Pokemon meet in the first place? Fett and Samus didn't start out in their underwear and have weapons and armor rain down randomly, and Goku's Power Pole didn't bonk him on the head straight out of nowhere.
    • Uh, no? It was just a joke to get it started. They specifically said it was the final forms of the Pokemon. The fight didn't even start until they were fully evolved.
    • Because it was a way to get them from 1 to 100 without involving fighting, and thus effort values.
  • It was mentioned that Blastoise won because his defense enabled him to endure the fight better. Why didn't Venasaur not win then? He has the ability to heal, which is an ability that I've always been a sucker for. I like to call it "the poor man's invincibility", as a Healing Factor means you can take an any amount of damage as long as you spread it out over an appropriate number of intervals. This is not a fanboy rant; Master Chief's regenerating energy shields were given as a reason why he won (although I will concede that superior armor was also in play), and Tails' medi-bot was concluded to make up for his weaker durability compared to Luigi. While a healing factor alone doesn't guarantee victory, would you rather choose between "You'll just take a little bit of damage." or "You may get your arm blown off due to your poor defense, but if you hide behind a rock for a few seconds it will grow straight back." if enduring a fight was your goal? It's the ability to reduce damage taken versus the ability to make that damage completely irrelevant by getting back up to 100% HP.
    • The fight was too intense and quick for the Healing Factor to add up enough to ensure victory. Venasaur did not, as you say, have the time to "hide behind a rock" and heal all the damage done to him.
    • No amount of healing would help Venusaur against Charizard, and it doesn't have that many "Intervals" to heal itself as Synthesis has only 5pp, add to that that it's countered by Rain Dance, making it weaker, and Leech seed being easily removed via Rapid spin and Venusaur's healings aren't as decisive as they may seem.

    Fulgore vs Sektor 
  • No, seriously, why Sektor and not one of the other fighters like Cyrax or Smoke?
    • Likely due to Sektor having a "flashier", more high-tech arsenal; Rule of Cool to make it a more entertaining watch basically.
      • Or because, ya know, the battles are viewer suggestions and there was someone (possibly multiple someones) who wanted to see Sektor fight Fulgore.
      • It's also likely that it's because both are rivals to the blue-clad ninjas (Jago and Sub-Zero respectively) of their series that have lost to them over and over again
      • Cyrax vs. Fulgore would have been a total no-contest because of Cyrax's ability to blow up the Earth as part of one of his fatalities in the earlier games, the strength required for which far surpasses nearly every Death Battle combatant to date (minus Superman, Goku, Thor, etc.) Smoke, on the other hand, is much less reliant on his technological abilities than Sektor is, making him less similar to Fulgore than Sektor is.

    Godzilla vs Gamera 
  • Even if Godzilla's smallest depiction (at 20,000 tons) was compared to Gamera's largest (10,000 tons) Godzilla would still be larger than him. It makes more sense this way considering Godzilla's obviously superior physical strength and the fact that Gamera needs to be lightweight if he can fly at mach 3.
    • The size and weight of a Kaiju has close to nothing to do with its attainable speed. If it ever became at all necessary Godzilla could reach that speed but to use established cannon the Godzilla Wiki rates King Ghidorah at Mach 3 as well.
  • While it is true that Gamera could regenerate when taking in the mana he probably concluded that using his chest beam would be more effective in finishing Godzilla off immediately. Gamera could tell how durable Godzilla was and probably feared that if the match was prolonged that it would be worse.
  • While it is true that Gamera could use his shell for defense, he rarely uses it even in his own films. Besides Godzilla can fire his atomic-breath at a high rate and the beam has been shown being powerful enough to harm armored opponents including Gigan and Mechagodzilla 3.
  • Why didn't Gamera attempt his normal technique and flee?
    • Because if it gets to the point where a character has to flee (as opposed to retreating as part of a feint, for example), then it could be said that they're just no cut out to be the winner. And besides, it would be a little cheap if characters with a big advantage in speed could just simply run away; Death Battle wants conclusions.
    • Plus, they pointed that Godzilla generally shoots down any retreating enemies, and likely the same would have happened to Gamera. One could argue he'd be too fast, but the Godzilla clip did show him destroying King Ghidorah's wing as he fled, and since those two are both at Mach 3, the same speed, Gamera simply wouldn't have escaped.
  • Why didn't Gamara just leave Godzilla in space? Why bother trying to pile drive him back into Earth at all? Seems that would have been game since Godzilla would've needed some very precise timing to use his atomic breath to get back into Earth orbit. Said timing may have been too precise for the very stupid Godzilla whereas Gamara would've been smart enough to figure it out on his own.
    • The animation at the end is just for entertainment, but this question does beg an answer. Godzilla wouldn't need precise timing, he'd need incredible aim (aim in the opposite direction of earth and blast), which Godzilla has displayed incredible aim. Godzilla's intelligence is also sufficient to figure this out as he was able to discover his breath's locomotive capabilities in the first place, a much bigger leap in reasoning power than repeated application of that capability.

    Captain America vs Batman 
  • It is true that Batman can sneak around Superman but this doesn't change Spiderman's episode or outcome. Superman's senses are impressive but different than what Spiderman is; the ability to 'see' things directly behind him, reacting to danger and basically being a 6th sense. This is NOT the same as Superman's, which are human senses without limit, but still no 6th sense (except for that 'seeing souls' thing.)
    • The Shockgloves probably would be no different than the normal taser that Batman used in the fight anyways. Even if the argument could be made that the gloves are stronger, they are only lethal from prolonged exposure according to the Arkham games, and Spiderman gets electrocuted by Electro multiple times, who uses lethal electricity, yet Spiderman can survive the blasts.
  • There is no rule in Death Battle against stealing others' weapons. Batman has to fight gunfighters ALL THE TIME. He perfected the art of disarming, and he clearly has the versatility, stealth and intelligence that would allow it. Batman probably understood America's dependence on the shield, so he simply exploited his weakness, and Batman wins dozens of fights from exploiting weaknesses.
    • This would also explain why Batman had an easier time dealing with Captain America than he did with Spider-Man since Batman can understand the weakness Cap has but not understand the weaknesses Spider-Man has.

    Tigerzord vs Gundam Epyon 
  • So what happens now? Does Zechs have to take over the Power Ranger's job to fight Zedd? I guess he secured himself future employment any ways.
  • How did Noin get a Vayete? Where did it come from? I'm serious there was only one, maybe two Vayates in the series at most, and both were destroyed without Noin ever piloting them.
  • Why is the Tigerzord presented and slow and clumsy instead of graceful and super fast? While it seems questionable that the Morphin Grid actually hands out powers equally instead of each team having access to whatever they have access to Tommy was explicitly given access to super speed. The Tigerzord was given the ability to match him move for move (actual 100% Cannon) Now the Tigerzord looks clumsy because Power Rangers is live action and there is only so much flipping around that a guy wearing a clunky costume can do and Epyon has the advantage of being animated. However Tommy is supposed to be a world class martial artist. Tigerzord should have some ridiculous moves on par with what the rangers do in their normal fights.
  • In addition as Naruto's Rock Lee vs Sasuke fight demonstrated clearly there is a difference between being able to see something coming because you have magical eyes or probability engines but that is different from being fast enough to do anything other than curse about it.
  • Another thing about the Tigerzord is that the height listed isn't accurate because Power Rangers didn't use the same scale as the original Sentai. When the Dinozords first came out, tech specs on the box puts the original Megazord at 333 feet tall. Also, the Thunder Megazord is really just the original Megazord reconfigured meaning the Tigerzord would have to in the same scale to combine with them. So, while the exact height was never given, the Tigerzord should be over twice as tall as what was given.

    Scorpion vs Ryu 
  • Can someone explain to me the limits of Scorpion's immortality and his 'get stronger in hell' trait, because I never recalled seeing it in Mortal Kombat canon. Spawn and Superman's immortality is frequently depicted, but Scorpion: he can still be killed by fatalities. Also having the ability of 'continuously getting stronger' doesn't automatically make someone powerful or indestructible, as seen with Broly from DBZ who shares the same trait of 'continuously getting stronger'.
    • According to the Death Battle's text, Scorpion "cannot be destroyed by physical attacks". Half the fatalities should prove that to be total bullshit, but I find most fatalities are of dubious canonicity in the first place — one fatality in the series involves breaking the foe's neck, and it works on Scorpion (not to mention robots) for no reason. With all that in mind, I believe (don't quote me on this) that Scorpion's immortality involves respawning in the Netherrealm, which is a boon if he's already in the Netherrealm. As for "continuously getting stronger", keep in mind Ryu has no way out of the Netherrealm on his own; worst case scenario, Scorpion could just teleport away and wait a few hours or days until he's doubled or tripled in power, then crush a badly-dehydrated Ryu with no effort.
    • In Mortal Kombat Deadly Alliance, you would see in Scorpion's Bio that it said "his strength increases the longer he remained there". In MK: Deceptions, Scorpion mentions this during the Konquest Mode. And the final proof, in Shaolin Monks, it showed Scorpion fighting in the Netherrealm, being defeated there, and coming back moments later stronger. He does get stronger in the Netherrealm, you just don't get to experience it in the games.
  • What do Ryu and Scorpion even have in common aside from being the mascots of their respective series?
    • While I think most would argue Liu Kang or Sub Zero are more the mascot of MK than Scorpion they are both major characters in two of the most iconic fighting games all time. They are both incredible martial artists in their respective worlds. They should have "comparable" power levels. Most Death Battles make at most slightly more sense than that.
      • The concept of a battle between Ryu and Scorpion has been kicked around the internet long before even Death Battle was around. Mortal Kombat Vs Street Fighter for example has the two battle each other in the second episode. Likely there were quite a few people who suggested these two over others for this reason. Also, Scorpion is more of a mascot for Mortal Kombat than Liu Kang or Sub-Zero, being pretty much the Creator's Pet in more recent games.

    Deadpool vs Deathstroke 
  • Deadpool calling the Superman vs Goku match 'biased' is a joke and shouldn't be considered an official statement by the Screwattack staff or Deathbattle creators. If anything it was a nod to the flamewars that erupted in response to the match: like how Deadpool acknowledged the potential flamewar from the result of his match.
  • One of the main reasons why the Carbonadium sword was even used was to have an actual death occur in the fight, since both fighters are basically immortal to some degree. But even then, a decapitation with a normal sword could have been enough to kill Deathstroke: at least in the given time. Remember that some characters like Raiden and M Bison also classify as having some level of immortality as well: but the fight still needs to end in a way that creates a legitimate or temporary death. This was basically to stop DC fans from shouting 'Oh Slade isn't actually dead so the fight isn't actually over'.
  • T He Nth Metal Armor 'slightly" increases Deathstrokes power? It allowed him to go toe to toe with Lobo, who can fight on even footing with Superman - that is only a slight increase?
    • Isn't that the New52 Version of Lobo that Nth Metal Slade fought? Has new Lobo even met New Superman?
    • And Slade didn't match Lobo's strength; his Nth Metal and "promethium" armor withstood Lobo's strikes. Wouldn't change much since Deadpool's carbonadium sword is able to decapitate Wolverine (who has adamantium bones). And because the very first wound inflicted to Deathstroke during the battle was made with his own promethium sword
  • Deadpool describes 2012 as a "good year for cinema". Wait, what does he mean by that?
    • Probably something about this movie, which was made by Marvel. Just like Deadpool.

    Kirby vs Buu 
  • I feel it necessary to explain why this match up makes absolutely no sense.
    • Offense: For Kirby to win, he would need to legitimately kill Buu. This is a difficult task that even SSJ3 Goku couldn't do alone, instead he needed a Spirit Bomb from the combined power of all the Z fighters and humans on Earth. Since Kid Buu was able to easily survive his own planet burst, that Spirit Bomb needed to be stronger than the planet burst, and I don't recall Kirby's ability to destroy planets single handedly. Speaking of his moves; Angry Explosion and Revenge Death Bomber are basically a nuclear blast, Chocolate Beam can basically kill anyone weaker than Super Vegeto, while Absorption can basically do the same thing but more effectively, Buu's Kamehameha has to be on par with SSJ3 Goku (who was pointed out to have enough power to destroy planets), the Human Extinction Attack killed basically all humans on the planet within minutes, and of course the Planet Burst which has been described as powerful enough to 'kill the Earth 10 times'.
    • Defense: As already stated, Buu can survive blasts which can destroy planets and recover like nothing happen. Even if incinerated to a fine mist, he will always come back unless you somehow manage to overpower him significantly with some energy attack. While he can fatigue, this only occurs after a very prolonged battle. Kirby, can be killed by a fat penguin and his wooden mallet.
    • Strength: As fighter Kirby, if you consider the minigames like Crackity Hack canon (and considering that Soccer Peach and Cooking with Scorpion is considered canon, this lunacy must be as well) then Kirby is physically strong enough to punch a fissure into a planet, basically cutting said planet in half. If Buu's strength is compared with Goku's predicted limits, then Fighter Kirby could be considered stronger. BUT: Kirby can easily lose his transformations, Buu is still faster than him, Buu can keep him away with projectiles, and most importantly Buu can recover from any blunt force unless he is exhausted. Without Fighter Kirby, Kirby cannot overpower Buu with his strength.
    • Speed: Buu can easily reach supersonic speeds, meaning that Kirby needs one of his air-rides or Jet-Kirby just to keep up, and even then Buu learned instant transmition.
    • In conclusion, this match is basically the equivalent of normal Shadow vs Vegeta, and we all know that SSJ2 Vegeta lost to Fat Buu.
  • Responding to the above: I'd like to see you work out who's better in the "Eating" category, since that's the gimmick they're going to market this episode on — two fat pink voraciously-overconsuming retards. Further, how would the Star Rod boost Kirby's damage output?
    • To add on to this, there's also the fact that Death Battle will also take elements from Smash Bros. when it comes to Nintendo characters, such as the Fox being given the Reflector, Fire Fox, and Fox Illusion even though he only used those in Smash Bros. games. Considering Kirby has some abilities from his game like Stone and Hammer, he won't be completely destroyed. Another thing to note is that there have been Curbstomp battles on this show all the time, like Starscream vs. Rainbow Dash or He-Man vs. Lion-O
    • Kirby is undoubtedly the superior in power copying by eating. Buu for all the credit he's given in that category doesn't seem to do it. He absorbs raw power and a measure of the personality of the victim. He doesn't for example ever demonstrate having Dabura's stone spit attack which an insanely useful power. He can also be weakened by absorbing someone with a good heart. The only truly detrimental power Kirby has ever displayed is sleep. In many cases Kirby displays above and beyond any displayed by the original wielder. His sword, hammer and fighter abilities are all easily displayed as being better than the source.
    • I hate to nitpick but,Buu has never seen Dabura's stone spit(since dabura never used it against him) second Buu never absorbed Dabura. so the whole first half of you argument makes no sense.
      • Actually, Dabura DID use his stone spit on him just before Buu turned him into a cookie. Dabura spat two globs of spit at Buu, who dodged it. That was not a ki attack though, that was a magic attack which Buu could not mimic.
  • This fight may not be as one sided as you may think if fact most people sees Kirby winning this fight
    • You hear that sound? That's the sound of my faith in humanity dying.
      • It is a shocker. This battle will likely be determined primarily by a single attack. Either the Hyper Nova can destroy Buu or it can't.
  • Well I guess I'll be the first the ask how did kirby reflecting Buu's planet burst manage to kill buu when Buu has been shown surviving his own planet burst multiple times?
    • Because it sent him to the sun.
      • Which is still hard to believed that actually worked. Since Buu can survive being completely incinerated into vapor so long as he is not completely atomized. and even then guys like Cooler and Broly has survive being knocked into suns (or in cooler's case whole parts of him). so how that actually worked is anyone's guess.
      • Broly did not survive, he was killed. Check the movie again. Baby from Dragon Ball GT was also killed by the Sun. Note that Baby could also regenerate and was way stronger than Kid Buu.
      • So if Broly was "Killed" how did he came back to earth to fight Gohan, Goten, and Trunks in Dragon Ball Z: Broly - Second Coming ? you should check out that movie. Second, Baby is a parasite that can't even fight without a host on his own is way weaker than Buu in fact he's weaker than Goten. Third what makes you think Baby has a better Healing factor than Buu?
      • It was in the second film that Broly got sent to the sun, not the first. In the first film, Broly got punched in the stomach and survived, in the second film, he was sent to the sun and died. You seem to have mixed up the two films. As for Baby, I never said he had a better healing factor, just that he could also regenerate (and yet was still killed by the sun). The only Dragon Ball villain to have survived being sent to the sun is Cooler (which makes no sense as Broly was much stronger than him). Bottom line: It actually does make sense that being sent to the sun would kill him (How the heck Cooler survived I have no idea but Torriyama is just a man and to err is human).
      • But as mention before Majin Buu has and can survived being completely Vaporized!
      • I'm not sure but wouldn't the heat of the sun snuff out the vapor? (heck, in the video, the smoke left behind immeadiatly dissipates).
      • It actually isn't that far-fetched that Cooler survived considering his litte brother Frieza survive being cut in half and blasted by Goku and having planet blow up while him on it and left in the dead of space for weeks. is possible that their species can survive being seriously wounded after all few people can survive such treatment. As for how Cooler survived apparently being "sandwitched" between his attack and the sun wasn't enough to completely destroy him and the pieces of him that survive got absorbed by the big Gete star and Cooler's consciousness took it over.And as for why Broly didn't, well it was establish that sayains can't survive to long in space anyway.So Broly was screwed even if he did survive it. Also Broly doesn't need to be completely destroyed in order to die. Anyway the point is since whole launching into sun thing wasn't enough to completely destroy and put down Cooler what are the chance of it being able completely destroy Majin Buu.
      • Regeneration abilities aside, Buu is actually much less durable than most other Dragonball characters. Wiz even pointed out that he was affected by ordinary bullets (and so was Super Buu for that matter). Three villains were sent to the sun, Broly, Cooler, and Baby. Only Cooler survived and that was just a tiny part of his face. Given that Buu is actually much less durable than those three, it asctually makes sense he would not survive. PS: Broly was sent inside of the sun rather than just touching the surface, which explains why he died and Cooler lived.
      • And as fans had pointed that makes no sense. Durability in DBZ doesn't work like that. Dbz characters use ki to increase their durability. Yes Buu has allowed bullets to affect him (mostly likely because he knows he can easily regenerate from it) but Goku has also allowed pebbles being thrown at him by Krillan, doctor needles and even a slap to the face by Bulma to affect him. and yet he can block trunk's sword with one finger without a single paper cut and can be thrown clean through mountain without a problem. Buu is the same way he has been affected bullets and yet was able to run clean through cars and buildings and mountains without a problem and survived a full power blast from Dabura and SSJ3 Goku without even needing to regenerate. Not to mention according to their own logic in their Goku vs Superman Death Battle,since Buu has can fire blasts that can destroy planets without suffering any recoil then he must be able to withstand it himself(this is what to use to figure out Goku's max damage out) and Buu is in fact able to fire out blasts that can destroy worlds without being sent flying by the recoil. Feats that should be impossible if he was anywhere near as fragile as they claim he was. Heck even Gt Pan survives a fall off a cliff directly on her head twice with a problem and yet getting with a tin can almost make her cry. Not surprised they overlooked something like that. If I didn't know better I would say they was being bias, but they most likely just that incompetent either way that's just one more claim they made that isn't true or that doesn't make sense. Thanks for pointing that out by the way.

    • and that piece of him on the ground? wasn't it was stated that even a single piece him remains he can use it to reform...even if kirby ate it.
      • That wasn't a part of Buu himself, it was his shoe. Enough "buuness" for Kirby to get his chocolate beam, but not actually a piece of Buu himself.
      • I would say the shoe or his clothing in general is definitely a part of Buu seeing how his clothing stretches and regenerates along with him and even grows out from him at times. so why he couldn't regenerate from is anyone guess.
      • Even if Buu couldn't regenerate from his clothing you mean to say there was somehow not a single cell or atom left of him in that shoe?
      • If there had been anything left in the shoe, I think Kirby would have known to destroy it after seeing Buu regenerate from being blown to bits.
      • How would he know Buu can regenerate from a single cell? no foreknowledge rule remember, Just regenerate from being blown to bits doesn't necessarily mean he can regenerate from a cell, kirby not batman nor is he some master detective.
      • Well Kirby may not have known that for sure, but after seeing Buu regenerate twice before (once after being cut in half and once after being blown to bits), and considering how much trouble Buu gave him, why would he want to take even the slightest chance?
      • Kirby is not a strategist if i recall was list one of his weakness he is just a child.it's Doubtful he can piece together the exact mechanics behind Buu regeneration even Vegeta couldn't do that during his fight with Buu or piccolo for that matter.
      • Yeah, but at that point, no one had actually seen Buu survive being blown to bits. The most anyone had seen, was Buu get a large hole blown in his stomach. Kirby actually DID see Buu get blown to bits and survive, so at the very least, he would have known Buu's regeneration capabilities better than Vegeta or Piccolo at that point.
      • Yes, and after piccole saw Majin regenerating from Vegeta final attack he told Gotenk to destroy his piece destroy ever piece of Buu and even then that didn't work since piccolo didn't know buu can regenerate from mere atoms, How could he? simply because he saw from regenerating being blown to bits ? as mention before it is very very doubtful kirby with mind of a mere child piece together info faster than Piccolo can.
      • But serious, Is there a reason why he couldn't just regenerate and continue the fight?
    • How about this, why didn't the Planet Burst simply detonate when it came into contact with Buu like most energy attacks are shown to do that in Dragon Ball? Also, shouldn't it have been well within Buu's ability to just deflect the Planet Burst (which Fat Buu does when Goku sends Buu's imitation Kamehameha back at him in their first fight), since it should be well within his power to do that given that he created the attack and has shown that he can so easily multiple times without tiring?
      • It's hard to tell due to the animation, but it's possible that Buu was pushing back against the Planet Burst with his arms like cooler did, which would keep it from exploding. Kirby may have spat the attack back with such force that Buu could not deflect it.
      • And why he would he do that knowing well and good the attack itself is not strong enough to kill him? I mean his isn't that stupid.
    • How did the planet burst somehow manage to maintain it's shape and consistency in spite of it being forcefully suck through and expelled from an opening way smaller than it?
    • Even if the attack somehow manage to retain this shape and somehow avoided detonating on impact it, even if Buu couldn't evade it or deflect or stop it or catch like he did with the spirit bomb. it still should have been in Buu's power detonate the attack manually like Frieza did when Trunks caught his planet burst.
    • Frieza detonated his own "Death Ball" by shooting a ki blast to it, something that Cooler couldn't acomplish because he was too busy trying to push back his own "Death Ball"
      • Maybe or Maybe Cooler detonating his attack at point blank range would most likely killed him! Unlike buu who could easily survive it.
      • Considering Cooler survived being sandwitched between his own attack and the sun (somehow, despite Broly and Baby, who are much stronger than Cooler NOT surviving which actually makes no sense and is an example of Torriyama making an error in consistency), I think Cooler could have survived blowing up his own attack. Of course, Cooler himself might not had known that, and even if he did, though he may have survived, he would most likely have been heavily injured.
      • Well yeah, Cooler isn't crazy enough to do something like that but kid Buu is. Honestly if this wasn't the most avoidable death in all of Death battle history it's a close second.Seriously how lucky was it that the attack somehow keep it shape and consistent in spite of being suck through and expelled from a open only a couple of feet wide, and that Buu decided not to detonate that attack or allowed attack to detonate on him(even tho he can easily survive it.), and that he was at just the right angle to be send into the sun, and that he didn't do this attack while standing on the ground, otherwise that would have never worked.( Not to mention the fact that it's debatable whether or not the sun can completely destroy buu). Well, not so much lucky as incredibly contrived and unlikely. Even more so than his death in DBZ .At least in DBZ all you can really say about that is that Buu should have been able to dodge the spirit Bomb here they crank the contrivances up to eleven
      • We have also seen that Kid Buu most certainly can fire energy blasts while pushing against a large energy ball. He uses energy blasts to help push the Super Spirit Bomb away from him, which is infinitely stronger than the Planet Burst.
  • why did kid buu came out of Buu instead of evil buu? Was it just to keep Super buu out of the fight?
    • They decided to use Kid Buu instead because that is the most dangerous form.
      • I suppose but it still doesn't make any sense.
      • It actually makes more sense than what actually happened. Also Super Buu especially depending on the intelligence of random mooks in Dream Land would have been more dangerous. Majin Buu and Kid Buu for all their raw power are not thinkers at all. Super Buu even in his base form is smart enough to realize when he's in a bad situation and needs to retreat while he comes up with a plan and when he absorbs Piccolo it's heavily implied he got all his intellect. Someone with Buu's raw power and Metaknight's brains would likely make short work of Kirby.
      • Supreme Kai said Kid Buu was the most dangerous form, which is why Wiz and Boomstick decided to pick that form over buu (yeah Super Buu is more powerful and inteligant, but Kid Buu is by far the more unhinged one).
      • Which makes no sense. In every other situation they use the strongest form a character can have without outside help. Kid Buu is the most dangerous to the universe as a whole (caring about nothing but destruction and being willing and able to blow up planets in seconds), but in a one on one fight Super Buu is in every way superior and therefore should have been used.
  • How is it even possible for Kid Buu to killed Fat Buu in one hit like that?
    • Artistic license.
    • Artistic license? In a show that claims to realistically portray who would win a fight?
    • I think it was done that way in order to speed up the fight; since most people already know that Kid Buu is more powerful than Fat Buu
    • It's not, but showing that battle in it's entirety which could take a while and given the conditions wasn't a truly forgone conclusion. Kid Buu is not more powerful than Fat Buu, in fact most data suggests the opposite to be true. What Kid Buu is, is insane and not at all worried about collateral damage so things that Fat Buu won't do Kid Buu will without hesitation. But there in space, what's there to hurt? The battle we see however is explicitly just for entertainment and isn't entirely how the battle would likely play out.
    • It's debatable but many believe kid buu is stronger especially consider how badly Kid Buu beat down Fat buu in the anime.
  • Where did Kirby even get a miracle fruit anyway?They only grow in certain areas of the Dreamstalk and he destroyed Dreamstalk didn't he?
    • the Dreamstalk was not destroyed, and became a regular landmark of Dreamland at the end of Triple Deluxe. Furthermore, Sqweak Squad shows that Kirby has the ability to store items in his pocket dimension without using them.
  • Even if Kirby somehow found a miracle fruit there is no way he could store it inside himself like he did during the fight since swallowing one would turn his inner dimension into a massive black hole.So there is really no way he can carry that fruit inside of him like that.
    • The entry just above yours, look at it. the mechanic of items that can be stored for later even returns in Triple Deluxe
  • I also notice that they mention Kirby can gain access to the star rod by eating his warpstar like it shown in the anime. But for some reason they left out one important detail It happened in a dream!! and it's unknown whether he can even do that in real life it's even state in the wiki explaining the star rod how did they get away with that?! Not only was that feat non canon but it was accomplished in a freaking dream! They were really trying their hardest to give Kirby every advantage possible were they?
    • I would hardly call that an advantage considering Buu survived the attack.
    • Yeah it wasn't much of an advantage but that's beside the point. my point is that it's unknown whether Kirby even has this ability outside of dreams and they just gave it to him for reasons I don't even know....Did fight take place in a dream? Can you imagine if they did this in all their fights and counted feats accomplished in dreams.
    • It was less a dream and more a Battle in the Center of the Mind. The implication is that Kirby is the Star Rod's current rightful wielder or something along those lines.
      • In the mind or in a dream doesn't really matter since eitherway this fight did not taking the physical plain.And as stated multiple times before it's unknown whether or not he can do this in the physical plain,also Kirby was clearly sleeping. This much isn't debatable. It just doesn't make sense why they would give him this feat. Non-canon is one thing but Non-canon and in dream?!
      • Easy way to solve this, did kirby display any other abilities in this dream he didn't possess in real life?
      • So because it's a realistic dream it makes the valid feat?No offences, but that's absolutely nonsensical. Look at it this way, Have Kirby every summoned the star rod this way outside of that one dream?.....In case you're wondering the answer is no.
  • It's funny that when they mention Kirby splitting a planet in half they failed to mention the fact that the punch only measure 201 megatons which is 2 quadrillion times less than SSJ1 Goku's max damage output.How did they over looked that?!
    • I find hard to believe that measurement because A) 201 megatons cannot split a planet in half, it's not even enough to crack a moon; B) The "Crackity Hack" sub-game measures the punch in 999 Gigatons (its japanese name being "Gigaton punch") even though it contradicts "Megaton Punch", neither of these measurements are nearly enough to crack a planet; and C) I higly doubt the game developers know how much energy does it take to destroy a planet
      • Maybe planet Popstar is very fragile or maybe they meant 201 quadrillion megatons? .....eitherway when it comes to feats measurement matter a lot and should not be ignored.
      • Planet Popstar IS insanely fragile. As a star shaped planet, it lacks enough gravitational mass to force a spherical shape, meaning that the only possible way it could exist is if it had far less density than styrofoam. Yet another thing to so called scientific analysis didn't think of.
      • or the material that makes up the planet is so strong it can resist gravity trying to force it into a spherical shape.
      • That's not the main reason he won though. It's because of the "send something to the sun and back" feat.
      • Yeah but that's still with holding information to makes this feat seem more impressive than it actually was(whether on purpose or by mistake ), and that's my gripe. This isn't the only time in this episode were they did this Much like the eating his warp star to get his star rod feat,they left out important details regarding it like whether or not said feats happened in a dream or Measurements all these things really does freaking matter by the way.Also It's doesn't matter whether or not it was the main reason why Kirby won the point is they're clearly tipping the scales in kirby's favor. Either way you look at this it's obstruction of evidence.
      • It's not like they could explain or justify such contradictory measurements; it was easier to explain that Kirby can punch a planet apart and send over 3 tons of matter to the sun and back
      • That's because most of these feats was never meant to be taken serious it did happen in a minigame after all. As mention before if they tried hard enough they could come up with some explanation for this.planet Popstar could very fragile or maybe they're measuring in trillion Gigatons. they could have easily came up with an explanation they just didn't want to. which have been better than withholding information which sort of cost their show some credibility.
      • So should we disregard any feat because of writers lack of consistency? Should we disregard Sonic being able to take a lot of punishment because he can be killed by guns in SA 2 despite he was portrayed surviving being crushed by the Time Eater in Generations? Should we disregard Superman's strenght because he was struggling to lift rubble in one issue despite he was portrayed being capable of moving planets? Just because the writers don't know how to measure energy doesn't give us the right to undermine their characters. We should try to be a little more objective
      • Sometimes yeah,we should disregard feats for being contradictory. Some of Goku's feats that he accomplish as a child are dismissed by his own fanboys for being inconsistent. they were mostly done for rule of funny and was not meant to be taken seriously like how he when to the moon and back in under a minute using his power pole when it was later establish he can't breath in space nor can his pole can't stretch that far. And disregarding feats like that is better than lying about them.
      • well, the planet crack feat from "megaton punch" came from the bio of each fighter, those bio's being meant cover the fighter's history as quickly as possible and hype them up like pre-fight announcements in boxing matches. The fact remains that Kirby has destroyed other planet sized objects on plenty of other occasions like the time he destroyed the planet sized Marx or the time he destroyed a planet in his manga.
      • Former being something Marx did by his thrusters malfunctioning, and Kirby did not, latter being the comic replicating that same 201 megatons feat?
      • That's actually a big display of bias against this character; more if the feat in the manga had no given measure, meaning it should be taken as this figher's capability. By the way, we already stated above why the "201 megatons" or the "999 Gigatons" are bullshit! Let me use an example, in a JLA issue the Shadow Thief tries to destroy the Earth with a Shadow Moon which Batman states having the mass of the real moon; he says it's "81 Billion tons" but in reality the moon mass is "81 Billion Billion tons" or "81 Quintillion tons"; so just because writers screw up we should calc the comicbookland moon as a "81 Billion tons moon"? And regarding the "999 Gigatons", in some game maximum damage/score reach a "9999" limit even though players can easily produce far more, meaning a game mechanic is hardly sufficent proof to disregard power. So if you want to prove Buu can win; check the speed and durability, because strength is not the real problem in this battle
      • But even if ignore point A(the measurement), B(the fact that it happened in a mini-game), none of it all matter when you consider point C, The whole splitting a planet on all accounts were done by Fighter Kirby charging his max ki and striking the ground at full force.It is established even in this Death battle that Kirby’s stats change based on what he Copy Ability he is using. Meaning it is flat out wrong to use a feat accomplished with a Copy Ability to determine Kirby's base stats.And I think it safe to assume that Kirby can not manipulate ki to increase his striking power in his base form like he can in his Fighter Kirby form.So using this feat prove Kirby's base strength is simply wrong either way.

  • They stated that the star rod destroyed a piece of the moon when it was nightmare exploding that technically cause it. what the heck? Did they actually withhold this information just to give their claim about the star rod's power actually credibility?
    • more like "it blew this guy up so hard his explosion shattered a moon". Imagine shooting a watermelon with a gun and the exploding fruit shrapnel hits a brick wall so hard it takes out the wall, pretty powerful bullet right?
      • Because magic that only affects representations of bad dreams totally affects things in the same way a bullet does. More like "Imagine a signal sent to detonate a bomb that blows up a building - pretty powerful signal, right?"
      • last I checked, it destroys evil when used as a weapon.
      • And? What's your point?
  • About that "massive explosion" that cover most of planet popstar that Kirby survived in triple deluxe. King dedede and even some waddle dee was also near to kirby when it happen so can they all survive massive nukes too? Also this Planet size explosion didn't leave a scratch on the planet itself.Just Another example of them leaving out details in order to give their claim of Kirby being more durable actually credibility.
    • the planet sized explosion didn't have the planet at it's epicenter and maybe the waddle dee's can survive nuclear strikes.
      • Not just the waddle dees, King dedede also survive it without at single scratch, and these are the same the same guys who gets K.O'd by a mere 8 ton boulder and now they can somehow survive planet size nukes without a single scratch. And when the dreamstalk exploded it was not only was it rapped around the whole planet it was also rooted into it. It exploding should have cause some serious collateral damage. And yet it didn't burn a single thread on King dedede's outfit or left a single dent on the grass. This was the feat that they used to prove that Kirby was more durable but honestly it doesn't prove a darn thing.
  • Why couldn't Buu just steal all of Kirby's power-ups while he was inside Kirby's stomach? It seemed like something that has a good chance of happening, especially considering how Buu would be unlikely to pass up on the biggest buffet of his entire life.
    • Fat Buu never was that smart, and Kid Buu is even less intelligent.
    • Majin Buu my not be book smart but like Goku when it comes to fighting he can be very intellegent when he wants to be and as even able to outfoxed guys like Vegeta. Majin Buu isn't that stupid even to pass on free food, but I doubt he'll figure out what those powers up are even for let alone steal them.
  • Heck, Why couldn't Buu out right absorb Kirby...you know like he did with Gotenk, Piccolo, Gohan, Vegito, Southern Supreme Kai, and Grand Supreme Kai?
    • Well, he didn't try to absorb Vegeta in their first fight; and as Kid Buu he didn't try to absorb neither Goku or Vegeta
      • And? He also didn't use the chocolate beam on them either?what is your point? Are you actually suggesting that simply because he doesn't use it this ability on every single opponent he fights that he is not going to use it now? Because if you hadn't notice Kirby only use the swallow warpstar to get star rod abillity once in the entire franchise in a dream no less and that was used.
    • Because kirby reacts fast enough to fight on and pilot a vehicle that moves multiple times the speed of light and fights a guy who crosses solar systems in seconds, if Buu sent out a chunk of himself to absorb kirby, kirby woud probably just swallow it and copy buu's powers.
      • Except in reality drivers don't have comparable abilities to what they drive.
      • except they do if they make turns as extreme as 90 degrees or less while zipping around on something that can cross the distance between planets in seconds.
      • By that logic all professional stunt drivers should have the fighting reflexes of Bruce lee...which they don't because just piloting fast vehicles while making sharp turns doesn't grant or require supernatural fighting reflexes in real life.
      • if those drivers hopped on the hood of their cars and boxxed with other drivers while somehow still steering their cars and not crashing, yeah, they could hand Mr.Lee his ass on a silver platter.
      • The are so many many things wrong with your logic I don't even now where to start. First off, there are many things that factors into how a person drive a vehicle, aside from just reaction times Likes its Controls the size of the vehicle. Yes driving a car while standing on would be impossible even if the person had faster than light reflexes because there would be no way they could steer it. With controls that bad their reaction times need to be greater....but we don't know the warpstar actually handles. It's simple, evading faster than light attacks on a fast than light vehicle wouldn't actually require as much of a reaction times than a evading faster than light attacks on foot. and if he could then why would he even need the warpstar at all?
      • Not to mention the fact that in game Kirby is notorious for violently crashing the warpstar into the ground or the side of mountains. And in Anime kirby have been knocked off the warps star by enemies much slower that light.
  • How come Buu didn't try to use any of his other signature fighting techniques on kirby except for the chocolate beam and the Planet burst did they honestly do that little research?
    • He doesn't have any other signature moves actually.
      • Yeah he does tons, his has more fighting techniques than most DBZ characters but for some reason only few of his abilities was mention and even fewer were use in the match.
      • Most of his other techniques are just energy blasts and using his own body as a weapon. Kirby could just absorb all the blasts, and as sword Kirby, he could cut away at Buu's flesh. That and they could not show all the moves he had all the fight would be too long (same reason as to why they had Kid Buu kill Fat Buu with one punch).
      • Most of Buu energy attacks are waaaay to large for Kirby just absorb without hyper nova, and he has a lot of surprise attacks he could just get close to kirby use his angry explosion and nuke the area,or his signature energy Mine attack (when he send his ki blast underground turn the area into a literal mine field)attack which he used on Kid Buu and vegeta could easily caught Kirby off guard or spit himself into multiple copies (Kid Buu can do this too By the way).Also he has an inhale and breath attack that can destroy whole cities. I guess the fight take to long but none of these was used or even mention simplifying his overall technique to the bare basics.They made appear as if all Buu can do is regenerate and spam relatively weak blasts.
  • Even though I'm 999.999% sure Kirby doesn't has faster than light movement off the warp-star(since if he did why would he even need the warp-star?) he is still portray as if he did.Most likely because they were to lazy to calculate Kirby's actual base movement speed off the warp-star.
    • Make that a 1000% because you're right, going by feats Kirby doesn't have that kind of speed without the warp-star. Their whole claim of Kirby being faster than buu relied solely on the warp-star so they probably avoided mentioning Kirby's base speed in order to give the result more credibility; but it didn't work
    • So much for not being bias.
      • When did they ever give any indication that they believed Kirby could do that without the Warp Star?
      • If you had read the post more carefully I said the he was Portrayed as if he could. Kirby during the fight was able to keep up with Majin Buu without his warpstar even tho according to their own calulation of Goku, Majin Buu's speed should be somewhere between 5,000 and 200,000 times the speed of sound. implying that Kirby is at least this fast without his warp star without any proof.
      • Well, Doomguy was portrayed extremely slow in his battle despite being stated to be faster than his opponent, Master Chief. And Raiden's lightning was portrayed like being able to temporarily stun Thor during their battle, even though it was already explained Thor was inmune to lightning. This was probably made for sake of Rule of Cool
      • Well, in Doomguy's case his speed isn't much faster than master chef to even matter,he is like 5% faster than Master chef. And in Thor's case he still won the fight effortless so it won't make of a difference. Here majin buu base speed could be 5,000 to 200,000 times Kirby's base speed(and this is assuming Kirby is as fast as sonic the hedgehog otherwise the difference in their base speed should have been much much greater). Evading and counter Buu's attacks without the warp star should be simply impossible for Kirby. especially Buu's ki attacks and chocolate beam since they can be expanded to cover the area of an entire cities on top of being Thousands of times faster than sound. Melee combat with Buu should not have been even remotely possible either considering Buu speed and Kirby's size. Bottom line realistically Kirby should have been screwed the moment he got off the warp star. Yes it would have been boring if had Kirby spend the whole fight clinging to his warpstar but realistically that would be that only way he could avoid being killed out right. Rule of Cool simply isn't enough to dismissed this! Basically the entire melee portion of this Death Battle is complete Bull crap! Pretty much the main and only reason why Kirby didn't lose the moment he got off the warp star is Rule of Cool...that should have raised some red flags. You can not say this wouldn't make a difference!
      • actually, for Kirby to pilot the warp star, his reaction time would be comparable to the warp star's speed. Furthermore, he can actively fight while on the warp star. He has also been seen fighting and keeping up with Metaknight who can cross entire solar systems in a matter of seconds (for reference, it takes like a matter minutes to reach earth from the sun). Kirby may not be as fast off the warp star as he is on, but he is in the general ball park and he has held his own against foes MUCH faster than Buu.
      • Actully no, his reaction time wouldn't be comparable to the warp star's speed. if that was true fighter pilots should be able to dodge and counter bullets since fighter jet move at mach 15 and bullets move at most mach 3.Also Meta Knight's flight speed is actually much much faster than his speed on ground. Since his is not using his wings.
      • fighter pilots have on board computers and devices that do most of the work for them, a luxury kirby doesn't have. As for meta knight's speed, he can fly anywhere, so his "ground speed" and flight speed are exactly the same especially when you consider the fact that wings would be useless for flight in space.
      • Where did you get the idea that a driver has comparable abilities to what they drive? People react only in relative terms, when you drive a car you react to cars going at similar speeds around you which appear pretty slow. But people and their cars don't have nearly the amount of precision to deal with sudden and immediate changes like anything that enters a highway from the side. A pilot might be able to steer to avoid a mountain or building but that doesn't nearly suggest that they can turn on a dime and do it at a moments notice. Back on topic, the only times we really see Kirby use the warp star with precision is when it's going pretty slowly and bouncing around on mountain sides, nothing in the games actually suggest that Kirby can use interstellar speed to do anything other than go from planet A to B or that the star can accelerate fast enough to be used like a flash step like in the fight.
      • In addition Meta Knight's ground and flight are different since he use his wings to fly and his legs to runs therefor they should have a difference speeds. and yes wing are also useless for flight in space but so are legs and arms so lord knows can even fly in space at all.
      • because kirby has fought on the warp star and has been seen making extreme turns,dives and climbs at incredible speed. If a pilot could dodge things that randomly just pop out of nowhere with break neck turns and they do this often, that says alot about their reaction speed. as for meta knight, the point is he doesn't use his wings to actually fly, some other mechanism is at work and because the mechanism in question doesn't use his wings, there is nothing stopping him from using it on the ground. so yeah, a human pilot can't do that, but Kirby can and has.
      • And what is this magical force that allows Meta Knight fly without his wings(even tho every time we see him fly he appear to be using his wing..seriously what is the point of even having wing if they don't help you fly). Also in reality piloting and making extreme turns on fast moving vehicles doesn't require nor grant super fighting reflexes. If this was true Stunt drivers,NASCAR racers, and drag racer should all have fighting reflexes equal to or greater than Shaolin monks and they don't!Bottom line, Kirby should not have been capable of keeping up with Majin Buu or evade or counter his attacks , let alone score critical hits on buu without his warp star considering that Buu could have a base speed potenally millions of times faster than Kirby's base speed.
      • Since the Warp Star is faster than light, and controlled by Kirby's mind as it as no steering wheels, that means that he mush have faster than light reactions. Your reactions have to be proportionate to the speeds at which you move at. And addressing the NASCAR, stunt driver, and drag racer "points" used to talk down Kirby, these people most often race on courses specifically created or chosen for maximum safety at speeds often similar to each other. Kirby goes through space on the Warp Star, and space is often filled with asteroids, meteorites, and comets, not to mention counless other debree. Also, there are many characters in fiction who don't have incredible movement speed, but can have ludicrous reaction speeds. Also, these posters seem to ignore that the maximum human reaction time of 100 milliseconds, where fictional characters, by definition, aren't bound by real world biological or physical laws and blatantly ignore that fighter jets move primarily in airways where there are only other fighter jets, which move a similar speeds and at angles congruent to the fighter jet, like how race cars all move on the same track.
      • I think you and the guys at death battle don't fully understand what a sheer difference in speed this is. Assuming if Kirby has a base speed as fast a sound(which he don't but lets be just assume)Buu would still be 5,000 to 200,000 times faster. A difference you can't simply HandWave with such lame excuse. This is literally like saying a sloth can easily keep up with it and evade a freaking Bullet train or a Blackbird jet (in spite of moving only 1 1/2 inches per second) if said sloth had a good enough reflexes.
  • Why did they take the time out to point out the size of Kirby and then portray them as being roughly the same size after that? While it's difficult to get a solid fix on the height of anybody in Dragon Ball Kid Buu is only slightly smaller than Vegeta who hair included is probably around six feet. Kirby is eight inches tall. A lot of what he's doing in the fight simply wouldn't work because of the size difference. Oh, and he's been shown to have a difficult time getting large things in his mouth, but large is relative. When you're eight inches tall a four foot Buu is enormous.
    • Well Death battle got Kirby's height from the smash bros game index and most Kirby fans don't consider that to be true. Most believe kirby is 2 feet but this is all fan theory. Perhaps artistic licence or maybe they honestly though that Majin Buu was three and half feet tall.but you still have a good point. Why bring up that fact only to ignore it in the fight? and yes Kirby should not have been able to pull off half the stunts he did in that fight considering his size.
    • They mentioned that to make the fight seem more balanced, objects larger than kirby have been shown to condense once they get close enough to him when he inhales.
  • I also notice that during the review they actually said Kirby Hypernova form can devour worlds. This is about as baseless as the claim that Goku could destroy whole solar systems or Majin Buu being able to destroy the very fabric of reality.....and they dismissed those. When have Kirby ever devour a whole world? its there any proof that Hyper nova can do that?
    • Hypernova official description indicates Kirby becomes "a veritable black hole"; so they're most likely right about that one
      • That is not what the word "vertiable" means. That word means overexaggeration and emphasis and only bears a small similarity to a black hole.
      • And Cell could have been right about Goku destroying whole solar systems and Dende could have been right about Buu destroying reality after all he can tear through dimensional walls , but It doesn't really change the fact these feats has never been shown in any form of media. The even in the games where Hypernova is avalible he can't devour worlds.And in no form of media have he ever been depicted of doing so. which is why such a claim should have been dismissed.
      • except the hyper nova has inhaled and redirected powerful laser attacks from eldritch abominations.
      • What does that got to do with anything?
      • And even if we treat this "veritable black hole" as a "pseudo-black hole" despicted in several medias, it'll still be pretty powerful since it can be used to one-shot enemies nearly as strong as Kirby, who can crack a planet in half. So it might not devour worlds, but it can devour world-breakers
      • A veritable black hole" IS a pseudo-black hole the word veritable is usually used metaphorically like for example "he's a veritable swine!" this doesn't mean said person is an actual swine. Back to point, devouring world-breakers and devouring worlds are not even remotely the same thing. and the whole Kirby splitting planets should have been taken with a grain of salt. seeing 1.) the measurement made no sense. and 2.) said planet was perfectly fine and some how reform minutes after being split in half this feat was most likely never meant to taken completely seriously but that's besides the point.
      • Kirby can only hit with the force of 201 megatons, that would put the Hypernova on a truly weak level.
      • Stated above why that measurement is a load of crap; or do you actually believe 201 megatons = 999 Gigatons. And Kirby destroyed a planet in his manga
      • I think you're mistaking,201 megaton measurement is from the megaton punch mini game and 999 Gigatons measurement is from the Crackity Hack mini game,no one is saying or implying that they are equal. these readings are from two totally different games, is possible that Kirby may have gotten stronger since the first game.
      • First, Kirby destroyed a planet in his manga which would require more than 999 Gigatons, and second that's not even Kirby gratest feat; he destroyed Nova, a planet sized mechanical comet, how? Acording to Kirby's wiki "Kirby manages to win, and send Marx flying away and into what remains of Nova, seemingly destroying them both in a massive explosion." How much power was that? This blog has the answer http://www.narutoforums.com/blog.php?s=caa3b550d4a3cd9659fa6846d75f5fb9&b=21933 It's full of low ends, so it's safe to say that was at least 30 Yottatons or 30 Quintillion megatons. Even if we go by the standards set in Superman Vs Goku, Buu is far more powerful; but undermining a character's strenght just because you favor his opponent is just bias. Again if you want Buu to win check the real flaws in this battle, speed and durability
      • Fair enough, but my main point is they whole Hypernova devouring world isn't even remotely true.
      • I'm pretty sure they didn't mean that he could inhale an entire planet at once; it's simply a dramatic way of saying he could gradually inhale virtually everything on the planet until it's pretty much barren.
      • And when have Hyper-Nova ever done that either? That's still a baseless claim. Doesn't really matter how you look at it that statement just isn't true.It's just bullcrap they spoon fed the audience in order to make kirby look more threatening.
  • How can Kirby just inhale Majin Buu so easily when guys like Meta Knight,King dedede, and Bonker the gorilla can all resist kirby's suction in game and in anime? Is there a reason why Buu couldn't resist it other than fact they wanted Kirby to win?
    • because it's the animation, which is for the purposes of being entertaining and not a representation of how the fight could play out.
      • So much of this fight are we suppose to ignore? I mean between this,the whole melee portion,the star rod , and kid buu killing fat in one hit, or the fact that kid buu instead of bad buu came out(not to mention the inaccurate size and scaling of the characters)....that's like 80% of the fight right there.
      • yes, you can ignore the animation, it runs on rule of cool or should we question why superman dudnt splatter Goku with his first punch?
      • Yes, you should if something don't make any sense you should bring it up that is what this page is for. but to answer your question Superman was never the type of person to kill someone like that in a fight. Normally he holds back and try to fight them at their level. So it possible those punch wasn't at full strength.Anyway,the point is Majin Buu should have strong enough and fast enough to avoid being suck in by Kirby,And Kirby being able to inhale him so easily is complete Bull crap plan and simple.
      • First off, it takes time to inhale a large object like Majin Buu. He's around the same size as a big Waddle Dee, normally seen in Kirby and The Amazing Mirror. I doubt that inhaling an all-powerful being is an easy task. Second, that's animation purposes. If it's crap to you, then it's better put the "logic" into the WallBanger (though it's locked).
      • Actually Majin Buu should be much larger than big waddle. As mention before the sizing and scaling is just one more thing they got wrong in this episode. Considering that Majin Buu is roughly the size of an average human and Kirby being 8 inches buu should have been at the very least 8 times Kirby height and kid buu should have been at least 6.They mostly likely just didn't care. That aside, Meta-Knight for example in the anime and in the games is about the same size of Kirby and can resist Kirby's suction even at point blank range without any effort as well as many other enemies in the game and anime this is because if the enemy is too big, too heavy, too strong, or too fast they can resist or evade Kirby's suction completely. So why this wasn't mention or even factor into this death battle is anyone's guess. Since one could defiantly argue that Buu is strong enough or fast enough to get around Kirby's suction and he couldn't here is complete nonsense.
  • In the end, what the result came down to is the fact that Kirby's base powers, to inhale enemies and their attacks, and spit them out as stars, is his most powerful attack. With this, Kirby can reflect and any attack within reason. Hypernova removes all limits from his inhaling ability, and adds the ability to magnify the power of what he inhales, as seen when Kirby returned Queen Sectonia's laser attack. To summarize, Kirby has the power to use his foe's own attacking power against them.
    • There nothing that says Hyper Nova remove all limitation from his suction it just increase it strength and allow him to suck in thing that where normal too heavy or big to inhale normally.There are limits to Hyper Nova He can't suck in anything there are still some enemies and object in game he can not inhale even with hypernova , and the suction has other limit like it's range. Nor this there anything that say Hypernova increases the power of anything attack inhaled, Even then can Buu easily survive what he can own attacks.
      • limitations on gameplay mechanics aside, the hyper nova has absorbed and redirected laser blasts from powerful eldritch monsters.
      • limitations on gameplay mechanics aside?! literally only time hyperova was ever used or see was in game.How can you just throw that aside?!
      • except that time he returned that one monsters laser attack with it.
      • And?.......Whats' your point? it's still change the fact that there are limits to Hyper Nova.
      • Kirby obviously has limits in Hypernova mode but the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages. The ability to redirect any kind of attack at the same velocity instead of his own is a big advantage, where normally the dubbed Planet Buster would've been converted into either a small, weak star or a large, heavy star that both can be easily dodged or deflected.
  • When they mention Wheel Kirby's speed they failed to mention that the major of Cappy Town's car was able to keep with him the entire time and ending up beating him in that same race they shown. This pretty much proves that Wheel Kirby isn't much faster than your average racing car so naturally they didn't to mention it.
    • So the other cars kept up with kirby while he was going laps around a country in a matter of seconds. That says those cars are going fast, not that Kirby is going slow.
      • It says is that Wheel Kirby max speeds is something that even a normal race car can achieve.
      • normal for dream land, reality has yet to make a car that can lap a town 5 times a minute.
      • Again, that just means that the other cars are as fast as Kirby, not that Kirby is as slow as the other cars.
      • Actually according to the episode itself the mayor's car was "pulled along by wheel Kirby's draft" when Kirby was circling the racetrack. It didn't move as fast as Kirby due to its own power. Likewise it only won at the last second when Kirby choked at the finish line. Also Wheel Kirby is clearly MUCH faster than a normal car since as it was able to complete about 5 laps around the racetrack(which encompassed a decent chunk of cappytown)in a less than a minute. Also none of the other cars even came close to keeping up with it.
  • Also about that whole Kirby throwing that frying near thing. It turns out they left out some important details(Big surprise). During the death battle they assume that Planet Pop is the same distance away from there sun as earth. This is most likely incorrect since Planet pop star doesn't orbit a sun. Their sun orbit it. So their sun is most likely much smaller and much closer than our sun and our orbit.
    • Actually that makes it far more impressive; if the Sun orbits the planet pop star, that means pop star's gravity is powerful enough to pull a small star! So if this planet's gravity and, by extension, its scape velocity are higher, the "frying pan" feat was far more difficult to acomplish than we (and probably Wiz and Boomstick) initially thought
    • Actually planet pop star is the same size of earth with the same gravity it's just that their sun is just really really small. it's actually about the same size as one of their moons.
      • it can be the same size (irrelavent for gravity) and just be so dense that it has enough mass (what causees gravitational attraction) to force a star to orbit it.
      • Yes, and as for the sun being the size of one of the planet's moons? I don't believe that was ever officially stated. The sun just looked to be that small in Milky Way Wishes when it and the moon were fighting, which was probably just done to keep the sun from having a size advantage. If you go and watch the scene where Kirby throws Popon to the sun, it is clearly more massive than that, like, a lot more.
      • If their sun was the same size and distant away as our sun then it would be impossible for it to orbit a planet as small as pop star even if it was super duper dense and had the gravity of 1,000,000 earths, That just simply defies all celestial mechanics. The sun would mostly crash right into it instead of orbiting it.
      • magic, a wizard did it.
      • But even if that feat is true, it doesn’t matter for two reasons. 1: Throwing strength and punching/hitting strength are not the same (something they consistently get wrong). 2: Cook Kirby made that throw. It is established that Kirby’s stats change based on what he Copy Ability he is using (i.e. he can move faster as Wheel Kirby and can punch hard as Fighter Kirby) meaning it is flat out wrong to use a feat done with a Copy Ability to determine his base stats.
  • When listing Majin Buu's feats, they mention that he is friends with super Janemba. did this happen in a Dragon Ball game, or were they just being funny?
    • Most likely the latter, since Majin Buu and Janemba has never met.
      • Actually, to answer my own question, The Dragon Ball Wiki states that Janemba and kid Buu became friends in the arcade mode of Shin Budokai.
  • When have Kirby Ever been able to perform a freaking flash step with the warpstar? Not only has Kirby never shown being capable of doing this in any media, But do we have any proof that the warpstar can accelerate and decelerate fast enough to do this? They do know that just because a vehicle is faster than light doesn't mean instantly go from 0 to faster than light speed and back to 0 again, right? Or were they just assuming again?
  • Why didn't they mention that Majin Buu can create barrier capable of withstanding a full out military assault?
  • why didn't they mention that Majin Buu and Kid Buu can both split into multiple copies of themselves?
  • Why didn't they mention Majin Buu energy's mine attack?
  • Why didn't they mention Majin buu's Gack attack?
  • Why wasn't the angry explosion used during the fight?
  • Why didn't they mention the Human extinction attack?
    • The human extinction attack wouldn't have done him much good against Kirby or anybody remotely on his level. Tien and Chaotsu are shown dodging the attack.
  • How and why was Majin Buu was able to shoot chocolate beams out of his hand?! He never did so in the anime or the manga or in any of the movies or in any of the games and there is nothing that suggests he can.So why?
    • Considering that Buu's entire body seems to be pink putty he almost definitely can shoot energy any which way he chooses.
      • what does being made of putty got to do with anything? Majin buu has never demonstrated this ability in any dbz media every.If he could do that how come he never done this before? Also his candy beam is not energy its magic. And there is a distinct difference between the two.
  • How they portrayed Majin Buu's absorption ability in the death battle seems to be...well is just wrong.Majin Buu's absorption ability was threated like Kirby's copy ability,which work completely differently by the way. When Buu absorb someone he don't just copy their powers. He also absorb their intelligence and knowledge, their strength, their speed, and even bits of their personality and adds it to his own to improve his stats. So why was he using this ability on some random mook(blade/sword knight)apposed to someone he could actually benefit from is anyone guess.not to mention the fact that Buu could have just copy Kirby's sword technique simply by watching with his instant learn ability .so not only does absorbing that mook made no sense but it was completely unnecessary. Actually, why would Buu even feel the need to even learning sword techniques at all? He has never needed to use a sword in combat even when dealing with people who fight with swords like Northern Supreme Kai. so why start now? what was the point?
    • He saw Kirby do it and thought it looked like fun. It's the same reason why he used the Kamehameha and super kamikaze ghost attack. Buu does a lot of things simply for the lulz.
      • Except, Buu didn't used or copied super kamikaze ghost attack simply for lulz.Super buu used that attack against Vegito long after absorbing Gohan, Gotenks and Piccole.And when he used this attack in an attempt to legitimately kill Vegito. And super kamikaze ghost attack is not one of Vegito's attack it belongs to Gotenk.And when copying the Kamehameha Buu used his instant learn ability not his absorption ability. And even if that was the case that still don't explain why Buu used his absorption ability and not his instant learn to do it. Specially considering that Buu absorption ability dose not work that way.
      • They also ignore that, unlike Kirby, Buu can absorb as many people as he wants and gain power from all of them, whereas Kirby can only have one power at a time. If Buu wanted to, he could have absorbed every enemy on the battlefield.
      • Well, In the shows defenses,They pretty much failed completely in even getting the mechanics of attack right.Let alone having him use it effectively.
  • Why did Buu ripping a hole in Kirby’s stomach dimension not hurt Kirby in the slightest? Unlike the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, which is a space that can connect to the real world, Kirby’s stomach is connected to his mouth so ripping a hole in it, even temporarily, should have killed Kirby, or at least seriously damaged him.

    Ragna the Bloodedge Vs. Sol Badguy 
  • Black Beast being involved in this whole thing seems really bizarre. Mainly because there would be no way that Sol would logically even meet it if he wasn't jerking around. Ragna's transformation into Black Beast due of overusage of Azure Grimoire is not something what happens instantly. Ragna will first go into "pseudo-Black Beast" state, before slowly transforming into Black Beast fully. So Black Beast shouldn't be a factor at all.
  • Was Ragna's life-link with Nu-13 severed during some point in the Blazblue series? Granted, that would make the battle unfair if one can't die without the other end not present.
    • To be fair Nu-13 "died" and had her physical body destroyed at the end of the first game despite the life link. Additionally the life link has never prevented Ragna from being beaten into submission and sustaining major injuries(like having one of his arms destroyed in CT). It's unlikely that it alone would have turned the tide of the fight.
  • Here's a couple answers to this episode's Running Gag of "nobody knows" for anyone curious.
    • Why did Jin cut off Ragna's arm and left him for dead despite being one of the very few people who cared for him? Hazama/Terumi possessed Jin, making him do so.
    • The currency of the Blazblue verse? If we go by the various game modes, the currency is called "Platinum dollars". Ragna's bounty is 90 billion Platinum Dollars.
    • How Ragna obtains the Azure Grimiore is explained much more in the games than in the anime adaption. Where in said adaption, it goes exactly as Boomstick described.
    • Where was Jubei when the church was attack? While it is never explicitly stated where Jubei is, he is most likely continuing his mission to find and seal the Nox Nyctores that he was on before finding Ragna, Jin and Saya. As he was travelling all over the world, he could not reasonably know that Terumi attacked the church until Rachel (who cannot intervene to prevent this event) told him about it.
    • Why did the Black Beast appear in the past if Ragna and Nu never went back in time to become it? This is because Blazblue is not technically a true Stable Time Loop (or at least this part isn’t). Every loop is not a time reset, but another recursion, or Phase as it is called, that happens afterwards, which is where the new Black Beast goes. The Black Beast created in the second to last phase appears in the final phase and the final phase is the end of the loop.
  • Why do they go out of there way to make the Blazblue plot, characters and setting sound as stupid as possible? Ignoring the legigitmate issues with it being complicated (namely the confusing time travel) they also act confused about very straightforward and logical elements. We don’t know why Ragna was in a lab because that is an important story element that hasn’t been revealed yet. Either Saya’s illness is plot important and similarly hidden from the viewers or it is not important enough to specify beyond her body was frail and she was often sick. Ars Magus is not Magic but causes “Magic-like effects” because it is Magitek powered by Seithr whereas true Magic also exists in Blazblue, and the distinction is important. Rachel is not “all-knowing and all-powerful” she simply is one of many characters who remembers the time loops and therefore knows what is going to happen, and she isn’t all-powerful considering she is not the strongest character in the series, and is prevented from taking direct action. They use the anime depictions of Terumi attacking the church and Ragna receiving the Azure Grimoire when the anime is incredibly innacturate and those events have perhaps the most mistakes of all. They went into more plot detail than they do in most episodes and then either get information wrong or intentionally remove context to make everything more ridiculous than it really is. Why the mean spirited Take That that only establishes themselves as lazy.

    Gaara Vs. Toph 
  • So how exactly does Karura's "life force" work when someone else tries to manipulate the sand? Would Toph be able to override the Karura sand completely or just immobilize it? note 
    • There is a big misconception that Toph is trying to overpower Gaara's and Karura's control over sand. That is NOT the case. If Toph is attacked, she redirects the sand away, parrying it (like she has done against other Earth Benders in the past, who can control and energize sand in a similar manner to Gaara's jutsus.) But when it comes to using Gaara's sand against him, Toph does this by turning the sand into stone. Gaara has NO control over rock, he needs to crush rock into sand in order to manipulate it, he has NEVER used stone or rock directly in battle. So since Gaara needs to crush sand, but Toph can turn it back to rock, Gaara could not get anymore ammo in the fight and his sand defenses could be eliminated.
    • What? In order to control Gaara's sand, Toph would have to overpower Gaara's control. Even turning sand into stone still requires overpowering his control in order to compress it.
    • Additionally, why is assumed that she'd be able to parry his attacks easily? Unlike most earth benders, Gaara maintains control of his sand at great distances rather than relying on ballistic throws.
  • Gaara has shown the ability to move much more mass than Toph can. Why couldn't he just overpower her?
    • Toph could likely either bury herself in nearby bedrock, or form a shield out of the very sand that Gaara is trying to swamp her with.
    • For Gaara to have that much sand he needs to make it by crushing rock, and since Toph can reverse this by turning sand into stone, Gaara didn't have as much sand available as he normally would. Even with nerfed, Gaara is strong, but there is noting to prove that Gaara's offense could pierce Toph's defenses. Remember in the match, Toph can use boulders AND her metal armor, and since Toph is manipulating both of these elements on a similar level to Gaara's sand, there is no proof to say that Gaara could pierce such a defense.
      • Aside from Gaara being able to move just plain more weight than Toph, you mean? Kinda sorta hints at being able to generate more force. His conversion ability also seems to be pretty fast, so it doesn't take him long to create enough sand to use as a weapon, and if he can generate more force, than Toph won't be able to resist or reverse his conversion.
      • Toph is able to redirect incoming sand attacks, as seen in her series. And redirecting a blow takes alot less energy than taking the impact, that is why in real life most shields are designed to parry, not actually block. And remember that Toph can react to Gaara's attacks very quickly, giving her time to make an appropriate layer of defense. Her defensive technique showed was similar to Gaara's own absolute defense in terms of strength; having body armor & a wall of earth surrounding her. Also, how much force does Gaara actually use? That's hard to confirm, so it's hard to confirm if Gaara is powerful enough to pierce the defenses. The conclusion presented was that Toph's defenses could just barely survive, which seems reasonable.
      • But Toph shouldn’t be able to redirect Gaara’s attacks at all. In her series Benders have a limited control area so they throw their attacks, which allows their opponents to take control of them. Gaara control all of his sand at once and his massive chakra supply should mean he has a stronger “pull” on his sand so Toph can’t steal any of it. And the difference in power between the two should not have let Toph barely survive Gaara's attacks (sand strong enough to catch a huge meteor, creating a several mile wide desert instantly and then crushing it all on top of the opponent). With the power Gaara has shown I find it hard to believe a simple wall of rock can stop Toph from being crushed under the weight of Gaara's sand or pierced by the Spear of Shukaku.
  • Why is Gaara's training in Taijutsu, of which he is ranked average, meaning he is faster and more powerful then a normal human, not mentioned?
    • He seldoms uses Taijutsu and Toph's eartbending is basically a martial art; perhaps the hosts thought they canceled out and wished to stick to the "earth power" theme.
  • Knowing an attack is coming and being able to do something about it are not the same thing. Therefore, why is it assumed Toph possesses the speed necessary to react to all of Gaara's attacks even if she can feel them coming?
    • Toph is pretty quick in canon. Considering how she handles other earth benders in the Earth Rumble, it's reasonable that she can do something similar with Gaara. Furthermore, several victims of Gaara's Sand Burial have time to look in horror before the sand completely engulfs and then crushes them. Thus, there is time for Toph to react. Also, it takes moving as fast as sound to get past Gaara's defense. Gaara's own attack speed is nowhere near that level. Rock Lee was able to dodge Gaara's attacks even before he took his weights off and that guy can only move faster than the speed of sound when he's using the fifth gate. (First Gate quintuples the user's speed, but only the first and fifth gates give a speed increase. Therefore, calculating backwards, Rock Lee's base speed would be in the ballpark of highway speeds or 3 times faster than an Olympic sprinter).
    • Toph's instantaneous reaction time allows her to avoid almost anything Gaara can throw at her, she still has defensive techniques like making walls or hiding in holes underground and her history of fighting other elemental benders means she clearly knows how to deal with enemy attacks since benders basically spam attacks all the time, and many times they try to overpower their enemies. Toph knows how to avoid or survive strong opponents.
    • Instantaneous senses does not equal instant reflexes. Toph still has to move and defend herself and Gaara’s much faster than her. Additionally her seismic sense has limited range (and her ability to sense in the air should be even more limited because the clip where that ability was mentioned only showed earth right in front of her face). She should be worn out and overwhelmed by Gaara’s continuous attacks even if she could consistently dodge them.
      • Way to completely forget that they mentioned how Toph's seismic sense become powerful enough to sense everyone on the planet. How could we ever disprove your facts? Oh, wait, by explaining what you forget. And as mentioned above, "Toph is pretty quick in canon. Considering how she handles other earth benders in the Earth Rumble, it's reasonable that she can do something similar with Gaara. Furthermore, several victims of Gaara's Sand Burial have time to look in horror before the sand completely engulfs and then crushes them. Thus, there is time for Toph to react. Also, it takes moving as fast as sound to get past Gaara's defense. Gaara's own attack speed is nowhere near that level. Rock Lee was able to dodge Gaara's attacks even before he took his weights off and that guy can only move faster than the speed of sound when he's using the fifth gate. (First Gate quintuples the user's speed, but only the first and fifth gates give a speed increase. Therefore, calculating backwards, Rock Lee's base speed would be in the ballpark of highway speeds or 3 times faster than an Olympic sprinter). "
      • A couple of things. 1. When Gaara's victims have a look of horror before they are crushed, it's not that there is enough time for them to react, it's Gaara (Who in Part 1, in which that technique was used regularly, in which Gaara was a psycho) enjoying the last moments before they die. 2. During the fight, Lee after his weights were off got to hit Gaara, but his sand defense still managed to block some of his attacks. In fact most of his attacks got through mainly due to Gaara being so disorientated by how fast Lee was going. How fast was he going? Well in the fight scene scene, we see the impact of Lee's fist hit the sand defense THEN his taunting. This means that Lee's was going faster than sound, not the speed of sound, faster than sound. To put it simply, he was moving at the speed of a bullet, in which the bullet would hit you first before you heard the gunshot going 'BANG'. 3. Toph can sense things almost instantly, but she is still a child, and she cannot physically dodge all of the attacks that she sensed. Remember when she fought Aang? He landed on the arena first, alerting Toph, before firing a wind attack. This is when he was still considered an inexperienced Air-Bender BTW. So while Toph can sense something immediately, she was still slow enough to get blown off by an inexperienced wind blast.
      • Also Toph’s feats in Korra are not applicaple because she got them later in life, so when she had senses that good her body was much physically weaker. You cannot have prime physical condition Toph and super senses Toph. Also, Toph may be able to sense the whole planet, but that doesn’t mean she can all at once. The Seismic Sense is described, and in canon is visualized, like sonar. In canon, when Toph’s feat touch the earth, we see waves spread out that create echoes whenever they come in contact with something. Toph’s sense is not instant, they radiate outwards. This means the farther away an object is, the longer it takes for Toph to sense it. Toph can sense anything on the planet, but not instantly. “Pretty quick” is a generic statement. In Avatar, every character but the Avatar in the Avatar State moves and fights like humans at peak physical condition, only above humans in their ability to manipulate elements. Characters in Naruto are constantly shown to be capable of superhuman feats, chakra, like ki, is used to overcome the natural limits of humans. Also funny how you say we can’t ignore Toph’s feats in Korra, yet you are basing all of Gaara’s abilities off of hi FIRST appearance. Since then Gaara has had three more years of experience, become strong enough to be recognized as the Kazekage, and lost Shukaku but after that became stronger than he was before he lost it. In the fight with Kimimaro Gaara instantly created enough sand to create a wave of sand that covers at least a square mile. In Part II, he creates huge sand arms that Deidara, a much more experienced ninja than Rock Lee, has difficulty dodging on a bird that is faster and more agile. He also has Sand Drizzle that can create small sand bullets that can attack from all directions or be fired out rapidly like a machine gun. And even if you want to use the Rock Lee fight you are, ironically, not using cannon. Gaara only had the sand in his gourd in that fight, meaning much less ammo and therefore less range giving Rock Lee more freedom to dodge. After Gaara masters the ability to convert earth minerals into sand. Toph could not sense Gaara wherever he is in the air. If she could sense any earth not on the ground over a huge range, why would she need the seismic sense, which is limited to things touching the ground? Therefore air attacks could not be stopped until they were at so close range that she could not dodge the volume or speed of Gaara’s attacks. Even on the ground, Toph cannot use any of the sand that Gaara has a hold on (his chakra is in all the sand he controls and Toph’s earthbending does not have more pull than Gaara’s immense chakra pull). Even if Toph’s senses are as good as you say (and even if they were, that does not mean she can react at the same speed) she still wouldn’t be able to protect herself from the power and range of Gaara’s attacks.
  • Why is Gaara's much greater experience in lethal one on one engagements disregarded?
    • Since this is Death Battle all combatants are assumed to be equally lethal. Also, Toph fought in several battles that took place during a war and latter in life she became a police officer. Toph looks like a child in the battle but the fighters are always composite characters.
    • Both of these combatants are very young, so a difference in experience isn't going to be much of a difference. Also fighters with more experience don't always win (ie Batman to Spiderman and Goku to Superman).
  • Why is the fact that Toph's Bending requires physical movements while Gaara's Ninjutsu does not, thus giving Gaara much quicker and more fluid control, not factored in?
    • There are characters who can bend with just their facial muscles and even some that do not require any movements at all. Given Toph's status as one of the two best earthbenders in the world and her innovative mind, it's easy to assume she could do that by the time of her old age in Legend of Korra.
    • Also Gaara sometimes does need to make handsigns or movement for his strongest attacks. Most of his automatic attacks are part of his absolute-defense.
  • Why is it assumed Gaara would run out of Chakra in a single one on one fight when he is capable of going through an entire war without hardly a break?
    • As mention before these fights are solely for entertainment purposes so just disregard it and hope this wasn't a deciding factor in their decision.
    • In the war, his sand-armor wasn't drained. The use of the sand-armor is what fatigued Gaara, NOT the duration of the fight.
    • Why is it assumed the sand armor drains his chakra so much any more? It only drained him in Part 1. By the war he has as much chakra as a Tailed Beast, meaning he should be able to wear that armor for a least a weak straight. And considering his other defenses and the danger of the war, if he didn’t use his sand armor than it seems pretty clear that technique is obsolete to him. If his sand can block an attack from Deidara that is equal to a NUCLEAR BOMB, than he can block anything Toph can throw at him without that armor (which wouldn’t drain him anyway). And even if he did use it, he should be smart enough to stop using the second he saw she could manipulate sand and could therefore (in theory) use it against him.
  • Gaara's only used gold dust once in the entire series which was for a very specific purpose so why was it assumed that he made it a permanent part of his arsenal?
    • They didn't make that assumption. It's simply part of the analysis of what he was capable of. The point is that Toph could bend both the sane and the gold dust so it wouldn't matter which one he used. The hosts try to be extensive in their research and use as much as possible to avoid complaints like "Why didn't Character X have ability B? That would have changed the outcome!"
  • Why is it assumed that Toph would be able to override Gaara's control over sand and turn it into stone? And can Gaara control sandstone or not?
    • It's mainly because Gaara cannot control sandstone. Never has Gaara been depicted as controlling anything from fine sand. So it's not that Toph can control sand better than Gaara, but that she can make the sand into an element Gaara cannot control: large solid rock.
      • Again, why is it assumed that Toph can override Gaara's control like that? In order to move sand that Gaara is moving, she has to outmuscle his control. Until she takes control of his sand, she won't be able to bend it into stone. Being able to compress sand into stone doesn't come into play unless she can take control of it, and he's shown greater strength.
      • Sandstone is made of compressed sand. Gaara controls sand. He only uses it in grain form, but can he change sandstone back to sand through direct control or does he need to grind it first?
      • What's stopping Gaara from just regrinding the sandstone after Toph compresses it? Her stone constructs have been broken on a number of occasions, so it's not like she would make sandstone indestructible. And unlike Gaara, she doesn't exert extended control over a wide area.
      • The fact that she can turn the sand need to grind the sandstone into sand into more sandstone.
    • Gaara is controlling his all of his sand continuously. When is she getting the chance to take control of his sand?

    Samus vs. Boba Fett Remake 
  • How is Fett stronger than Samus? Earlier in the video, they state she outclasses him in every way. Even without her suit, she can jump at least three times her height and drop down dozens - possibly hundreds - of feet without being injured. Can Fett do that without his suit?
    • They didn't want to piss of Boba Fett's pretty large fanbase by having Samus win easily. That and they used all sources from the Old Star Wars EU, which was kinda fucked up at times.

    Guts vs. Nightmare 

  • If this image is legit (SPOILER ALERT) and not taken from someone's MUGEN match, that means they're using Soul Calibur IV's depiction of Nightmare, which is neither his most recent, most powerful, or most iconic form. If it is legit, why pick IV's Nightmare?

    Snake vs. Sam 

  • Snake has defeated many enemies who are stealthy and ambush. One of the most impressive examples of this is Laughing Octopus; she could climb on ceilings while being invisible and Snake was unable to hide from her. This is ignoring the fact that her robotic limbs can rip humans in half, she can survive automatic fire and she wields a submachine gun. Not to mention that Sam rarely fights superhuman opponents outside of typical military vehicles.
    • The real headscratcher is what why this is brought up here.
      • It's to counter the argument that Sam's stealth abilities could overwhelm Snake.
  • A point towards the show's internal logic; Snake wins due to his superior hand to hand ability. But after making a specific point of highlighting his vulnerability to gunfire in the pre-fight rundown, as well as specifically highlight Sam's expert quickdraw and marksmanship abilities, this is completely glossed over in the post fight wrap up. Yes Snake wins in hand to hand combat, but it doesn't necessarily get to that point if Sam just shoots him in the head.
    • Wouldn't mean much against a guy who's fast enough to dodge bullets; which makes Sam being able to shoot Snake in the gut a little inconsistency.
      • Well, Snake was standing still after he got the data, which allowed Sam to shoot him. Which seems pretty out of character for somneone like Snake to let his guard down when his enemy is still active and in front of him.
      • He was on the ground, presumably stunned at the time, so there is that, but yeah, fair point.
      • OP Here. I'm not basing this headscratcher off of the fight video at all, as the hosts have been very clear that the fight shown isn't what decides the winner. I'm basing this headscratcher off of the fact that the rundown for their abilities and vulnerabilities made specific point that Snake was vulnerable to gunshots - one well placed bullet could kill him - and that Fisher was an excellent marksman and quickdraw, able to draw a gun and get off four kill shots in less than a second, and who's gun could be used as a sniper rifle. They make these specific points, and then in the break down of why Snake wins, they don't mention the gunplay aspect of the fight at all. They touch on their relative stealth and tracking abilities, the vulnerabilities of their mission control, the invulnerability of Snake's tech to Sam's EMP, and their hand to hand combat ability. The way they break it down, the fight went straight from stealth to hand to hand with no in between, and Sam's marksmanship doesn't even get a mention.
      • Having Sam to take a hidden position waiting for Snake to get within his firing range would mean Sam had some time to prepare for Snake's arrival; while in a 1 VS 1 battle, Snake's solid eye would easily track Sam so he can either dodge the bullet or take cover
    • Both of these combatants are stealth fighters, their ability to hide and assassinate is what really determined the match. When Sam used his assaultrifle twice in the match, Snake was concealed either behind a wall or in the shadows. I think that Snake getting shot could reflect Sam's quickdraw feats, but overall that isn't a gamechanging factor. Snake has dealt with gunfighters before: Revolver Ocelot is a similar gunslinger to Sam.

    Darth Vader Vs Doctor Doom 

  • While this has nothing to do with the fight itself, it still leaves me scratching my head. In the post fight split screen, we see Doom sitting atop his throne drinking a glass of wine given to him by his butler/ only friend Boris while both his own minions and a number of stormtroopers kneel to him. This implies that Doom gained control of the galactic empire after killing Vader. How does that work? Nothing indicates that he also killed Galactic Emperor Sheev Palpatine. Granted, given how easily he defeated Vader, and the fact that Palpatine was estimated to only be 20% more powerful than Vader, I am certain that Doom could kill him. Still, how did Doom gain control of the empire just by killing Vader?

    Other 
  • There have been many misconceptions over what actually effects the abilities and fighting skill to make a warrior win a Death Battle.
    • Yoshi, Thor and Spider-Man proved that even though one character is from a more kid-friendly franchise (compared to their enemies Riptor, Raiden and Batman) doesn't mean they are weaker in battle. This misconception is more confusing when some kid-friendly series avoid death or murder, sometimes censoring close-combat entirely (this makes the audience less aware of the characters' abilities, especially when Death Battle demands all combatants to show no mercy and attempt to murder each other).
    • Another misconception is that a more beloved or popular character is a superior combatant. For example, Mario maybe more popular than Spawn or Kratos, but it doesn't automatically mean he could win against them.
    • It is also believed that the destruction a character can create relates to their battlefield performance. Although it is true that Kratos could kill gigantic Titans, the mythical creatures he faces are still similar to Spawn's demons. Even though Cloud can cut through skyscrapers, it doesn't mean he can penetrate the indestructible Hylian Shield.
    • Many fans have noticed if two fighters have a significant difference in intelligence, the more intelligent tactician would win. However Zelda, Dr. Eggman, Dr Wily and Raiden were defeated; Raiden being overwhelmed by Thor's strength and the Doctors being obliterated by the god-like Metal Sonic. (Spider-Man vs Batman doesn't really count because both warriors have similar intelligence, Taokaka and Felicia are both pretty stupid and Leonardo is a superior tactician to Donatello despite Donatello's enormous IQ).
  • Some characters like Spider-Man and Batman have a limited supply of ammo for their weapons while some superhumans like Taokaka and Spawn have a limited supply of their magic and powers. However the fights don't last long enough for depletion of ammo to be a problem for these warriors (exceptions being Super Sonic, Super Shadow and Mario's invincibility powerups). Taokaka and Spawn can technically get more power during the fight, Taokaka can find new locations to absorb seithr while Spawn can absorb the evil energies of his enemies. Also some depictions of Spider-Man have him carry spare web magazines for his web shooters if they ever run out.
  • Does Wizard explain why he doesn't want to do a Death Battle with Uchiha Sasuke?
    • He just cannot stand the character enough to do adequate research.
  • It should be noted that it is difficult to compare characters normally if there is no basis to compare them with under these circumstances the hosts calculate how powerful a character would be based on elements and feats shown in canon.
    • It is difficult to confirm how lethal Doomguy's and Master Chief's weapons are since they use different technology and face foes with different armor or durability.
    • It is also difficult to measure the lethality of a Kamehameha against someone like Superman as some DBZ villains like Broly showed no visible damage from a point blank Kamehameha yet was defeated by a full power one in the same film. Since it is hard to tell Broly's defenses from Superman's as both appear indestructible- they had to resort to calculations.
  • What would they do with characters that always fight with a partner? Like in Soul Eater where meisters wield other characters as weapons for their default form of fighting.
    • The show has made certain exceptions. For instance, Saba helped Tommy out in Tigerzord vs Epyon because he is a talking sword and necessary to operate the Tiger Zord. At the same time Pikachu wasn't allowed to have Ash command him. Maybe if the fight is 2 on 2 or both of them had equippable allies it would be allowed.
  • Foreshadowing: On a meta level, even without the data, the outcome of Goku Vs Superman was seemingly decided before the match starts if you look at the aesops some Death Battles have stealthily snuck in:
    • The popular character will not always win. Spawn Vs Kratos was a clear example. Goku is more popular amongst nerd culturenote .
    • Underestimating Badassery: Has happened numerous amounts of times in other battles such as Yoshi Vs Riptor and Peach Vs Zelda where the loser was thought to have won before either research was conducted or the match was released. The Man of Steel sometimes gets the short stick because he's always holding back and Goku has never blown up planets in canon.
    • Characters who exert a pre-emptive attack before the FIGHT! animation and sound tend to lose. Goku unleashed a ki blast on Superman before that happened.
    • Characters who are "waiting" for the other character to enter the battlefield tend to win. Superman was already there and Goku then showed up.
    • The win/loss trivia fact gives this conclusion as well: Vegeta won his battle, Wonder Woman and Batman lost both of theirs. Interestingly enough Superman has TRAINED with both of them before
    • Link's victory over Cloud, and Leonardo's over Zitz, shows that just attacking to the end will not always yield victory. Goku's simple mindedness cost him the match.
    • A difference between training and combat. Mike Haggar having a political agenda and therefore less trained than Zangief is the only aesop that does not apply here since Goku has trained more often to better himself. However, much unlike Haggar, Superman doesn't have to train, he's strong enough without doing so.yet at the same time, another Aesop added later seemingly counters this one, Superman is always fighting, while Goku often leaves combat to train, and is as a result, less experienced fighting others, only taking on a Big Bad a series compared to Superman's constant brawls with various villains like Doomsday, Zod, Darkseid, Mongul, and others who are as strong as he is.
  • The spirit of Death Battle is to find out who would win in a fight, and even though the rules explicitly require a death, in the case of Nigh Invulnerable characters who have no reliable means of killing each other, it would definitely be logical to make an exception so that the win condition is to trap or disable instead of kill or in such a situation, revoke such a power for the intent of the battle.
  • Why have they been dragging up the Superman vs Goku results so much lately? They had Deadpool joke about it in his episode and that ad in Kirby vs Buu talked about it too.
    • Because even now people are still decrying the results of that battle and claiming it all to be bias. Deadpool is a Fourth Wall Breaker, so he would know all about that sort of backlash, and Kirby vs Buu was another Dragon Ball character fight who also lost, so maybe they were subtly hinting to the results. In addition, it might just be that Wiz and Boomstick are tried of the constant badgering so they saw these as the perfect opportunity to sneak in a few Take That to the Fan Dumb.
  • Is it ever stated what the rules are for the Arena? It's stated that that the arena doesn't effect the outcome of the battle but that's not possible with some of the characters. Batman for example is known for both the use of his Bat Grapple and stealth. A fight with Batman in a sunny field is a radically different fight than one in a city. What are the rules pertaining to characters whose power varies wildly depending on different circumstances? For example, if you have a character with a static (non-moving) power source whose abilities vary with distance, then how far away from the power source is the fight? If a character relies on sunlight, will the calculations for strength/speed/etc. be based on daytime or nighttime measurements? For a more specific example, look at Neo from The Matrix. Inside the Matrix, he's a reality-warping force of nature. Outside (yes, there is a point in the third act of the third movie where he apparently blows up some robots with his mind, but that's nothing compared to what he does inside the matrix) of it he's more or less an ordinary guy.
    • When the location is relevant, it is factored in. For instance, Leo vs Zitz had Leo use the stealth of the sewer because he is a ninja. Goku vs Superman is more ambiguous. Perhaps the hosts felt that Goku wouldn't want to fight Superman under a red star.
      • That's also assuming Goku had prior knowledge of Superman's red sun weakness. Which by rules of Death Battle, he wouldn't.
      • The location should be mentioned if it could have an impact n the fight, but sometimes isn’t. In Superman’s case his stats should have been nerfed by being on Earth, which has less sunlight than space (where all of his feats used for his stats took place). In fact whether it is completely sunny or somewhat cloudy is a factor that determines his strength, meaning it is also a technically imbalanced terrain. Goku also should have been smart enough to realize Superman was actively trying to remain in the sun that it was powering him and he could therefore teleport him to somewhere on Earth where is was dark. It seems to be very inconsistent on whether the terrain does matter, and is not always addressed. While Goliath vs. Beast has to happen at night because Goliath is a statue during the day, having Batman vs. Captain America at night gives Batman huge advantage in use of his stealth compared to a day battle (if Batman had to fight Cap head on it probably would have gone like JLA/Avengers said it would. Cap would win after a LONG time, presumably because being a Super Soldier would allow him to fight at full strength for longer). In Kirby vs. Buu, the land is filled with enemies for Kirby to absorb and give him so many powers, while they are basically useless to Buu, is an advantage (not to mention the position of the fighters relative to the sun is the contrivance that lets them claim Kirby could kill Buu). In most cases it doesn’t matter, in some it is factored in, while in others where it is potentially game changing, it isn’t addressed which is rather questionable.
  • Why do they assume all forms of strength and speed are the same? They’re measurements of strength often come from how much a character can lift/throw but that does not directly translate into how hard they can punch. They also assume travel speed is the same as fighting speed. Flying in a straight line for a long time (often needing to build up speed and not able to stop instantly) is not the same as the reaction speed and reflexes needed to fight at high speeds, or how fast they can throw a punch. This makes a lot of calculations questionable. The same thing happens with perception versus reaction time. A character can sense something coming but not be fast enough to actually stop it (for example seeing an oncoming car coming but not being able to move out of the way). If they want to bring math into their calculations they shouldn’t simplify the stats to make those numbers seem more important.
    • It was explained above; Lifting capacity =/= striking power. Striking power/force is Mass x Velocity, and in Goku's case it's also amplified by his ki. If we apply the same Mass x Velocity principle to Superman, he indeed gets the upper hand in raw strength
      • That is indeed true (not answering the Goku vs. Superman part because that is not relevant here). However, that was not my question. My question was why, in Death Battle, when they list a character's "strength" do they always use lifting strength? They do compare Goku and Superman's strength, they list Iron Man's strength, Beast's strength and Kirby's strength to name a few, and all are based on either lifting or throwing. In a fight how much a character can bench press is meaningless, yet they consistently include it as a factor, not the Mass x Velocity that you mentioned.
      • Because someone who can lift 100 pounds is still stronger than someone who can lift 10 pounds.
      • But “stronger” does not really mean anything. Lifting strength and punching strength are not the same thing (in fact the build needed for a martial artist and a body builder are so different that either would suck at the other feat). Max lifting feats always are the upper limit a character can carry with effort, meaning they need to use all their strength to do so and lift with their whole body. How hard someone can punch is done with either just a hand, or with waist movement and stepping (discounting flying characters) and a trained fighter can punch at full strength many times before tiring out. Let me ask you a question to prove why the general term “strength” does not necessarily apply to a fight. Who is faster, Usain Bolt or Bruce Lee? One can run really fast while the other could strike with his limbs so fast that most people can barely see them. The question of who is faster is unanswerable but the question of “who would win in a fight” is, obviously Bruce Lee. Different types of strength are needed for different situations and lifting strength does not matter for a fight. A person could only lift ten pounds but still deliver a punch strong enough to knock out someone who can lift 100.