Created By: neoYTPismMay 9, 2011 Last Edited By: neoYTPismMay 26, 2011

Self Refuting Statement

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Trope
Jeremiah: It's not fair. My brother Joseph has a sin to confess. I wish I had one too.
Papa Sheep: Oh, don't you see? You DO have a sin to confess; the sin of envy!

Do We Have This One? Oh, and I'm open to title suggestions.

This is when an idea or phrase is considered self contradictory by its very nature.

The Other Wiki already has an article on this concept.

Examples:

Community Feedback Replies: 32
  • May 9, 2011
    randomsurfer
    .
  • May 10, 2011
    Micah
  • May 10, 2011
    jaytee
    I don't understand how the page quote is a contradiction...
  • May 10, 2011
    Bisected8
    In stating he didn't have a sin to confess he admitted to being envious and thus confessed a sin.
  • May 10, 2011
    jaytee
    It's not really self-refuting on its face though. For instance, my belief system doesn't consider envy as a sin, so if he had told me the same statement, it wouldn't be refuted.

    Come to think of it, the Obi-wan example isn't really self-refuting either, it's just wrong.

    And I hate to top this off with a dismissal, but I'm not even sure this would be trope. It's not a storytelling concept or anything related to the idea of storytelling concepts, it's just a logical construction.
  • May 12, 2011
    neoYTPism
    ^ We do have pages for fallacies.

    That said, the sheep were in a Christian moral reference frame, for which envy is considered a sin.
  • May 13, 2011
    Arivne
    .
  • May 13, 2011
    Fearmonger
  • May 13, 2011
    Jordan
    I think there's more evidence than Yoda's statement that indicates that Kenobi is not a Sith in disguise...
  • May 13, 2011
    neoYTPism
    ^ Yoda's statement is a bit more definitive than... whatever else you are referring to. (If actions, bear in mind that Obi-Wan actions hardly come across as those of a "good guy.")

    EDIT: Come to think of it, what ARE you referring to?
  • May 13, 2011
    chronotwister
    obi wans state ment is contadictory think about it only the sith deal in absalutes that in itsself is an absalute thus eaither obi is a sith or he is just an idiot th elast one being more likly though he does seem to leen torward the sith side with his defence of not telling luke that vader was lukes father" from a cetrin point of veiw"
  • May 13, 2011
    Jordan
    ^What.

    @Neo- I was referring to the statement, "One alternative explanation is that Obi-Wan really is a sith after all". I don't think it's all that likely that was the creator's intent. Do you really see the character as villainous?

    I know this is getting off-topic. The infamous quote is pretty illogical, but I wonder if it's something that's illogical but not factually untrue. If the Sith are the only people who deal in absolutes, it's not untrue to state that, even if it doesn't sound logical coming out.
  • May 13, 2011
    neoYTPism
    I'm just saying that Yoda's statement was the most definitely disproving of the "Obi-Wan is a sith" explanation. Yeah, it didn't seem to be George's intent to portray Obi as a sith either, but you never know what George's intent is either.

    I suppose my explanation of why Yoda's statement is the most definitive disproof could use rewording though.
  • May 16, 2011
    WackyMeetsPractical
  • May 16, 2011
    jaytee
    ^^The important thing is that the statement is not self-refuting on its face. If Obi-Wan is a sith, then the statement may or may not be true. If he is not a sith, the statement is merely false. Do you see how the refutation of the fact relies on something external (whether Obi-Wan is a sith) rather than the statement itself?

    Same goes for the page quote.

    The only real example we have so far is from (oh god) Portal 2.
  • May 18, 2011
    neoYTPism
    ^ Not really, my page quote is an apparent enough example.

    ^^ Not quite. There is room for overlap, but that is hypocrisy played for laughs. Something can be "hypocritical" without necessarily contradicting itself.
  • May 19, 2011
    HumanaUox
    The Gödel Paradox: "This statement cannot be proven true or false by means of heuristics."
  • May 19, 2011
    neoYTPism
    The what paradox? Are you sure you typed that right? @ Humana Uox
  • May 19, 2011
    jaytee
    ^^^Apparent to you, perhaps. It really isn't an example. It doesn't refute itself. Some outside context refutes it.
  • May 19, 2011
    ginsengaddict
    I'm with jaytee, I'm not sure this is a trope. But, I do think it'd be fun too include a page for these - if only to link it to Logic Bomb.

    • All generalizations are false.
  • May 19, 2011
    jaytee
    Could go on a Useful Information page?
  • May 19, 2011
    jaytee
    I could have sworn that was a namespace. What am I thinking of?
  • May 19, 2011
    bluepenguin
  • May 19, 2011
    EzzyAlpha
    I think You Answered Your Own Question is for this? It seems too similar.
  • May 20, 2011
    neoYTPism
    ^ No, they're very different concepts. This is for statements that contradict themselves by their very nature. You Answered Your Own Question is for when asking the question implies the answer, and even then its examples don't necessarily do that inherently. (The page image, for example, would not have been an example had the question been phrased in a way that didn't make reference to them being pole vaulters.)
  • May 21, 2011
    GuesssWho
    I am lying. This statement is false. I don't know English. I can't write. Everything I say is wrong.
  • May 21, 2011
    ginsengaddict
    This Wiki is not Tv Tropes. :P

    This is Not A Trope, but I am all for giving it a Just For Fun page.
  • May 22, 2011
    neoYTPism
    How about putting it in YMMV, so that people can point it out on works pages?
  • May 23, 2011
    jaytee
    It's not really subjective or YMMV though.
  • May 23, 2011
    ginsengaddict
    Useful Notes or Just For Fun. It doesn't really have any YMMV value.
  • May 26, 2011
    neoYTPism
    What about potholing to it in works that have it? Are you allowed potholing to useful notes pages in YMMV or main pages for works?
  • May 26, 2011
    Tifforo
    In Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney: Trials and Tribulations, Victor Kudo makes several of these. "I never make mistakes! I always cross my 'i's and dot my 't's!" "My memory is perfect! I can't remember the last time I forgot something!"

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