DuelingMessiahs Dueling Messiahs YKTTW Discussion
Two people want to better the world... and that makes them enemies.Up For Grabs
Do We Have This One??, Needs More Examples, could use a good image The world can be a cruel, dreadful place sometimes, but thankfully, there's people that want to change that. There's only so many times the universe can kick the dog before the dog bites back, and at least a few individuals rise to fight the injustices of the world time and again. But these saviors are, quite often, just people. They have their virtues and their flaws like anyone else, and though they have made up their own mind about how they want to change the world, sometimes these opinions clash. They may agree on why the world needs saving, but they don't agree on the how. Snide comments are thrown, furious arguments ensue, and next thing you know, the people who are humanity's best hope are now tragically at each other's throats. And possibly more. Dueling Messiahs is what happens when two or more people want to save the world, but their differing methods on how lead to conflict. This is the stuff of tragedy: human folly gets in the way of the betterment of the world, and two people who might be fast friends otherwise instead become irreconcilable enemies. This trope is difficult to handle properly, since it's very easy to make one of the messiahs a Designated Villain or too much of a Well-Intentioned Extremist to be sympathetic. But handled properly, you'll have two guys who both have compelling arguments to their methods and a fandom split right in the middle over which one of them's right. Compare Opposed Mentors, who are more concerned with doing right by one person than the entire world, Good Versus Good depending on how "moral" the messiahs in question are, Not Quite the Right Thing, and Small Steps Hero. This trope leads to some interesting conflicts:
- To Be Lawful or Good: One of the saviors wants to better the world by maintaining order, while the other wants to save the world through general goodness and compassion. While superficially they might seem compatible, it's also easily apparent how they might clash: the lawful savior might take it in the extreme of Utopia Justifies the Means, but the other one could be too much of an Idiot Hero to realize that there needs to be established order for good to be able to persist and not just be a temporary solution.
- The Messiah vs the Dark Messiah: One of the classic scenarios with this trope: one of the saviors believes the world is inherently rotten, and to save it you have to play by its rules. However, the Dark Messiah CAN be made sympathetic if the world is enough of a shithole that his methods can clearly be seen as effective, or he has a past tragic enough that one can see how he'd end up with a dark outlook in life. This can become particualrly interesting if later events prove that the Dark messiah actually kinda knew what he was talking about.
- Right Makes Might vs Might Makes Right: One savior's methods are idealistic and peaceful, while the other's methods are violent and pragmatic.
Examples:[[folder:Anime And Manga]]
- Kenshiro vs Raoh in Fist of the North Star, as shown above. Both are students of Hokuto Shinken, the most powerful martial art on the planet which produces men of great brilliance and destiny, and both recognize that the post-apocalyptic world in which they live could stand to be a better place. But while Kenshiro believes that one should use strength to inspire humanity towards peace and protect the weak, Raoh believes that the world will improve by becoming the leader and forcing those under him to maintain order. Toki, the third Hokuto Brother, strives for peace and non-violence, using Hokuto Shinken to ease the suffering of others as a healer. This puts him at odds with Raoh, but on Kenshiro's side.
- Naruto fights Pain. Pain wanted to bring peace by creating a horrifically destructive jutsu (which would get used), thereby horrifying/scaring everyone into peace for a long time. Once time lets people get over it, they will use it again, after this there will be a very long period of peace, rinse and repeat till the end of time. Naruto wanted to achieve peace in a much more moral yet still unexplained way that he still probably hasn't come up with. (for those of you who aren't familiar with the series a jutsu is like a ninja spell).
- In the original Saint Seiya the reason behind The Forever War that flared up every few centuries between Poseidon and Athena was based on Poseidon wanting to pull a Noah's flood to fix the world, while Athena wanted to protect it and allow humans to develop on their own terms.
- Saint Seiya Omega is interesting since it has not one, but two Messiah's and one Dark Messiah. Athena wants to protect the world from evil forces, and Mars wants to destroy it because his Start of Darkness (and Dark Is Evil based powers) influenced him to think only the strong should rule in order to stop senseless suffering. Caught between them is Aria, who would like to be like Athena, but Mars is using her as a figurehead to fool others and enact his evil plan.
- Code Geass deals with childhood best friends Lelouch Lamperouge and Suzaku Kururugi, both of whom agree on one thing - that the current regime, the Britannian empire, is horrible. However, their methods of changing it differ drastically - Lelouch has enough of a Dark and Troubled Past to want to overthrow his father the Emperor, and will settle for nothing less than the complete destruction of the monarchy (of which he is a part of - except, of course, for his beloved little sister). Suzaku, on the other hand, rejects an offer to join Lelouch more than once and actually ingratiates himself into Britannian culture quite well (despite being Japanese) because he believes the Britannian empire can be changed from the inside.
- Played with in Berserk. Guts is seen by the public as The Antichrist who's trying to kill Griffith, the Hawk of Light prophesized by the Pope. In reality, Griffith (aka Femto) is the Hawk of Darkness, a member of the God Hand who's supposed to bring a new age of darkness upon the world. This would in turn make Guts, who's actively slaying Apostles and trying to kill Griffith, the real Hawk of Light. This setup is, however, further complicated by the fact that Guts is a borderline Nominal Hero who is constantly struggling with his inner demons, while Griffith is actually making the Apostles fight on the side of the humans (though to what end, we can't be quite sure).
- X1999: Actually invoked by Fuuma and Kamui's dynamic; Kamui is a stock Messianic Archetype, a boy destined to either save the world or destroy it, depending on whether he thinks it's worth saving or not. Fuuma himself is destined to become Kamui's Evil Counterpart of sorts; he's supposed to fight for whatever side Kamui doesn't pick. Because of No Ending, it remains to be seen how this dynamic will play out.
- Big Mama vs Sacher Torte in Sorcerer Hunters. Both believe that the world is not a nice place anymore, but while Big Mama strives to heal it, Sacher Torte wants to destroy it and rebuild it from scratch, believing it too far gone for redemption. Big Mama's dedication to maintaining the world is so absolute, she even attempted to KILL Carrot so he wouldn't turn into the God of Destruction.
- Captain America vs Iron Man in Civil War. After the tragedy at Stanford results in civilian casualties during a supervillain attack, the government puts into motion the Superhuman Registration Act. Iron man takes the "Lawful" side of the conflict, while Cap takes the "Good" side. Your Mileage May Vary on how well that was handled.
- Professor Charles Xavier vs Magneto in X-Men. Both want the welfare of the Mutant race, but their methods could not differ more. Xavier wants Mutants to be one with humanity, using their abilities for the betterment of mankind and living with humans as equals. Magneto, by contrast, wants Mutants to be the rulers of humanity, considering them genetically superior. While this might make Magneto seem like the bad guy(and he is, to an extent), his backstory also gives him valid reasons for his way of thinking: being a Holocaust survivor, he's faced persecution before, and has sworn that the people of his race shall not face it while he's around.
- Commander Sam Vimes vs Lord Vetinari in Discworld. Both want what's best for Ankh-Morpork, but they often butt heads when Vetinari's using some of his more... unsavory methods, while Vimes's policing just flat out ruins Vetinari's plans.
- The three emperors of Romance of the Three Kingdoms. All three want to unify China, but their methods and motivations are incompatible with each other.
- In Harry Potter there was a legendary duel between Albus Dumbledore and Gellert Grindelwald because the dark wizard, Grindelwald, wanted to lead the wizards out of hiding and Dumbeldore had become the champion for the muggles, those without magic.
- Sort of joked about in the Dire Straits song "Industrial Disease":
I go down to Speaker's Corner and I'm thunderstruckThey got free speech, tourists, police in trucksTwo men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrongThere's a protest singer, he's singing protest songs
- Meanwhile the first Jesus says 'I'll cure it soonAbolish Monday mornings and Friday afternoons'The other one's on a hunger strike he's dying by degreesHow come Jesus gets Industrial Disease?
- The Later-Day Saint view on the War in Heaven states that Satan proposed a plan with himself as "Savior", but mankind would live on earth without agency. Jesus offered to be the one to save the world as God wanted, with agency. Obviously God chose Jesus as the Messiah.
- Commander Shepard vs The Illusive Man in the Mass Effect series. Both strive to serve and move humanity forward and save them from the Reapers, but while Shepard does it through heroic, direct action, the Illusive Man prefers more unsavory, underhanded tactics. However, it's valid to point out that, initially, they DID work together, until the Illusive Man went too far with his more ruthless methods. The Illusive Man was indoctrinated at some point, sure, but he was genuinely trying to serve humanity beforehand, and his indoctrination by the Reapers was through manipulation of his desire to help humanity. Being a Fallen Hero does not stop one from still being a Messiah of sorts.
- Many Shin Megami Tensei games deal with these, with you choosing which "Messiah" you will support. Typically, the games take place after or during The End of the World as We Know It, and some characters will come up with ideas to form the new world that fall along the lines of Law-Neutral-Chaos. The Law character will suggest a society where the law is absolute and free will is minimized, while the chaos character will suggest The Social Darwinist society. Neutral is usually undoing the apocalypse and return the society to how it was before.
- Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne is an interesting example, with FOUR potential saviors. The Demi-Fiend is the main arbiter of what direction the world will go into, but there are also three other characters with their own opinions of the direction the world can take. Chiaki strives to create a world based on Social Darwinism, where the strong flourish and the weak perish. Isamu wants to create a world based on individuality, in which everyone will have their own world suited to them and sever ties with everyone else. Hikawa wants to create a world of "emptiness", where no one has free will and thus no evil can be performed. The Demi-Fiend can side with one of these saviors or defy all three and take a fourth option or fifth option. One of them is to give the world back to humans exactly as it was, trusting them to create their own destiny, while the other one is to defeat Lucifer to become the new ruler of Hell and assault Heaven to kick God's ass. Yikes.
- Korra vs Amon in The Legend of Korra. As the Avatar, Korra is literally the cosmic incarnation of balance, so she has the responsibility of maintaining order among the benders of the different nations and promoting the use of Bending as a way to better the world. Amon, by contrast, believes that benders are the source of all the conflict in the world, and that eliminating Bending completely would usher in an era of peace and equality amongst the people. Amon at least claims that he was wronged by Benders before(his family was killed and his face scarred by Firebending bandits), but anyone who has seen the original series can testify that he might actually have a point. Of course, their philosophies inevitably put them at odds.
- A psychology experiment in 1959 placed three schizophrenics in the same room, each believing he was Jesus Christ. Doing so did nothing to relieve them of their delusions, only making it stronger and causing them to fight over which one of them should be worshipped. Eventually they rationalized their conflicting identities with their own explanations, such that the other two were mental patients or that the other two were robots. Two years later, each man still believed he was Jesus, and the doctor in charge of the experiment felt tremendous guilt over the experiment and renounced his methods.