Passivesmoking: One thing that always seems to get overlooked in these dub vs sub debates is "What about people with less than perfect eyesight?" I'm an albino (not an EvilAlbino or a HeroicAlbino) and am extremely short sighted. This means that if something is subbed I have to sit on the floor in front of the TV to watch it, and even then I've got the option of either watching the picture or reading the subtitles, doing both at the same time is simply impossible for me. High definition only makes matters worse, because the extra pixels mean that the disc makers think they can get away with a smaller font. So for me, it's a case of either watch it dubbed, or only get to see the bottom two inches of it. Not an enjoyable experience.

DVDs with their multiple language tracks really ought to have put this argument to bed a long time ago, and it's rather sad that it still rages. Just please remember some of us have reasons other than being dumb for wanting to watch things dubbed instead of subbed.
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Wodan46: Why is it that Dubs often have squeaky high pitched voices for some or all of the characters, even though the original Japanese voices sound nothing like that? Honestly, I wouldn't mind dubs as much were it not for that incredibly irritating quality. I understand that nobody's perfect, but you could at least try speaking in the right tone.
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MisterSix: I just want to register my disgruntlement with people who complain about translators that don't go with direct translations. Replacing some cumbersome wording or a phrase that means nothing to people who aren't obsessed with Japanese culture is not a bad thing! In fact, that's exactly what a good translation is supposed to do. STOP BEING NERDS. Thank you.
* {{Rebochan}}: Dude, this is ''TVTropes''. We're ''already'' nerds for posting here in the first place. After all, MostTropersAreYoungNerds.

{{Tanto}}: Hear, hear.

Sort of semi-related...probably due to the mouth-flaps issue, the dub of ''{{Bleach}}'' decided to go with the original Japanese for the releases on the ''[[{{BFS}} zanpakuto]]'', "shikai" and "bankai". Before that, {{Wikipedia}} (evidently assuming they would be translated) was using "initial release" and "final release" on all its ''Bleach'' pages. It was kind of amusing, after the first episode of the dub to use "bankai" aired, to watch the Wikipedia editors scurrying around and changing all the pages...

HarpieSiren: ''Applauds MisterSix''

{{Lale}}: Maybe it's because I have a higher-than-average WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief, but I would prefer direct translations because logically, that's the closest thing you're gonna get to the original, and even the smallest change can change the original flavor. I have no problem looking up something that strikes me as weird or foreign to see what it means to the Japanese. "Cumbersome Japanese phrases" or mouth flaps have no bearing on the spirit of the work, but changes to the work/dialogue itself do.

AirOfMystery: I would disagree - Japanese translated literally into English is very formal, which seems inappropriate when it's someone like a little kid saying "I am disappointed" (not an actual example). It's a difficult thing to gauge, really.

{{Rebochan}}: I prefer that a subtitled translation be as close to direct as possible. If someone is taking the effort to watch the subtitles, they're already more likely to go and read up on cultural notes and other things. A dub should be less literal - the whole point of a dub is adaptating it into a more natural presentation in another language. I don't mean changing the plot, but things like a joke that only makes sense in Japanese or replacing an Osakan accent with a Southern accent. For what it's worth, the sub dub wars ended for me when DVDs became the dominant method of distribution because for the most part, everybody gets what they want.

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SilentHunter: When you translate stuff from French etc. into English, you lose the "tu"-"vous" distinction. What about the other way? To give an example, at what point in the French dub of ''CasinoRoyale'' do Bond and Vesper start saying "tu" to each other?

{{SpiriTsunami}}: Well, that's one thing I can agree with about my language. It oversimplifies things. While having [[JapanesePronouns over a dozen first-person singular pronouns]] is a bit much, the fact that English has one pronoun, "you", that covers four different tenses in other languages (tú, usted, vosotros, and ustedes--sorry I can't talk French with you; I took Spanish as my foreign language) is, well, a bit confusing. English doesn't really have anything for the formal "you", having to settle for some sort of title like "sir" or "ma'am" when trying to address someone politely, and then again, if you're familiar enough to address someone with the informal "you", you probably know their name--and using [[HeyYou "you"]] in that case would be impolite, unless you're ''that'' close and can just tease like that. But I'm more referring to the whole singular versus plural thing. A good portion of the country has no second-person plural that can be easily distinguished from the singular, which is why I, a northerner, have adopted the southern "y'all" into my vocabulary. It's a useful word.

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Lee M: I prefer anime in dub format, no matter what any purists may say. I don't see the point of listening to everybody babbling away in a non-Indo-European language that I'll ''never'' be able to understand while having to read the translations on screen. Anyway, since anime dialogue is all post-synced anyway, the lip-sync won't be any less accurate for the dub than for the original version. My only quibble is that dubs tend to be very long-winded, presumably due to the polysillabic nature of the Japanese language. But what the heck, it's a small price to pay

{{Caswin}}: It helps that, being able to only actually translate the odd word aside, you can't really call it "babbling." While by no means always the case, the Japanese voices tend to fit their roles better - or, in worse cases, they tend to be better actors, period - and believe me, it makes a difference.

Lee M: I agree, "babbling" was an inappropriate choice of words. What I meant of course was "speaking incomprehensibly from my poit of view".

{{Rebochan}}: For the reasons I explained above, I prefer the Japanese (or original track if it's another language) best because the actors were generally chosen during the production of the program and so was the script. I'd hate to see an American film's Spanish translation because I'd know something was lost there too. But in any case, I still don't see the need to justify everyone's viewing preferences when they're all catered to anyway. Is SubbingVersusDubbing SeriousBusiness?

{{Geese}}: Range. With great power to change the original work comes great ability to either make or break it. A good dub is awesome. A good sub is neat. A really bad dub is hilariously awful, or full-on awful. A really bad sub is just 'eh.'

With that in mind, SuperSamuraiPizzaCats taught me how good dubbing work and a lot of Woolseyism can salvage a, well, nonexistent original script in that case. 4Kids did... otherwise. There will never be a sub that will just floor you if the original work wouldn't, but never one that makes you want to throw up, either.

{{Rebochan}}: Whoa whoa WHOA! Do NOT mix up the glory of SamuraiPizzaCats with the evil 4Kids! Saban did that show, and the reason it was adapted like that was because nobody at Saban was given a script. They had to try and turn nothing but raw Japanese footage into a show. Theoretically, that should have resulted in a nightmarish mess. Because the English writers were talented, they actually made the whole thing work. Man I miss that show *sniff*.

OrangeAipom: If it's such a big deal, why can't those people learn a new language?

{{Tanto}}: Because that's something you can't do in a weekend?

{{Rebochan}}: Because learning a new language takes years of hard work, money, and time that a lot of people don't have when they could just pay someone else to translate for them? That's all you're doing when you're paying for a dubbed show anyway.

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{{Vert}} It's funny, but here in Brazil there is no big debate, because we're so used to subbing in any case since any adult movie (non-english too!) shown in a theater will, most likely, have something like over 75% of cinemas showing a sub version and I imagine that this is probably true in other countries too; is it worthwhile mentioning this?
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{{Rebochan}}: Well. ADV licensed CLANNAD last year and announced a dub. Now they've had to cancel it entirely and release the show in two sub-only half season sets. That sure brought out the torches and pitchforks. So, who's being unreasonable now? Give you a hint - it's not the people that are accepting the financial realities of a really, really bad anime market.

{{Ezekiel}}: [[SarcasmMode Oh sure, gloating over the misfortune of dub fans, misfortune which sub fans have themselves complained loudly about in the past, is perfectly reasonable. Yep, that's the most reasonably reasonable reasoning anyone has ever reasoned.]] Do you even 'listen' to yourself, man?

{{Rebochan}}: Pretty sure I'm not gloating. Since that would mean I would be enjoying the fact the industry is in such deep recession that they can't afford a dub track. I'm just not demanding that people cater to my specific needs ''in spite of'' reality. Its no secret Geneon went down because they licensed nothing but niche shows and they might have turned a profit on them had they not undertaken the expense of dubbing them without understanding that dubs don't automatically increase sales enough to make back their cost. If you think that makes me happy, think again - I don't care if there's a dub track, but I damn well know they're important to a lot of people and in the past, they opened up a lot of avenues for anime that just weren't there otherwise. Unfortunately, most of those gateways are now closed - television is almost completely closed off, DVD sales are rapidly shrinking, and retailers are starting to stop selling anime at all (Best Buy just stopped entirely). Instead of understanding that the market is in the toilet, the dub fans are raising holy hell that ADV or even companies that ''never'' dubbed their shows like Nozomi are deliberately spiting them. That's the definition of FanDumb. It's reasonable to be upset about the loss of the perfect medium we had over the last decade. It is not reasonable to blame the people trying to sell these shows and still make a profit for reacting to a situation they can't control.

{{Caswin}}: FanDumb should never be made to represent an entire group. Incidentally, if subbing really is "the perfect medium", why do dub fans even exist?

{{Rebochan}}: The perfect medium is having all shows released bilingual as a standard, sorry if I was unclear.
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{{SpiriTsunami}}: In regards to ''subs'' being too literal, I've seen dubs with the same problem. There are certain Japanese terms that have a different meaning than the literal meaning--onee-san, for example, which literally means "big sister", but is often used to refer to any CoolBigSis. Because there is no equivalent English phrase, it's something that is probably best left untranslated--something Geneon didn't quite figure out when dubbing ''ShakuganNoShana''. Geneon's usually pretty good when it comes to dubbing, but that was one part that really bothered me.
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{{Pavlov}}: Not to be a freak, but I like watching subs and listening to dubs together. Subs give me the original plot, dubs give me the cultural translation. I'd have never spotted the script changes in Spirited Away without using both.

{{Shellsh0cker}}: Seriously? Wow, that would drive me crazy, listening to the audio and reading a slightly different script below. Oh well, to each his own, I guess.
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{{Shellsh0cker}}: While I don't mind subtitled material, I prefer dubs when I can get my hands on them, and took it to be true that I always would. After all, the dubs for ''TheMelancholyOfHaruhiSuzumiya,'' ''DeathNote,'' and ''TengenToppaGurrenLagann'' were all quite good. Then I picked up the ''{{Kanon}}'' dub. *cringe* Gods, such horrible casting. I was just lucky it was a dual-audio version. Hear this, fans of dubbing: we are not always right. Sometimes the Japanese voices are just ''better''.
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What about people that don't like either?

{{Rebochan}} You mean mimes?

{{Cambdoranononononono}}: Then you dislike anime (or foreign media) and it's just ComplainingAboutShowsYouDontLike?
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Zack Morris-Brando: It sounds weird, I know, but I can't stand my native language in dramatic context; English, and any other language that has awkward, long words have a tendency to make my ears bleed in any show when serious moments come along (not true for all series, however). I include Western dramas, of course. French and Japanese are the only languages I actually like listening to, no matter the genre. Dubs, for this reason, generally ruin the mood a lot.
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Why is it that you don't see any haters of Japanese Dubbed Cartoons? Shouldn't the English Dubbed Anime Haters just loathe those as well? In fact, I see a whole lot of people who would like to see a Japanese Dub of a Cartoon. Even more crazy, I see the extreme English Dub Haters actually ''praising'' a Japanese Dub of an American Cartoon! It's like they've given up on American Voice Actors all together!

{{Cambdoranononononono}}: I imagine that most of the people who hate Japanese-dubbed Western animation live in Japan. On the whole, I assume people only worry about this when they can't watch the media in question in its original language unassisted. People complain about English dubs because it alters ''their'' viewing experience, whereas foreign dubs are about that of other people. Who watches a show dubbed over in a language they don't speak? (Okay, I watched MyNeighborTotoro that way, but who needs dialogue there? It has a ''cat'' that is a ''bus'', man.) In short, people who dislike dubs on principle might not approve of dubs in either direction, but they only have a reason to be vocal about it in one direction.

I haven't encountered anyone calling for Japanese dubs of western stuff, but I imagine those are kind of outside of the norm for the sub fandom and just consist of the people who idealize Japan. At that point they're just obsessive, and hence do have a reason to be vocal about it.

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[=UltimateChimera=]: What I have yet to see in the sub vs dub debate is a TeamSwitzerland person other than myself. Really, I couldn't care less about the language (as long as I have a way to understand it). I've watched my favourite anime both subbed and dubbed, and whether I liked either didn't matter. I only ever swing either way when I see a sub radical (then I pull out FLCL) or I'm actually trying to promote my otaku status at school (and then comes me totally bashing the BakuganBattleBrawlers voice cast). I've never seen an actual ''fan'' of anime in TeamSwitzerland. If only we all were...