'''Viewers Are Geniuses''' launched as ViewersAreGeniusesDiscussion: [[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=ak9p8oxl&trope=ViewersAreGeniusesDiscussion From YKTTW]]

Working Title: Viewers Are Geniuses: [[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=ak9p8oxl&trope=ViewersAreGeniuses From YKTTW]]

{{Lord Helmchen}}: A big issue I have with this page: Why do people keep applying this trope to works where there are elements hard to understand, but the work is still clearly enjoyable without any special subject knowledge (i.e. it falls squarely into GeniusBonus, which is explicitly contrasted in the description). You don't actually have to have an understanding of Existentialism to find Objects in Space an enjoyable episode, you need not know sod-all about English or other poets to enjoy the plot or prose of Hyperion, Works like WheelOfTime require at best a decent memory and attention span because of the LoadsAndLoadsOfCharacters and plotlines, and certainly no genius is required to enjoy the Flashman novels. Basically, stop using this trope (btw, I think "Experts" might work better than "Geniuses" for the title, since a brilliant quantum physicist might still know sod all about 13th century military tactics or Expressionist musicians) inflationarily, only apply it when you actually HAVE to have expert knowledge to comprehend/enjoy a certain work.

{{Caswin}}: Regarding the ''LordOfTheRings'' example... er, where's that coming from? I've never heard it before. (Meanwhile, something in the back of my mind is wondering whether this is a ViewersAreGeniuses hoax within the page itself. Great, now it's got me all paranoid.)

WilliamWideWeb: I think it's right but I'm not sure.

{{Filby}}: Tolkien wrote ''TheLordOfTheRings'' because his publisher insisted on a sequel to ''The Hobbit''; most of his linguistic work went into ''The Silmarilion'' after his death. So I'm taking it out.
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{{Phred}}:
** This page has a bad name. Genius does not equal knowledgeable.

{{Ununnilium}}:
** This same troper actually learnt a ''tremendous lot'' about psychoanalysis, Jungian archetypes, and Kabbalah just trying to figure out ''Evangelion''. And still notices symbols and visual clues she hadn't noticed before even after watching it about a dozen times in eight years.

ConversationInTheMainPage.

* ''{{Noein}}'' features quantum physics a lot. At two points you will be confused in the plot if you don't understand SchrodingersCat.
** Then again, a lot of the quantum physics in this series was pure bogus, probably for the sake of the plot. It's good to watch for entertainment, but not science.

This kinda seems to go against the point of the page. >>;
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{{Ununnilium}}:
** This troper found that Death Note insulting to his intelligence, feeling instead that all the characters described as geniuses acted like certified mental retards on horse tranquilizers, making this more of Viewers Are Morons.

[[ConversationInTheMainPage This troper's opinion on the quality of the series has little to no bearing on its inclusion in this trope.]]

Later:
* Both ''DigimonAdventure'' and ''{{Yu-Gi-Oh}}'' featured demonic monsters with monsters coming out of it's crotch. Many assumed this was a case of [[FreudWasRight weirdness on the parts of the designers]], but this is actually a reference to medieval portrayals of Satan who was actually often depicted with a monster for a penis.

This seems more like OlderThanTheyThink.

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{{Haven}} Took out this example, because it has literally nothing to do with this trope.

--->*Robert Zemeckis joked that the hoverboards from ''BackToTheFuture 2'' were real, and instantly, Mattel was bombarded with inquiries from thousands who [[TheRedStapler wanted to get their hands on a working hoverboard!]]
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{{Ununnilium}}:
** Yeah, that's because the author isn't as smart as he thinks he is. ''DresdenCodak'' uses a lot of very complicated philisophical ideas, and gets most of them ''wrong''. Firmly in WhatDoYouMeanItsNotSymbolic territory.

No "this sucks" examples, please. ``


{{Rogue 7}}: Am I going crazy here? I swear there was a long entry on SuzumiyaHaruhi here, and if not there definitely should be. I just read Snow Mountain Syndrome. The puzzle involved an obscure mathematical reference for god's sake.
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{{Grimace}}: Some of these examples are pushing the boundaries, I feel. Now, I'm a huge fan of ''Lost'' and ''Supernatural'' - both are great, enjoyable programs...but you don't exactly have to be a ''genius'' to follow them. ''TheWire'', ''TheSopranos'' etc are more the kind of shows where you need at least to pay close attention. As mentioned by another troper, you don't actually need to know/understand all these philosophical references in ''Lost'' to follow the program, they just act as nice EasterEggs, in a way. I'd count ''Lost'' and ''Supernatural'' as more having HiddenDepths: nice programs to sit back and veg out on, but if you pay attention there's some real gems to be found. Thoughts? Comments?

{{R&G}} Perhaps there should be a happy medium where we can put the shows that don't look down on the viewers and will reward them for paying attention. (If that makes sense.) ''Supernatural'', for example, is a clever show that makes me want to kick myself sometimes but it's not like TheWire where you more than likely have to pay attention every second. I would probably put Buffy (before the SeasonalRot), Futurama and Lost in the middle category as well.

{{Grimace}}: I'm going to feel like a prick doing it, but I've cut-pasted the ''{{Supernatural}}'' entry here for now. Again, for the record, I watch and enjoy Supernatural immensely, but [[BrutalHonesty you hardly need to be a "genius" to follow it]]. 2 guys, cool car, fighting monsters. The extra stuff is there, and done reasonably well, but as R&G above said is more of a little bonus for those who are paying attention.

* ''{{Supernatural}}'' has shown, time and time again, that it's not a typical CW show. While it was promoted as ''TheHardyBoys'' with hotties, cars and demons, it more often than not goes to fucked up, complicated, usually miserable places. Examples? Take the final confrontation between Dean and his Dream!Self in ''Dream A Little Dream Of Me''. He's yelling about what his Dad put on him but it's only his irrational four year old self (who would really love his mommy back) coming out, not to mention he's beating and killing himself and that the demon (i.e his pitiful lack of self-worth) comes back scarier and bigger than ever. Does that look like a reaffirmation of his self-esteem to you? No? You would be right... but many people did think that he became completely fine at that point.
**How about "What Is And What Should Never Be"? {{Mind Screw}}, {{Everyone is Jesus In Purgatory}}, the whole shebang. Trying to think your way through it at the end--is what Dean experienced what life would actually have been like if his mom hadn't died? Is it all an expression of his innermost desires and flaws? Is reality slipping in with all the references to drinking and sleeping or is that part of Dean's mental state?--''hurts''.

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{{Blork}}: Removed a comment about how ''{{Futurama}}'' fans weren't able to solve the alien languages before the DVD movie. The codes were solved, it's just that only 25 symbols from the second were ever shown and so fans had to wait for the DVD to finally find out what the final symbol was.

{{Maggoty Anne}} Didn't several Monty Python skits turn this into a punchline? Speaking extremely untintelligible (but intelligent) language very fast to be funny?
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{{Ouroboros}}: Cut the Wheel of Time one in literature. Complaining about prose or the over use of fictional words is not an example of this trope. Being able to wade through a bit of fictionary doesn't assume any kind of intelligence on the part of the reader.
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BigT: While Lain definitely deserves to be on this page, it is not nearly as incomprehensible as people claim. Once you understand the premise, you really don't need to understand the rest to get the plot. (Of course, it takes almost to the end of the series to understand the theme, so you pretty much have to watch the whole thing all over again.)

Bchambers--- What is the Reason for the 25 hours of freedom? I've searched and can't find it...