Created By: Pichu-kun on April 18, 2017 Last Edited By: Pichu-kun on November 11, 2017

Masculine And Feminine Gay Couple

Same-gender couples that consist of one very masculine individual and one very feminine individual.

Name Space:
Main
Page Type:
trope
When it comes to gay couples in media, this is the most common set-up for them. One is very feminine while the other is very masculine. This usually also shows itself in their character designs, with one being shorter and dantier (sometimes even twinky if male) then their One Head Taller, and often more muscular, lover.

This trope goes back to misconceptions that there must be a "man" and a "woman" in a relationship. It also invokes Opposites Attract. This trope also appears in works written by queer people. It's not remarkably rare to see couples like this in Real Life, and thus the writers take inspiration from experience.

Pairings involving two Straight Gays or two Manly Gays are becoming increasing popular in media in order to subvert the Camp Gay cliche, however couples involving two Camp Gay individuals are quite rare. Pairing two Lipstick Lesbians is extremely common, especially for fanservice reasons or in Yuri Genre works (in Queer Romance it also pops up but so do butch-femme couples), but two Butch Lesbians in a relationship are all but unheard-of in fiction.

Overlaps with Tomboy and Girly Girl and Sensitive Guy and Manly Man. Also see uke and seme for Japanese tropes heavily associated with this concept.

Examples:

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     Anime & Manga 
  • Ymir from Attack on Titan is a tall, muscular young woman who usually wears trousers and is The Lad-ette. Her love interest Krista is a short, feminine girl.
  • Subverted with cousins Rei and Yoshino from Maria-sama ga Miteru. Rei is a tall girl with Boyish Short Hair who is into kendo while Yoshino is a short Ill Girl with Girlish Pigtails. When it comes to their actual personalities however, Yoshino is the loud and more tomboyish one of the two.
  • Haruka and Michiru from Sailor Moon are one of the most iconic examples in manga. Haruka is a cool bifauxnen who always wears the boy's school uniform and Michiru is her Ojou girlfriend who plays the violin. This is somewhat an example of Character Exaggeration in the 90s anime. In the manga, Haruka is still butch but has her feminine moments and even occasionally wears girly clothes. Inthe 90s anime she is much more masculine and is even a Bokukko (in the manga she uses the girly pronoun "atashi").
  • Subverted in Aoi Hana. Yasuko is Fumi's first girlfriend. She's a tall, boyish looking girl who prefers masculine clothes outside of school and is the captain of the basketball team. Yasuko however doesn't enjoy being forced into a masculine role in order to fit people's expectations and is actually bisexual, not lesbian. Yasuko and Fumi break up, and after being Put On The Bus Yasuko grows her hair out and undergoes a Girliness Upgrade. Fumi's girlfriend at the end of the manga is her short, girly childhood friend Akira.
  • Axis Powers Hetalia: Chibitalia and Holy Roman Empire are a Puppy Love example. Chibitalia is a meek artist who wore female clothes while HRE is a bold warrior who wears boy's clothes. Subverted as HRE actually mistook Chibitalia for a girl. As an adult, Italy became a keet and started wearing men's attire.
  • Revolutionary Girl Utena has the butch Utena and femme Anthy, who are also Lady and Knight. Both are bisexual as well. This is pronounced even more in The Movie as Utena crops her hair short and turns into a bifauxnen while Anthy grows her hair to Rapunzel Hair levels.

     Comic Books 
  • Subverted with Batwoman and her girlfriend Maggie. At first glance they fit the archetype, with Kate being femme and Maggie being butch, however they are both in fact butch.
  • If well she isn't see so much as butch, ex-detective Renee Montoya, also known as The Question II, had a couple in the time she was Gotham City detective in which both were seen as butch and femme, respectively. Later as The Question, she worked with Kate Kane aka Batwoman as a vigilante team, both also having an affair and usually seen as a couple for the fans.

     Fan Works 
  • Maria-sama ga Miteru fans often pair up Youko and Sei. It was originally Shimako and Sei who were popular, but Sei and Shimako 'broke up' when the former graduated. After Shimako gained a close relationship with her petite souer Noriko, fans of them together really got into pairing up Sei with her best friend Youko. Sei is canonically lesbian but Youko is Ambiguously Gay at most. Sei was always tomboyish but once graduating high school she cut her hair and became even more-so. Youko is comparatively much more feminine than Sei, resulting in this.
  • Becoming Free is a Frozen fanfic where The High Queen Elsa falls for a stable-worker she hires named Freya.
  • Zoey/Dawn is one of the few non-Crack Pairing ships in Pokémon that fits this trope. Zoey is a boyish girl with short hair while Dawn is a long-haired Girly Girl. Their coordinator clothes are almost always a prince motif and a princess motif respectively. While their Les Yay never went beyond Romantic Two-Girl Friendship material, shippers started noticing this even before Zoey appeared in-series.
  • Even with wimpification most South Park ships don't quite fit. One of the few exceptions is the very popular Kenny/Butters ship, especially since fans really like exaggerating Butters into a crossdressing Camp Gay twink.
  • Two of the most popular ships for Edd in Ed, Edd n Eddy are of him and either Eddy or Kevin. Edd is a polite, shy Neat Freak, while Eddy is a macho, loud and short-tempered kid and Kevin is a Jerk Jock.
  • Anna and Marnie from When Marnie Was There is are the Fan-Preferred Couple of the film. Anna has Boyish Short Hair and is slightly tomboyish while Marnie is a girly girl with long hair who almost always wears blue dresses. Marnie is Ambiguously Bi considering that, despite her Romantic Two-Girl Friendship with Anna, she falls for and marries a man.

     Films — Live-Action 
  • Downplayed in But I'm a Cheerleader. Megan is a very feminine closet case while Graham is a Aloof Dark-Haired Girl with shorter hair who acts as her Closet Key. The most butch girl at the Cure Your Gays camp actually turns out to be straight.
  • Out At The Wedding has a woman pretending to be a lesbian because she's afraid her family won't accept her boyfriend because he's black. Alex ends up invoking this when she pays a butch lesbian to act like her girlfriend. The true example is Risa and Alex's sister, Jeannie. Her recently-married sister turns out to be in the closet and is using her husband as a beard. Jeannie ends up falling for her sister's "girlfriend" and Risa in turn falls for her back.
  • Tomboy is about a boyish girl named Laure who moves to a new town and pretends to be a boy. She falls for a girl named Lisa and they hit it off. The ending is ambiguous. Laure's gender gets revealed and Lisa is initially upset, however they appear to start a friendship afterwards.
  • I Now Pronounce You Chuck and Larry has a scene where Alex and her gay friend are guessing who of the titular duo is Femme and who is the Butch, which for them apparently is the same as Bottom and Top.

     Literature 
  • Though it's not explicitly stated, housemates Misses Murgatroyd and Hinchcliffe from A Murder Is Announced fit this trope, with Hinchcliffe being the butch and Murgatroyd being the femme.
  • The first novel in Katherine V Forrest's Kate Delafield detective series, Amateur City, has the very Butch Lesbian Kate starting a relationship with Lipstick Lesbian Aimee, and feeling some genuine identity disorientation when she finds herself bottoming to Aimee in bed and enjoying it.
  • The 1928 novel The Well Of Loneliness is about a woman named Stephen who is diagnosed with "gender inversion" (an outdated 'disorder' that theorized gay people are mentally the opposite gender). Stephen falls in love with a nurse named Mary while working together during The Great War.
  • Patience and Sarah is a historical novel about two women in 19th century America who fall in love. Patience is a traditionally feminine well-to-do woman while Sarah is a scandalous figure who wears men's clothes and does men's work.

     Live-Action TV 
  • Spartacus: Blood and Sand uses this sometimes. The first example is butch gladiator Barca and gentle slave Alexios, which ends tragically when Barca is murdered and Alexios is unable to defend himself from being repeatedly raped by another Jerk Ass gladiator, driving him to kill himself. Notably averted in the prequel series where Barca's previous lover Auctus is as butch as he is. In the later part of the story, hot-headed macho gladiator turned rebel Agron is paired with the gentler, calmer, and less intimidating, though still pretty deadly, Nasir. Averted with the series' main lesbian pairing, Lucretia and Gaia, who are both very feminine.
  • While not a couple, Moose and Kevin like to hook-up a lot in Riverdale. Moose is a closeted bisexual/gay guy who is on the football team and has a girlfriend while Kevin is an openly gay boy. Kevin borders on Camp Gay (in contrast with his Straight Gay comic counterpart) while Moose is much more masculine.
  • In Will & Grace, Will is the manly man to Jack's feminine man. Behind the scenes, the actor who played Will won the part over an actual gay man who was perceived as too manly to be a convincing gay man.

     Music Videos 
  • The official lyric video "Unconditionally" by Katy Perry features a feminine-looking woman singing the lyrics to a more masculine-looking woman, who is played by androgynous model Erika Linder.

     Theatre 
  • Downplayed with The Children's Hour and its second film adaptation. It's not noticeable due to Values Dissonance however Martha was considered tomboyish for the time. Her Ambiguously Bi best friend and crush Karen is more of a girly girl compared to her. Martha is very closeted about her sexuality and ends up Driven to Suicide before she gets to even date a woman.

     Video Games 
  • Mass Effect: A lesbian Commander Shepard is always the "butch" one in every relationship, whether it be with Liara, Kelly, Samantha, Diana, or Samara. Although the last one is a Lady of War only slightly more femme than Shepard.
  • Dragon Age II lets you play with this. A male Hawke (especially the default with the beard and rugged look) seems pretty "butch" compared to Fenris or Anders (your uncle will even say that he doesn't have to ask "which one of you is the girl" if you're romancing Fenris). Hawke can be designed and played much less butch, but the male love interests are pretty no matter how you swing it.
  • Pokémon X and Y features a subtextual version between Brawns & Brawn Frank and Sly. Psychics are effeminate looking young men while Black Belts are muscular and masculine. Frank and Sly have some heavy Ho Yay in their dialogue.
  • In the Distant Finale game of Power Instinct series, Groove on Fight (also called Power Instinct 3), there's Rudolph Garthheimer (selectable character and also Sub Boss) and Damian Shade (NPC in Arcade version and Secret Character in the Sega Saturn port), which also are the first gay couple in the series.
  • Life is Strange:
    • There is Max and Chloe. Max is more shy and traditionally feminine than Chloe, who's a Laddette punk girl. Downplayed in that Max is still far from the most feminine member of the cast, and when they were kids, Chloe was an outright girly girl before she Took a Level in Cynic (whereas Max stayed more consistently feminine as she grew up).
    • Life is Strange: Before the Storm is a prequel that focuses on Chloe (the Player Character this time) as she takes said level in cynic in Max's absense, including her relationship with Rachel (whose disappearance drives the plot of the original game). Once again she's the butch, in a relationship with a Girly Girl with a Tomboy Streak.

     Webcomics 

     Western Animation 
Community Feedback Replies: 93
  • April 18, 2017
    eroock
    The female leads from Bound 1996. Perhaps somebody else can elaborate.
  • April 18, 2017
    NubianSatyress
    Mass Effect: A lesbian Commander Shepard is always the "butch" one in every relationship, whether it be with Liara, Kelly, Samantha, Diana, or Samara. Although the last one is a Lady Of War only slightly more femme than Shepard.
  • April 19, 2017
    lakingsif
    Isn't this just the gay-relationship version of Tomboy And Girly Girl and Sensitive Guy And Manly Man? I call The Same But More Specific.
  • April 20, 2017
    Pichu-kun
    There's a lot of weight to this stereotype that I'd say goes beyond those two tropes.
  • April 20, 2017
    lakingsif
    ^ could we get a bit more description for that?
  • April 20, 2017
    NubianSatyress
    If nothing else, I'd say the romantic examples are common enough to be split into their own Sub Trope.
  • April 20, 2017
    Pichu-kun
    ^^ I don't know how to explain it. The butch-femme cliche has just been a thing for decades.
  • April 20, 2017
    CactusFace
    • I Now Pronounce You Chuck And Larry has a scene where Alex and her gay friend are guessing who of the titular duo is Femme and who is the Butch, which for them apparently is the same as Bottom and Top.
  • April 20, 2017
    IniuriaTalis
    • An episode of Modern Family featured Jay and Cameron's father arguing over whose son is more feminine because neither wanted to think of their kid as the "woman" in the relationship. In general Mitch and Cam don't fit this trope, since neither is particularly masculine.
  • April 21, 2017
    Getta
    Butch and femme cliche is, well, derived from the natural tendency of "there should be someone on top", really. I think there's a more scientific term for this but I forgot. Sexual Dimorphism?
  • April 21, 2017
    LondonKdS
    Spartacus Blood And Sand uses this sometimes. Butch gladiator Barca and gentle slave Alexios, which ends tragically when Barca is murdered and Alexios is unable to defend himself from being repeatedly raped by another Jerk Ass gladiator, driving him to kill himself. Notably, the prequel series reveals that Barca's previous lover Auctus was as butch as he was. In the later part of the story, hot-headedly macho gladiator turned rebel Agron is paired with the much calmer and less intimidating, though still pretty deadly, Nasir. Averted with the series' main lesbian pairing, Lucretia and Gaia, who are both very feminine.
  • April 21, 2017
    Pichu-kun
    ^^ I don't think it has to do with 'topping' but gender roles.
  • April 21, 2017
    NubianSatyress
    Yeah. People have been debating whether its Nature Vs Nurture for decades now.
  • April 21, 2017
    TristanJeremiah
    Sounds alot like Tomboy And Girly Girl
  • April 21, 2017
    oneuglybunny
    The equivalent for Japanese media is Seme and Uke, though these terms are usually reserved for the Shoujo genre.
  • April 21, 2017
    Snicka
    Theatre:
  • April 21, 2017
    Getta
    Um, do you think title has to be changed? "Butch and femme" sound a bit lesbian-specific.

    @ Nubian: Yeah, there's this desire of humans to "go against nature" just because they can think (Homo sapiens, remember) outside of natural process.
  • April 21, 2017
    NubianSatyress
    It's not a desire for humans to "go against nature". It's a debate about whether or not things we take for granted are based on natural causes or cultural assumptions.

    Stating that "butch and femme" is "the natural process" makes a number of assumptions that modern science has not conclusively determined.
  • April 21, 2017
    Getta
    "Stating that "butch and femme" is "the natural process" makes a number of assumptions that modern science has not conclusively determined."

    This is my personal thought, but there is one big "assumption" to it: Other species do play gender roles based on their, well, sex. It's humans (and AFAIK, only humans) who defied it. (Prove me wrong.)
  • April 21, 2017
    IniuriaTalis
  • April 21, 2017
    Basara-kun
    Comic Books:
    • In The Authority, there's Apollo and Midnighter, basically what should be if Superman and Batman were a couple (they're expies of them, by the way). Considering the righteousness way of the former and the ruthless methods of the latter, Apollo should be the femme and Midnighter the butch in their relationship.
  • April 21, 2017
    NubianSatyress
    ^^^ Okay, first, I'm not here to "prove" anything. AFAIK, this wiki is not supposed to take a stance on hotly-debated topics such as politics or, in this case, gender. All I'm saying is that your "personal thought" should not be used in a factual manner in defining a trope .

    Second: What IniuriaTails said.
  • April 22, 2017
    CactusFace
    • Downplayed in Overwatch: While not a Butch Lesbian, Tracer has a tomboyish personality and character design. Her girlfriend on the other hand has a more traditional feminin design.
  • April 22, 2017
    MitchellProductions
    Should this be pre-emptive NRLEP upon launch?
  • April 22, 2017
    Getta
    ^^ Your link is more about animals behaving like their opposite gender rather than homosexuality (although what I said is part of queer).

    Iniuria Tails proved me wrong, thanks. (Should be noted though that animal homosexuality is on some levels different from human's)
  • April 22, 2017
    NubianSatyress
    Yes, I picked that link because breaking gender roles has nothing to do with homosexuality.

    If by "going against nature" you meant homosexuality, then you were even further off-base than I thought. I assumed that you meant "going against nature" in terms of gender conformity (which, again, is not the same as sexuality).

    And I'm not sure why the last bit needs to be noted.
  • April 22, 2017
    Getta
    ^ Well, this draft is about same-sex couples so I was thinking about homosexuality when I was talking about "going against nature". Then you proceeded to give me a tangentially related topic.

    I'm not angry though.

    That last thing I noted is taken from the Wikipedia page (or more like what I concluded from reading it)
  • April 22, 2017
    NubianSatyress
    Wait, let's rewind.

    This trope is about the tendency for fictional couples to fit heteronormative gender roles, correct? So one half of the couple behaves in the "butch" manner and the other in the "femme".

    Pichu started this entire debate by stating that it's not about "topping but gender roles". It's not specifically a matter of sexuality. The draft is about gender roles (and conformity) as much as it's about sexuality. That's not tangentially-related to the topic. It's the other half of what the topics'a bout.
  • April 23, 2017
    Getta
    ^ I see what you mean.
  • April 23, 2017
    LondonKdS
    The first novel in Katherine V Forrest's Kate Delafield detective series, Amateur City, has the very Butch Lesbian Kate starting a relationship with Lipstick Lesbian Aimee, and feeling some genuine identity disorientation when she finds herself bottoming to Aimee in bed and enjoying it.
  • April 24, 2017
    Arivne
    • Capitalized the title.
    • Corrected punctuation (periods at the ends of sentences).
    • Examples section
      • Corrected spelling (priness, hot-headedly).
  • April 24, 2017
    Snicka
    It can be mentioned that with male couples, they often imply that the "butch" is on top and the "femme" is on bottom when it comes to sex.
    • Dillon O'Brien from Menage A 3 and Sticky Dilly Buns is a flaming Camp Gay character whose partners are usually masculine, Manly Gay or bisexual characters. These include the promiscuous underwear model Matt and the hunky construction worker Jerzy. It's also made explicit that Dillon "always bottoms".
  • April 28, 2017
    MitchellProductions
    This trope now has enough hats. Should we launch it now?
  • May 2, 2017
    Basara-kun
    It still lacks various exampled not added yet, not sure if the OP would add them or if someone else can do it
  • May 2, 2017
    hszmv1
    Could we change the title to something along the lines of "Which One Of You Is The Woman?" it's gender neutral (you can ask this of a gay male or gay female) and is a very cliched version of what's trying to be troped here as opposed to Butch and Femme, which are mostly gender specific.

    Either way, there's a great comic I need to dig up parodying this mentality by having a Fork and Spoon couple as a pair of Chopsticks "Which one of you is the Spoon?"
  • May 2, 2017
    hszmv1
    Could we change the title to something along the lines of "Which One Of You Is The Woman?" it's gender neutral (you can ask this of a gay male or gay female) and is a very cliched version of what's trying to be troped here as opposed to Butch and Femme, which are mostly gender specific.

    Either way, there's a great comic I need to dig up parodying this mentality by having a Fork and Spoon couple as a pair of Chopsticks "Which one of you is the Spoon?"
  • May 2, 2017
    Getta
    ^ We cannot use phrase-sounding titles.

    I'm thinking of "Top-Bottom Relationship Dichotomy".
  • May 2, 2017
    Monolaf317
    ^In favor of that name.
  • May 2, 2017
    NubianSatyress
    I think "So which of you is the man and the woman?" should be the page quote, regardless of what we name it.
  • May 3, 2017
    Snicka
    ^^^ My problem with "Relationship Dichotomy" is that it sounds very scientific, whereas this wiki usually has more casual-sounding trope names.
  • May 3, 2017
    Basara-kun
    Video Games:

    Also, what about Manly Elfeminate Couple as the possible name??
  • May 3, 2017
    Getta
    ^ "Elfewminate"? o.O

    ^^ If casual-sounding means making it too complicated, then I'll take the scientific term any day. It can describe the topic in less words.
  • May 3, 2017
    Bisected8
    I see this cartoon has already been mentioned

    It might be a good page image, if the source can be credited.
  • May 4, 2017
    Bisected8
    ^^^ Also, using Elfeminate in the name here makes no sense.
  • May 4, 2017
    hszmv1
    What about Main/Hetero-Homosexual Relationship?

    Should also point out that this doesn't always happen in real life (there is Truth In Television, but most gay men are looking for a partner who is masculine and most gay women are looking for a feminine partner. Some bisexuals are attracted to both masculine men and feminine women but not a feminine man or a masculine woman). That's not to say that there aren't gay couples that have this dynamic, but the assumption this is norm is now something of a discredited trope.

    Also, this is more for discussion: Could it be argued that this trope might be a case of Fair For Its Day in some cases (i.e. those that blatantly play up this dynamic, but with the intention of showing Not So Different from a straight couple)?

    • In Will And Grace, Will is the manly man to Jack's feminine man. Behind the scenes, the actor who played Will won the part over an actual gay man who was perceived as too manly to be a convincing gay man.
  • May 4, 2017
    NubianSatyress
    "What about Main/Hetero-Homosexual Relationship?"

    It's non-indicative. I get what you're going for (a homosexual relationship with hetero overtones) but it SOUNDS like a variation on Settled For Gay.
  • May 4, 2017
    Getta
    Maybe "Top-Bottom Same-Sex Couple"? With "Butch and Femme" and "Bear and Twink" as redirects.
  • May 5, 2017
    NightShade96
    Literature
  • May 19, 2017
    hszmv1
    "Maybe "Top-Bottom Same-Sex Couple"? With "Butch and Femme" and "Bear and Twink" as redirects."

    I think that this is going to get a lot of misunderstanding that this trope is about a depiction of sex... which it isn't... and implies that the masculine/feminine dynamic corresponds to the role... which it doesn't.

    Could try "All Couples have Gender Roles", which not only covers same sex parings and is gender neutral, but would also allow for Hetero-Couples that do not follow traditional gender roles (Such as Stay At Home Dad). Could also be "Manly Gay and Feminine Gay" or something to that effect.

    Should also mention that some of these might be unintentional on the writers part. Write What You Know might bleed the writer's experience with marriage into the script. If you wanted to do, say, a Sitcom Trope, most of the ones about relationships work with a male-female dynamic. If the couple is gay, even if both partners are manly or feminine, one will be shoehorned into a role to fit a dynamic.
  • May 19, 2017
    Pichu-kun
    ^ I don't like the name relating to top/bottom. The trope isn't about who tops and bottoms, though often time it's believed the more masculine partner is automatically the top.
  • June 24, 2017
    Getta
    So are we okay with Butch And Femme Couple? I don't mind but I think we could do better.
  • June 24, 2017
    Twiddler
    Masc and Fem Couple?
  • June 26, 2017
    Snicka
    ^^^ The misconception about the masculine one being top and the feminine one being bottom should still be mentioned in the description.
  • June 26, 2017
    Getta
    ^ I don't think it's a "misconception" so much as "deliberate deviation". Masculine ones has always been the top, and the feminine one bottom, until... some decades ago.

    "Sapience" truly is a dangerous beast after all...
  • June 26, 2017
    lakingsif
    Still looking for a better name.
  • June 26, 2017
    Pichu-kun
    ^ I think the name is fine as is. "Butch" and "femme" are lgbtq terms already.
  • June 26, 2017
    lakingsif
    ^they're very well defined terms, much more specific than this trope uses. Lesbian culture won't be happy.
  • June 26, 2017
    Snicka
    According to The Other Wiki, "A masculine person of any gender can be described as butch, even though it is more common to use the term towards females with more masculine traits." So it is not limited to lesbians. And I am not aware of any more gender-neutral synonyms.
  • June 26, 2017
    lakingsif
    You could just use masculine and feminine. Butch is gender neutral, but femme definitely isn't — and using them both together also infers a lesbian couple.
  • June 26, 2017
    Twiddler
    I see masc used in the LGBTQ community, and femme used for gay guys. 'Fem' as an alternative spelling.

    I've only seen 'butch' used for women.
  • June 26, 2017
    Getta
    Masculine And Feminine Homo Couple is the clearest I can make.
  • June 27, 2017
    Snicka
    ^ Shouldn't it be "Gay Couple" rather than "Homo Couple" though? "Gay" is preferred term over "homosexual" and especially over "homo" (and does not exclusively refer to gay males).
  • June 27, 2017
    LondonKdS
  • June 27, 2017
    lakingsif
    ^^^ femme and fem are different things. With butch, as a plain adjective then it's applied to anyone sort of tough and muscly, but within the LGBT+ community then, yeh, only lesbians.
  • June 27, 2017
    Getta
    ^^^ I choose "homo" because it covers lesbians as well. Gay is exclusively guys.
  • June 27, 2017
    lakingsif
    ^ except gay is often used to refer to the whole LGBT spectrum, and homo is considered offensive.
  • June 27, 2017
    Snicka
  • June 27, 2017
    hszmv1
    ^ I still like the idea of All Couples Have Gender Roles as there are non-traditional gender dynamics in even straight couples. Some straight men do enjoy being in the submissive role to their more dominant straight female partner. Probably want to make two catagories that um... play this straight (should defined that this would be LGBT couples, as straight varients are People Sit On Chairs) and then an aversion, which would be for non-traditional straight couples and LGBT couples that include two effeminiant men or two butch lesbians.

    Alternatively you could just do LGBT Couples Have Gender Roles and then list the distinct terms for men and women and explain the crux of the problem of having a snappier name is that many of the terms in and of themselves are gender exclusive.

    Ultimately, I think this trope is about trying to shoehorn individuals within a couple into a gender role for the sake of a familiar male/female dynamic which might be easier to write.
  • June 27, 2017
    Getta
    ^ that sounds too broad and deviating from this draft's focus tbh.
  • August 2, 2017
    meticulousMorology
  • August 2, 2017
    WaterBlap
    "Gay is exclusively guys." Except "gay" is just another word for "homosexual" and as such is not exclusive to any gender? "Lesbian" is exclusive to gay women, but "gay" isn't exclusive to gay men. And I can also confirm that "homo" is typically meant disparagingly.
  • August 3, 2017
    Basara-kun
    What about LGBT Masculine and Femenine Couple?? Then you can broad both sexes and the meaning will be the same as it now
  • August 3, 2017
    KiwiMaxim
    Emulate The Aesthetics Of Straight? "Emulate" might sound too deliberate, but it neither brings attention to the same-sex couples genders nor their sexualities (as not everyone in a same-sex relationship is necessarily homosexual.) Also, rhymes, sort of.

    Btw in my experience, it tends to be either "gay men and women" or "gays and lesbians", so "gay" referring to men is usually in the context and the connotation. Otherwise, gay men have no single-word term for themselves, and terminology tends to be a big deal in LGBT discussion.

    Also, this was brought up earlier, but are we going for an NRLEP angle at launch?
  • August 3, 2017
    meticulousMorology
    If you want to get picky about terminology (which everyone kind of has already), the term 'LGBT couple' could refer to a number of different 'types' of pairings that don't involve two members of the same gender. The title could use the word 'gay' (as in, for example, Masculine And Feminine Gay Couple) and also have Masculine And Feminine Lesbian Couple as a redirect.
  • August 3, 2017
    TrueShadow1
    I think you guys are way too caught up in terminologies and end up making names that are too long and unclear.

    "Butch and Femme" is fine as it is. Tropes Are Flexible. If you really want to be inclusive, just add a redirect of whatever the male equivalents of "butch" and "femme".

    Or let's just make a crowner. This discussion over the name has gone on too long.
  • August 4, 2017
    Snicka
    I agree, we can call it "butch and femme" and then explain in the introduction that "Although the words "butch" and "femme" usually refer to lesbian couples, this trope covers any kind of LGBT couple with a "masculine" and "feminine" member."
  • August 4, 2017
    Snicka
    Also, why isn't the example from A Very Potter Musical added? Is it because Quirrell is not "feminine" enough?
  • August 4, 2017
    meticulousMorology
    There should be a clear dichotomy between the feminine and masculine partner, which Quirrell and Voldemort didn't really have. If you add every single instance of one partner being slightly more feminine/masculine than the other, this trope would include every same-sex couple in existence.
  • August 4, 2017
    lakingsif
    ^^^^ Butch and Femme isn't fine as it is, perhaps you don't much about queer culture, but lesbians are not going to be happy. They got a t-shirt with the word 'femme' on it removed from sale at Top Shop, to give you an idea of how serious it's taken. Masc and Fem could do, at a push.
  • August 4, 2017
    kjnoren
    From my limited reading, the use of Butch and Femme in gay circles is well established, but the use of Femme is currently under discussion due to radical feminism and changes in the queer community. As used in the trope, however, I believe Butch and Femme are used in their original well-established meanings. But I'd really like to hear from people familiar with and active in the queer community on what they think on the trope name, and how to describe it properly.

    One idea of a trope name without using Butch of Femme could be Hetero Coded Gay Couple.
  • August 4, 2017
    lakingsif
    ^ there are many comments above from queer tropers who only came here to say 'please change the name'. I like that name, or the previous All Couple Have Gender Roles suggestion.
  • August 5, 2017
    kjnoren
    ^ I don't read that in the discussion at all, except possibly from you. The main point against Butch And Femme Couple that I have seen is that to some it is coded as being specific to lesbians. It's not that to me, but I can understand that objection.

    All Couples Have Gender Roles is a poor name, because it fails to address exactly which gender roles are in use, or that the trope applies to specifically homosexual couples.

    The description and laconic are also in need of improvement. Parts of it feels off-point and unfocused, and then it goes off into a tangent on other externally enforced gender roles on same-sex couples.

    Here's a stab at a revised description, but parts of it likely should be expanded, especially how it stereotypes homosexual relations.
    A gay or lesbian couple where one partner is coded male ("butch") and one is coded female ("femme"), usually with the implied understanding that the couple behaves and acts just as a stereotypical heterosexual couple.

    In effect, this is a heteronormative reading of a homosexual relation, based on the assumption that couples are made up of one man and one woman. Exactly how this is coded can vary, but it can include clothing, mannerisms, speech patterns, and occupations.

    Compare Tomboy And Girly Girl and Sensitive Guy And Manly Man. Also see uke and seme for Japanese tropes heavily associated with this concept.

    BTW, from reading the tropes, we might be missing a trope for gay men. Camp Gay has an exaggerated and exhibitionistic side, that is not necessary for a gay man to be coded female, and in part goes against it.
  • August 5, 2017
    TrueShadow1
    ^^ Is there any particular reason why these words are considered offensive? I scrolled through the comments and I see no "queer tropers asking to change the name", only that "butch and femme" are female-specific, which as I addressed before, Tropes Are Flexible.
  • August 5, 2017
    lakingsif
    ^ They're very defined terms within the queer community, so they make the title non-indicative, and some people may not like them being used wrongly. There's also maybe N Word Privileges? I'm not sure about that, but I know lesbians who are happy to call themselves and each other butch, dyke, but don't like other people using them (and whilst I'm fairly certain that "angry internet lesbians" is mostly myth, I'd rather not test that), plus the above mentioned Top Shop incident.
  • August 5, 2017
    TrueShadow1
    Your concern IMO veers a bit nto Political Correctness Gone Mad territory. Also you can't say those terms are very defined without telling the definition. Besides, we've had the trope Butch Lesbian since forever and I don't remember any troubles from lesbian culture.

    Are "Masc" and "Fem" actual terms?
  • August 6, 2017
    lakingsif
    ^ Butch Lesbian is accurate — using butch when you mean masculine is different, and especially when this is about gay couples it's definitely wrong. It's like ascribing a specific term that some lesbians use for self-identification to anyone gay who dresses/acts tough.

    Masc and Fem as in short for masculine and feminine.
  • August 6, 2017
    meticulousMorology
    Why not just leave it as is unless somebody actually comes out and says that they're personally offended by it, which nobody's done so far, rather than speculating about who might be bothered?
  • August 6, 2017
    Synchronicity
    See also Gay Guy Seeks Most Popular Jock, where the gay guy is less conventionally masculine than the popular athlete.
  • September 7, 2017
    Larkmarn
    I like Masculine And Feminine Gay Couple. Because the current title isn't great, since it doesn't include the same-sex thing which is a pretty big part of the trope, and it links it to Masculine Girl Feminine Guy.

  • September 8, 2017
    Basara-kun
    Comic Books:
    • If well she isn't see so much as butch, ex-detective Renee Montoya, also known as The Question II, had a couple in the time she was Gotham City detective in which both were seen as butch and femme, respectively. Later as The Question, she worked with Kate Kane aka Batwoman as a vigilante team, both also having an affair and usually seen as a couple for the fans.
  • October 7, 2017
    Bisected8
  • October 19, 2017
    Twiddler
    Should mention something about Truth In Television. Maybe make some kind of distinction between use of this trope in Queer Media and use of it otherwise? The former is more often Write What You Know (though could just be for reasons as simple as aesthetics), the latter is more about how gay people are seen by the rest of the public (and thus portrayed in media). The description gives the impression it's just straight people writing this trope, or that it originated with them (that line about "misconceptions").
  • November 11, 2017
    Bisected8
    I'd say it's a misconception insofar as it's considered a standard. There are certainly same sex couples who fall into a masculine/feminine dynamic, but there's no specific rhyme or reason to it, (beyond Has A Type).

    N.B. That while lesbian culture has butches and femmes, not all lesbians identify as butch or femme and that they're specific styles, not just "masculine lesbian" and "feminine lesbian" or some sort of analogue for forming heterosexual couples.
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