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* So...did Gearbox contract Creator/{{Funimation}} for the voice acting, or what? Because like 90% of the voices are anime regulars, who generally don't do video games. Sure, Creator/ColleenClinkenbeard was in the first one, but we've also got Creator/LuciChristian, Creator/RobertMcCollum, Creator/ChristopherSabat, Creator/JamieMarchi...I think the only ones I didn't hear were people like Creator/MicahSolusod and Creator/MonicaRial, who are probably busy with ''LightNovel/ACertainMagicalIndex''. I'm not complaining, just...what?

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* So...did Gearbox contract Creator/{{Funimation}} for the voice acting, or what? Because like 90% of the voices are anime regulars, who generally don't do video games. Sure, Creator/ColleenClinkenbeard was in the first one, but we've also got Creator/LuciChristian, Creator/RobertMcCollum, Creator/ChristopherSabat, Creator/JamieMarchi...I think the only ones I didn't hear were people like Creator/MicahSolusod and Creator/MonicaRial, who are probably busy with ''LightNovel/ACertainMagicalIndex''.''Literature/ACertainMagicalIndex''. I'm not complaining, just...what?
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TRS wick cleaning, closest other trope I could find


* So what ''really'' happened to Handsome Jack's wife? He says that Angel accidentally killed her with her Siren powers, but Jack is a liar and manipulator with severe MoralDissonance. An audio log alludes to her "disappearance" and objection to using Angel as a WetwareCPU. So did Handsome Jack kill her to seize control of Angel? Did she leave Jack? Or did Angel really kill her after all?

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* So what ''really'' happened to Handsome Jack's wife? He says that Angel accidentally killed her with her Siren powers, but Jack is a liar and manipulator with and a severe MoralDissonance.{{Hypocrite}}. An audio log alludes to her "disappearance" and objection to using Angel as a WetwareCPU. So did Handsome Jack kill her to seize control of Angel? Did she leave Jack? Or did Angel really kill her after all?
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** Chronologically, it seems that ''Dragon Keep'' is supposed to take place after the main game, ''Pirate's Booty'', ''Campaign of Carnage'', and ''Big Game Hunt'', so the player should have completed everything else before entering the fantasy world. This is complicated a bit with the Headhunter packs, but I suppose there's enough time between the ''Bunkers & Badasses'' game and Halloween for the Vault Hunters to say "Hey, Torque, remember that game we played? Can you make me a gun like I had in there?" How the Vault Hunters managed to learn the game's spells in real life is a better question, [[WildMassGuessing unless of course]] [[CrazyAwesome Tina's Bunkers & Badasses game came with]] [[AWizardDidIt an actual spellbook]], which somehow seems somewhat plausible in [[RuleOfCool the Borderlands universe]].

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** Chronologically, it seems that ''Dragon Keep'' is supposed to take place after the main game, ''Pirate's Booty'', ''Campaign of Carnage'', and ''Big Game Hunt'', so the player should have completed everything else before entering the fantasy world. This is complicated a bit with the Headhunter packs, but I suppose there's enough time between the ''Bunkers & Badasses'' game and Halloween for the Vault Hunters to say "Hey, Torque, remember that game we played? Can you make me a gun like I had in there?" How the Vault Hunters managed to learn the game's spells in real life is a better question, [[WildMassGuessing unless of course]] [[CrazyAwesome [[RuleOfCool Tina's Bunkers & Badasses game came with]] [[AWizardDidIt an actual spellbook]], which somehow seems somewhat plausible in [[RuleOfCool the Borderlands universe]].
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dewicking finaldeath per trs


** If New-U stations are canon, the most logical way to explain Roland suffering from a FinalDeath is because Handsome Jack made sure that the leader of LaResistance would be disconnected from the network (New-U is a Hyperion service, after all).

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** If New-U stations are canon, the most logical way to explain Roland suffering from a FinalDeath being KilledOffForReal is because Handsome Jack made sure that the leader of LaResistance would be disconnected from the network (New-U is a Hyperion service, after all).
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removing slur


** Yeah, remember, Loaders ''have eyes''. They can visually ''see'' that said Siren/gun-toting dwarf/heavily-armed commando/walking Metal Gear reference/teenage mechanic+deathbot/massive walking slab of meat doesn't look anything like Jack. Even if they can't, the Hyperion soldiers running around can, and can issue alerts as to the actual threat. And if for some retarded reason ''they'' can't, then ''Handsome Jack himself is watching you attack the mountain'' and can issue orders to his Loaders. Hell, the bio-signature doesn't even fool the death wall. The only thing that the bio-signature works on is the biometric scanner itself.

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** Yeah, remember, Loaders ''have eyes''. They can visually ''see'' that said Siren/gun-toting dwarf/heavily-armed commando/walking Metal Gear reference/teenage mechanic+deathbot/massive walking slab of meat doesn't look anything like Jack. Even if they can't, the Hyperion soldiers running around can, and can issue alerts as to the actual threat. And if for some retarded reason ''they'' can't, then ''Handsome Jack himself is watching you attack the mountain'' and can issue orders to his Loaders. Hell, the bio-signature doesn't even fool the death wall. The only thing that the bio-signature works on is the biometric scanner itself.
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** Also, blowing up the bridge doesn't really do anything to hurt Sanctuary. This is [[DeathWorld Pandora]] after all. They don't have caravans of food coming in from outlying farms. The Fast Travel network and digistruct tech (plus vending machines) generally takes care of food.
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** To expand on how it might work. The original plan might have been some kind of active stabilization. So as gun is fired it monitors what the gun is doing and actively shifts its balance and applies forces to compensate for recoil, movement etc., but Hyperion being, well Hyperion messed it up by having the stabilization work constantly and having no "neutral setting when not fired" which resulted in the system going crazy (ie move and shift randomly) if it gets low to no input. Which means that before you start firing the gun is randomly shifting balance and applying random forces in random directions and the only way to stop it and having it work as intended is to supply the correct data for long enough time for the system to resynchronize itself.
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** Because she enjoys fighting, like most Vault Hunters. Borderlands 3 shows this pretty clearly: for as much a relatively nice person she is, she still enjoys fighting and kicking ass.
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** This probably depends on how much of a TokenGoodTeammate she is. [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation Or really how much of one we assume she actually is]], since the Vault Hunters of 2 don’t talk much. Maya isn’t fond of killing unarmed people who don’t deserve it. Even the old Vault Hunters aren’t. Heck, in Salvador’s [=ECHO=]’s he told the villagers to get down when Hyperion attacked his town. Bandits, Hyperion and whatever else is trying to kill them are another story.

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** This probably depends on how much of a TokenGoodTeammate she is. [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation Or really how much of one we assume she actually is]], since the Vault Hunters of 2 don’t talk much. Maya isn’t fond of killing unarmed people who don’t deserve it. Even the old Vault Hunters aren’t. Heck, in Salvador’s [=ECHO=]’s he told the yelled his fellow villagers to get down when Hyperion attacked his town. Bandits, Hyperion and whatever else is trying to kill them are another story.
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** This probably depends on how much of a TokenGoodTeammate she is. [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation Or really how much of one we assume she actually is]], since the Vault Hunters of 2 don’t talk much. Maya isn’t fond of killing unarmed people who don’t deserve it. Even the old Vault Hunters aren’t. Heck, in Salvador’s [=ECHO=]’s he told the villagers to get down when Hyperion attacked his town. Bandits, Hyperion and whatever else is trying to kill them are another story.
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[[/folder]]

[[folder: Maya's laugh]]
* Why does Maya frequently do an EvilLaugh, considering she's the TokenGoodTeammate? Is it [[MirthlessLaughter maybe more out of stress/relief she survived than a real evil laugh?]]
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* A better question would be [[CutsceneIncompetence why he wasn't wearing a shield at the time.]]
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** Another possibility is that they can't produce explosives/combustibles/anything that generates energy from nothing (or maybe they can, but it's not economical, hence why ammo can still be stored in a storage deck). This would explain why ammo can't be produced except by higher level weapons and class mods, or by absorbing the energy of several bullets with the right sheild (they can make the guns, digistruct whatever features a grenade mod provides onto a protean grenade, but still need a supply of ammo/"blank" grenades to provide the energy and sometimes extra ammo to provide the energy for extra effects) and why Scooter freaked out about the petrol eating rakks in the TORGUE DLC.

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** Another possibility is that they can't produce explosives/combustibles/anything that generates energy from nothing (or maybe they can, but it's not economical, hence why ammo can still be stored in a storage deck). This would explain why ammo can't be produced except by higher level weapons and class mods, or by absorbing the energy of several bullets with the right sheild shield (they can make the guns, digistruct whatever features a grenade mod provides onto a protean grenade, but still need a supply of ammo/"blank" grenades to provide the energy and sometimes extra ammo to provide the energy for extra effects) and why Scooter freaked out about the petrol eating rakks in the TORGUE DLC.
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** Borderlands 3 clears this up; Angel ''did'' accidentally kill her own mother. Jack was telling the truth.

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** Borderlands 3 clears this up; Angel ''did'' accidentally kill her own mother. Jack was telling the truth. \n [[spoiler: A bandit was holding Angel hostage after finding out she had siren powers. While Jack begged the bandit to let her go, a frightened Angel used her powers to trigger the bandit's turrets. This killed the bandit, but also, unfortunately, killed her mother too.]]
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** Borderlands 3 clears this up; Angel ''did'' accidentally kill her own mother. Jack was telling the truth.
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** Actually, it's given to him if you let Lilith kill him in the endgame. That head model is from his corpse. You can literally watch it be burned onto him. It's more of a general Pandora/Vault symbol anyway.

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** Actually, it's given to him if you let *** The Pre-Sequel showed that Lilith kill burned the symbol into Jack's face when she attacked him while Phasewalking at the end of the game to keep him from getting the device in the endgame. That head model is from his corpse. You can literally watch it be burned onto him. It's more of a general Pandora/Vault symbol anyway.Elpis Vault.
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** Claptrap and his entire product line are incredibly erratic and buggy. That alone probably accounts for the inconsistency.


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** Sanctuary's fast travel network pre-dates Hyperion's presence (the only time Sanctuary was cut off was when Atlas beseiged it five years previously in the first game) and they have their own unique access codes. Plus, digistruct tech means that they can probably just make their own food supplies.
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** ''Because'' it isn't as fun or exciting as blasting the city with a moonshot cannon. Jack isn't the type of guy to do "simple and efficient" - he wants to hear the screams of the filthy bandits frying in their hovels as he burns them all to the ground. It's Jack's thirst for vengeance and love of the spectacular that drives him to more destructive and less foolproof methods of wiping out the Crimson Raiders - namely, The Warrior, because that's what Jack believes the Raiders ''deserve''.
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* Why doesn't Jack simply starve Sanctuary out by destroying the bridge leading to Sanctuary (their only aupply line, I assume) and cutting off their access to all the other fast travel stations in the game? Sure, it isn't as fun or exciting as blasting the city itself with a moonshot cannon but it is much more simple and efficent then what he actually tried.

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* Why doesn't Jack simply starve Sanctuary out by destroying the bridge leading to Sanctuary (their only aupply supply line, I assume) and cutting off their access to all the other fast travel stations in the game? Sure, it isn't as fun or exciting as blasting the city itself with a moonshot cannon but it is much more simple and efficent then what he actually tried.
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[[/folder]]
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[[Folder: Starving them out]]

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[[Folder: Starving [[folder:Starving them out]]
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[[Folder: Starving them out]]
* Why doesn't Jack simply starve Sanctuary out by destroying the bridge leading to Sanctuary (their only aupply line, I assume) and cutting off their access to all the other fast travel stations in the game? Sure, it isn't as fun or exciting as blasting the city itself with a moonshot cannon but it is much more simple and efficent then what he actually tried.

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** Not only would the raid bosses (Crawmerax, if he's still alive, and Terramorphous especially) be a big problem for the Warrior, but what about Buzzards? The Warrior has no real anti-air capability and would have a hard time hitting Buzzards with its thrown rocks. Since bandits
hundreds of them compared to the one Warrior, they could easily overwhelm the guy and kill him.

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** Not only would the raid bosses (Crawmerax, if he's still alive, and Terramorphous especially) be a big problem for the Warrior, but what about Buzzards? The Warrior has no real anti-air capability and would have a hard time hitting Buzzards with its thrown rocks. Since bandits
bandits have hundreds of them compared to the one Warrior, they could easily overwhelm the guy and kill him.

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** Not only would the raid bosses (Crawmerax, if he's still alive, and Terramorphous especially) be a big problem for the Warrior, but what about Buzzards? The Warrior has no real anti-air capability and would have a hard time hitting Buzzards with its thrown rocks. Since bandits have hundreds of them compared to the one Warrior, they could easily overwhelm the guy and kill him.

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** Not only would the raid bosses (Crawmerax, if he's still alive, and Terramorphous especially) be a big problem for the Warrior, but what about Buzzards? The Warrior has no real anti-air capability and would have a hard time hitting Buzzards with its thrown rocks. Since bandits have bandits
hundreds of them compared to the one Warrior, they could easily overwhelm the guy and kill him.




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** Even if Jack did defeat the Vault Hunters with the Warrior, he would still be no match for Vladof's Ursa Corps.
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Adding Spoilers Off warning on top


New entries on the bottom. '''Beware''' spoilers.

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New entries on the bottom. '''Beware''' spoilers.
!Per wiki policy, Administrivia/SpoilersOff applies here and all spoilers are unmarked. Administrivia/YouHaveBeenWarned.
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** It's confirmed in deleted files, that, yes, [[spoiler: Angel hacked the New-U station...and Jack both knows about it, and will TAUNT you over it.]]
** The one about nobody in charge at Hyperion wanting Jack back makes sense enough, but consider this: perhaps those who are resurrected via New-U are not legally entitled to the properties they owned before death? How else would you keep undesirables from staying in power for eternity? So even if Jack does come back he won't have access to any of the resources that allowed him to become a genocidal tyrant.

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** It's confirmed in deleted files, that, yes, [[spoiler: Angel hacked the New-U station...and Jack both knows about it, and will TAUNT you over it.]]
it.
** The one about nobody in charge at Hyperion wanting Jack back makes sense enough, but consider this: perhaps those who are resurrected via New-U are not legally entitled to the properties they owned before death? How else would you keep undesirables from staying in power for eternity? So even if Jack does come back he won't have access to any of the resources that allowed him to become a genocidal tyrant.
tyrant.



** Think about it, [[spoiler: she was hooked up to an Eridium Injection system for YEARS and when it was finally removed, she died.]] If a New-U station revived her exactly as she was, it would Digistruct [[spoiler: a body that would immediately die of Eridium withdrawal anyway, only to be resurrected again, then die of withdrawal, then die again, etc. etc.]] So yeah, she probably took herself out.

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** Think about it, [[spoiler: she was hooked up to an Eridium Injection system for YEARS and when it was finally removed, she died.]] died. If a New-U station revived her exactly as she was, it would Digistruct [[spoiler: a body that would immediately die of Eridium withdrawal anyway, only to be resurrected again, then die of withdrawal, then die again, etc. etc.]] So yeah, she probably took herself out.



** Jack is ''ridiculously'' dishonest. Just because his preferred method is manipulation than outright lying doesn't mean he never lies when it could benefit him. (Consider that he spends the first act of the game trying to kill you and/or telling you you should die [[spoiler:when his master plan relies on your survival and infiltration of Sanctuary]]. Or lying to his boss about why he's dispatched a Hyperion satellite to Pandora.)

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** Jack is ''ridiculously'' dishonest. Just because his preferred method is manipulation than outright lying doesn't mean he never lies when it could benefit him. (Consider that he spends the first act of the game trying to kill you and/or telling you you should die [[spoiler:when when his master plan relies on your survival and infiltration of Sanctuary]].Sanctuary. Or lying to his boss about why he's dispatched a Hyperion satellite to Pandora.) )



* What's up with Handsome Jack's face? Close examination of Jack's face reveals that his face seems to have been transplanted onto his skull. The skin tone of the face itself has a slightly different, lighter color than the flesh surrounding it. There is also a clear line where the face seems to have been grafted to his skull, and metal clips at the temples and chin that hold it in place. [[http://cdn-thumbs.viddler.com/thumbnail_2_ac5c73ea_v2.jpg See it here]]. Further, During the "Get To Know Jack" quest in the Arid Nexus, the Player Character is tasked with [[spoiler: picking up five ECHO recorder units from across the area. Listening to the voice logs, it becomes apparent that Jack used to be a mid-management toady at Hyperion before blackmailing and/or killing his boss and assuming control.]] And at one point, [[spoiler: Jack's boss mentions that Jack has had extensive plastic surgery. The boss also refers to Jack as wearing "a mask."]] Further, upon defeating the final boss and winning the first play-through, [[spoiler: Jack's disembodied face shows up as a pickup amid the massive loot drop, and if acquired by the PC, it's shown to be a "skin" you can use for yourself at the head-swap kiosk.]] So, what gives? What's the story, there?

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* What's up with Handsome Jack's face? Close examination of Jack's face reveals that his face seems to have been transplanted onto his skull. The skin tone of the face itself has a slightly different, lighter color than the flesh surrounding it. There is also a clear line where the face seems to have been grafted to his skull, and metal clips at the temples and chin that hold it in place. [[http://cdn-thumbs.viddler.com/thumbnail_2_ac5c73ea_v2.jpg See it here]]. Further, During the "Get To Know Jack" quest in the Arid Nexus, the Player Character is tasked with [[spoiler: picking up five ECHO recorder units from across the area. Listening to the voice logs, it becomes apparent that Jack used to be a mid-management toady at Hyperion before blackmailing and/or killing his boss and assuming control.]] And at one point, [[spoiler: Jack's boss mentions that Jack has had extensive plastic surgery. The boss also refers to Jack as wearing "a mask."]] " Further, upon defeating the final boss and winning the first play-through, [[spoiler: Jack's disembodied face shows up as a pickup amid the massive loot drop, and if acquired by the PC, it's shown to be a "skin" you can use for yourself at the head-swap kiosk.]] kiosk. So, what gives? What's the story, there? there?



** There's an image of Handsome Jack [[http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/File:1348620070076.jpg without his mask]]. WildMassGuessing here, but [[spoiler:the fact that the scar matches the symbol that the Psychos wear on their masks]] suggests that Jack was [[spoiler:disfigured and branded by a group of bandits]], explaining his irrational hatred for the inhabitants of Pandora.
** Actually, it's given to him [[spoiler: if you let Lilith kill him in the endgame. That head model is from his corpse.]] You can literally watch it be burned onto him. It's more of a general Pandora/Vault symbol anyway.

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** There's an image of Handsome Jack [[http://borderlands.wikia.com/wiki/File:1348620070076.jpg without his mask]]. WildMassGuessing here, but [[spoiler:the the fact that the scar matches the symbol that the Psychos wear on their masks]] masks suggests that Jack was [[spoiler:disfigured disfigured and branded by a group of bandits]], bandits, explaining his irrational hatred for the inhabitants of Pandora.
** Actually, it's given to him [[spoiler: if you let Lilith kill him in the endgame. That head model is from his corpse.]] You can literally watch it be burned onto him. It's more of a general Pandora/Vault symbol anyway.



** Just to clear this up for once and for all-in the Pre-Sequel, we get to see an Echo portrait of Harold Tassiter, then the CEO of Hyperion, and he looks ''nothing'' like Jack. Also, Jack had the [[spoiler: Vault Key punched into his face by Lilith]], so he wears a mask. Said mask looks like his old face-unscarred, good looking and with heterochromic eyes (slightly larger though.)

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** Just to clear this up for once and for all-in the Pre-Sequel, we get to see an Echo portrait of Harold Tassiter, then the CEO of Hyperion, and he looks ''nothing'' like Jack. Also, Jack had the [[spoiler: Vault Key punched into his face by Lilith]], Lilith, so he wears a mask. Said mask looks like his old face-unscarred, good looking and with heterochromic eyes (slightly larger though.)



** this is kind of on a different subject but I think it fits this folder's content. So Jack has [[spoiler:A siren for a daughter and is using her to charge the vault key]]. Now if he just bided his time and waited for the vault key to finish charging and for his men to get the warrior. Then he simply has to just use the warrior to kill everyone. Simple as that. So then, why is he randomly hiring and killing vault hunters claiming them to be bandits when he brought them here? What was the point of even [[spoiler:tricking the new vault hunters into taking out Sanctuary's shield? Hell, why did he do anything other than wait?]] Seriously, the only reason Jack lost is because he hired, attempted to kill, and kept pissing off the new vault hunters. If he never hired them they would never have joined the resistance whom would ineffectively pound away at Hyperion until they all died.

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** this is kind of on a different subject but I think it fits this folder's content. So Jack has [[spoiler:A A siren for a daughter and is using her to charge the vault key]].key. Now if he just bided his time and waited for the vault key to finish charging and for his men to get the warrior. Then he simply has to just use the warrior to kill everyone. Simple as that. So then, why is he randomly hiring and killing vault hunters claiming them to be bandits when he brought them here? What was the point of even [[spoiler:tricking tricking the new vault hunters into taking out Sanctuary's shield? Hell, why did he do anything other than wait?]] wait? Seriously, the only reason Jack lost is because he hired, attempted to kill, and kept pissing off the new vault hunters. If he never hired them they would never have joined the resistance whom would ineffectively pound away at Hyperion until they all died.



** It's possible to encounter a respawn glitch out and lose most of your money. You went from many, many, many times the money counter cap, to effectively nothing. Maybe Hyperion pulled the same thing on the Old Vault Hunters? What're they going to do, cancel their subscription? [[spoiler:Actually, that explains a few things about Roland...]]
** Mordy, at least, is implied to have simply drank the money away (and given who he is, this is not entirely unplausable). Roland had to fund the entirety of the Crimson Raiders, as his recruitment echos said that he's able to provide food and shelter to anyone who needs it, and likely still has a considerable sum that is locked away only for Raider-related expenses. Lilith is implied to have funded her "one-woman war" against the bandits out of her pocket for the same amount of time, and there's no indication Brick is poor at all (he is the king of one of the largest bandit gangs, which can't be cheap). That or all their money got burnt up when Wilhelm sacked New Haven.

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** It's possible to encounter a respawn glitch out and lose most of your money. You went from many, many, many times the money counter cap, to effectively nothing. Maybe Hyperion pulled the same thing on the Old Vault Hunters? What're they going to do, cancel their subscription? [[spoiler:Actually, Actually, that explains a few things about Roland...]]
Roland...
** Mordy, at least, is implied to have simply drank the money away (and given who he is, this is not entirely unplausable). Roland had to fund the entirety of the Crimson Raiders, as his recruitment echos said that he's able to provide food and shelter to anyone who needs it, and likely still has a considerable sum that is locked away only for Raider-related expenses. Lilith is implied to have funded her "one-woman war" against the bandits out of her pocket for the same amount of time, and there's no indication Brick is poor at all (he is the king of one of the largest bandit gangs, which can't be cheap). That or all their money got burnt up when Wilhelm sacked New Haven.



** According to the ''[=PreSequel=]'', Jack was also driven insane by [[spoiler: both getting the Vault's knowledge uploaded into his brain and getting his face scarred by Lilith]], which explains his fixation on activating the Warrior.

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** According to the ''[=PreSequel=]'', Jack was also driven insane by [[spoiler: both getting the Vault's knowledge uploaded into his brain and getting his face scarred by Lilith]], Lilith, which explains his fixation on activating the Warrior.



*** I would like to if it means he can keep opening doors for me, but I see your point. It’d be consistent for the characters to take the opportunity to leave him behind

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*** I would like to if it means he can keep opening doors for me, but I see your point. It’d It'd be consistent for the characters to take the opportunity to leave him behind behind



** It’s inconsistent, yes, but if you’d like an explanation then presumably getting his mechanical eye forcibly torn out by the still running wires sends off more error signals and alerts than getting kicked in the chassis by Bandits. And if we’re going by the assumption that Claptrap still has his armored chassis from The Pre-Sequel, then getting kicked in the armor probably doesn’t compare too much to getting getting shot and mauled by monsters/trained military personnel that are stronger than the average human.

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** It’s It's inconsistent, yes, but if you’d you'd like an explanation then presumably getting his mechanical eye forcibly torn out by the still running wires sends off more error signals and alerts than getting kicked in the chassis by Bandits. And if we’re we're going by the assumption that Claptrap still has his armored chassis from The Pre-Sequel, then getting kicked in the armor probably doesn’t doesn't compare too much to getting getting shot and mauled by monsters/trained military personnel that are stronger than the average human.
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*** Considering nobody knew about Angel, and it's mentioned his second wife 'disappeared' (Jack claiming she 'bolted' in TFTBL) after finding out about her, Moxxi doesn't count, she was just one of Jack's (apparently many) girlfriends before she dumped him after realising he was a monster. The ECHO logs ''are'' referring to two separate wives though, the clarification in Tales was likely to address this confusion.
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** Possibly, despite his size, CL4P-TP might be REALLY heavy

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