Created By: GracieLizzy on April 14, 2013 Last Edited By: Morgenthaler on November 5, 2016
Troped

America Is Still a Colony

Alternate Universe where either America lost the Revolutionary War or it never happened

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Trope
An Alternate History setting where The United States remains under the control of a European monarchy. The most common version is where the colonists lost The American Revolution. This may be portrayed as a dystopia, especially by writers from the US, or it may simply be to show how glorious The British Empire might be if it hadn't eventually fizzled out (more common with British writers).note  The important thing is that the United States never became an independent country, and the original colonies (at least) remain under control of a foreign king (or queen).

If there was a failed revolution, then it's quite likely that the colonies will have suffered some sort of harsh reprisals, and may still be living under some sort of stern martial law. In this case, expect to find La Résistance going strong.

The colonists will often retain stereotypically British traits, such as accents, even those traits were not actually affected by the war, but by distance, and, in many cases, were already somewhat established by the time the war occurred. This may be done to help remind the viewer that things are different in this timeline, or it may simply be Rule of Funny.

In any case, expect mention of Historical Domain Characters like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin, in much different roles from the ones they played in our history. They may be branded as traitors, or simply remembered for much different things. Benedict Arnold's name will no longer be a synonym for Turncoat, and may even be a term of praise. Paul Revere will be remembered for his work as a silversmith, rather than for the midnight ride immortalized by the poet Longfellow.

See also the Divided States of America, where the US never unified or the union broke up at some point; the Fallen States of America, where the US has become a third world country; and the Expanded States of America, where the US has gotten bigger.

Examples:

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    Anime & Manga 

    Comic Books 
  • In one issue of Grant Morrison's JLA, a probability-altering villain twisted time so America never revolted, and a King George was on the throne. Amongst other things, the Capitol Building changes to look kind of like a larger version of the Houses of Parliament.
  • There's a very brief reference in JSA to a world where the heroes are the Colonial Society of Justice. For some reason, Starman and Stargirl (the only characters we see) wear Revolutionary War era costumes.

    Film 

    Literature 
  • The Bartimaeus Trilogy is set sometime in an alternate 1930's or so, and the third book mentions offhand that the The American Revolution is only just beginning. Some of the demons are threatened with "being sent to fight in the Colonies."
  • In Megamorphs #3: Elfangor's Secret, the villain Visser Four travels back in time to alter various points of human history to make Earth of the present easier to conquer. One of these changes is warning the Hessians of Washington's approach, allowing them to ambush the Americans as they cross the Delaware and thus prevent the United States from being founded.
  • A novel with the appropriate title of For Want of a Nail is a faux textbook of North American history from 1763 to 1971. The point of divergence is the Battle of Saratoga, which ends in a British victory. Shortly thereafter a peace faction gets control of Congress and ends the war with Great Britain. Some revolutionaries escape to form a new nation in Texas, while Britain's North American colonies are given dominion status in the 1830s.
  • In the Lord Darcy series, history diverged around 1199: the Anglo-French Empire is still ruled by a descendant of Richard The Lion Heart, and controls most of western Europe as well as America.
  • The Tales of Alvin Maker splits the difference, with portions of colonial America splitting away as a reduced United States, another portion remaining a colony of a republican England where the Restoration never occurred, and a third part being claimed by the exiled House of Stuart.
  • Tunnel Through the Deeps is a book by Harry Harrison in which, due to the fact it was John Cabot, not Christopher Columbus, who discovered North America, Spain was also never unified and unable to fund Columbus. This lead to a scenario where the revolutionary war was lost and George Washington was shot as a traitor. The main character is a descendant of Washington who feels tarred by his family's bad reputation whilst working on a transatlantic tunnel between the British Isles and the Northern American colonies.
  • The Two Georges takes place in an alternate timeline where George Washington and King George III were able to negotiate a peaceful settlement to the problems between Britain and the colonies. In the 20th century, the North American Union consists of most of North America and is a vital part of the British Empire. The plot of the book concerns the theft of the titular "The Two Georges", a famous painting commemorating George Washington meeting with King George. The painting is held for ransom by the Sons Of Liberty, a racist, terrorist organization seeking independence for the North American Union from Britain.
  • In The Year of the Hangman, The American Revolution was swiftly crushed in 1777. The rebellion has thus gone underground, revolting against the British in more covert ways than open war. The story ends on an ambiguous note, as the British protagonist has decided to join the rebellion, but much of its leadership like Benjamin Franklin and George Washington are now dead.

    Live-Action TV 
  • Saturday Night Live had a skit in which the Pentagon had gotten sick of politicians arguing over what the founders would have wanted. So they invent a Time Machine to settle everyone's questions once and for all. George Washington (played by Russell Brand of all people) is brought to the present, but he's so freaked out by modern times that he goes crazy and ends up being killed by Nancy Pelosi (played by Kristen Wiig). The sketch ends with the Pentagon guy (played by Jason Sudeikis) stepping outside and seeing the British flag flying over the U.S. Capitol, to which he says "Oh uh, that's not good!"
  • Sliders: The "Prince of Wails" episode had the cast slide to an Alternate Universe where the US was under British control and George Washington had been executed as a traitor. Members of the cast then tell a member of the royal family after rescuing him that "Why don't you give democracy a go?" as though he should never have heard of it... despite the United Kingdom having been a Constitutional Monarchy and Parliamentary Democracy since 1688 so he'd know what democracy is.

    Video Games 
  • The second part of the popular Half-Life mod, "Timeline", called "Iced Earth", takes place in a world where the colonies never revolted and the US is under British rule (the Earth is also in the grip of a new Ice Age, hence the title).
  • Game of Thrones: In the "New Wold" campaign, the players can deviate from history quite heavily, including the European colonial powers (especially Britain) keeping the United States from gaining independence.

    Western Animation 
  • The Fairly OddParents had "Twistory", which eventually got banned from airing on Nickelodeon as it was considered to take the anti-British sentiment a bit too far. Timmy wishes the founding fathers to appear in his tree house to help him with a history report. Their removal from history, however, turns the US back into a British colony. Everyone gets bad teeth, all the houses of Dimmsdale turn into tudor thatched room cottages (despite construction being very past that point by 1772 in the UK) and there is no electricity due to Benjamin Franklin never discovering it — completely in ignorance of the discoveries in the fields of electromagnetism by the Englishman Michael Faraday. Timmy then has to go back in time to stop Benedict Arnold from convincing the revolutionaries to surrender.
  • The Futurama episode "All the Presidents' Heads". After Fry accidentally changes history by taking one of the lanterns that was ment to signal Paul Revere, New New York is full of London Underground signs and red double decker hoverbuses, symbols of "Western Britannia" include the Tyranny Bell and Dunkin Crumpets, and everyone wears random period outfits from the Elizabethan to the Victorian age, and speaks with really bad Cockney accents. (Even Hermes, who's from a Commonwealth country anyway.)
  • One episode of Where on Earth Is Carmen Sandiego? had her going back in time and altering key points in the The American Revolution, which resulted in America losing the war and the Chief speaking with a bloody British accent.

Community Feedback Replies: 87
  • April 14, 2013
    Clevomon
    Megamorphs 3 has this via Visser 4's screwing around with the result of the Battle of Trenton using the Time Matrix. It's all undone when the main characters use the Time Matrix to make sure his host, John Berryman, was never born, and thus Visser 4 never gets hold of the Time Matrix.
  • April 14, 2013
    Random888
    I've never seen The Fairly Odd Parents, but the description makes it sound like you're taking something that was meant to be silly way too seriously.

    In any case, there was a Saturday Night Live skit in which the Pentagon had gotten sick of politicians arguing over what the founders would have wanted. So they invent a Time Machine to settle everyone's questions once and for all. George Washington (played by Russell Brand of all people) is brought to the present, but he's so freaked out by modern times that he goes crazy and ends up being killed by Nancy Pelosi (played by Kristen Wiig). The sketch ends with the Pentagon guy (played by Jason Sudeikis) stepping outside and seeing the British flag flying over the U.S. Capitol, to which he says "Oh uh, that's not good!"
  • April 14, 2013
    SharleeD
    The Alvin Maker novels split the difference, with portions of colonial America splitting away as a reduced United States, another portion remaining a colony of a republican England where the Restoration never occurred, and a third part being claimed by the exiled House of Stuart.
  • April 14, 2013
    nielas
    • The Two Georges takes place in an alternate timeline where George Washington and King George III were able to negotiate a peaceful settlement to the problems between Britain and the colonies. In the 20th century, the North American Union consists of most of North America and is a vital part of the British Empire. The plot of the book concerns the theft of the titular "The Two Georges", a famous painting commemorating George Washington meeting with King George. The painting is held for ransom by the Sons Of Liberty, a racist, terrorist organization seeking independence for the North American Union from Britain.
  • April 14, 2013
    JonnyB
    The third part of the popular Half Life mod, "Timeline", called "Iced Earth", takes place in a world where the colonies never revolted and the US is under British rule.
  • April 14, 2013
    Tallens
  • April 14, 2013
    DracMonster
    I think you can shorten it to Royal States Of America or Royal Colonies Of America and its understandable. Some alt titles:

    America The British

    United Kingdom Of America

    Oh Say Can You Tea (Joking...)
  • April 14, 2013
    StarSword
    Subtrope of Alternate History.

    Literature:
  • April 14, 2013
    GracieLizzy
    I'll freely admit I am biased with this trope but I'll try my utmost to be objective if it gets a launch (actually it might be worth someone going over the trope afterwards if it gets that far to make sure it's snarky-but-neutral) I think the Fo P one bugged me more than some of the others because of the inaccuracy but then yeah that show was never accurate I think it's just that I dislike the idea that the show things the US is responsible for all tech in the last 200 plus years or something...

    And Drac Monster Oh Say Can You Tea made me giggle but yeah Royal States Of America or Royal Colonies Of America is probably the best names.
  • April 14, 2013
    DunDun
    I'm all for Royal Colonies Of America. I keep reading the current name as "Colonel." And Royal States just makes me think "Alternate History in which Washington decided to be a king instead of a president."

    But this needs a better description. Just opening up with the trope, "Modern day America under British rule," will improve it bunches.
  • April 14, 2013
    freesefan
    A novel with the appropriate title of For Want of a Nail is a faux textbook of North American history from 1763 to 1971. The point of divergence is the Battle of Saratoga, which ends in a British victory. Shortly thereafter a peace faction gets control of Congress and ends the war wth Great Britain. Some revolutionaries escape to form a new nation in Texas, while Britain's North American colonies are given dominion status in the 1830s.
  • April 14, 2013
    JonnyB
    ...
  • April 14, 2013
    TonyG
    In the Futurama episode, the gang travel back to Colonial times and accidentally cause the Colonists to lose the war. They come back to an America still under British rule, with everyone speaking in British accents.
  • April 14, 2013
    Tuckerscreator
    Literature

    • In Megamorphs #3: Elfangor's Secret, the villain Visser Four travels back in time to alter various points of human history to make Earth of the present easier to conquer. One of these changes is warning the Hessians of Washington's approach, allowing them to ambush the Americans as they cross the Delaware and thus prevent the United States from being founded.
    • In The Year of the Hangman, the American Revolution was swiftly crushed in 1777. The rebellion has thus gone underground, revolting against the British in more covert ways than open war. The story ends on an ambiguous note, as the British protagonist has decided to join the rebellion, but much of its leadership like Benjamin Franklin and George Washington are now dead.
  • April 16, 2013
    Arivne
    Just Royal Colonial States Of America?

    It makes it easier to use in a sentence.
  • April 16, 2013
    DunDun
    ^I don't see how it's concise or how it's easier to use in a sentence than just Royal States Of America or Royal Colonies Of America.
  • April 16, 2013
    GracieLizzy
    I think I'm leaning towards Royal Colonies Of America if only for the fact that "States" as a word seems very much tethered to the modern US to me.
  • April 18, 2013
    GracieLizzy
    Any more examples?
  • April 18, 2013
    Astaroth
    It's not quite this trope, but would the Tyranny of King Washington DLC for Assassins Creed III warrant an honourable mention? As the name suggests, it's set in an Alternate History in which the Americans won the war, but Washington chose to declare himself an absolute monarch instead of president.
  • April 18, 2013
    DaibhidC
    Comic Books
    • In one issue of Grant Morrison's JLA, a probability-altering villain twisted time so America never revolted, and a King George was on the throne. Amongst other things, the Capitol Building changes to look kind of like a larger version of the Houses of Parliament.
    • There's a very brief reference in JSA to a world where the heroes are the Colonial Society of Justice. For some reason, Starman and Stargirl (the only charactes we see) wear Revolutionary War era costumes.
  • April 18, 2013
    Tallens
    We've got quite a few examples that haven't been added to the draft yet.
  • April 19, 2013
    GracieLizzy
    Astaroth I think that's close enough to the trope to count.
  • April 19, 2013
    Tallens
    So, would this include any example where the U.S. is ruled by a monarch instead of being a republic?
  • April 20, 2013
    GracieLizzy
    Hmm, maybe that's a different trope or one lumpable with this trope but with two subsection descriptions to this trope page?
  • April 20, 2013
    intersection
    Google Dominion of British West Florida and check out their website for - believe it or not - a Real Life example purporting this! The website has to be seen to be believed! dbwf.net
  • April 23, 2013
    intersection
    In the film Wild Wild West, part of Arliss Loveless' plan for the U.S. surrender and dividing the country was to return the original 13 colonies to the U.K., "minus Manhattan."
  • May 1, 2013
    Tallens
    Bump
  • May 1, 2013
    Xtifr
    Does it count if history diverged much earlier?

    • In the Lord Darcy series, history diverged around 1199: the Anglo-French Empire is still ruled by a descendant of Richard The Lion Heart, and controls most of western Europe as well as America.
  • May 6, 2013
    intersection
    I would imagine so, as it would fall within the idea that the American War of Independence never happened.
  • May 8, 2013
    GracieLizzy
    Yeah I'd say that counts. Too.
  • May 8, 2013
    Tallens
    If the new examples are added and categorized, I'll be willing to hang my hat on it.
  • May 8, 2013
    intersection
    Me too. This has a lot of promise.
  • May 8, 2013
    intersection
    Remember too: the flag of Hawai'i has the Union Jack in it.
  • May 11, 2013
    DaibhidC
    • The Futurama episode "All the Presidents' Heads". When Fry accidentally changes history, New New York is full of London Underground signs and red double decker hoverbuses, symbols of "Western Britannia" include the Tyranny Bell and Dunkin Crumpets, and everyone wears random period outfits from the Elizabethan to the Victorian age, and speaks with really bad Cockney accents. (Even Hermes, who's from a Commonwealth country anyway.)
  • May 18, 2013
    Tallens
    Anyone looking after this?
  • May 18, 2013
    DunDun
    The Up For Grabs page says wait two months? If that's what you mean.

    I would like to know what the decision is about the name; the sponser said they're "leaning towards" Royal Colonies Of America? Can we get a change in the draft's name, please, Gracie Lizzy.
  • May 19, 2014
    DAN004
    Uh...
  • May 27, 2014
    lakingsif
    Royal States Of America, what? Royal would not be in the name, despite a monarchy. How about United Kingdoms Of North America for a title.

    Edit: Oh, if you're liking colonies, then it's Crown Colonies. So, Crown Colonies Of America (North not needed here — just because the history changed doesn't mean geography can be ignored!)
  • May 27, 2014
    DAN004
  • May 27, 2014
    zarpaulus
    ^ Too unspecific I think. There have been multiple monarchies in Central and South America for instance
  • May 27, 2014
    DAN004
  • May 28, 2014
    lakingsif
    ^ better
  • May 28, 2014
    JonnyB
    Fixed an entry I proposed earlier: Iced Earth was actually the second installment of the Timeline trilogy, not the third.
  • May 28, 2014
    henke37
    • Teen Titans Evil Brit page image Mad Mod once took over the city and brainwashed everyone into thinking that this was the truth.
  • July 4, 2014
    Tallens
    For Independence Day, bump.
  • October 13, 2014
    jormis29
    Anyone come up with a better name yet?
  • October 13, 2014
    robinjohnson
    This would make a lovely page image (though I don't know who made it originally; someone on b3ta.com I think.)
  • October 13, 2014
    robinjohnson
    My votes for the title: United Kingdom Of America (not Kingdoms) or British States Of America (which is what precisely this is called in the Silders episode used as an example.)
  • October 14, 2014
    robinjohnson
    Does this count?
    • In The Difference Engine, America isn't British-ruled: there's the Union, the Confederacy, and the Republics of Texas and California - but it is implied that British subterfuge is deliberately stopping those countries from unifying into the US as we know them.
  • January 16, 2015
    jormis29
    Bump for decision on name and launch
  • January 17, 2015
    jormis29

    Tabletop Games
    • GURPS Alternate Earths, Volume II: The point of divergence for the Cornwallis timeline is the decision of Anne-Robert-Jacques Turgot to not criticise Marie Antoinette as he did in the our world. Without the queen's animosity to Turgot, King Louis XVI followed his advice against supporting the American Revolution over that of the anti-British Charles Gravier causing the revolution to fail and the Tories in Britain acquiesce to a restoration of true royal power. By the current year (1984), the British monarchy keeps the Thirteen Colonies economically repressed and confined to the east of the Appalachians due to the Royal Proclamation of 1763.

    Here's an article on io9.com that might be worth a look.
  • January 17, 2015
    jamespolk
    I hope that we get to absorb Canada in these alternate histories. Maybe the United States could learn to love poutine.

    Just Launch It Already.
  • January 17, 2015
    jormis29
  • February 2, 2015
    jormis29
    • Examples section formatting
      • Updated some Namespaces that have changed since my last edit.

  • April 15, 2015
    lakingsif
    CROWNER Have at it.
  • April 15, 2015
    Tallens
    I think the description needs to be re-written to put more emphasis on this trope rather than the other alt-history tropes.
  • April 19, 2015
    lakingsif
    ^ yes, description needs to better describe the trope
  • April 29, 2016
    Berrenta
    Has the description issue been resolved? This appears to have been launched prematurely.
  • April 29, 2016
    PaulA
    [edited description to put the list of related tropes at the back of the description instead of the front]

    What's your definition of "prematurely"? It's clearly over the minimum required age for a ykttw to be launched, and has an enviable number of hats.
  • June 18, 2016
    Morgenthaler
    Maybe they think the description is a little barebones?
  • August 21, 2016
    GoldenDarkness
    The Edutainment Game Peppers Adventures In Time has a Game Over screen that depicts the American Flag changing to the British one, with the White House in the foreground, as a result of the protagonist failing to undo her uncle's changes to American history.
  • October 14, 2016
    MarqFJA
    ... Why was this launched? There has been literally no change in the description ever since it was pointed out that it needs improvement.

    On a different note, why are we limiting this to "American Revolution failed" cases? I can see this trope being expanded to include examples where the American Revolution somehow ended up creating an independent kingdom/empire rather than a republic (apparently a few of the Founding Fathers were quasi-monarchists despite being anti-British).
  • October 14, 2016
    Berrenta
    Unlaunched... again, because description was unchanged, so issues still stand.
  • October 14, 2016
    MarqFJA
    Can't the staff do something about the hats? Resetting them would do a lot against deterring well-intentioned but hasty contributors who base their judgement of whether or not to launch a trope on how many green hats it has, and this one has 17 green to a mere 2 red.
  • October 14, 2016
    Berrenta
    It is beyond capabilities of the staff to do anything about hats, so I went ahead and added a header notice.
  • October 17, 2016
    Hallucinated
    ^^^^ I'd argue that the failure, or lack of occurrence, of American independence is a substantially different idea to that of crazed George Washington (or whoever) crowning himself king of America. The first seems to connote failed idealism and romanticism and seems to emphasise some horrible foreign oppression (which is kind of funny as they wouldn't actually be foreign), while the other is more about perverted dreams and insane dystopia (presumably the idea being that it would be "crazy" for Americans to set up their own monarchy). They might be related in terms of form of government, but are expressions of different kinds of fears.

    Aside from the typical "monarchical America is bad" idea and getting into more neutral exploratory alternate history, while in the broadest sense both of these ideas represent different directions America could have gone from around the same period, America as part of global British empire is substantially different from America as isolated new world monarchy. There may well be a good trope in "monarchist independent America", but I don't think that it's really appropriate to lump together with "America loses/never fights the war of independence" simply through sharing a form of government; independent vs. colony is a pretty big distinction. A defeated, puppet government that nevertheless is a direct continuation of the extant US state vs. a powerful expanded US that added a few new states somehow are both in theory the same form of government and maybe even the same state, but are still pretty distinct ideas.
  • October 17, 2016
    ZeroL
    This is ready to just launch.
  • October 17, 2016
    Xtifr
    Wow, I went away for a couple of years, and I come back, and this still hasn't launched? Ok, NBD...hmm, let's see. How about:

    An Alternate History setting where The United States remains under the control of a European monarchy. The most common version is where the colonists lost The American Revolution. This may be portrayed as a dystopia, especially by writers from the US, or it may simply be to show how glorious The British Empire might be if it hadn't fizzled out (more common with British writers). The important thing is that the United States never became an independent country, and the original colonies (at least) remain under control of a foreign king (or queen).

    If there was a failed revolution, then it's quite likely that the colonies will have suffered some sort of harsh reprisals, and may still be living under some sort of stern martial law. In this case, expect to find La Resistance going strong.

    In any case, expect mention of Historical Domain Characters like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin, in much different roles from the ones they played in our history. They may be branded as traitors, or simply remembered for much different things. Benedict Arnold's name will no longer be a synonym for Turncoat, and may even be a term of praise. Paul Revere will be remembered for his work as a silversmith, rather than for the midnight ride immortalized by the poet Longfellow.

    See also the Divided States Of America, where the US never unified or the union broke up at some point; the Fallen States Of America, where the US has become a third world country; and the Expanded States Of America, where the US has gotten bigger.
  • October 17, 2016
    Bisected8
    It might also be worth mentioning that the RSA also tends to get a lot of stereotypically "English" trappings in more comedic works, which don't technically make much sense (accents that developed geographically, foods that never really took off in the Americas for practical reasons). Even more serious works somehow assume that America would somehow be much more culturally similar to London than would be expected (since there's still an ocean between them either way).

    Also, the British Empire didn't end with the American Revolution (it actually expanded to the point that some historians call the post 1783 empire the "Second British Empire").
  • October 17, 2016
    Xtifr
    ^ First point sounds good. Let me think about it for a bit. As for the second point, yes, I'm quite aware. It doesn't seem particularly relevant, but if you think I was misleading people into thinking that the American revolution was the start of the fall of the British Empire, then maybe I can tweak things a bit.
  • October 18, 2016
    MarqFJA
    If "the Americans lost the Revolutionary War" and "the Americans won the Revolutionary War but went with a monarchy instead of a republic" are that different... then why not name the former (which is what this trope is about as it's written) either America Lost The Revolutionary War or No American Revolution and leave Royal States Of America for the latter? Royal States Of America doesn't really give the impression that the trope requires that examples be all about a failed American Revolution; they just tell the reader that the trope is about the USA as a monarchy instead of a republic.
  • October 20, 2016
    Xtifr
    Hmm, America Is Still A Colony might describe it best. Crown Colonies Of America (which is the best name I can find up-thread) sounds like it might refer to works set before the revolution. I do agree that the currently proposed name seems quite misleading.
  • October 23, 2016
    Xtifr
    Ok, expanded to incorporate Bisected 8's suggestions:
    An Alternate History setting where The United States remains under the control of a European monarchy. The most common version is where the colonists lost The American Revolution. This may be portrayed as a dystopia, especially by writers from the US, or it may simply be to show how glorious The British Empire might be if it hadn't eventually fizzled out (more common with British writers).note  The important thing is that the United States never became an independent country, and the original colonies (at least) remain under control of a foreign king (or queen).

    If there was a failed revolution, then it's quite likely that the colonies will have suffered some sort of harsh reprisals, and may still be living under some sort of stern martial law. In this case, expect to find La Resistance going strong.

    The colonists will often retain stereotypically British traits, such as accents, even those traits were not actually affected by the war, but by distance, and, in many cases, were already somewhat established by the time the war occurred. This may be done to help remind the viewer that things are different in this timeline, or it may simply be Rule Of Funny.

    In any case, expect mention of Historical Domain Characters like George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, and Benjamin Franklin, in much different roles from the ones they played in our history. They may be branded as traitors, or simply remembered for much different things. Benedict Arnold's name will no longer be a synonym for Turncoat, and may even be a term of praise. Paul Revere will be remembered for his work as a silversmith, rather than for the midnight ride immortalized by the poet Longfellow.

    See also the Divided States Of America, where the US never unified or the union broke up at some point; the Fallen States Of America, where the US has become a third world country; and the Expanded States Of America, where the US has gotten bigger.
    Anything else we should mention?

    I do think we should discuss the name a bit more; the current one seems very misleading to me.

    And while I'm at it...Indexes! I suggest Settings, Alternate History Tropes, and Indexed States Of America.
  • October 24, 2016
    Morgenthaler
    Good rewrite.
  • October 24, 2016
    MarqFJA
    America Is Still A Colony sounds good to me. My previously suggested alternatives still stand, of course.
  • October 25, 2016
    Bisected8
    Looks good to me too.
  • October 26, 2016
    Morgenthaler
    ^^ I'm good with that title too.
  • October 26, 2016
    MarqFJA
    So... who's going to make a new draft under the name of "Royal States of America" and with the previously described broader definition(s)?
  • October 27, 2016
    Xtifr
    ^ One thing at a time! :) (But if you have examples, I might be persuaded to try to come up with a description for ya.)

    In the mean time, lets make sure that there's no further objections to the latest description or the proposed new name. If nobody speaks up soon, I think we're good to go.
  • October 28, 2016
    MarqFJA
    Well, there's the article image on Alternate History (linking to Assassins Creed III), depicting George Washington as "King George I of the Most Sovereign Kingdom — The United States of America". Other than that, I'm drawing blanks; I think I've seen the concept being used on the Alternate History Forum/Wiki.

    Sorry if I seem insistent, I'm just worried about Missing Supertrope Syndrome taking root after this trope gets made. I never like making a subtrope before its natural supertrope.
  • October 28, 2016
    Xtifr
    But "the US is a kingdom" isn't a supertrope of this. It's a sibling at best. And Alternate History is the supertrope here. Yes, we could go for a more specific one (Alternate America?), but we're not, technically, missing a supertrope.
  • October 28, 2016
    MarqFJA
    Let me explain the network of tropes that I see in my mind, including currently nonexistent tropes:

    Does this look right?
  • October 29, 2016
    Xtifr
    Ok, I ran the new name and description up the flagpole to see if anyone salutes or objects. Making them a little more visible should help get feedback.

    As for ^, well, I think Alternate History American Monarchy sounds like The Same But More Specific to Alternate History. But your proposal for a proper Royal States Of America sister trope seems reasonable if you can find examples. I might even be able to come up with a couple if I search some of my travel-sideways-through-time books. Those usually offer dozens of alternate histories all in one.
  • October 31, 2016
    Morgenthaler
    ^^ That Super Trope is a good idea; I've started a new proposal for it.

    As for this one, I think it's ready to go now. Royal States Of America can be handled in its own proposal.
  • November 3, 2016
    MarqFJA
    ^^ Alternate History American Monarchy doesn't really seem that much of The Same But More Specific, when one considers that of the currently existing countries whose government currently operates as a republic (thus disqualifying cases like England and the Netherlands), the oldest three among them in terms of when they made the transition are, in descending chronological order: San Marino (September 3, 301), Switzerland (October 24, 1648), and the United States of America (September 3, 1783)note . And like it or not, the USA did pretty much become the most popular example of a "modern liberal-democratic republic" for a lot of countries around the world since then. Combined with the fact that it was born from a revolution against a monarchy-ruled country, and had never been a monarchy itself since it attained independence, and it's easy to see why imagining it as a monarchy has special significance compared to, say, France. It's not hard to imagine what a modern French monarchy could be like, because it used to be one just a mere 2 centuries ago (heck, France oscillated between monarchism and republicanism several times after the first French Revolution, before finally settling on republicanism).
  • November 4, 2016
    Xtifr
    ^ Those are good arguments for Royal States Of America, not Alternate History American Monarchy. Or, perhaps for having AHAM instead of RSA. But I don't see any reason why we would need both.

    In any case, I don't think it's particularly relevant to this trope, which has a broad supertrope already, and another narrower one in planning. I think we can launch this without worries at this point.

    (But if you want to really get picky: note that the Netherlands were actually still a republic at the time of the American Revolution, and it was the Dutch Republic which used to own New Amsterdam—now known as New York. If the Dutch Republic had expanded into North America instead of turning over the land to the British, the wealth from the New World might have helped keep the republic going, and we might now have America Is Still A Colony of a European republic! Which means this trope is not, strictly speaking, a subtrope of Alternate History American Monarchy. But I may be over-analyzing things here, since Tropes Are Flexible.) :)
  • November 5, 2016
    Morgenthaler
    Yeah, this trope is ready for launch. This discussion can be continued in an Alternate American Monarchy proposal. Anyone want to sponsor that?
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=cfuwlyjm9hneg68dzoef99ey