'''WARNING: GIANT, MIND-BENDING, FUN-RUINING [[color:red:''UNMARKED'']] SPOILERS AHEAD. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.'''

[[foldercontrol]]

[[folder:Lying Media]]
* If you get the ending where Scott gets killed by Norman, the news anchor says that Scott was 48 when he died. But Scott was born in 1967, and the year when he was killed was 2011, so wouldn't that make him around 44-45?
** As long as we're talking about inaccurate news reporting, if Scott is killed, his death is described as being "during a massive police operation", no matter who was (or wasn't) on the scene. Apparently Madison's not just an investigative reporter, but a one-woman police force!
*** It is called lying. Surprisingly, the press partake in misrepresenting facts all the time. What was the official press release by the police regarding the killer going to say? "We didn't do our jobs but a really nosy chick got lucky and figured everything out for us!"?
*** To be fair, the police had the place surrounded, so Shelby was killed ''during'' a police operation. Can you say {{Jedi Truth}}?
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Ethan's Blackouts]]
* So, why was Ethan having dreams of drowning children when he wasn't the killer? And what was going on in the park?
** [[http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6Jp2_QB3U08#t=72s This video]] explains some cut-out scenes from the game that explain it pretty well. Basically, Shelby and Ethan have a mental link. The reasons for the blackouts were cut because it made the story too complex and added a paranormal element that they didn't want. The blackouts left in the game are red herrings.
** Ethan's particular issues revolve around guilt over his son's death, and with the Origami killer on the news I guess that triggered hallucinatory nightmares revolving round the killer's MO. In any investigation into a high profile criminal the police are forced to deal with dozens of people claiming to be the killer, due to them being either delusional, wishing to be punished due to some deep seated feeling of guilt, well intentioned people suffering from blackouts or memory lapses, or simple attention whores. Ethan fits all the first three, and if Shawn wasn't kidnapped when he was would have likely turned himself in eventually. He's not the killer, that much is obvious. Ethan is mentally all over the place, scared of crowds and really suspicious looking, ironically he's being chased because he acts like a psychopath when the police should well know that's one flaw the Origami killer likely doesn't possess (since he takes the kids in broad daylight).
*** Indeed, Ethan has some interesting reactions to news reports about the killer before Shaun goes missing, it seems that the whole thing is hitting him hard even before he becomes a target
*** Ethan nearly shits himself if you look at the newspaper in Father and Son. There's also the possibility that due to his feelings of guilt he taught himself origami or went and bought some origami dogs while in a blackout to validate his feelings of guilt. That or Shelby was following him, noticed his recurring blackouts and took advantage of them to plant origami in his hand. As for the playground, it's possible that when Ethan had his blackout Shelby showed up in his cop uniform and offered to take Shaun home.
*** Ethan is an architect who already knows how to make detailed scale models (as seen in his work room in the prologue). He already has access to materials and the knowledge required to make things with paper. If his guilt and anxiety is already making him experience visions associated with the Origami killings, it is not too unlikely that his blackouts force him to unconsciously emulate the killer. Hence, the origami.
*** The guilt and media coverage may account for his blackouts, but it seems more likely that Scott is manipulating him as well. Primarily due to the fact that every time he blacks out, he ends up standing at the corner of Carnaby Square, just outside the construction site, with an origami dog in his hand. He would have no way of knowing the Origami Killer uses the site to commit his murders. Why Scott would willingly put Ethan at the scene of the crime is another question.
**** Some people have suggested that the trips to Carnaby specifically are caused by Ethan seeing the address of the letter he reads in 'Father and Son', which was sent from that district.
*** It's confirmed - Ethan knows how to do origami. In the Origami Blues and Helpless endings his room/cell is filled with origami figures.
**** At the beginning of the game, when he's waking up from his blackouts, Ethan comments that he doesn't know how to make origami and so doesn't know why he has the figure in his hands. It's likely that after the events that lead to the Origami Blues and Helpless endings, Ethan became obsessed with the Origami Killer and ended up learning how to make the figures.
**** I always thought these were delusions, and being hit by the truck was a metaphorical AdultFear. We know Ethan has emotional but neurological damage from the accident causing immense emotional damage, probably set up deliberately to avert InsaneEqualsViolent.
**** Some people have suggested that Ethan is being possessed by John Sheppard. It doesn't really fit with the realistic vibe, but it would at least make a little sense, especially with his ex-wife's story about how his eyes looked like he was a different person one night.
***** The above is actually closest to the explanation that was cut from the game. Originally, the presence of Shelby at the accident was supposed to give Ethan some type of psychic connection to the his mind so that whenever Shelby was kidnapping a victim, Ethan would have his blackouts and would access his mind. Thus, he would fold the origami as Scott did so as well. This also explains why Ethan always went to Carnaby Square. This was cut from the game however, because it was not in line with the game's focus on realism.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:The Ending - Gunpoint]]
* Why did Scott turn a gun on Ethan as he was trying to save Shaun?
** Probably to hide his identity. The poison Ethan drinks wasn't deadly and, to Scott, Ethan already proved his devotion for his son, so he had no use to him.
** Who knows? I can think of all sorts of reasons, but my "favourite" one is him wanting to prove that even a father willing to die for his son couldn't save him.
** It's a wee bit inconsistent, as if Ethan has arrived by himself, Scott doesn't go for his gun, he just talks. He even stands by and lets Ethan shoot him, if Ethan's so inclined.
*** Given what can be gleaned from the ending variation where Scott seems resigned when Ethan threatens him with a gun and offers to let Ethan shoot him, it is possible Scott simply cannot fathom the idea of living once his search is concluded. Finally finding what he is searching is simply that unfathomable to Scott after all these years. While he has spent years trying to be proven wrong and trying to find a father who is willing to do anything to save his son, once confronted with it, he simply cannot tolerate having his worldview be invalidated. He's already a murdering psychopath (albeit one with a warped set of morals), he probably just snapped at the realization that he has no purpose once Ethan completes all the trials.
*** While I personally think the different actions for different endings is more a case of SchrodingersGun, that there is a perfectly serviceable bit of FanWank, in my opinion. Ta!
**** Slow it down there. I guess this troper just saw it as a form of SanitySlippage and got carried away explaining it. Ta!
**** Sorry - I'm not sure if what I said came across clearly. Wasn't meant as a snark. What I meant was, while I genuinely think the answer is just the developers scripting different actions depending on the outcome, from an outside, Fanon sense, that explanation works perfectly and is what I'll probably use in my own mind.
** I think that he does it to validate his feelings. Though he was searching for a father like Ethan, deep down he didn't want to find one just so he wouldn't have to confront himself about his beliefs. He downright tells Madison he feels like a monster for what he's done in The Killer's Place.
** I saw it more as being because if even Ethan, the man who (depending on how it was played) would kill, die, self-mutilate and literally crawl through broken glass to save his son, couldn't save Shaun, then there was nothing that could have saved John, but if he could then his dad really was responsible and John's death could have been avoided. Of course, I've only just finished the game for the first time, so I haven't seen any other endings, yet.
** I saw it as Scott trying to justify his view of every father being terrible, and that he believed, in a Catch-22, to have his son, Ethan had to do things that would make him unfit to be a father to Shaun, endangering lives on the freeway, self-mutilating, risking his life in the factory, killing someone else, and (falsely) taking poison that he would know would kill him. Thus Scott would have a way to always make sure no father was good enough, and by killing him, make sure Ethan "sacrificed" himself to save Shaun.
** The problem with most of these explanations though is that if Shelby planned to shoot him all along, thus never intended for even a 'worthy' father to succeed, there was no reason to use a fake poison as opposed to a real one. The only thing that makes sense is if it was done spontaneously either out of poor planning (which doesn't fit all the planning done before hand) or SanitySlippage (which is rather anti climactic, why spend all that time building up the true killer and his underlying motive if they're just going to change into aimless fear and denial after).
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Evidence]]
* Why did the police not confiscate the boxes containing the cell phones and origami figures during the investigation?
** My guess was the parents didn't tell them about them, as it was the only connection/hope they had to saving their child. Yeah, bit of a stretch that over 3 years that not one parent hands over their box of goodies, but whaddyagonnado?
*** Additionally, with the fathers gone on the trials (besides Hassan), all that was left with the mothers was the vaguest of evidence like envelopes and phones. The fathers seems to have taken their boxes with them and most of them disappear, presumably dying in their trials (again, besides Hassan). The mothers might not have caught on to the significance of such small things or even cared after their sons were dead.
-->'''Hassan''': Then you will understand, Mr. Shelby, that I do not wish to talk about it.
** Maybe Scott collected all of them shortly after he killed their kids. Like he did with Hassan.
** It just seems to me that any parent looking for a kidnapped child would rather have the entire police force analyzing the evidence for possible fingerprints, tracing the cell phone calls, etc. rather than trying to figure it out on their own. And the police seemed a bit lax in their evidence collection, though I suppose that's down to a willful refusal to commit more resources to the case due to the fact that the killer kidnapped lower-class children. Really, though, this was the only plot point that bothered me. I just kept thinking "Why didn't the cops take this stuff?"
*** I guess it really comes down to whether or not the cops even knew that the stuff existed at all. Signs seem to point to a fairly large "no", given that it appears that no one came forth with the information to begin with. They either run off with the majority of it to complete their trials (leaving behind only a few scant things for Shelby to collect,) or in the case of the remaining parents, just don't see the point in bothering after the fact since it won't bring the victim back. Only Lauren really takes any type of initiative.
**** And even then, it takes a visit from Scott for her to take any kind of initiative about the murders, as her initial refusal to talk about it with Scott Shelby indicates. (A refusal, that, by the way, can persist throughout her introductory chapter if the player doesn't use the right speech prompts as Shelby.) Actually, that seems to be a recurring thing with Scott; the parents of the killer's victims have to have Scott rush in with a BigDamnHeroes moment before they give him evidence. With Lauren and Hassan, it's because he saved their lives (although it depends with Hassan), and with Susan because she wouldn't have been able to tell anyone else since Scott conveniently showed up as she was attempting suicide.
*** Even if they did, it is implied that many in the police force aren't effective, ergo the need for FBI intervention in the case. Some, like Sam, have been working the case to a dead end but were getting close. It also should be remembered that the Origami killer's associates include many in the criminal underworld willing to kill an officer of the law, as well as the killer himself. Also the killer was a cop, giving him means to access and destroy any evidence they did collect, until his retirement.
* I always thought it was because Scott screened each parent before hand. He specifically wanted a father who would risk anything to save his kids; he could have easily screened out the fathers who would have likely taken the coward's way out and went to the police.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Thoughts]]
* Scott Shelby's thoughts seem to deliberately mislead the player.
** It's RuleOfPerception, if the game showed you all the charcater's thoughts, you would be there all day in a random StreamOfConciousness mix of thoughts, so the game shows the important thoughts front and center.
** The problem here is the game lies to you, in a way, telling you that - at any time - L2 will reveal the player's thoughts. It'd be quite a feat for even a Hollywood-style psychopath to commit premeditated murder without, well, thinking about it at all (before and after the Manfred scene) and it's not believable that Shelby can avoid even thinking about his brother when at his grave despite being the motivation for doing unspeakable things to ten-year-old boys. Even ignoring all that, although some of his thoughts have malicious double-meanings like 'I can't just leave her alone', some make no sense; even if you're willing to consider that he's going after a copycat for Lauren's son, he still thinks about 'the investigation' later on for others. Either Shelby [[GenreSavvy knows he's in a game]] or the game's only letting you hear certain thoughts, and [[YouNeverAsked you never asked]]. Makes figuring out the identity of the killer more or less [[CluelessMystery impossible]].
*** Some it does seem deliberately misleading, but it is important to note that none of his thoughts are openly contradictory, just cruelly obfuscating on the part of the writer. For instance, he does think about the murder beforehand and after: "I was crazy to let her come with me. She's trying to help out but she just gets in the way.", "Lauren thinks she's about to find the killer. I'm afraid she's going to be disappointed.", "Poor old man. He didn't deserve to go like that", "I hope I didn't leave any prints in Manfred's shop. The last thing I need is to have to start explaining things to the cops", etc. The hints are just mercilessly vague until subsequent playthroughs. His constant use of the term "the investigation" seems to be referring to the police manhunt and his own investigation into Gordi Kramer. Note that he never says he claims to catch the killer, even in his thoughts. Overall, a lot of it seems to be a case of ExactWords.
*** It's no different from the mystery novel The Murder of Roger Ackroyd, in which the murderer is also the narrator, but you don't find that out until the end. You get to see his thoughts and he never thinks: "Whew! Poirot didn't notice that clue I accidentally left!", but that's regarded as one of the best mystery novel twists ever written, whereas doing the same thing here is apparently cheating. Don't quite get that.
**** That character's name, for those curious: James Sheppard. Sounds a bit like John Sheppard, doesn't it?
*** The difference being The Murder of Roger Ackroyd is about a crime that had already been commited and the murderer was watching the events that were going on passively. In this Scott Shelby is taking an active role in the "investigation", commiting further crimes and actually still doing dark deeds that he realistically should be thinking about some of them. His thoughts are far too passive for someone that's still actively doing stuff to influence the direction of the story. The story expects us to believe that he doesn't think about killing a man before or after immediately doing it. This is, to put it lightly, a stretch of believeability. If this were an examination of events that occurred before the game started then it would be a much different circumstance.
**** The issue is that Shelby DOES think about those things during the course of the game. Look at his thought process before killing Manfred, for example. Before: "Lauren thinks she’s about the find the killer. I’m afraid she’s going to be disappointed.” and "I was crazy to let her come with me." are him not only talking about his imminent action but also the risk he is taking by having Lauren there when he's doing it. After: "Poor old man. He didn’t deserve to go like that…" is Shelby expressing remorse. Hell, look at what he says in 'A Visitor' after waking up: "I needed the rest. I havn’t been sleeping well since the murders started up again.". He thinks about the murders throughout the entire game.
** It's just GameplayAndStorySegregation to me, since it would be pretty bad if the game blew its own big twist with one of its own mechanics. Shelby is supposed to be your average private detective, and the thoughts the player are allowed to hear are designed to reflect that.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Manfred]]
* The events surrounding Manfred turn into a wall banger after TheReveal, because you are supposed to believe that Shelby runs into the backroom, kills Manfred with a typewriter, calls the police, and runs back out all in the space of 13 seconds and without the person in the [[strike:same room as him]] next room over noticing.
** If the timing is taken literally, Scott has roughly 18 seconds from the time he is out of frame to when we see him again. However, Lauren has already turned her back to him a bit before this, and Shelby turns slightly towards the back office. In the flashback during TheReveal, the process actually is shown to take around 23 seconds. The initial events, as played out in the Manfred chapter, seem to take some liberties with the time passage in order to emulate Lauren's perception of the events and add to the player's confusion. Let's just say that Shelby's distorting the narrative throughout the whole chapter and leave it at that.]]
*** Actually, the above troper may have hit gold. Scott's whole purpose through the game is to destroy evidence and throw off his own pursuers. And the game, with its constant [[QuickTimeEvent QTE's]] and "Interactive Drama" angle, actually makes the player as much a pursuer as anyone else. So what does Shelby do about an omnipotent player? Throw him an InterfaceScrew.
** It is equally important to note that that at the time of the murder, not only did Shelby have a fair stretch of time, but every single one of the clocks in the shop was going off. Lauren couldn't hear what was happening. Additionally, Scott doesn't need to actually speak to the 911 operator, only dial and leave the line open.
*** Also mind-boggling is the strange competence of the police. They can somehow distinguish your fingerprints or Lauren's among what must be dozens of other sets of fingerprints from customers (granted, antique stores don't tend to have tons of customers, but surely at least a few since Manfred last wiped every single surface down thoroughly), ''even on the bathroom door'', and from that they question you within a couple of hours, without Jayden around to [[FingerprintingAir Fingerprint Air]].
*** When Scott wipes down the magnifying glass, he only wipes off the lens for some reason. Not only did he bring it over by the handle, but he holds it by the handle ''while he's wiping it'', and still doesn't wipe that part off.
*** It's subtle, but before he puts it down, he wraps the cloth around it. I guess that's supposed to be him wiping the handle as well.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Letter From The Killer]]
* Ethan receives his letter from the Origami Killer in the Father and Son chapter, if you go through the mail on the table next to the front door, Ethan will read it, and as a result... do nothing. He doesn't react at all to the cryptic and morbid wording of the letter, and you can't do anything except put it down and forget about it. Here's the kicker, though - when Ethan is stressing out in the kitchen after Shaun is kidnapped, he opens the letter AGAIN, for the second time and consequently flips out. It's a mystery to me as to why they even included the letter in Father and Son in the first place.
** The first time he sees the letter and disregards it could be because he doesn't care about it. As far as he is concerned, it doesn't matter or mean anything to him. The second time he sees it and flips out is because he finally realizes the meaning behind it and thinks he should've acted sooner. It actually appears a third time in The Killer's Place, when Madison looks at the typewriter and sees the Killer has been typing the same message on it. However, she simply ignores it, because she's never seen it before. It's just there as a foreboding message to the player (He only sends those letters to the fathers of children he's about to kidnap. He's typing another one, ergo, he's about to kidnap another child.)
* The letter for the fourth trial tells Ethan to kill a man and then "send a picture." Wouldn't this mean that he'd have to have the killer's phone number, or address, or SOMETHING? And in turn, wouldn't that provide a huge case-cracking clue as to who the killer is, or at least someone who is in cahoots with him?
** The phone was specifically designed to only send information to the little system the Killer set up (specifically that box Madison uses to break out of the lair), so it doesn't send it to a phone number. Besides that, the phone could be set up to fry itself in the event anyone tries to tamper with it and/or send an alert message to the system that it's been compromised and should be disconnected from the network. It wouldn't be that hard to do since the phone is only required to send snippits of code and one photograph and recieve letters, leaving a lot of room to build such defenses. Plus given how the head of the police's investigation is Blake, he'd most likely ignore it.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Jason]]
* The scene where Jason dies. The car stopped right when Ethan shields his son completely and falls to the ground. How does that kill Jason and leave Ethan in a coma?
** Blame the DiscretionShot. Apparently the original accident scene was supposed to be much more graphic.
*** Is there a video of the original "more graphic" scene online anywhere?
** Ethan may have taken the impact, but the inertia still transfers to Jason. Considering that Ethan is a full-grown man and Jason is... well, not, Jason could either have died from the impact with the car, impact with the ground, or later on from injuries sustained from both.
** The physics don't add up. The car came to an almost complete stop within a second (1.5 s, tops), meaning it wasn't traveling at full speed (google "braking distance"). When we see Ethan and Jason lying on the ground in the flashback late in the game, they are about 0.5 m away from the car, meaning that the inertia wasn't that big to begin with, either, otherwise they'd have rolled much further away. In fact, the bump was barely enough to knock a child over. Also, inertia doesn't transfer between physical bodies, the momentum does. And the rate which it transfers at depends on the rigidity and elasticity of said bodies. Humans are soft and squishy (90% water), so the momentum (which, as discussed above, wasn't that big to begin with) would not have transferred directly to Jason but be dispersed across Ethan's body and Jason would only get a fraction of it. The only explanation for Jason's death are coincidential injuries sustained during the fall: they say you can break your neck falling from a chair. But then, what was the point of a dramatic car bump?
*** The first troper has the answer. The scene was subject to ExecutiveMeddling.
** I was under the assumption that under the discretion shot, Ethan actually was hit by the car and ended up crushing Jason, which would explain why he feels so responsible for the death of Jason, because he (accidentally) killed him.
*** He doesn't have the mass to crush a child that age. Break a collarbone, maybe, but not to inflict lethal damage. unless you meant "crush him in a bear hug", which a) requires much more raw physical strength than he has and b) is a highly unlikely unconscious reaction from someone being hit in the back.
** If you watch the scene again, Ethan was holding Jason face-to-face. It's possible that when they were hit by the car, Ethan took the brunt of the blow (hence being in a coma) but Jason may have hit the back of his head on the ground. For a kid that young, getting their head slammed into asphalt could be deadly.
** That borders on FridgeBrilliance in that it explains some of Ethan's guilt a little more.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Ethan's Gun]]
* When Ethan goes to the train station to get the box that the Origami Killer left him, we see him walk through a metal detector with a security guard standing by it on his way into the locker room. In that case, how the hell did he get the box back out since it had a gun in it?
** Because he doesn't leave the same way he comes in. If you look around the locker room, there is an additional exit with no metal detector.
*** That leaves another question. Either the exit is two-way, leaving the metal detector entirely superfluous, or it's one-way, which means the Origami Killer would be unable to enter with the box.
**** Exit is one way. Metal detector is there to stop people from bringing stuff in. So, that leaves the second question of how the Killer brings the box in. Easiest explanation? Given the sheer amount of money that the Killer is tossing around, a bribe to look the other way is certainly not out of the realm of possibility. Additionally, in most states, private investigators are allowed to carry firearms. Shelby carries one on him most of the time. This might account for how he could pass through the metal detector with a weapon. Especially since as a retired peace officer, he may have received endorsement to carry a concealed weapon in addition to obtaining any permits he may have needed.
**** I don't recall the exit being alarmed, and if it's not then it's as simple as having someone hold the door open from the inside. Remember sneaking into movie theaters as a kid?
**** One possibility is that the Origami Killer, Scott Shelby, could have brought the gun in under his guise of a private investigator. He could have shown his badge at the metal detector to get the gun through, put the gun in the box when he reached the locker, and then would take the exit without the metal detector to avoid being questioned about the whereabouts of his gun.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Madison's Reaction to The Name]]
* When the Origami Killer's mother tells Madison her son's name, why is Madison so shocked? It's just a name she's never heard before.
** Probably because she finally found out who it was. The Doylistic explanation is that they wanted to keep her reaction ambiguous so you wouldn't be sure if she knew the person or not.
*** Additionally, there are people who are aware that Shelby is investigating the OK case. Blake, for instance, knows this, and while this make sense because they were former co-workers, Madison might have been well aware of Shelby's own investigation by virtue of her own.
** Shelby was a decorated cop in the same city which Madison covers. She may have met him through normal circumstances before.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Madison's Phonebook]]
* How did Madison get Norman's number?
** I believe that Cage handwaved it as due to her skills as a IntrepidReporter. Take note that if she calls Jayden, she *does* acknowledge that they've never met. The obvious choice for how this can be is that Sam, with all of his VoiceWithAnInternetConnection powers, pulled some connections offscreen.
** Perry makes a reference to Norman in his public news conference, which also has him talking about a phone line to call for tips, so it's easy to assume Norman would put his number in for tips to reach him after seeing how incompetent the cops are at handling the case.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Mad Jack, Guns, Fights, and Other Stuff]]
* In the Mad Jack chapter, Jayden leaves a gun in the glove compartment of his car. Then, when Mad Jack holds him at gunpoint, he pulls Jayden's gun out of his coat pocket. But THEN, after he manages to climb out of the car before it gets crushed, he's obviously not carrying the gun from the glove compartment. But he pulls another gun out of his coat! [[MindScrew Does Jayden have three guns or is it just a magic teleporting one?]]
** Actually, he does have two guns, apparently: you can do the Mad Jack chapter without ending in the compactor if you're good enough, and he'll have a gun that's not the one in the glove compartment.
*** To clarify: It would seem that Jayden carries one on his person and keeps a spare in his glovebox. Mad Jack holds Jayden up and takes the one on his person, and Jayden can either disarm and arrest Mad Jack with his gun or is otherwise is forced to use the spare one in his glovebox to escape from the car crusher.
** Speaking of odd guns, the gun that comes in the shoebox that Ethan finds counts too. When heading off for the Bear trial, Ethan sticks it in his pocket. It is never seen again until he heads off to do the Shark trial... where he pulls it out of the box and sticks it in his pocket. Again. Then it disappears again when Ethan goes to the warehouse and has to save Shaun - so he can't ShootTheLock like Jayden can. But if he goes to the warehouse alone, he can shoot Shelby with it - and in the Origami Blues ending he commits suicide with it. Are all guns in the Heavy Rain universe [[SchrodingersGun Schrodingers Guns?]]
** How did Scott make himself look considerably thinner during the fight with Norman in Paco's club? Was he wearing a fatsuit for the rest of the game or what?
*** Actually, the guy who killed Paco had the same build as Scott. At any rate, if you're observant and manage to catch a look at the hairdo on the killer's head when he kills Paco Mendez, you can see that it looks exactly the same as Scott's hair.
** Scott's all concerned about leaving fingerprints at the scene of Manfred's murder because he's worried about him and Lauren looking guilty by being at the scene of the crime. Indeed, if he fails to wipe all the prints in time, he gets pulled into the station for questioning. Yet, he does nothing to conceal his involvement in the massacre of 20 armed guards in the final confrontation with Kramer... including apparently leaving Lauren's car ''parked inside the remains of Kramer's billard room''... and yet he expresses no concern about this, and the cops never give him any trouble over it either.
*** Not that this is always the case, but in the more ideal scenarios, it would seem that gets a bit of a HandWave given that Scott is either dead by the end of the next day, anyways, or otherwise on the run from the cops.
*** There are only a handful of things that could even tie Scott to that massacre. It was Lauren's car after all. Either she is at the bottom of the river, where the police would have no clue where to search, or she survived that in which case she shoots Scott dead in the finale. In either scenario, that won't lead the police to Scott. The only way the cops would even know Scott and Lauren were connected is if they were questioned together after the clock shop murder, but that doesn't have to happen in the story. The other is Kramer, should he survive, but if he leads the cops to Scott he runs the risk that Scott can prove they tried to murder him and that his son is a copycat killer.
** When (and if) Ethan escapes Blake and Jayden in Fugitive, why doesn't Jayden, the FBI investigator and the man with the Ari, look for clues on the crime scene?
*** For that matter, why didn't anybody seem to notice when Madison and Ethan were crossing the subway tracks in the same mission?
*** I'm sure they did. But what would you do in the shoes of a bystander?
** So, Shelby keeps his victims in this huge pit that slowly fills up with water. And it's said that it takes three or four days for them to die, depending on rain fall. Okay, so.... do these children not sleep for three or four days? Wouldn't they fall over from exhaustion at some point and drown while unconscious? Do they somehow sleep on the surface of the rising water?
*** Actually, considering it's cold enough to warrant at least two layers of clothing to stay comfortable outside... It's amazing how the children don't die from hypothermia within several hours.
*** Consider dehydration as well. No one can survive even a few days without a single drop of water. So the killer must have been interfering ''in his own plot'' at least a bit by helping the boys survive just a little longer, either to save himself some grief, and/or to give the dads more time with which to complete the trials. Either that, or it was '''dirty water''' for the poor boys that did try to cling to survival until they passed out from exhaustion. FridgeBrilliance and FridgeHorror.
*** Also, if you have Jayden collect enough evidence at the crime scene and then examine the kid's body, he notes from the ARI bloodwork that the kid was suffering from severe exhaustion. Sheer fear kept them alive until there was no way to drown. Even if a kid did fall asleep by accident, it's likely he would've woken back up immediately from going under.
** And while we're talking about Shelby, how does a detective, who wasn't making all that much money as a cop and is virtually assured to make even less as a private investigator, afford to set up this elaborate series of traps, including paying a garage to hold a car in the lot for years. Not to mention the technical skills to build and program a series of GPS units and automated systems that are at least sophisticated enough to recognize when a person has performed a specific task successfully. Did the Origami Killer go to ITT in his spare time?
*** Well, he was in good hands with all of his criminal friends under his alias. Maybe they all offered him services/payed him money for the protection from the law?
** During the Butterfly challenge, how come Ethan doesn't simply ''sweep'' the glass away instead of crawling over it? Also in the condenser room, there's a clear path around it with pipes on the other side to act as a ladder to avoid going through the power transformers altogether.
*** Sweeping the glass? That would take a pretty long time, seeing as how that particular vent is pretty long and there is ''lots'' of glass on the ground almost the entire way through. Sure, he could do it, but there are quite a few things going against it. It won't protect your body when you're rounding the corners. To see how much glass he'd have to sweep away, he'd burn through all of his matches faster than you can say go, and so he would likely get lost in the vent and die from inhaling the gas. There's the off chance that he could cut himself on the glass while sweeping it away. And then you have to remember he's also fighting against time throughout pretty much the entire game to complete all of the trials and get to Shaun.
*** I think a better question might be 'How did the glass get there?'. The Killer is a bit too big to fit through the vents, and (as far as I know) it would be nearly impossible to just drop glass in to the vents and hope it gets blown all over the place. Also, regarding the pipe alternate route, the only reason I can think of it is that Ethan isn't good at lateral thinking.
**** Most likely the killer paid someone else to do it, maybe even killing them after they were done to ensure their silence. He used a lot of hired guns throughout the game, so it's pretty much in character for him.
*** If the electricity was arcing around like that, how the hell did Ethan avoid it? If it's jumping to nearby things that conduct electricity, it's going to jump to anything nearby that conducts electricity. ''Including Ethan.''
** Where did Blake get his gun in the "Under Arrest" chapter? He doesn't have a belt and shoulder holster.
** Okay, so Gordi Kramer was in fact responsible for one of the seven deaths attributed to the Origami Killer, yes? Gordi, however, was not the Origami Killer and was just trying to cover up his own sick game. He would likely not have A. used the same origami figure (the dog), B. used the same species of orchid, and C. killed at six inches of rain, as the real killer would have. A and B could potentially be [[HandWave handwaved]] as him having read the details of the case, though in general law enforcement agencies do not release such details in order to flush out any would be copycatters. Whatever the case though, Gordi could not possibly have known about the six inches of rain, as that was only discovered upon Jayden doing the profile. My question, then, is this. Why the hell didn't Jayden catch, right from the beginning, that one of the deaths was not in fact the work of the Origami Killer, but just of some copycat?
*** Gordi Kramer's father had his fingers in everything, and knew about Gordi's obsession; it's entirely probable that he bribed someone who would have known more than was released to the public, explaining the knowledge of orchids and origami. If you're obsessed with a serial killer and have the police connections to get more access to information than the public has, or even if you don't, you may notice by yourself that the murders always happen in the fall, and that a new victim tends to pop up around the time that the rainfall adds up to roughly six inches. Really, Norman is just more observant than the city's cops, who seem to be really jaded fans of the shortcut and certainly not the sharpest tools in the shed (nor the most dedicated, nor the least corrupt) in any case. Look at the highly angry and incompetent Blake, for instance, and how Shelby uncovers a lot of evidence that the cops never found.
* The convenience store robbery scene. The guy holds up the shop with a Desert Eagle, which is probably worth more money than the contents of the till.
** So he stole it and couldn't fence it for some reason, or inherited it and didn't want to sell it.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Fired From The Police Force]]
* Why is Captain Perry fired with Blake for killing Ethan?
** Must be because he declares to the press that he is the Origami Killer without getting his confession.
*** Plus he resigns if Shawn dies, so it's most likely because people feel he's incompetent at his job, what with 8 or nine kids dying on his watch from a serial killer.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:The Reveal]]
* Is this troper the only one who found the reveal to be too early? Even though it was pretty close to the game's conclusion, even then it felt really out of place. I guess it gave us time to adjust that one of our beloved main characters happened to be the Origami Killer, but I think it would've been better if it happened at the warehouse. Ethan, Madison and/or Norman arrive there and BAM! Out of the shadows steps Shelby. He then begins to go through a lengthy explanation on his backstory before the respective fight scenes happen. I loved how the game kept up a trend of having Shelby deceive the player constantly, so I was disappointed when about 3/4 of the way through, it just dropped like that. Instead scenes are dragged out where Ethan, Madison and Norman deduce where the warehouse is AFTER we know Shelby is the killer. It would've been nice to see Shelby playing along also, pretending like he was trying to find it.
** Err, you don't find out that it's Shelby until after Ethan and Jayden have either found the warehouse or failed to find it. I have no idea why you think it was the other way around, first Ethan does his last test, and you get to see if you figured out where the warehouse is. Then Jayden's scene is next, and if you figure it out then you get confirmation of it's location, then you get the flashback then you get the reveal. Madison is on her way to the killer's place by that point too. Madison had no way of getting to it without going to Shelby's place since Ethan wouldn't let her know to keep her safe and Jayden isn't the type to tell reporters he's never met where the most wanted man in the state is hiding. Also, it was two scences before the warehouse reveal, that's not 3/4s of the way through, that's 7/8s. Plus we wouldn't have gotten that scene of him burning all the evidence, which I thought was quite powerful. Plus, "lengthy explanation of his backstory?" Shawn was drowning!! Ethan would have just said "I don't give a fuck, where's my son!" Not to mention that if you failed to get there with anybody else, there would be no big reveal, but you would have been able to figure out that Shelby was the killer because he didn't stop it and didn't appear, hence ruining the reveal.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:Shaun's ordeal]]
* So, erm, about 3-4 days pass between Shaun's kidnapping and rescue/death. This whole time, the kid has been standing in a pool of water that grew progressively deeper in wet clothes in the middle of a freaking late-autumn rain season. By the most optimistic estimations, how long would he last before dying of hypothermia? And here is another question: during the last 72 hours, he apparently didn't need any sleep at all, since otherwise he would fall down and drown. Also, I don't imagine the Killer was feeding him all this time. How tough must a kid be to survive 72 hours in cold water without sleep or food? And apparently, ''all'' other kids lasted that long before him.
** Going 72 hours without sleep would be taxing, but certainly within the realm of plausibility. The hypothermia thing is a real problem though.
** There's nothing that says that the water is cold, just that it's rainwater. Shelby could have rigged the well to heat the water to a safe temperature.
*** Shaun says "I'm so cold" the first time Ethan turns on the phone.
** While Scott may have a warped set of morals, it's obvious that he wants the fathers to save their children. Otherwise he wouldn't give them the trials that eventually spell out where they're being held. Because of this, my guess is that he doesn't leave Shaun in the storm drain all the time - only for the pictures sent to Ethan upon completing a trial, and in the final few hours. Even if that's not the case and they stay in the drain the whole time, then the children would pass out from either lack of sleep, lack of food, or hypothermia, and subsequently drown.
** Then Shaun is one stupid effing kid. And all the other kids, too. When Norman reviews the evidence of the previous murders, he notes that there are never any signs of struggle. It is explained by Scott pretending to be a policeman when he abducted his victims. However, if he let them out of the drain for prolonged periods of time, you'd think that a sane kid would add two and two, figure out the guy was a fake/psycho, and at least try to escape. At least one of them should have, statistically, had some balls.
*** They should also, statistically have had some brains. I don't care how insecure you are, no 10 year old I have met would get in a car with someone who is dressed as a cop unless their parent or someone they know is with them. Take Shaun: His father blacks out, possibly in front of him and starts walking away. Do you A) Go back to your home which is extremely nearby B) Follow your trusted love one or C) Follow some cop away from where your dad is? That whole scene, while poingnant, really made me wonder about Shaun's intelligence. And weren't there loads of other people who he may have known at the park who he could have gone to?
** This is the only example of FridgeLogic that genuinely bugs me, because fictional works generally do bring it up and attempt to HandWave it, whereas this game doesn't. My only guess is Shelby took them out at certain points to "dry off" and keep them alive a little longer; perhaps he intimidated them into submission with a gun or threats. Implausible, but slightly less so. Would all kids that age be so stupid and naive in real life? No, but we have the trope MostWritersAreAdults for a reason.
* You know, it just occurred to me: physical damage or not, mentally, Shaun is going to be ''traumatized a all hell''. Probably for the rest of his life. I mean... he'll probably never be able to take a bath again. He'll get panic attacks whenever there's a light drizzle. He'll never, ''ever'' again trust a fat policeman. None of the endings make any reference to such psychological damage. Either Shaun is perfectly fine or he's dead.
[[/folder]]

[[folder:ARI]]
* In a game world that appears to be a very realistic mirror of this day and age, the presence of the ARI set really baffles me. This is some really, really, ''really'' advanced technology. Way more advanced than would be plausible to claim came out of some top-secret government facility. Maybe the black markets of [[TabletopGame.EclipsePhase {{Extropia}}]], but modern day America? It's a pair of glasses and gloves that contains more sensory equipment than the starship Enterprise, is capable of creating a variety completely realistic, fully interactive virtual reality worlds literally at the wave of a hand, may or may not contain an artificial intelligence, and in one interpretation of the ending, is capable of ''brain uploading''. No world in which the creation of such technology is possible could look so much like modern day america. At the very minimum, people would be going around with cellphones a hundred times more advanced than anything available today. Maybe cars would be driving themselves or something.
Anyway, yeah. This technology feels completely out of place and Norman should feel bad for having it.
** Yeah, it's especially stupid when you realize they've dropped the paranormal connection stuff that would explain Ethan's blackouts because it "didn't fit with the realism of the game".
** This troper also wondered why no one else ever asked about ARI, or why Jayden had his sunglasses on in the pouring rain in the dark, for instance.
** In the manual, it shows an email announcement saying that the ARI is a ''very'' new and ''very'' experimental new technology that most people aren't aware even exists yet, and so far most think that it's only rumors that certain FBI agents have been received early working models. It's never explained in the story, but essentially it's very very hush hush new technology offered only to limited important people.
** Though that still doesn't explain why no one bats an eye at the new guy who sat down on a bench, put on some glowing blue shades and a glove and started batting at the air for 5 minutes.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Blake]]
* Anyone else see him as sometimes [[StrawmanHasAPoint having a point]]? He makes a perfectly reasonable argument for shooting Nathaniel (seriously, try the "reach slowly and dramatically into jacket and suddenly pull out an object and point it at an armed cop" stunt in RealLife and see how well that ends); Norman's justification for his actions is "We got lucky, so forget the past", and that's if he tries to explain anything at all rather than childishly call Blake a pussy in an obnoxious voice. Blake's arguable MoralEventHorizon is him suspecting and possibly beating and killing Ethan, but in that case, he doesn't know what we do; that Ethan is innocent. To him, the guy killed his own son and puts on a CrocodileTears act to cover it up, and his psychiatrist is an obfuscating prick who's witholding information about this murderer for no good reason. It's also understandable that, as a street cop, he wouldn't put much stock in Norman's profiling; he's probably not the only one in the department to share that sentiment, and it's probably held by at least some cops outside of fiction. Now, does this make any of what Blake does right? No, and even if it did, he's kind of a dick in general. But it would at least push him into Type III Anti-Villain territory.
** Blake's behavior is only reasonable if you don't take the principle of "benefit of the doubt" into account. True, Blake doesn't know that Ethan is innocent, like we do. But the burden of proof is on the cops to prove they have a case against someone, not on the suspect to prove he doesn't deserve that kind of treatment (which is supposed to prevent cops from harassing citizens instead of serving and protecting them). Admittedly it's different in places like Japan, where the burden of proof is on the suspect to prove his innocence instead. But this game does not take place in Japan or any other such country, so Blake's behavior is still in clear violation of ethical principles.
** It's also a matter of due process. Blake is a bad cop not simply because he's hostile, but because he's seriously incompetent as a detective. In the interrogation, even without the video-tape, the presence of severe bruising on a suspect who: 1, didn't have these bruises when he arrived, and 2, was found unarmed and possibly wounded, would mean any confession was made under duress. Even if Nathaniel is crazed, Blake's behavior is harassment, which once again taints their investigation. (Not to mention Nathaniel only pulled a gun after Blake attacked him.) The doctor has a legally binding obligation to not disclose information to the police unless the patient is a clear danger to themselves or others and any detective should know that. (Ethan's psych problems are dubious evidence for either as well, meaning from a legal standpoint the doctor likely shouldn't have told them anything.) Even when he has Ethan Blake doesn't consider that his department will look like idiots if they don't at least confirm whether he has an alibi for the other murders.
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Shelby: Obese Contortion Expert]]
* I'm always stunned that nobody ever points this out: The second Origami Killer Trial, The Butterfly, is the one that takes place in a derelict power station. Ethan has to crawl his way through around fifty feet of elaborate, pitch black and incredibly claustrophobic tunnels in order to complete the trial. These tunnels have multiple forking routes through them with only one path to success, and the whole span is covered in glass shards that have been painstakingly affixed to ensure Ethan can't get by them quickly without lacerating himself. How in the name of Blackbeard's taint could Shelby, an obese man in his mid-fifties, crawl through the tunnels and set up the glass? He didn't have any confidants to work with, and he couldn't have forced the children to do it without injuring them, which would have appeared in the police reports. It's the reason I concluded that Shelby couldn't be the killer, or at least couldn't without the assistance of others in a wider conspiracy.
** "He didn't have any confidants to work with…" Says who? He has at least one acquaintance in the underworld; Paco Mendes, who claims Shelby (or as he knew him, John Sheppard) kept him out of prison on at least one occasion. It should have been easy to hire someone small enough for the glass job. If not that, I actually kind of got the impression the tunnel might have been filled with glass in some sort of accident, and Shelby took advantage of it. Shelby isn't in his mid-fifties, either; [[YoungerThanTheyLook he's 44 according to his gravestone, or 48 according to the newscaster]].
[[/folder]]

[[folder: Madison's Unnecessarily Sexy Journalism]]
* Okay, so we already know that Madison basically exists to be gratuitous fanservice/disservice, but she's supposed to be a journalist, a ''war correspondent''. She can't think of a better way to get in to talk to Paco than to tart herself up and seduce him? She knows how to pick locks, she could have just walked up to the office, let herself in, and search the place for clues.
** Well, the guard outside of Paco's office might have had an issue with some random woman coming up and picking the lock and letting herself in. Aside from that, if she'd broken in, it would've been pretty tough for her to explain herself if Paco decided to go to his office and found her there.
*** Not having played it in awhile, I could be wrong, but I seem to recall the guard isn't by the office door while Paco is on the ground floor because he's doing guard duty in front of Paco's alcove. Either way, finding a way to distract the bodyguard would still have been easier and safer than doing the femme fatale thing.
*** ^ There are two guards, one by his office, and the older one down in the vip section. There's no way for her to get past them unseen.
** Your answer is right there in the question. She didn't just need to get into his office, she needed to talk to Paco specifically. She found the club based on a card she pulls out of the Doctor's house, showing that he was an intermediary for the Lizard Trial apartment. She came there looking to get information about was in all likelihood an off-the-books cash deal. It might not even have any written clues to be found. So she needs to talk to Paco, and she can't exactly wait around all night, so she tries to seduce him to get him upstairs and alone. She didn't count him him taking her purse (and gun) away and then immediately pulling his own gun on her, naturally.
*** That still seems pretty stupid. It's just as likely that there were clues in the office as not. It'd be one thing if she tried it ''after'' finding nothing in the office, but jumping headfirst into the seduction plan has her assuming that a) Paco treats women decently and b) that he's too dumb to be suspicious of her. He's a major criminal with connections to dangerous people, and very likely to have enemies; what did she THINK would happen if she lured him with promises of sex?
**** She didn't assume Paco treated women decently, she brought a handgun for that exact reason. Like I said, she didn't count on him immediately taking the bag away and pulling his own piece on her. Had he not pulled the gun the second she showed hesitation, she probably could have made some excuse ("Let me get a condom" or something) and grabbed the bag back. Even assuming Paco kept some kind of written clue lying around that tied him to not one but two serial killers (a silly thing for him to do), there's no guarantee it would be in his office. For all she knows, it could be in his apartment, or in his car, or at another business she's not even aware of. She needs to talk to Paco.
***** Well, except for all the clues you ''do'' find in his office. That entire scene exists solely to debase Madison.
****** What clues would those be? The trace evidence that Norman finds with ARI? The fantastic technology that Madison doesn't have access to? Or is it the receipts that fall out of the Origami Killer's pocket, which weren't there until Norman fistfights him? There was nothing for Madison to find in the office - the answers were with Paco.
******* She could have just called the police. She has a good reputation and she has Jayden's number, Paco is a known criminal, and the police are under a lot of pressure to catch the Origami Killer; there's a lot of material there to be making deals with. That's sort of the problem with a lot of what Madison goes through, she's the only female player character so ''of course'' she has to take breaks from being an actual thinking person to be a sawhorse with boobs every few hours.
******** She ''never'' calls the local police in the main game. Whether that is because she wants the scoop for herself or because she's already aided and abetted Ethan at the Lizard trial is not explained. Not that it would make any difference - Blake is totally fixated on Ethan Mars. Even if she did call, he would hang up. As for Jayden, by the time of Sexy Girl he's either dead or on his way to the nightclub anyway.
********* Just because she doesn't, it doesn't mean she ''can't'', that's why it's a headscratcher. As for Jayden, why ''not'' call him? She doesn't know he's on his way to Blue Lagoon, so what's the point in not calling him, telling him what she knows, and then working out a plan with him instead of purposefully putting herself at risk for sexual violence, or worse? Or, better yet, finding some other excuse to get in to talk to Paco that doesn't go "seduce a known, long-time criminal in connection with a serial killer and expect him to be an idiot and just fall for it at face value without being suspicious in the least"?
********** Unless you accept that Madison has a personal motive to uncover the killer - whether that being the scoop of a lifetime or some personal vendetta, then ''none'' of her actions make sense. Including the DLC, she puts herself in harm's way on three separate occasions (The Taxidermist, evading police in the Lizard trial, and the Doc) before she heads to Paco's club. In none of those instances does she have anything resembling a plan, nor does she bring a weapon. Sure, she could have avoided all that if she just called the police and let the men handle things, but that wouldn't have made her a very interesting protagonist. What would even be the point of making her a playable character?
*********** Personally? I don't think there ''was'' a point in making her a playable character, except to provide a focus for the MaleGaze and a largely unnecessary romantic subplot. As far as I can recall, Madison never expresses any interest in the Origami Killer case until after she meets Ethan, and from that point on, everything she does is motivated by her desire to help him. In the end, she's willing to get physically assaulted, be sexually exploited, and risk going to prison for a guy she's only spent a few on-screen minutes with, and a significant portion of those minutes are spent treating him for grievous injuries and having sex with him (while he is still grievously injured) if he's cool with it. And on top of that, her stupid Sexy Girl plot is ''completely unnecessary'' to the story, because Jayden figures out the connection between Paco and the Origami Killer anyway.
*********** The sex scene was beyond stupid and you won't get any argument on that point. But she has legitimate motivations to get involved: either she does it because she's a reporter (as expanded on in the Taxidermist DLC), she wants to strike back at a serial killer because she was nearly the victim of one (again the DLC), or she learns that Ethan's son is in peril. If you don't accept those, fine, but they exist. And the part about Jayden is a natural consequence of the plot. They are investigating the same case so naturally they eventually converge on Paco, as he is the front man arranging the whole thing. Madison actually has contact with Ethan, so she follows the Lizard trial apartment address to the Doc to Paco. Jayden has access to the crime scene and the police records, so he follows the tire tracks to Mad Jack to Paco. Strictly speaking, none of the characters actions are necessary, because any of the three heroes can eventually solve the crime, save Shaun, and kill Shelby.
************* It's hard to accept any of those motives because they're not consistent with Madison's actions. She's a reporter, but she never ''reports'' any of what she knows to anyone, even when it's crucial information, who might actually be in a position to help until she calls Jayden. That's part of what makes her actions so stupid in context: I can buy wanting to get the scoop, but she isn't actually after a scoop, she's only in it to help Ethan (she even meets him while she's just crashing at a motel to get some sleep, she's not investigating or anything, she doesn't even care about the Origami Killer until she meets him) and all other possible motives for her are retconned in by the DLC. Her pursuit of Paco is silly because she has no reason to assume the only way to get any information from him is straight from his own mouth. It's less climactic, but an actual reporter would probably have gone to city hall to find out who Paco rents to, or even just an address book, or virtually anything besides putting herself in that kind of danger by confronting Paco directly. That's the core problem of the issue: Madison has plenty of options to do what she wants ''without'' being assaulted every time she's on screen, and the plot doesn't depend on her being exploited or sexually abused to continue the story; it's just gratuitous sexy-violent titillation in a story that really, ''really'' did not need it.
[[/folder]]


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