[[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=x0dxhob6&trope=SmugSnake From YKTTW]]
Sneebs: What happened to the picture of Foss? I realize the character might not stand out as prominently as the snake from the Disney Robin hood, but the picture really gave the impression of a greasy bastard, which is why the trope is supposed to invoke, no?
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Dr. Doom: Would Impmon, from DigimonTamers, be an example of this trope? He seems to fit, but I thought I should ask here.
Danel: Hmm... I'm not sure if Impmon is a good example or not. Is it really MagnificentBastard that he's shooting for?
I had a few thoughts reading this, though... would it be fair to say that the prime differences between a MagnificentBastard and a SmugSnake are primarily of scope and scale? A lot of these SmugSnakes are ObstructiveBureaucrats and the like - minor and extremely annoying threats primarily dangerous in that they may slow the hero enough to seriously help the villain. And they don't do this intentionally - they tend to be largely unaware of the real conflict, and focused on minor things like their own personal power while the world itself is at stake. A MagnificentBastard would probably try to ensure that the world is saved and they end up on top; a SmugSnake often fails to realise the world needs to be saved.
Another: The MagnificentBastard uses their wits and an elaborate XanatosGambit to confuse legendary heroes and powerful demigods; The SmugSnake uses the same techniques to bewilder a nice old lady.
Even an unusual example like Cutler Beckett, who does end up as the main villain, is a smug snake rather than a magnificent bastard because he's doing it solely for cash and control.
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{{Earnest}}: I rather liked those paragraphs on Yagami about the Bastard->Snake slide, so I'm moving part of them to the main article.
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WandersNowhere: Shifting Theron up from Comic Books to Film, since the storyline between Gorgo and Theron was added in the movie and isn't present in the comics.
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{{Medinoc}}: Erm... I fail to see how [[CommandAndConquer Seth]] fits the trope...
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{{Marikina}}: Does Jake Roberts really count as an example? The quote in question was taken from the climax of an angle that featured a particularly devious BatmanGambit, and a FaceHeelTurn that kicked off probably Jake's best work as a {{Heel}} (and material aspiring {{Heel}}s can learn a lot from).
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Why is Magnificent Bastard a subjective trope and not this? Especially considering the only difference between them appears to be how much you like the character.
{{Earnest}}: Because while a writer can fail to write Magnificent Bastard (thus making the character a Smug Snake) (subjective), a writer can much more easily intentionally pull off writing a character as a Smug Snake (non-subjective). And since a lot of authors invoke this trope intentionally to make a character a Smug Snake (and the snake usually ''thinks'' he's a Magnificent Bastard) that is why this trope isn't subjective. Or at least, no more than other tropes.
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Austin: While I apperciate detail being added to an entry I previously wrote, I felt I had to remove this from Slade.
"After skillfully manipulating people for his big plan, [[VillainBall he always does something at the very end that screws it up]]"
Because Slade ''doesn't'' skillfully manipulate people. His plans only work because the characters are too emotionally stupid to see past his taunts. With Robin, he didn't have to do much. Robin just went totally insane because Slade kept getting away, with minor taunting about Robin being ineffective. And to say that him telling Robin he enjoyed taunting his friends was a screw up is inaccurate, because he did that ''before'' Robin decided to forego all logic and attack him anyway. With Terra, Slade basically said "They'll turn on you. You can't trust them." He didn't even try to handwave away the fact that he was a villain. His taunting of Raven was more skillful, but can we praise a character who only becomes cool AFTER getting a crapload of superpowers? I don't think so.
Stranger: But Slade IS a Manipulative Bastard. That's a huge point of his character. You basically just described the times he's ''emotionally'' manipulated others. The fact that he's a Smug Snake rather than a Magnificent Bastard is because as the main description says "his ego overtakes his awesome" and he never has a Plan B. Oh, and you say that Slade only became cool when he got superpowers? Multiple viewers and the staff of the show would disagree with you there.
Austin: Except he manipulates people ''badly''. It's bad writing that makes the characters stupid enough to listen to him. Like it's said somewhere else on the wiki in comparing Slade in Brother Blood, "Brother Blood tries this (manipulation) on Cyborg, but it doesn't work because Cyborg is marginally sane." And when I say he was only cool, I mean it was the only time he got decent snarks that weren't convoluted, and when he was able to hold his own against all of the titans, and when he actually took initiative and attacked Trigon, as opposed to running away like a pansy like what he does with the Titans.
Stranger: It's pretty clear that you're not a fan of the show since you don't think very highly of the characters and writing. Anyway, it may not be that the characters are stupid as it is that they're young and insecure teenagers that Slade knows he can manipulate. Since he aint a Magnificent Bastard, he probably wouldn't get too far trying to manipulate people his own size and age.
Austin: That's fair. But also, I'm not a fan of the show ''because'' I think the writing's bad. It doesn't invalidate my points. If it did, every negative written example on this wiki would be removed.
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CharredKnight: Someone just put this on Cut List, but honestly since the guy appears to have never read the page I don't know why I should even bother defending it, but since I have to I will. SmugSnake is when someone thinks they're the MagnificentBastard but really isn't either due to a failure on the author, or on purpose. A good example is Umbridge who thinks she's some incredibly smart wizard but only does minor work for villains, or gets her ass kicked in some humorous way.
{{Someguy}}: Ah ok. The rather vague description made me think this was about the ''audience'' perception of the character rather than his role in the story.
How do you cancel a cutlist again?
WizardJoni: Agreed.
LooneyToons: No problem, I'll delist it. Cutmasters handle that sort of thing.
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CaptFamous: I have a proposed amendment to the definition. A SmugSnake is often found working in the shadows of a true MagnificentBastard as a henchman or lackey of sorts. The underling snake has two main variations: The treacherous sidekick with ill-fated dreams of overthrowing his underestimated boss (Starscream in Transformers: The Movie), or the leech who forgets just how strongly he leans on his master for power, and meets his end by overstepping his authority/abilities (Moebius in Legacy of Kain: Defiance).
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WillyFourEyes: Who keeps adding Edward Cullen to the SmugSnake page? Sure, he's not exactly a ''likable'' character, but this trope he ain't. Sorry to break it to you.
Later: It popped up ''again''?
Well, how DOESN'T he fit the trope? Is it just because he's not a villain?
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Is it just me or is there a general misunderstanding here that "Magnificent Bastard=good villain, Smug Snake=bad villain? They may not be Magnificent, but a Smug Snake is only a bad villain if the writer fails to make him a good one. While villains like Culter Becket, Dolores Umbridge, Zant, Slade, Admiral Zhao, Prince Phobos, Scar, etc, do indeed belong on this list, they are certainly NOT bad villains since invoking hatred in the characters and the audience seems to be their purpose. Villains like Orochimaru, Millions Knives, Jason Macendale/the Hobgoblin, and a majority of the video game villains listed are ones who probably would count as villain failures.
CharredKnight: I think we should get rid of all the MagnificentBastard done badly, and probably rewrite it to emphasis this.
Stranger: I'm not sure about the first part, since MagnificentBastard done badly is pretty much SmugSnake done badly too, since the writers fail to make a villain that makes an impact. The second part I agree with. A villain can be a SmugSnake and still make an impact BECAUSE the audience hates him/her so much.
WillyFourEyes: I gave it a shot. Should I add/take out any parts of it?
{{Earnest}}: Nice work!
Stranger: Edited it just a little bit. I felt the whole "Wannabe Magnificent Bastard" thing shouldn't be left out.
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KillerClowns: Regarding [[{{Starcraft}} Kerrigan]]: she's pretty goddamn smug, but if my memory serves me (it's been a while) she one decent cerebrate-free achievement. She manages to trick Raynor and the Protoss into dancing like her puppets and killing [[OnlySaneMan Aldaris]] for her. Granted, with the arguable exception of [[LoveMakesYouDumb Raynor]], this required [[WallBanger incredible stupidity on the part of the Protoss]], and [[StupidityIsTheOnlyOption any observant player smelled trouble coming a mile away]]. You can't call this a MagnificentBastard achievement due to its running on PlotInducedStupidity, but its worth mentioning. I think it was supposed to make her a MagnificentBastard... but [[TheWesley failed]]. Or [[TheyPlottedAPerfectlyGoodWaste it wasn't, and Blizzard succeeded]]. Or [[AuthorsSavingThrow maybe they'll just roll with what they've got]].
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WillyFourEyes: Filed down [[SuperRobotWarsOriginalGeneration OG!SuperRobotWars]]!Duminuss' entry. I can't vouch for or against the accuracy of the examples of her failed plots listed within (having only played the first ''OG'' game), but leaving them on the page makes the entry way too long.
[[folder:Examples tucked away neatly into a folder for now]]
* The OG version of [[SuperRobotWars Duminuss]] tries to be a [[MagnificentBastard Magnificent Bitch]], but fails so horribly in every attempt. Let us take notice to what she planned... and how she failed:
** '''Plan 1''': Get the Time Flow Engine to the OG Universe. This one succeeds, and it temporarily separates Raul and Fiona... until '''Plan 3''' (see below) comes in, and the combination of Over Gate Engine and Time Flow Engine brought Fiona back by a struck of luck, thus empowering the EFA even further.
** '''Plan 2''': Reprogrammed Lamia to kill the EFA's morale. Her justification is that since they failed to save her in the first place was such a big blow to their morale, failing to save her the second time, and making it look like they really have no choice will completely kill it. It would've succeeded... if only Duminuss killed Axel on spot when she was doing '''Plan 1'''. The result was, Axel came BackFromTheDead and successfully saved Lamia.
** '''Plan 3''': Take over the Over Gate Engine, and Compatible Kaiser, while making use of the Emi Armor she found. She uses the G Thunder Gate, with a BrainwashedAndCrazy Shouko (as Figher Emi) to take the Kaiser's Engine. Too bad she underestimates Kouta's brotherly love and hot blood towards his sister, and he snaps her out of it.
** '''Plan 4''': Find her master, through all that plans above, and get to know her purpose of life. That does succeed... in a YouSuck way, since Dark Brain instantly gives a "NO U" on her plea of help and killed her on spot, deeming her as a falure. If all those plans were actually masterminded by Dark Brain, he'd be a MagnificentBastard. But since he didn't... well he's not.
** Also, TreacherousAdvisor Mizal Touval displays the traits of a SmugSnake in both his game of origin and in OG. From his plan to turn the rest of the Shura against Folka, or usurping the Shura King's power, all of them magnificently backfired at him, especially on the cases where he masterminded the death of Folka's AloofBigBrother Altis, this always result on Fernando (whom he turned BrainwashedAndCrazy) turning his back on him in either instantly snapping out of his brainwashed state (OG), or gets into an UnstoppableRage out of his brother's death and attacked Mizal instead (Compact 3). OG Gaiden seems to pit you again two {{Smug Snake}}s, since Mizal collaborated with Duminuss...
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MasterGhandalf- About Slade's inclusion here- I'd say he doesn't really qualify, as most Smug Snakes seem to incur real audience hatred in a similar manner to the CompleteMonster (though more for personality than specific actions), which Slade does not. Rather, on the Teen Titans fansites I frequent, he always seems right up there with Raven as one of the most popular characters! He's not a full-fledged MagnificentBastard, either, as he tends to let his sadism get the better of him at crucial moments and suffers from a case of EvilCannotComprehendGood, but I would argue that he is not a "true" Smug Snake. Like Long Feng, Nom Anor, and Saruman he seems to hover somewhere between the two tropes. Thoughts?
Stranger: Sure, he's not as Smug a Snake as Brother Blood or perhaps even the Brain, but he belongs here because for one, he's a smug villain who thinks he's in control of all situations but can't really see outside of his big plans (whereas a MagnificentBastard would consider all possibilities and formulate Plan Bs) And also, while we may love his as a villain, anyone who's not a MisaimedFandom would never remotely admire his cruely and actions aside from maybe in Season Four.
And we've gotta remember, a big difference between how much people will hate a SmugSnake and how much they'll hate a CompleteMonster is that if, if done right, the audience will enjoy hating the SmugSnake. With a CompleteMonster, it's just pure hate. And of course, with a MagnificentBastard, the audience will admire the villain despite how evil they may be; which is why that trope's title is made up of a compliment ("Magnificent") and an insult ("Bastard")
MasterGhandalf- Makes sense. The problem arose from me thinking of villains like Zhao and Umbridge when putting a face on this trope (Slade doesn't really belong with them) and villains like Palpatine or Azula for MagnificentBastard (he doesn't really belong with them either). It makes more sense that SmugSnake actually cover a wide spectrum of villains, including those like Slade who are would be Magnificent Bastards if only they hadn't overlooked that one (or a a couple) insignificant detail. I suppose Scar's inclusion should have tipped me off:)
MasterGhandalf - edited Slade's entry a bit to remove the bit about him losing to the Titans when he fights the whole team. That... doesn't really have anything to do with his being a SmugSnake, and more to do with the fact that he's one BadassNormal against a whole superpowered team. Besides, plenty of MagnificentBastards (Xanatos, Lex Luthor, Thrawn, etc.) are no match for their respective heroes in a one-on-one fair fight. Slade's here for his arrogance and VillainBall, not his combat skills.