[[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=gzfv6uj7&trope=ItWasHisSled From YKTTW]]
Could someone please change the title of the page back to "It Was His Sled" rather than "It W As His Sled"? I'm not sure how to change page titles.
{{Tanto}}: They're both the same. (Try ItWasHisSled, ItwAshIssLed, ITwasHissleD, ItWAsHisSled.) Also, new comments go on the bottom.
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zeroplusalpha: The truth about Ayu ''is'' pretty obvious (I'd say you could pretty much guess most of it by the end of the OP), but only if you were [[GenreSavvy familiar with]] [[{{Utsuge}} this kind of material]]. I haven't actually seen {{AIR}} (one of few, it would seem) but given that the name Misuzu is ''always'' mentioned in the same breath, I can't say I'm terribly shocked by the revelation.
And for something completely different: I noticed that somebody excised a large chunk from the main page, for slightly nebulous reasons (the editor asserts that s/he isn't part of the target demographic, but some of it "definitely has to go".) I'm all for judicious pruning of {{Natter}}, but the removal seems a little excessive and extends to examples that are, in my opinion, perfectly OK. However, it's not my intention to make mountains out of molehills, so I'll just throw that up in the air in the event that someone with more seniority and influence agrees that at least some of the changes should be restored.
TwinBird: "I'm not part of the target demographic for '''some''' of these (such as ''Riders to the Sea''), but '''others''' definitely need to go."
# ''RevengeOfTheSith'' was a ForegoneConclusion.
# The ending of the ''Matrix'' trilogy hasn't really seen any kind of PopculturalOsmosis, and as the {{Natter}} admitted, wasn't really meant to come as a surprise.
# What did you expect to happen in a film called "The Search For Spock"?
# A story about a MessianicArchetype following part of the MessianicArchetype (and no, it isn't the TropeMaker) isn't really a "twist." There are probably larger, but more obscure ones to be found.
# "Crossroads of Twilight" apparently has nothing to do with the trope, and is an acknowledged TakeThat. This is a Bad Thing.
zeroplusalpha: Fair enough.
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{{Jisu}}: Is Ayu's fate really that obvious? When Kanon 2006 was airing this past while, I knew so many people that didn't want it spoiled for them. If you want to put a KeyVisualArts game on there, say that [[{{AIR}} Misuzu dies]].
DarkSasami: I'm a big anime fan, and I didn't know the last four of those examples. Especially with something like ''{{Simoun}}'' -- which came out what, last year? -- it's way too soon for this phenomenon to have happened.
{{Jisu}}: So it's agreed.
Riff: I kind of feel like a lot of these don't apply... I wasn't aware of how ''The Perfect Storm'' or ''The Village'' ended, and I hadn't even heard of ''Who Killed Roger Ackroyd?'' If we're not careful, this is just gonna turn into "spoil the end of some random movie", and that misses the point.
Jordan: I didn't know about the Perfect Storm one either. I'm sorry about spoiling Roger Ackroyd- I was inspired by the inclusion of the other famous Christie twist ending, Murder on the Orient Express- what I've found, is that when people will review the book, they have a really hard time telling the reader there is a twist without giving the twist away and the novel is fairly famous for having a twist. Also, it was simply thought it was funny to answer the novel's question.
AndrewLeprich: I got to agree with Riff- most of these don't belong here. The point of this trope is that everyone knows these twists because of [[PopCulturalOsmosis word of mouth]], even if they actually haven't seen the work. Everyone and their mother knows that Aeris dies and that Darth Vader is Luke Skywalker's father, but I would say the surprise endings of ''The Villiage'', ''The Maltese Falcon'', ''Unbreakable'', ''TwinPeaks'', and ''The Perfect Storm'' are by no means common knowledge. We've branched out too much. It's become "name a surprise plot point". Hell, I've never even heard of ''Brazil'', ''Murder on the Orient Express'', and ''ThePrisoner''. My two cents.
{{Ununnilium}}: Yeah. Pulling it out here (warning of the spoilers):
[[folder:cut non-examples]]
** ''Unbreakable'': Sam Jackson is a bad, bad guy.
** ''The Village'': It isn't really the 18th century.
*''The Perfect Storm'': [[DownerEnding Everybody dies at the end.]]
*''FinalFantasyX'': Sin [[LukeIAmYourFather is actually Tidus' father]]. And Tidus [[TomatoInTheMirror doesn't actually exist.]]
* ''The Maltese Falcon'': It's a worthless chunk of lead.
* ''Who Killed Roger Ackroyd?'': The narrator did.
* ''TwinPeaks'': It was the TomatoInTheMirror.
*''ThePrisoner'': The Prisoner escapes. Oh wait. Maybe [[MindScrew he didn't.]]
* ''MagicKnightRayearth'': They kill the princess.
* ''NeonGenesisEvangelion'': Never mind the hope in the beginning, it's just [[MindScrew messed up]].
* ''[[RevolutionaryGirlUtena The Adolescence of Utena]] movie'': Two words: Lesbian Luge
[[/folder]]
AndrewLeprich: Thanks, {{Ununnilium}}, I'd say it's pretty much perfect now.
{{Ununnilium}}: Personally, I'm still wavering on ''Fight Club'' and possibly ''The Usual Suspects''.
AndrewLeprich: In terms of popularity, I'd say ''Fight Club'' is okay, but I'm on the fence with ''The Usual Suspects''. Then again, personally I only saw these two films within the past two years, so I can imagine many others who have yet to see them. You might be right. Also, I've never even heard of ''Murder on the Orient Express'', but, then again, I'm not much of a reader. And, this is probably going to sound really pathetic, but this spoiled ''Citizen Kane'' for me... >_>
{{Grev}}: Now, the big question: Does this make TomatoSurprise obsolete?
DarkSasami: No, they're not the same thing at all. TomatoSurprise is a twist ending in a show. ItWasHisSled is a cultural phenomenon where just about everybody knows, oh yeah, that movie, that's the one where it turns out that [insert Tomato Surprise X].
On the previous subject, I think that ''within certain subcultures or demographics'', certain spoilers are near-universally known. The ''FinalFantasyX'' one is very well known in gaming circles, for example, especially due to the internet. I think it's rather like the lost phenomenon of local hits on the radio. A given song could be a huge hit in one or two cities, but never be heard by most of the rest of the nation--but to people in those cities, it feels just like a universal pop culture thing until you refer to it elsewhere and get blank stares.
We're still not dealing with universal knowledge, as AndrewLeprich has shown. (Geez, where've you ''been?'') It just so happens that the ones we're showcasing are known by the "darn near everybody" demographic.
SevenSeals: ''Murder on the Orient Express'' and ''The Usual Suspects'' definitely belong. I don't know how you'd back that up with statistics, and there will always be people who've never heard of the spoiler (bless them) but when the spoiler is a phenomenon in itself (that is, things get mentioned as having a "Usual Suspects ending" (and I wrote this before finding out ''we'' have TheUsualSuspectsEnding), it probably belongs here.
{{Ununnilium}}: Also: Oh, so ''that'''s what "About the only thing we won't spoil is ''The Mousetrap''" means!
AndrewLeprich: Actually, we agree, DarkSasami. I never meant to imply that this should be limited to universal knowledge, but re-reading my last post that's probably how I came off. Of course I'm not arguing that. Not everyone can know that Aeris dies when the large majority of people have no clue what ''FinalFantasy'' is. I completely agree with the subculture/demographics thing. Since every person who is remotely interested in [=J[=RPGs=]=] knows the twists in ''FinalFantasyX'', I'd say it's in, but, personally, I think it's a little too much of a stretch to include things like ''ThePerfectStorm'' and ''Brazil''. Addnedum: Edited the entry to reflect this.
{{Ununnilium}}: Okay, I've never even ''heard'' of ''Angelheart''.
MorganWick: I dispute all the movie examples except ''Empire'', ''Fight Club'', ''Soylent Green'', ''Planet of the Apes'', ''Old Yeller'', and ''Maltese Falcon'', and I might be persuaded to keep ''Psycho'' and ''Sixth Sense''. I don't get what ''High Plains Drifter'' is trying to say, and I second Unu on ''Angelheart''.
SevenSeals: ''Sixth Sense'' absolutely has to stay. It's practically the canonical modern example of a well-known spoiler. Ditto for ''The Usual Suspects''. Your objection does raise a point.
The are two problems with this entry: first, there's always some subjectivity as some people will not have heard of a movie or its spoiler (so the question then becomes how widespread something really is) and second, what spoilers are particularly well-known will shift over time, so it'll be a mix of the real classics (''Citizen Kane'') and recent flicks (''The Usual Suspects'') still recent in memory.
Things sufficiently obscure of ''themselves'', never mind the spoiler (thirded on ''Angelheart'') don't belong here, since it's highly unlikely that people will have heard of the spoiler without having heard of the thing itself (which is the heart of the entry).
AndrewLeprich: I would also have to agree that we're falling back into old habits. Angelheart?
LooneyToons: Late 1980s film with Robert [=deNiro=] and Mickey Rourke; more or less the swan song for Lisa Bonet of ''TheCosbyShow'', who did a nude scene in it. Unnecessarily full of heavy-handed symbolism and MeaningfulNames, including one particularly obnoxious example (Louis Cyphere = Lou Cyphere = Lucifer). Has some clever dialogue, and is apparently a passable occult thriller, but those aren't my bag so I have a different opinion than most who've seen it.
SusanDavis: I recently saw ''FightClub'', and the twist was a genuine twist for me, not something that "everybody knew." I'd suggest that that's still sufficiently well-hidden to not be suitable here, especially given that the bit that people who haven't seen the movie generally know is the "First rule of Fight Club" speech, not the twist.
SusanDavis: ...and am I the only one who thinks they should have called it ''Fight Club for Men''? ("I'm not just the president... I'm your subconscious.")
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{{Tanto}}: Deleted the MetalGearSolid 2 example because, well, it's not a spoiler. If it's directly mentioned in reviews, it's not a spoiler. If it happens an hour into the game, it's not a spoiler. It was a surprise prior to the game's release, yes, because Kojima deliberately deceived the fans and media, but once the game was actually out it's just so much backstory.
I'm also conflicted about the KnightsOfTheOldRepublic and Diablo examples, since they hardly seem like common knowledge spoilers, but I'll leave 'em in for now.
SevenSeals: I also don't believe in the KOTOR spoiler. What demographic are we talking about, here? StarWars-based [=CRPG=] players? StarWars-based game players? StarWars fans? [=CRPG=] players? Gamers in general? The more narrow the "everybody knows this one" demographic is, the less interesting it is to put here.
If you want to put an entry here, ask yourself this question: of all the people who have never seen/heard/played something personally, how many have heard of it? And of ''those'' people, how many know the twist ending despite never having experienced it personally? The first question would need to pass with "more than one person", the second with "damn near everyone". '''Fans don't count''', they're in the know by definition.
As for ''Diablo'': I've heard of it, I've even played it, but I've never completed it, and I have no idea what the ending is. Seriously, how many people, even ''Diablo'' players, care about the story of ''Diablo''? I don't see how you could call this well-known.
Sikon: When I added KOTOR, I was thinking Star Wars fans, even those who never played the game.
SusanDavis: The only video game examples I had heard of through PopCulturalOsmosis were the ''FFVII'' and ''Metroid'' twists, FWIW.
Kinitawowi: Just to beat a deceased equine, I've been playing computer games ever since computer games existed, and I didn't know about the FFVII one until I started playing it early last year (I never had a Playstation) and one of my mates was ''desperately'' trying to spoil me. "Haveyougottothegoodbityet? Haveyougottothegoodbityet? Haveyougottothereallyfamousbityet? HaveyougottothebitthatmadeeverybodygoWhatTheFuckyet? NO I FUCKING HAVEN'T! I'LL FIND OUT WHEN I GET THERE!" I eventually had to spoil myself just to shut him up.
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{{Seth}}: For the sake of continuity i say we remove the mousetrap spoiler. I mean it is on the main page that we wont spoil it.
SevenSeals: Eh, have you read the entry? There ''is'' no spoiler there. That's why it's listed as an exception.
{{Seth}}: Oh, i skipped over it because i didn't want to be spoiled (Heh)
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SusanDavis: Removed "''The Passion of Christ'': It'd be interesting to hear if anyone actually was surprised in the first place" on the grounds that if no one was surprised, it wasn't a TwistEnding, let alone one given away by PopCulturalOsmosis.
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{{Ununnilium}}: Because of the above discussion, taking out:
* As is Clint Eastwood in ''High Plains Drifter''.
* ''Angelheart'': Harry Angel is Johnny Favourite.
* ''KnightsOfTheOldRepublic'': The player character is Darth Revan with amnesia.
* ''{{Diablo}}'': You make yourself the new host body for Diablo.
Also, I was wavering on ''Fight Club'' already, and then SusanDavis didn't know... I'm thinking of taking it out, too.
AndrewLeprich: Well, it's probably not on the level of ''The Sixth Sense'' or ''Titantic'', but I would keep it in personally. Then again, I am biased because I've already seen it. I'm still slightly annoyed by being spoiled for ''The Maltese Falcon'', but I'm probably the exception with not having seen/read it, not the trend.
SevenSeals: If it makes you feel better, you're not alone. I haven't ever seen/read it either. OTOH, I already knew the spoiler before this page, because it comes up a lot as a famous MacGuffin, too.
In an ironic twist, I saw ''Citizen Kane'' without knowing the spoiler, something I'd imagine is pretty hard to do.
{{Seth}}: I haven't seen Kane and wasn't spoiled... well until i read the title of this trope.
MorganWick: AndrewLeprich actually thinks more people ''have'' seen ''The Maltese Falcon''? What circles do ''you'' travel in? I doubt there's ''any'' movie more people have seen than haven't, even if you restrict it to the United States - certainly movies that are that old would ''not'' qualify.
{{Seth}}: There is a definite statute of limitations on spoilers
CortJstr: I'm tempted to put up an image of [http://feeds.wired.com/~r/TableOfMalcontents/~3/118758065/spoilt_tshirt_a.html this shirt]
AndrewLeprich: Morgan, of course not. I meant within the right subculture, i.e. movie buffs. My "exception and not the trend" comment was referring to, say, the people participating in this discussion. Of course I wasn't referring to society at large. I went over that already with DarkSasami, so I thought it went without saying.
Anyway, would the plot twist in ''Batman Begins'' count? It's a safe bet that nearly every Batman fan has seen it by now. On the other hand, the movie is only two years old. Addendum; added in the original Batman, to me that's a given.
{{Ununnilium}}: Definitely not for ''Batman Begins'', and IMHO, ''Batman'' doesn't belong in there either.
AndrewLeprich: I agree with Begins, it's too new. As for the original, well, I can see where you're coming from, simply because the twist probably isn't as well-known as most of the others on the list. I would say, however, that nearly every Batman fan has seen the original by now, and the twist is universally known in Batman fan circles. This raises the question of what exactly do we mean when we talk about target demographics/subcultures. Like, for Batman, what? Batman fans? 18-35 year old males? Hardcore movie fans? This entire trope is kinda messy, IMV. Anyway, I'll leave in Batman for now until we get more opinions, but I have no problem with taking it out. But, personally, I think ''Batman'' belongs on here before ''Soylet Green'' and ''The Maltese Falcon''.
AndrewLeprich: I just thought of something. Why aren't we using spoiler tags for the examples?! Yes, I realize that that would completely go against what the trope is trying to say, but, because this trope is very much subjective and YMMV, I wouldn't see the harm. We don't have to bicker on this discussion page about every single movie added to the list. Of course, we still have to avoid going overboard and begin just naming plot twists, but that goes without saying.
{{Ununnilium}}: Because that's the whole point, that these are The Things You Don't Need To Add Spoilers For. As you said, it goes completely against what the trope is trying to say. That is, in fact, why we ''are'' bickering; because each individual example is important.
{{Solandra}}: Would the twist in ''The Third Man'' count? They even show Orson Welles' face on the DVD cover!
WhogusTheWhatsler: Well, when you think about it, that just tells the uninformed viewer that Orson Welles is in the movie. They might figure out, from Welles' absence early on and all the references to the late Harry Lime, that the dead guy is in fact going to turn up perfectly alive, but then again they might not. That being said, it ''is'' a really famous twist anyway.
SusanDavis: Would the similar twist in ''Laura'' count?
MorganWick: Even if people would be spoiled, the fact that there are spoilers should be obvious from the topic.
{{Ununnilium}}: IMHO, ''The Third Man'' counts, but ''Laura'' doesn't. I think the rule is that it should be something that's well-known enough ''by itself'', or was at one point, that PopculturalOsmosis did its work.
Later: Based on the above rule, taking ''Laura'' out:
*''Laura'': Neither is Gene Tierney.
And I really think ''Batman'' should be taken out. We're talking the general public here, after all, or at least the section of the general public that's likely to watch a ''Batman'' movie (which includes not just preexisting Bat-fans, but action-movie fans in general). I doubt many of them could tell you who shot Bruce's parents in the 1989 film.
AndrewLeprich: Eh, Batman is one of the highest-grossing movies of all time. According to [=IMDB=] it's number #38 USA and #80 Worldwide, and that's without inflation. It broke the opening weekend record when it was released. I mean, far more people have seen ''Batman'' than ''Soylent Green'' and ''The Third Man''. I mean, really, is there anyone with an interest in superhero/action films that hasn't seen Batman yet? I'm exaggerating of course, obviously not everybody (or even most) of any given group has seen any given movie, but that goes without saying and applies to any movie.
However, if you consider the criteria for this trope to be the popularity of the twist itself (and not the actual movie), I agree that ''Batman'' doesn't quite belong here, as ''The Joker killed Bruce's parents'' isn't exactly on par with ''LukeIAmYourFather'' and ''Tyler Durden Isn't Real''. But in terms of the popularity of the movie, I contend that Batman belongs on here before most of the current examples.
In any case, I have no beef if you take it out, it really doesn't matter to me.
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{{Duckluck}}: This trope is turning into one of those hellish Wikipedia notability battlegrounds, and it's also going to ruin the endings of a lot of movies for people (I personally only knew about half). I'd suggest leaving off the spoilers themselves and just having the names of the movies. After all, if they're really common knowledge, people know them anyway. If someone has to ask, it's probably a bad example.
AndrewLeprich: As I said before, I don't see the harm in using spoiler tags, since this is so subjective and YMMV, not to mention possibly regional-sensitive. It does go against what the entry is saying, but in my view it doesn't detract from the entry's message, especially if we put a disclaimer with our reasoning. This is a great trope, but we shouldn't have to bicker about every example added to the list. And count me in as someone who has had several works spoiled for him by this.
{{Ununnilium}}: I'd rather not use spoiler tags. But just having the name of the work might actually be a good idea. For one thing, it'd provide a rather easy way to tell wether or not something "counts". (If you have a bunch of people coming in here and saying, "...so what happens in ''Movie'' that I'm supposed to know?", it doesn't count.)
Of course, on the other hand, for something like ''TheStrangeCaseOfDoctorJekyllAndMrHyde'', someone might not even realize the spoiler is a spoiler. Hmmmmm. What d'you guys think?
MorganWick: I objected to ''The Usual Suspects'' because not only had I never heard of it, it barely made sense to me. I barely even know the plot (and I don't think I even know that), let alone who all the characters are. Granted, you don't need to understand the plot or any of the characters of ''Citizen Kane'' other than Kane himself to understand that ItWasHisSled...
AndrewLeprich: You've never heard of ''The Usual Suspects''? What planet do you live on? Just kidding, I haven't heard of many of these works myself. I would completely support just having the name of the work, but I don't think such a major change should be made until a clear consensus is formed. What do you guys think?
AndrewLeprich: I'd just like to bump this to the top of AllRecentChanges, since this was never really resolved. {{Ununnilium}}, I'd like to know your reasoning for being against spoiler tags so, it's worked out quite well for entries such as TreacherousAdvisor. But if not that, we should at least start just having the name of the work, in my view.
MorganWick: I meant the ''twist,'' not the movie itself.
{{Ununnilium}}: Because this entry is different. The whole ''point'' is that these spoilers aren't spoilers anymore. Putting them in spoiler tags says "No, wait, they really are spoilers, and this page is totally pointless".
AndrewLeprich: But just having the name of the work goes against the entry as well, if not more so, because you're not even ''naming'' the spoilers.
{{Ununnilium}}: Well, in that case, the idea is that the spoiler is so well-known that just the name of the entry should evoke it. However, really, I'd rather just leave it as it is.
AndrewLeprich: Fine with me. ^_^
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{{Jisu}}: Defending my own examples here, but who doesn't know the end of ''Eva'' anymore?
{{Ununnilium}}: Lots of people. It took me years of being steeped in anime fandom before I was spoiled to it.
{{Lale}}: Even those of us who have seen ''End of Eva'' don't know how it ended. That's one MindScrew plot you ''can't'' spoil if you had the rest of your life to explain it.
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{{Tanto}}: I might question the inclusion of ''all'' the Potter endings. I don't read the books or participate in the fandom, but even I had heard about the Snape/Dumbledore thing. The others are all Greek to me. Again, I wonder what the "everybody knows this" audience is here. Potter fans? Fantasy fans?
{{Ununnilium}}: I agree. Taking out:
* All of the impressive [[TwistEnding Twist Endings]] in ''HarryPotter'':
** ''The Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone'': Quirrel is the villain, not Snape.
** ''The Chamber of Secrets'': Voldemort is the Heir of Slytherin.
** ''The Prisoner of Azkaban'': Scabbers is Peter Pettigrew.
** ''The Goblet of Fire'': Alastor Moody is Barty Crouch, Jr.
** ''The Order of the Phoenix'': Sirius dies.
{{Duckluck}}: I think the first book/movie's twist is at least as well known as Snape killing Dumbledore, if only because everyone knows Snape sticks around (how else could he kill Dumbledore?).
{{Ununnilium}}: Good point, but IMHO, who it actually ''was'' isn't as well-known.
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{{Ununnilium}}: Took out:
* TheSimpsons: Maggie shot Mr Burns
...because the episode itself isn't that well-known, and the ending less so.
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LooneyToons: Because I want to note this somewhere, and the main entry doesn't seem to be the right place... When ''HarryPotter and the Half-Blood Prince'' came out, there were several cases where customers waiting on line outside bookstores to get their copies were victims of "drive-by spoilings" -- teenagers who shouted out "Snape kills Dumbledore!" as they rode past the lines.
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DarkSasami: Took out ''SuzumiyaHaruhiNoYuutsu'' because jeez louise, the show is STILL RUNNING! And I didn't know that little tidbit, TYVM. Haruhi is on my list of shows to get to, but I haven't gotten there yet. And it's hardly a common part of pop culture!
{{Jisu}}: Although I didn't add the item, I feel compelled to apologize, because I didn't know that anybody didn't know the identities of Yuki, Mikuru, Itsuki and Haruhi yet, and would have disbelieved anyone that called 'spoiler!' on it.
MorganWick: (stares googly-eyed and thinks, "are you living in Japan?") I've only heard of the show through this site.
DarkSasami: Took Haruhi out again.
{{Smokie}}: Really? I didn't know it's possible to know the show, but not knowing Haruhi is god. Wow. How the hell is it possible to not get that fact spoilered?
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RobinGoodfellow: As has been said, just about everything on this page is a potential spoiler for somebody. More than half the current examples I either didn't know, or wouldn't have had I not seen the movie (and in a couple of cases would have ''really'' pissed me off to encounter cold like this -- and I've just had ''Half Blood Prince'' ruined, thank you). It's ''very'' risky making assumptions about what is or is not common knowledge; just because you and the people you associate with know about it doesn't mean it's really entered the public consciousness; it's the difference between "Everybody knows that," and "I know that, so everybody else should too." This trope should be limited to those examples which are ''really'' established (like ''Kane''), and I think there actually aren't that many that qualify. The only other effective solution seems to be to just have the title, but not the details. I strongly vote for making such a change.
TwinBird: Hmm...maybe. I knew nearly everything on there, but for a few, I was mad when they were spoiled in the first place. Let's say, the most hard-and-fast: ''Empire Strikes Back'', ''Soylent Green'', ''Old Yeller'', ''Metroid'' (only due to all the sequels), ''Jekyll and Hyde'', ''Sailor Moon'' (again only due to the sequels). ''Crying Game'' and ''Waiting for Godot'' seem borderline, but I'm not sure...
DarkSasami: ''Waiting for Godot'' may be borderline. I don't know that it's something that matters to anybody -- it's not like there's really a plot to spoil.
''The Crying Game,'' however, has been the second poster child for this trope for ''years''. It's a staple of talk show and sitcom comedic reference. It's almost always referred to as "that chick in The Crying Game." As in "...next you'll be telling me that chick in The Crying Game [[spoiler:is a dude!]]"
I'll say this: these things need time to mature. Why don't we put up a blanket ban on anything created this millennium?
RobinGoodfellow: I second that. I agree about ''Godot'' -- that he never shows up is central to the (lack of) point, and anyway it doesn't actually "spoil" anything to know that. And ''Crying Game'' is pretty well established. Not so sure about ''Fight Club''. Also, I don't think it's a problem if the ''work'' isn't well-known; I know none of the anime examples, but then I wouldn't be likely to, and I'll accept that ''fans'' would consider the twists well-known.
Meanwhile, I took out ''Half Blood Prince'' -- even the descriptive comment acknowledged it's not actually universal knowledge, fer cryin' out loud!
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TwinBird: I've taken off Titanic, not because I think anyone doesn't know, but because it wasn't really a spoiler in the first place. As a matter of history within even the American SmallReferencePools, absolutely ''everyone'' knew, walking in, that the ship was going to sink, and the opening scenes make it pretty clear that Leo DiCaprio is going to die in the flashback.
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{{Ununnilium}}: Taking out:
*''Batman'' (1989 film): The Joker killed Bruce's parents.
* ''Waiting for Godot'': Godot never does arrive.
...due to above discussion.
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{{Tanto}}: This page is starting to get...problematic. I don't think there's any way to make it work for everyone, or even nearly everyone, and due to the nature of the topic it might be doing more harm than good if that's the case.
{{Solandra}}: That's because no matter how famous a twist ending is, there'll ''always'' be at least one person who won't know and will become pissed when someone spoils it for them. Remember the RuleOfCautiousEditingJudgment! (with an 0.9% bonus for entries that ''demand'' subjectiveness)
TwinBird: Here's the thing, though: pretty much any reference to Soylent Green will mention the twist ending, not as such, but as the most memorable image, a very spoilerish horse's head. The same with Citizen Kane, Jeckyll & Hyde, The Crying Game, Old Yeller, Murder on the Orient Express, and The Scarlet Pimpernel. (Honestly, you could probably put NGE back up for this reason.) Contrast with a film only famous for ''having'' a twist, like Usual Suspects or The Mousetrap ([[spoiler:I almost posted who it here, but my better judgment took hold at the last second.]]). The Empire Strikes Back is slightly different in that the twist isn't immediately linked with the film the way as Citizen Kane and "Rosebud," but rather has become a meme of its own, gaining recognition separate from the film. The same with Planet of the Apes, the relevant Twilight Zone episodes, and Final Fantasy VII. Finally, there are those in series that went on long enough afterwards that anyone who's heard of the series knows the twist, and might not even be aware it was ever a secret. This includes Ocarina of Time, Metroid, Dallas, Sailor Moon, and Yu-Gi-Oh. So that leaves...Usual Suspects, Fight Club (to those who didn't watch Rosie in the Oprah-clone years), Psycho, The Maltese Falcon, The Third Man, and The Sixth Sense.
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RobinGoodfellow: I wonder if "I am your father" even counts as a twist any more, given the existence of the "prequels." Since they are based entirely on the build-up to Anakin becoming Vader, there is no surprise later on. Of course, this points out how problematic the whole prequel thing is: how will your children watch these movies? Will they go I through VI? If so, they won't get any impact at all from "I am your father," nor "I have a sister." "There is another" in V will also presumably have no mystery value. Ben's outright lies to Luke in IV will be jarring and somewhat inexplicable ("Your father wanted you to have this when you were old enough" ''still'' doesn't reconcile). Nor will they see what the big deal is when Vader first appears at the end of 3. But this is totally off the point by now, so I'll stop.
{{Ununnilium}}: Personally, I grew up knowing Vader was his father; I didn't even realize it was originally a shocking twist.
RobinGoodfellow: You better believe it. The revelation generated a lot of heavy debate. My friends and I weren't the only ones spending a lot of discussion on what the implications were, what Luke would end up doing, whether Vader was even telling the truth, and so forth. That's a pleasure you missed out on; I'm sad for you, really.
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{{arromdee}}: Contributing late to an early discussion: I'm new to Harry Potter and just recently saw the movies (no books here). I was unaware of all the spoilers listed above except for Snape killing Dumbledore.
{{Ununnilium}}: Took out the spoiler tags for that one. By definition, no spoiler tags on this page. Either we should have it or we shouldn't, but no awkward halfway-there bits.
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{{Tanto}}: ''MetalGearSolid 2'' is ''not'' well-known enough to be an example.
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{{Tanto}}: I know more than your average bear about anime, but I've barely even ''heard'' of ''{{SHUFFLE}}''. People really need to stop abusing this page. Just because everyone in your particular fandom knows about it doesn't mean it belongs here...
{{Ununnilium}}: Agreed. Cutting it:
* ''{{SHUFFLE}}!'': Kaede [[{{yandere}} isn't as sane as she looks]].
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TwinBird: I don't really understand why NeonGenesisEvangelion was cut...I mean, the way people talk about it, you'd think the entire series was the last three episodes and the films.
CharredKnight: Generally because it would take to long to explain what actually happened. Which leaves people to post stupid crap like "Everyone dies" (I just removed that one) which no matter how you slice is not how it ended. How many people returned depends on if you're an optimist (most people returned) or a pessimist (most people didn't).
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{{Sikon}}: Hotaru was ''not'' the Messiah of Silence. Perhaps I should clarify this.
There are two Messiahs, both of whom can use the Holy Grail. The "good" Messiah can save the world, while the "bad" Messiah, the Messiah of Silence, can destroy it by bringing about the Silence.
It is revealed that the good Messiah is Sailor Moon (it's not stated outright, but it's ''bloody obvious'' by the end of the season). The Outer Senshi mistakenly believe that Sailor Saturn is the bad Messiah, while the ''real'' Messiah of Silence is Mistress 9, the alien entity that possesses Hotaru's body.
So, Hotaru is the same person as Sailor Saturn, but Mistress 9, the Messiah of Silence, is a different person who shares Hotaru's body. In the end, Hotaru's real self destroys Mistress 9, allowing herself to awaken as Saturn and sacrifice herself to save the world.
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{{Tanto}}: Fuck you, {{Bob}}.
Also, ''DeathNote'' is not well-known enough yet for this.
{{Bob}}: I didn't think it was bad enough to warrant a "Fuck you". I honestly think my edits were an improvement to the article, and not just for the [[RuleOfFunny humor]] of it.
I agree with you on the {{Death Note}} example not being famous enough though.
{{Tanto}}: Not only was it not funny, it goes against the entire spirit of the article -- as you'd know if you read the discussion, where we hashed the whole thing out a long time ago. And it's a pain in the ass to fix.
You don't like spoilers -- we get it. That doesn't give you the right to impose your view of them on the whole wiki, especially an entry like this one that's ''about'' spoilers. I direct you to the SpoilerPolicy.
{{Bob}}: Hmm, the {{Spoiler Policy}} has been updated since the last time I read it. Okay, I won't do something like this again. I apologize. Still, a "Fuck you" might be considered a little [[SeriousBusiness overreacting]].
{{Tanto}}: Eh, that's borderline vandalism, and you can't speak against that kind of thing in strong enough terms. It might be an overreaction, but stuff like that really pushes my buttons.
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{{Tanto}}: Deleted ''High Plains Drifter'' and ''The Wickerman'' because they're not examples, the ''Deathly Hollows'' spoiler because [[JustifyingEdit it has no value]] in terms of this entry and is just going to piss people off, and the Messiah of Silence bit on ''SailorMoon'' since it is both not an example and evidently under some dispute, as per the above discussion.
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{{Jisu}}: TheBible example is a common joke parodying this concept. If anyone thought it was supposed to be a real spoiler, you don't know your religious history, and you have no sense of humour. Removing. (Yes! I finally get to take something off instead of the other way around!)
{{HeartBurn Kid}}: Put it back. This is not Wikipedia; we dig our jokes around here (how else do you think Darth Vader ended up on the list for ScaryBlackMan?)
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* ''FireEmblem: Genealogy of the Holy War'': Sigurd dies (likely so well known because it was central to one of the best remembered elements of the game)
{{Tanto}}: Not even close. This is a game that was never released in America, in a series that was virtually unknown outside of Japan until 2002, five years after it came out, and which hasn't been referenced since. There are probably ''FireEmblem'' fans who don't know this one.
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{{Blork}}: A suggestion on how to avoid these problems of whether something counts or not. Perhaps we could require each example to state a case where the spoiler has been treated as common knowledge (not including elsewhere in the same series). So for example we have that ''FamilyGuy'' quote for ''CitizenKane'' and the ''{{Simpsons}}'' scene that casually spoils ''The Empire Strikes Back''. Trope names that include spoilers (PlanetOfTheApesEnding, SamusIsAGirl, JekyllAndHyde) would probably count too.
{{Bob}}: I'm not sure about some the ''CowboyBebop'' example, I had never heard anything about it until I saw it here ([[TvtropesWillRuinYourLife thanks for that, by the way]]). It seems to me that is a ItWasHisSled only in some circles and that the general population is blissfully unaware of it, which would mean that it isn't a true ItWasHisSled. What do the rest of you guys think?
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{{Tanto}}: Say it with me now: ''KnightsOfTheOldRepublic'' is not an example.
{{Bob}}: And neither is ''DeathNote''.
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* ''PhoenixWrightAceAttorney'': Most players seem to know exactly who the real culprits are before they're even encountered in-game.
{{Tanto}}: That's different; this trope deals with spoilers that are known before you even start to view. Really really obvious internal spoilers are something else; DevilInPlainSight usually.
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{{Shale}}: Yanked the "Dumbledore is gay" example from HarryPotter because it's not actually a spoiler, since it's not a plot point.
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{{Shazzbaa}}: I'm sort of surprised this isn't here... but in {{Portal}}, thanks to the virus that is the internet, everyone knows that [[spoiler: the cake is a lie.]] I haven't played the game; I don't even know what it means -- but I know that [[spoiler: the cake is a lie,]] because no one really bothers to treat it like a spoiler. It's everywhere in the geekier circles of the internet, and even though it's absurdly recent, almost everyone around me can get the jokes whether they've played the game or not just because of PopculturalOsmosis. Of course, I'm going to an Art College and majoring in comic books, so I don't know if that's just because I hang out in really geeky circles -- so I propose it here instead of adding in the entry. But when even my mom started making jokes about how [[spoiler: the cake is a lie]], I knew it must've gone pretty far.
{{Tanto}}: There's definitely some merit to the "you hang out in geeky circles". (Most of us do, I'd guess.) It's hard to get the proper perspective on this kind of thing when you're surrounded by people who share your tastes, which is something I wish people would think about more often before editing this entry.
As for ''{{Portal}}'', I'm still just really uneasy about putting something here from a six-month-old video game. That's two strikes right there. It just doesn't seem to me that it's really assimilated beyond the geek world. I've deleted it a couple times, but maybe I'm just being too stubborn about it.
{{Shazzbaa}}: The main thing that has me wanting to put it up is simply the fact that it isn't ''treated'' like a spoiler. There's a significant set of words in {{Bioshock}}, too (for example), but as far as I've seen that was kept far more secret by gamers who didn't want to ruin the twists for others. However, it's hard to be someone who plays games, or even someone who's friends with people who play games, and not know that [[spoiler: the cake is a lie]] when it's been leaked all over the internet and made the subject of various reference jokes, webcomics, and witty limericks. Most places I've seen don't hide it or say "warning: spoiler!" before saying it. It's just treated as a well-used reference, not as a hidden surprise.
Admittedly, if you don't travel in gaming circles AT ALL, you may have missed it... but one last thought: if that's so, will you really be so upset to bump into it here, having missed all the other references to it on the internet? I mean, people who don't travel in gaming circles might also not know that Aeris dies because ''they don't know or care who Aeris is.'' But that's still ItWasHisSled, because among the people it matters to, it's already well-known.
But all that said, I can understand waiting until it's the game is at least a bit older, so you guys' call.
{{Tanto}}: Eh, I'll leave it in. If someone else has an objection, ''they'' can take it out.
Faris from ''FinalFantasyV'' is not well-known enough to be an example, though. On this, I will not budge.
{{Inyssius}}: One thing. Regarding {{Portal}}: the cake [[spoiler: is NOT a lie]]. Ha! Bet you'd know that if you'd played the game!
{{Inyssius}} again: ... and since I had to tell you that, the actual cake-related twist is apparently ''not'' his sled. Yanked.
{{Shazzbaa}}: Eh... I still disagree. First off, the fact that [[spoiler: the cake shows up before the end credits]] doesn't necessarily mean [[spoiler: that it isn't a lie -- GLaDOS promised you cake which you never got]]. As an obsessed Portal fangirl now that I've played it, I've seen extreme disagreement among fans and gamers over whether or not the thing you bring up is actually significant to the plot of the game, so I wouldn't consider that the twist. The twist, I would argue, that everyone knows is[[spoiler:, for one, the phrase "the cake is a lie," which changes the way the very first piece of the game is viewed, where GLaDOS keeps promising you cake; and for two, the fact that GLaDOS is a big fat liar who doesn't give you any cake at all]]. The fact of the matter is that the phrase [[spoiler:"The Cake Is A Lie"]] was originally a surprise worthy of those spoiler tags I keep sticking it in, but now it is casually added to t-shirts without any fear of spoiling it for anyone.
I'll respect the opinion of the wiki and I don't want to have an edit war, but I will submit that the response "Everyone knows that, sure, but then there's another twist later, so this isn't an example!" doesn't mean that it wasn't his sled.
: Portal should definitely be in here. "The cake is a lie" has become a meme of truly epic proportions, in fact about the only other examples I can think of offhand with the same sort of recognition are "I am your father" and the trope namer. Like Shazzbaa said, this particular twist shows up on shirts and gets dropped in casual conversation all the time...*everyone* knows the cake is a lie, even if they've not heard of Portal.
TTBF: Even if it is a meme of truly epic proportions, the fact remains that the cake ISN'T a lie. GLaDOS says "there will be cake", and then at the end there is cake. "The cake is a lie" was scrawled on a wall by a crazed test subject.
{{shishikyuu}} The meme is so incredibly well known that I'm absolutely sure there are loads of people who have heard it lots of times and start playing portal without knowing what it is related to. (I only made the connection when reading the scribbles on the wall.)
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DonQuigleone: I'm surprised no one has mentioned Romeo And Juliet, it must be so obvious that noone thought of it, I knew the ending at the age of ''five''. (ask me not how blame PopculturalOsmosis) It's by no means obvious (within the confines of the play) that they both die, but everyone knows it, and the manner of there death too.
{{DomaDoma}}: Actually, the prologue goes:
-->From forth the fatal loins of these two foes
-->A pair of star-cross'd lovers take their life;
-->Whole misadventured piteous overthrows
-->Do with their death bury their parents' strife.
But since everyone knows the precise details, yeah, toss it in anyway.
DonQuigleone: Damn, I forgot that, it could be the prologue was added later, but probably not, however the manner in which they die (which is a twist) is completely known, SoYeah
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{{Tanto}}: Good god, man. Just say "no" to nitpicking. You don't need a whole fucking (spoilered!) line to voice your "[[{{Natter}} objection]]" to a blanket statement about ''300''. It doesn't matter one bit, and it ruins the reading of the entry.
Also, the ''PennyArcade'' quote is funny, but it seems a little too long to be a page quote.
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SoloJones I agree with {{Bob}} on the Cowboy Bebop spoiler, I just started watching the series.
I was wondering about the Beauty and the Beast spoiler though, does that really count as a spoiler? I mean the same thing happened in the fairy tale forever ago, should we also have spoilers saying "Cinderella fits the shoe" "Snow White isn't really dead" I don't see it as a "twist" ending or a spoiler.
And I like the Penny Arcade quote, I think it sums up this trope nicely.
{{Bob}}: I'll spoiler the ''CowboyBebop'' example. Since spoiler marks shouldn't be necessary for a ItWasHisSled, I'm not sure if it qualify as the trope nowadays.
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{{DomaDoma}}: [={{Fly}}=], just sit on your hands for a week and a half. By then, that countdown will have reached zero and that text message will be well and truly sent.
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{{EllieNSian}}: If you need to put spoiler tags in (re:Cowboy Bebop) it shouldn't be on here. As two big fans of anime we have no idea what the ending is and would not like it spoiled for us.
{{Bob}}: I'm cutting it then. I guess that it ''used'' to be a ItWasHisSled, but that it isn't widespread enough to qualify. Saved for posterity here.
* ''CowboyBebop'': [[spoiler:Spike dies]] in the final episode of the series.
** Shinichiro Watanabe acually said that he could neither confirm nor deny [[spoiler:Spike's death]].
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Krine: It's funny; I saw Citizen Kane knowing exactly what the spoiler was, so to find out that [[spoiler: nobody actually ''finds out'' that it was his sled]] came off as a twist ending to me, [[spoiler: with equal parts "downer ending" thrown in for good measure when they burn it unwittingly]]. Should this be noted somewhere, somehow, in the main entry?
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CharredKnight: Deleted these two for not being TwistEndings, and everyone knowing going in that they where going to die. I also rewrote the Spider-man entry to have the actual twist ending listed.
* ''ComicBooks/{{Superman}}'' dies. [[BackFromTheDead He gets better]].
** He also is a strange visitor from another world, and there are [[LastOfHisKind no more like him]]. Really.
* [[ComicBooks/{{X-Men}} Jean Grey]] dies. [[BackFromTheDead She gets better]]. [[JeanGreyEscalation Lather, rinse, repeat]].
CharredKnight: Deleted this one because its an origin tale, and not even an ending, let alone Twist Ending.
* [[Comicbooks/{{Batman}} Bruce Wayne's]] parents are killed in a mugging. They don't get better.
CharredKnight: Deleted this one because ITS A FUCKING CATCHPHRASE! A well known Catchphrase but not a twist, not an ending, and not an important plotpoint. This is not something everyone knows about this, its about a well known twist ending.
* You wouldn't like [[Comicbook/{{IncredibleHulk}} Bruce Banner]] when he's angry.
{{Tanto}}: Re-deleted them. They don't count.
Also:
* ''FirstEncounterAssaultRecon'': Alma is your mother.
''Not even fucking close.'' Jesus, are people so ensconsed in their insular little worlds that they can't realize that is is not common knowledge? This game's very ''existence'' isn't common knowledge.
Later: Cleared out a bunch of {{natter}} as well.
Still later: Took out ''R&J''; that's ForegoneConclusion. Also, no:
* ''RatchetAndClank'': Qwark did it. ''Again.''
Still still later:
* ''Titanic'': The boat sinks. (Commence trout slapping.)
Slapping ahoy: Not only is it really a ForegoneConclusion, it's already up there in the main body.
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TwinBird: You know, the number of times it's been added (I think I even might have added it once, before TheGreatCrash, but I can't remember whether I added it or just tried to make a case here), it might be time to admit that ''NeonGenesisEvangelion'' is common knowledge. It's ''definitely'' common knowledge in Japan, doubly so in anime circles worldwide, and you'll get a nice InternetBackdraft if you bring it up in essentially any forum on any topic. It's aired on Adult Swim multiple times. A live-action prequel was made by a major studio in Germany. For God's sake, a ''QuestionableContent'' strip is entitled "Neon Genesis Pintsizelion" (granted, it's not exactly a SmallReferencePools strip, but most of the obscurity is limited to music trivia).
Actually, I'm going to take this one more step. According to IMDB, American films or shows that reference or spoof ''NeonGenesisEvangelion'':
*''Antitrust''
*''One Hour Photo''
*''Michael Clayton''
*''InvaderZim''
{{Tanto}}: People who have ''seen'' ''{{Evangelion}}'' can't tell you what it's about. It's more famous for being confusing than it is for anything that actually happens, IMO.
Not to get all WikipediaUpdater on you, but I'd have to see some evidence for those (without even going into the difference between "reference or spoof" and "ruin the ending").
TwinBird: Um...''like I said'', my source is IMDB. And no, they don't spoil the ending, but they kind of ruin your idea that only a few otaku have heard of the show.
Also, do you really think "everyone" knows the ending to Ender's Game? Or The Third Man, or even Citizen Kane?
We essentially spoil it at the very beginning of the series page. You do have a valid objection in that you can't really describe the ending, but I'd say "Shinji loses his mind" is enough.
CharredKnight: Those are series and movies that reference Evangelion. For example in One Hour Photo, a toy of Eva 01 (I believe) is given to one of te kids. The problem with Eva is that the ending is to complicated for this. Referencing Citizen Kane is relativly easy, Tiny Toons, and Simpsons did entire episodes spoofing the movie.
The question is that if we do count It Was His Sled for the Japanese than Evangelion would count (but only in Japan)
''Also, do you really think "everyone" knows the ending to Ender's Game? Or The Third Man, or even Citizen Kane?''
{{Tanto}}: More people than ''{{Evangelion}}'', that's for sure. Anime is (still, and despite the demographics of this wiki) a niche market. Literature and films aren't.
SeanTucker: I'll explain the ending that falls into this trope right now: Rei clones appear out of nowhere, hug people, and turn them into Tang. Asuka and Shinji are the last two people on Earth.
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{{Tanto}}: '''''UNCLE BEN IS A FUCKING ORIGIN STORY.''''' It doesn't fucking count if it happens in the first episode/chapter/issue/ten minutes. Jesus, get it through your heads, people.
CharredKnight: Spider-man was conceived as a one issue story that Stan Lee wanted to do but was never given the go ahead, so he included it in a comic book series last issue. It's not Spider-man's fault that it became popular so Marvel made a series about it.
{{Tanto}}: That doesn't change the fact that it is one, however. It doesn't count.
CharredKnight: So if someone made Citizen Kane 2, where Kane returns as a Zombie, Citizen Kane wouldn't count?
{{Tanto}}: That's different. Spider-Man has been running continuously for fifty years with the Uncle Ben thing as his defining moment. It's not a plot point or a TwistEnding; it's what makes his character what it is. I think it's safe to say that Uncle Ben is officially {{backstory}} at this point. You can't know about Spider-Man without knowing about Uncle Ben.
CharredKnight: The point was that when it was conceived the burgalar being Uncle Ben's killer was a twist ending. The end of the story is Peter unmasking the killer only to find it be the man he let go because he was selfish.
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* ''DeathNote'' : [[spoiler: L dies. Light dies. Actually, pretty much every main character dies at some point.]]
{{Tanto}}: Recent, niche, and already deleted before -- that's the trifecta of "not an example".
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{{Bob}}: I'm going to argue that the ending of ''TheUsualSuspects'' doesn't belong here. I don't think the actual TwistEnding is a ItWasHisSled, because people just know that there is a [[TheUsualSuspectsEnding confusing]] TwistEnding but they don't know ''what'' the twist is. At least that's the impression I've gotten from asking people about it.
* ''TheUsualSuspects'': [[spoiler:Kevin Spacey]] is Keyser Söze.
Example moved here (and spoiler-marked) for the length of discussion.
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{{trimeta}}: Is the "There's a skating bear in the background" on the main page supposed to be a reference to that classic video of guys in white shirts passing basketballs (while you're supposed to ignore the guys in black shirts also passing basketballs), where a guy in a gorilla suit walks past and waves at the camera? If not, maybe this example should be included.
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{{Tanto}}: Pulled the "Other" category because it's amazingly stupid and, lacking context, doesn't make a whole hell of a lot of sense. (Did someone put a ''fanfiction'' example on there? Because that might be the most egregious abuse of this page I've ever seen.)
[[foldercontrol]]
[[folder: Other ]]
* The surgeon was a woman.
** As was the barber.
* You're not supposed to do any of the questions.
** Just sign your name.
** Alternately, just do questions 3, 5, 7, 9, and 13.
*** And then just sign your name.
**** Don't let us ''catch'' you cheating. [[NotCheatingUnlessYouGetCaught Catch]]. [[IfYouKnowWhatIMean Nudge Nudge Wink Wink]].
* Only one person was going to St. Ives.
* To get to the other side.
* You're supposed to be glad they didn't say banana.
* The ''other'' coin is a nickel.
* It's a polar bear.
* The operator hears the hunter shoot the injured hunter to make sure he's dead.
* You will die. (eventually)
* You should always [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Hall_problem switch your choice]].
* You don't bury survivors.
* "[[KnightsAndKnaves What would the other guard say is through this door?]]"
* The murder weapon was an ''icicle''.
** or the cops ate it.
* You're the bus driver, remember?
* To see time fly.
* Roosters can't lay eggs.
** One half of a rabbit can't eat.
* Did the landlord ''really'' put the last guest in a room?
* Look closely at the second set of cards. It's not just the card you chose that was removed.
* All the married people stayed on.
* [[TimeTravel They're all the same guy.]]
* There's a moonwalking bear in the background.
* She reasoned that he would attend her sister's funeral as well.
* [[{{Doom}} John]] [[SoBadItsHorrible IS]] [[FanFiction the]] [[TomatoSurprise Demons]].
TransientWikian: Restored the "Other" category in full knowledge that it doesn't fit precisely into the letter of this page, but in the belief that it captures the spirit of this page. These are the twists, punchlines, and solutions to all manner of jokes and brainteasers that everyone has heard at least a few of. I humbly request that we give it the benefit of the doubt,
{{Tanto}}: Yeah, but unlike listing the name of a work, these don't have any context whatsoever, so unless you've heard the joke or been presented the brain-teaser, they don't make any damn sense. And there's no criteria to speak of -- they get more and more obscure as you go down the list, with people happily beating the joke into the ground.
TransientWikian: I'm not going to restore it again because that smacks of an edit war, but with your level of dedication to the importance of a community effort I'm surprised at you. I humbly suggest that you may be letting your personal sense of what makes "good content" get in the way of the natural growth of a wiki. Comments like "amazingly stupid" and "doesn't make a hell of a lot of sense" and "doesn't make any damn sense" are not conducive to the inclusive, informal that the rules are intended to foster.
CharredKnight: I am going to agree with Tanto on this one, in the past we have gotten rid of bad jokes if they get too popular. See the massive deletions that Discontinuity received. The problem with the jokes is that their is no context. They expect people to have heard of them, and when they don't you don't understand whats going on. Frankly I have not heard of most of those jokes. All it is are just people listing punchlines to jokes they have heard. The only joke that I know everyone has heard of is "Why did the Chicken cross the road"
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Nybbler: I guess the problem is that things fall OUT of popular culture as much as they fall in them. I didn't know Rosebud was his sled when I saw CitizenKane in 1991 or thereabouts, and I suspect most people my age wouldn't know (my wife didn't either, until she saw it). ThePrisoner I did know, though, and I think it's still well known among SF fans. It's not like knowing that one really spoils anything. The twist in MurderOnTheOrientExpress is definitely going to be known among mystery fans still, TenLittleIndians and TheMurderOfRogerAckroyd perhaps less so. The ending of SixthSense is well-known now, but will it be in another generation? Knowledge of Luke Skywalker's parentage isn't going away anytime soon. The twist in AngelHeart and JacobsLadder was well known for a while, but neither film has remained popular enough to stick in the collective memory.
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{{Shazzbaa}}: Should I add new thoughts on old topics down here, or to the topic they pertain to? I noticed someone yoinked the {{Portal}} example and I disagree with the reasoning, but wanted the thoughts of others so as to avoid some kind of EditWar. I added a reply but wasn't sure if people will notice something buried deep in the middle of the discussion page. For future reference, should I post down here or just leave it in its proper section?
Sohvan: I re-added the {{Portal}} example to the article, I hope no one minds. The game has been out for a year now, and many of the examples in this article are already more obscure. For example "Cake is a lie" gives more than 30 times the amount of results on google compared to "Aeris/Aerith dies"
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*Adam Dodd won ''SurvivalOfTheFittest'' V1. [[PremiumIrritation This troper]] knew this before reading any of the archives of the first game. The fact that he's a ''participant'' in V3 makes it all the more glaringly obvious.
{{Tanto}}: Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and call bullshit here. I've never even ''heard'' of this before. Anyone?
PremiumIrritation: That would be my bad. I didn't quite read the trope description properly.
CharredKnight: That's the problem for a lot of people. Some people really only read the first line of the thing, and then post something that isn't an example. Hell I am surprised Discontinuity hasn't reverted to a complete mess.
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Violet: How hard would it be to add "Jesus Dies" somewhere on the picture?
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Where exactly does the trope name come from?
{{Tanto}}: RTFA. (It's mentioned in the page quote, the body of the text, ''and'' the examples.)
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Mullon: While it looks like it has been mentioned already above, I would like to contest Murder on the Orient Express. Me and my friend read it a couple of years ago, and if we had read that spoiler we would have been pissed. Maybe the ending is know among mystery enthusiasts, but not the general public.
{{Bob}}: I agree. Moving it here for discussion.
* ''Murder on the Orient Express'': [[spoiler:''Everybody'' is in on the murder, except for the detectives]].
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ManWithoutABody: Can we please rename this trope? There are a surprising number of people who haven't seen the movie. Why can't we call it "Famous Twist Ending" or something?
{{Tanto}}: Because that name blows and demonstrates a complete lack of creativity or style? And because your argument runs counter to what this trope is even about?
{{Bob}}: I agree with ManWithoutABody. I didn't think much of it until I accidentally spoiled it for my brother. Who had bought the DVD recently. Man, I felt like a jerk over that. That name does lack creativity and style.
ManWithoutABody: I watched that movie with my flatmates a few weeks ago, and two of them didn't know what Rosebud was. I'm pretty sure my sister-in-law still doesn't, either.
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{{Bob}}: On behalf of me never even having ''heard'' of this book, I'm going to cut it. Feel free call me an illiterate schmuck if you disagree.
* The titular question of ''The Lady or The Tiger?'', is [[NoEnding up to the reader]].
Also, I've never heard of this movie, except that I've seen it in several trope examples. ''All'' of them with spoilermarks.
* ''TheCabinetOfDrCaligari'': [[spoiler:Francis is insane, and he made the whole thing up.]]
** ManWithoutABody: It's only one of the most influential movies ever.
And I don't this one famous enough. Sure, maybe among {{Nerd}}s and {{Geek}}s, but we've got to think of the "normals" as well.
*''MontyPythonAndTheHolyGrail'': They all get arrested by 20th century police, and never find the grail.
{{Tanto}}: "The Lady or the Tiger?" isn't a book; it's a short story. It's taught in virtually every middle and high school English class in America (because it's simplistic and demonstrates the perverse nature of authors, but nevermind).
{{Bob}}: Okay, I guess that answers that. The question is, do people outside of the states know of it? Because this is "ItWasHisSled", not "ItWasHisSled [[/folder]]
[[folder: [[Yu-Gi-Oh The Abridged Series IN ]]
[[WearingAFlagOnYourHead AMERICA]]]]".
{{Tanto}}: Well, how do you want to play that, really? Yes, the wiki is international... but I imagine that there are many places where Vader being Luke's father isn't common knowledge, either, and I don't think anyone's contesting that as an example. I hate to bring up ''{{Portal}}'' again, but it's virtually unknown outside the dorky internet circles. You're either going to have to say "Well, okay, this isn't well-known outside the area or demographic where it's been generally circulated, but it's still an example", or you have to say "The trope is for things that ''everyone everywhere'' knows", in which case you're going to have to do a slash-and-burn on the example list, because there aren't that many examples by that definition.
The first option has a ''ton'' of examples; the second has maybe a half-dozen, I think. I don't have an answer or really an opinion. It's just a decision that has to be made about the nature of the page.
{{Bob}}: That is true. Another problem is the time issue Nybbler outlined above. I think we're simply going to have to do this the way we're doing it now: cut [[DeathNote examples that doesn't fit]], move border-line cases here for discussion, and above all else: keep it civil.
TwinBird: Frankly, it seems hypocritical of you, Tanto, not to care about examples being spoiled to foreigners with the number of anime (Eva...Eva...Eva...) you've cut on the grounds that "most Americans haven't seen them." Especially when the article body takes care to specify "in the target demographic." Also, ''The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari'' is an [[GenreTurningPoint enormously influential film]], that essentially single-handedly established the "condensed novel acted out" format we've come to take for granted. Anyone who's at all interested in early silent film will know it backwards and forwards.
In addition, maybe anything else Monty Python is "nerds and geeks" fodder, but for God's sake, ''Holy Grail''? (Although I'd say it doesn't go here because it's not really a twist, as much as a continuation of the absurdity that permeates the film, and, indeed, all their work.)
{{Tanto}}: Yes, that would be hypocritical, had I actually done any such thing. I was not the first one to delete Eva; it was agreed that it didn't belong, and I've been keeping it off ever since then. (Plus, I reiterate: People know that it's epically mind-screwy, but the actual events are not so famous. Some people who have ''seen'' it can't tell you what happens.) Other than that? How many anime have really famous plot twists, ''really''? I've been deleting ''DeathNote'' because it's only a couple of years old. The others, I think, are mostly "I know about this; and so should everyone else!" type things, hardly material for this page. Some tropers have made it a practice to rush to this page every time something new and interesting happens -- as someone said up the page, the text message will get there eventually, really.
ItWasHisSled only happens if you let it. It is ''not'' inevitable.
(As for my provincial perspective, well, I don't know any other way to be. I only have the American experience to draw from. I have to take other people's word for it that, say, "The Lady or the Tiger?" isn't famous enough internationally to go here.)
{{Bob}}: I cut "The Lady or the Tiger?" assuming that it was a work known internationally, but if it's limited to a specific area, and if the ending is well known within that area, then I'm willing to leave the matter in the hands of someone personally familiar with work in question. Feel free to put it back if you feel that it belongs here.
Also, does the ''EndersGame'' example really qualify as a "twist"? It isn't that difficult to see it coming.
{{Rothul}} Perhaps for a regular reader of sci-fi, but I know it blew my (admittedly young) mind when I first read it, and the same is true with all I reccomended it to. For all its inroads, Sci-Fi is still a relatively niche market, and I don't feel comfortable assuming the PopculturalOsmosis has happened, when I can name a dozen people I've reccomended the book to, and DIDN'T see it coming.
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CleverPun: I don't really think FightClub should be on here. I didn't see the movie until just this year, and nothing I'd seen before gave any hint about it. It's ending hasn't [[PopCulturalOsmosis osmosed]], if you will. It's fairly recent, so that shouldn't be surprising. I won't remove the example yet, as I want to see if anyone else agrees with me.
EtherealMutation: Most people I've tried talking about the film with were either completely oblivious about it or already saw it. Nobody only knew exclusively about its plot points. I'd vote for removing it from the list.
{{Bob}}: I agree.
* ''FightClub'': Tyler Durden is the narrator's other personality.
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EtherealMutation: Think it might be worthwhile to include ''FromDuskTillDawn'' here? It was filmed with the explicit idea that the GenreShift towards a vampire film would actually take the audience offguard, but the marketing executives decided to hell with that and advertised it solely on the basis of it being a monster movie. In that sense, it was a pretty major spoiler that got leaked not through PopculturalOsmosis, but by the studio itself.
{{Bob}}: That would go under TrailersAlwaysSpoil and YouShouldKnowThisAlready. It's not famous enough for this.
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CharredKnight: You know how something isn't ItWasHisSled?
WHEN THEY GET IT WRONG! No Evangelion does not end with everyone except Shinji and Asuka turned to goo, Third Impace failed, and those who want to come back do. In other words everyone not suicidal
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Marikina: Does the first Friday the13th count?
{{Ununnilium}}: No, because hardly anyone knows about that.
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{{Blork}}: OK, I've never even heard of this one let alone knew the ending, and the spoiler tags kind of defeat the point of this whole page:
* ''Ethan Frome''. Mentioned because of its [[OlderThanRadio age]] and[[spoiler:the main characters attempt to kill themselves via [[IncrediblyLamePun Sledicide]].]]
Isn't there a PREVIEW function?
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{{Ununnilium}}:
* ''Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade'': He's named after the dog.
* [[TheDayTheEarthStoodStill Klaatu Barada Nikto.]]
** You missunderstand, Gort IS The Master
* ''AChristmasCarol'': Scrooge redeems himself. In fairness, this probably wasn't much of a surprise back then either.
* ''[[PrideAndPrejudice Pride and Prejudice]]'': Elizabeth and Mr. Darcy realize how foolish they've been to allow misconceptions to stand in the way of True Love, and get back together. Actually, this works well as a general spoiler for the entire output of Jane Austen.
* [[Comicbook/{{X-Men}} Dark Phonenix]] sacrifices herself before she kills anyone else. It turns out it wasn't really Jean.
** In an inversion of this, for those [[DidNotDoTheResearch who did not follow the comics]] since 1986, [[NeverLiveItDown she only came back that one time]].
***[[{{Hipployta}} This Troper]] begs to differ, since most people still think it was the real Jean Grey due to the 90's X-Men cartoon...AND about the coming back from the dead business[[spoiler: in the early 2000's Jean dies when Wolverine kills her so she doesn't have to suffer as their spaceship is headed into the sun due to "Not-Magneto" Xorn's set up on Grant Morrison's New X-Men run. That death releases the Phoenix Force and she recovers...only to die again shortly thereafter. The next issue deals with Jean being resurrected in the far future by Dark Beast/The virus. THEN her next resurrection was an ENTIRE mini-series so what on earth do you call the premise of Phoenix Endsong? She decides to go back to the White Hot Room previously mentioned and SEEN when she was resurrected by Dark Beast at the end of the New X-Men run]]. This will probably be edited.
Not A Twist.
* In ''OnHerMajestysSecretService'', JamesBond gets married and [[CartwrightCurse widowed within the span of ten minutes]].
I doubt most people are even aware that James Bond ''was'' married.
* In the second ''PinkPanther'' film ''A Shot in the Dark'', the shadowy figure stalking Inspector Clouseau and making several attempts on his life is Clouseau's own boss, Chief Inspector Dreyfus, who's gone AxCrazy over Clouseau's shenanigans. Also, the sinister Asian man attacking Clouseau in his apartment is Clouseau's own manservant, Cato, whom Clouseau has ordered to attack him to keep himself on his guard. People's familiarity of these twists has less to do with PopculturalOsmosis with the film itself and more to do with the fact that Dreyfus and Cato returned in the sequels, where these [[TwistEnding plot twists]] became [[RunningGag running gags.]] And, since ''A Shot in the Dark'' doesn't have "Pink Panther" in the title, people are much more likely to see the more titular sequels (''Return of the...,...Strikes Again, Revenge of the...'') before they happen to stumble across ''ASITD''.
* ''Around The World in 80 Days'': The travelers arrive in London seemingly too late to make the 80-day deadline. The next chapter is set in the Reform Club, the final destination for Phileas Fogg where the members await his return and he makes it just in time. It's explained the last chapter that Fogg forgot to account for crossing the International Date Line, thus actually arriving in London a day early and finding out just in time to make it to the club.
* Hal Jordan was possessed not crazy/evil. The yellow weakness is really a living creature made of fear trapped in the Central Power Battery.
Not ''nearly'' well-known enough.
Then again, you're not exactly meant to read The Bible as a dramatic work anyway...
** This troper disagrees. Quite a few biblical stories make more sense as a drama, and the theatre department at my college agrees.
*** So does this troper, and he's a devout Christian. Do you have any idea how much of the Bible was written as poetry? (hint: it's more than just the Psalms and Song of Solomon.)
* Even worse than "Jesus dies": a friend of this troper got shocked when he told Achilles died in ''Troy''... when the ''[[{{Homer}} Iliad]]'' is OlderThanDirt... and his death coined a [[AchillesHeel popular expression]].
** To your friend's credit, though, Achilles does not die in the Iliad, but instead shortly after the end of the book.
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I don't think Corpse Bride belongs on this page. The movie's both obscure and recent enough that plenty of people probably haven't seen it yet, not to mention that it's not exactly a popular and well-known twist ending.
*Corpse Bride: Lord Barkus murdered Emily. Not really that surprising, considering his shadow is shown in her backstory...
ConversationInTheMainPage.
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AirshipCanon: I'm pretty damn sure [[TalesOfSymphonia Mithos is Yggdrasill]] qualifies. And I KNOW I stuck that on here in the past. (Also-- it seems anything that pops up for Uncyclopedia's Spoiler warning also qualifies.)
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TwinBird: I added WarOfTheWorlds because it definitely seems to have been ''intended'' as a twist, and it's definitely well-known and frequently parodied, to the point that its absence makes me think it met with The Guardians' disapproval. Since it's not mentioned on this page, please tell me when you remove it, why does ''WarOfTheWorlds'' not fit?
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CharredKnight: My god the anime section had a lot of obscure series
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DasRach: Two things, one a cut and one an addition:
*I don't think "The Dark Tower" belongs here. First off, I've never seen the ending of the series discussed without spoiler tags. Second off, even most Stephen King fans haven't read that series--they stick to his horror stuff.
*Will I get flamed off the Internet if I add ''Rosemary's Baby''? Most of the movie and book try to give out the red herring that the cult is trying to do something horrible to her baby, and it's not until the end that you find out Satan is her baby daddy, but nowadays "Rosemary's Baby" is synonymous with "Antichrist."