Line #58 YMMV/TheIliad


1	* AlternateAesopInterpretation: Did Homer intend the ''Iliad'' to be an anti-war or pro-war piece? It's spawned countless debates among scholars and critics.
2	* AlternateCharacterInterpretation:
3	** Some believe Achilles and Patroclus to have been not just best friends, but lovers, which adds another dimension to Achilles' behavior after Patroclus' death. This interpretation is mentioned in Plato's ''Literature/{{Symposium}}'' as well as other authors like Creator/{{Aeschylus}}, Pindar, and Aeschines, making it OlderThanFeudalism itself, and early 21st century portrayals take that interpretation as well, such as ''Literature/TheSongOfAchilles'' and ''VideoGame/{{Hades}}''. Different classical sources have even put forth arguments as to who qualified for who out of LoverAndBeloved.
4	** Achilles' refusal to continue fighting and taking Agamemnon's generous bribe makes a bit [[FridgeBrilliance more sense]] when you consider the prophecy that he will die if he fights in the war. Since in the book the Greeks know it is the last year of the war, Achilles knows that every battle he takes part in could be his last, which might explain his rather wild and unhinged personality.
5	** Is Achilles's rage towards Agamemnon for taking Briseis truly a case of narcissism and entitlement, or out of fear that Agamemnon would rape Briseis? While she is technically a spoil of war, [[AmbiguousSituation it's never confirmed outright that her relationship with Achilles is sexual]]. And since Patroclus suggests to Achilles that he should marry her, which was almost unheard of for spear-wives, it's possible that their relationship may have been solely romantic, or even platonic. Achilles may have just been keeping her as a "prisoner" as a way to keep her safe from the other Achaeans.
6	** Did Helen [[AllWomenAreLustful go with Paris willingly]] and then get homesick after years of contentedness? Was she [[UnusualEuphemism abducted]] and kept as a glorified prisoner for ''ten years''? Or did she just make a really bad lapse in judgment, but was otherwise a decent person? Or did she get date raped by Aphrodite/Paris?
7	*** For whatever it's worth, in some translations of the ''Odyssey'', the sequel ostensibly written by the same author, Helen claims to have left with Paris due to divine compulsion clouding her mind.
8	** Likewise, did Paris take Helen out of love or lust? The latter seems more likely, since 'the most beautiful woman' was his reward from Aphrodite. He certainly does not seem to hold any real affection for her (or for anyone, really).
9	** Is Hector's request to Achilles to give the loser of their duel full burial rites evidence of his honor (despite his [[JerkassBall prior attempt to desecrate Patroclus's body]]) or is it a desperate plea for mercy because he knows Achilles will kill him?
10	** Is Nestor a wise leader whose [[CassandraTruth good council is ignored]] by the brash youths at war or is he a ManipulativeBastard who's [[BatmanGambit playing the other Greek leaders]] for the greater good of the Greek coalition? (The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive.)
11	** Who is the real hero of the Iliad - Achilles or Hector?
12	** While it is not unreasonable to say that Hector is defending his homeland, a different view has been presented by others, most prominently in the 1962 film ''Fury of Achilles'' by Achilles himself, that Hector doesn't fight for Troy, but for Paris. He may criticize Paris and correctly call him evil-hearted, but the fact is he is still fighting to keep a woman with her abductor rather than returning her to her rightful husband.
13	** While some see Hector's attempt to desecrate Patroclus' body as an example of JerkassBall, others see it as Hector's true character showing through the cracks of the mask of nobility he wears. Deep down, he is not any better than his Achaean counterpart and might even be worse. The only reason Hector is viewed heroically is because he is defending home, and even that is debatable as he might actually be fighting for Paris instead. Had an Achaean prince abducted a Trojan or Trojan-allied princess, Hector would have been doing the same as Achilles on an Achaean battlefield.
14	** Similar to the above, some people also refer to Patroclus becoming a "natural-born killer" in Achilles' armour as being an example of JerkassBall. To others however, it just shows the difference of how people can be in and out of combat, while also implying that Patroclus is just that good a combatant.
15	** While Priam asking Helen who the Achaean leaders are might be seen as a funny moment, a Pre-Iliad episode depicts Odysseus and Menelaus arguing that Helen be returned before the war started. After nine years can Priam not be bothered to even remember them or is his memory starting to go?
16	* AntiClimaxBoss: You'd probably expect some sort of long (dare we say, epic?) duel for the final fight between the greatest fighters of the Greeks and the Trojans. Instead, Hector runs from Achilles in terror for a while before Athena tricks him into thinking his brother Deiphobus was there to help him and waste throwing his spear at Achilles, Hector draws his sword and runs at Achilles to what he is certain is his doom, Achilles then fatally wounds him in his collar bone with a single strike, and that's all she wrote. Er, [[{{Creator/Homer}} he]] said.
17	* CommonKnowledge:
18	** Many will refer to pre-''Iliad'' and post-''Iliad'' Trojan War episodes, such as the sacrifice of Iphigenia or the Trojan Horse, as coming from the Iliad. The ''Iliad'' does not cover that long a time span, only going from Agamemnon claiming Achilles' war prize Briseis to the funeral of Hector. The Trojan Horse is alluded to briefly in the ''Odyssey'', and a fuller account is found in ''Literature/TheAeneid''.
19	** People also refer to Achilles and Patroclus as lovers, but despite them both being examples of AmbiguouslyBi, they are only portrayed as close friends and kinsmen. The portrayal of them as lovers is Post-Homeric, as suggested by Creator/{{Plato}}, Creator/{{Aeschylus}}, Pindar, and others, and even then, Creator/{{Xenophon}}, a contemporary of Plato, insisted that Achilles and Patroclus were just good friends and nothing more.
20	** Achilles has no AchillesHeel here. That concept was created by ''Literature/TheAchilleid''. In fact, Asteropaios successfully injures his hand with a spear.
21	** That Patroclus is killed because he's mistaken for Achilles. While wearing Achilles' armor does initially deceive the Trojans into thinking Achilles has returned, they've figured out his identity by the time he kills Sarpedon.
22	** Lately, that Achilles [[DidYouJustPunchOutCthulhu defeats a river god]] in his rage. He challenges the river god but nearly drowns before being rescued by divine intervention.
23	* ContinuityLockOut: The story was written at a time when it was assumed you'd know all the continuity already. There are names and names and names and dynasties and political allegiances and many other confusing contexts that are glanced over without much explanation. Find a copy with plenty of annotations or have Wikipedia open next to you, or information overload sets in pretty quick. It's hardly impossible to enjoy it even without knowing every detail, though.
24	* DiagnosedByTheAudience:
25	** Let's just say that the mental state of Achilles is a long debate among critics, psychoanalysts, and readers. However, the most popular theories is that Achilles either has [[TheNarcissist narcissism]], [[TheSociopath anti-social personality disorder]], BPD, or some combination. He's incredibly moody, has extreme emotional reactions to insults or slights, entitled, and a LackOfEmpathy a lot of times. Though, [[PetTheDog he also has moments of empathy for others]], feels a strong attachment for [[LivingEmotionalCrutch Patroclus and Briseis]], and feels genuine remorse for some of his worst actions, meaning that it is unlikely he is a sociopath. Especially when you consider that Achilles is technically [[ChildSoldiers a child soldier]] and joined the Trojan War as a teenager, and much of his cruelty is mostly a part of his culture's norms.
26	** Nonfiction book ''Achilles in Vietnam: Combat Trauma and the Undoing of Character'', by American psychiatrist Jonathan Shay, compairs ''Iliad'''s characters psychologcal depiction and post-traumatic stress disorder in Vietnam War's veterans, pointing out the ''Iliad'' may be one of the earliest depiction of PTSD.
27	* DracoInLeatherPants:
28	** Hector. Yes, he's a better person than Achilles, but numerous acts of stupidity on his part, most notably his [[FatalFlaw overconfidence]], to say nothing of his JerkassBall moment of trying to decapitate Patroclus' corpse, are inevitably glossed over.
29	** Achilles, for that matter, gets subjected to ProtagonistCenteredMorality where Patroclus's death in battle is a heinous act of murder but the numerous people ''he'' kills, including Briseis's family, are brushed off.
30	* EnsembleDarkhorse:
31	** Aeneas. Son of Venus and one of the few Trojan survivors of the war, he's a minor hero who only has two major scenes (both of which ends with him being rescued by the Gods). And yet the Romans would write [[Literature/TheAeneid a whole epic about him.]]
32	** Cassandra, who only has one scene in the book but promptly milks it for all its worth. The fact that she is probably [[TheWoobie the second most sympathetic]] to modern audiences after Hector also helps. This gets to the point where her role is usually expanded on either by [[CompositeCharacter combining it with a lot of the other female characters at Troy]], writing more scenes for her, or just outright usurping the role of another character from one of the epic's sequels.
33	** Diomedes has his share of fans, mainly for being such a badass, but he is also one of the more overlooked characters. The fact that he is sympathetic and level-headed on top of physically competent helps.
34	* FairForItsDay: Modern readers are often surprised to find Helen portrayed as lonely and conflicted (especially with Ancient Greece's [[HeManWomanHater misogynist attitude]]), when she was historically the butt of ''many'' insults and jokes about the supposed [[AllWomenAreLustful lustfulness of all women]]. The attitude of the Heroic Age Greeks was different, as we see in Homer. Yes, women are spoils of war and they are portrayed as being submissive and loyal, but the pathos of their condition isn't glossed over. Briseis is a case in point; yes, Achilles killed her husband, but [[PetTheDog he's been kind to her personally]] and, urged by Patroclus, even promised to marry her. No wonder she's loyal to Achilles.
35	* FanPreferredCouple:
36	** Helen/Hector. Helen is/was the queen of Sparta (though before [[ProudWarriorRaceGuy the Doric invasion and the setting up of the warrior society people associate with the name]]) and derides Paris for letting Hector do all the fighting. Hector is an awesome warrior who [[KnightInShiningArmor treats her courteously]], [[HonorBeforeReason even though he has every right not to]]. Since Helen openly wishes that Paris was more like Hector and Andromache is rather flat as a character, you can see where people are coming from.
37	** Achilles and Patroclus, even from ancient Greek times. Their scenes together are probably one of the most heart-wrenching in the book.
38	* SugarWiki/FunnyMoments: When [[DidYouJustScamCthulhu Hera seduces Zeus to distract him]], he describes how attractive she is by comparing her with [[LongList some of the other women he's slept with]]. [[OverlyLongGag It takes about 20 lines in the original Greek.]]
39	* SugarWiki/HeartwarmingMoments: A few:
40	** In book 6, when Hector says goodbye to his wife Andromache and their infant son, Astyanax. Hector reaches for the boy, who shrinks back in fear from this big guy in the bronze helmet with the horse-hair crest. The boy's parents laugh, and Hector takes off his helmet and sets it aside, then holds his son in his arms for a bit. Also a Tear Jerker, since father and son are both doomed to die (as any ancient Greek reading or hearing the poem would already know).
41	** When Achilles and Priam mourn their losses.
42	** When Diomedes rescues Nestor from Hector, when everyone on the Greek side (including badasses that have fought against and are equal to Hector such as Ajax) left the old man to die. Hell the two guys actually manage to turn the tables and ''almost kill Hector'', Zeus himself had to send three lighting bolts in front of their chariot before they were gonna single-highhandedly change the whole story of the Trojan War.
43	* HilariousInHindsight: When it's the time of AchillesInHisTent, he's at one point offered Lesbian slaves (that is, women native to the island of Lesbos) to rejoin the battle. They are described as "They whom all men lust after", which is a sentence that doesn't have to be changed at all [[GirlOnGirlIsHot for modern audiences to understand an implication out of it]] (if not actually the same implication).
44	* HoYay: Achilles and Patroclus are one of the most famous examples. In the book, they're called "really close friends". People have been speculating on this since ancient times, with some of the famous proponents/shippers for this being Creator/{{Plato}} and Creator/{{Aeschylus}}.
45	* JerkassWoobie: Achilles, after Patroclus is killed because of his arrogance. This is even more prominent if you think they are lovers.
46	* SugarWiki/MomentOfAwesome: There are a lot. Listing off a few:
47	** The final battle of Achilles vs. Hector.
48	** Ajax the Greater vs Hector, it lasts a day and ends in a draw
49	** Achilles fighting the River God, who was pissed off because Achilles was choking him with the corpses of Trojans
50	** Odysseus chewing out Agamemnon.
51	** Diomedes injures two gods, one of whom is Ares, the god of war, in a single day.
52	** Patroclus taking the field. He beats back the Trojans and it takes divine intervention to stop him from conquering Troy then and there.
53	** Achilles' initial return to battle after the death of Patroclus: his armour is lost, so he can't actually fight. Instead, he climbs up onto the ramparts, and roars his battle cry at the Trojans until they flee in terror.
54	** Helen verbally [[DidYouJustFlipOffCthulhu bitch-slapping]] Aphrodite. The Goddess says she should go to Paris's bed. Her response boils down to "If you think the bed needs filling, why don't you go screw him yourself?
55	* OneSceneWonder: Cassandra for the virtue of being an absolute LargeHam.
56	* RonTheDeathEater: Helen of Troy is frequently remembered by the Ancient Greeks and modern audience as a cheater who caused the Trojan War despite this epic depicting her more as a victim of circumstance. Doesn't help that many other characters who far outstrip her in terms of characterization and popularity like Achilles, Hector and Cassandra all got caught up in the Trojan War and die horribly because of it.
57	* {{Squick}}: There are moments. Agamemnon [[KickTheDog casually taking Briseis from Achilles as his own sex slave]] is particularly nasty.
58	* TooBleakStoppedCaring: For a modern audience at least. There's little point to be interested in the story because [[ForegoneConclusion Troy is doomed to fall]] and the Greek 'heroes' keep captured women as {{sex slave}}s or trade them like objects and commit what today would be considered war crimes. Most of the characters on both side either die or will die in later events.
59	* ValuesDissonance: Not surprisingly, since the poem is estimated to have been written during the seventh or eighth century BC and ancient Greek values were very different from modern ones.
60	** It is difficult for many modern readers to not instinctively side with the Trojans as a whole and Hector in particular. After all, the values that he embodies are still widely held, and nearly the entire western tradition has considered Hector the more heroic one.[[note]]For example, Creator/{{Dante\|Alighieri}} put him in Limbo with the virtuous pagans instead of suffering like Achilles in the Second Circle. He was also one of the Medieval Nine Worthies: nine historical or legendary figures found to be paragons of chivalry. Admittedly, Dante was a Roman, who considered themselves descended from Trojans, and naturally took their side.[[/note]]
61	** The mindset of Achilles was more valid back in the Heroic Age of Greek warfare, which glorified individual exploits and honor. It is more alien to most Western cultures today, and even very different than, say, the military discipline of another ancient city-state, Sparta.
62	** The whole concept of a war waged over a woman (willingly or forced by Aphrodite?) leaving an arranged marriage may be uncomfortable by today's standards. Of course it seems that Helen is now being kept in Troy against her will.
63	*** Paris had also stolen much treasure from Menelaus; this is mentioned a lot in the epic.
64	*** In some versions of the myth Helen herself chooses Menelaus from among her suitors.
65	** The modern reader doesn't get why [[TheDeadHaveNames all warriors who died are named even if only in that scene]], or the ''actual'' purpose of the [[EpicCatalog Catalogue of Ships]]: every warrior had been trained and armed through the hard work and the support of dozens of civilians, [[WhatASenselessWasteOfHumanLife and the list and names explained just how wasteful the war had been]][[note]] Remember this takes place in the Bronze Age, long before the times of the Industrial Revolution and mass production of equipment. A modern equivalent could be to list ''all'' the warships that fought during UsefulNotes/WorldWarII and all the soldiers known to have died in such war[[/note]].
66	** There is a famous scene when Andromache suggests that Hector fight from the relative safety of the walls instead, pointing out the she is a stranger in the city and neither she nor their son has anyone else to rely on if Hector dies. He declines, tries to hug his child, but the child is terrified and doesn't recognize his father in the scary helmet over his head. He takes off the helmet, and says something like: "Gods if I have ever pleased you, now hear my prayer: let my son grow up to be a great man so that his people say he is greater than his father..." To the modern mind, the continuing line is an aversion of cuteness, while to the Greeks it was probably natural: "And let him come home safely from combat with the bloody armor of his slain enemy and make his mummy glad." Hector does not mention himself in this wish for his son's future as he probably does not expect to live to see it.
67	** What happens if in war a soldier surrenders and begs to be taken as a hostage? Kill him, especially because if you're victorious you'll get to loot his home anyway! This lesson gets spelled out twice by the Greek heroes, even.
68	** During Patroclus' funeral games, Achilles offers some of his loot as prizes. For one event, the winner gets a bronze tripod, worth twelve heads of cattle, the runner up gets a female slave, worth ''four''.
69	** The heroes' fixation on material gains can come off as greedy to modern (or even not-so-modern) audiences. At the time, winning riches through war was a tangible sign of your honour and status.
70	* ValuesResonance:
71	** The scene of Hector comforting his son who doesn't recognize Hector with his helmet on and praying for his son to be greater than him still has a timeless appeal as long as there are fathers who care for their children...and there are fathers who have even shaved their beard off while they have a baby.
72	** Even enemies should show respect and compassion to one another. There's a reason why the famous scene between Priam and Achilles is still regarded as a positive message ''to this day''.
73	** Readers are often surprised by how, even in comparison to most modern literature (as in from the late 18th to early 20th century), the female characters in the poem have ''agency'', and are shown to have their own thoughts, feelings, and desires. Indeed, the Heroic Age that story came from was far less hateful towards women than one would think.
74	%%* {{Wangst}}: Achilles can come off this way to a modern audience.
75	* TheWoobie:
76	** Helen needs a hug. An entire war happens because of her decision, as well as the fact that the other Trojan women clearly dislike her (with good reason). She doesn't even ''want'' to be there anymore, but Aphrodite threatens her with death into staying and even sleeping with Paris, whom she now loathes.
77	** So does Menelaus. His wife leaves him for another lover (bear in mind that in most versions of the backstory, Helen married him for love), he isn't an awesome fighter, and many of the other Greeks resent him for being one of the causes of the war.
78	** Priam. The scene where he enters the Greek camp and begs Achilles for Hector's body is a real tearjerker.
79	** Cassandra, especially knowing her final fate in ''Theatre/TheOresteia''.
80	** Andromache has already endured the deaths of her parents and all of her numerous brothers, either in the conquest of her home city or shortly afterward. Then her husband goes to fight on the frontline despite her pleas and she passes out as she watches his corpse being dragged away, knowing their infant son will likely share the fate of the rest of her family.

Context YMMV / TheIliad