Created By: MsCC93January 7, 2013 Last Edited By: MsCC93January 16, 2013
Nuked

VOID

VOID

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VOID
Community Feedback Replies: 27
  • January 7, 2013
    MagBas
    Said deletions have a curious history: The definition was actually voted to include non-villains in the Trope Repair Shop thread but lu127 posted the following:

    "No, what really needs to be done is ignore this crowner, because the idea is only a gate for people to complain about characters they don't like not getting adequate comeback.

    Karma Houdini can just stay as applying to villanis. I'll remove the non-villainous examples."...

    ...and closed the thread. This was their edit in Wed 19 Dec.

    My edit reason when i started the deletions was, exactly:

    "Well, lu127 said to ignore the crowner and considering that they closed the thread, it definitively is official. Removing non-villains."
  • January 7, 2013
    MsCC93
    What???^^^
  • January 7, 2013
    DRCEQ
    See I Did What I Had To Do when the hero commits offenses out of necessity to keep on their goal or if they are being coerced.
  • January 7, 2013
    MsCC93
    Not really...it applies to anyone who isn't a villain who acts bad and gets away with it. For example, there's Meg from Family Guy. In the episode "The Hand That rocks The Wheelchair," she gets Bonnie arrested and receives no comeuppance for it.
  • January 7, 2013
    122122
    Sarah and Kevin from Ed Edd N Eddy, not heroes per se, usually get away with being nasty to the Eds.
  • January 7, 2013
    bulmabriefs144
    How is this not Karma Houdini?
  • January 7, 2013
    MsCC93
    That's the point of this. It's because the examples of non-villains are getting deleted and Karma Houdini only applies to villains.
  • January 7, 2013
    Thecommander236
  • January 7, 2013
    MsCC93
    Umm not really...it's because non-villain examples are being removed from the Karma Houdini page and I just want to move the non-villainous examples here.
  • January 7, 2013
    bulmabriefs144
    Karmic Protection covers villains and heroes. By extension, we just need to write a few lines of text into Karma Houdini, and don't need this.
  • January 7, 2013
    DRCEQ
    Yeah. No reason why we can't just change Karma Houdini to not be villain exclusive...
  • January 7, 2013
    MagBas
    ...outside the objection of lu127 when closed the Trope Repair Shop thread.
  • January 7, 2013
    DRCEQ
    Is he a moderator who has significant pull on the forums? If he's just another one of us, then he has no official ruling.
  • January 7, 2013
    Psi001
    I could see many a Disproportionate Retribution example falling into this. Bugs Bunny for example often got away with taking his vendetta on a Harmless Villain to rather overboard measures, though the odd time he was the instigator he was the Butt Monkey suffering merciless abuse.

    Hero Antagonists are prone to this sort of behaviour, if only to give the general vibe they're the hero though also not meant to be rootable.
  • January 7, 2013
    MagBas
    ^^Well, he is a moderator. Following Administrivia.Know The Staff, he: "Can lock wiki pages, flag or unflag wiki pages as "unsafe", apply and lift edit bans and forum bans, lock, move or delete forum threads, hook, unhook and close crowners, edit or thump other users' forum posts and delete reviews and comments on reviews"
  • January 7, 2013
    DRCEQ
    Oh. Ok then.
  • January 7, 2013
    immortalfrieza
    Even moderators can still be wrong. It doesn't make any sense whatsoever that Karma Houdini can't apply to both heroes, villains, and anyone in between.
  • January 8, 2013
    Thecommander236
    Implying that we need a separate trope for heroes implies we also need a separate trope for Neutral characters as well. Implying that we need three tropes all with the same basic idea implies we need a Super Trope. I think this is just silly. Then there's the question of where Villian Protagonists and Hero Antagonists fall into the trope. As some would say, "Hero" implies hero while others will think "protagonist" implies hero. It's gets worse because Villian Protagonist and Hero Antagonist can be a YMMV because it is Blackand Grey Morality and Greyand Gray Morality.

    I sent him a link sending him here and told him what the argument was about. Hopefully he will come here and read this so we can deal with the problem now instead of later.
  • January 8, 2013
    lu127
    Karma Houdini applied to non-villainous characters so far has only been whining about them not getting enough of a punishment because the audience wasn't happy with them.

    Any genuine examples of Karma Houdini that are heroic? Code Geass's Villeta and Ohgi are a prime example of being shoehorned into Karma Houdini despite them not being the trope.

    Also, getting away with being nasty isn't a Karma Houdini. You have to do something actually serious to be it. Being a jerk and not getting called out is not a Karma Houdini. Being nasty is not it.

    A Villain Protagonist or an Anti Hero at the further ends of the scale can be Houdinis, since they edge into villainous territory.
  • January 8, 2013
    shimaspawn
    Karma Houdini is currently suffering from being 90% complaining about minor things, or complaining that someone's fate didn't get enough torture porn. People are treating it as YMMV when it's not. The "heroic" examples are the biggest examples of this and tend to be entirely complaining about minor things. That's why they keep getting deleted. Even if we expanded the trope they wouldn't fit.

    Looking at deleted "heroic" examples I see:

    • Comedic Sociopathy which has it's own trope.
    • Complaining about Slapstick.
    • Complaining that a character is mean to another character.
    • Complaining that a character does X that a troper disapproves of.
    • X character was mean to character Y who a troper likes.

    None of these things should be on Karma Houdini.
  • January 8, 2013
    Fighteer
    Also, the audience's opinion of whether a character received an appropriate comeuppance is so subjective as to be worthless. Even if this were a trope, it could only count if it's specifically an In Universe phenomenon; that is, characters in the story observe that the character in question didn't get what they deserved.

    Opening it up to fan opinions is license to have an entry for every character in every work ever. No thanks.
  • January 8, 2013
    Thecommander236
    I believe I need an example of this. I feel like there is some perspective we are missing here.
  • January 8, 2013
    azul120
    Ohgi fell into Anti Hero territory near the end (he should have been accused of mutiny and treason; was partly responsible for the final schism near the end; and did little if not nothing to repent or compensate), and Villetta was never heroic on her own merits, was willing to do whatever to advance herself to nobility, and was only saved because of Ohgi. And even then she practically lied about Lelouch.

    Agreed that KH could very well be a YMMV trope though.
  • January 10, 2013
    Thecommander236
    We doing this one or not?
  • January 16, 2013
    MsCC93
    No we aren't
  • January 16, 2013
    Thecommander236
    I can see that. Why not just hit the discard button then?
  • January 16, 2013
    Stratadrake
    Less talk more action.

Three days must pass before this YKTTW is Launchworthy or Discardable