| 1 | [[foldercontrol]] |
| 2 | [[folder:Elder Vitae]] |
| 3 | I hope someone sees this: In the game you can drink elder vitae blood packs. But shouldn't that get you blood bound to said elder? |
| 4 | * ''Technically'' it ''might''. Emphasis on each of the words. Yes, if you do drink blood from the same Elder, you would be bloodbound. It's more than that, though, as that doesn't answer your question fully. First of all, you have to drink three times to become blood bound. While the first two stages of the blood bond do affect you, the first one in particular is pretty much mild as opposed to the utter subversion of the thoughts and feelings of the individual under a full blown blood bond. So, this means the condition is to drink three times from the same Elder. I can't remember how many Elder blood packs there are but they might not be as many. At least two of them come from Grout, who is dead, therefore of no problem at all. In fact, blood bonds can only exist towards "living" regnants, as Final Death shatters the bond. There is also another thing - the three drinks need to come on three different nights. So, technically, if you do drink the Vitae all in one night, you would not develop the full blood bond. Finally, it is possible the Vitae was treated to not have the blood bonding properties. Some blood magics (for example Thaumaturgy) should be capable of doing that. |
| 5 | * You may simply not meet the actual Elder donor of the blood, with them being elsewhere of dead, and thus not forced to display that bond. After all, judging by canonical texts, in this world you cannot shake a stick without hitting 2-3 Elders in the process. |
| 6 | * Vitae loses it's blood bonding powers seconds after hitting the air. |
| 7 | [[/folder]] |
| 8 | |
| 9 | [[folder:Split Personality Suicide]] |
| 10 | If Jeanette -is- Therese, how does she manage to shoot someone -else- if you get her to kill Therese? |
| 11 | * Easy - for all intents and purposes, Therese and Jeanette consider themselves separate beings. Their deranged mind perceives them as such. So if, say, Therese shot Jeanette, it's more or less symbolic for destroying that personality. However, for Therese it would seem like she shot and killed Jeanette. |
| 12 | * If you're wondering where the bullet went, the body is a vampire and the single bullet can't kill the body, only one or the other personality inside it. |
| 13 | [[/folder]] |
| 14 | |
| 15 | [[folder:Sexy Nosferatu]] |
| 16 | I just started the game, and I've got one already. So my character was "embraced" whilst having sex with the vampire that turned him. But when he wakes up, both of them are fully clothed, despite the fact that her underwear is still draped over the lamp and you can see their clothes still strewn all over the place. Also, what if I had chosen to start as a Nosferatu? How/why the hell was my guy having consensual sex with something that looks like a human/bat/demon-thingy hybrid? |
| 17 | * I never played a Nosferatu in the game but IIRC, in the tabletop one of the "obfuscate" levels allow you to disguise yourself to appear more human, that's probably what your sire did. |
| 18 | ** The Nosferatu introduction video confirms exactly that. Nos is actually very fun to play, don't believe the people who would have you hiding in sewers all day or creeping round obfuscated, it's not necessary. |
| 19 | ** [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKitSXWtZNA In Bloodlines]], the Nosferatu changed its appearance and looked like the PC Toreador, once in the execution s/he returned to its real appearance. That was how it managed to embrace somebody else. |
| 20 | * It's implied that the person they say is your Sire... isn't. Saying anything more would be a hell of a spoiler. |
| 21 | ** If you are trying to imply that Cain, the father of all, is the sire, I don't know from where did you get that evidence. It's evident that your sire is the one being killed. If they did it under orders of Cain or Jack, that's another topic. |
| 22 | *** I guess they mean the Protagonist's unusual level of power, which is nowhere near what you usually call "implied". Their bloodpool clearly indicates 8th generation, which is adequately powerful for the events of the game. The dialogue with Caine also contains nothing to deduce he was your real sire. I'd go so far as to say that Caine doesn't help you at all besides driving you around, and it fits him really well. |
| 23 | * And as for the clothes lying around, who's to say those were the clothes either character was wearing, could be that all the clothes are your sire's and they are just a slob. |
| 24 | ** Or that your Sire redressed you. Particularly appropriate for the Toreador: "What is s/he wearing? We need to sort that right now!" |
| 25 | * Your sire Embraced you during the foreplay. You didn't actually have sex, or probably even undress. |
| 26 | ** That, or RightThroughHisPants. |
| 27 | [[/folder]] |
| 28 | |
| 29 | [[folder:Shoot first, ask questions later]] |
| 30 | In the Santa Monica hospital, you have the opportunity to save a stabbing victim by feeding her your vampire blood, thereby giving her super-healing. She asks what you did, and I replied "I'm a vampire. I fed you my blood, to heal you." She screams "Doctor! Security!" and instantly there's a security guard there shooting me in the face point blank. That seems a little extreme don't you think, since he doesn't even know what's going on? Even if my guy was arrested, he wouldn't go to prison for that. |
| 31 | * It says right there in the manual that revealing your vampiric nature will "cause fear and panic in the streets and bring law enforcement, who would rather shoot than ask questions." It IS called the World of Darkness after all, so they're probably trained to shoot potential threats on sight. Considering how many you go through in the course of the game, it's an understandable sentiment. |
| 32 | * Another reason, hunters have connections. Even if the police officer doesn't believe in vampires, they'll be on the lookout none the less. |
| 33 | * Along similar lines, why is the natural history museum patrolled by heavily armed guards who will shoot and kill intruders on sight? |
| 34 | ** Most likely because the sarcophagus is held there. Not because of its historical value - given how interested supernatural parties are with the sarcophagus, it's not a stretch that somebody darranged this behind the scenes. However, guarding a historical artefact that was part of a crime scene would serve as a good pretext to sell it to museum employees. |
| 35 | * In the hospital's case though, it ''does'' make sense. You can't get past the front desk without lying about either fixing the computers, meaning you have no reason to be in a room with a mortally wounded girl, or that you're bringing her some personal items... but then why is she screaming for security if she's meant to know you? Either way, it blows your cover. The only other route in is sneaking in via the bloodbank door, in which case nobody will know who you are, you're a stranger in the room of a girl who just got injured, for all they know you're the one who hurt her and you've come to finish the job. |
| 36 | [[/folder]] |
| 37 | |
| 38 | [[folder:LaCroix vs. Anarchs]] |
| 39 | Is [=LaCroix=] really the worst Prince in the entire Camarilla? He's so terrified of the disapproval of the ANARCHS in the city (people who will hate him no matter what) that he spares your life before sending you on an obvious suicide mission. Then he proceeds to obviously betray you over and over again until you have no choice but assaulting his office Matrix style. Does it never occur to this guy to banish you? He could also have you killed at any point before you've carved your way through half of L.A's kindred and become an unstoppable death machine. Speaking of which, why does he turn on you AFTER you've done everything he's asked? |
| 40 | * [=LaCroix=] and the Camarilla are new in the city, and they don't want an open war (yet). It makes sense to try not to upset the Anarch too much, since they not only outnumber the Cam, but would cause a whole lot of ruckus and endanger the Masquerade. It's one thing to be ''resented'' no matter what by somebody but it's another thing to openly provoke the aforementioned somebody. He spares the PC, and doesn't banish him/her because it would almost amount to a death sentence. "So instead of decapitating this clueless fledgeling, I'll send him away from the city so he can either die, fall in the clutches of the Sabbat, or break the Masquerade." wouldn't provoke more sympathy from Nines and in fact may be worse. So the Prince sends him/her running errands that may have him/her killed. And why not? It's a win-win situation - [=LaCroix=] and his men don't get their hands dirty, the tasks get done, the subject is treated to the whole "Behold the glory of the Camarilla, and don't forget where you stand", also, if needed, the main character can be ''dealt with'', easily. If the PC gets killed - the Prince is rid of him/her without provoking a riot, and everybody lives happily ever after (or something). It's indicated, though, that [=LaCroix=] isn't the best Prince around (quality-wise) with him being power hungry, would-be diablerist and all. He turns on the PC for, well, being a power hungry, would-be diablerist, and the PC standing between him and removing the "would-be" from his description. Also, take out two birds with one stone - Anarch leader, thus weakening the Anarchs, and an unimportant fledgeling that just may prove too capable. ''And we wouldn't want that, now would we - a capable guy who could turn on us''. |
| 41 | ** Also, why does he turn on you after you've done everything for him? He's a Kindred over 100 years old, ergo he's a massive jerk. |
| 42 | ** Also he turns on you after wiping out the Sabbat because he's covering his ass. Whether you got him to admit to his alliance with the Kuei-jin or got angry and accusatory at him for it, you're the only person who knows about it and that makes you very dangerous. The Strauss/Camarilla ending reveals that this alliance by itself is high treason worthy of dethronement and death, even if he was using it to snuff out the Anarchs. It doesn't matter how useful or polite you are, you know his secret and it would ruin him if you decided to share it. By setting you up as Nines' killer, it's a win-win-win for him: he covers up his alliance, gets rid of his capable political rival, AND gets his new alliance with the Anarchs by posing you as the real villain. At the end of the day, you mean nothing to him. He has no sympathy for you, no attachment, and even your capability is not worth keeping around if it means you know about his very dirty laundry. The most honest thing Ming Xiao says is probably pointing out that you're a liability to him. |
| 43 | [[/folder]] |
| 44 | |
| 45 | [[folder:Sex of the Living Dead]] |
| 46 | The game seems pretty ambiguous on whether or not vampires have sex or not. Jeanette still has sex with Kine but she's insane. Mercurio says that Sebastian [=LaCroix=] told him that Kindred don't have sex either. However, Vivi pretty much drapes herself in sex and you can have sex with Romero in the graveyard. Are vampires non-functional corpses or aren't they? |
| 47 | * They ''can'' have sex but it's not enjoyable. Actually, they don't feel anything. Kindred can push blood around their body to appear living, and they can even use it to...function so they can have sex, but they neither have the physical or psychological need to do it, nor can they...erm, finish the job]]. They don't feel it any different, than say [[InnocentInnuendo polishing a sword or tickling a kitty]]. |
| 48 | * Jeanette states you can have sex but it's a little different, after having sex with her you lose 2 blood points, probably from ejaculation, you're trading fluids but just not the conventional ones. |
| 49 | * From a number of TabletopGame/VampireTheMasquerade sourcebooks: Vampires can have sex with humans or each other, but will only enjoy it if there's blood-drinking involved. [[{{Squick}} Take that]] [[NightmareFetishist for what you will.]] |
| 50 | ** On the other hand, the 20th Anniversary edition of Vampire the Masquerade states that vampires can (and do) bump uglies, and can even feel pleasure from it. But the fact remains that drinking blood is simply a hundred times better than the best orgasm, and thus few vampires bother with sex apart from using it to feed on mortals. Plus, vampire orgasms are still as messy as ever. |
| 51 | ** Blood replaces all of a living person's drives and desires in a vampire. The need for blood is the need for food, water, sex, comfort, companionship, love, safety, security, and everything else all wrapped up in one, and drinking blood feels like fulfilling all of those at the same time. ([[DependingOnTheWriter In some versions of the source material, at least]].) A vampire is capable of having sex, but it doesn't fulfill a need or desire for them, unless they take blood at the same time. And sex is actually ''very'' useful for that purpose, since these vampires have the KissOfTheVampire trope, if a vampire bites someone while having sex with them, all they'll really remember is ''having some really goddammned good sex!'' [=LaCroix=] is more likely just a rather prudish sort, who dismisses using sex to get blood, and since Ventrue have Dominate, which basically lets them force a mortal to let the vampire feed off them then erase their memory of the event afterwards, he likely has no need of resorting to such ''gauche'' subterfuge to feed. |
| 52 | * At this point in the game, the Fledgling is still... well, ''a Fledgling''. You're very new, very green, still figuring out all this 'vampire' stuff. It's fair to assume you might miss feeling human and doing normal human things like eating, drinking, etc... so it makes sense the Fledgling would ''want'' to have sex, purely for the sake of nostalgia for their human life. As for Jeanette... she's Jeanette, what more needs to be said? She'd do it either purely for the hell of it, or just to piss off Therese... or ''both''. |
| 53 | [[/folder]] |
| 54 | |
| 55 | [[folder:Take a fifth, sixth, seventh option]] |
| 56 | It bugs me that there's no middle ground in the Anarch and Lone Wolf endings between leaving [=LaCroix=] with the key to the sarcophagus and opening the sarcophagus yourself. If you've been told "Don't open it," why should it follow that you should let the guy you just stabbed repeatedly get the chance to open it, possibly gaining the power to take revenge on you? Wouldn't it be reasonable to contemplate the possibilities of: |
| 57 | * [[SealedEvilInACan Dumping the key in the Pacific]]? |
| 58 | * Destroying the key outright? |
| 59 | * Stabbing [=LaCroix=] to ''death''? |
| 60 | * Diablerizing [=LaCroix=] to ''Final'' Death? |
| 61 | ** Because Beckett specifically tells the player that ''anyone who opens it'' is going to have a very, very bad day, ''not'' that opening it will unleash an antediluvian. Consider: Beckett doesn't believe in Gehenna, and there is no antediluvian in the sarcophagus. This means that the only reason for him to freak out at you like he does is that, while examining the sarcophagus, he discovered what was ''really'' inside it, and he's warning you because he considers you a friend. The choice isn't about what to do with [=LaCroix,=] it's about whether or not you heed Beckett's advice. Beckett is, after all, one of only two people you can actually trust, and if opening the box would mean Gehenna, he'd have told you that. He's vague because once he discovers what's in the box, he's smart enough to see what's really going on and wants you to let [=LaCroix=] see it through to the end, so he won't chance that you're loyal to [=LaCroix=] and possibly give up the secret. |
| 62 | *** Not the guy who started this, but I share his complaint. Maybe I didn't get the right dialog, but to me Beckett's warning seemed to very strongly suggest that, though not an Antediluvian or harbinger of Gehenna, the opening of the Sarcophagus would be a bad thing for a lot more than just the top floors of [=LaCroix=]'s tower. His warning was quite urgent enough to suggest that at least Downtown LA and maybe quite far beyond would be in serious trouble, and to my mind my character had no reason to want it opened, but if it was to be opened he had every reason to be the one to do it, because he had proven himself the best chance to actually stop whatever might be inside it before it could do too much damage. Not to mention that whilst Beckett is trustworthy, he isn't necessarily right, and his near-panicked state followed immediately by getting the hell out of Dodge, combined with the game's general apocalyptic theme, could suggest that it actually is something to do with Gehenna and he just has trouble admitting it in as many words. |
| 63 | *** It's all vague in order to let you decide what you will do, you must put all the pieces together. Now what Beckett tell you there, it's anybody involved in the opening of Sarcophagus will have serious consequences, he doesn't know what consequences, but decides to leave before somebody opens it and he advices you to do the same, because he thinks you deserve the chance to survive. That's why the character at the Independent/Anti-Politicking Ending, says to [=LaCroix=]: "Take the Key, I hope you get what's coming to you. Goodbye, [=LaCroix=]", then drops the key. After many warnings, inside the character's mind, it realised it's better to leave and like Beckett, he's no longer concerned about Kindred society, just watch the last part with Nines. Now as a Malkavian you can learn more things than any other character about the situation. It also has the chance to open it by curiosity, because it didn't arrive to any conclusion yet and by ambition because others thought it must be an Antediluvian, Andrei and Ming Xaio believed in it. When you're just curious, you say: "Think I'll go take my key and see what's inside my sarcophagus", if the ambition commands you, then you say: "It's mine, it's of all mine. I win. Los Angeles will bend to my will". |
| 64 | ** What on earth made you people think that was Beckett you were talking to? Perhaps my Malkavian character rubbed off on me too much and I was just paranoid, but I took that meeting to be an impossibly transparent, last-ditch ploy by Ming Xiao. |
| 65 | *** Simple. The prophet on the beach says that there are two people you can trust. The lone wolf, and the man on the couch. Considering she has perfect, yet scattered statements on the events of the coming story and no connection to anyone (thinblood and all that), there is literally no way she could be manipulating you out of more than the $20 you gave her. Even if she could, why would Troika put that there, without a 'ha ha, that beach Malkavian was actually in my employ!' reveal? |
| 66 | *** What convinced me is the fact that after Beckett runs down the alley, wolf howling can be heard. It seems to imply Beckett switched to wolf form, and seems to happen only to inform the player that that's, indeed, the real Beckett. |
| 67 | *** When you see Ming-Xiao as Nines (at least when playing as a Malkavian), his voice has an odd echo. Your character even remarks on it. Beckett speaks normally. |
| 68 | *** Minor point(s), but at no point does Rosa suggest you can trust her (not a real argument point, I'm just saying she can't be considered canon I mean why should you trust her? A thin-blood Malkavian caitiff at that!?) Also this argument for Beckett not being Beckett is a serious point, the Malkavian can 'recognise' that Beckett isn't being himself.. and that can also be picked up by other characters. It doesn't even have to be Ming=Xiao playing the role of Beckett but certainly the Cabbie using the power of Caine OR a high-level (Malkavian) obfuscate could disguise himself. Just a suggestion but it was deliberately vague! |
| 69 | *** A lot of people put a lot of faith in Rosa for some reason, despite the fact that her predictions have the potential to be proven wrong literally three minutes after she makes them. If you've already ticked Mercurio off by that point in the game, then regardless of her insinuation that he's trustworthy, he'll pull a knife and attack you the moment you bring the astrolite back to him. |
| 70 | *** "Ignore what you don't like" Is White Wolf canon, you want it to be Beckett? It's Beckett. You want Ming Xiao or the Cabbie? It's them! There is no right or wrong answer which is why the developers refused to answer too many questions about the story. |
| 71 | ** Beckett was so vague it actually made me even more curious what the heck is in that damn sarcophagus. I have to agree there should have been some sort of middle ground choice where you'll heed Beckett's warning and not let ''anyone'' open it. Also destroying the key in front of [=LaCroix=] would have been a very epic alternative to ''[[VideogameCrueltyPotential totally]]'' ''[[BreakTheHaughty breaking him]]''. Just imagine the glorious FreakOut that'll more than likely happen. Though IMHO, [[ObviousBeta Troika never had a chance to really flesh out the end of VTMB, hence lots of things in the end phase feel very unpolished, such Beckett last conversation with the PC.]] |
| 72 | *** Camarilla ending doesn't give you a choice in the matter (where Strauss takes control as the new prince), he has the sarcophagus sealed in a warehouse so nobody can open it. |
| 73 | *** Strauss didn't become in a Prince, he wasn't interested in it, he also told you he doesn't. He didn't like [=LaCroix=] as Prince, he just wanted another person at that position to favour the interests of Clan Tremere and the Camarilla, in that order. There's also one dialogue, at the Camarilla ending, to say to [=LaCroix=], you want to be a Prince and you have heard the Camarilla is looking for one. |
| 74 | ** It might be the same reason why [=LaCroix=] used a convoluted plot using you, Ming and a sacrificed Grout just to target Nines for death by Blood Hunt. Just ordering the Camarilla under his command to just attack on Anarch ground would end in a blood bath. If Nines told his gang to storm [=LaCroix=]'s tower, it would ignite a war and potentially see LA being swarmed by Cams even if (or especially if) they managed to dust [=LaCroix=]. Covert operations was the way to go. |
| 75 | ** If you joined the Anarchs, its highly likely someone (Jack?/Cabbie?) told you what was inside hence the "From the Anarchs" line, so your only worry was to walk away from the blast radius before a crippled [=LaCroix=] can open it. |
| 76 | *** Nines was also apparently involved in the sarcophagus plot (or at least aware of it) according to some of the spin-off novels that continued the canon, which kinda changes the sarcophagus ploy from just Jack's scheme to an Anarch scheme. The idea that someone told you offscreen in at least the Anarch ending seems the most likely, and jells with the "gift from the Anarchs" line better than the PC simply assuming. |
| 77 | ** If you are independent, you've probably picked up enough hints to know that [=LaCroix=] opening the box is bad news, and honestly, wouldn't it be better that [=LaCroix=] bear the brunt of it rather than some innocent schmuck? |
| 78 | ** As for the Cam ending with Straus, well, [=LaCroix=] is gone and even though there weren't any fire works, its still a partial "win" for Jack as while there isn't a very clear, very bright, burning, and public sign that a Camarilla Prince just unleashed hell on himself and his own tower by his own hands....meh (waste of C4 and a view), Straus at least seems an improvement over [=LaCroix=] in that he doesn't seem to suffer from ChronicBackstabbingDisorder and can be polite. Also, what [=LaCroix=] said about being the only one capable of uniting the Anarchs and Camarilla is still true. |
| 79 | [[/folder]] |
| 80 | |
| 81 | [[folder:Tremere Home Security]] |
| 82 | Why does Strauss allow the Sabbat to kidnap your ghoul? For a man who is calculating and brilliant, he pretty much loses a valuable ally and also makes himself look weak. The fact that the Sabbat broke into their Chantry and left unpunished is just so utterly Un-Tremere that its utterly insane. |
| 83 | * I think it's actually ''meant'' to suggest that Strauss isn't as awesome as he thinks he is. This is surely the intended impression for the player whenever we listen to him talk or have to clean up his messes, he falls squarely into the template of an archetypal elder who doesn't keep up with the times and functions by looking at everyone else down his nose. |
| 84 | * The Sabbat don't necessarily need to break into your haven to kidnap Heather. They probably just ambushed her when she went out for something (even ghouls have to eat). |
| 85 | ** The most recent version of the unofficial patch (though I'm not sure if this is restored content or something Wesp added) gives you an option to order Heather to stay inside, in which case she will survive. So I guess the answer is that the Sabbat never do break into the Chantry. |
| 86 | *** That would be something that the developers chose to take out, making her even more tragic, that Wesp has reactivated. The idea of having a ghoul who has a happy ending isn't really in vibe with the rest of the game. |
| 87 | *** I dunno... Mercurio and Romero both seem pretty content with their situations. |
| 88 | ** Going back to Strauss, he did honestly imply that he sees Heather as a liability to the PC, one could argue Strauss ''could'' have let the Sabbat break into the Chantry, on the grounds he was doing the PC a favor. The Tremere are after all by nature a very cold, manipulative, by-the-numbers bunch. |
| 89 | *** But...the Sabbat absolutely hate the Tremere. Absolutely and utterly. If they broke into the Chantry they wouldn't stop at kidnaping one ghoul, they would burn that fucker to the ground and everyone inside it. The simplist answer is that Heather went out for something (which she does several times in the game) and the Sabbat grabbed her then. |
| 90 | [[/folder]] |
| 91 | |
| 92 | [[folder:Cabbie: Theory and Practice]] |
| 93 | People keep considering the cabbie to be Caine purely based on the name of the folder that contains his sound files. Yes, he seems to be a fairly powerful vampire. Yes, it is heavily implied that he, in fact, is considerably strong. Yes, it's cool to think it ''is'' Caine. Yes, the Malk character utters something about it at the end of the game. No, nothing aside from the sound folder directly says it ''is'' Caine. And even that's not absolutely positive (assuming Troika didn't just forget to rename the files). I believe it is ''more'' plausible that the cabbie is a low generation Malkavian, perhaps even a Methuselah: powerful? Check. File names? He ''believes'' he is Caine. Or that is his name. Or he just took up this as a pseudonym. Either way - check. The Malk PC freaking out? For one, when did the Malkavian become utterly reliable? The PC has conversations with a stop sign and with the TV, so that doesn't make for exactly a sound opinion on his part. Also, if the cabbie ''is'' a Malkavian Methuselah, the Malk PC has every right to refer to him as a Dark Father (IIRC, the PC doesn't even call him a Dark Father ''per se'' but something else that implies it). In addition, if the cabbie is a powerful Malkavian who really believes he is Caine, that can very "fool" the PC. That, and high levels Obfuscate. So, back to the PC comment - check.\ |
| 94 | \ |
| 95 | I even cooked up a different theory, just in order to show that all the facts don't necessarily mean the cabbie is Caine, here it goes: the cabbie is a Setite Methuselah. |
| 96 | # The dark glasses hide his serpentine eyes |
| 97 | # Obfuscate ensures everybody would be deceived |
| 98 | # He pretty much ensures that a power struggle brakes off between the vampire factions in the city and no matter who the winner is, everyone is shaken up pretty bad. And the winner (no doubt a one very high up the hierarchy) just might get blown apart. Sort of what Setites are likely to do. |
| 99 | # Malk freaks out, because of obscene levels of Obfuscate and/or Presence, as well as a Methuselah. Also, Malks are unreliable as mentioned above. |
| 100 | # calls himself Caine or tries to pose as him, for his own purposes\ |
| 101 | \ |
| 102 | Not a very good theory but decent enough. And that's before even using "canon says he isn't Caine". Heck, for that matter canon says Smiling Jack acted quite unlike himself after the encounter. Some could say [[MindRape Emotion Raped by Presence]]. As, you know, a Setite could and would do, if it suits him. And hey, he even got the legendary Brujah to do some gardening - bonus! Even a Malkavian could pull that off with [[MindRape Dementation]], in support of my first theory. |
| 103 | * It's not purely based on the name of the folder, it's purely based on the implications in-game, for which the folder is something to freak out about when looking for clues. At the end of the day, the reason that it's 'cool' to think of the cabbie as Caine is that it's ''presented'' to be cool for the cabbie to be Caine (the devs clearly also thought it was cool) and the fact that it's intentional just makes it even more appealing. |
| 104 | ** Implications like...what? That he is certainly a powerful vampire? That he is all cryptic and stuff? He seems to have orchestrated everything? It just doesn't scream "Caine" to me. Sure, you can throw in the fact that the PC seems favoured but yet again it doesn't ''have'' to be Caine. Heck, a Malkavian elder makes a hell lot more sense, since he would at least have a reason to bother.\ |
| 105 | Also, what if the devs thought it cool. For all we know, the name may have been left over from something that didn't make it into the game. |
| 106 | *** The game goes out of its way to make sure you know who Caine is, even if you're not at all versed in oWoD lore. The developers clearly wrote the character to have an ambiguous identity; they say as much when asked. He mentions Enoch a few times if you take the dialog tree in certain directions, which no other vampire does, partially because many don't believe it even existed. He emphasizes that "the blood of Caine" determines the fate of vampires, while acting as a metaphorical parallel to fate, giving you the illusion of free choice but ultimately being a necessary part of your quest in order for you to advance to one of only a few possible outcomes (important lines: "I'm just a driver, I can't take you anywhere unless you tell me where you want to go." "Where do you want to go?") Note that his motivation is largely to see which of the endings you'll chose after his plan plays out to the endgame; this is not any ''more'' of a thing a Malkavian would do. I could say the same critique of the Malkavian view, that Caine could just as believably want to observe the way his descendants behave when faced with certain choices as much as an old Malkavian would have fun the scenario; it's only possible he's a Malkavian because Malkavians can manifest their insanity in ''any'' way, which means you can't disprove the idea based solely on the notion that he could have some sort of mental derangement that causes him to do both the things he does and to carry himself the way he does, complete with Noddest thematics. "Those wacky Malkavians, they can be so unknowable sometimes!" is no more a concrete reason then "That brooding Caine, he can be so unknowable sometimes!" There is no right answer, and the character was intentionally written to have no right answer. He could be a recent replacement for Lucinde as the Ventrue Justicar for all we know, manipulating events so that the clan's own dim view of [=LaCroix=] and his territory doesn't become known while still getting things under control. There's nothing wrong with going for the answer you like better. It shouldn't matter that the answer you like better just happens to be one other then the answer many other players like. |
| 107 | *** Any vampire older than 500-600 is likely to have heard about Enoch, before the Camarilla declared it a fairy tale and went to some lengths to disprove it. With the exception of Beckett and Andrei, the other [=NPCs=] probably don't know enough about Enoch to refer to it in a casual conversation (not that it matters, since it's never even brought up. How many times has Eden come up in an conversation during the last week? Or month? 1-2 times at most? And note that Eden is more popular with humans than Enoch is with Kindred.) but Beckett does believe that it's not real and Andrei doesn't really get much lines, nor does he start citing Kindred history, before he tries to gut you.\ |
| 108 | \ |
| 109 | As for the cabbie being a Malk, derangement, it isn't only a matter of "Malks' madness is unpredictable" (well, it's part of it anyway): There is at least one Malkavian, or even more, likely a group of Malkavians who believe they ''are'' Caine. Low-gen, old and powerful Malkavian(s) to be exact. He/they travel the world, act all mysterious, try to appear "fated", and drop hints of their "true" nature (they are Caine, after all). Remind you of somebody? There is at least one of them buried somewhere in [=VtM=] fluff, but I've come across info about a group of half a dozen, or maybe a dozen, or so members of the group. Don't remember if it was official or some sort of fan thing, though.\ |
| 110 | \ |
| 111 | Of course, there is also the cannon, which sort of implies the cabbie ''wasn't'' Caine, if one wishes to think outside the [[strike:box]] game. [[spoiler:In fact, Caine can't have even been in LA at that time. But whatever. People seem to want to disregard that, most of the time, so I'm not bringing it up]] |
| 112 | *** I wasn't trying to disprove that it's a Malkavian; I acknowledged long ago that it's ambiguous. The point isn't that it can't be one, the point is that it could be either, and it just so happens that more players prefer the one you don't. (As for canon, the Gehenna novel hardly means anything; the devs likely didn't have access to it during development. White Wolf canon operates heavily on "throw out what you don't like," and even if you don't, it's not far-fetched to think Caine just planted himself in the cave for Beckett to find him in later.) |
| 113 | *** That seems like too many mental gymnastics and things that only work as baseless theories. It's pretty obvious he was meant to be Caine when everything points to it, as opposed to a Malkavian methuselah not even mentioned anywhere in the game that you have to make up yourself. If the files, e ending and the obvious "Dark Father" foreshadowing aren't enough proof, the Malkavian's reaction sure is. There'd be no point to that exchange otherwise. |
| 114 | * People consider a single piece of work as gospel truth in a [[TheVerse universe]] that by its own internal rules allows '''anything''' (up to and including entire rulebooks) within its canon to be solemnly and summarily ignored whenever an author feels like doing so. It doesn't matter if the Gehenna novel said that Caine was sleeping somewhere or another during VTMB's timeframe -- if the game authors feel like saying he was in LA driving a fledgling around in a cab, then that's where he was ''inside that particular piece of work''. The Gehenna rulebook itself has FOUR completely different end-of-the-world scenarios, and each has wildly different information regarding Caine's whereabouts, activities, intentions, etc. And in addition to that, that book's appendix (called "The First Vampire") specifically deals with how to use Caine in a Gehenna setting/story. To sum it up: Caine is such an otherworldly entity that he can only be used as a plot device (as opposed to a regular character) and, as such, ''has'' to be "adapted" to each particular Gehenna story -- this can take '''any''' form, from having him being the übermaster of the Jyhad, to having died a long time ago, to ''not having existed at all''. Whenever someone chooses to ignore all that and shun any conflicting theories dealing to Caine with "it says so in the Gehenna novel" as their only argument for doing so. |
| 115 | * Basic rule of storytelling actually dictates that the Cabbie can't be a Caine Imposter in relation to Bloodlines. Reason? There is no mention of Caine Imposters in the actual Game, and unless the makers of the game were trying to troll us, it's unlikely they intended the signs to be anything but Father of Vampires himself. Within the game itself, they only use the term "Father" for two things. God and Caine. The Ancient Vampires do not have the same Almighty reverence a title such as "Father" is, and within the game they are mostly called ancestors. Unless the Game itself is being a Dick, Troika Games intended the Cabbie to be Caine. However, White Wolf's Publication is still, by nature, higher canon then Bloodlines, so it's a moot point. |
| 116 | * Official policy with all White Wolf productions is to ignore what you don't like. So, if you don't like the cabbie being Caine, ignore all potential clues that suggest he might be Caine. If you ''do'' like the cabbie being Caine, take the clues and run with them. Works out nicely, yeah? |
| 117 | * Can't Cain use one of the various 10 dot plot device powers to be in two places at once? |
| 118 | ** He doesn't ''have'' to, that's why waving around the Gehenna novel as "cabbie isn't Caine proof" is absurd even if you're not willing to believe it without canon support; the novel takes place ''after'' Bloodlines. He wouldn't need to use his plot device powers to be in two places at once, just to make it look like he was waiting where Beckett found him for longer than he was actually there. Which probably wouldn't require actual effort anyway. There is no actual ''conflict'' between the two. And this is, again, only relevant if you absolutely ''must'' fit different sources of canon, in a system that operates on different sources deliberately ignoring each other when convenient, together perfectly. |
| 119 | *** There's a critical flaw in that theory. Caine in the Book and Caine in the Game have COMPLETELY different personalities. Caine in the Book is a Self-inflicted Pariah who WILLINGLY decided to lock himself forever because of how much he hates vampire politics, and couldn't care less about what happens anything else. Caine in the Game is a Dark Father that is playfully orchestrating a test in a way to see if there's any way for his Childer to survive after Gehenna. Curiously, there's no real reason why the Caine in the Cave could be the actual imposter instead, though personality-wise he doesn't exactly match the typical Caine Imposter. |
| 120 | * One reason why people might be attracted to the idea of the Cab Driver being Caine is that it allows for [=WMGs=] that explain the discrepancy between the power the player character begins with and the power he/she ends with (and that comment by Andrei at Hallowbrook Hotel), considering that a) the start and end of the game are only separated by a couple of nights, b) the player character starts out as susceptible to domination by [=LaCroix=], but by the end-game is unaffected. Low-generation Malkavians are really powerful, but not quite up to Caine's Vampire God level - that is, it is a bit of a stretch for them to be able to raise your generation without it being immediately noticeable and without leaving a diablerizing-mark on your aura. |
| 121 | ** The start and end of the game just as likely aren't separated by a couple of nights. Heather runs out of Vitae several times, and ghouls need to feed once a month. Being able to resist [=LaCroix=]'s Domination may be explained by his weakened state or the protagonist taking the Iron Will merit. The protagonist starts as 8th generation judging by the bloodpool, that's quite powerful by itself, so some learning and practice would turn them into a killing machine pretty soon. There's no need to involve Caine directly, since it kinda ruins the whole curious observer schtick. |
| 122 | * Simply put: Bloodlines canon: He is Caine for all the reasons listed. oWoD canon: He is not Caine unless you wanted him to be for all the reasons that have been mentioned (mostly that Caine is accounted for at the time...) |
| 123 | [[/folder]] |
| 124 | |
| 125 | [[folder:Jack's Cigars]] |
| 126 | Jack is smoking in the ending. Aside from the wisdom of vampire+fire, is that even possible for oWoD vampires to do? |
| 127 | * Good point. But yes numerous bits of artwork produced by White Wolf show vampires smoking (Particularly Toreador ones for some reason) although I can't remember if it's ever addressed. I guess White Wolf and Troika by extension just thought smoking is cool. |
| 128 | * While they don't HAVE to breathe, taking air in and out of the body is still required for things like talking. Since they can do THAT, we can presume their lungs to work just fine, muscle-wise. Physically, yes. Vampires can smoke. |
| 129 | ** I meant more along the lines of whatever he is smoking having an effect on his system (given the "blood is a kindred's only vice" stuff.) |
| 130 | *** It could easily have a psychological effect. Either it's an old habit and the physical action sticks, or ''Jack'' (and any other vampires who smoke) just thinks it's cool, too. Probably a mix of both, to varying degrees, beyond the individual. |
| 131 | *** Rules-speaking, Vampires gain nothing from smoking (except for a handy method of inspiring Rötschreck in their fellow Kindred if they brandish the cig). Vampires can get effects by drinking blood containing Nicotine, and can indeed get Nicotine addiction from it too. But they can't get Nicotine addiction from smoking, since they have no bloodstream of their own for the Nicotine to enter. |
| 132 | ** Most Brujah would break your face for suggesting they are similar to the Toreador, but they do have a lot in common. They both have Celerity, Presence and a preoccupation over how things make them appear. Jack is smoking because he thinks he looks more badass with a fat cigar. |
| 133 | ** It's been mentioned in plenty of [=VtM=] fiction that one of the [[{{Pun}} dead]] give-aways that a vampire is dead is that their breath doesn't mist up the air during winter. There are two ways vampire's get around this; one is to spend blood to mimic that effect, and the other is to smoke so people can see that they're breathing. Plus, Jack could just smoke because he likes smoking (or because he'll one day be turned into a [[{{WesternAnimation/Futurama}} robot that bends things and has a taste for cigars.]]) |
| 134 | [[/folder]] |
| 135 | |
| 136 | [[folder:Protagonist Power]] |
| 137 | I know it's due to gameplay but our protag seems to become quite powerful in a few night considering he/she's fresh and newer generation to boot. |
| 138 | * I remember hearing that he's actually 7th generation (though I can't remember the source), which is actually pretty good. As for the rapid progress, it's implied that Cain (issues of being elsewhere aside) is accelerating your progress, just so he can see how you personally respond to the LA situation. |
| 139 | ** Wouldn't that make your sire 6th generation? If so, what was the point of all that show? |
| 140 | *** According to the number of blood points and the rules of the source game, the protagonist would be 8th generation. |
| 141 | *** The point of the show is that [=LaCroix=] is trying to play prince in a city that thinks he's a jester. By making a spectacle of killing an elder over a (relatively) minor offense, he's trying to prove he's got power, and that he's fair in dispensing justice and won't play favorites. And yeah, from the number of Blood Points you have, you're about 8th generation, which puts you on the higher side of average (most elders are 6th-8th generation). |
| 142 | [=LaCroix=] does state that, up to that night, he had seen the sire as an upstanding and loyal member of the vampire community, and it was a flagrant violation of the Traditions... |
| 143 | * A fair number of characters do remark that in universe the protagonist is getting way too powerful way too quickly and this is concerning. It's hinted that Cabbie/Caine is doing...something. |
| 144 | [[/folder]] |
| 145 | |
| 146 | [[folder:Werewolf Blood]] |
| 147 | The Werewolf Blood quest bugs me. Doesn't any part of a werewolf that detaches from its body revert to human form and become indistinguishable from regular human body parts, blood included? There should be no problem with the werewolf blood in the hospital because it's not even werewolf blood anymore. |
| 148 | * The Jester Prince is hardly an expert on the subject... |
| 149 | * It apparently does not in this game. If you go for the Anarch ending, Nines shows off a werewolf head to the player. |
| 150 | ** Indeed, TabletopGame/WerewolfTheApocalypse DOES state that any blood from a werewolf will be normal human blood (or wolf-blood in wolf form). The fact is that vampires, the race whose whole society is BASED upon blood, don't know this. To not mock any vampire further, drinking werewolf blood is PCP for vampires, so it makes sense they think it does the same for humans. |
| 151 | *** Also, two explanations for the werewolf head 1) when killed, werewolves return to their normal form. Not all of them are born human (when the mother is a woman or a werewolf that is "natively" human) - the majority, yes, but some are born as wolves (if the mother is a wolf or a werewolf is "natively" a wolf) and some are born to two werewolf parents. These are known as metis, and are widely considered to be the scum of the Garou society (think a Nosferatu but more reviled). Their normal form is that Crinos the half-human half-wolf battle shape they are when they show up. 2) RuleOfCool - that's a thing in the World of Darkness. Sometimes vampires will show up with the severed head of another vampire to show to, say, the Prince. This does conflict with "vampires turn to ash" but apparently, White Wolf are willing to disregard it if it would make for a better story. So same thing with the werewolf - it died in Crinos form, his head would be in Crinos form because it's better that way. |
| 152 | [[/folder]] |
| 153 | |
| 154 | [[folder:Back in the Box?]] |
| 155 | When you see the Ankaran Sarcophagus on the Elizabeth Dane, it has been opened and bloody hand prints can be seen on the lid. Why after this report does everybody assume that whatever was in there is still in there? |
| 156 | * Because it's not anywhere else on the ship. If it slaughtered the entire crew then it should have slaughtered the cops if it was still on the ship, or it should have started slaughtering everyone in Santa Monica when it reached the mainland. But it's not on the boat and it's not doing anything on the mainland, so by process of elimination it's back in the Sarcophagus. There's also no solid proof that it has been opened; there's a bloody hand print on the lid but the Sarcophagus itself is still locked. |
| 157 | ** But people ''were'' dying in Santa Monica at the time. Remember the serial killer on the loose? Sure, the murders started before the Elizabeth Dane, but it's possible that ''some'' of the later killings were mis-attributed to the same killer. On top of that, people die in big cities all the time. How much difference would one predator make in a city full of killers? |
| 158 | *** The difference between a pack of rabid dogs and a grizzly bear. The word on everyone's lips was Antediluvian, and they have neither need nor desire to be subtle when quenching their almost bottomless thirst. So yeah, I guess somebody who didn't believe that there was either a dead king or an Antediluvian could logically believe what you suggest, but when all the elders in the city are getting jumpy because of it, and not for the 'breaking the Masquerade' reason, it would be a little harder to think that there wouldn't be one. |
| 159 | [[/folder]] |
| 160 | |
| 161 | [[folder:Mr. Ox]] |
| 162 | So what exactly was the creepy Chinese shop-keeper? Apparently the Malk PC knows what he is... |
| 163 | * A very badly disguised Chinese spy. |
| 164 | ** No, I mean the other shopkeeper, the one that gives you the eyes quest. |
| 165 | * Mr. Ox? I have a theory: the Kuei-Jin are said (by the Malk) to fear a "Yama King" demon that will eventually eat their souls. Since in Chinese/Japanese Mythology one of the Hell Keepers is Ox-headed, maybe Mr. Ox is a disguised Yama King or something like that? |
| 166 | ** The thing you are referring to is an Akuma, and was also my view, having actually played TabletopGame/KindredOfTheEast. Every hell is ruled by a Yama King, who are served by Akuma. To become Akuma all anyone needs to do is to really want to be one, sucks to be you if you change your mind. |
| 167 | *** If you attack him, Mr. Ox uses the same teleportation technique that the Kuei-Jin Brothers in the Giovanni Stronghold used, so it's likely he's just another Kuei-Jin. Which is a bit disappointing. |
| 168 | *** That can just be viewed as 'Eastern' magic and so can still be evidence for Yama-King/Akuma or Naphandus depending on who or what you want him to be. |
| 169 | *** Akuma are basically just the equivalent to Sabbat vampires for the Kuei-Jin, although more on the satanic side, so this still somewhat fits. |
| 170 | *** Other theories that fit his powers and attitude: A [[TabletopGame/DemonTheFallen Demon]] (unlikely, but possible), a [[TabletopGame/MageTheAscension Naphandus]] (rather likely), an [[TabletopGame/MageTheAscension Askashic Brother]] (would have to be a ''really'' creepy one), a [[TabletopGame/MageTheAscension Maurauder]] or a [[TabletopGame/WraithTheOblivion manifested Wraith]] (probably not). |
| 171 | * All of his quests deal with fate and death. He seems likely to be a Euthanatos. Any mage can teleport with practice. |
| 172 | [[/folder]] |
| 173 | |
| 174 | [[folder:Sisterly Clan Mix]] |
| 175 | Question! Therese claims to be a Ventrue while her sister Jeanette is a Malkavian. However, considering that they're both the same person (as Beckett say, They are Malkavian), Therese should have Malkavian disciplines (like Auspex, Obfuscation and Dementation). So, how can she possibly pass for a Ventrue!? Their disciplines don't match at all! |
| 176 | * Dementation works very much the same as Domination and that's really all that Ventrue really needs. |
| 177 | * Many Ventrue make it a point of pride to never be seen using disciplines. Officially they consider it a show of weakness, unofficially they don't want people knowing how high they've got them. |
| 178 | * That's also not to mention that some of the older Malkavians were given Dominate instead of Dementation when the insanity was "recessive" as it were. Also you can buy out of clan disciplines in the game so her insanity might have prompted her to seek out the Ventrue clan disciplines. She might not have them in the game (I have never looked) but it is easily explained. |
| 179 | * I may have just missed or forgotten a line of dialogue, but when did Therese ever claim to be a Ventrue? |
| 180 | ** I don't think she does - however, she does certainly carry herself as one. |
| 181 | ** No, she never claims to be a Ventrue, she never really mentions clans at all except to sneer at the Nosferatu. As for carrying herself as one not every vampire wearing a suit and standing in a boardroom is a Ventrue. Issac dresses well but conservatively and is a power broker but he's a Brujah. Clans do have a culture of their own but not every member is going to fit them. Not every Ventrue is a stiff in a suit, not every Brujah is a gangbanger and not every Malkavian is a giggling clown. |
| 182 | [[/folder]] |
| 183 | |
| 184 | [[folder:Understaffed Sabbat]] |
| 185 | Correct me if I'm wrong, but the Sabbat is supposedly composed by Tzimisce and Lasombra. So why not even one single Lasombra get mentioned in-game? |
| 186 | * Because the game's portrayal of the Sabbat is pretty primitive. Aside from Andrei, it's pretty much restricted to Shovelheads, because they're the bad guys anyway. There is one point where you're attacked by Lasombra women in the Sabbat HQ though, however it is not elaborated on. Then again, they also had a Tremere ''antitribu'', a kind that supposedly died out. Also, it's not like they HAVE to show all clans. We never saw a Ravnos or Setite, after all. |
| 187 | ** Also the Lasombra aren't exactly foot soldiers. They're very much in line with the Ventrue or Toreador of the Camarilla in that they are more often behind the scenes doing their work. While it's odd that we never see them it's perfectly explainable by simply hand-waving it as us only seeing the rank and file ''antitribu'' types in the game. |
| 188 | ** Come to think of it, even of those we only get to see the Brujah and Gangrel, even though the real core of the Sabbat consists of the ''antitribu'' of most Clans. Yeah, the game didn't exactly give much thought to the Sabbat here. |
| 189 | *** True, but it's still easily explainable. The Sabbat are even newer to LA, and have even less presence, than the Camarilla. They seem to have less than a hundred members active in the city, and their main base of operations is a single abandoned hotel. They've basically only just gotten a foothold into the city, and their numbers aren't yet large enough to need more than one high-ranking leader there. That's also why there are hardly any Camarilla elders in LA, too. Vampiric elders are all cautious and paranoid as a rule (if they weren't, they'd be dead by now), so they're not going to risk their necks out on the frontier. |
| 190 | *** It's possible that they have other ''antitribus'' that just shares the same skin as the Brujah ones. The game had a messy development and maybe it would've been different if it went smoothly. For example, those that use Presence and Celery but not Fortitude could as well be Toreadors and the "Brujah" in Santa Monica that disappears if you get too close could be a Malkavian or a not-so-deformed Nosferatu, as Brujahs (especially Shoveheads) don't have Obfuscate. The one that breaks the 4th wall in the Downtown cutscene could also be Malkavian. |
| 191 | * There was a Lambrosa who was cut from the game. He was travelling around the city trying to convince all the independents to join up and had a lair in the LA Public Library. They restored it in one of the fan-patches but there was so little to work with that the game arguably feels less complete with it included. |
| 192 | [[/folder]] |
| 193 | |
| 194 | [[folder:Celebrity Disappearances]] |
| 195 | Wouldn't people notice Imalia going missing? |
| 196 | * Sure, but this is the World of Darkness, so you'd expect a half-assed police investigation at best, then people deciding that she probably had an accident or was abducted or killed herself or whatever, anyway, she'd be filed missing and her fans would move on to a new idol quickly. The Nosferatu might have been pulling some strings, too. Technically, this is an issue for all vampires, but the famous ones especially. |
| 197 | ** Actually, if you search one of the computers at Ground Zero, you can come across Imalia's entry, which says that she went missing, and later her wrecked car was discovered, the remains within were burned beyond recognition. So she's legally dead. |
| 198 | [[/folder]] |
| 199 | |
| 200 | [[folder:Flip the Bird Ending]] |
| 201 | Is there anyone else who thinks flipping off part in the independent ending is a bit too much? Sure, I can understand the PC is tired of being jerked around and all but the Anarchs, particularly Nines, are the reason he/she wasn't killed along his/her sire in the first place. Sure saving you could very much be a political move by Nines as well but at least the guy deserves a tinge of respect. And alienating yourself with the one group that doesn't want kill you after all the crap you did to the Sabbat, Kuei-jin and Camarilla isn't very smart either. Having a lot of enemies and practically no allies(not necessarily friends) in the World of Darkness universe is just as good as the PC standing in the open and waiting for the sun to rise. Inexplicably powerful fledgling vampire or not. |
| 202 | * Actually, if you understand why that is such a bad move, you'll understand the point of the ending. The fledgeling is committing a social (and maybe even literal) suicide. Remember that even if they've been fairly self-sufficient through the game, they still benefited from both Anarch and Camarilla. Now they have no one. Through the game, it becomes very clear why you need allies, but also how raw the unlife is. So the fledgeling is trading a longer unlife to a blaze of glory. Consider what they've done so far, it is fairly IC. |
| 203 | ** Hmm. I never actually thought of it that way. More fitting for a Gangrel, Brujah and maybe a Nosferatu PC but yeah good point. Thanks for the insight. |
| 204 | ** Actually, given their clan disposition, a Brujah would probably be flipping people off even in the other endings. |
| 205 | * Question: If you didn't want to flip off the Anarchs then why didn't you choose their ending? Secondly: Nines is a big boy, I think he can handle being insulted once or twice without wanting to kill you. |
| 206 | ** I would be inclined to agree with you, except that Nines (and all the Anarchs, really) are not so different from the Camarilla as they think in terms of their attitudes. Nines gets every bit as petty and pissed off as [=LaCroix=] does if you even ''dare'' question his motives or compare him to them, even though, just like [=LaCroix=], he basically spends the whole game getting you to be his errand boy. He probably won't be all "call the blood hunt" just because you told him where he could stick it, but he'll likely be sore about it for a while. |
| 207 | *** Nines doesn't spend the whole game getting you to be his errand boy. He doesn't ask you to do anything at all unless you choose the Anarchs in the endgame. He's one of the least manipulative vampires in the game, but then he is under a century old. |
| 208 | *** The point is that he can't really order you around since he's not your official boss, not can he Dominate you. However, should you choose to select him as your ally voluntarily, and he'll be just as bad as the Prince. It kinda illustrates what some other Kindred have mentioned: they claim to be anarchists, but still have a Baron who behaves very much like a leader and a master of the domain. |
| 209 | *** ...Except he's really not. Sure, he orders you to go after [=LaCroix=] and Ming Xiao all the same, but the Anarchs circumstance differs ''greatly'' from all other sides. They've locked down Hollywood because [=LaCroix=] has made an open and deliberate attempt on their defacto leader's life, and by doing so, he's shattered the tentative stalemate that has existed between the Anarchs and the Cam since he showed up. [=LaCroix=] makes the first attack and then sits in his fancy tower waiting for his fledgling to clean up his mess--if you fail, he can just run away to whatever other Camarilla city sits closest to LA. Nines is the victim of an attack on all sides, is half-dead when he gives the order, and is fending off Camarilla with half his forces, protecting his territory with the other half. If you tell Nines your concern about doing this by yourself, he apologizes but points out that they are the last Free State in America and they have no where else to go. Defeat for them doesn't mean running away with their tails between their legs, it means death and complete eradication. The best chance they have is the element of surprise: sending in the proven very capable little-fledgling-who-could to quietly take them out while they're still sitting pretty thinking they've destroyed the Anarchs. I mean, damn, he even states he'd be there fighting by your side if he hadn't just barely survived his tango with the werewolf! When did [=LaCroix=] ever even entertain possibility of involving himself in the conflict HE set in motion? So no, Nines really doesn't deserve to be flipped off in the independent end. He's saved your life twice without asking for anything in return, forgave you for helping frame him for murder, and unless you were rude to him first, he was generally pretty nice to you all around. Yes, he's a big boy and likely isn't going say "Well, that made me so mad I will kill them for it." but it does kinda make the [=PC=] seem like a bit of an UngratefulBastard. It's annoying that the game forces you to act like you hate the Anarchs just because you didn't join them. |
| 210 | [[/folder]] |
| 211 | |
| 212 | [[folder:The Paranoia of Doctor Grout]] |
| 213 | Here's one: who is this guy the paranoid Dr.Grout is so afraid of? I thought it might be [=LaCroix=], but none of the other elder vampires is afraid of him. Sure, Jack and Strauss are older than him, so he is not particularly scary for them. But Nines, who is certainly younger than [=LaCroix=], doesn't seem to be afraid of him; neither is Isaac. Hell, even the Malkavian PC (who is a few nights old) calls him "Jester-Prince" and since Malkavians have Insight, we may assume that Dr. Grout also knew that [=LaCroix=] was but a jester. So, who scared the shit out of poor Dr.Grout? |
| 214 | * It could be Grout sensing [=LaCroix=]'s plans. Or just that he senses his evil intentions,and being a fairly uneducated vampire, he does not deal with it well. |
| 215 | ** Grout's delayed introduction to vampire society and his prompt invitation to act as Malkavian Primogen (uncontested as few Malkavians are so lucid) is by [=LaCroix=] - the only Camarilla Prince to be active in California for a very long time. The increasingly paranoid logs refer to the voices of malkavian insight around a particular vampire that he is in contact with - the voices warn him of danger and Grout is increasingly unable to suppress his terror to the extent that he saw recognition in the particular vampire that he knew something he shouldn't. [=LaCroix=] then enlisting Ming-Xiao to kill Grout likely comes about entirely from [=LaCroix=] correctly suspecting the erudite Grout's increasing lack of composure was due to malkavian insight presenting a threat to his plans. Framing Nines and leaking the lair's existence to Bach to hopefully off the PC is just gravy, the only price being his politically naive but intelligent Primogen turned liability. [=LaCroix=] doesn't need to be powerful to frighten Dr. Grout - he is an old vampire but is as new to the Jyhad as the Jester Prince is to LA. The fact that he kills him in the future is enough. |
| 216 | * As to why Nines and Issac aren't scared of [=LaCroix=], they're Anarchs and Anarch figureheads at that. Their very existence is a personal insults vampires many times [=LaCroix=]'s age and power, if they were the sort to get intimidated they would have given up decades ago. |
| 217 | * And considering Grout's mental disability is a very bad case of paranoid personality disorder (or possibly schizophrenia), it might have been powerful enough override his logic and blow the threat [=LaCroix=] imposed way out of proportion. But then again, Grout's paranoia may have been justified considering his state when you find him. Heck, he might foreseen his own demise. |
| 218 | * I always assumed he was referring to Cain, that his inner voices were telling him Cain would be coming or of course he could be referring to Bach. |
| 219 | ** Can't be Bach, he specifically refers to the guy as a vampire and the person he's afraid of is someone he speaks to often. That second part means it's unlikely to be Caine either. [=LaCroix=] is the most likely candidate. Just 'cos he's not that scary to more impressive vampires doesn't mean he's not a evil bastard and it certainly doesn't mean he's not a threat to an addled, paranoid Malk with little actual experience with vampiric society. |
| 220 | |
| 221 | [[/folder]] |
| 222 | |
| 223 | [[folder:Mercurio's Blood Fix]] |
| 224 | During the Pain Of Being Mercurio, why didn't Mercurio just ask for blood from the PC Vampire? If a little once a month gives a ghoul semi-vampire status, a few sips should have healed him right up. |
| 225 | * There's probably some etiquette involved in feeding another vampire's ghoul your own blood. Not to mention Mercurio probably would only have accepted as a very last resort; drinking a vampire's blood leads to blood bonding (see: Heather). Yes, it takes three sessions for the bond to be complete, but emotional attachment forms even before then, meaning he would have had to deal with certain conflicting loyalties. |
| 226 | ** Worrying about etiquette and conflicting loyalties when you are beaten as badly as Mercurio seems a bit silly. Besides, Mercurio ended up being one of the few people you could trust anyway. |
| 227 | *** If I had a Domitor as pissy as [=LaCroix=] I would worry too. |
| 228 | *** Well, would you want to make yourself artificially loyal to somebody you've just met just so you could heal up a bad beating a little bit faster? When Mercurio tells you his loyalties to [=LaCroix=] are "all but written in blood", he's not kidding; blood bonding gives you a powerful compulsion to do whatever the vampire tells you, so it's not a decision to make lightly, even if it does wear off eventually if you don't feed from them again. |
| 229 | *** You can only have one Blood Bond at a time, so assuming Mercurio was Blood Bonded to [=LaCroix=] (almost a given if [=LaCroix=] is feeding him blood every month to keep him a ghoul) then he couldn't be bonded to the PC no matter how much or how often he drank from him/her, unless the bond with [=LaCroix=] was broken first. Granted, taking a lot of blood often from a different vampire could probably weaken or break the bond, but that would still take lots of time, beyond the scope of the game. More likely, Mercurio knew he had enough vampire blood in his system already to heal his wounds, so didn't trouble the PC over it. His whole scene is basically one of AmusingInjuries, after a fashion. |
| 230 | [[/folder]] |
| 231 | |
| 232 | [[folder:Nice Anarchs. Good Anarchs?]] |
| 233 | The creators kinda dropped the ball with the Anarchs VS Camarilla loyalities, atleat to this troper. Yes, Anarchs might be using you, but not only are there more nice anarch [=NPCs=] you can actually shoot shit with (Isaac is the best example), you actually feel they appericate you more and have done more for you. Camarilla has [=LaCroix=], Gary and Strauss. [=LaCroix=] REALLY doesn't incite respect, Strauss does,but he hasn't got too much to say. And Gary is met too late to matter,and is for Nosferatu more than Camarilla. You really don't get much out of them as you do from the Anarchs,and they are too few and you don't even get to meet your fellow neonates. This creates an atmosphere where you really feel the Anarchs care about you more than the Camarilla. Hence,why joining them seems more likely for the PC to do. |
| 234 | * Which considering the endings is probably how the devs wanted it to be. |
| 235 | * The Anarchists being nicer, boss? To this trooper they seemed as developed as the Camarilla; developed in a way you could choose what side was the best. In my opinion, people get too attached to the Anarchists without noticing that they point of the game is that everyone (yes, that includes Nines Rodriguez) is using you for their convenience. In fact, the Anarchists don’t even give you rewards after you do their dirty work, they just act “ok, thanks or whatever”, the Camarilla gives you money and talismans. |
| 236 | * A couple of points: Gary isn't Camarilla or Anarch, he's Nosferatu and bugger anyone else. More to the point, [=LaCroix=] is ''not'' the Camarilla ending, he's the [=LaCroix=] ending. Strauss, the nice(r) guy, is the real Camarilla loyalist. [=LaCroix=] is an ambitious would-be tyrant. |
| 237 | ** Woah Woah, How is Strauss any different to Gary really? They both openly say that they are primarily pro-clan! Also yeah the Anarch's appear to be more friendly but they are every bit as manipulating as the Camarilla. The Camarilla will reward you for serving your masters whereas the Anarchs view it as simply helping the community - that's merely a reflection of their beliefs. It is however fair to say that the Anarchs are more approachable because you can find more Anarchs to talk too, don't forget that LA has been mostly Anarch territory in it's history (*ahem* LA by Night) with the Camarilla in LA only arriving in the last few years (not being beaten back instantly because the Anarchs were severely weakened after the Jade Invasion). |
| 238 | *** Yes Strauss is "Clan First" like Gary. The difference is that the Nosferatu, at least the LA Nosferatu, can manage just fine without the Camarilla and in fact did. The Tremere on the other hand really can't. Two other clans (the Assamites and the Tzimisce) are dead set on their total elimination and the other clans are unlikely to stop them without a reason to. Hence why they need to remain useful to the Camrilla so that they will protect them. As a result being "Clan First" as a Tremere means backing the Camrilla. |
| 239 | * I agree with you. The Anarchs are simply too nice. I often see people arguing that they're just as manipulative as the other factions by virtue of the fact that they give you quests, but you have to jump through some real mental hoops for this to stick. Especially in the case of the Downtown Anarchs, who are archetypal underdogs that don't even ask you to do anything for them unless you badger them into it, and Nines, who saves the PC's life twice, gets screwed by them after [=LaCroix=] and Xiao play them for a patsy, and still doesn't ask a thing of them until the endgame. I feel bad screwing the Anarchs over in this game. I don't feel as though I should. |
| 240 | ** The thing is Anarchs, by and large, ''are'' nicer than at least Camarilla elders. The reason being they are usually younger. Very few Anarchs are older than a century, Jack being the stange exception. As a result, they are much closer to being human. Even reasonably pleasant elders have become detached from their former humanity. So even manipulative Anarchs are still a lot less difficult to get on with than an elder (and elders is what we're dealing with in this game). Plus Anarch genuinely believe in their cause whereas most Camarilla elders see the organization as a tool for their power. None of this makes the Anarchs the "good guys" but it does make them a much more agreeable group than the competition. |
| 241 | ** It's worth noting that simply asking you to do a task, even as payment for their help, isn't manipulation by any stretch. That's just an exchange; you are, after all, an agent of their enemy, why would you expect free help from them? But when the Anarchs give you a task, there's no false pretences or outcome they're hoping for when they gave it to you. They simply say "Here's a thing to do" and you can do it. They're not lying to you about why you're doing it, they're not setting you up or hoping you'll die in the process. They don't pay you for helping with the plague, sure, but their headquarters is a crappy bar downtown. They're not the Camarilla, they don't have the money to hand out, and when they do have money (Issac) you ''do'' get paid quite nicely for their tasks. So yes, the game is probably somewhat guilty of pushing the player into liking them more than the Camarilla but it's also justified in lore, given their ages. So... I guess moot point? |
| 242 | * The game seems to be trying to set up a certain dichotomy with the Camarilla and the Anarchs: Camarilla is more stable and comfortable, but also more manipulative and detached. Anarchs are more friendly and honest, but also more chaotic. This troper thinks the problem lies less in the Anarchs being too nice/likable, and more that the game does little to establish a downside to them. They seem to function perfectly well, they work to protect the Masquerade fine (the only reason they have some issues with hunters seems to be because Ash was being reckless), they even do more about the plague than the Camarilla do. At most, the Cabbie mentions you'll be at war defending the city from invaders for as long as you live and Nines mentions that Anarchs tend not to live that long--hence why he, a vamp who was embraced less than 60 years ago, is one of the oldest in the sect. Sure, these are downsides, but they're very distant for a player who stops living in this world as soon as [=LaCroix=] blows himself up. It's just not very balanced; the upside is joining a group of passionate and likable people who seem to grow to genuinely care about and respect you, the downside is something you'll never have to tangibly deal with. |
| 243 | [[/folder]] |
| 244 | |
| 245 | [[folder:Body Temperature]] |
| 246 | When dealing with the Society of Lepold, I noticed they rigged explosives inside their base set to go off if it sensed a vampire's heat signature. |
| 247 | * But vampires DON'T have a heat signature. |
| 248 | * As the Mandarin said in the Chinatown club Glaze: "I am monitoring your body heat. It is room temperature." |
| 249 | ** He's grandstanding. Vampires are colder than humans by a long way but not room temperature. They're full of stolen blood and they move around, so generate some heat. |
| 250 | ** Not a lot, though. Without being really active, they would be pretty close to room temperature. |
| 251 | * Well, I always thought that the Society of Leopold merely had laser tripwires. Cross the light and it goes boom, really similar to a normal tripwire. They can probably adjust it so it doesn't react to the humans - if the temperature is (within these norms), then don't blow up. They may even have a some sort of IFF[[note]]Identification friend or foe[[/note]] device that they use. At any rate, it's pretty easy to have a tripwire that doesn't trigger when your guys go through, so it should be possible to have it go off only when not-your-guys go through. Vampires, in this case. |
| 252 | ** An idea supported by the fact that you can hack said explosives to go off when humans pass through. |
| 253 | [[/folder]] |
| 254 | |
| 255 | [[folder:A jackhammer is just a really heavy lockpick.]] |
| 256 | Odd thought. Why did not occur to anyone, [=LaCroix=] in particular, that a modern day power tool like a jack hammer or an industrial sized pile driver if you want overkill, could be used to open the Ankaran Sarcofaghus? |
| 257 | * If its empty, no big loss asides from the waste of time, money and effort. Trifles to a Ventrue Prince like [=LaCroix=]. |
| 258 | * If it has an ancient evil in it, best to open in a time and place (like, at ground zero of a nuke test site) of your choosing. |
| 259 | * If there IS an Ancient Vampire to Diablerize, waiting for a missing key to open a coffin made of rock (which isn't be best material to resist a sledgehammer in the hands of even a "weak" vampire like [=LaCroix=]) seems silly when you can bust it open, by hand if need be. |
| 260 | The only possible explanation I could surmise was that [=LaCroix=] is being careful and wanted it opened as quietly as possible as to not "wake up" what he believed was a sleeping Ancient that might go on a killing spree. Even that doesn't seem to quite fit though, as he's put the Sarcophagus in the same room as him in his office, making him potential casualty #1, Sheriff or no Sheriff to hide behind. |
| 261 | * There are so many horrible booby traps, mystical and otherwise, that one can set up for something opened incorrectly. |
| 262 | [[/folder]] |
| 263 | |
| 264 | [[folder:Elizabeth Dane Crew]] |
| 265 | So, what happened to the Dane crew? Jack would be a thrall of the beast if he did it, so who? |
| 266 | * Cabbie. If it is Caine he's done a LOT worse and I'm not sure the Curse allows him to fall to the Beast. That would let him off his punishment. And in any case you need to do more than kill people to completely lost yourself to the Beast. A serial killer vampire is still Humanity 3 or 4. |
| 267 | ** Jack's Humanity is 4, according to ''LA by Night'' and that was ten years prior to the game. At that level, it's easy to justify murder. At Humanity 3, killing people stops bothering Kindred (and their karma meter). You can actually see that in game - killing innocent [=NPCs=] can only bring you down to 3. |
| 268 | ** Jack openly admits that he views humans as little more than cattle (but he doesn't slaughter them for fun). While a say, Humanity 10 Toreador may disagree with that statement, it's left entirely up to the interpretation of the player who did the killing on the Dane. |
| 269 | *** If Jack planned the whole plot out before hand, the crew probably isn't dead. The crew list was just fake identities, the REAL crew was ghouls or criminals who thought they were abandoning the ship as a hand-off, and all the blood around is just Jack finger painting with some blood packs. |
| 270 | *** Except leaving the crew alive just leaves more lose ends who can spoil the plot. Too many things could go wrong if he leaves the crew alive; namely they would have to be onboard up until they got close enough to LA to avoid the ship just vanishing into the middle of the ocean, they'd have to get the crew off, past the coast guard, into LA, there is this wonderful thing call Forensic Blood analysis that would tell if it was blood packs, not to mention that Jack just doesn't have the skill or patience to pull off a hoax. That same year as the game took place in the police knew him, by his name and monikor, for having kidnapped the daughter of a wealthy and influential couple, so he is not a very subtle vampire. |
| 271 | *** Jack is willing to level a downtown city block with C4, and you've seen him kill with aplomb in the tutorial. He's causing a war for giggles that is already boiling out into crapsack L.A. How many Kine did you end up killing chasing his little jack-in-the-box around the city all by yourself? Let's not pretend he's a nice guy that fakes records when just killing some Kine will get the job done. |
| 272 | *** Yep. just because Jack is AffablyEvil doesn't mean he is going to care much about who dies. |
| 273 | * Actually, I suppose, there are chances something actually WAS inside sarcophagus (not an Antediluvian, just some creature). After it going lose, Jack just set everything up to look like it creeped back inside the thing, while in fact that stuff may be walking by the sea bottom right to the city ^^ |
| 274 | ** You can see the "occupant" of the sarcophagus in a lot of the endings. While whether it's an plain old corpse, a vampire in Torpor, or ''something else'' is left up in the air, it very definitely isn't walking around. |
| 275 | ** There's also the very damming clue that, according to the Anarchs, Jack was a ''pirate'' before he was embraced. Now, what sort of person would feel comfortable with boarding a ship at sea, slaughtering the innocent crew, and stealing the valuables being transported on said ship...? |
| 276 | [[/folder]] |
| 277 | |
| 278 | [[folder:Windowed Bedrooms]] |
| 279 | It just bugs me a little that every haven (with the exception of the Nosferatu) you get in the game has uncovered windows. |
| 280 | * Actually, only the very crappy first apartment seemed to have windows. The Skyline and Chantry havens are windowless. |
| 281 | * Also, the first apartment has plywood laid out for you to cover the windows with. But it's mostly that [=LaCroix=] wants you dead, which is why you have to prove yourself to someone to get out of that deathtrap. |
| 282 | ** Well, the Tremere chantry has curtained-over windows, which would be useless against sunlight, really but I guess it's better than nothing. |
| 283 | ** Maybe if you open the curtains you get to see a brick wall? |
| 284 | *** Or there's shutters. |
| 285 | *** the Tremere have a Thaumaturgical ritual that is designed ''exactly'' to stop sunlight from coming through windows (and under doors and so on) called Defense of the Sacred Haven. It's pretty simple, too - only level 1. This is their chantry. Makes perfect sense that all they would have the effect on all the time. |
| 286 | *** If you look upward at the Chantry from outside, you'll notice the windows seem to be covered with some sort of purple mist, backing up the idea that they use the Thaumaturgical ritual. |
| 287 | [[/folder]] |
| 288 | |
| 289 | [[folder:Subverting Ghouls]] |
| 290 | Odd thought, when Skelter asked you to deal with a Ghoul named Patty who was looking for a blood fix, why was there no option of just giving her some YOUR vampire blood. Sure Patty seems like a JerkAss but killing her (by sending her to Vandal, Pisha, alley for you to drain dry or just kill) seems a bit drastic. Making her your pet seems a much less cruel and leaves less lose ends than the in-game TakeAThirdOption of telling her "master" is in another city. Sooner or later she's going to figure out she's been had and when she starts screaming bloody murder about Vampires, she'll be in another city, out of your immidiate reach, and likely ANNOYING the local Vampires there (if any), as well as wrecking hell on the Masquerade. |
| 291 | * By that point, you may already have another pet (Heather) and people might be concerned if you start 'collecting' ghouls. Besides, if you recruit Patty, she's probably a little too crazy to be of uch use. I agree that murder is a little extreme, but if you don't someone else will, inevitably. |
| 292 | * Two Ghouls is hardly a 'collection', I recall Grout's mansion being full of em. As a good, non-murdering vamp, letting her go to 'eventually' get killed by other vamps that get annoyed by her doesn't seem much better than the Vandal or Pisha choice. |
| 293 | ** Grout's a primogen. You're just some random off the street who got embraced. Besides, Grout's Malkavian to boot, he probably gets a bit of leeway, and it's implied that very few people have actually been in his mansion and seen what he's been up to. People might start talking however, if some random neonate of uncertain loyalties started putting together his or her own cabal of minions. |
| 294 | *** Since YOU are the neonate in question, putting together a cabal of minions might still count as the LEAST worrying thing about you. Given that you killed a Sabbat Elder, Werewolf, Kuei Jin clan with Priestess, and one joke of a Prince and his Bodygurd, possibly all in one night, you're entitled to a little slack right? Two Ghouls seem like a start. |
| 295 | *** In fairness, unless you've postponed the quest to the endgame for some reason, by that point you haven't done anything but blow up a sabbat warehouse. Impressive, but not as mindblowing as all the stuff you've mentioned. |
| 296 | *** Point. Still, blowing up the Sabbat Warehouse, (and doing the Haunted Hotel Quest) something no other Vampire (and all of them older/more experienced than your barely a week of nights old self) bothered or dared to do is something isn't it? Buying time to justify your Ghouls. |
| 297 | *** I think, at this point, [=LaCroix=] giving you a haven and (at least publicly) making you his emissary, and allowing you to keep your ghoul, is already ASTOUNDINGLY lucky, when, as a Camarilla prince, he would be well within his rights to execute you, Anarchs be damned. Having two might be pushing your luck a little. |
| 298 | *** I've always kind of assumed that [=LaCroix=] is giving you all this, when it should be your Clan's duty to teach you, because it makes you easier to manipulate. Prince's emissary might as well be 'scapegoat' among vampires. |
| 299 | *** Oh, no question he's trying to manipulate you, and get you to do his dirty work, but this is Vampire. That's kind of expected. Realistically though, as far as Camarilla laws go, he is still being remarkably leniant. And you pushing the boundaries of that leniancy would be more than enough reason to behead you. |
| 300 | *** Attempting to behead the PC outside of the astonishingly small window of opportunity between bewildered neonate and Killing Machine is likely to lead to a curbstomping. Wonder what the implications of THAT would be.... |
| 301 | ** Back to the original question, the reason you can't feed Patty your blood is because she is blood bound to another vampire. That is she is obsessively in love with said vampire. So she doesn't want just ''any'' blood, she wants his. |
| 302 | *** To elaborate a bit, once you drink a vampire's blood three times you are absolutely emotionally bound to that vampire until the bond is broken, which takes about a full year of not getting any blood from that vampire until it wears off enough for other bonds to take effect (or until the death of the vampire in question, whichever comes first). She'd develop some feelings for whoever gave her blood, but they'd always be second fiddle to the initial vampire which was the issue. |
| 303 | *** You're buying Patty time. She's gone for awhile without feeding and by the time she realizes that her vampire is nowhere in a very large city more time will have passed for the bond to weaken and she might just go back to being a normal human and lose interest in accidentally breaking the Masquerade looking for that guy. |
| 304 | *** Except you're back at the original problem; she's blood bond to that guy, it's going to take an entire year for the bond to weaken enough for her to get over it. The Anarchs need her dealt with now, so your choice would be limited to essentially kidnapping her and keeping her locked up for the next year while hooked on your blood or dealing with her in a more permanent fashion. |
| 305 | *** She's in another city, though, looking through that very big city for traces of her vampire and she'll have to try and get in with the vampire crowd to try and find him since she doesn't expect everyone to know him. It's already been awhile since she last fed from him and it'll be awhile before she becomes enough of a pain that the people in the new city want her dead. Maybe she'll have be able to have it wear off to the extent that she doesn't get herself killed and maybe the vampires elsewhere will kill her. Either way, it's not the LA Anarchs' problem anymore. |
| 306 | *** Which doesn't really solve the problem, just kicking it over to make it someone else's problem. Great short term, until she fucks up and the Cam has to step in. And of course they'd make sure to find out just who is responsible for ghouling this woman with no discretion, which points back to the LA Anarchs, which just reinforces the Camarilla's position that the Anarchs can't be trusted to keep the Masquerade. I mean sure that doesn't happen because the world ends less than a year after the end of the game, but it still brings up long-term problems since Patty can't keep her trap shut. |
| 307 | *** Ghouls are also walking Masquerade violations, literally. They are mortals who know that vampires exist. The fact they know this because a vampire decided they'd make a good superpowered servant is not relevant. They exist pretty much only as long as whoever's in charge decides to look the other way on this particular type of Masquerade violation. Now, the fact they're blood bound and will do pretty much anything their domitor says to get their next fix mitigates these problems somewhat, but it still comes down to the fact that this is a mortal who has knowledge of vampires and no concrete reason to keep that knowledge to themselves (provided they're young enough they can survive running out of blood in a month). Answers both "why can't the PC have multiple ghouls" and "why can't Patty be dealt with non-lethally" questions: If the PC starts collecting too many ghouls, the Prince can rule him/her a Masquerade violation and execute the lot of them. If Patty becomes too troublesome, the Prince can execute her and whoever made her for being Masquerade violations. |
| 308 | * Two things: One, Kent is dead, his remains can be found in Grout's mansion (as to why is it's own headscratcher, so I'll just leave it at that). Patty isn't blood-bound to him anymore, she's just starting to see the effects and the withdrawal of going without vamp blood and it's making her desperate. Two, sending Patty away is only an issue running under the assumption that Patty is a problem because somehow one girl in a club blabbing about Vampires is enough to blow the Masquerade wide open. It's not. The average person overhearing Patty is more than likely going to shrug it off as drugs, mental illness or drunken rambling and move on. Skelter says ''explicitly'' that they're worried about vampire hunters specifically, as Patty knows the Last Round is a vampire den. Patty is less a danger to the masquerade as a whole and moreso a danger to the Downtown Anarchs--all it takes is a vampire hunter with enough smarts to manipulate or threaten her into leading them there. If that happens, the Anarch HQ is toast and their leader now has a 3rd target on his back, which is basically the last thing ''on earth'' they need while trying to fend off Kuei-jin and Camarilla at the same time. So you sending Patty away does two things: A) It buys Patty time to recover from her withdrawal, because as noted, Kent is dead so she isn't bound to him anymore. Her behavior is solely due to withdrawal symptoms and desperation. B) It keeps Patty away from The Last Round, and thus quashes the threat of her leading anyone there. |
| 309 | ** To elaborate on the point above: the problem isn't that Patty is a ''ghoul'', the problem is that ''Patty'' is a ghoul. |
| 310 | [[/folder]] |
| 311 | |
| 312 | [[folder:Doctor Grout, the body of evidence]] |
| 313 | Grout's body. Since vampires seem to disappear when the die, why is there a skeleton in the bed of Grout's Mansion that is supposed to be Grout? Is Grout still "alive"? |
| 314 | * Maybe there's a kind of Buffy-logic operating here, where older vampires may leave behind a skeleton or something. However, every important vampire that gets ashed that you need to pick something up from (the only other that immediately jumps to mind is the Nosferatu in the sewers) leaves a skeleton, so I'd put it down to gameplay-storyline segregation. And anyway if Grout is alive, he sure as hell isn't when Bach blows his house up. |
| 315 | ** In the table-top, the amount of time it takes for a vampire's body to turn to ash depends on how long they've been around for. Very old vampires turn to ash pretty much instantly, while fledglings take days. Grout wasn't that old, so it would take his body more than an hour to turn completely to ash (we can assume he was killed just shortly before you arrived). |
| 316 | *** Just wondering if Grout took a skeleton from somewhere, sprinkled ashes over it, and headed out of town with his "wife" (the thing in the Aquarium being a decoy). |
| 317 | *** Ignore what you don't like. Sure perhaps Grout ran off (he can come back for his wife), I mean the Malkavian voices (as unpredictable and unreliable as they can be) could've warned him (or doomed him...) so either way it is - in true White Wolf fashion - up to your interpretation. |
| 318 | *** Hours-old shovelheads turn to ash instantly in this game. It's a simple case of artistic license. More interesting and less open to interpretation to find a pile of ashes and a skeleton on Grout's bed than nothing. |
| 319 | *** Unless I misunderstand, I feel like this "artistic license" should be applied to the shovelheads, not Grout. Grout's Final Death portrayal is realistic (for [=WoD=], of course), shovelheads' isn't, but it's just a gameplay technicality to show you they're vampires. Same reason mere mortals' bodies disappear in all manner of games, including this one. No one in their right mind should assume they literally vanish. |
| 320 | *** Grout ''definitely'' died recently when you found him (or at least, that's what we're meant to assume); his murderer (Ming Xiao wearing Nines' face) is leaving the house when you get there. |
| 321 | [[/folder]] |
| 322 | |
| 323 | [[folder:Chinese Tentacle Monsters]] |
| 324 | So what was Ming Xiao's final form? Is it something Kuei-Jin normally turn into? |
| 325 | * Nope but there are Kuei-Jin shape-shifting powers that can be customised so she will have chosen that as a war form. Best not to think why. |
| 326 | * Demon Shintai. It's a Kuei Jin discipline that grants a warform. Adds bonus attributes and in Xiao's case, apparently, the ability to barf acid. It looks different for every Kuei Jin, depending on their Beast (they call it the P'o, but a spade is a spade). Xiao must have been reading too much Lovecraft. |
| 327 | [[/folder]] |
| 328 | |
| 329 | [[folder:Ghouls, or drunk, mad, stupid humans?]] |
| 330 | Why do the vampires think Patty's a problem? Wouldn't Kine think she's either drunk, mad or looking for attention? |
| 331 | * Perhaps most of them. But you never know when the word could get out to a hunter. Or somebody who could uncover something. Or she could do something dangerous and stupid, as an example - going on TV and saying she's looking for her vampire master. Better safe than sorry, is the vampire's policy in most cases, also Patty is expendable. A counter question can be why do you think she is not, and could never <i>be</i> a problem? |
| 332 | * Skelter says flat out that they're worried about vampire hunters. Vampire hunters know vampires exist, they're not likely to dismiss talk of them as drunken rambling. Patty knows about the Last Round, that it's a Vampire Den--Skelter said she used to come there and act like she was a part of the vamp scene. All it takes is a vampire hunter being crafty enough to get her to either tell them about it or lead them there. The last thing the Anarchs need is for their HQ to be ambushed, their leader to become a target to hunters, or for them to need to move their hideout. Is it more important to save a big-mouthed ghoul they already didn't like than to avoid all that? Absolutely not. Hell yeah, Patty is dangerous and the fact that her addiction is clouding her logic is a massive liability. Kent is dead and thus never coming back to reign her in, so it leaves them with little choice in what needs to be done with her. |
| 333 | [[/folder]] |
| 334 | |
| 335 | [[folder:The VTM world seems "Normal"]] |
| 336 | Perhaps its due to the limited depth the game could go into, but asides from drinking blood and needing to hide from the sun (and all the cool powers being a Vamp get you), the Vampire world is full of centuries old conspiracy, deadly plots, backstabbing, politics, two faced scheming (literally...), sick freaks and violence due to opposing beliefs and world views. |
| 337 | * Just like RealLife. |
| 338 | * How is this supposed to be: The World of "Darkness"? |
| 339 | ** Just to state the obvious, the real world doesn't have vampires controlling it (that we know of). Besides, crime in the game seems a lot more widespread, as street fights start in the middle of the road, two gangs were trading something in a car park, and a weird, disease worshipping cult rose all at the same time in Downtown alone. The conversation with Wong Ho implies that vampires tend to bring crime with them as easy mooks, like Ming-Xiao. |
| 340 | *** Still sounds like a typical bad neighborhood actually. |
| 341 | *** In the real world, even in crappy neighbourhoods, the police usually have to announce themselves before shooting and museum security guards definitely do. The Police take a while longer to give up chasing violent murderers who attacked people in the street as well. Paramilitary groups can't operate out of Hollywood with impunity. And so on. The way White Wolf always meant it: it's our world with the bad bits turned up and the good bits turned down. |
| 342 | *** Ok, so its a bad neighborhood in Afghanistan then. |
| 343 | *** A bad neighborhood in Afghanistan in the United States. You don't want to know what oWoD Afghanistan looks like. |
| 344 | *** Perhaps some places ARE worse than others... Smiling Jack recalls seeing an entire Mexican town being turned into a resident Tzimisce's experiment ground. |
| 345 | [[/folder]] |
| 346 | |
| 347 | [[folder:Were-thing Power Discrepancy]] |
| 348 | It bugs me a little on a logistic note that you can actually fight the Rokea but not the Werewolf. Aren't those races about comparable in power level? And don't Werewolves take aggravated damage from flamethrowers just like the rest of us? |
| 349 | * As cool as it is to fight it, ditto. Rokea are a bit weaker than garou in their warforms (werewolves get +4 to strength, Rokea only +3) but they still are tough cookies to fight none the less. Could be that a werewolf MIGHT be using a fear-gift to make your vampire unable to fight it. |
| 350 | ** Sadly, unless using silver bullets, high explosives or industrial grade machinery, most vamps probably can't kill a werewolf. As to why the flamethrower didn't work in game, chalk it up to either gameplay and story segregation or the fact that these werewolves emerged unharmed from a forest fire, so its likely they had some way to counter fire. My guess is some form of magic or a stolen canister of liquid fire retardant. |
| 351 | *** Actually, in oWoD, killing A werewolf might be difficult, but doable for clever vampires. The point is that it's never A werewolf, but werewolves. With spiritual links to totems that give power, and their own magic powers. Oh yeah, and they can technically return from death's door. |
| 352 | *** All things being equal, a vampire is more or less physically on par with a crinos werewolf at Potence 2, Protean 2, Celerity 3 and Fortitude... 3 at least, I guess. Werewolves are tough out of the box, but not unkillable for a sufficiently combat stated vampire in a straight up fight. The PC should be able to kill the werewolf conventionally, I assume Troika just felt it would be more interesting to have the encounter be a puzzle rather than another boss battle. |
| 353 | *** Eh, we should remember that the werewolves depicted in [=VtM=] are supposed to be bigger and badder than the Garou from [=WtA=]. They are supposed to serve as antagonists and meeting one is ''supposed'' to go down like in Bloodlines. Troika very accurately captured how werewolves should be seen by Kindred perspective. Sure, if RAW is followed, the werewolves aren't really that scary, however, that's missing the intention behind them. The Lupines are purposefully not statted as [=WtA=] characters. |
| 354 | *** Are they supposed to be bigger and tougher in [=VtM=] than in [=WtA=]? I assumed they were supposed to be equivalent, and differences in statting were largely for the sake of saving storytellers from having to juggle multiple complex game systems at once. Either way, it doesn't explain why the game gives you the option of taking down a rokea in combat but not a werewolf; they're both fera, and are about as powerful. |
| 355 | *** Yes, the [=VtM=] werewolves are always depicted as the ultimate enemies of vampires. If you follow [=WtA=] rules, they aren't as scary - better at combat, but vampires can easily surpass them with some Disciplines. This also ties in with _why_ the werewolf in Bloodlines was depicted as the ultimate enemy of vampires. Sure, on mechanical level the Garou and Rokea are mostly similar but from vampiric in-universe perspective, the Lupines have always been the better predators and they've been cutting leeches to ribbons for a lo-o-ong while. Which is exactly why it makes sense to make the werewolf in-game be scarier than a just random shark-thing - it keeps the feel and intention of [=VtM=] intact. |
| 356 | *** I don't agree that making the werewolf invincible keeps the intention of [=VtM=] intact, not at all. If a vampire insisted on challenging a werewolf in a [=VtM=] game, the storyteller wouldn't simply say "nope, you can't hurt it, it's your ultimate enemy, you lose;" they would let the fight play out, and your typical neonate would more than likely be destroyed in the process. It doesn't matter how you slice it, there isn't really any reason for why Troika handled the werewolf in Bloodlines the way they did other than, simply, because it's a puzzle, not a fight. And it is absolutely incongruous with the level of power your character exhibits earlier in the game. You can and do fight foes in Bloodlines as challenging or moreso than a werewolf, but the werewolf is the only one that's technically impervious to your attacks, and it feels very much like an arbitrary decision made to force the player to deal with it in a particular way. |
| 357 | *** No, an ST wouldn't refuse the players challenged a werewolf. But if the ST threw one suddenly, it's usually not for the players to fight it. |
| 358 | *** But they could. And they could theoretically win. Especially if one of them was powerful enough to contend with foes on the scale of rokea, 7th generation Nagloper or elder Kuei Jin. The game doesn't seem to know how powerful the PC is meant to be, or it dramatically overestimates the relative power of a lupine. |
| 359 | *** RAW vs RAI, round bajillion: _start_! Or do you think it's getting silly? I've said my piece - it's RAI. You keep banging on about RAW. Repeating these over and over again doesn't get us anywhere. |
| 360 | *** Admittedly, I have only very little knowledge about [=WtA, buuut ... both it and VtM are RPGs=]. Whos to say that the Garou fought in Griffin Park isn't one who has just leveled much, much more than the player character and is therefore much more powerful? |
| 361 | ** I'm actually sort of curios now as to why the Vampires don't just firebomb suspected werewolf habitats. Nothing like a little deforestation and paving over the charred remains of your enemies and putting up a new shopping mall over their corpses to make a point. |
| 362 | *** It would work initially, but it would draw the ire of the entire Garou nation down on them. Which would be a breach of the Masquerade on MASSIVE proportions. And that's if the Garou didn't use their spiritual allies to make vampire lives miserable. I'm not saying the Kindred have no chance of winning, as they would have the mortal military and their own superpowered warriors on their side, but it would be ridiculously hard to cover up. Besides, vampires are immortal, whereas the werewolves are a dying race. A couple more generations and they'll be extinct anyway. Vampires can easily just sit in their cities and wait them out. |
| 363 | *** Except Vampires don't know that. But they do know that werewolves do live in cities as well, and that trying to firebomb a location that you don't even know for sure that they're there fore is unsubtle and draws unwanted questions to yourself. All vampires agree that the best course of action when dealing with werewolves is to just run and not engage them head-on. As for not using fire against them, Werewolves do have gifts to jam all technology and to control fire. A flamethrower would be useless against them. |
| 364 | *** Besides, Werewolves really do have much bigger problems than vampires infesting a city, and probably aren't making war on them wholesale. Sure, the ones in Griffith Park were patrolling, but the fact that they didn't attack you in Hollywood, and before the fire, never once made any trouble probably led the vampires to adopt a 'live and let live' policy. Werewolves for their part, probably didn't really care abut a few leeches in the city, and were probably much more focused on other problems. It's actually a bit of [[FridgeBrilliance Fridge Brilliance]] why they didn't attack earlier despite everyone thinking an Antediluvian was about to rise. A Wyrm demon as powerful as that would have drawn the attention of every Werewolf in the state. However, as everyone who has played the game knows [[spoiler: it's not]]. |
| 365 | * Remember that you fight the Rokea with Yukie. From a gameplay perspective, she's not much -- she tends to charge in and get repeatedly shredded by claws, or clumsily fire crossbow bolts when she doesn't actually have a line of fire -- but from a story perspective, she's a pretty awesome ally. She's a trained hunter who's been stalking your target for who knows how long, has an enchanted katana, and has possible access to Strike Force Zero tech. You don't get any help with the Werewolf -- Nines is knocked out of action before your fight even starts. |
| 366 | [[/folder]] |
| 367 | |
| 368 | [[folder:Orphaned Ghouls]] |
| 369 | Ghouls age with severe speed when they don't get their blood fix of the month. [[spoiler: [=LaCroix=] dies]] in all endings. Mercurio will age soon if he doesn't get another domitor. And the most curious part is that he doesn't seem troubled by the fact that you are going to [[spoiler: kill his domitor.]] He probably knows that he will die if you succeed. Why the hell didn't he stop you? And if he doesn’t die by the end of the month, who became his new domitor? Because a trained and useful ghoul is necessary, I doubt that the L.A Kindred won’t show some interest. |
| 370 | * You don't speed up in aging, you pick up right where you left off. Caipias Smith is the biggest example of this. |
| 371 | * Like a Mobster (who might actually have been before Ghouldoom) Mercurio's probably figured that he's made himself useful enough to the Camarila that they would make sure he's taken care of as long as he does his job. |
| 372 | * Is it ever directly stated that Mercurio is the prince's personal ghoul? Just because he takes orders from him and works for the Camarilla doesn't mean much. Since the Camarilla have a relatively strong hierarchy as far as sects go, it would not be surprising if his actual blood donator was some low-ranked Camarilla member who lets his ghoul work for the Cam or whatever. Considering that old, powerful and rich Ventrue tend to have a lot of servants and ghouls, it would probably get annoying on the long term to have to personally feed them regularly. |
| 373 | ** Good question! I believe it’s tacitly understood that he is [=LaCroix=]'s ghoul when he says: “Just so you understand, my loyalties are all but written in blood, so my opinion of the guy is moot.” I always got the impression that Mercurio was a fully-bounded ghoul when I heard that line. However, I can't tell you if it's actually said in the game, I haven't played it in a while, sadly. |
| 374 | ** I'm pretty sure he says he's never met [=LaCroix=] and so, even though it's possible that [=LaCroix=] donates blood and has it delivered once a month, I think it's more likely he's just somebody else's ghoul who works for [=LaCroix=]. |
| 375 | * I'm pretty sure he didn't try to stop me because I was a nigh-invulnerable uzi-packing killing machine, and he's just a fairly strong human who couldn't even handle a few thugs armed with pipes and pocket pistols. Better to bite his tongue and hope some other vampire sugar-daddy shows up than pick a fight with the PC and end up splattered all over his recently-cleaned couch. Plus the PC has good reason to gift him blood after [=LaCroix=] is finally dealt with, Mercurio being one of your best allies. |
| 376 | [[/folder]] |
| 377 | |
| 378 | [[folder:Over-feeding Ghouls]] |
| 379 | Speaking of Ghouls, does anyone have an idea of what would happen to one if its gets MORE than the bare minimum "blood fix"? |
| 380 | * While Jack was nice enough to offer a bare bones tutorial on how to be a Vampire, I don't recall anyone giving the PC any tips about: Care And Feeding of Ghouls. What "mistakes" can we assume the ignorant PC will make? |
| 381 | ** There isn't mutch to ghouls. They can hold some more Vitae than a single blood point. In fact, they don't need a monthly fix - they "digest" a blood point per month, so if you feed them three blood points, they theoretically have enough Vitae for three months. But vampires just like to keep them on a short leash. Also, ghouls can utilise the Vitae for very limited Kindred-like uses. They can use it to heal themselves, or increase their physical attributes, maybe fuel a Discipline if they have any that requires blood. But overfeeding may be a problem - the more vampire blood a ghoul has, the more irritable and generally angry they would be (they can frenzy and more blood means it's a higher chance...also a shorter temper. It's not a vampire frenzy - they'll just trash around or beat somebody.) if a ghoul does get overfed, they near lose it. They act as if they are on the mother of all Speed - they become violent and nearly mindless with bloodlust and anger. Some vampires even arrange fights between such ghouls. Or just unleash one and watch the lulz (most probably the Sabbat). |
| 382 | * If for some reason the PC was feeling touched (or just touched in the head) by Heather bringing "dinner" home and locking it in the bathroom for Master to feed, the PC returns the favor and drags another (staked) Vampire for her to drink from (perhaps even until final death). What happens to the Ghoul who diableried? |
| 383 | ** Nothing. Ghouls cannot diablerise anybody - only vampires can. What would happen is that the ghould would just have more Vitae to spare. And maybe overfed. |
| 384 | * As human blood packs and even ""Elder Vitae" (which I assume means blood from an Elder Vampire) can be found and fed on, can the PC not also stock up his/her own blood to sell or give for Heather's "packed lunch" for long term missions (perhaps even buying her time to find a new Master just in case.) |
| 385 | ** Yep. That's not problem, really. Ghouls can drink any Vitae - be it from somebody's wrist or from a cup or from a blood bag. I'd just assume that the blood bag would taste nastier, as it's cold (still delicios as it's Vitae). Other than that, there is no real problem with stocking up your ghoul with emergency supplies. Only the issue that you're not holding the leash close enough any more. |
| 386 | [[/folder]] |
| 387 | |
| 388 | [[folder:Two Sisters, One Body]] |
| 389 | Forgive my ignorance in matter, but: Therese originally developed Jeanette to cope with the abuse of her father (so, She's the original and only one while Jeanette is her split personality?) but then she kills her father after seeing him sleeping with Jeanette. Weren't they the same person!? Again sorry but I'm not very good with this kind of things... |
| 390 | * My understanding of it is that when Therese was human, she did have a real twin sister Jeanette, but then developed a second personality based on Jeanette after becoming a vampire. |
| 391 | * I thought that meant, Therese 'awakened' while the father was molesting 'Jeanette' and killed him then. |
| 392 | * You have to remember that they're Malkavian, and anything they say has to be taken with a grain of salt. It's entirely possible that Therese just eventually got fed up with being molested and killed her father, with Jeanette having nothing to do with it. |
| 393 | * If she developed the split personality before being Embraced, it's possible that her father "mistaking her for Therese" happened when the Jeanette personality was in control while she was sleeping. |
| 394 | [[/folder]] |
| 395 | |
| 396 | [[folder:Yukie's Armor/Cyborg Arm]] |
| 397 | Is Yukie's arm supposed to be cybernetic, or is she just wearing an arm guard? The game itself doesn't address this for some reason, and I've heard people say both. I immediately assumed it was cybernetic and was a Demon Hunter X/Strike Force Zero reference, but I know people who think it's an arm guard. |
| 398 | * The only people to possess cybernetics in the oWoD would be agents of the Technocracy. And in Yukie's case, that would seem quite out of place. |
| 399 | ** Really? I'm not familiar with what all Strike Force Zero actually has technologically, but I thought they dabbled in that sort of stuff. |
| 400 | ** Minor correction: some werewolves of the Glass Walker tribe have cybernetics too. But I highly doubt Yuki's one of them. It's probably an arm guard. See, to make advanced cybernetics work you need magitech or friendly Weaver spirits. World of Darkness tech is not much more advanced than real world tech outside those areas. |
| 401 | [[/folder]] |
| 402 | |
| 403 | [[folder:Cabbie's Accent]] |
| 404 | Is it just me, or does the cabbie's voice change as the game progresses? |
| 405 | * Yeah, probably. But that's not that surprising really. |
| 406 | * It's a deliberate choice. You'll notice that his accent slips into a classic VampireVords Dracula-like accent, and it's likely supposed to foreshadow his supernatural nature. |
| 407 | [[/folder]] |
| 408 | |
| 409 | [[folder:Elder Detecting Radar]] |
| 410 | Couldn't they just have used basic Auspex to check whether or not there was an Antediluvian in the sarcophagus? |
| 411 | * Well, presumably they could. Sort of. But there are lots of factors here. First, normally, Auspex doesn't work the like in the game - it doesn't give you the ability to see through walls. Second, let's say that it did function like in the game. There are lots of ways to hide your presence from Auspex. Maybe they did check but getting the mystical equivalent of "no response" doesn't really mean anything. Third, even if somebody ''did'' see there was somebody in the sarcophagus, it does not automatically mean it's an Antediluvian. It could be a newly Embraced vampire put there for a prank or a thousands of years old one - they would register the same. Fourth, there could be some mystical booby-traps strapped to the thing. Well, it's not ''that'' probably that somebody would put aggressive warding against peaking but why take the chance? Especially if the information you get won't mean much. Finally, it's not like that many vampires had access to the sarcophagus. [=LaCroix=] kept it safe and away from the rest - only Beckett would have had the chance to and, again, he either checked it and found that the data was meaningless or didn't because he knew from beforehand. |
| 412 | [[/folder]] |
| 413 | |
| 414 | [[folder:The Master Plan]] |
| 415 | I'm curious, what was Jack planning to do with the Antedeluvian? |
| 416 | * Uh, presumably, he knew from the very beginning that it was just a random sarcophagus without an Antediluvian. That said, almost any VTM vampire would attempt to either kill it or diablerize it if they really had a sleeping ancient in front of them. Even the "good guys" would be able to profit from a guy who suddenly obtained discplines on the 10th level, while killing an ancient world-devouring monstrosity is hardly all that evil. |
| 417 | * Professor Johansen received an anonymous tip-off as to the actual location of the tomb of Meserach, is it too much to suggest that Jack or the cabbie was giving him the location of a fake tomb or one they knew was empty? In true Vampire fashion this plot could have been planned out years ago, or simply hacked together in a few months (as to the player's interpretation). |
| 418 | [[/folder]] |
| 419 | |
| 420 | [[folder:To Be King]] |
| 421 | * Why can't you make a claim for the Princedom for yourself? Why isn't that an option at the end? After all, you have clearly demonstrated, between killing Andrei, killing Ming Xiao, and killing the Sheriff, that you have the physical power to hold the throne. Does anyone seriously suppose that you could not defeat Strauss too, or Nines, for that matter, if it really came to it? Just as importantly, though, depending on how you've played over the course of the game, is that you also have the political power and connections to claim the throne. Consider: you likely have a good relationship with Therese/Jeanette, the Baron of Santa Monica, who, despite technically being an Anarch Baron, has indicated her/their willingness to support the Camarilla; you also know the secret that they are really the same person, which she/they don't want widely known. So Therese/Jeanette would almost certainly support you, especially if you offered to install her/them as the new Malkavian primogen to replace Grout. You also likely have a good relationship with Isaac Abrams, Baron of Hollywood, and he might be induced to support you, although he does seem much more loyal to the Anarch cause than T/J. Nevertheless, should he prove difficult, it can't be ignored that you also have a very good relationship with the number two Toreador in Hollywood, Velvet Velour. You could always offer to install her as the Toreador primogen, if need be eliminating Isaac and putting VV in charge in Hollywood; she would probably support you, since she is, after all, head-over-heels in love with you. As for the Nosferatu, it is quite probable that you will have established good relations with Bertram Tung, Mitnick, Imalia, and Barabus, and that you will have come to some kind of understanding with Gary. You can probably get at least enough support from the Nosferatu; you know where their secret warren is located, and you know how to get in there, so you have some useful information to hold over them there. Also, Gary probably doesn't want all the Camarilla vampires in L.A. to know that he is also selling secrets to the Giovanni. Furthermore, you also have a decent relationship with Strauss himself, at least if you are considering the Camarilla ending, and you probably know that he was the maker of the Gargoyle that had been inhabiting the Chinese theater in Hollywood, so you have information you can hold over him, too, if it comes to that. Lastly, if you sold info to one of the Giovanni candidates for the Embrace while in the Giovanni compound, it is possible that you may have an ally among the Giovanni, which could prove politically useful, although, since the Giovanni are not part of the Camarilla, that would have to be in the nature of a hole card, not totally unlike [=LaCroix=]'s secret alliance with Ming Xiao. So, all in all, it seems clear that you have both the physical and political power by the end of the game to make your own claim to the position of Prince. So why isn't that an option at the end? |
| 422 | ** So much wrong with these claims. Here it goes: |
| 423 | *** ''you have the physical power to hold the throne'' - only it very rarely is about the physical power. Rarely a Prince rules just because they can fight well. In fact, it's more often that the Prince is just a facade being manipulated by the Primogen as a puppet. |
| 424 | *** Response: Physical power is a big part of it, as the game itself makes clear. Where would [=LaCroix=] have been without his sheriff? But yes, as I pointed out, the player has also built up a political base. And usually, there is a balance of power between the Prince and the Primogen. The Primogen are collectively more powerful than the Prince, but not individually. And the Primogen are not always, or even usually, united. |
| 425 | *** They sure as hell would be united if some upstart showed up and declared himself Prince. They all have plans of their own, and you don't factor into them. Why would any of them fuck tradition and elect a newbie? Vampires have plans that stretch on for decades and centuries, they don't get where they are by making spur of the moment decisions. And physically power is not a qualifer for the position, or else the Brujah would run every city. Once you get to that level, phsyical strength is irrelevant, as vampires of that age are versed in the Jyhad aka destroying enemies using pawns. |
| 426 | *** New response: Yes, they all have plans of their own, and yes, those plans are conducted according to long-term timetables, sometimes lasting centuries. So what? By definition, any plan stretching over that kind of time has to be highly flexible to be successful, including being prepared for the entry of new players and the removal of old ones. As for why they would permit a newbie, as you put it, to be Prince, a young vampire who has already demonstrated himself or herself capable of defeating powerful rivals (the Sabbat, the Kuei-jin, and the previous Prince), but who is still unversed in many of the intricacies of vampire politics, is in many ways a perfect choice. Such a vampire can hold the city against possible threats to the Camarilla, while not being able to threaten the plots of the Camarilla elders. |
| 427 | *** Newer Counter (Because TV Tropes doesn't accept anything beyond the third star): A young fledgling vampire is a liability, not an asset. You're great at fucking up peoples' day, but even a puppet prince has to project the idea that they are in control. Even by the end of the game you're still just a newbie; imagine that you had been working at a job for decades, climbing up the ranks, then suddenly this 16-year-old who has never worked a day in his life came in, did some impressive stuff and got promoted to the head manager. It doesn't matter how good the kid is, that is going to piss everyone off. Especially since you've done nothing that actually makes you Prince material; [[Franchise/{Halo} Master Chief]] is a kickass soldier who can slaughter armies, but nobody is going to be making him President of Earth. |
| 428 | *** ''Does anyone seriously suppose that you could not defeat Strauss too, or Nines, for that matter'' - Nines, ''maybe''. Strauss - no. The Tremere get friggin' damn powerful. They are known for cursing a whole clan, ''really'' badly. True, it took most of the Tremere to do that, however you did notice what one of the gentlest wards in the Chantry did - you were unable to go anywhere. Strauss has a heck of a lot tricks up his sleeve, if he really is worth the title Tremere Primogen. |
| 429 | *** Response: Strauss may be invincible inside his chantry, but a Prince who is invincible in his haven is not a Prince. He is a prisoner. And yes, the Tremere are powerful as a clan. All the clans are very powerful when they work together. That does not mean that any one member of that clan is that powerful. Remember that Strauss needed you to eliminate Ming Xiao and [=LaCroix=] for him. If the Tremere were as powerful as you say, they would just rule the world, but obviously they don't, because they're not. |
| 430 | *** New Counter: Why should he lift a finger himself? He's manipulating you into doing it for him. It serves his purpose better to keep his hands as clean as possible, so he can throw you under the bus the second you become a liablity. He didn't ''need'' you to eliminate Ming Xiao and [=LaCroix=], but it was advantagous for him to do so because if you failed, there's nothing linking you to him. So you win, he has two of his enemies eliminated, you lose, you're dead and there's no one to link him to you, so he escapes without repercussions. |
| 431 | *** New response: Even assuming that you are right, and that he could have dealt with both Ming Xiao and [=LaCroix=] on his own, but preferred to use you, that very logic continues after [=LaCroix=] is removed. It would continue to serve his purpose to support you as prince while acting as TheManBehindTheThrone. |
| 432 | *** Newer Counter: Except he doesn't need you to be TheManBehindTheThrone. After all you're a wildcard, difficult to control or predict. Plus, everything you do in the game is grunt work. You don't take grunts and put them behind a desk, especially not a desk that has power connected to it. |
| 433 | *** ''a good relationship with Therese/Jeanette, the Baron of Santa Monica, who [...] has indicated her/their willingness to support the Camarilla'' - also, your character is not the Camarilla. Assuming they claim the power, they would just be a random nobody until formerly recognised. Tourette doesn't have much to gain by associating with them, and actually a lot to lose in the eyes of the real Cam. |
| 434 | *** Response: According to Camarilla law, you're the Prince of a city if you declare yourself that and actually manage to govern the kindred community of that city. Gaining the support of the vampire who rules a quarter of that city would go a long way to making your claim stick, which is the whole point. |
| 435 | *** New Counter: Um, no. You are Prince of a city if the Camarilla lets you be Prince of the City. If some fledgling upstart declared himself Prince of LA, he would recieve a visit from several Justicars and Archons who would ''kindly'' tell them no. The Inner Council certainly wouldn't tolerate someone whose only a few weeks old from claiming the Princedom of one of the most important battlefronts they have, especially since you have to be at least 300 before you can be Prince. |
| 436 | *** The game itself says, during one of the load screens, that the Prince is the one who can claim and enforce dominion. Maybe in Europe, and perhaps even in the more anciently settled parts of America, the Camarilla cares about how old a Prince is. In L.A., they would be willing to accept a more unconventional choice, precisely because it is such an important battlefront. What they really care about in such a place is having a Prince who can hold the city against the Sabbat and the Kuei-jin, which you have just demonstrated that you can do pretty darn convincingly. That's going to be much more important to them than the number of years you've been around. |
| 437 | *** Newer counter: Um, no. The Camarilla is not the sect that goes around making exceptions. They are tradition personified. They have a system they have been using for centuries, if some upstart says "the system doesn't work" the system turns them to ash. You're not even a year old, why would they trust you with the keys to a city they want instead of taking an agent that they've had for years and placing them in LA (which is what they did in Canon after the events of the game; they took someone else from another state and moved her to LA to take over as Prince)? It doesn't matter who you know in L.A, you don't know anyone in Europe and that's all that matters in the Camarilla. Even the American Cammies are pissed that they have to wait and take orders from a council back in Europe, but that is the way the system is set up. Plus, you held the city ''as a foot soldier.'' That doesn't make you Prince Material. If anything that is the single biggest reason why you will never be Prince; because you serve the Camarilla's interests best when you're on the front lines. A prince is kept as far away from the front lines for the same reason the President of the United States isn't leading the charge in Iraq; because you don't want your leader to get killed or capture, so you keep them out of harms way. And unfortunately for you, you're only useful when you're in harms way. |
| 438 | *** ''especially if you offered to install her/them as the new Malkavian primogen to replace Grout'' - only she wants to be the Prince of Santa Monica. |
| 439 | *** Response: She specifically says to you at one point that she wants to cut a deal with the Camarilla, and that she is willing to deliver Santa Monica to the Cam if the price is right. You can convince her that the price is right relatively easily. |
| 440 | *** New Counter: Unlikely, seeing as she wants the title of Prince, why settle to play second-fiddle to someone a lot younger than herself? Santa Monica is far enough away from LA that she could cut a deal with the Camarilla a lot easier than she could cut one through you that puts you above her. |
| 441 | *** She specifically tells you that she wants to cut a deal with the Camarilla, specifically referring to Prince [=LaCroix=]. Why wouldn't she be willing to cut a similar deal with you? Sure, maybe she could go to the Camarilla elders and make a separate deal with Santa Monica as a separate Principality, but she never expresses any interest in doing that. Besides which, given what you know about the real relationship between the sisters, she has every reason to stay on your good side, and, at the same time, she has every reason to think she can work well with you, since you have already cooperated successfully, and you have kept her confidences. |
| 442 | *** Newer Counter: See previous comment about a 16-year-old becoming head of a company. She worked well with you, when she was bossing you around. That doesn't mean that she's going to be okay with calling you boss, especially when ''she doesn't need you.'' The Prince is one way to deal with the Cam, but it's far from the only way. Therese backing you as Prince only benefits you; even as Primogen she only gets the power you let her have. She holds out and deals with the Cam directly, she becomes Prince of Santa Monica. Also you know the real relationship between the sisters, '''she doesn't.''' She honest-to-god believes Jeanette is a separate person, so what motivation does she have to stay on your good side? The only thing you know that most others don't is that the sisters are actually one person, which is also something that due to her own insanity she could never acknowledge, so in short you have nothing on her. |
| 443 | *** ''You also likely have a good relationship with Isaac Abrams, Baron of Hollywood, and he might be induced to support you'' - Yes, an Anarch Baron would support you becoming a Camarilla Prince. Think about it for a second. Yes, he ''could'' support you in claiming a Baron title (maybe) but that's not really Prince, now is it. But were that the case, ''maybe'' Tourette could throw in with you, if the Camarilla withdraw. |
| 444 | *** Response: You're missing the point. Any Camarilla Prince of Los Angeles is inevitably going to have to come to some kind of modus vivendi with the Anarchs if he is ever going to make his claim to rule stick. Every prominent member of the Camarilla with any kind of interest in what goes on in L.A. would know this. If you can leverage your relationship with Abrams to arrive at some kind of working relationship with the Anarchs of Hollywood, that would go a long way in the eyes of the Camarilla elders toward cementing your claim to be Prince of L.A. |
| 445 | *** New Counter: The only reason the Anarchs even tolerated the Camarilla coming in again was because after 5 years of war with the Kuei-Jin they couldn't muster the strength to fight on two fronts. But you've gone and weakened both sides, so why would they tolerate you trying to become another dictator instead of doing what they do and kicking the Cam out of the Anarch Free State again? Isaac only bothered talking to you because you were too young to really know any better, and he was trying to get you to swing around and join the Anarchs. He doesn't want the Camarilla in the free state '''period''', and the second you broach the idea with him the second he'll see you as just being another Cammy Facist and cut off all contact with you. |
| 446 | *** New response: Everything you are saying about Abrams' likely course of action in the aftermath of the game would be true regardless of who the Prince is. At least with you, Abrams might conclude he could work out some kind of modus vivendi, especially since you have something he wants very badly: you are the only one who knows what became of his childe Ash, about whom he cares personally and deeply. |
| 447 | *** Newer Counter: You really think you're the only one who knows? That's cute [[VerbalTic Boss]]. He's Anarch all the way, there is no dealing with the Camarilla for him. He tells you flat out his city doesn't need the Camarilla. You come up to him and say "Hey, I can be the linchpin holding the Cam in L.A. together" and his response is going to be "That's great kid. Hey remember that Gargoyle you got to work for me?" *Gargoyle SMASH!* There is no dealing with "you" when talking about the Prince. You deal with the Camarilla and how much room on the leash they decide to give you. That's how they always worked, only a fool would think that you would be any different. |
| 448 | *** ''You can probably get at least enough support from the Nosferatu; you know where their secret warren is located, and you know how to get in there'' - and? You don't actually think that they'll ''let you'' inside if they don't want to. You saw the ashed vampires littering the tunnels - you went in, because they allowed it. They have defences prepared for something far worse than a fledgeling with an uncanny luck and power. Oh, also, the Nosferatu are quite fond of collapsing and reshaping tunnels, if they feel the need. Potence, strategically placed support, explosives - what good are Nosferatu tunnels if they can only stay stationary and once breached are useless? It even matters little whether somebody is in the tunnel or not at the same time as they disappear. |
| 449 | *** Response: If you go in making threats to break into their warrens and smash up the place, of course that's not going to work. If you tell Gary that you think you could have a profitable partnership, and remind him that you've proven that you can keep his confidences, he might well decide that you are his choice to be Prince. That's how politics works: you get people to support you by pointing out how they themselves can benefit from having you in charge. |
| 450 | *** New Counter: Gary may be the Primogen of LA, but he does have elders who he listens to. If they say "fuck this fledgling" then he'd simply vanish. The whole point of the game was that everyone was using you for something or another, you do not have the power in any relationship. The independent ending was having you acknowledge this and reject the society that no matter what will see you being used by others. And you haven't proven you can keep his confidences, since he never told you anything that could hurt him. |
| 451 | *** New response: Yes, Gary has to answer to the Nosferatu elders. But if he tells them that he's already got a pretty good working relationship with you, and that you seem like someone who can hold the city for the Camarilla while also being good for the Nosferatu, why wouldn't they figure, 'hey, if the top Nosferatu on the scene seems like this is someone we can do business with, than this is probably someone we can do business with, so why not let him be Prince?' Also, yes, Gary has to answer to the Nosferatu elders, but like any politician, he also has to answer to his followers as well, and keep their loyalty. It's not like Gary is so ancient--he was turned in the twenties or thirties, after all--so it's hardly like he can keep control of the other Nosferatu by sheer power. And you have also got a good relationship with the other Nosferatu: you've done favors for Mitnick, Imalia, Barabus, and Bertram. That last one is critical, because Bertram, remember, defied Gary's order: when Gary told all the Nosferatu to withdraw into the lair, Bertram stayed out in Santa Monica. That suggests that Gary's own hold on power is not perfectly secure, which means that he has to pay some attention to what his followers want. If they like you, that means Gary may like you too. Also, to repeat, you have kept his confidences: you never revealed to anyone that he was selling info to the Giovanni, or the location of his lair. So yes, you do know things that could hurt him, and you've kept them a secret. |
| 452 | *** Newer Counter: The answer is that the Nosferatu will toe the party line in public and go with whoever the Camarilla wants. And the Camarilla does not, under any circumstances, no matter how awesome you are, want a vampire who is less than a year old taking what is seen to be a high position of power. That is a great way of having a second Anarch Rebellion as all these fledglings decide they want to be princes to. Also Bertram didn't defy Gary's orders, he literally could not return because he was in hiding from Therese. Not to mention the distance between Santa Monica and Hollywood. For the last part, the Nosferatu aren't going to give a fuck who knows he sold info to the Giovanni. [=LaCroix=] already knew Gary betrayed him, and you went to the Giovanni's mansion and fucked shit up, and when you left you had the AS with you. People are going to put two and two together. Plus he can turn completely invisible, he knows where you live, who you know, what you know. You threaten him with revealing any of his secrets? He can fuck you up in so many ways it's not funny. And so many of those ways don't involve him being in the same city as you. There is a good reason why [=LaCroix=] stops himself from doing anything to Gary out of his revenge; nobody who pisses off the Nosferatu lives; they've fucked up Tremere Antriburi and Giovanni elders who made the mistake of crossing them. You're a fledgling vampire with no real support, no real power, who is getting too big for his bridges and is making enemies. |
| 453 | *** The same Gary who has items collected immediately from your postbox and can have posters put up in your haven within seconds of you leaving the room. He's got cameras AND an obfuscated agent in your lair at all times, there's no other way. |
| 454 | *** ''Also, Gary probably doesn't want all the Camarilla vampires in L.A. to know that he is also selling secrets to the Giovanni.'' - and what would the Cam do? Stop getting information from the information dealers? [[SarcasmMode Ooh, that'll really show those nasty Nosferatu!]] Besides, Gary's actions have made it quite clear that he doesn't care much about the Camarilla. Unless there is something to gain from supporting the Cam, there wouldn't be much of a reason for him to do it. Hell, he probably threw in with them in the first place only to get a shiny title and we saw that he wasn't really into it. |
| 455 | *** Response: Exactly: he can gain something from supporting you. He gets a Prince of L.A. whom he knows will keep his secrets. He gets a partner at the top, one whom he knows will be grateful for his support. He knows from prior experience that you are willing to work with him. That's a good deal for him. |
| 456 | *** New Counter: He doesn't need your support for anything; he has the Nosferatu. And he already knows that the Prince of L.A will keep his secrets, because that Prince won't know his secrets. You never learn anything about Gary of his plans that he does not allow you to know, he gains nothing from you being Prince anyway, so really where is the incentive for him to stick his neck out for you? He has his own elders who have their own agendas and you don't fit into any of them. So it's really not a good deal for him because you can't offer him anything he doesn't already have or could get. |
| 457 | *** See response above. Just to reiterate, yes, he has the Nosferatu elders to worry about, and he may not want them to know he was selling secrets to the Giovanni. And even if they don't care, they have to appear to care to the rest of the Camarilla, since they are supposedly a loyal Camarilla clan. |
| 458 | *** Newer Counters: The Nosferatu Elders, Justicars, Archons and Inner Council wouldn't give two shits who he sold information to. They are information brokers, the clan has a whole doesn't give a fuck about the Camarilla or the Sabbat, they are clan first and foremost. And they don't have to appear to care about it to the rest of the Camarilla either; this is not a new revelation, nor is it worth anything. The information Gary stole was about a fancy coffin speculated to contain something the Camarilla denies even exists. It was important to [=LaCroix=], but not his elders. |
| 459 | *** ''Furthermore, you also have a decent relationship with Strauss himself'' - yes, actually it's possible Strauss ''might'' support you as a Prince, if he could pull strings behind the scenes, that is. However, assuming you get his support, that comes in conflict with Isaac and the Anarchs. And moving against Isaac would automatically set out the Anarch against you. It is also unknown how others would react to this, too. And the Kuei-jin, woul=nded as they are (basically, only having lost a leader) can still swoop in and worsen the situation. |
| 460 | *** Response: I don't know how many casualties you inflicted on the way to Ming Xiao, but in my experience, the Kuei-Jin lost more than just one leader, although that in itself is a catastrophic loss, since she was by far the most powerful Kuei-Jin in L.A.; at the very least, though, they have already lost some of their best agents, including the Chiang brothers and the Cathayan. Also, yes, Strauss would want some things from you in exchange for his support. That's the point. You have things you can give him. You might look attractive to him as the public face of the Camarilla, especially ''because'' you have a decent relationship with many of the leading Anarchs. Remember, ''any'' Camarilla Prince has to be able to come to some kind of arrangement with the Anarchs in order to hold onto power in the long term. |
| 461 | *** New Counter: The Kuei-Jin wouldn't be stupid enough to put everyone in the same compound. They still have all of Asia to draw new soldiers from, and you know what happens when you kill a leader in an organisation? Someone else replaces them. You gave them a set back, but they're expecting a tough fight anyway, they'll be back. And there is no garuentee that Strauss would back you; the Tremere would idealy want someone who they could manipulate as Prince, and a staunch traditionalists. He would never put a fledgling in charge of the most important city in the state (which by the way, both the Camarilla and the Sabbat want badly; the Sabbat because they're trying to control both coasts so they can control all kindred traffic into the US, and the Cam to stop the Sabbat from doing just that), because again you have to be 300 years dead before you can even be considered for Prince. |
| 462 | *** New response: First, they have all of east Asia, not all of Asia. Second, the Kuei-jin probably will send a replacement at some point in the future, but that's an argument for you as Prince, not against you. The Camarilla is going to want someone who has demonstrated his ability to defeat the Kuei-jin if and when they come back. The same is true regarding the Sabbat. The Camarilla elders might very well decide that, as someone who has demonstrated his ability to drive the Kuei-jin and Sabbat out of L.A., you are a good choice as Prince. Also, your youth as a vampire could, again, very well work in your favor: you are too young to have enough knowledge yet about the Camarilla's internal politics to be a threat to the elders, while at the same time being strong enough to hold L.A. for them. That's a pretty good combination for them. Especially after the fiasco with [=LaCroix=], who was definitely a potential threat to the whole Camarilla power structure, what with his plan to diablerize an antediluvian. A strong and capable neophyte might look very attractive under those circumstances. |
| 463 | *** Newer Counter: You know here is the single biggest problem with your argument; you are listing off all the traits that makes the PC great at being on the front lines to justify taking them as far away from the front lines as problem. You fought the Kuei-jin off, that is an argument to keep you on the front, fighting off reprisals, not sitting back telling others who couldn't get the job done before you to do it. Let's look at the Brujah Archon Theo Bell; he's an utter badass who slaughters Sabbat during his segments in the clan book novels, way beyond what you do in the game. But he is not given the Princedom, nor is he even considered for it. He's kept on as an Archon because that is what he's good at; actually fighting on the front lines, not sitting behind a desk micromanaging. Now look at the Princes, not just in Bloodlines but in the novels; some of them can hold their own in a fist fight, but all of them are administrators, politicians, people whose contributions to the Camarilla aren't with (direct) violence. Imagine if a soldier ran for President on the platform "we're at war with (X) and (Y), we need someone with experience fighting them on the ground to run the country." "Mr. Soldier man, what are your qualifications?" "Well I'm an utter badass at killing (X) and (Y) on the front lines. I mean seriously, I'm a better ass kicker than anyone else in the area. I've more or less single-handedly wiped them out for the time being." "So...your plan to save us from (X) and (Y), is to remove yourself from the environment where you were head and shoulders better than the rest of your peers, so you can command the people who you've previously established as your inferiors in the ass-kicking department, to go and do the job that they failed to do before you arrived, and will most probably fail to do after you leave?" |
| 464 | *** ''it is possible that you may have an ally among the Giovanni'' - again, not Camarilla. And, at most, you have a fledgeling Giovanni as an ally. Which means, that's the lowest of their ranks, sans the unEmbraced ones. It doesn't exactly help you in any way. That is ''if'' they consider throwing in any support at all. |
| 465 | *** Response: It's at least ''a'' connection, which is more than anyone else in L.A. can say. And that connection, again, might be useful in the future, if nothing else as a source of information on the movements of a powerful independent faction among the city's Kindred. Politics is all about connections and alliances. You never know when you make such a connection how it might be useful in the future. The point is, though, that by the end of the game, you know just about every prominent vampire in L.A., have a good or at least decent relationship with almost all of them, and have some key pieces of information about some of them. The point is not that you can therefore start making threats and bossing everyone around. The point is that you can make it worth the while of enough of the powerful factions in the city to make a claim to the throne. They all have an interest in supporting you. That's the point. |
| 466 | *** New Counter: The Camarilla consider the Giovanni a joke, and any vampire over 100 would laugh in your face if you call that an ally. And no, you do can't make it worth the while of anyone to have you claim the throne, because all of those people are using you just as much as you are using them, and all of them can simply claim the "throne" for themselves. |
| 467 | *** New Response: What is your source for the claim that the Camarilla consider the Giovanni a joke? I've never seen a source that said that, and it's certainly not the impression one gets within Bloodlines itself. Secondly, yes, the other factions are also using you as you use them. That's what politics is: mutual beneficial alliances. And no, they can't just claim the Princehood for themselves: the Prince needs the support of the Primogen. All the sourcebooks and Bloodlines itself are all very clear on that point. No one member of the Primogen, with the exception of Strauss, has the personal power and the necessary alliances in place to get that support, and Strauss still needs your support. Based on the Anarch ending, without your support, Strauss probably can't get the support of the Primogen and hold L.A. against the Anarchs. |
| 468 | *** Newer Counter: Okay, look at the Assamites. When the Camarilla finished a war with them they had the Tremere go and put a blood curse on them. What did the Cam do to the Giovanni? Nothing. They are a joke; every Gehenna scenario started with Papa Giovanni dying. The guy with the powers of an Antideluvian and he always dies first. They are a non-factor in the Jyhad, at least the Assamites are uber-assassins, and the Setties are master politicions and corrupters. |
| 469 | *** All debate aside, why grab power then and there? Within the brief time frame of the game you've garnered more influence than any fledgling could reasonably hope for. Time spent among vampire politics has likely impressed upon you the importance of patience, and now that the coming storm has been quelled you have all the time in the world. As Strauss' wing man you're in an ample position to seize power at your leisure, preferably at a juncture where the rest of the Camarilla won't call a blood hunt for your impudence. Declaring yourself prince is just asking for a fight, and one that you don't have a reasonable chance of winning; regardless of your powers, there are still vampires stronger than you and in numbers that the combined vampires of LA couldn't resist even if you could ensure their loyalty. Siding with the Camarilla is essentially a statement by the player and his avatar that they know how vampire politics work and are willing to play the game, albeit in a position where they can come out on top, eventually. |
| 470 | *** First of all, because it would be a very satisfying ending to the game itself, which is the key point. You said it yourself: the game already has you gaining both physical and political power much faster than a fledgling vampire in the pencil-and-paper version of the game ever could. Given that, it would be perfectly reasonable, within this game, for that process to culminate with you becoming Prince. Also, you spend the entire game traveling all over the city, meeting and talking with all the power players in the vampire politics of L.A., doing them favors and establishing relationships with them. An ending in which you go to each faction in turn and cut one final deal with each to get them to agree that, if you can get rid of Ming Xiao and [=LaCroix=], they will back you as Prince, would be a very cool ending to the game. It would also be a great [[BookEnds book-end]] to the game: the game begins with a meeting of all the major power-players summoned by [=LaCroix=] to watch your sire's execution, and so many important members of the cast are there: Nines, Isaac, Therese, V.V., Strauss, etc. If the game were to end with another meeting, this time called by you, to watch you execute [=LaCroix=], that would be a great CallBack to the beginning. |
| 471 | *** Besides that ending being the ultimate MarySue SpecialSnowflake cliché storm that White Wolf would have rejected outright, why end as being Prince? It is actually not that great; the Camarilla is a pyramid scheme, you only rise up in the ranks if you conform to the system. You don't conform, the Cam doesn't want you rocking the boat. Plus all of those factions have mutually exclusive goals; Nines wants the Cam out '''period.''' He will not compromise on this, you give him a scenario where he can force them from the Anarch Free State and he will fucking take it. Every conversation with him shows he won't compromise on his beliefs. Isaac wants Hollywood kept out of the Cam's hands, and ultimately if the Camarilla wants Hollywood and you say no, they will just kill you, give one of your primogen your place and take it. Therese's interactions with you involved you as her lackey. V.V's involved you as a lackey, Strauss involved you as a lackey. That is the whole point of the Independent Ending; you recognise that ultimately everyone is using you, your only shot at freedom and actual power is to fuck all the establishments and factions and make your own path. |
| 472 | *** At the end of the day, the Cam are far too traditional to allow you to be a prince at your age. One might say their primary weakness is their rigid code of rules and traditions; that's why all the Anarchs hate them. You might be eligible to be a Baron (the Anarch equivalent to a prince, but over a smaller area), but you then have to ask: "the Baron of what?". Nines would undoubtedly control downtown (given that Strauss doesn't), with the rest of the Anarchs fighting you tooth and nail if you interfere. Therese/Jeanette already controls Santa Monica, Isaac controls Hollywood, and the Nossies own the sewers. The only way for you to claim a domain without stepping on any toes would be to claim Chinatown. This is probably the only possible outcome that gives you control of anything: There is no baron of Chinatown now that Xiao is dead, and the other barons would at least have some motive to throw their weight behind you there: so that your domain could act as a buffer to slow the Kuei-Jin's retaliation. Any other claim would turn half the city against you. |
| 473 | [[/folder]] |
| 474 | |
| 475 | [[folder:Kuei-Jin Variety]] |
| 476 | ...I hope this eventually gets seen. I don't know if it fits, but what sort of kuei-jin is Ming Xiao, anyway? I don't know enough about them. |
| 477 | * The Kuei-Jin don't really have "sorts" in the same way Kindred/Cainites do. From a starting point a Kuei-Jin is just a Kuei-Jin. The only real distinction is which philosphy on unlife a Kuei-Jin follows, that's what determines what powers they can use etc. And since, like Kindred, some powers are commen to more than one philosphy and you can learn powers not commen to yours anyway the only way to really know what Ming Xiao is would be to sit down and have a long philosphical chat with her. So sorry, probably not answerable. |
| 478 | * Her Dharma is pure speculation, but she uses powers from Flesh Shintai (masquerading as Nines), Demon Shintai (the warform she uses to fight you in the endgame), and I believe Tapestry (teleportation). |
| 479 | [[/folder]] |
| 480 | |
| 481 | [[folder:Sabbat Recording and Editing Studio]] |
| 482 | The tape in the Hollywood segment that kicks off Andrei's involvement in the plot? Why and how does it exist? We KNOW the D.M.P. dudes didn't make it. Andrei may be surprisingly adept at modern technology if his prank calling's any indication, but if he DID make it, how did the camera track the girl all over the mansion without her noticing? Look at some of those angles: she's clearly ''looking right into it'' more than once. I get that without the tape, the plot would come to a grinding halt, but its very existence Just Bugs Me. |
| 483 | * Maybe he installed hidden cameras in his mansion, for precisely that purpose. It seems pretty clear that he lured the girl on the tape to his mansion for the express purpose of having his creatures kill her. Why not record it? He doesn't seem surprised at all when you arrive, so it's possible that he's been filming you too, and has been watching your progress through the mansion on closed-circuit television. |
| 484 | * Erm, a couple of shovelheads with Obfuscate 1 and a camera? It's perfectly reasonable - it could have even been Andrei...although he would have needed to move awfully fast to capture everything from different angles. But could have been him and one or two others - no problem. Alternatively, just have cameras everywhere as was suggested - combine CCTV with, say, a few of cameras with simple left/right remote movement (maybe up/down, if you're feeling generous) mounted for precisely filming, and you can get different angles, plus pans across the room and so on. And different combinations of those. And finally, it's not even hard to set everything up - you know whoever comes around would be coming, you can prepare, moreover, it's easy to Dominate the person beforehand and order them to take a specific route ('''When you enter, go up the stairs and into the room. Now forget you saw me.'''). Sure, they ''could'' not comply but whatever - just grab another meatbag and repeat - it's not like Andrei or the Sabbat would care about wasting human life. |
| 485 | * Maybe Andrei fleshcrafted the cameras into the walls? |
| 486 | ** Dominating would explain a problem I'd had where the girl has no reason to be there, looks freaked out, but doesn't head for the door immediately when she's only two feet away from it. |
| 487 | [[/folder]] |
| 488 | |
| 489 | [[folder:Cover]] |
| 490 | Who is the guy in silhouette on the cover and what's that symbol he's casting? |
| 491 | * The man: he always reminds me a bit of the Prince. I'm not sure why, though. More realistically, it could be the cabbie. It could also be nobody in particular - a shrouded/silhouette of somebody is not terribly uncommon, moreover both the [[http://www.booksofparadise.net/shop_image/product/SF603.jpg old]] and the [[http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/bestselling-sci-fi-fantasy-2007/1101-1.jpg new]] [=WoD=] books have something similar on the front. It could be a callback to that. |
| 492 | * The symbol: it's [[http://news.tgn.tv/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/200px-LogoVampireAnkh.png an ankh]] - you see it a lot in the game - it's in the menu, it's on [=LaCroix's=] desk, etc. The ankh is the logo of Vampire the Masquerade...more or less, that is. It's featured in A LOT of artwork, covers and even page decorations. It even comes in several versions - among them is [[http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/62873/CamarillaAnkh.png the Camarilla one]], [[http://images3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090120053307/whitewolf/images/1/1d/LogoSectSabbat.png the Sabbat one]], and even [[https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7167/6629018531_5c03370f9c.jpg the Anarchs]] have one...that weirdly combines and builds on top the other two. |
| 493 | * To combine the two the Ankh (originally a symbol of immortality in Ancient Egypt) symbolises vampires in general. As such a character casting a shadow over all vampires I'd guess is [[spoiler: the cabbie/Caine.]] |
| 494 | [[/folder]] |
| 495 | |
| 496 | [[folder:Burn the Devils!]] |
| 497 | Flamethrowers. Why weren't the Society of Leopold hunters armed with them? There's even one lying around near the end of the mission (assuming it wasn't just added in the unofficial patch). Surely they must have had some idea that vampires don't handle fire very well. |
| 498 | * Because Vampires handle guns very well, and one shot to the fuel tank and it's the hunter who's going up in flames. Plus using a flamethrower tends to set the environment on fire as well which can just as easily backfire on the hunter and help the Vampire escape. |
| 499 | ** I think they'd be more worried about being shot in the face. And they didn't seem to have much problem using explosives. |
| 500 | *** A bullet to the face kills you pretty much instantly. A shot to the fuel tank will set you on fire, which will take longer to kill you in a very painful way. And explosives are easier to manage than fire if you do it right; most explosives are more shrapnel than flames and you can predict how it will effect things. Once you set something on fire the fire will do whatever the hell it wants to do, which is burn everything around you. Great if you want to burn down the building you're currently in, but not so great otherwise. |
| 501 | *** Also guns and even explosives are legal to own if you have the right licenses. I'm not that up on American law but I'd be very surprised to learn that a civilian can get a license for a military flamethrower so, given that the Society has to operate incognito most of the time, making flamethrowers standard equipment would just get them arrested. |
| 502 | *** From cracked.com's article "7 Items You Won't Believe Are Actually Legal" February 2009 item 7 "There are currently no federal laws governing or restricting the ownership of flame-throwing devices. Some states have laws restricting possession of flamethrowers, with violations only considered to be misdemeanors, but 40 states have absolutely no laws whatsoever concerning flamethrowers. Only in America would a device capable of launching rivers of fire at people be less regulated than marijuana." |
| 503 | ** Put simply, flamethrowers are too much hassle. They're expensive, hard to find, harder to build, notoriously unreliable, heavy, difficult to use, difficult to control, impossible to legally carry in public in an urban setting, difficult to keep supplied with combat-grade fuel and very easy noticeable. The increase in kill-power isn't worth it. |
| 504 | *** Unless you're fighting things that are extremely vulnerable to fire and extremely invulnerable to bullets, then it's very much worth it. But the real answer, obviously, is because game balance. Realistically every last hunter on guard duty in that place should have been carrying a flamethrower. |
| 505 | *** Range is a factor though. Sure, vamps are very vulnerable to flames but you still need to get close enough to them to kill them with a flamethrower, which has pretty shallow range. Vamps, in turn, can shoot your gastank from quite a far range and send you up in flames before you even get ''remotely'' close enough to do any damage to them. And good luck landing a hit on ''any'' vampire with Celerity using such a low-range, high-risk weapon like a flamethrower. Guns may not be the most ''efficient'' way to kill a vampire, but they will allow hunters to actually ''survive'' their encounters with vampires and will still get the job done eventually. |
| 506 | [[/folder]] |
| 507 | |
| 508 | [[folder:Fresh Pizza]] |
| 509 | Why is there a seemingly fresh pizza in the first apartment? PC can't have ordered that or if s/he did, for what reason? |
| 510 | * It may have been left behind by the previous occupant. |
| 511 | ** Now that you mention it[[WhatHappenedToTheMouse ... What happened to the previous occupant?]] It seems a bit odd that the Prince has a haven with a freshly ordered pizza in it. |
| 512 | ** The previous occupant was probably another vampire. Now imagine you're a vampire, you're weakened and in dire need for blood and got the option to have a delivery boy/girl appear at your doorstep in 20 mins. And now you got a delivered pizza lying around. |
| 513 | [[/folder]] |
| 514 | |
| 515 | [[folder:Why pretend that we're dead?]] |
| 516 | Why is it cool for Ash to pretend to still be alive and pretty much live his same life but 'retired from acting' but you can't even let Samantha know you're 'alive' without getting a Masquerade violation? Even if Samantha calls everyone you know, it's got to be less people than who know about celebrity Ash Rivers. And Ash can't be that much older than you are because it hasn't reached the point where he can't explain why he's not aging. |
| 517 | * Because Ash was already a celebrity. Nothing to be done about that. Better he stops doing movies, appearing on talk shows etc and slowly slides from public knowledge ''then'' vanishes rather than vanish at the height of his fame when everyone and their dog will be looking for him. You're a nobody, more or less, you vanishing will attract very little attention, so that's what happened. However now that you ''have'' vanished you reappearing will result in questions you can't safely answer. |
| 518 | ** Other famous vampires (particularly Nosferatu) just have their deaths faked and no one is suspicious at all. And Samantha comes up with two potential scenarios for why you disappeared and reappeared in two minutes: drugs and amnesia. Ash also does just go missing when he leaves the club and then he decides to never return after his face is branded so there is suspicion there. It really seems like Isaac's indulging him since he feels guilty and Ash is his current favorite. |
| 519 | ** Remember too that Ash is technically Anarch, while the player is technically Camarilla until the final two missions (after which they can either stay Camarilla, go Anarch or go independent). While the Anarchs follow the framework of the Masquerade and do uphold it, they very well may have their own different rules about how to deal with an embrace of a famous person. Certainly, the sudden and non-consensual nature of Ash's embrace was similar to the player's. Logic follows that if the Anarchs followed the exact rules of the Masquerade that the Cam do, neither Isaac nor Ash would be around still and Nines wouldn't have felt your execution was unfair enough to intervene. The Nosferatu and you are all Camarilla, and thus have to follow the strict rules they enforce or face execution. |
| 520 | [[/folder]] |
| 521 | |
| 522 | [[folder:LaCroix's not the boss of me now!]] |
| 523 | Why don't you have the option to stop blindly following [=LaCroix=] towards the end of the game when it's clear he's sided with Xiao and has been trying to kill you by sending you by yourself to deal with the Sabbat? The "[=LaCroix=] wasn't expecting you" can't be more clear. He's not even really trying at this point. |
| 524 | * Because if you try to disobey him he just uses Dominate to force you to do it anyway. |
| 525 | ** He can try. Certainly earlier in the game he can dominate you but in the last conversation he can't dominate you into giving him the Sarcophagus. At what point do you get too powerful for him to be able to force you? The part when it gets really obvious that he's out to get you when Xiao confesses to framing Nines and then you're sent out to meet with him is right before you go back and he fails to dominate you. Surely after you single-handedly take out the Sabbat and the leader talks about your great increase in power you've reached the point where [=LaCroix=] can't force you anymore. |
| 526 | *** It could be what saves the PC from being dominated in the end isn't their power, but their will (in the tabletop game, dominate rolls against willpower). Up until the endgame, the PC has just been reluctantly following orders. Before their final encounter, however, the PC talks to the cabbie, who forces him to decide on his path. Therefore, their will in the final encounter is stronger than in any previous encounters, allowing the PC to resist. |
| 527 | * In a way, you ''do'' get to not blindly follow [=LaCroix=] after Xiao's confession. Sure, you still go offer the alliance to Nines all the same. But while doing so, you're perfectly able to admit to him that you ''don't'' trust [=LaCroix=], that you're not sure if he really ''should'' agree to the alliance. |
| 528 | [[/folder]] |
| 529 | |
| 530 | [[folder:I hate you vampire dad!]] |
| 531 | Why is Sire loyalty such a big and expected thing even in the case of the PC who barely knew their Sire and certainly didn't ask for it and the Nosferatu who were forcibly turned and often hate how they've turned out? |
| 532 | * Centuries of tradition. Same reason many human cultures expect kids to respect and obey their parents even if those parents are abusive/neglectful. |
| 533 | ** Plus all kindred (except those who took the unbondable merit) have at least a level one blood bond to their sires from the moment of their embrace, ensuring that there are some very strong feelings connecting them. Might not always be positive, but most kindred simply can't be disloyal to their sires until the bond works off, and will always carry around the memories of the bond. |
| 534 | [[/folder]] |
| 535 | |
| 536 | [[folder:Andrei comes back from the dead, again]] |
| 537 | Why did you have to kill Andrei twice? |
| 538 | * Because he runs away the first time once you get his health to around 1/4th. |
| 539 | [[/folder]] |
| 540 | |
| 541 | [[folder:Patty the ghoul is CRAZY]] |
| 542 | Why do people care what Patty says? Surely they'd assume she's either insane, seeking attention, or drunk? |
| 543 | * Maybe, but as far as the Camarilla is concerned it's too great a security risk. "Better safe than sorry" protected Kindred well thus far, and one slip-up, one leak could cascade out of control and bring them entire Masquerade down. And then the Inquisitions start anew, and the Camarilla remembers the last one well. Protect the Masquerade, no exceptions. |
| 544 | * Skelter answers this directly: It's not the average person they're worried about, it's vampire hunters. Vampire hunters already ''know'' vampires exist, so obviously they're not about to assume some girl in a bar blabbing about her domiter to whoever will listen is just drunk. She could end up blowing up the Downtown Anarchs entire spot and getting The Last Round raided because of her big mouth. Secrecy is likely VERY important to the Downtown Anarchs; they don't have Issac's or the Camarilla's money to afford tens of human guards, so during the day they're completely vulnerable to anyone who can find a way in. |
| 545 | [[/folder]] |
| 546 | |
| 547 | [[folder:Ghoul Blood Bond]] |
| 548 | If after three separate feedings on three separate nights a Ghoul becomes obsessively in love with the one who's blood they are drinking, why do kindred tend to keep their Ghouls on a "leash" by only feeding them the bare needed for them to survive each month? If it was simply to preserve blood for their own use why is it considered keeping them on a "leash?" And if Ghouls become obsessively in love with them why do they need to be kept on this "leash?" |
| 549 | * Blood Bonds can fade over time. Better safe than sorry. |
| 550 | * People (and other things) obsessively in love are not what you'd call rational. And the Blood Bond is no mere "love", either - it's much more pervasive and insidious than that. Patty is obsessively in love with her domitor and isn't kept in check - now she's a threat to everyone, for example. By keeping ghouls crave their fix, it means you can be extra sure you can control them. A blood bonded indivdual can easily go out and do something really bad which the domitor didn't intend to. Also, as a side note, not feeding the ghouls too often, ensures they don't get too much power to wield around. If mortals are fed Vitae, they can use some supernatural powers - not a lot, but enough to get noticed as "not quite mortal". Furthermore, if they _don't_ spend the blood and start getting too much of it in their system, they start being prone to frenzy (though not as powerful as a Kindred one). Though those aren't the primary reason for wanting to keep them on a leash. |
| 551 | [[/folder]] |
| 552 | |
| 553 | [[folder:Protagonist Power pt.2]] |
| 554 | Your sire: I have been playing this game about once a year, and last year I saw the theory of Cain after I have completed the game. I have been hand waiving a lot in this game about how strong you become in the two weeks the story takes place in, as the game is just a game. The Cain theory fits, in my opinion. In WOD, you can choose to accept it or not and both would be correct. That being said. The place the execution happens, almost all key players are present and witness the death of your supposed sire. Through out the game you are reminded that you are becoming stronger faster than you should be and out rightly surprise a few people including [=LaCroix=]. These key members that take note that your blood shouldn't be as strong as it is, would most likely have done a background check on the person who was executed and came up with no explanation. No one ever comes out and says it, but they are quite confused on this very fact. It also stands to reason that after this story takes place that you are still becoming stronger to who knows what generation you truly are. The implication is that your sire truly wasn't the one executed. If the one executed was your sire, I am sure they would of picked up on near what generation he was and that doesn't fit to the expectations of those putting you to task and often suicidal missions. If you read Jack's dialogue, he knows your true self. |
| 555 | * Since when did everyone get the notion that the events of the game only take 2 weeks or even a couple of nights? It is suggested in the game that at least several months pass between the beginning and the end. There are many subtle hints everywhere, the biggest of them being exactly the thing in question: you can't get that powerful that quickly. Some less subtle ones involve Heather. She tells you she's run out of blood at least twice during the game. Ghouls need to feed once a month. As for your generation, judging by your bloodpool, it's 8th. Typically, it's a generation befitting an elder, your blood is reasonably strong, so with a stretch you could say that a neonate could learn hard to become as powerful over the course of a year. |
| 556 | [[/folder]] |
| 557 | |
| 558 | [[folder:The Jester Prince]] |
| 559 | How exactly did [=LaCroix=] get to be a Prince anyway? I get the Camarilla sent him from the East Coast as a sort of joke/punishment, but why didn't the Anarchs just outright take him down the instant he set foot in the city or tried to establish any kind of control? Heck, the Anarchs outright show up to the meeting at the start of the game, so they apparently still do what he says... sorta? |
| 560 | * It's not really ''just'' [=LaCroix=] there as the sole representative. It's him, his bodyguard turned Sheriff (who is quite formidable) a Chantry of Tremere (again, formidable), as well as any of the other Camarilla vampires (a lot show up towards the end). So, there are lots of Camarilla presence, in general. Then, there is all the deals struck with the "native" Anarchs around there - the Nosferatu[[note]]Even Gary double deals with the Anarchs and ultimately doesn't hold either of the political allegiances as that important, the Cam did enlist him, so he is regarded as an ally[[/note]], the Voerman sisters[[note]]or at least Therese, don't think Jeanette really cares about politics that much to express a preference.[[/note]], as well as any of the other resources the members control and have access to.\ |
| 561 | \ |
| 562 | Again, it's not ''just'' [=LaCroix=] being sent there. It seems like the Camarilla do want to set up shop in LA. They most likely used the Kuei-jin as the perfect opportunity to do so - the Anarchs cannot go to war on two fronts there, in fact, they are way more likely to accept allies against the eastern invaders. And thus the Camarilla swoops in. If the Anarchs "win" and drive out the Kuei-jin, the Camarilla has a some home turn carved away. If the Anarchs are wiped out by the Kuei-jin, then the Camarilla won't be sorry and would still have its home turf. It's pretty much a win-win situation either way. Maybe not a true "win" as there aren't that many scenarios where the Cam just get LA and everybody else scrambles, but in most cases, they'd be left with a base of operations there and the opposing party is going to be weakened.\ |
| 563 | \ |
| 564 | That's all Camarilla in general, but what about [=LaCroix=]? Simple - he is an asset the organisation can afford to lose. If he succeeds in getting LA - great! But if he fails, the official response would be along the lines of "Oh, that's too bad, but [=LaCroix=] was acting against the Camarilla's wishes". You know - they just throw him under the bus and deny involvement. Max seems to always be prepared to step in and take the reigns, in case [=LaCroix=] fails, so ultimately, even if the Prince is not really competent, he is very much ''useful''.\ |
| 565 | \ |
| 566 | Interesting to note that [=LaCroix=] tries to use the player character the same way the Camarilla are using him. |
| 567 | [[/folder]] |
| 568 | |
| 569 | [[folder:Mind-Control Bomber]] |
| 570 | In the final segment of the game, [=LaCroix=] Dominates a security guard to suicide bomb you. This would be fine if it was just a command, but the guard is under [=LaCroix=]'s total control. In actual Vampire, this is a level 10 skill only accessible by Antediluvians, And judging by how easily you take him down in the ending, [=LaCroix=] is no Antediluvian, so how the hell did he use this skill? |
| 571 | * That is incorrect: ''Possession'' is the level 5 Dominate effect in the tabletop game. It allows the vampire to take control of another's body entirely, which is exactly what [=LaCroix=] seemed to be doing. A level 10 Dominate would be of incredible magnitude - mind control a city or all members of your clan, for example. |
| 572 | ** But he even speaks through the guard, and in his own voice. The guard seems to be thinking and acting as [=Lacroix=], which, if you look at the White Wolf wiki page for Dominate, is that exact level 10 skill. |
| 573 | *** No, that power would more or less make a copy of you. Not to mention it's "old" - the level 10 powers listed come from old supplements. At any rate, there is nothing suggesting that's what [=LaCroix=] is doing - at level 5 Dominate, he could simply possess the body of the guard and still accomplish the same effect. Here is a description of Possession from the [=VtM=] rulebook: |
| 574 | [[quoteblock]]*** Possession\ |
| 575 | At this level of Dominate, the force of the Kindred’s psyche is such that it can utterly supplant the mind of a mortal subject. Speaking isn’t required, although the vampire must capture the victim’s gaze. During the psychic struggle, the contestants’ eyes are locked on one another. \ |
| 576 | \ |
| 577 | Once the Kindred crushes the subject’s mind, the vampire moves his own consciousness into the victim’s body and controls it as easily as he uses his own. The mortal falls into a mental fugue while under possession. She is aware of events only in a distorted, dreamlike fashion. In turn, the vampire’s mind focuses entirely on controlling his mortal subject. His immortal body lies in a torpid state, defenseless against any actions made toward it.[[/quoteblock]] |
| 578 | ** As an add on to this when level 10 powers were added back in to the edition Bloodlines is based on it was in the ''Gehenna'' sourcebook and were indeed for Antediluvians (and Caine and possibly Lilith) only. For all Disciplines it was the same power, literally called "Plot Device," ie the Antediluvian can do whatever the storyteller needs it to do for the plot, as long as it's on theme for the Discipline. So level 10 Dominate would still be something to do with mind control but it would be way, way more powerful than this. |
| 579 | [[/folder]] |
| 580 | |
| 581 | [[folder:That's one heavy sarcophagus.]] |
| 582 | Assuming the clan you're playing doesn't have Potence, how did [=LaCroix=] expect you to single-handedly carry that gigantic sarcophagus out of the museum, particularly when he was encouraging you to be stealthy about it? For that matter, how ''did'' you carry it out of the Giovanni mansion single-handed, particularly if you snuck in? |
| 583 | * For how you carried it - there is a truck waiting for you. Presumably the Prince did send a couple of vampires with Potence to give you a hand or something. After all he does *want* the sarcophagus - unlike the previous missions he sends you on, he does care if you fail this one, it makes sense he'd help. Although if you did fail before getting the sarcophagus, perhaps you could be written off and nothing of value (to [=LaCroix=]) would be lost. As for how you snuck the sarcophagus out...I don't think there is a decent explanation. At best, perhaps the Prince called a boone or something from the Giovanni to allow you access to leave but that's a bit of a stretch - after all, he would have been able to do that before. Another option is that he sent his goons who would have "taken care" of the party. Which is also a bit of a stretch. |
| 584 | ** I believe the Prince couldn't have asked the Giovanni to hand him the sarcophagus because he had no real proof of it being in their possession, and they wouldn't allow anyone in their basement, reasonably stating that they are a neutral clan and have a right to hold onto their secrets as long as they don't mess with others' affairs, denying that they know anything about the sarcophagus (which the Nosferatu would undoubtedly do as well - publicly, that is). However, as soon as the protagonist discovers the sarcophagus in their basement (and disposes of the Kuei-Jin brothers who might ruin the plan as well), the Prince has every right to demand the Giovanni to not obstruct its extraction. If you know the clan's history, you will remember that they made a pact with the Camarilla to remain neutral because they were on the brink of destruction after what they'd done to the Cappadocians. They fear to break this truce to this day, and wouldn't openly stand in the way of any sect. |
| 585 | [[/folder]] |
| 586 | [[folder:The Beautiful Toreadore]] |
| 587 | * So, the Toreadore are frequently referred to in-game as "the pretty ones". Does that mean, like the Nosferatu, they change appearance when embraced, except they become more attractive? If so, how does Samantha recognize the Toreadore PC? |
| 588 | ** There's no change of appearance if one becomes a Toreador, it's just that they tend to embrace people who are already gorgeous (though it depends on what the Toreador finds gorgeous) and make efforts to appear proper and dignified. The Toreador PC was simply attractive before the embrace. |
| 589 | ** The in-game description for the Toreador clan refers to them as being 'svelte', a word typically used to refer to someone slender and thin, which the Toreador all are. Considering how bur;y the Brujah are and how ugly the Nosferatu look, it's safe to say every vampire clan has at least ''some'' level of transformation, but a Toreador would only ever get 'prettier' from the process. Assuming the player wasn't totally hideous before it all, a Toreador could still be recognised by someone who knew them well. They might just assume you'd had some work done in your absence. |
| 590 | *** No, from the gamebooks only the Nosferatu change their appearance merely from being embraced. A few clans have physical changes that can or will happen later (Gangrel can take on an animal feature every time they frenzy, Assamites skin turns slowly darker as they age until they look like living obsidian and Tzimisce tend to use Vicissitude to change their appearance by choice) but only the Nos get changed straight away. The stereotypical looks for clans is just personal preference; Toreador usually like pretty people, Bujah tend to admire physical strength etc. Even that is far from universal, there's a bit in the Revised Edition rulebook featuring a Toreador who is apparently so ugly the vampire she's meeting with thinks the Nosferatu look better by comparison. |
| 591 | [[/folder]] |
| 592 | [[folder:Kent Alan Ryan]] |
| 593 | * What exactly ''did'' happen to Kent? In the same conversation, Skelter says both that Patty was told he was dead ''and'' that he's wary of taking care of her himself because he "knows her sire". Is Kent alive or not? If he ditched Patty, why would he care that she was killed for being a masquerade violation? |
| 594 | ** Found the answer to my own headscratcher: He is dead, but no one knows it. His skeleton and driver's license can be found in an optional explorable wing of Grout's mansion. Now, what an Anarch was doing in a labyrinth deep in the Malkavian Primogen's mansion is its own RiddleForTheAges. |
| 595 | ** That was added by a fan patch, so what happened in the original game is still up in the air. They might have lied as an attempt to get rid of her - the context is that the player asks if she's been told he's gone, to which Skelter answers "Man she's been told he was ''dead!''" |
| 596 | [[/folder]] |
| 597 | [[folder:If your sire was well known enough for their siring of you to be discovered, why doesn't anyone know you're a part of the clan you are?]] |
| 598 | [=LaCroix=] speaks quite highly of your sire and of his disappointment that you were, well, sired without permission. Sure, it's probably just lip service, but from what [=LaCroix=] says, he's clearly somewhat familiar with your sire. Given how small the vampire population is, even in cities, everyone should at ''least'' know your sire by sight or name, if nothing else. There's no indication your sire is a visitor. |
| 599 | \ |
| 600 | So why, if you play a Malk, is everyone so damn surprised the second you open your mouth? Sure, Mercurio's not going to know the who's who of the vampire world -- but you'd think a Regent like Strauss or an older Anarch like Jack would be familiar enough with the residents of LA to know your sire is a Malk and therefore, you are one too. Both, however, are visibly surprised. Strauss is polite, but clearly has only just learned you're a Malk, and Jack is so taken aback by it he just about laughs his arse off. |
| 601 | \ |
| 602 | The only person not surprised if you play a Malk is [=LaCroix=] himself. And if he's familiar enough with your Sire to know what you are, why isn't anyone else? |
| 603 | \ |
| 604 | Let's say that [=LaCroix=] has no idea who your Sire is, and does some research between capturing you both and unparalysing you -- how would he, then, have found out about what your sire did? If someone ratted your sire out, that would then mean that ''someone'' knows your sire well enough to know about what was going on, and yet nobody, at all, seems to know said sire well enough to know that they're a Malk to begin with? |
| 605 | ** LA's vampire population isn't ''just'' the people sitting in the courtroom in the opening scene, it's larger than that. There's a lot to indicate there are several others that exist off-screen that you simply don't interact with because they're not important to the plot. When you've got a blood hunt on your head, a bunch of them flock to Santa Monica. The Anarch ending indicates that Nines has a small army, most of which are in the streets fighting the Camarilla at the time. Strauss is the only npc Tremere in the game, but it's implied that there are several others in the chantry that you just don't meet. Mitnick, Imalia and Gary are the only Nossies who show themselves when you're in the warrens, but Gary tells you there are more around who are simply invisible. It's perfectly plausible that people were only vaguely aware of your sire, that they blended into the crowd, and their clan (if not outwardly obvious by their looks) was not really known to anyone. Heck, maybe they were like Therese and purposely hid their clan? [=LaCroix=] knows your sire's clan because he's Prince, and it's a rule within the Camarilla that vampires present themselves to greet the Prince when entering the territory. [=LaCroix=] likely has some basic knowledge about most if not ''all'' Camarilla vamps in the area. |
| 606 | ** As for how [=LaCroix=] knew about you being sired seemingly within a few minutes of it happening? No clue. It's possible that your sire was under surveillance for whatever reason. Really, it could be anything, as the PC's sire is sorely underdeveloped. |
| 607 | [[/folder]] |
| 608 | [[folder:I work for the Camarilla because I'm spying on them]] |
| 609 | So why exactly can't I reveal to Isaac that I am working as a spy for the Anarchs? He expresses disappointment that I'm working full time for the "wrong side"... even though I'm only doing so because Damsel told me to be their spy. Yet for some reason, I have no option to just tell him that. It's not like he's Therese and thus untrustworthy when it comes to anti-Camarilla actions, he's the one offering Nines protection in the Anarch ending and seems to be nearly as much of a figurehead of the sect as Nines himself. So why can't I tell him I'm on his side? Why is the best I can do is say "I have nothing against the Anarchs" when I have literally been actively helping them? For that matter, why has nobody given him the memo that I'm working for them? |
| 610 | * Do the Anarchs strike you as organised? Damsel has asked you to spy but that's her thing, not some decision made by the basically non-existent Anarch hierarchy. Nines and Issac might agree on some (not all ) political philosophy but they don't actually work together until pushed into a corner. As for why you can't tell him he A: probably wouldn't believe you and B: is almost certainly being watched by the Camarilla. |
| 611 | [[/folder]] |
| 612 | [[folder:Just send someone else to help Ash]] |
| 613 | Why doesn't Isaac send anyone to help Ash? The game plays it like he's just being cowardly for not helping Ash, but it's not like he'd have to go himself. He's baron, he's got money, he's got employees (one of which being the goon who sends the Fledgling his way in the first place), he could send someone or multiple someones to help Ash. Yet he refuses to out of misplaced fear that he'd have to personally fight off the hunters or reveal himself to them? It doesn't make any sense, Ash even assumes he sent ''you'', meaning the possibility is very much on the table and inline with his usual tactics. |
| 614 | ** Ash would reject his help, direct or otherwise, and he knows that. |
| 615 | [[/folder]] |
| 616 | [[folder:Odd Disiplines]] |
| 617 | * I find some disiplines choices for some clans odd. |
| 618 | ** The Malkavian: Auspec and Dementation? Makes sense. But how does Obfuscate come in, with The Malkavian being a foreseeing loony? |
| 619 | ** The Toreador: Auspec and Presence? Makes sense. But how does Celery come in, with The Toreador being the artistic and persuasive type? |
| 620 | ** The Ventrue: Dominate and Presence? Makes sense. But how does Fortitude come in, with The Ventrue being the leaders working in the shadows and prefer sending underlings to do their bidding? |
| 621 | * Well, to be frank, it goes back to the original tabletop game, it wasn't really the devs call. But to explain the probable reasoning there; |
| 622 | ** Malkavians are also all about mysteries and secrets, hiding fits in. Obsfuscate is also more that just Invisibility. It also involves shapeshifting, as seen in the Nosferatu intro. Shapeshifting is a good way in screwing with people. |
| 623 | ** Toreador are all about beauty above all else, which is why they trend towards art and seduction. SuperSpeed requires grace, and beyond that, it's simply a big visual spectacle. Both are things very suitable for a clan highly defined by aesthetics. |
| 624 | ** As for Ventrue with fortitude: it's in the name. In-game the use of fortitude is basically a physical defence buff, but in the tabletop game, it defends against ''everything'' including physical blows and social coercion. Ventrue are defined as leaders, it makes sense that they'd be equipped with an ability that would allow them to curb or bypass manipulation. Plus the Ventrue are ''not'' the leaders working in the shadows, at least not to other vampires. There are public leaders. Having a spur-of-the-moment defence against assassins etc is a smart thing for the guy on the throne. |
| 625 | [[/folder]] |
| 626 | [[folder:The existence of vampires ''will'' come out]] |
| 627 | * The Anarchs and the Camarilla does a tremendous job in keeping their existence a secret from mortals. While the game came out before the rise of major social media like Facebook and online mass surveillance, there was still a lot of talk being careful of being recorded. With the eventual rise, it's only a matter of time before one uncareful Nosferatu flegdling, Gangrel with Animalism or one failed feeding attempt too many before it will be made public. That then? |
| 628 | ** Then the eyewitness is discredited or killed, the evidence goes missing, the data is deleted, memories are altered by Dominate etc. Not saying that it's realistic mind you but the position of the Old World Of Darkness is that the vampires have too much power (mundane and magical) and influence to be easily exposed. Also it's not just them; pretty much all the supernatural factions are working to conceal the existence of any magical anything. That said several of the End Times scenarios that closed out the game lines do feature the supernatural being outed. |
| 629 | ** And now that the 5th ed. is out and Bloodlines 2 is on the way, it's confirmed that in the modern age it's impossible to hide the vampires' existence any longer. The Second Inquisition rises, and many meet their Final Death. We'll see how it all plays out in the end, I guess. That said, 5th ed. is quite controversial and contradicts both itself and previous lore at times, so one has to wonder how realistic their scenarios are for [=WoD=]. |
| 630 | ** It's likely even with a lot of evidence, most people could easily be directed to ignore it or think of it as fake with minimum narrative control. If a video of a Nosferatu running around showed up on Youtube right now, people would sooner assume it's a really well done,but fake, horror production than they would throw their hands up and think "Well, I guess everything I thought about reality was a lie and vampires really are among us". Hundreds would "debunk" the video, on principle. WeirdnessCensor and all that. |
| 631 | [[/folder]] |
| 632 | [[folder:"Quality" Blood]] |
| 633 | * In the tutorial, Jack explains that vampires prefer "quality" blood over quantity, and that humans will provide varying levels of nourishment depending on their genetic stock and/or socioeconomic status ("you ever have a [=PhD=], kid? That's good stuff"). In practice, every human provides the same amount of nourishment to the player character ''except'' for vagrants, who provide significantly less. When Ventrues drink a vagrant's blood, there is a random chance that they will vomit it back up, and the status notification refers to the vagrant as a "lowborn human": the term indicates that Ventrues find the blood distasteful specifically because of the vagrant's genetic stock, rather than their current, contingent socioeconomic status. I always found it strange that vagrants provide less nourishment to vampires than wealthy people of good breeding, but the same is not true of sex workers or gang-bangers. While obviously not all vagrants, sex workers or gang-bangers are "lowborn humans", I would have thought they'd be disproportionately likely to meet that description compared to, for instance, a wealthy dude with a fancy watch and a flash car. |
| 634 | ** If I remember correctly, Jack talks about taste, not nourishment. It makes sense that different people taste differently, and later editions play with that idea with the whole emotional resonance absorbed from blood. As for Ventrue, their clan curse is having a preference in blood that gets more and more defined and narrowed over the years, so it's not surprising a fledgling starts with a vague distaste for bums. The fact that homeless guys nourish every protagonist less can be explained by them literally having less bloodpoints in them - after all, a lot of them are sick and malnourished. |
| 635 | ** There's possibly a bit of FridgeBrilliance here as well. Bums have lower blood points than well-off people. They're easy pickings, so there's a good chance that other Kindreds have bitten them recently. |
| 636 | ** Speaking of low-quality blood. If you drain the plague victims in the Brotherhood's hideout, there's a high chance that even your ''Nosferatu'' character will start to puke. |
| 637 | ** Not to mention, we're talking about something based in ''magic''. Jack's comment about a PHD could imply that the way you live your life (the 'quality' of your life) affects the 'quality' of your blood. Sure, sex-workers and gang members aren't exactly high class meals, but they're healthy, reasonably attractive and actually doing some kind of work. It's not humanitarian aid or discovering ancient history, but it's ''something''... as opposed to a homeless person, sitting in the gutter, no home, no job, no hopes, no dreams. |
| 638 | *** To put it another way: a brilliant mind or athlete would be the equivalent of a perfectly cooked steak, high class but hard to get in a hurry. A hooker would be the equivalent of a greasy fastfood hamburger full of sauces and cheese, fast and reliable but not the best option available. A hobo would be the equivalent of an out-of-date can of tuna, not good at all and probably doing more harm than good. |
| 639 | [[/folder]] |
| 640 | [[folder:Old stomping grounds?]] |
| 641 | Okay, so... the player is a vampire, newly created, having to leave their old world behind and start anew. Granted, we don't know where exactly the player is from... but considering the tutorial and opening cutscene apparently take place in Downtown (according to the wiki), it's safe to say they're from somewhere in LA... so why ''keep'' the Fledgling in LA? If the Masquerade is so important, why are the Camarilla so okay with letting the player hang around a place they used to live? As we see in the Hollywood sections, the player actually gets recognised by someone they used to know, which causes a Masquerade violation if they're allowed to go free. So the point is: if the Masquerade is so universally important that innocents have to ''die'' to protect it, why didn't the Camarilla move the Fledgling to another state, or even another country? I guarantee the chances of someone you know finding you on the other side of the world is ''very'' unlikely. |
| 642 | * Also, I know there's a very solid theory that Lacroix was intending to indirectly kill the Fledgling before very long, but it still doesn't make sense why he'd let the Fledgling be such a risk until that time. Overconfidence is one thing, but Lacroix is clearly an intelligent character, and everything listed here just makes him seem overconfident to the point of being painfully stupid, which he definitely isn't. |
| 643 | * Vampires rarely travel. Yes, sticking around in your home city is a risk (at least for the first few decades until everyone who knew you well is dead) but most vampires do it. Now this is usually because a Camarilla vampire is kept under their sire's wing for a while and the sire isn't going to want to move from their powerbase. In that case the responsibility lies with the sire to keep the fledgling from going anywhere they'd be recognised. That doesn't track with the PC of course but that culture does mean moving a vampire around to other cities is just not something Kindred do very often. Another factor is that the Princes of other cities generally don't want new vampires they didn't get a chance to carefully vet before Embrace being dumped in their territory. As to Lacroix he sends you to Santa Monica, outside of Los Angeles proper, to die fighting the Sabbat, really quite safe, Masquerade wise. When you come back he can hardly publicly reward success with exile and in any case he's on the Ankaran trail by then and is focused on that. The minor risk that you'll run into someone you know (and it is minor, there's well over three and half million people in the city) is not worth losing an agent that is both useful and expendable. |
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