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{{Ununnilium}}: Shinji isn't really an AntiHero, IMHO. It's not just a protagonist who isn't heroic, it's someone who does amoral stuff that you're still supposed to root for.

SeanTucker: I nuked him from the page of my own volition, but this reasoning is basically why I did it..

{{fleb}}: Except that's just wrong. See (random passer-by)'s note below. AntiHero ''is'' a protagonist who isn't heroic.
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SevenSeals: Zuko from ''AvatarTheLastAirbender'' would fit the bill perfectly... except he's not a protagonist. But it does show you that villains are a lot more interesting if they're not evil.

{{Seth}}: I would say Zuko is a protagonist and an antagonist. He gets enough screen time that during the episodes that feature him you are rooting for him (Save the avatar killing he does) for example his fights against his sister and Zuko alone he is very protagonist like. But in relation to the main story of aang and crew he is an antagonist. And oh my god i think ive gone cross eyed.

SevenSeals: Well, it ''also'' shows you that ''shows'' are a lot more interesting if the writers don't follow the usual dichotomies to a fault. I'm very much reminded of George R. R. Martin's novels, which do not have "good" and "evil" sides, just different people motivated by different interests. ''Avatar'' doesn't go quite that far (the heroes are quite heroic), but Zuko is a good example of a character who's interesting for more than just opposing the heroes.

{{Seth}}: Here's my pitch, i would peg Zuko as a TragicHero not an AntiHero. Anti hero's are good but tragic heroes can also be heroic/nobel/likeable people who serve as an antagonist. It fits, the enty says they can be antagonists and he seems to have the sort of tragic luck and circumstances that make the trope.

SevenSeals: I have to disagree here. A TragicHero starts off or develops as a bona fide hero but is destined to failure because of a fatal character flaw. Zuko wasn't and isn't a hero, and although he has plenty of flaws that prevent him from achieving his goals (arrogance and impatience being the most prominent) it's not his character flaws that make him tragic, but his history. If anything, the way he copes with his circumstances makes him admirable and easy to sympathize with: you wouldn't blame someone for just giving up after what Zuko's been through, but he perseveres, for better or (mostly) worse. Zuko is a perfect [[TheWoobie Woobie]] because, at the core, he's a good kid who's been dealt a bad hand, and his flaws are just a magnification of his immaturity. It's hard to dislike him for that.

As an aside, it's interesting just how ''often'' Zuko is mentioned on this wiki. We've now given him as an example of an EnsembleDarkhorse, an IneffectualLoner, an IneffectualSympatheticVillain and (on SaveTheVillain) an AntiHero. He fits some types better than others (Zuko's not much of an EnsembleDarkhorse, for example, because he's not ''unexpectedly'' interesting), but he does deserve mention everywhere.

{{Seth}}: I'm beginning to think that TheZuko should be an entry. An antagonist who has many heroic traits, you want to win but is doomed to loose ect. But its premature, he has 2 series to do a HeelFaceTurn yet.

Anime Addict: He's not a new trope, but he is complex enough, like most of the ''Avatar'' characters, to warrant his own page like the characters of ''Evangelion.''
(Notice how often he overlaps with Seto Kaiba?)

{{seth}}: I would again disagree that the others do (Didn't you used to post as wiki?) but Zuko could use it. Maybe just extended bio's and descriptions on the page themselves then.

FastEddie: Hook an entry for Zuko off of the main entry for Avatar. I don't see how he is the '''The''' of anything. If you cannot point to another example of him, he is just ... Zuko. Here. Fill this in: {{Zuko}}

{{Ununnilium}}: That should probably be PrinceZuko, just to avoid confusion.

(random passer-by): The literary use of the term "anti-hero" does indeed include protagonists who lack the usual heroic virtues, and a protagonist who is ineffectual and indecisive, though well-meaning, certainly qualifies. An antihero isn't necessarily a crazed nihilistic cutthroat who happens to prey on people worse than himself. An antihero can be a scared kid thrown into a situation that's beyond his control, too. Dirty Harry and Mad Max are anti-heroes, but so are Yossarian from Catch-22, Arthur Dent from the Hitchhiker's books, and Al Bundy.

Please see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-hero

The Tragic Hero, in their taxonomy (which seems to borrow tropes and themes from Greek tragedy, oddly enough), would be a sympathetic and perhaps slightly ineffectual protagonist, who possesses nobility of spirit and character flaws in equal measure. Tragic Heroes always die at the end, because it's their fate. It's a rule of Greek tragedy.

Also, I have a very minor quibble with the entry on Elric. It's been many years since I read the Elric books but I don't recall anything about him having to kill people with Stormbringer just in order to live. It made him stronger and healthier, and when for a time he did not carry Stormbringer at all, he became weak and sickly as he was prior to finding Stormbringer in the first place, but he didn't die from it.

{{Lale}}: Sorry, Seth, about adding another Avatar example, but hey, it's still a long way away from the volume of entries for BuffyTheVampireSlayer.

{{Seth}}: There is nothing wrong with Avatar examples. Just really bad ones that don't fit the series. Like the FirstGirlWins one or the 15 other examples that i wiped because it doesn't work. This one fits better than any of them.

(random visitor): This page really needs to be split and a new subtrope created to describe the sort of 'Disney Anti Hero' where the backstory vaguely alludes to a character being an Anti Hero and/or Badass but we never see him do anything beyond some pseudo-edgy dialog and acting a bit emo in the course of his heroic duties. Han Solo is an excellent example of this in action. The worst thing he does is shoot someone who's come to kill him, compare with say Marty in ''Grosse Pointe Blank'' who kills people for money, e.g. a classical Anti Hero. I don't have the energy to do a new page, though.

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Wouldn't it be interresting to have an index page for all AntiHero and AntiVillain related tropes?
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{{Lale}}: [[spoiler:Snape]] of HarryPotter is not an AntiHero. [[spoiler:He was a solid bad guy who had a HeelFaceTurn pre-series and became a solid good guy, who just happened to be a jerk.]] He's TheAtoner with angst.

{{Etrangere}}: [[spoiler:Even as a 'solid good guy' he does enough morally ambiguous things (such a getting innocent people killed as part of protecting his spy cover)]] that I would say he still counts as an AntiHero. He can be both an Atoner and an AntiHero.

{{Lale}}: True. [[spoiler: He never killed anyone innocent -- except Dumbledore, which was Dumbledore's idea -- although he did stoically watch Charity get killed at the start of Book 7, and no doubt that wasn't the first time.]] Logically or not, plenty of regular "heroes" undercover have done that.

{{Etrangere }}: [[spoiler: Snape claimed in the Half-Blood Prince that it was his information that got Emmeline Vance killed, too. Doesn't mean it was totally true, but it makes sense that, beyond watching innocent teachers and muggles getting killed, and beyond overseeing a school where the students get tortured as practical exercices, he also gave the occasionnal information that led to Very Bad Stuff, even in the unlikely presumption where he managed to avoid doing any such Very Bad Stuff himself. When 'regular hero' Harry see muggleborn people threatened to be deported in DH he soon act to save them (even if it throws his plan to hell). In the context of that kind of Young Adult literature, I think a character like Snape is firmly anti-heroic.]]
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SevenSeals: My clever skills of deduction eventually allowed me to conclude that the picture is that of one Lelouch, from ''CodeGeass''. I know I'm in the minority here when I say I know next to nothing about anime, but I still take offense at anyone's picture on such a fundamental article as this. I'm sure Lelouch is a very interesting character, but I doubt he's the archetypal anti-hero, if such a character can be said to exist at all, since there are so many varieties of anti-heroes. In short, what makes him so special, other than being popular? (This is a rhetorical question; I don't need a series recap.)

{{Citizen}}: By clicking on it? :P My thought process was something like: ''Oh hey, [[http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/cit_code_geass_lelouch.jpg here's a good picture]] of Lulu being ansty. Lulu is an antihero. AntiHero doesn't have a picture. Added.'' I don't think that the picture has to be some "archetypal" example to deserve posting anymore than titles here are required to be serious or whatnot. Now, if your beef is that it's an anime picture in a non-anime-specific page, er... you may have more of a point, and FastEddie's caught me on this before. I try, but sometimes things slip through the cracks... >_> If this page can have a quote from a [[TeenTitans cartoon]], though, why not a picture from an [[CodeGeass anime]]?

{{Lale}}: I think this page should use Han Solo!

{{Ununnilium}}: Yeah, I think it needs a more iconically AntiHero character. Lelouch doesn't even ''look'' like an AntiHero in that pic; he looks downright villainous.

{{Tanto}}: It's too bad movie clips take up too much space; Han shooting Greedo is a perfect illustration of the concept.

{{Citizen}}: Han shot first! ^^

ThatOther1Dude: Well, Han himself is more an embodiment of a LovableRogue, but a flash off him shooting first would work great.

Tricksterson: Han would make a good picture but if I was going to pick someone's pick for the iconic Anti Hero it would be Dirty Harry.
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fhan: I have some trouble seeing James Bond as Anti-Hero...

{{Lale}}: Say what?! Who added that? JamesBond may be a pompous jerk who can get away with anything, but that's part of being TheAce. He's as classic an action hero as they come; there's nothing "anti" about him. Cut.
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{{Citizen}}: Okay, that John Constantine spoiler block is "liek xbox hueg". It's turning into its own entry! Trimmed.

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AnticitizenTwo: the random passer by is correct, this article has become seriously misdirected. The kind of anti-hero currently being featured on this page is but one flavor of anti-hero. Just because Shinji is whiny and nobody likes him (which, incidentally is why he is whiny) doesn't mean he's not an antihero. Not all of them have to be Spike v1.0.

{{fleb}}: In that light, I just (re-)added him.
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Marikina: Does Batman warrant further inclusion into this trope? His standard heroic qualities seem to surpass his anti-heroic qualities, making him more of a Faux Anti Hero, if such a trope exists. "Knight's End" is a particularly noteworthy example, in where Catwoman notes that its Wayne's Batman's insistence to SaveTheVillain that distinguishes him from the more anti-heroic Jean Paul Valley's "Az-Bats", and ultimately proves who's the real Batman between the two.

{{Filby}}: I agree - he doesn't belong here. He's not an anti-hero, he's a hero who dresses like one.

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(another random passerby) I don't think many of the GTA protagonists are Anti-Heroes. They'd probably fall under {{Villain Protagonist}}s instead. The only one who is an Anti-Hero is CJ from San Andreas.
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ThatOther1Dude: SuzumiyaHaruhi isn't really an AntiHero as while she is a JerkWithAHeartOfGold, she's doesn't really pro-active enough to qualify as a "Hero", she's mostly just search for her own entertainment.

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{{fleb}}:Cut this to make room for the much shorter, punchier {{Foundation}} quote.
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->''"There is good, and there is evil. There are those who commit crimes and those who stop them. The two sides are opposite, as different as day and night, and the line between them is clear. Or at least, it's supposed to be..."''
%%
-->— '''Robin''', ''TeenTitans''

{{Citizen}}: Here's another one for the dustbin, then.
->''You both have childlike ideals. Believing in simplicity and shouldering the role of a criminal fro the sake of that ideal. Turning yourselves into the greatest evil to eliminate all the small evils in this world. You and Kiritsugu act like the saviors we call 'anti-heroes'.''
-->Kotomine, ''FateStayNight'' (game)
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VampireBuddha: Made a couple of cuts...
-->* Gokudo, probably most extreme form of antihero. He is almost evil guy forced to be hero when all he wants is money and nice girls. He is lacking any heroic features, and does not think much before leaving his friends in dangerous situations. He only fights dangerous enemies because his party forces him to do so, sometimes literally swinging him when he holds sword. His frien Rubet and demon prince (princess, and villain) also lack heroic traits but at least they have some other motives besides money. generally entire series lack permanent villains or heroes, because nearly everyone acts because of selfish reasons and are ready to switch sides anytime.

Because I have no idea who this Gokudo chap is. He may very well be an anti-hero, but if he is, the person who added that example should have the decency to say what show he's from.

From the ''Evangelion'' example:
-->*** They're both anti-heros, opposite sides of the coin. Shinji a nice (if kinda weak-willed) guy who can be pushed into doing a dangerous job because that's what people expect of him. Asuka's very strong-willed and quite obnoxious, but she'll volunteer for a suicide mission because it fits her self image (she is the best and the best should do the most important things). They're both anti-heros because their motives aren't heroic (they're both doing it for themselves, just for opposite reasons).

I folded some of the natter into the main bullet point; this paragraph is now unnecessary.
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-> For Bleach why is Ichigo listed as an anti-hero? In what way are his goals non-traditional? He's pretty much a typical hero, and his powers being evil, especially considering he didn't willing choose for them to come from an evil source, make him an anti-hero? It has always been a characters goals, action and personality which make them an anti-hero.

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Anyone who watches ''SonsOfAnarchy'' care to way in on whether Jax counts as anti-hero or anti-villain?
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EsteemedLeader: I'm going to cut ''JohnnytheHomicidalManiac'' because he's not a hero in any way shape or form, just a... well, a [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin homicidal maniac.]]
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Beforet: Does [[{{EndersGame}} Ender]] really count? I don't think killing two thugs in self-defense(and without knowing it) should qualify. And he didn't know that he was commiting genocide and even then he thought that they were a serious threat to the Earth. I won't delete, just bringing it up.