Line #33 YMMV/TheCloneSaga


1	!!YMMV items associated with the Clone Saga overall:
2	* ArcFatigue: Combined with {{Padding}} and EndingFatigue. Amusingly, DC was having [[Series/LoisAndClark its own problems with clone sagas]] at around this time, with similar results.
3	* ArchivePanic: Taking into account the number of issues, miniseries, and one-shots that make up the Clone Saga, it'd take you some time to catch up on the series in its entirety. Indeed, [[WebVideo/AtopTheFourthWall Linkara]] once lifted up all ''seven'' omnibuses for the Clone Saga and has pointed out that, even with him bouncing around storylines, he'll never actually run out of stories to talk about.
4	* AudienceAlienatingEra: This is widely considered by most fans to be the start of a decay in Spider-Man's general quality that it never recovered from:
5	** One of the things that may not be immediately apparent is that before the Clone Saga, Peter Parker was going through some changes in an attempt to make him DarkerAndEdgier. Among other things, he was [[ThatManIsDead abandoning his Peter Parker identity]] and [[SanitySlippage calling himself "the Spider"]]. It's likely that the initial interest in Ben Reilly was because at the time, ''he was more like Spider-Man than Peter Parker was''. No wonder some thought Peter was the clone. Oh, and the event that caused this dark turn was another story that went on too long: the supposed return of Peter's parents (the trend was already in place). It has been alleged that the writers [[IntendedAudienceReaction did this on purpose]] to make people accept Ben as the original and Peter the clone. Danny Fingeroth, the editor/writer behind the "Peter's parents" story, said that he started that plot without any idea where to take it and spun wheels until the writers got tired of it. Which did set a pattern for the Clone Saga's worst practices.
6	** The story also featured one for Lizard. Someone got the idea for Curt Connors to be stuck in mutated-Lizard form. No one--not even a lot of people involved in the Clone Saga--liked it, so near the end, it was revealed that Connors didn't mutate and the "mutated" Lizard got {{retcon}}ned into being an experiment that Connors did in an attempt to rid himself of the Lizard.
7	** On an overall sense, in the scheme of Spider-Man's comics publication history, the Clone Saga undermined the integrity of the main continuity. While not all stories between 1962-1993 were good and not everything published during the Saga was bad, Spider-Man was a corner in Marvel where realism reigned. Characters who died stayed dead, stories and status-quo changes had consequences and moved organically from one era to the next. There was CharacterDevelopment and growth, and there were never any large-scale continuity-destroying retcons. Not everyone necessarily liked these changes, or approved of the direction of the stories, but there was a sense that nobody would just undo something by saying something never happened and that [[ArcWelding new shifts would organically build]] on what existed. The Clone Saga absolutely destroyed those norms for good. The major point of the Clone Saga was telling at least three or four generations that the Spider-Man they had read for 20 years, [[AppealToObscurity based on a story only a few of them knew or remembered]] and even then in a form that has nothing to do with the original, didn't happen. Characters who were dead (Jackal) were revived in a way that was unrecognizable. The overall conspiracy and arcane clones of Peter went entirely against the kitchen sink/SmallStepsHero nature of Spider-Man's story. The one great story from the era (Issue #400, Aunt May's death) was retconned in an absurd way two years later that most fans saw as vandalizing a great story.
8	* BaseBreakingCharacter: For some, Ben Reilly typifies '90s comics industry excess, while for others, he's a fascinating look into WhatCouldHaveBeen: a new Spider-Man, with his own set of struggles and supporting characters.
9	* BrokenAesop: The second Clone Saga concretely breaks the aesop of the first one which was moving on, not being fixated on the past, and Peter realizing that he's not the same guy who fell for Gwen anymore. The second Clone Saga is all about writers trying to revive the days of single swinging Peter, falling into the curse of nostalgia that the first one showed was toxic and awful.
10	* BrokenBase: Arguably the entire Saga, except you'll find very few people who thought the whole thing was good, and nowadays most agree that it had some good ideas, but they could have been done better.
11	* CriticalBacklash: Many people rediscovering it in retrospective and poking around individual comics or stories can be rather surprised that the era holds such a poor reputation. Much of this is because a lot of said reputation came from the ArcFatigue of the same plot hanging over three years of multiple books and ping-ponging back and forth multiple times, rather than any single story being truly terrible (well, barring ''Maximum Clonage'', anyway, which really was ''that'' bad).
12	* CriticalDissonance:
13	-->'''Glenn Greenberg''' (editor/writer): I feel the need to point out that, despite popular belief, the Clone Saga significantly boosted sales on the ''Spider-Man'' books. At a time when the comics industry was starting to head downward, with sales dropping across the board on every title, the Spider-Man line was bucking the trend, with sales holding steady and even increasing each month. Of course, the downside to it was that everyone on the business side of Marvel was pushing us to keep the Clone Saga going for as long as possible, to milk it for all it was worth.
14	* EndingFatigue: One of the main strikes against the Clone Saga. It was supposed to last about six months, but dragged out for ''two years''. The comics were selling well (a stark contrast to others at the time) and ExecutiveMeddling forced them to drag it out. "The Trial of Peter Parker" storyline eventually reveals that Peter is the clone and Ben the original, leading into the six-part ''Maximum Clonage'' story. That story ends with the Jackal's death and his plans foiled... but the overall saga keeps going because neither Peter nor Ben can decide "who will wear the webs." Eventually, Peter and MJ get PutOnABus, leaving Ben the sole spider hero in town... but he stays as the Scarlet Spider. Marvel decided to milk it by printing ''ComicBook/ScarletSpider'' issues for a couple of months (basically taking a cue from ''ComicBook/AgeOfApocalypse'') before finally having him become Spider-Man (albeit in a modified costume). That would've been the end of it, but fans hated the reveal of Ben as the original and sales kept going down. So, Peter and MJ came back, a Spider-Man skeleton was discovered to create ambiguity about the results and a mysterious villain named Gaunt turned up. Things were going to be settled during "Blood Brothers" (another six-parter), but ComicBook/{{Onslaught}} was coming up and Marvel didn't want either story stepping on the other's toes. Some months down the line, the "Revelations" four-parter happened and finally put an end to things. Even people that feel [[CriticalBacklash the Clone Saga's reputation has been blown out of proportion]] admit it's longer than it needed to be.
15	* EnsembleDarkHorse: The Scarlet Spider's CivvieSpandex hoodie costume is still well-liked today for its simple, yet cool design. Whenever there's a new Spider-Man game coming out, the outfit is usually on several fan costume wishlists.
16	* FanNickname: Spider-Ben for Ben Reilly when he takes over as Spider-Man.
17	* HilariousInHindsight:
18	** The whole thing was an attempt to get an unmarried Spider-Man. If that [[ComicBook/OneMoreDay sounds familiar]], you should note that [[WhatCouldHaveBeen at one point, Mephisto was going to be the]] AuthorsSavingThrow, via a ShootTheShaggyDog StableTimeLoop. The editors at the time thought this was a bad idea and abandoned the concept. Then Creator/JoeQuesada [[ComicBook/OneMoreDay picked it up again...]]
19	** TheReveal that Scrier is actually [[spoiler: [[CollectiveIdentity multiple people pretending to be one guy]] by wearing identical {{white mask\|of doom}}s and hooded {{black cloak}}s...]] [[Film/{{Scream}} sounds awfully familiar, don't you agree?]]
20	** Both [[https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Web_of_Spider-Man_Vol_1_117 the cover]] for ''Web of Spider-Man'' #117 and the teaser for Spidercide's debut at the end of ''Spider-Man'' #56 make references to "the Spiderverse" years before [[ComicBook/SpiderVerse the 2014-2015 multiversal crossover of the same name]].
21	* HumorDissonance:
22	** You can tell that the writers wanted the Jackal to be seen as a LaughablyEvil LargeHam in the same vein as ComicBook/{{Deadpool}} or ComicBook/TheJoker, but his constant wisecracks and pithy remarks make him come across as annoying and smug - and the jokes themselves are either too weak to make an impact or are otherwise [[MoodWhiplash inappropriately timed and interrupt the flow of the story]]. The fact that this isn't anything like how Jackal was when he started out makes it more annoying.
23	** Jack, who was intended to be the PluckyComicRelief of the story, is also subject to attempts at humor that just feel forced and inappropriate.
24	* {{Misblamed}}: Since the most well-known or rather proverbial and famous version of ''The Clone Saga'' is the one in TheNineties, and it claimed that they were picking up a dangling thread from the story from TheSeventies, many blame the KudzuPlot of the latter on the first saga and for its decision to pull an AmbiguousCloneEnding. The fact is as anyone who read the first story or re-reads it can tell you is that the original clone saga gave an ironclad reason why Peter was the real deal at the end and there was never any ambiguity intended by writer or perceived by the readers, and the entire premise of the second clone saga is a giant bizarre {{retcon}} and comical misreading to start with:
25	** For one thing, the first clone saga was published in 1976, and for nearly twenty years in-between characters like the Jackal and so on were forgotten and buried, to a large extent it was a plot point entirely forgotten about by most comics fans and general readers until TheNineties revived it. Creator/GerryConway's first clone saga began as a response to the backlash of Gwen Stacy's death and was commissioned by Creator/StanLee as a backdoor to potentially bring her back. Conway and Romita created the idea of a Gwen who returns being a clone as a compromise. If fans didn't like Peter and Mary Jane's romance, then this Gwen would have been made the real deal then and there. Since they did like it, Conway was able to spin a story that mostly served as a big TakeThat to Gwen Stacy's posthumous fans. Since Conway wanted to develop Mary Jane and Peter as ''the'' love story of the series, he wrote the story as a {{Deconstruction}} of fans not being able to deal with death, fixating on a DoppelgangerReplacementLoveInterest and otherwise liking Gwen just because she died (as Conway pointed out in interviews hardly anyone has a shred or clue how she really was like as a character when she was alive and largely fetishize her for her death) which he illustrated in the villain Jackal who was a stand-in for, to use a modern phrase, "salty Gwen fans" and painting their stand-in as a creepy necrophiliac professor.
26	** The climax where the villain Jackal summons a clone of Spider-Man to fight the real Spider-Man illustrated this since the clone, like all of Jackal's clones are fixated on the past, on Gwen, and as such are incapable of true growth and change, and it was established that Miles built the clones after Gwen's death. The reason Peter knew he was the real deal was because since he had moved on and was now in love with Mary Jane, he can't be the clone otherwise he'd be stuck in the past. It was fundamentally an action-comic metaphor and plot point to illustrate the love story of Peter and Mary Jane, which also made a larger point about grief, toxic nostalgia, and thinking about the future and not the past. The second clone saga practically ignored this, and the entire role of Gwen's death in the motivation leading up to it, and it ended up proving, on account of the writer's motivations for going back to the days of "single Pete" the same mentality of toxic nostalgia that the first one was deconstructing. Conway found the unfurling of the second Clone Saga darkly comical and in fact saw it [[IllTakeThatAsACompliment as a backhanded compliment]] and a pretty hilarious case of [[ComicallyMissingThePoint people missing the point]]:
27	---> '''Creator/GerryConway''': "When I did find the gist of the story, that the previous ten years of Spider-Man stories didn't happen, I thought, this is a wonderful thing for a writer, because it means when I left the title, the book stopped."
28	** Conway in ''The Spectacular Spider-Man Annual #8'' did his best to bottle and tie up the loose ends of the first clone saga, insisting that the Jackal did not clone anyone, and that he was a lying hack scientist who tortured a poor woman, and that the so-called Spider-Man clone Peter fought was definitely not the real deal. He made it, as writer Glenn Greenberg complained, especially hard for the Second Clone Saga to get past out of his backdoors to undo the lingering loose ends of the First Clone saga which the writing team were insistent on reviving it.
29	* MoralEventHorizon: The Jackal unleashes a biological weapon on a town, killing over two thousand people and leaving only one survivor, who is kidnapped and experimented on by the Jackal.
30	* OlderThanTheyThink: For all the grief that the Clone Saga gets for being an executive and marketing driven stunt gone wild changed to later attempting to bring Spider-Man "back to basics", it's often forgotten that the so-called "first" clone saga written by Creator/GerryConway largely as a sequel to ''ComicBook/TheNightGwenStacyDied'' was basically an executive mandated demand by Creator/StanLee to bring Gwen BackFromTheDead and go "back to basics", not really a story that Conway wanted to write. He did so anyway, mostly to prove why Gwen can't come back, since the entire story showed why the clone as a DoppelgangerReplacementLoveInterest wasn't the true Gwen that Peter remembered but an embodiment of Peter's guilt and that his true feelings were for Mary Jane whose relationship helped him move past Gwen[[note]]And in the opinion of Conway, was far more real and meaningful than it ever was with Gwen[[/note]]. Conway pointed out that the first clone story was never intended to [[OpeningACanOfClones open a can of clones]] or really as a science-fiction story, it was a comic-book metaphor for dealing with grief, loss and moving on[[note]]the denouement of the first Saga has Peter realizing that since he loves MJ, and that relationship happened after Gwen's death and him moving past it and experiencing CharacterDevelopment, that meant he was the real deal as opposed to the clones who were fixated and stuck in the past which also motivated his refusal to check the results since he was going with his feelings[[/note]].
31	* {{Padding}}: See ExecutiveMeddling. It led to complaints of ArcFatigue, which was one of the bigger complaints of the Clone Saga. On the other hand, this was an unfortunate trend in the Spider-Man comics already.
32	* ReplacementScrappy: Ben Reilly was generally well-liked in his Scarlet Spider days, but the moment he was declared the original Peter Parker, the fandom saw him as this. Things only got worse once he officially became Spider-Man. Crashing sales led to a reversal as quickly as possible.
33	* TheScrappy:
34	** The Jackal wears out his welcome pretty quickly, thanks in no small part due to his [[GambitRoulette needlessly complicated plan]] [[JustAsPlanned that works even though it shouldn't]], [[MotiveDecay his equally confusing motives]], the fact that [[IdiotBall characters keep trusting him]] despite how ObviouslyEvil he is, and the fact that [[CharacterFilibuster he never stops talking.]]
35	** Jack, the diminutive Peter Parker clone who dresses and acts like the Jackal, is also not well liked because, despite his being the designated comic relief, his antics feel forced and excessive - and, like Jackal, he seemingly never shuts up.
36	** Judas Traveller and Scrier, for being [[GenericDoomsdayVillain rather bland villains]] with no personality aside from how mysterious they are. What certainly didn't help was the contrived, nonsensical way the two characters were retconned at the end of the saga: Judas Traveller [[spoiler: turns out not to be an omniscient demigod after all, just a mutant with [[MasterOfIllusion illusionary powers]] and delusions of grandeur.]] Scrier, [[spoiler: rather than being a single vaguely-supernatural entity who inexplicably showed up everywhere, was actually [[CollectiveIdentity a large group of ordinary people dressed up as one guy.]] This explanation [[VoodooShark fails to answer any of the reader's questions about the character]], such as how he was able to walk through walls and such if he didn't actually have any superpowers.]] [[CreatorsPest Even the writers didn't like them that much]].
37	* SeasonalRot: Many feel that the saga started strong with an interesting hook, but a combination of ExecutiveMeddling and the writers' inability to figure out a satisfying solution caused things to fall apart.
38	* TakeThatScrappy: Someone must've caught on that the audience didn't like Jack very much; in "Smoke & Mirrors," when Jack starts doing his usual antics, the Jackal backhands him across the room and shouts "You're annoying me!"
39	* TearJerker:
40	** The death of [[spoiler:Aunt May]]. Made less so when it was revealed she was a genetically-modified actor after the Clone Saga.
41	** Ben Reilly gets impaled by the goblin glider saving Peter and falls several stories. Ben is still hanging on by the time Peter/Spider-Man is able to get to him.
42	--->'''Spider-Man:''' Ben! You've got to hang on. I'll get you to a hospital...\
43	'''Ben:''' Peter, come closer. I have things to say that we'd both rather keep from those looking on. From this day on... clone or not... ''you'' are Spider-Man. ''You'' have to carry on for me. Take care of my "niece," Peter... tell her about... her Uncle Ben. ''(dies)''\
44	'''Spider-Man:''' [[LittleNo No. No. No.]]
45	* VindicatedByHistory: Not by much, as the story is still largely disliked, but characters originating from this arc -- specifically, Ben Reilly and Kaine Parker -- have been reevaluated over the years, and have had enough popularity to return to being mainstays of the comics. Norman Osborn's return also proved to be genuinely popular with fans, and led to some of the better ''Spider-Man'' stories after ''The Clone Saga''.
46	* {{Wangst}}: Possibly justified, but a lot of it can also be considered bad writing. It would probably be more tolerable if the series was shorter and the angst moments weren't done to pad out issues.
47
48	!!YMMV tropes associated with the Ultimate Clone Saga:
49	* TheyChangedItNowItSucks: Fans' reaction to [[spoiler:changing Doc Ock's powers from {{technopath}}y to basically making him ComicBook/{{Magneto}}-lite]].
50
51	!!YMMV tropes associated with the 2009-2010 miniseries:
52	* AngstWhatAngst: [[spoiler:Peter writes off Jackal telling him he’s a clone and Harry saying it’s not as the words of liars and lunatics and doesn’t seem to worry too much about it. This is at least justified in Harry's case, since Harry immediately admitted he was lying to mess with them.]]
53	* BrokenBase: Was the series an improvement on the original story that told the story as the original creators intended? Or is it ultimately still a lackluster story filled with LyingCreator moments due to behind-the-scenes commentary?
54	* SugarWiki/HeartwarmingMoments: Kaine meeting his "niece" for the first time, and being [[StunnedSilence rendered speechless]] when he discovers Peter and Mary Jane named her May.

Context YMMV / TheCloneSaga