Created By: VioletOrange on January 12, 2012 Last Edited By: ilniaj on August 21, 2013

Paper Ram

He can do a lot of damage, he is very fast, but can't take a hit

Name Space:
Main
Page Type:
Trope
Being fast is cool, but hardly sufficient in many settings to make a difference. Being able to make a lot of damage is great but not so much if you are a sitting duck while doing so. Enter the Paper Ram, who trades his health for damage and speed.
This particular build of the Offense / Defense / Speed triangle come in three flavors:

  • The Dodger, who can use their speed to dodge enemy attack or use Hit-and-Run Tactics against enemies which are slower than them and have a closer reach. They are very good for destroying a large number of enemies but need to be take care of if you want them to survive a fight. Thus, a good number of player characters in single player games end up like this, being able to destroy a large number of opponents at the expense of still being at the mercy of the weakest opponent should they make a mistake.
  • The Charger, who will use his speed and attack to crush their opponnent before they can react. If their opponent can react, they are dead, if not, they win the battle.
  • The Raider, who can't dodge enemy attacks or prevent a severe counter attack and thus will die very quickly against any group of enemies. His strategy will be to use his speed to prevent others from closeing in on him and to make powerful blow on a key target (such as the Medic or in some RTS, buildings), then retreat to avoid the counterattack.

Contrast Stone Wall who is slow, but can take tons of hits. Compare with Glass Cannon, Mighty Glacier, Fragile Speedster, Lightning Bruiser, and Jack-of-All-Stats.


Examples:

Anime
  • Fate's upgrade in MagicalGirlLyricalNanohaAs trades some resilience for speed, while remaining a Person of Mass Destruction. While she has some ranged attacks, she seems to prefer close combat in her upgraded stance.
  • Elite Claymore tends to be this, since they can die if they receive a blow in the wrong place. The most powerful monster of the series is this trope Up to Eleven compared to the monster of the same category (who are more like a Lightning Bruiser) : she can die in one good hit, but is very fast and can OneHitKill almost anything.
  • In Hokuto Musou Kenshiro is this at first, and upgraded later to a full Lightning Bruiser.

Literature

Tabletop Games
  • High Elf heavy cavalry (Silver Helms and Dragon Princes) in Warhammer Fantasy. Lightning quick and can deliver tremendous blow - almost as efficient as the Bretonnian knights. Not as durable, though, but have better initiative in combat.
  • Eldar and Dark Eldar tend toward this in Warhammer 40K, the latter more than the former
  • In Pathfinder, the Monk class fits this. Monks get the fast movement ability, which increases their speed, and can deliver a Flurry of Blows, which allows them to make several additional attacks whenever they make a full attack action. However, as a cost, they are forbidden from wearing any armor or using shields, which means that it's fairly easy to hit them. Further, they are easily incapacitated after a few blows.
  • Speedsters in the Hero System can approach this. Obviously they are built for speed, but a high Dex score and Skill Levels in dodging can make them very difficult to hit, and the rules for adding velocity to melee damage mean that a speedster can, if he doesn't mind having a poor chance to hit, land a punch on somebody while going fast enough to circumnavigate the globe in a single combat phase.

Video Games
  • Pokémon brought us so many, where do we start?
    • Charizard from Generation I had a good speed stat of 100, and a Special attack stat just ahead, but in terms of 3-stage evolutions, its defenses are nothing to write home about.
    • Typhlosion replicates Charizard's BST.
    • Archeops from Generation V has absurdly high physical attack, great special attack [[hottip:*:Its second best stat at 112]], and speed right behind its Sp. Atk. However, its defenses are bad, and if you cripple it to half health...
    • Haxorus from Gen V. Although it's a bit slower than Charizard, its physical attack stat is a whopping 147, and its speed is also good, but its defenses aren't that great.
    • Sigilyph from the same generation as Archeops and Haxorus. It retains Haxorus's good speed, and has Special attack just ahead, but while its defenses are decent, its [HP] stat isn't something to write home about. And then Cosmic Power kicks in...
    • Gengar. It's very fast, and its best stat is Sp. Attack, but its defenses... Not so much.
    • Alakazam. It has extremely high speed, and that's its second best stat. It once had the highest special attack stat of all non-legendary Pokémon period [[hottip:*:In Generations 1-3, it was untied, and it was tied with Porygon-Z in Generation 4. Generation 5 brought us two non-legendaries with higher Sp. Attack power: Chandelure and Zen Darmanitan]].
    • Deoxys is this trope, so long as it isn't in Defense or speed forms. Normal and Attack forms both have ridiculously high speed, at 150, and while Normal form has matching attack stats, Attack form's stats are even higher. Normal can't take a hit, and Attack Form's got defenses so bad, it's tied with Pokémon such as Magikarp and Caterpie for the worst Special Defense stat out of any Pokémon.
  • Mario is the faster and deadlier one in the Mario and Luigi games. However, he's more frail in comparison to Luigi.
  • Scout from Team Fortress 2 may seem like a Fragile Speedster at first, but his scatter gun does over 100 damage point-blank.
  • Wild ARMs 1 has Jack Van Burace. He was likely supposed to be the Fragile Speedster, especially considering his "Accelerator" ability that allowed him to act first in the turn, but in practice, his Fast Draw skills could just about match Mighty Glacier Rudy's damage output. In Alter Code F, his strength was toned down considerably to emphasize Rudy's, but obtaining all his Fast Draw skills boosts his stats back up to "just about as powerful as Rudy" level.
    • Note that he has extremely limited MP, although there were workarounds in both the original and the remake.
  • Sonic the Hedgehog, pre-Unleashed [[hottip:*:His speed is obvious, he's a One-Hit-Point Wonder, and his offense refers to his Robot-destroying ability]]. In other adaptation, he tends to be a Lightning Bruiser.
  • Planes are often this in videogames which is Truth in Television
    • In Ground Control 1, they go down if an Anti-Air unit can have some good shot. However, they can destroy a full army without Anti-Air very very quickly.
    • in Red Alert, planes are more specialized but can still ravage any force which doesn't have an AA unit.
  • In Dawn of War, the Tau faction minus the Kroots units and Eldar vehicle all have high speed, high damage output and very poor resilience, which means that knowing how to micromanage them is essential to win. In the sequel, the entire Eldar faction save one Mighty Glacier unit is this.
  • In Diablo, Titan Quest and almost every other hack and slash, the Player Character tends toward this at a high level : they are faster than most monsters since the beginning, they have learned to cause a lot of damage but they are often very vulnerable and die after a few hit.
    • In the first Sacred, the elf not only can go really fast, but her bow shoots hundreds of arrows per minute.
  • In theory, Akuma from Street Fighter in every playable appearance, but they always give him more cannon and speed than glass. He's always basically at least B+-tier or above.
  • In Heroes Of Might And Magic V, the blood maiden/fury can travel to 3/4 of the map, hurt a lot and then come back where she starts (and in the case of the blood fury, without being struck back). However, she has low health and defense and is the favorite target of PC-controlled creatures, which make her lifespan quite short.
  • In the Mount & Blade expansion, any light cavalry with guns qualify, being fast and deadly.

Community Feedback Replies: 95
  • January 12, 2012
    Deadbeatloser22

  • January 12, 2012
    Deadbeatloser22

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    Deadbeatloser22

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    Deadbeatloser22
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    Deadbeatloser22

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    Deadbeatloser22

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    Deadbeatloser22

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    Deadbeatloser22

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    Deadbeatloser22

  • January 15, 2012
    Deadbeatloser22

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    Deadbeatloser22

  • January 16, 2012
    Deadbeatloser22

  • January 20, 2012
    lu127

  • January 31, 2012
    lu127

  • February 2, 2012
    lu127

  • February 2, 2012
    lu127

  • February 2, 2012
    lu127

  • February 2, 2012
    VioletOrange
    I specified the Eldar vehicle. Their infantry are quite good on the health department, and some of them are even quite hard to kill. And you are right, I forget the Tau. I correct the Team Fortress 2 example.
  • February 18, 2012
    MarqFJA
    @Stratadrake: " In many settings, the Fragile Speedster must have a high offensive potential to be a viable fighter. Defense only gets you so far.... "

    There's a difference between having a high raw attack power and having a high rate of damage per unit-time. Fragile Speedsters typically fall under the latter.
  • February 26, 2012
    TBeholder
    well, yeah, they overlap. But this won't help much - combinations of those basic types can be subjected to infinite reduction. Of course, we could dispense with the sloppiness of these archetypes and approach this formally. E.g. agree on strict (speed, attack, defence) x (low, mediocre, high) grid, which gives us 9 subsets... with 12 blurred borders of which we'll have to agree next. =]
  • February 27, 2012
    Kinkajou
    A lot of sweeper-class Pokemon fit this bill - having high Attack or Special Attack and Speed, but also having low HP, Defense, and Special Defense. Gengar and Alakazam are examples.

  • February 27, 2012
    VioletOrange
    No. Apart from this trope, there is only one which is missing (High Defense, High Speed, low Offense). All of them are quite easy to separate from one another, and with the exception of the one missing, all of them have a lot of examples.

  • April 12, 2012
    judasmartel
    How about making a new trope called Glass Ninja for characters with high attack and speed but low defense, then? That way, we can separate it from Glass Cannon, characters with high attack but low speed AND defense.
  • April 13, 2012
    ScanVisor
    Also Zero in both Tatsunoko Vs Capcom and both of the Marvel Vs Capcom 3 games. Infamous for being able to confirm 1 million damage (the health of the highest character is 1,250,000) off of almost any single hit, and he's fast as all get out.
  • April 26, 2012
    VioletOrange
    No stable internet connection for the near future, so this is Up For Grabs.

    Glass Ninja is a bad term, Ninja convey Stealth but not really lack pf durability. And I prefer to make it a subtrope to keep Glass Cannon his preexisting definition, which is about people with High Attack and low defense.

    For the last comment, could you precise if he has low health too ?
  • April 26, 2012
    ShanghaiSlave
    Name suggestion:

    Weakly Speedy Artillery? Fast but/'n Fragile Cannon?

    examples:

    got none, but i'm sure i've encountered these at least once.
  • June 8, 2012
    VioletOrange
  • June 8, 2012
    Shrikesnest
  • June 9, 2012
    VioletOrange
    From the description of this trope : Compare to Fragile Speedster (which is only about speed) and Lightning Bruiser(which is also durable), and Mighty Glacier which has sacrificed speed for offense and defense.

  • June 9, 2012
    troacctid
    We don't really need this.
  • June 10, 2012
    JustaUsername
    The fact that Lightning Bruiser has quite a few high speed and attack but low defence people occupying the page says otherwise. This is a trope and it's existence will help keep the Lightning Bruiser trope clean.
  • June 10, 2012
    VioletOrange
    And it will correct some confusion that I explained here (first post) and in two TRS (confusion that was proved to exist in those two TRS). Apart from this argument (which isn't present here by the way, do you have something else or should I remove the Tropeworthy tag ?

  • June 11, 2012
    nameheregrrer
    Trope looks good to me. The classic fragile speedster is combat viable thanks to getting off many weak attacks in a short timeframe.

    • Fire Emblem Swordmasters can become this trope fairly easily. Although they typically have low Strength-subject to the RNG- they also have an elevated crit rate, potentially even 100% in the right circumstances. This can allow them to instantly kill most enemies, but they depend heavily on dodging enemy attacks due to low defense and HP. Berserkers have considerably higher base damage and are also relatively quick. They have higher HP but their low defense gives them limited survivability.
  • June 16, 2012
    rodneyAnonymous
    We don't need this.

    It would be making the trope definitions unnecessarily rigid, and implicitly changing the definition of Fragile Speedster and Glass Cannon (by suggesting that a hard-hitting FS or a fast GC is something different than those tropes, which is not true).

    These are not balanced with (or analogous to):

    • Mighty Glacier... ^offense / ^defense / vspeed (defined by three attributes)
    • Lightning Bruiser... ^offense / ^defense / ^speed (defined by three attributes)

    The point of these divisions is not to have a separate trope for every possible combination of attributes. That is impossible, anyway, because you could always consider another attribute. (Range, say.) They are common archetypes. They are broad. Variations can be elaborated on in an existing page. For instance, the above Titan Quest example ("PC tend toward this at high level : they are faster than most monster since the beginning, they have learned to make a lot of damage but they are often very vulnerable and die after a few hit") is either a Glass Cannon that is fast, or a Fragile Speedster that hits hard. Or both. Combining two tropes does not make a third trope.
  • June 17, 2012
    VioletOrange
    From the first comment:

    This trope was created for two reasons: the first one is to correct a minor problem of Glass Cannon (the description isn't about speed, but the term cannon carries the idea of something slow). The second is to allow Fragile Speedster to be purely about speed, fragility and no remarkable firepower (which he was originally, but the lack of this trope make an extension of his definition necessary).

    If you read the first TRS on Lightning Bruiser, you will see that the lack of this trope created problem. When you see someone who is fast and can do a lot of damage, you don't think Fragile Speedster because the first thing you remark is his firepower. Unfortunately, the name Glass Cannon doesn't carry the idea of speed. Lightning Bruiser, on the other hand, does (and doesn't carry the idea of something which has high defense), and thus people who want to put character that are fast and have great attack use Lightning Bruiser (watch this conversation for an example, and the Claymore character page will provide you with another one).

    On another note, Fragile Speedster is supposed to contrast Mighty Glacier, so of course it is balanced with it (it's in its definition). And Stone Wall is balanced with Mighty Glacier in the latter definition, and Glass Cannon is supposed to contrast Mighty Glacier in its definition. Apart from that and the fact that all of these trope are in the same list under Competitive Balance, they are indeed not supposed to be balanced with each other. Yet, they unsurprisingly are.

    Since I already answered this comment before, I took the liberty of removing the tropeworthy tag.
  • June 17, 2012
    rodneyAnonymous
    "...Fragile Speedster is supposed to contrast Mighty Glacier..."

    MG used to be only two attributes, high defense and low speed, opposite of FS; no comment on offense. That is an artifact.

    You're trying to impose a system that doesn't fit. Anything could be shoehorned into whatever framework. But it's unnecessary overcategorization. (And making existing trope definitions more rigid/narrow is inherently costly, for no apparent gain, except the subjective opinion that this scheme is better than that one.)
  • June 18, 2012
    VioletOrange
    It's exactly the opposite (FS used to be about high speed, low damage, low defense whereas MG was always(or at least for a longer time than the redefinition of FS) about high offense, high defense and low speed).

    And making this scheme should eliminate the quite common confusion of forgetting the High health part of Lightning Bruiser (which still exist), will make the picture of GC and FS better and will remove the confusion caused by the name of GC(a cannon is generally very slow, so a GC can be think as something that is slow, fragile and very damaging). And since you participate in both TRS about Lightning Bruiser, you have got plenty of example of people making these confusions.

    And even with this subtrope, there is largely enough freedom and flexibility for FS and GC.
  • June 18, 2012
    lu127
    Sorry for the blanked posts--a vandal hit this YKTTW.
  • June 18, 2012
    VioletOrange
    You are not responsible for the act of idiots, especially when you actively work to prevent them without compensation.

    Edit. I rework the description. Is it good now ?
  • June 20, 2012
    NineThePuma
    Just to quote the Glass Cannon page:

    Glass Cannons often overlap with the Fragile Speedster; characters of that type, who put out high damage and dodge most incoming attacks, but go down quickly if they do get hit, are sometimes called "Glass Ninja."

    So it looks like this trope (which is splitting off that concept into its own) should at the very least have Glass Ninja as a redirect.
  • June 20, 2012
    rodneyAnonymous
    Glass Ninja is already a redirect for Glass Cannon.
  • June 21, 2012
    NineThePuma
    Redirects can be removed.
  • June 21, 2012
    VioletOrange
    Good point. I will add this as a pro for Glass Ninja
  • June 21, 2012
    DarkConfidant
    In Pathfinder, the Monk class fits this. Monks get the fast movement ability, which increases their speed, and have Flurry of Blows, which allows them to make several additional attacks whenever they make a full attack action. However, as a cost, they are forbidden from wearing any armor or using shields, which means that it's fairly easy to hit them. Further, they are easily incapacitated after a few blows.
  • June 21, 2012
    rodneyAnonymous
    Ugh of course I didn't mean to imply they can't be (you mean "changed" I imagine?). Just more "this isn't necessary".
  • June 29, 2012
    planswalker
    I'm not seeing how this is a trope. FS and GC already cover this. You have to arbitrarily re-define those two in order to make room for this one, and there is no cause for it. This trope is highly unnecessary.
  • June 29, 2012
    kjnoren
    Fragile bruiser is an oxymoron. The word bruiser is soon as overloaded and misused here as badass.
  • July 3, 2012
    VioletOrange
    @ planswalker, // At the risk of sounding rude, I already answered your point numerous time and don't feel like doing it again. I would really like for people to answer my argument rather than repeating stupidly the same thing.

    @ kjnoren, Going by french english dictionary (but I admit this isn't perfect), not really. It only means you bruise, which says nothing about your resilience. However, going by popularity, it seems like there are no good name so suggestion for it are more than welcome

  • July 3, 2012
    kjnoren
  • July 5, 2012
    VioletOrange
    I add this as a con for the actual name. Do you know a word which could replace bruiser ?
  • July 5, 2012
    planswalker
    @Violent Orange: well, congrats, you did manage to be rude. However, I still stand by my statement that you're wanting to re-define things so a new trope can be squeezed in.
  • July 5, 2012
    piscula
    The fact that a character can clearly be a FS and a GC at the same time and that would be this trope, would be a clear reason why we don't need it here. GC can be fast, since there is nothing in their description saying they have to be slow, in fact there is a part saying they may or may not be fast. Similarly, the FS says that a character may or may not have attack power and still fit in the FS category.

    This is going to require another level of complexity and take unnecessary time and effort to decide who gets to stay with their current labeling and who has to be moved.

    I vote this is The Same But More Specific of both GC and FS and therefore not worthy of being an individual trope. Maybe a redirect so that Lightning Bruiser leads to FS or something.
  • July 5, 2012
    VioletOrange
    @ planswalker,

    Is a Mighty Glacier a unit which is slow, does good attack and defense and looks big ? If you think that it isn't, that it is just a unit which is slow, does good attack and defense despite the existence of Glacier Waif, then why would the existence of this trope change the meaning of Glass Cannon and Fragile Speedster ?

    @ Piscula,

    If it is difficult to distinguish if a unit is fast or not, does a lot of damage or not, has a lot of health or not, then why do we have any of the competitive balance trope ? if you can do it, then knowing if a unit is this trope or not is child's play(is it fast ? yes. Is it fragile ? Yes. Does it do a lot of damage ? If so it is this trope. And going by this TRS, it is a level of complexity which is actually needed.

  • July 5, 2012
    planswalker
    @violetorange: because there is nothing stating that a Glass Cannon cannot be fast, and noting saying a Fragile Speedster cannot hit hard. I have no clue why you brought up Mighty Glacier, as it has nothing to do with what I'm saying. Yes, MG's are slow. So what? Doesn't change the fact that in order for your trope to actually be unique from a FS that's also a GC, you have to re-define those two to be mutually exclusive.
  • July 6, 2012
    VioletOrange
    Originally, FS is only about high speed, low damage, low health. It is supposed to contrast MG. And subtrope exist for a reason.

  • July 6, 2012
    piscula
    Originally Fragile Speedster may have been about high speed, low damage, low health, but it's not defined that way on it's page. It is high speed and low health. As in the name, Fragile (low health) Speedster (High speed). It says nothing about damage and it specifically defines itself as being able to overlap with Glass Cannon BECAUSE there is nothing in the trope about low damage.

    If the new trope is added that means that Fragile Speedster and Glass Cannon BOTH have to be reworked so that their new meaning (even if their new meaning is their original meaning, I don't know anything about that) and overlap has to be moved to Fast And Fragile Bruiser Trope (or whatever it would be called). The Point is that subtropes exist for a reason, yes, but in this case there really isn't a need for one (as the instance you are referring to isn't being excluded on the current set up and Tropes Are Flexible in addition to the new trope causing THREE trope pages having to be reworked for something that we already have.
  • July 6, 2012
    VioletOrange
    Why would you want to rework a trope because you launch a subtrope of it ? One of the main advantage of subtrope is that you don't need to rework their supertrope. From Tropes Are Flexible, the only thing there is to take care of is to ensure that the demarcation is clear between the supertrope and the subtrope, which is good in that case. And no, we don't already have this one.
  • July 7, 2012
    rodneyAnonymous
    The "reworking" happens automatically. The creation of Glass Cannon But Fast implicitly changes Glass Cannon into Glass Cannon But Slow. Because it says GCBF means something different than GC. There just isn't a reason to make a new article. Exactly what it describes is already easily covered by existing tropes.

    "Originally, FS is only about high speed, low damage, low health." Um, no it's not? This seems made-up. MG had one fewer attribute, not FS one more.

    "And no, we don't already have this one." We don't have Magnificent Bastard Anti Villain either. Because that is two tropes.
  • July 7, 2012
    VioletOrange
    So, answer my question

    Is a Mighty Glacier a unit which is slow, does good attack and defense and looks tough ? If you think that it isn't, that it is just a unit which is slow, does good attack and defense despite the existence of Glacier Waif ( a subtrope of Mighty Glacier which can be summed up as a Mighty Glacier who looks frail), then why would the existence of this trope change the meaning of Glass Cannon and Fragile Speedster ?

    And I can ask you the same question for any subtrope/supertrope couple. Does the existence of And I Must Scream means that when someone is paralyzed for all eternity he doesn't suffer a Fate Worse Than Death ?

  • July 7, 2012
    Sackett
    Isn't this just Glass Cannon?
  • July 7, 2012
    VioletOrange
    No. Glass Cannon sacrifice defense for offense. This sacrifice defense for offense and speed.

  • July 7, 2012
    rodneyAnonymous
    You're asking for an answer that has been given lots of times. If there is an article about Apples, and you make a new article about Green Apples, you are simultaneously changing the definition of the first because that suggests it is different than the second. Saying "no it would be a sub-trope, not a different trope!" sort of scoots around that (sort of) but it's totally the intention.

    Putting it in terms of "sacrifice this for that" is weird. This is Glass Cannon But More Specific, or Fragile Speedster But More Specific.

    The AIMS/FWTD example seems to support the opposite conclusion. Yes, something can invoke two different tropes. Or only one, or only the other. If something always invokes both, or neither, then it is only one trope. This suggestion is redundant.
  • July 7, 2012
    VioletOrange
    Going by your position, I should conclude that the definition of Mighty Glacier is "slow, have good attack and defense and looks tough" since Glacier Waif comes into existence while before it was "slow, does good attack and defense". I really don't see the difference between the two situations. Plus, everything on the Sub Trope page contradict your statement, and tell me that when you make a subtrope of Apple named Green Apples, you don't need to change the description beyond the traditional "when Apples are green, they are also Green Apples and should be put here). In fact, if people didn't knew that Green Apple were Apples, the creation of such of a Sub Trope would implicitly enlarge the definition of Apples. And if before the creation of such a trope, people put the definition of Green Apples into Green Beans, then making such a Sub Trope would also correct some misuse. Now, this would not be sufficient reason to make the subtrope Green Apples. You would also need to show that there is a pattern that isn't too rare to trope (already done here, there is numerous example of it) and that the trope is different enough of his supertrope, which seems to be your problem.

    To demonstrate this, you have three options

    • The concept are totally unrelated: there is no connection between speed, defense and offense and thus the combination of Fragile Speedster and Glass Cannon is just something that happen without meaning. I just have to prove that this trope is explicitly invoked by authors to prove my point (I will give this unit high attack and speed, but bad defense to compensate): that's the case of Ground Control and most fighting game where such a build exist.

    • The subtrope is equal to one of the supertrope. Not the case here.

    • This is The Same But More Specific for the two supertrope. This would make automatically Glass Cannon and Fragile Speedster Ridiculously Similar Trope, thus in need of a merging (if trope A is the same as trope B and trope A is the same as trope C, then trope C is the same as trope B).

  • July 7, 2012
    JonnyB
    Dash discovers he's this in The Incredibles.
  • July 8, 2012
    VioletOrange
    Interestingly, he isn't list as a Glass Cannon in his character sheet despite being one. I put him in the film section, but maybe Western Animation is better ?

    Cute Bruiser: Throwing punches at super speed certainly makes him one. // Fragile Speedster
  • July 8, 2012
    rodneyAnonymous
    Dash is hard-hitting? lol
  • July 9, 2012
    VioletOrange
    Following rodneyAnonymous comment, the Dash example is removed until further clarification.
  • July 9, 2012
    rodneyAnonymous
  • July 12, 2012
    VioletOrange
    Point made. He will remained supressed.
  • July 15, 2012
    Vootuu
    Bump

  • May 7, 2013
    Paradisesnake
    Same thing here. As shimaspawn said here, "we do not need to trope every single possible combination of fighting power, defense, and speed". This was discarded for a reason, so launching it would be a waste of time, since it's going to come flying back.
  • May 7, 2013
    ilniaj
    Would Paper Ram be a better name?
  • May 8, 2013
    Larkmarn
    Lots of things would be a better name.

    I agree that we don't need any more of these subtropes.
  • May 9, 2013
    ilniaj
    The last paragraph should be modified. I don't think this is a subtrope of glass cannon and fragile speedster.
  • May 10, 2013
    morenohijazo
    ^^^^ I really see this combination a lot of times, and here in TV Tropes a lot of examples are potholed to several tropes at the same time when it should be this. Maybe we don't need every combination, but we need this one.
  • May 10, 2013
    Larkmarn
    Honestly, I think Glass Cannon covers this fine. To be perfectly frank, I inherently assume a GC is fast unless it's a Squishy Wizard in which case... I assume it's a Squishy Wizard.
  • May 10, 2013
    StarSword
    ^I can think of an entire category of GC's that are slow: Missile frigates in X3: Terran Conflict, and other similarly artillery-themed vehicles.
  • May 10, 2013
    MrL1193
    I don't think "Paper Ram" conveys the described meaning at all. For me, it calls to mind two things--a Paper Tiger (something that appears powerful but is actually weak) and a Battering Ram (which is powerful but slow).

    Though, really, I just don't think we need another trope for this in the first place.
  • May 11, 2013
    ilniaj
    ^ By ram I meant a male goat. Those things can run fast and I'd imagine hit very hard.
  • May 11, 2013
    DunDun
    ^When I hear "Paper Ram", I do not think of the animal; I actually thought it was supposed to be a Battering Ram pun. Besides, the connection with Paper Tiger (given that you meant the animal ram) makes this look like something that appears weak and actually is weak, which is not this trope.

    What about Defenseless Bruiser?
  • May 11, 2013
    MarqFJA
    Anyone ever thought of merging all those tropes into one trope about stat specialization, with only subtropes for the classical/most obvious and common archetypes like Fragile Speedster (high speed, low defense, average to low attack power)?
  • May 11, 2013
    ilniaj
    ^^ A bit of an oxymoron Bruiser implies hitting hard and still being tough. Generally the stat specialization tropes have two words in their name. One that tells it's main weakness while the other tells it's strength. Currently Paper Ram is the best available since the "Paper" implies fragile while the "Ram" implies being fast and hitting hard. Do you have a better name?
  • May 12, 2013
    TrueShadow1
    About the Glacier Waif thing, I need to say that it's a very different case for this trope. Glacier Waif is about Stats + Appearance, while this one is about Stats + Stats. Glacier Waif is about the viewer's expectations. When they see a girl in the party, they usually think White Magician Girl or Cute Witch, but it turns out the girl is a Mighty Glacier instead. The gap between the viewer's expectation and the actual thing leaves an impact, which is why it gets its own Trope. It's not merely "Mighty Glacier that looks cute", but more of "A girl? Nah, gotta be a Squishy Wizard or Fragile Speedster. Wait, she's the Mighty Glacier??"

    This one, however, does not have such a thing.
  • August 13, 2013
    hbi2k
    We've got a thread going with a lot of discussion on how to fix up this and several other statistical archetype tropes:

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1375910344098917700

    When it comes to Paper Ram, I think it's definitely tropable, but as it stands the name and description are both pretty lame.

    The name doesn't convey offensive power: I'm imagining an origami ram crumpling itself against a Stone Wall and doing no damage. It also evokes Paper Tiger, which conveys ineffectiveness. Not good.

    As for the description, there's that weird bullet point list of subtypes, but if there's a difference between the Dodger and the Raider I'm not seeing it. Seems pretty redundant and convoluted to me.

    Is there a method for getting the page deleted until the YKTTW can fix it up proper? I mean, I could just go in and delete the entire description and examples and leave it as a blank page, but I have no idea if that's a legit / permitted way of dealing with a problem case like this and don't want to step on moderator toes.
  • August 13, 2013
    DAN004
    Definitely needs better name. Upping Glass Ninja.
  • August 14, 2013
    hbi2k
    The current thinking in the forum thread is to limit tropes dealing with the STR / SPD / DEF stat trifecta to two stats apiece (with the exception of Lightning Bruiser which is +STR +SPD +DEF and is sort of grandfathered in). If that's the case, this trope would just be a combination of Fragile Speedster (+SPD -DEF) and Glass Cannon (+STR -DEF) and thus not tropable.
  • August 14, 2013
    DAN004
    "the STR / SPD / DEF stat trifecta to two stats apiece"

    I guess Mighty Glacier is sort of grandfathered in too? (+STR -SPD +DEF)
  • August 14, 2013
    hbi2k
    That's under discussion. I'm proposing that Mighty Glacier be overhauled and redefined as +STR -SPD, with a note in the description that it often overlaps with Stone Wall (+DEF -SPD). We haven't reached a consensus yet though. Would love more input if you care to join us in the thread.

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=1375910344098917700
  • August 14, 2013
    morenohijazo
    ^ I would say Stone Wall is +DEF -STR, not +DEF -SPD.
  • August 14, 2013
    xanderiskander
    This trope has been through YTTKW several times and discarded by mods more than once. It was launched prematurely, and seems to be covered by several other tropes. Given that, I don't think this and Titanium Peashooter should be on the wiki to be honest. If a mod discarded them before they probably don't have any place here. At least as stat distribution tropes.

    But I think maybe this could be salvaged into a character trope more along the lines of what Long Range Fighter is. Where the character uses the momentum from his speed to do a heavy hit. Instead of making it a stat distribution trope which I don't think it is really. This isn't an archetype found much in works where stat distribution are involved. It seems to be trying to masquerade is that, when it's hardly ever used that way.
  • August 15, 2013
    hbi2k
    @morenohijazo:

    Bring it up in the forum thread linked above. As it stands the description is a bit vague, and some discussion on which way to go with it (+DEF / -STR or +DEF / -SPD) would be useful.
  • August 17, 2013
    superdawge
    If Paper Ram stays, I think its current name is about as good as it's going to get. However, should it be removed, a distinction must be made whether Fragile Speedster or Glass Cannon will inherit Paper Ram's trait of Offense+Speed but no Durability. Tropers cannot be left wondering which would be better suited to take up the Paper Ram mantle, there must be a clear, decided distinction. None of this "Glass Cannon, leaning towards a Fragile Speedster" nonsense.
  • August 17, 2013
    TrueShadow1
    ^How about both? There's nothing saying you can't be both a Glass Cannon and a Fragile Speedster
  • August 17, 2013
    DAN004
    ^ Question is: which stat fits Fragile Speedster? Just +SPD/-DEF or -STR/+SPD/-DEF? (If it's the latter, then Glass Cannon cannot overlap fully)
  • August 17, 2013
    crazysamaritan
    Come to the trope repair thread linked above; we're trying to get everything settled together instead of fixing just one at a time, which has led to unintentional redefinitions in the past.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=itcb8uj9xmnzqgu75bv15fd4