Follow TV Tropes

Following

Context Headscratchers / ThePrincessAndTheFrog

Go To

1[[foldercontrol]]
2[[folder: Why would a princess need money?]]
3* Why does Naveen offer Tiana money if he thinks she's a princess? Tiana obviously would not need money if she were a rich princess. And it can't be possible that Naveen thinks that Tiana is a princess with no money because later on he asks why she has a job if she is a princess.
4** He might've thought she was in the same boat as him, her parents cut her off to teach her a lesson or something. Or maybe he thought she was a princess of a smaller kingdom (One where he wouldn't be expected to recognize the monarchy) and that the country in general needed money. The fact that Naveen even tells Tiana that the jokes on her, he has no money at least implies he never intended to pay her back regardless.
5** It was also not uncommon for royals to marry for economic reasons.
6** Strictly speaking, he also never said that his reward to her would be monetary in nature. He might've thought that he could gift her with something that she wouldn't be able to obtain on her own.
7[[/folder]]
8
9[[folder: Facilier doing magic on himself]]
10* Don't you think the loa could have made things much easier for themselves by allowing Facilier to cast magic for himself. Are they just romantics, hatching such a convoluted plot? [[Film/AustinPowers Dr.Evil]] would approve.
11** That's actually semi-based on real voodoo beliefs about loa.
12** That's also on the assumption that the loa want what Facilier thinks they want. What if, on the other hand, what they really want is Facilier's soul?
13** Loa aka spirits are believed to be attracted to what is most similar to them and easiest to possess / [[WesternAnimation/DannyPhantom Over Shadow]] in order to work ritual magic -- in this case he certainly has an army of selfish spirits following him around because some spirits require payment each summoning and others require it BEFORE even thinking about them.
14** The ''real'' reason is originally they were going to have Facilier be the one transformed, but then realized they would be wasting Keith David's voice acting talent if he spent most of the movie transformed. So they gave him a reason to stay as himself, which doubled as a {{Handwave}} for why he didn't just magic himself up some money to begin with.
15*** Actually, that explanation doesn't work, because Lawrence's voice stays the same when he's impersonating Naveen -- why wouldn't Facilier's?
16** Another explanation was that they wanted to avoid the implications of a dark-skinned person marrying a light-skinned person by impersonating someone else.
17** That's assuming the loa ''can'' allow Facilier to cast on himself. More likely, this is just a rule of voodoo, for whatever reason (metaphysical laws, spirit politics, etc).
18** Even leaving aside the real-world belief systems playing in, why would the Friends allow Facilier to cast on himself if he'd already proven himself reticent to actually shoulder the consequences of his actions? Seems like an excellent way to give someone what they need to screw you over.
19[[/folder]]
20
21[[folder: Un-recognition]]
22* Naveen goes through the city playing the guitar at the end of 'Down in New Orleans' and tries to flirt with Tiana, who dismisses him. They interact about 5-10 seconds, clearly enough to remember each other's faces and still Naveen mistakes her as a princess in Charlotte's party despite that she still has her hair bound and nothing that would cover her face. Yeah sure, he's probably met (and slept with) hundreds of women, but seriously, you can't forget her face that easily, given that she is a dark-skinned woman in a city, which is still mainly inhabited by white people.
23** It's kind of the sign that, without all they went through, Tiana and Naveen would never have gotten together. It kind of subverts the idea of fairy tales that you are 'destined' to be with your 'one true love'. It furthers the whole point of the movie that WHAT YOU DO ACTUALLY MATTERS.
24*** It's actually a very welcome subversion of the old Disney pattern of "love at first sight" in so many of their other Princess movies.
25** She was just some pretty girl on the street at the time, who he played the ukelele to for about five seconds while partying, and who was dressed very differently from the next time he'd see her. It is actually extremely rare for people to *not* forget random faces that quickly if something particularly memorable doesn't happen.
26** Well, there ''were'' several other dark-skinned people in the street at the time, including one of the girls who was [[{{Squee}} squee-ing]] over Naveen when he got off the boat, so... I'm not really sure if skin tone alone would give him reason to remember her. Plus, given how Tiana clearly wasn't interested in him, it wouldn't surprise me if Naveen just brushed it off and forgot about her. Maybe if she'd actually ''spoken'', Naveen would have had a bit more reason to recognize her.
27** Human memory is funny that way, it's easy to forget a face that you only see for five seconds, and didn't really care about when you first see them. Case in point, the first time I saw this movie, I didn't even notice that part where Naveen briefly meets Tiana.
28** In addition to the deconstruction angle, the brief encounter shows that for all his philandering ways, Naveen isn't so shallow as to continually harass a woman when she shows she isn't interested in him, which keeps him sympathetic to the audience.
29[[/folder]]
30
31[[folder: Back through the swamp]]
32* So did Tiana have to hike back through the swamp wearing that enormous ballgown?
33** She wouldn't care.
34** It was a magic lily pad wedding gown, so maybe it had magical properties to stay clean after hiking through the swamp.
35** Perhaps Mama Odie was kind enough to give them some sort of a magical lift back to town.
36*** Odie's a bit more "hands off" then that. Plus she'd probably be amused by the whole thing. Lets hope that dress was magically light-weight and non-absorbent!
37** [[http://schellibie.deviantart.com/art/TPATF-Just-Married-147072909 here's what it may be like]]
38** WordOfGod says they ride Louis home.
39[[/folder]]
40
41[[folder: Eudora's reaction]]
42* And what was Eudora's reaction when her daughter who'd been missing for three days came through the door wearing an enormous sparkly dress (that's probably drenched with swamp mud, per above), along with her new husband and alligator buddy?
43** "Now I'll live to see my grandkids!"?
44*** First thing I thought of was Louis shouting "GRAMMA!" and jumping in Eudora's arms. "I want cookies and sweaters and stories about what it was like in the old days!"
45** Hey, the people at the mardi gras parade didn't realize he was an alligator until he growled.
46** Forget Eudora, how would NAVEEN'S parents react? They cut their son off, send him to the states, expecting him to either make something of himself or marry some filthy rich girl...and he comes back three days later with no job and some chick without a penny to her name. Um, okay?
47*** Hey now, she had like ten coffee tins full of pennies! The value of the USD was smaller than today, anyway. Plus, once they got a chance to know her I'm sure they'd see how great Tiana is, and I'm thinking they'd be more concerned about the whole "Voodoo Frog" story.
48*** There's also the fact that falling for Tiana cured Naveen of his reckless layabout womanizing lazy party boy ways, so they probably approved on the face of that alone!
49*** Oh, of course. But still, as a first reaction, I mean...how would YOU react? Also, I think they might question his sanity if he told them the frog story. Then again, with Tiana, Charlotte, and an alligator buddy to back him up, maybe not so much.
50*** The reason his parents sent him away in the first place was for him to quit being a spoiled brat and learn the importance of work. Tiana is the reason he became a better person, so I'm pretty sure his parents would not only like her, but be grateful. Plus Naveen was now the co-owner of a five stars restaurant.
51*** Also, now he's not sleeping around all over the globe.
52*** It's never explained whether or not they actually intended for him to marry a rich girl or not - although Facilier does seem to know ''everything'' about you just by looking at you, so maybe that's right. And anyways...I'm sure they initially thought "...huh?" until they met her and saw that the couple was in love, and that she essentially taught Naveen to grow up, or that Naveen seemed to have made her less of a StopHavingFunGuy.
53*** I have a feeling that Naveen's parents cut him off because he was a spoiled, inept, UpperClassTwit, like Literature/BertieWooster. (I can't be the only one who sees the resemblance?) They probably assumed it was the steady flow of cash that kept him that way, and the best thing they could do for him is let him go off on his own. To learn about the real world and grow up already, and that marrying rich was just ''his'' plan for getting around giving up his "high" lifestyle. But introducing his parents to the new him, and the woman who was responsible for his newfound maturity? They must've been very happy.
54*** Tiana might have been working class and poor when they married, but the two of them got up a ''very'' successful restaurant not long after which certainly provided them with a steady living. Naveen's parents were most likely pleased that he just was able to settle down with one girl who was very nice and had common sense and a work ethic rather than him philandering and not doing anything useful. Plus, I got the impression that the "get a job or marry a rich girl" thing was what Naveen saw as his only options. His parents probably cut him off and were like "okay, you can't rely on our wealth anymore, go off and make your own way in the world". However he managed that would probably be fine with them.
55*** This is pretty much summed up by the scene where Naveen's parents actually appear and see Tiana, where their facial expressions are best summed up as "Oh, thank ''God'' he found a good one". I am convinced that the animators have seen that sentiment in real life.
56[[/folder]]
57
58[[folder: Animal talk]]
59* Only animals can understand each other, appearing to talk like humans (Stella calling out to Tiana). Okay, then why does Tiana understand Naveen when she first sees him as a frog? And how does Louis understand the musicians on the steamboat while sneaking them both back to civilization!? And how does Charlette understand Naveen later on?! And how do the frog hunters hear Tiana's line, "We also talk!" And how...
60** In the book the movie was based on, ''The Frog Princess'', animals ''can'' understand human language; they just can't speak them. (Louis understanding the band members.) The only exception is animals who are actually transformed people, who can speak to humans freely. (Naveen speaking to Tiana and Lottie, Tiana speaking to the frog hunters.)
61[[/folder]]
62
63[[folder: The heir and the spare]]
64* So is Naveen the heir to the Maldonian throne? Because...that's kind of scary. Maybe the royals of Maldonia are more ceremonial, but I hope his brother is a bit more into studying up on the responsibilities.
65** He'll prove himself capable and responsible when he becomes a wonderful co-manager of the restaurant (and it's clear that his wife's got brains enough for two.) His parents will give him a few years at least earning his keep, and by then he'll have a lot more self-control.
66*** Besides, if they don't want him on the throne, he has a brother!
67** Naveen actually has smarts. He just preferred a life of pleasure-seeking and didn't really bother employing them until he ''had'' to. Compare his reaction to being turned into a frog vs. others of people turned into things in stories. He convinced Lawrence to loosen the lid on the jar so he could escape, then hopped all the way to the [=LaBouff=] mansion in search of help. He was familiar with the storybook and willing to try it. And when that failed, he was willing to deal with being a frog until they could find a way out.
68** I'm sure he's intelligent, I'm just wondering if he's studying up on Political Science and Government while he's waiting tables in New Orleans.
69** ^ That's where Tiana comes in. I'm pretty sure his TheCasanova attitude was one of the reasons his parents decided to force his hand; they wanted him to settle down with a practical, down-to-Earth woman who could keep him on his toes.
70*** If Maldonia works like most other monarchies in the world, he ''can't'' be heir to the throne-- he married a commoner after all. If he wanted to eventually be the king, he would have had to marry nobility, which, in America, would be considered someone with money (e.g. Charlotte). So, at least in my mind, as soon as he married Tiana, he's no longer eligible for the throne.
71*** Keyword being if - for all we know, he could be eligible, but he wouldn't have taken the chance (and given the responsibility to his brother). Tiana actually could have been made the "Queen consort" - in other words, just the king's wife; not really any power over the state of Maldonia.
72*** And with that logic, you just [[LogicBomb completely undid the resolution of the film,]] namely the entire "Once I marry you you are a princess" deal. Congratulations.
73*** That's not true, just because Naveen can't be King doesn't mean he is no longer a Prince. If Naveen became King, his brother would still be known as a Prince, right? If Naveen is ineligible for the throne, that doesn't change the blood in his veins. He's still a Prince, so Tiana's still a princess.
74*** Besides, what magic will accept may not be what the law will accept. That might be at least one reason why they got another marriage in a church ''after'' the marriage in the swamp that enabled the kiss to undo the spell.
75*** Another explanation: Maldonia allows for voluntary abdication -- When Naveen married Tiana, she became a princess. However, he might have abdicated his position as heir to the throne when they met up with his parents. Considering his CharacterDevelopment, he wouldn't want to deprive his new wife of her life's dream just so he could go be King.
76*** However, if you go by what Monaco allowed with Princess Grace Kelley being able to marry into the royal line and bear heirs then Maldonia could very work like that as well. Not every monarchy works like England, ya know.
77*** England doesn't work like that, ya know. Not in recent years anyway. Heck, there's isn't an "English" monarchy in the first place, ya know, it's a British one. If the monarchy works like the modern British one, then there's no reason he can't be King and married to a commoner. Prince William is most likely to be King one day, and his most likely Queen will be a commoner.
78*** If Princess of Mardi Gras for Charlotte counted as a princess, marrying a commoner couldn't undo Naveen's blood title of Prince.
79*** Six words: [[ScrewTheRulesIMakeThem Screw the rules they make them]]
80*** Exactly. People have to stop thinking of this "cannot marry a commoner and inherit the throne" thing as some unbreakable rule. Just look at real world history. Rules of succession vary with each individual monarchy, and change over time. Basically the rules of succession is ''whatever the reigning monarch wants them to be''. He/She can follow tradition, ''if he/she wants''. He/she can break tradition, ''if he/she wants.'' And the next monarch can change the rules back, or to something else entirely, ''if he/she wants''. Monarchs have ''adopted commoners and named them their heirs.'' Assuming Naveen was ever the heir to the throne (and the fact that he was cut off by his parents suggests he ''wasn't'', because you generally don't do that to the heir. An heir in Naveen's position with similar questions about responsibility hanging over him usually gets appointed to an important but tightly supervised position in the government or army where he would be forced to learn responsibility) his marriage to Tiana will not be a problem with respect to this so long as Naveen's parents like her. Also note that Naveen's father and mother may not necessarily be King and Queen of Maldonia. The son of a prince (or princess) is ''also'' a prince. So Naveen's father might be a prince, and or his mother might be a princess, and neither might be directly in line for the throne, either.
81*** The newspaper at the beginning of the film identifies Naveen's parents as the king and queen of Maldonia.
82** It's possible Naveen has an older sibling.
83*** And also possible that the royals of Maldonia are powerless figureheads, so who cares whether they're politically-savvy or not?
84** What is this question even asking? Naveen at the end of the film is a very different person than Naveen at the beginning of the film. Either he's expected to take the throne once his parents die, in which case he and Tiana will move to Maldonia and rule, or he'll choose to abdicate the throne to his little brother if they don't want to leave the States, or he was already disinherited of the throne and it'll go to his little brother anyway. The way it's phrased here, this topic seems like a complete non-issue.
85[[/folder]]
86
87[[folder: Charlotte transforming]]
88* Correct me if I missed something, but...why didn't Charlotte change into a frog when she kissed Naveen after midnight? When Tiana, who wasn't a princess, tried it, the curse extended to her. Since Charlotte was no longer a princess during the kiss, shouldn't she have turned into a frog as well?
89** The movie doesn't explain this directly; the most commonly accepted theory is that once the talisman was destroyed and Facilier was taken by his Friends, they stopped the spell from being able to jump around anymore, while also keeping it in effect over Tiana and Naveen. Another is that Naveen's proposition to Tiana to convince her to kiss him ("Do this simple thing for me and I'll give you money") was so similar to what Facilier had done to Naveen to facilitate the spell that it caused its effects to be replicated. Whereas Charlotte explicitly agreed to kiss Naveen with no strings attached.
90[[/folder]]
91
92[[folder: The obvious solution]]
93* [[JustEatGilligan Just Give Tiana The Money]]: Charlotte and Tiana are best friends right? And Charlotte is ''very'' rich right? So why didn't she just give Tiana the money she needed so she can buy the restaurant in the first place?
94** My guess would be that Tiana was too proud to accept a genuine handout, what with her "work hard for what you want" ethic instilled by her dearly beloved and dearly departed daddy... and even [[TheDitz ditzy]] Charlotte knew that. Because she had no problem accepting the rain of cash to actually cook "those man catchin' beignets" for Charlotte's party.
95** But she had no problem kissing a frog in exchange for his (non-existent) money, and I believe he helped her out with the money after they married, anyway. Of course, if she had just accepted money from Charlotte, then the story would have ended pretty quickly.
96*** When the opportunity to kiss Naveen came up, Tiana was absolutely desperate after having just been told her dream was about to be ruined. She would've taken any opportunity for money at that point.
97*** If she changed Naveen back into a human by kissing him, a monetary reward would be perfectly reasonable, not a free handout.
98** I interpreted that it was a combination of Tiana's work ethic (not asking for a handout) and Charlotte's naivete (not realizing her best friend needed help). Saw it as FridgeBrilliance.
99*** In that case, why couldn't Charlotte offer the money as a ''loan'' to be paid back over time? If not the whole thing, then at least whatever Tiana hadn't saved up by then. That way Tiana would get her restaurant without resorting to handouts.
100*** When Tiana learned she couldn't buy the property (during the party), Charlotte wasn't aware of any problems, and Tiana was too emotionally devastated to think straight (hence her willingness to do something as completely ludicrous as kissing a frog). Maybe Tiana would've thought of the loan idea if she had gotten some time to think straight.
101*** That one's about right. When Charlotte is talking to Tiana right before Naveen makes his intro, she mentions that ''both'' of them are getting their dreams that night. Tiana didn't tell her about being refused because of either pride or not wanting to upset Charlotte on her big night.
102** Charlotte herself isn't rich, her ''father'' is. Tiana's mother may have always made it a point of pride not to ask her employer for money she hadn't earned. So Tiana wouldn't ask her friend for money she'd know was really coming from Big Daddy.
103** For what it's worth, I doubt Lottie ''or'' Big Daddy would've been willing to loan Tiana the money if she told them the whole story. On the contrary, I'm picturing Big Daddy marching down to the realtor's office and paying the money himself, if not just coercing them into it on account on him being the richest guy in town. As mentioned above, though, Tiana's too into hard work to think of asking them to do that for her. (At least until the end of the film.)
104[[/folder]]
105
106[[folder: The other bidder]]
107* Who bought the old Sugar Mill out from under Tiana? This is never addressed in the film, who would buy a run-down sugar mill in cash, and why?
108** I just assumed the white business owners in the area pooled a fund to purchase the property in order to keep her out. Not an uncommon occurrence in the thirties where black entrepreneurial efforts were concerned.
109** Or they were just lying to her. They were the ones in charge of the thing and given the time period, few people would side with Tiana if that were the case. That would also explain why they gave it to her so quickly at the end, without the "other buyer" complaining.
110*** Neither of these make sense - it is established that Tiana is a beloved member of the community, there was no outright racial hatred (it's Disney), and if the land owners didn't want to sell to her, they wouldn't have had to make up an excuse, and just not offer it to her at all. Reject her the first time she came with an offer.
111*** No evidence of her being a "beloved member of the community". She was just a waitress at a restaurant that nobody else cared about. She had a handful of friends, but as for being a "beloved member of the community", not really.
112*** Exactly, there was no ''outright'' racial hatred so Disney chose to be more subtle about it. It was actually more cruel to turn her down the way they did. And they might as well let Tiana get her hopes up if she's going to clean the place up for free. Anyways, the "woman of your background" line and Tiana's reaction to it were clearly supposed to imply some sort of racial prejudice.
113** This troper assumed that the bankers only said they'd had another offer as an excuse to jack up the price, and had left Tiana to fret about it overnight, intending to offer her a high-interest loan the next day to make up the difference. But when she turned up at their office with an upper-class husband and an alligator for backup, they chickened out about ripping her off.
114** I find it hard to believe that the realtors were lying about another buyer in order to raise the price - when she met with them at the party, you could see that one of them was clearly hesitant to break the news to her, and why would he be hesitant if it was something they'd made up in the first place. Granted, he did make that comment about her 'background', but that isn't much of a basis for accusing them of trying to squeeze more money out of her. Maybe the other buyer was trying to keep her from purchasing the building, but I don't think it's really fair to jump to the conclusion that they were involved.
115*** It's not really a jump, they're MovingTheGoalposts on her and then using the "background" excuse to discourage her from trying again. You can tell they're lying about the other buyer because they don't actually tell her until ''after'' she raises the money. If there really had been another buyer, they would have had to notify any other bidders that the property was no longer for sale, and the building is still for sale when Tiana comes back with Naveen, Louis, and the exact same amount of money she offered the first time.
116*** What I imagine may have happened is someone else came in after finding out Tiana was going to buy the building and managed to convince the brothers to accept his higher bid under the pretense of, "She's a black woman, she's not entitled like I am, and she'll never make it in a big business like that." Hence why one of them was hesitant to break the news while still being rude about it, and the other was more to-the-point and only cared about the money.
117*** It's also possible the hesitation was just good acting on the realtor's part and the other bidder was indeed made up. They either intended to hope she'd borrow from them or the [=LaBouffs=] would add the difference.
118*** There probably was no other bidder, just other white men objecting to the sale. Perhaps they were even simply made aware of threats against her that they didn't want to tell her about, and the alligator convinced them that she was unlikely to be scared out of town. At any rate, all that needed to happen was that they were doing what society of the time expected them to do, but they knew it was wrong, hence their hesitation.
119** Alternatively, maybe ''Big Daddy'' was the other bidder all along. Seeing how hard her daughter was working and being good friends with the [=LaBouffs=] already, Eudora may've reached out to Eli and asked if he could help Tiana out with a donation of some sort; being Big Daddy, he went down to the realtor's office and offered to pay the entire thing in cash. The Fenner brothers, greedy, racist jerkwads that they are, took his offer as a completely separate bid to try and get more money out of Tiana, without telling her who made the other bid. They either didn't know she was friends with Big Daddy or were attempting to take advantage of it.
120[[/folder]]
121
122[[folder: Shadows]]
123* So...is Facilier's shadow one of his Friends on the Other Side, or was it just magicked by them to be sentient? I mean, when Facilier got dragged down to where-ever, his shadow went with him. And yet it's almost exactly like the other shadow demons!
124** I had a theory about that in the WMG for the movie. The "Friends on the Other Side" animated his shadow as part of whatever deal he made with them that caused his debt to them. It could had been a side-effect, an actual term for the deal on either side, or they did it to keep a constant watch on him.
125** I'm guessing the latter. While the FOTOS and Facilier are more like business partners, Facilier's shadow was genuinely friendly toward him.
126** Also, When the FOTOS come to take Facilier away, it seemed just as frightened as him, even cowering behind him at one point. Surprising as I was expecting the shadow to turn on him and throw him into the mouth, considering that it should have been supplied to him by the FOTOS
127** Idea: perhaps, a la TabletopGame/UnknownArmies, shadows are the souls of the human damned. Facilier selling his soul for magic power gave his shadow autonomy. While he's alive, it's cooperative and friendly. Afterward...
128** One interview with Keith David mentioned how the shadow reflects what Facilier is really feeling (such as the transformation into a snake during his song)...maybe his shadow isn't alive so much as it's another part of him.
129*** His shadow is his daemon then?
130*** A familiar rather.
131** Facilier's shadow was freaking out just as much as Facilier was. And another shadow demon's hand grabbed onto the ''shadow''[='=]s leg and drug it down. It wasn't at all the shadow turning on Facilier as it was they were both connected to each other. When one got drug down, the other did as well.
132[[/folder]]
133
134[[folder: Friend MIA]]
135* So Lottie didn't notice Tia was missing for three days? I'm just assuming Eudora had a reaction off camera and Buford's restaurant went to ruin without their best waitress around. Also, I'm glad no one had Charlotte committed when she came home with this story about talking frogs and the butler impersonating Naveen. She was already a little off to begin, I would have just figured she'd gone insane after being dumped at the altar.
136** I figure she was too busy planning the wedding. Anyone else, this would seem callous, but Lottie...I get the feeling she can't fit too much in her noggin at any given time, you know?
137*** Also, regarding Buford's: if I remember the time line right, Tiana and Naveen vanished on a Friday night. Maybe she didn't work over the weekend? Of course, this IS Tiana we're talking about...
138*** According to a deleted scene on the DVD, Tiana quit her job at Buford's after Charlotte paid her.
139*** I think it's assumed she quit anyway, seeing as she ran out of the restaurant in the middle of her shift as soon as she got the money
140** Historically speaking, the parade would have been segregated during the time period so Tiana wouldn't have been allowed to come, though I don't think the Disney people were thinking much about that.
141** But think about their relationship for a moment. They've been best friends for as long as either could remember, they see each other constantly, and they're still very close. Lottie didn't want to tell Tiana she was getting married? Or ask her to be the Maid of Honor?
142** I figured they didn't see each other that often because they were in different social circles.
143** There is that, but also one must consider, REALLY, how often DID Lottie see Tiana? Tiana's other friends in the movie noted "All you ever do is work." It could be argued that Charlotte would have to go see Tiana, while she's working-just so Lottie can see her! Tiana was quite the workaholic. Sure Tiana did say she was getting her restaurant, but for all Lottie's [[TheDitz scatter-brain]] could know, considering it's IN CHARACTER for her best friend, to be too busy fixing up her new restaurant to visit-Tiana is work first, work-second, [[RuleOfThree work-third]], THEN relax and chat later. And why wouldn't Lottie expect that out of her? In her head, they both had finally achieved their dream, she didn't know those jerks totally ripped Tiana's dream out from right under her. So Charlotte probably just shrugged it off, thinking Tiana would be able to see the wedding at the Mardi Gras, because she's too busy probably fixing up her dream restaurant. So she just moved forward with her wedding plans. Bear in mind, she's kind of a ditz too, she's not selfish on purpose, she's just oblivious and naive to everything else going on around her. The real question is, what on earth did Eudora do with her daughter missing?! Judging from the fact that Tiana showed at the beginning of the movie doesn't live in some other house-the house she grew up in...I mean, Eudora is a good mommy, so she would be BOUND TO NOTICE her daughter is missing from the getgo!
144*** [[WildMassGuessing Maybe]] Eudora kept herself from the thoughts of despair and grief by telling herself that Tiana met her Prince Charming that night at the LaBouffs party, and they ran off to go elope and get started on those Grandkids.
145** They may have been best friends, but even best friends won't see each other every single day, especially when both of those friends were very busy (one was planning a wedding, and the other either waitressing or fixing up her restaurant). Even my friends, if one of them went missing for three days, I probably wouldn't notice. Also, keep in mind this was before the invention of telephones, so it's not like Lottie could just call Tiana, she would have to physically go and look for her. The only place we know that Lottie knows about is the places she works at, and all she would gather is that Tiana quit, and assume it's because of money. If anything, Lottie might be pissed off at Tiana for apparently ditching her at the party (to go streaking apparently, since both sets of clothes would be left in the bedroom) and making no effort to contact her after knowing that her big day had come. Note, we know that Tiana knows where Lottie lives, but there's no evidence of Lottie knowing where Tiana lives.
146[[/folder]]
147
148[[folder: Arrested for what?]]
149* They arrested Lawrence? On what grounds? What charge could they possibly have for him?
150** Identity theft, fraud, and ''possibly'' attempted murder.
151*** How? By turning into an exact copy of a much taller, thinner man? What's he going to say, AWizardDidIt?
152*** It would not have been 'identity theft' as that's a modern crime; it would probably have been something like 'impersonating a foreign dignitary'.
153*** In this case, that seems like a perfectly legitimate excuse. It seemed like Facilier's doings were common knowledge in the town.
154*** Which leads to something that bugs [[Tropers/{{ptitletlypxope}} me]]; if his wrongdoings were common knowledge, why didn't someone arrest Facilier before the events of the movie? If it's because the authorities were too afraid of him, shouldn't they have been afraid of incurring Facilier's wrath by arresting Lawrence (they had no way of knowing Facilier was dead at that point, so far as we know)? And speaking of things they could or couldn't have known, how did they know about Lawrence's dealings with Facilier to impersonate Naveen?
155** I was thinking he was arrested on the grounds that the daughter of the richest guy in town wanted him arrested.
156*** Well, it WAS the 1920s...
157*** To say nothing of Big Daddy wanting Lawrence's hide for putting one over on his little Lottie.
158** The writers wanted to avert the KarmaHoudini.
159** Big Daddy caught a strange British dude in "Naveen's" outfit, hiding exactly where "Naveen" ran off to, who referred to Charlotte as "my dearest" and apparently spilled some of what happened (he was screaming about how it was all Dr. Facilier's idea when he was being arrested). Big Daddy probably just assumed that Lawrence somehow pulled a ''very'' elaborate disguise off to trick Charlotte into marrying him and swindling her (which really wouldn't have been too far off), so he had Lawrence arrested.
160*** Tiana knows who the Shadow Man is and seems to have a fairly good idea of what a ''bad thing'' it is to be messing with him, and nobody seems to be surprised by the idea of voodoo magic being able to do the kind of things it does in the movie. While there's probably no ''specific'' law about getting involved with voodoo people, Dr. Facilier is ''probably'' well known enough in the area that Lawrence's story spoke for itself.
161** This troper assumes it was a combination of Lawrence being the only human in the church that "Prince Naveen" ran into, knowledge of Facilier, and when we see them arresting Lawrence, Naveen has had a chance to explain the situation and is at the part where he needs Lottie to kiss him to reverse the spell. They probably aren't worried about incurring Facilier's wrath because they probably figured that if he hasn't intervened yet, he's not going to and possibly because Facilier can't seem to do a whole lot (voodoo wise) to just anyone. The worst he does is send the shadows to capture Naveen, who he has already put under his influence when Naveen accepted the deal back in his shop. When he's dealing with Tiana, he resorts to illusions and words to try and convince her to hand over the talisman.
162** I don't know if he was officially arrested, but there's plenty of probable cause for the authorities to bring him in for questioning. As mentioned, he was the only person in the building everyone last saw Naveen darting into, dressed in the same clothing Naveen was wearing, with the same voice Naveen had been using. They can figure out exactly ''what'' they're supposed to charge him with later, but that's more than enough evidence to suggest Lawrence was up to something.
163** About the why Dr. Facilier was never arrested I got the sense that while he definitely had a nasty reputation and was whispered about, he never did anything that could specifically be called a crime at least not one that could be linked to him by normal means. Also it seemed that he usually targeted tourists like Naveen because the citizens of New Orleans knew all about the “shadow man”.
164*** most likely they had nothing to charge him with after all he (1) targeted tourists, (2) used exact wording in his deals “you asked me for help to grow back your hair you never told me how much!”, (3) charged his targets way lower than what most scammers even back then would’ve charged for his services, and (4) generally kept his antics on the low key to avoid attracting unwanted attention. The only reason he went big this time was that his debts to his “Friends” coming due and even then he did it in a way that even if stuff hit the fan he had a means to weasel his way out of trouble as it would technically be his word vs a greedy tourist/identity thief and as there’s no actual physical proof that he assisted in the scheme everyone would just assume Lawrence is just blaming Facilier because of his race instead of accepting responsibility for his actions.
165** Along with all that's been said, as Lawrence was being loaded up, Charlotte was only a few places away, sitting and talking to the real Naveen with no one questioning why she was conversing with a frog. It's not the smallest thing to swallow, but them having listened to Naveen's story before deciding to arrest his butler is a possibility, and consistent with Lawrence proclaiming his innocence and pinning the blame on Facilier. And if Facilier's dealings and the scope of his powers are known enough for Tiana to have heard of him, then a story of "He turned this foreign prince into a frog and then had his butler impersonate him to try and steal Big Daddy's fortune" isn't likely to sound so far-fetched as to be unbelievable.
166[[/folder]]
167
168[[folder: It's not slime, it's ''mucus''...which is slime.]]
169* Secreting mucus ''is'' slime.
170** It's the principle of the thing.
171** And insects don't have butts, they have abdomens.
172*** I don't think Ray's taken any biology/anatomy courses, I don't see why he would know the proper name for it.
173** Humans "using the restroom" ''is''-- yeah. Perhaps as a frog, one is more sensitive to the negative stigma of being a frog, leading to a more PC way of saying "slime?"
174** Yeah, but slime has a more varied meaning than just mucus in popular usage. When people think of 'slime', they think of slimy things, like moss, seaweed, snot, oysters, and so forth even though it's not technically 'slime'. Thus, Naveen's clarification of the more ''precise'' meaning.
175** Actually, there's an important distinction: slime ''isn't sticky''. Slimy describes something as being thick, wet, and slippery, but mucus is defined by its sticky, kinda nasty all around texture. It's a semantic difference up until Tiana puts the knowledge to work for her.
176*** The line would be clearer as "I have news for you Shadow Man… It's not ''slime'', it's ''mucus''. And you know what ?… MUCUS STICKS !"[grabs the amulet with her tongue]
177[[/folder]]
178
179[[folder: Running for office]]
180* If Facilier really wanted to rule all of New Orleans, why didn't he just run for an electoral office? Yeah, because of his ethnicity this would not be possible in 1920's, but with his "Friends" on the other side and his voodoo magic, he is more than capable of controlling the city this way. Also, why focus on just New Orleans? Why not the entire United States (or the world)?
181** Facilier specifically says he can't use voodoo to benefit himself (at least directly); being able to pass as the sort of person who could run for office in 1920s Louisiana would almost certainly fall under that criteria. As for the second part...well, I'm not entirely convinced he ''wouldn't'' eventually set his sights on the country, or the world. He would either never be fully satisfied with the power he had, and/or keep racking up debts with the FOTOS that needed to be paid with more innocent souls.
182** Yes. Baby steps. We can't all rush straight for world domination.
183*** He seemed to be more interested in money than power at the beginning (his animosity towards Big Daddy appeared to stem mostly from the fact that BD had huge amounts of cash to throw around while Facilier worked for coins). He only was interested in taking control of New Orleans so that he could let the FOTOS have free rein.
184[[/folder]]
185
186[[folder: Facilier's plan: How does one thing lead to another?]]
187* Facilier's plan was as thus - get Lawrence to marry Charlotte, then kill Big Daddy so Lawrence would inherit the fortune, and they could split the money, gaining major control over the city. Okay, fine. Next, offer the souls of everyone living there to the demons. Wait what? Lets ignore the implications of this and look at one simple thing - how? How would having influence in the city mean Facilier could offer peoples souls any time he wanted moreso than he could do when the movie started? But beyond that, his Friends could easily drag him screaming and crying to his death at the end, so why didn't they do that to the towns inhabitants instead of dealing with someone who was clearly pissing them off? Either there was another stage to Facilier's plan that he wasn't telling us, or his Friends don't have any understanding of how people function.
188** It could be some subtle magical permission thing. Like, the FOTOS were able to drag Facilier off because he owed them a debt and was unable to pay, thus they had some form of power/custody over him. But it could be that they were just unable to kidnap random people on their own. So if Facilier is basically running the town, he has power of it and thus could theoretically have the authority to tell the FOTOS "have at whoever you want".
189** ...but they just as easily dragged Naveen away 3 separate times.
190** Naveen was turned into a frog via the magic the FOTOS gave Facilier. This would have given them power over Naveen by proxy they wouldn't have over others. As to why/how Facilier could give the FOTOS all the wayward souls, I got the impression that for all the power the FOTOS displayed, they could not enter the mortal world completely on their own--they required Facilier, or somebody, to use summoning magic/open a gateway or something. Because we never see them active save for when Facilier is around or has already dispatched them on missions. So, assuming he got power over New Orleans, this would enable him to, oh I don't know, call a gathering of townsfolk to City Hall for some sort of "special announcement" (perhaps a lucrative new deal that would give everyone in New Orleans [[BeCarefulWhatYouWishFor "exactly what they want"?]])...then as soon as they'd all shown up, he opens a gate for the FOTOS, [[NightmareFuel and...]]
191** Big Daddy probably owned half the mortgages in New Orleans. If Facilier receives those documents from Lawrence, then everyone who owes Big Daddy would be in debt to Facilier, which may be all it takes to render them vulnerable to his Friends.
192** I subconsciously assumed the Friends are under something like 'vampire rules'. That is, they can drag Facilier off ''because'' he specifically was in default on his supernatural debts. Similarly, they can't just start sucking souls out of random citizens unless they're ''invited'' to... similar to the way vampires (in certain mythos) can freely enter a private dwelling when - and only when - they're invited.
193** OR, the FOTOS only wanted FACILIER's soul all the time. They tricked him by saying "We'll help you to get the control of the city and then you'll give us the souls of the citizens… Okay ?" while they KNEW it was impossible. Then Facilier would grow a gigantic debt to the Friends to reach the control of New Orléans… And there: "Oh we're sorry, but what you're planning to do to pay us back is impossible. ARE-YOU-REAAA-DY ?". I think you see the picture.
194** It looks like the way to make a deal with the FOTOS or one of their clients (like Facilier) is to shake hands with him, regardless of whether the handshaking is ''willing'' or not. And you know, mayors and other politicians have this habit of going around [[FridgeHorror to shake electors' hands…]]
195** I read that as being a lot more mundane and indirect than some of the above. With control of Big Daddy's fortune and businesses, Dr. Facilier would suddenly have a lot of political and social influence, which he could then use to advance the loas' agenda. He could mandate increasingly draconian management policies to make Big Daddy's workers desperate and angry, subtly foster race-hatred and class-hatred to push people into looking for curses, promote the casual use and popularity of dark loa symbology so that people would make contact with them without taking proper precautions, all kinds of things that would push people into the arms of the FOTOS.
196[[/folder]]
197
198[[folder: Why so sad, Tia?]]
199* Why did Tiana get so upset about seeing Lawrence-as-Naveen marrying Charlotte? She already knew there was an imposter running around.
200** The movie never tells us that Tiana is aware of the Naveen imposter -- and in fact, Naveen is actually surprised to discover that Lawrence is working with Facilier, so even ''he'' might not have known. His response to Tiana asking who Lottie was dancing with at the party could be interpreted as him having been transformed while Charlotte was getting Tiana her new dress.
201[[/folder]]
202
203[[folder: 24-hour technicality]]
204* "There's no way I'm kissing a frog and eating a bug on the same day." -- didn't she kiss that frog the day ''before''?
205** Maybe within-24-hours; I-haven't-slept-it-off-yet kind of day?
206*** They slept in the hollow tree after the alligators attacked. They met Louis at midday.
207*** She maybe didn't dare to sleep with him in the same room.
208*** She's probably too [[{{Squick}} grossed out]] to really care about how much time has passed, while yeah, she's exaggerating, but I always assumed it was just her being too grossed out from her previous squick-that the idea of another squick, that she didn't really think about the amount of time it's been? That or just a goof....?
209*** Or even with them shaving slept, it could still technically be within 24 hours?
210[[/folder]]
211
212[[folder: Stranger danger]]
213* Dr. Facilier pulled Prince Naveen and Lawrence into an alley. I know it was broad daylight, but couldn't they have seen something bad coming?
214** Well, Lawrence knew something was up from the start, but Naveen is oblivious to the point of hilarity. He's totally enjoying "Friends On the Other Side" as much as the audience up to the point with the snakes, and even then he's just mildly bewildered until there's actual blood involved.
215** I got the sense from the movie that Naveen is a [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation bit]] of a CloudCuckoolander or at least crazy laid back.
216** Then add in the fact that Naveen had already been goofing around with some street performers prior to this, and he probably assumed the whole thing was just some kind of magic show typical to New Orleans or something until everything goes down the way it does.
217[[/folder]]
218
219[[folder: Eyes in a jar]]
220* So Mama Odie is blind and her eyes are always covered...is it possible that those eyeballs we see in the jar are ''her'' eyes? They were with some teeth or dentures, and I'm pretty sure she doesn't have those either.
221** There's concept art of Mama Odie pulling the eyes from the jar and putting them in her head, so I assume so. I don't think she'd be sinister enough to take someone else's eyes.
222** The eyes track Tiana when she's talking, and the dentures smile at her when she notices. Its pretty firmly hinted that they are either her natural eyes, or eyes she can use in such a way, and they remain aware while in the jar
223*** Wait, what? Whoa.
224** In addition to being Mama Odie's eyes, they may also have been a minor shout-out to the source material, of sorts - when Emma and Eadric are captured and taken to the witch's cottage at the edge of the swamp in ''The Frog Princess'', one of the things she notices is a jar of eyeballs in which all of them stare at her constantly no matter what she's doing. They are brought up again with greater significance in a later book.
225[[/folder]]
226
227[[folder: More animal talk]]
228* If it was the frog-curse that let Naveen and Tiana talk with people, and if they could only talk to animals as animals (evidenced by Tiana speaking with Charlotte's dog for the first time), then how did Louie, a totally ordinary 'gator, speak with the human jazz players at Mardis Gras?
229** Did he actually speak to them, though? I just remember him nodding his head.
230*** Actually, what happened was that the jazz players thought it was a costume and asked him if he played, to which he responded by playing a few notes. They asked him if he wanted to come along, and he nodded. Presumably they just thought that he was shy and/or the costume made it hard to talk for him and thus accepted him as part of the band simply based on pure talent alone.
231** Facilier's curse only changed Tiana and Naveen's outward appearances, they could still talk because they knew how. Stella could only 'talk' because they could understand her all of a sudden?
232*** Whatever it is that made Naveen and Tiana able to understand Stella is probably the same thing that allowed them to understand the gators, and the fireflies, and the spoonbills.
233*** Then what lets Mama Odie talk to Ray, Louis, her snake and the Spoonbills?
234*** She's a voodoo priestess?
235*** Okay, fine. Then how could Charlotte understand Louis when he came barging through holding Ray's limp body? Shouldn't she have screamed cause an Alligator was running at her?
236** She just had the whole story explained to her. Her best friend had been turned into a frog. She may not have understood Louis specifically, but she understood something sad was happening.
237*** Also, the camera kind of goes away from Lottie once Louis runs up to Naveen and Tiana, and it kind of looks like they're several feet away from her, at least. She definitely could've had some kind of reaction, but it was just off-camera and we didn't see it.
238[[/folder]]
239
240[[folder: Kiss time limit]]
241* I understood that by becoming a princess through marriage, Naveen and Tiana were able transform back with a kiss, but wasn't the time limit on the kiss the reason why they couldn't transform back earlier when Charlotte offered to kiss Naveen? Shouldn't they have lost their chance to transform back at that point?
242** I'm pretty sure this was addressed earlier on this page. The time limit was because ''Charlotte'' would no longer be a princess after midnight. It was specifically tied to her ability to change them back, not their ability to do so at all.
243[[/folder]]
244
245[[folder: Lawrence]]
246* So Lawrence was bullied into going with Facilier's plot... because he was tired of being pushed around? Did he decide it was time to be someone ''else's'' doormat for a change?
247** He wasn't bullied into initially accepting. Facilier wasn't precisely nice to him in 'Friends on the Other Side', no, but the actual offer was straight up 'Work with me and you'll get back at this jerk and get money and respect.' It was only after Naveen escaped that Facilier really started bullying Lawrence into going along.
248** Not to mention, when Lawrence had Naveen's appearance, he would be handsome, fit, have people fawning all over him, and especially the undivided attention of a beautiful, rich, and charming belle. To have that kind of life, he wouldn't mind handing over the "thinking" work to someone else.
249** Lawrence ''wanted'' money and power. What he ''needed'' was respect. Which do you think Facilier would give him?
250** The movie is also meant to deconstruct various older Disney tropes and clichés, one of which is the beleaguered, stuffy, butler/assistant-type character (examples of which include Grimsby, Sebastian, Cogsworth, and Zazu) who sticks with their master despite how many times they're abused or mistreated. Lawrence is that archetype played more realistically, so it makes sense that he'd take the first opportunity presented to turn on Naveen.
251[[/folder]]
252
253[[folder: Fourth date marriage]]
254* I know, I know, it's a Disney movie - but proposing to a girl only a day after you met her? Isn't that a bit quick, even by Disney standards? And exactly how much time passed between the engagement and the wedding? It couldn't have been that long, considering that the leasers didn't even have time to officially sell the building yet.
255** ''Isn't that a bit quick, even by Disney standards?'' [[Film/{{Enchanted}} "And you are..." "Giselle." "We shall be married in the morning!"]] Nope.
256** [[FourthDateMarriage That's ''long'' for Disney standards.]] It was more like 2-3 days, and they'd been together the entire 24 hours of every day. That's longer than Snow White, Cinderella, Aurora, Ariel and Jasmine knew their men before they decided they wanted to get married. As for the leased building, a lot of people don't think the Fenners even had another buyer; they were just racist.
257** As for the date between the engagement and wedding, it bugs me to no end. Did they get married as frogs the day of Ray's funeral? As in, Ash Wednesday (bad idea)? Did they get married as humans on Easter Sunday (great idea)? But that contradicts the order of events in the Happily Ever After montage! I just assume that the Happily Ever After montage is out of exact chronological order.
258** Easter Sunday is 40 days after Ash Wednesday, so I doubt it, and I've never heard of either a superstition or a taboo against getting married on Ash Wednesday.
259*** There's certainly no real way of knowing when they had their church wedding. Who knows how much planning went into it?
260** Yeah, but it's a kind of sad and somber day dedicated to reflection. Which is fine for Ray's funeral; not the best day for someone's wedding.
261** At least in Catholicism marring during Lent is usually discouraged (not quite a taboo anymore, but still frowned upon) Ash Wedesday is the first day of Lent. I do know its taboo to marry on Good Friday, but I doubt the waited that long so it's irrelevant.
262*** It's taboo to marry during the Pascal Triduum, which begins the evening of Holy Thursday and continues until Sunday Evening. Then again, the one performing the ceremony ain't Catholic, so she may not bind herself to that.
263** It's possible that they spent a few days mourning for Ray before they got married. It's not exactly easy to bounce back from a friend's death and go straight into a wedding or anything.
264** Ray's funeral was at night and their marriage seemed to be late in the day so they weren't one right after the other and they had time to mourn him. Even if they got married the next day, I kind of view it as something Ray would have wanted since he seemed happy Naveen and Tiana got together. Besides, Tiana and Naveen aren't being like Yzma in Emperor's New Groove in that they weren't being malicious by trying to upstage his funeral or forgetting about him. They probably wanted to be together and knew Ray would want them to be happy.
265** Exactly, this wasn't like Bambi with the MoodWhiplash of the pwetty birds singing "tra-la-la-la" right AFTER the death of Bambi's mother. They were all mourning the death of Ray...the scene then gradually goes to a new light, shining in the sky, everyone looks up in bewilderment-then gasp-then cheer in joy seeing a new star born next to "Evangaline" , Ray's spirit lives on in the sky, so he'll always be watching over the family-and he gets to be with his love at last, that thought ALONE, probably convinced Naveen and Tiana that Ray wouldn't want them to be mourning his death, and that Ray would want them to be happy, at the earliest-it probably would of been that following day they wed-but who is to say a few days didn't pass by either? Either way...the emotion transitioned. It went from sad, to bewildered, to shocked, to smiles-THEN CHEERS AND SHOUTS of joy, Ray got his happy ending-they know it and are overjoyed for their late friend, as Naveen and Tiana hug each other, they can move on now this tragic event-and then after that joyous discovery in the sky-THEN it switches to their wedding. Sounds like a pretty good transition to me?-the music alone in those scenes made me [[TearJerker tear up]], then pause for a moment to figure out what's going on-to hairs standing up on the back of my neck (the good kind, not the scared kind)-to me now tearing up with happy tears-to then literally GUSHING at seeing them finally get married. Sure it may have seemed fast when you look at it through real world eyes, but in all honesty-I never had time to think about it, my emotions were pulled along for the ride-[[SugarWiki/MomentOfAwesome and I]] [[NightmareFuel embraced]] [[SugarWiki/FunnyMoments every]] [[NarmCharm stinkin]] [[TearJerker moment]] [[SugarWiki/HeartwarmingMoments of it]]!
266** Remember also that this really was a different time, that "Great Generation" of men and women who had lived through the Civil War and WWI and were about to live through WWII. Laying a friend to rest one day and marrying the next was what you did. This was back when a family would lose a child and immediately try to have another one. Life and death. For better or for worse, or perhaps a little of both, they didn't respond to a tragedy by going to a psychologist for the next few years. They picked up and they went on.
267[[/folder]]
268
269[[folder: The fragile talisman]]
270* What exactly is that talisman made of that shatters easily enough when thrown down by a ''frog'' from a height of, what, ''three inches''? I would think something like that would be a bit more sturdy. It's like the object version of SquishyWizard.
271** Part of the reason it broke so easily is because Tiana didn't ''throw'' it down, she '''smashed''' it. It was also mentioned earlier that she has a strong arm, allegedly.
272** Clay. Depending on quality and how properly you bake it it can be notoriously brittle. It's also very popular for making effigies and talismans in various folk traditions due to abundance and ease of working with.
273[[/folder]]
274
275[[folder: Renovating the mill]]
276* So the sugar mill was a plain white building, but at the end it's red brick. It's hard to tell in the movie because it's dark, but there's other art that shows it more clearly. So did Tiana and Naveen have to build all that up around the outside or could they remove the white paint or something? Did they have to put in all those windows themselves and do all the wiring for the thousands of lights?
277** Well, there's an indeterminate amount of time between them buying the mill and the final scene. Perhaps they got the building functional, then ran the restaurant long enough to earn enough money to do the final renovation?
278*** Many brick buildings, especially in the South, are painted or whitewashed. This protects the brick from the elements (brick is not indestructible). A lot of people, when renovating a brick building that has been painted (especially if they are short on money), will remove the paint to find sound brick underneath.
279[[/folder]]
280
281[[folder: Even more animal talk]]
282* In "Dig A Little Deeper" Is Mama Odie able to understand the flamingo's singing? And if that's the case, how? She understood Ray and Louis as well. Can Facilier understand them too? Can all Voodoo priests understand animals?
283** In the book ''The Frog Princess'', it's said that magic practitioners are the only humans who can understand the speech of animals, outside of humans who've taken animal forms. This rule probably extends to Facilier and Mama Odie in the movie's universe.
284[[/folder]]
285
286[[folder: Anachronistic sunglasses]]
287* Mama Odie has shades before they were invented. Shades weren't available for sale to the public until 1929, and even then, early on they were only sold in Atlantic City, NJ.
288** She could have made them herself.
289*** Yeah, she could've gotten some regular glasses and dipped into some black paint. It's not she has to ''see'' through them.
290** Variants on sunglasses have been around since the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunglasses 12th century.]] Just because they weren't being mass produced and marketed is no reason why should couldn't have a pair.
291[[/folder]]
292
293[[folder: Voodoo and self-conjuration]]
294* Dr. Facilier says that he cannot conjure a thing for himself. Is this something from Voodoo or Voudoun mythology, or is it just a small plot-element that may often be used in some magic stories.
295** Plot element. The original plan, apparently, was to have Facilier disguise himself as Naveen, but the director's were so impressed with Keith David's voice work that they felt it was a shame to keep him disguised the whole time. So, they invented Lawrence and introduced the "can't conjure a thing for myself" excuse.
296*** Also a bit of FridgeBrilliance there. Not only did it excuse Facilier from masquerading as Naveen, it also explained why Facilier didn't just conquer up a whole lot of money in the first place.
297*** But Lawrence as Fake!Naveen had his own voice, so Facilier would too.
298** It was better to have an ugly white guy do the impersonating, because a black guy disguised as an AmbiguouslyBrown guy seducing a blonde, white girl for nefarious purposes would have set off [[WhereDaWhiteWomenAt even more cries of]] UnfortunateImplications.
299[[/folder]]
300
301[[folder: The magical disappearing cane!]]
302* Where did Facilier's cane go during the big graveyard scene? He's pinning Tiana down with it, then Tiana grabs the talisman, and then... it just vanishes.
303** He tossed it aside when he went for the talisman shards. More interesting question is where did he get it from ''before'' he pinned Tiana. During the chase he didn't have it.
304*** I recall the scene where the Doctor makes a deal with his FOTOS to hunt down Naveen. During that scene, he very quickly pulls it from his sleeve.
305** But it already vanished even before Tiana shattered the talisman. When the scene went back to her, now holding the talisman in her hands, she's still lying on her back like before, but the cane isn't there anymore.
306*** He's a voodoo doctor. He owns [[AWizardDidIt a magic disappearing cane]] that conveniently shows up to threaten frogs and disappears when he's being dragged into the underworld by evil spirits. Problem solved.
307*** I'm asking this because it seemed an important factor in the shattering of the talisman. Had Facilier CONTINUED to pin down Tiana, she wouldn't have been able to get up and slam it against the ground, no?
308*** She might have. The talisman seemed to shatter rather easily, so she might have been able to twist her hand and crush it against the ground while she was pinned.
309*** I studied that scene a bit because I noticed the same thing. When he's taunting her, he shifts his position so that he's more casually leaning on it with one hand, rather loosely. Then, when she snags the talisman, he's caught completely by surprise and his arm shifts to his left (cane's off-screen at this moment). It doesn't take too much to assume that, in his surprise, he lost his 'grip' on the cane and it fell over, freeing her enough to shatter the talisman. The cane's disappearance past that point is easier to shrug off.
310[[/folder]]
311
312[[folder: Squishes and smells]]
313* After Facilier [[spoiler: stepped on Ray]] he pinched his nose for a moment. Why? Do [[spoiler: squashed fireflies]] stink so badly and strongly?
314** Fireflies actually do have a distinct, pungent smell that becomes more noticeable when they're [[spoiler:squashed.]] But I think it was more of a gesture that he was collecting himself, brushing the bridge of his nose and adjusting his coat, putting himself back in control of the situation.
315[[/folder]]
316
317[[folder: Unlawful titles]]
318* The U.S. has laws against having titles that aren't earned ("Doctor" is allowed, but "King" isn't as it was just inherited). Because Tiana is an American citizen, she can't technically be a Princess.
319** It's not that you can't hold a title that isn't earned; it's that the U.S. government can't ''bestow'' an unearned title on anyone -- by knighting them, or proclaiming them "lord" or "king", as examples. Tiana's title comes from Maldonia, not America -- she wouldn't stop being a princess in the same way that Naveen was still a prince when he came to the country.
320[[/folder]]
321
322[[folder: Princesses prefer pink...but blue is a close second]]
323* Why would Charlotte have a dress that a.) wasn't pink and b.) was in Tiana's size?
324** Presumably she goes to functions where she isn't the center of attention, and thus needs something more appropriate. The dress is lovely but understated, at least for Lottie's wardrobe. As for their size, Lottie may have a few more curves, but not so much that it would be impossible for Tiana to wear her clothes. Or, alternatively, it was an older dress and Lottie's gained weight in the intervening time.
325** Lottie's the same size as Tiana. Her build's a bit different and she wears too many things that billow her up like a balloon, but the size is negligible. Having one dress that's not princess perfect does not really mean anything when she probably has hundreds of dresses, each of which is tailor-made.
326** In a deleted scene on the DVD, we see Eudora sewing that dress Lottie wears at her Masquerade Ball. And who is she using as a model for that dress? Her daughter, Tiana....obviously, the answer to your question, Tiana and Lottie are the same size. Just cause Lottie wears balloon dresses doesn't mean they aren't, I should think it would be obvious that Tiana can fit into said clothes.
327** Maybe being the SpoiledSweet she is, have her dad pay Tiana's mom to make a dress for ''her''? Or Tiana's mom practiced on ''her''?
328** As for the color, Charlotte's probably attended the weddings of other high-society girls, and been warned ''not'' to wear pink when it would clash with the decor.
329** I don't see anything questionable about Lottie having a dress or even a selection of dresses that are other colors than pink; the film's opening shows that she has princess dolls wearing dresses of many different colors, so she probably had Eudora make ''her'' dresses in imitation of theirs.
330[[/folder]]
331
332[[folder: Light and shadow]]
333* How were the shadow demons able to survive Ray and Odie's light attacks? When exposed to intense light, they burn. How did they survive and regroup?
334** Maybe it doesn't actually kill them, but just temporarily disrupts their Earthly forms, forcing them to return to the Other Side.
335** Who ever said that the few that got blasted ''did'' survive?
336** It's safe to say the shadows Mama Odie disintegrated don't exist anywhere except in memories. The shadows Ray attacks get big "cigarette burns", which the shadows could recover from after Facilier stopped Ray from relentlessly attacking them till they were completely destroyed. The long-haired female shadow Ray burned in the chest is in the chase after Tiana with no burn.
337[[/folder]]
338
339[[folder: The stock market crash]]
340* This film was set in the early 1920's, right? What will happen to Tiana's restaurant when the market crashes in 1929? I know she'd have the better part of a decade to create a strong restaurant, but even strong businessses can fail in a depression.
341** That's when her habit of hoarding money in coffee tins instead of banks really comes in handy.
342** Also, she IS married to a prince, whose parents are extremely wealthy. They cut him off because he was a lazy, womanizing, useless leech, but now that he's the co-owner of a popular restaurant, there's no reason why his parents wouldn't help out a bit when times got tough.
343[[/folder]]
344
345[[folder: Even MORE animal talk]]
346* Why didn't Facilier take away Naveen's ability to talk? Even if he escaped, he surely wouldn't have been able to get any help from nearby Princesses.
347** Maybe he didn't know how. As some people have noted, Facilier seemed to be more flash than substance. Taking away his voice might have been a trick he didn't know.
348** Or he left Naveen his voice so he and Lawrence could question him about things only he would know. Lawrence presumably wouldn't know ''everything'' about his boss's personal life, and it's possible that the two of them had plans to take over ''Maldonia'' after conquering New Orleans, meaning they'd need to sustain their impersonation for years.
349** Facilier's ability to work his magic has certain strings attached. He would've needed to make another deal with Naveen in order to take his voice away, or factor the clause into the terms for the original transformation. And he couldn't be expected to cover for every setback that could have come up -- he probably didn't want to waste any magic on taking away Naveen's voice when he never expected for him to escape in the first place.
350[[/folder]]
351
352[[folder: Semi-all-knowledgeable voodoo powers]]
353* How come Facilier (apparently) needs a newspaper to find out more about Naveen, but somehow knows EXACTLY what Tiana wants in life? [[spoiler: Right up to mimicking her imagine spot to an uncanny fashion?]]
354** The conspicuously placed newspaper might have just been to throw them off and make him seem more harmless. It's also possible that he just used some sort of "Show her her wildest dreams" spell on Tiana, with him having no idea what would actually appear.
355** It also seems to just be common knowledge that Tiana is saving up. Everyone Tiana works with seems well aware of Tiana's goals.
356** There's a bit of FridgeBrilliance there. You know that scene where Tiana was working in the cafe and finally gets enough money for her restaurant? Doctor Facilier happened to be there, stalking Big Daddy.
357[[/folder]]
358
359[[folder: Alligator anachronisms]]
360* Why does Louis mention wanting to eat Bananas Foster, when they weren't invented until 1951?
361** It was probably just a mistake on the part of the writing staff. (It happens...)
362** TheGenieKnowsJackNicholson?
363*** I think it's more like a case of AnachronismStew than anything.
364[[/folder]]
365
366[[folder: If you try once and fail, stop trying]]
367* Tiana and Naveen kind of give up on reversing the transformation pretty easily - sure, Charlotte's not a "princess" anymore, but if that sort of thing qualifies, there should be tons of other opportunities. They're still talking frogs. Why not have Naveen's dad call up King George and try to explain the situation?
368** Well it wasn't actually said that they ''did'' give up. They just said that they were going to be together and get married. It's possible that after marrying and getting things settled, they would have gone on to try to find a new princess to solve the issue.
369** Just getting in touch with Naveen’s parents for help would be difficult and potentially very dangerous for a pair of frogs. Naveen would have to go in person to explain everything, which would require finding a boat to take them to Maldonia, surviving the trip, and then explaining everything to his parents without being turned out or squashed on the spot. Big Daddy implies that it’s a given for him to be voted king of the Mardi Gras parade every year, since it’s happened for the last five in a row. It’s possible that Tiana and Naveen had just decided to wait for Charlotte to become a princess again next year.
370[[/folder]]
371
372[[folder: Toothed frogs]]
373* Why is Naveen the only frog in the movie with teeth? Tiana didn't get any once she transformed by accident.
374** Because his smile is the defining part of his character design.
375** Naveen's frog form was deliberately designed to be an African species of frog that have teeth.
376*** There's frogs that [[NightmareFuel have teeth!?]]
377*** ''Most'' frogs have teeth. Just not very big or strong ones.
378[[/folder]]
379
380[[folder: Unexplained magic spotlight]]
381* When "Naveen" (really Lawrence) is announced, Charlotte fixes her mascara, applies a fake beauty spot, lobs glitter over herself, '''and a follow-spot lights from opposite the stairway she is up'''. My question is - where was the scaffolding for that follow-spot in the later shot with Tiana on left of frame and the Fenners on the right? Unless the angles were chosen to suggest they were shooting around the scaffold?
382** She's Big DaddysGirl. If she wants a spotlight, there is a spotlight on her. If they had to tear down the entire building and rebuild it with that in mind, he would make it so.
383[[/folder]]
384
385[[folder: Friends rent control]]
386* Tiana's family is meant to be fairly poor right? In that case, why is their house so large? Their kitchen is absolutely massive and Tiana's bedroom looks more like a master bedroom than the kind of bedroom you'd give a small child.
387** Well, they ARE fairly poor, but keep in mind that Tiana's mother was frequently commissioned by the wealthiest guy in town. Plus, Tiana's father did work triple shifts. Maybe they bought the house in an attempt to give Tiana everything they never had, and worked themselves to the limit so they could afford it.
388** Don't know about the bedroom, but maybe the kitchen only looks so big because Tiana's a little girl and everything look's bigger when you're a half-pint.
389** If they were living outside of the city itself, then it wouldn't be much of a stretch for them to be living in a house that size. A lot of the area outside of New Orleans wasn't very well developed even as of the 60's when my dad was growing up (They grew food and raised chickens in their back yard, about a 20 minute drive from the French Quater).
390** Possibly when they acquired the house, Tiana's parents hadn't expected her to be an only child. Cram two or three little sisters in that room, and it'd be pretty cramped.
391** Ehh, rewatching the film, the kitchen and bedroom don't seem to be as large as you've indicated. The kitchen has a table where Eudora does her sewing, so it could be an all-in-one kitchen/dining/living room combo, in which case, it's actually rather small, on top of being cluttered. The rest of the house could be split up between a small bathroom and two bedrooms, and Tiana's parents gave her the larger of them.
392** I’d like to know where you got the idea that they’re all that poor. It’s not an unreasonable assumption, but the family’s specific financial situation is never clarified in the movie, and even after James passes away, they’re able to remain in the same house with no mention that they struggle to get by. (Tiana is able to keep a drawer full of money stashed away for her restaurant, with no consideration for its potential use toward other prospects.) They may not have a lot of extra money floating around, but there’s nothing saying they can’t have a moderately-sized small house.
393[[/folder]]
394
395[[folder: Doctor Octopus]]
396* That guy dressed up as an octopus as the masquerade ball. How was he controlling all eight arms?
397** He invoked the ancient RuleOfFunny.
398** He was a mutant born with multiple arms and he can only go out for costume parties.
399** Or maybe he went to Facilier and asked to be able to drink as much as 8 men. Facilier, JerkassGenie that he is, granted the request by giving him 8 arms, and either the guy jumped at the opportunity to hide his disfigurement by going to a costume party, or he is just dressing up to fit the theme and doesn't even care what he looks like.
400[[/folder]]
401
402[[folder: It's a voodoo hayacall!]]
403* What was it that Ray called the talisman? A "hayacall?" Since we're dealing with Lousiana Voodoo, I thought it was called a gris-gris.
404** My understanding is that "heyacall" is another term for gris-gris.
405** I looked 'Hayacall' up. It's the Cajun term for an unknown object or creature. Ray calls the talisman it because he doesn't know what it is.
406*** Hayacall isn't a word; it's shorthand for "How you call", sort of a Cajun equivalent to "whatchamacallit". He was basically calling it a [[{{Pun}} voodoohickey.]]
407[[/folder]]
408
409[[folder: Tiana's workplace]]
410* Why was Tiana working at such low down places? Nothing against it, it looked nice, but it wasn't exactly the high class restaurant where you'd have big tippers. Yeah, Big Daddy showed up, but that was mainly because of Tiana's food, not the cooks. She's an amazing waitress and a brilliant cook, so why wouldn't a better restaurant hire her?
411** She's a black woman in the 1920s DeepSouth. Raw talent can only get you so far...
412*** Far enough to get you the most successful restaurant in New Orleans if you open up as manager and head chef. The customers didn't mind at all, but the other restaurant owners did?
413*** Her restaurant not only has her talent as a selling point, but it's also owned by the Prince and Princess of Maldonia, not to mention an alligator that plays the trumpet, and the possibility to see/meet the King and Queen of Maldonia. It would also have the financial support of the richest family in the city, but that's beside the point.
414** Not denying that her race wouldn't be an issue, but we only saw her working her morning/day job, whereas most high-end restaurants typically open later in the afternoon. And I doubt Big Daddy would visit that restaurant with such regularity just because Tiana worked there.
415[[/folder]]
416
417[[folder: More semi-all-knowledgeable voodoo powers]]
418* How did Facilier know who, or what, the other frog was? He never saw her transform, and he shouldn't have noticed her being gone, so for all he knew, that was just a regular frog. How'd he know she was a human, and then how'd he know she was Tiana?
419** [[AWizardDidIt A witch-doctor did it]]
420** The same way he and Mama Odie knew who Tiana's father was?
421** He could have realized the second frog was a human when she was making a fuss about being a frog as she and Naveen were fleeing the party ("I can't run! I'm a frog!" and "The dog just spoke to me!"), and there's no indication he knew it was Tiana until he used the magic dust on her, at which point he could've just recognized her by her human appearance and made his appeal in accordance with what he knew about her.
422[[/folder]]
423
424[[folder: Why so rude, Facilier?]]
425* In the opening number, we see Facilier being a LiteralGenie, turning the guy who asked for hair into a werewolf. Umm, why? What did he gain from this? If his goal is cash, wouldn't doing a great job bring you more business, instead of cursing everyone who comes to you?
426** It all ties into the movie's message of weighing wants versus needs. Facilier's goals money and power, but he chooses to go about acquiring them by making deals with shadow demons and screwing over those who rank above him in the social hierarchy, out of bitterness.(This evidence is touched upon during his first conversation with the disguised Lawrence.) That's what he ''wants'' to do, even if he could go the more economical approach of using his powers to help people.
427[[/folder]]
428
429[[folder: Just work through Naveen]]
430* Okay, maybe I'm missing something here. Facilier's scheme fell apart because Naveen escaped, right? Otherwise, it probably would have been successful. So I have a question. Why did he need to use Lawrence at all? Naveen was planning on marrying Charlotte anyway, and Facilier was apparently "charismatic" enough to manipulate him. I guess what I'm asking is, why not assist Naveen in getting with Charlotte, kill her dad, and then take control of New Orleans? Any reason besides 'then we wouldn't have a movie'?
431** My guess is either because Naveen didn't need any help getting Charlotte, making Facilier's assistance useless, or because he thought Lawrence would be easier to manipulate. Probably the latter; If Facilier's plan had worked then Lawrence would have been totally in his control because any resistance would be met with the threat of exposing Lawrence to Charlotte and making him a butler again. There really wasn't anything he could hold over Naveen's head.
432** Charlotte's only standard was for a prince, which Naveen was. There was pretty much no way Naveen could not get Charlotte on his own. Naveen didn't want Facilier to win Charlotte, I'm sure he was confident enough that he figured he could get her on his own. Naveen wanted Facilier's help because he wanted the money without the commitment that marrying Charlotte would carry.
433** Although Lawrence being easier to manipulate was also a pretty good reason. Naveen may have been a lazy freeloader before his CharacterDevelopment, but he wasn't the kind of person who would be okay with killing off Big Daddy and selling the souls of the town to shadow demons, like Facilier wanted.
434[[/folder]]
435
436[[folder: Prohibition]]
437* The film is set when prohibition was going on, yet in one scene Naveen offers everyone a drink and at the party some guy is drinking wine. Now, it's understandable that Naveen wouldn't be familiar with the law, as he's a foreigner and only just arrived in the States, but several people can be heard cheering when he makes the offer.
438** Then, as now, New Orleans is a place where folks don't generally let legalities interfere with their good times. Even during prohibition it was never very difficult to get a drink there. It was eventually repealed for a ''reason'', after all.
439[[/folder]]
440
441[[folder: He wasn't happy?]]
442* Madam Odie says in her song about Naveen that he doesn't need his old rich lifestyle back because he wasn't happy then. He wasn't? The only thing he seemed displeased with while we saw him as a human was that his parents had stopped giving him money, and he was enjoying his time as a playboy in New Orleans too. Even during his introspection, he said he only became somber after he was kicked to the curb and realized he didn't know how to make a living.
443** That's not really happiness either; at least, not that kind that would last. Eventually he'd find himself too old to dance all day, or inherit the throne, or otherwise find himself being unable to distract himself with parties and playing; it's implied that the party life is what he does just because he doesn't know how to do anything else. That is, it's not a choice, it's a lack of options.
444[[/folder]]
445
446[[folder: A kiss from a princess]]
447* Why DID kissing a princess reverse the transformation? I mean, the only reason that occurred to Naveen at all was because Tiana squashed him with the Frog Prince book, a story that he was very familiar with. Given that he was cursed by a witch doctor, with voodoo being something that is regional enough to presumably not be around in Maldonia, where he heard ''The Frog Prince'' every night, that story would really have nothing to do with voodoo. So was it just a coincidence that Mama Odie revealed that kissing a princess would reverse it?
448** Turning people into frogs, in itself, has nothing to do with voodoo. Maybe Facilier got the idea from the same fairy tale as everyone else, so he had to abide by its rules?
449** Or maybe he played by the rules of the fairy tale intentionally, because it reminded him of his own situation. Facilier is motivated by being cast aside and downtrodden by the well-to-do members of society, so he turned Naveen into an embodiment of that sentiment and made it so that the only way to break the curse was by receiving the most intimate sign of approval from the highest class imaginable, as a way of giving someone of Naveen's status a taste of his own medicine.
450[[/folder]]
451
452[[folder: Unexplained blackout]]
453* When Tiana first meets Prince Naveen (in his frog form) she walks backwards and crashes into some shelves. When she does that, the lights go out as well. Why? Did she accidentally whack a light switch when she hit the shelves?
454** Probably.
455** The light was coming from a wall fixture right next to the shelf Tiana backed into, we hear a brief shattering sound just as the lights go out, and when the camera goes back to her, the fixture has disappeared. I think the implication is that her crashing into the shelf also knocked the light fixture loose and broke it.
456[[/folder]]
457
458[[folder: Green paper]]
459* Does Facilier know for a fact that Maldonian currency is green? Because his deceptive promise of "green" in Naveen's future wouldn't work too well if Naveen thinks of money as being some other color.
460** That, or Naveen was probably aware that US dollars are green.
461** Facilier turned his cards into green dollar bills while he said that, so Naveen would have had to be pretty dumb not to make the connection.
462[[/folder]]
463
464[[folder: A pointless precaution]]
465* Why does Lawrence have Naveen with him on the Mardi Gras float? Even assuming it was a precaution in case he started running low on blood, did he think he'd be able to pull out a frog and draw blood from it with no one noticing and wondering why?
466** [[ForcedToWatch Spite]], judging by his smug smile. Lawrence has fully embraced the vengeance angle by this point; he likely wanted to make Naveen suffer by watching helplessly as his butler stole not just his appearance but the girl whose wealth he'd originally wanted to marry into.
467
468[[/folder]]
469
470[[folder: Deleted scene]]
471* In one of the deleted scenes, where Eudora is sewing a dress using Tiana as a model, she accidentally pokes her with a pin and jokes "Serves you right for quitting your job like that." Wasn't she ''against'' having her daughter work two jobs?
472** Maybe she meant it as a way of saying that Tiana was living so much for the sake of getting her restaurant that she quit a job she may have held for a while, what seemed to be her only way of supporting herself, so impulsively, without thinking, as soon as she got the money she needed from Lottie. As opposed to simply taking things a little slower, maybe cutting back on her hours, and figuring out what her next move would be. Or, the innacuracy in the scene is the entire reason it was deleted.
473[[/folder]]
474
475[[folder: Mama Odie's houseboat]]
476* How did a boat get in a tree?
477** Flooding.
478[[/folder]]
479
480[[folder: Wedding legalities]]
481* A question about Tiana and Naveen's marriage...The wedding presided over by Mama Odie is apparently valid, enough so that it gave them an escape from Facilier's curse by making Tiana a princess, but then the scene switches to show them standing inside a church, surrounded by Tiana's mother and friends and Naveen's parents...What I'm wondering is, was the church scene just sort of a celebration? Would their wedding in the swamp have been accepted by the U.S. and Maldonian governments? Or did they just not bring up that they were technically already married and get married a second time just for the legalities?
482** Legally speaking the wedding does nothing. Some government documents can take care of whether someone is considered married for tax purposes. Overall, no, I don't think the swamp wedding would legally count in the eyes of the US or Maldonian governments. Any documents the governments may require after the ceremony are lacking in the swamp. That could (at least for the US) have been taken care of at a courthouse rather than have a second wedding. The second wedding is more for Naveen and Tiana's family and friends to join in and celebrate the marriage.
483** This might explain why they went through with a second wedding ceremony. Since New Orleans has a strong Catholic tradition thanks to being settled by French and Spanish people, Tiana might be Catholic. Or Naveen might be Catholic, or both. There are certain conditions that are necessary for a marriage to be viewed as valid in canonical law. One of them is form-related -- i.e., a Catholic has to be married inside of the Catholic Church for the marriage to be considered valid (if other conditions are met). Naveed and Tiana were married in a swamp, not in a Catholic church. I suspect the second wedding ceremony was merely meant to have their marriage be valid in the eyes of the Catholic Church. In fact, if two people go through two wedding ceremonies because one was defective in form but one person didn't truly consent to going through with a second wedding ceremony (actions speak louder than words), that is grounds for annulment.
484[[/folder]]
485
486[[folder: Loosening the lid]]
487* Facilier mentions that he needs Naveen alive in order for his blood to be used to fuel the talisman, but if that's the case...Why does he act so angry upon discovering that Lawrence loosened the lid to keep Naveen from suffocating? And why would he even leave him in that kind of jar, anyway?
488** Facilier isn't dumb; he probably knew that he left the lid loose enough for Naveen to breathe, and that therefore either Naveen psyched Lawrence out, or Naveen was hyperventilating in panic and ''inadvertantly'' psyched Lawrence out. Either way, he knew that Lawrence had no need to loosen the lid any farther...it only helped Naveen escape.
489** Alternatively, Lawrence misjudged Naveen's breathing or was exaggerating when he said he was ''gasping''. The jar did look quite small for Naveen's size, so he could've had trouble breathing that didn't amount to any actual danger. The scene also happens before Lawrence is fully on board with Facilier's plan, so at that point, it's not unreasonable that he'd have second thoughts about being so cruel to Naveen.
490[[/folder]]
491
492[[folder: Lies]]
493* "A wai- A ''waitress?!'' Well, no wonder the kiss did not work; you ''lied'' to me!" I think I have to agree with Naveen on this. Why didn't Tiana think to mention at any point before the kiss that she wasn't really a princess? She saw him flipping through the pages of the book and so it shouldn't have been any surprise to her where his train of logic was coming from, yet when he brings it up later on, she seems surprised that he assumed she was a princess.
494** It's pretty obvious Tiana is desperate at that point to get the money and achieve her dream, so she deliberately hid the fact she wasn't really a princess in hopes that the kiss would work anyway just because she really really wanted it/had wished on the Wishing Star. As to why she later got huffy about him assuming he was a princess when it was a costume party and she never actually said she was, that's an example of Tiana being a flawed character--i.e. she didn't want to admit it was her fault for lying to him and trying to take the easy way out, so she blamed it on him making assumptions. (Though she did indirectly admit her fault too, by saying "This is what I get for kissing a frog and trying to take the easy way out, hard work's the only way you get anything".)
495*** I just re-watched the scene to be absolutely sure, and Tiana did NOT lie, not even close! Naveen never ''said'' he had to be kissed by a princess...he said "You must kiss me," not "''A princess'' must kiss me." ''He'' assumed ''she'' was a princess; ''she'' assumed ''he'' knew what would actually break his curse. It was a princess in the original tale, sure, but there are other fairy tales where an act of kindness breaks a curse without royalty being an issue. It's easy enough to get mixed up when A) it's not ''your'' favorite fairy tale anyway (it was ''Charlotte's'' favorite; Tiana probably hasn't read it herself in years) and B) you're ''speaking to a talking frog who's trying to persuade you to break a magic spell.'' Tiana wasn't exactly in a state of mind to be examining the situation minutely for logic flaws.
496*** Even so, though, I believe I still have to consider that lying by omission. And it seems like a pretty big leap to suggest that Tiana wouldn't know the story of the Frog Prince. I think I could find someone who hasn't even heard the story firsthand and they'd still know that it was a kiss from a ''princess'' that sparked the transformation.
497*** I'm pretty sure at the time Tiana thought she was having some weird daydream or psychotic break because; TALKING FROG. So naturally it would never occur to her that A) she couldn't break the spell B) she had to be a princess as opposed to a "maiden" or some other fairy tale archetype.
498*** To lie by omission, you have to A. Know it's a lie, and B. Consciously choose to omit it. If Tiana had no idea that she was supposed to be a princess for the kiss to work, she was incapable of lying about it. To misrepresent something innocently, with no knowledge that it's a misrepresentation, has never been considered "lying" by any moral code or legal code I've ever heard of. Again: it wasn't Tiana's favorite fairy tale, it was Charlotte's; Tiana has had other things on her mind since she was six or seven, remembering the exact details of a fairy tale's plot mechanics wasn't in the forefront of her mind.
499** Additionally, one other possibility is that Tiana and Naveen were both glossing over the details of their transaction because they were too focused on their end goals. She didn't stop to consider that she didn't meet one of the most well-known criteria from the fairy tale just like he didn't stop to ask himself why an actual princess would need money as a reward for kissing him. From the very beginning, they were just thinking about their own wants of "Get my restaurant" and "Become human so I can marry Charlotte and become rich again."
500[[/folder]]
501
502[[folder: Unusually Uninteresting Alligator]]
503* During the ending, how did Tiana and Naveen manage to get Louis into the Fenner brothers' office without causing a panic and/or getting him killed by someone?
504** Also, digging deeper into this, isn't getting an Alligator's help to blackmail a notary, [[AssholeVictim no matter how nasty they are as a person]], considered a felony? Or is this ProtagonistCenteredMorality of some sort?
505** I'm not sure it would be so much ProtagonistCenteredMorality as much as "Normal, Not-Racist-Person-Centered Morality" - anyone with eyes could see that the Fenner brothers were amoral, racist, greedy jerks, so Tiana's morality does not need to be brought into question. As a matter of law, she still gave them the money, and it was presumably the same amount that they would've received otherwise - the only difference aside from their biased opinions was apparently that someone else would've given it to them in cash. Beyond both of these facts, it's not likely the Fenner brothers would've sought legal action against Tiana, since, as mentioned above, they got the money either way, and trying to fight her on it would've required them to fight a legal battle against ''the princess of a foreign nation'' in an attempt to prove that she ''threatened them'' with ''an alligator''. Not likely they would've won that one, so they would probably choose to just take the money and walk away quietly.
506*** I see what you (above troper) mean. However, the reason this was asked was because: 1 - Regardless of Tiana being a morally upright person and the asshole brothers being... well, assholes, there is still a system of law regarding selling and buying. 2 - It would seem that the (OFFICIAL, since some say the brothers are making it up as an excuse for their racism) reason Tiana almost lost the mill was because there was a Highest bidder, as in someone with more Cash to offer for the building. It's unfair for Tiana who worked hard her whole life to see her dream slip away, but it was all within legal framework (the ones who offer the most money for something in similar cases get the prize). As for "already gave them the money", she seemed to be giving them the money right at the end of the movie, with Louis overseeing the situation (UNLESS it was only the remaining part of the money she had to give; if so, then as mentioned above, the Fernels had NO right to keep the money she already payed before and deny her the mill). So, anything that was missed or we close this topic?
507*** Fenner brothers said, "A fellow came in offerin' the full amount in cash..." - maybe the emphasis was supposed to be on 'full amount' as well as 'in cash', but I only took it as they were more willing to accept the other bid because it wouldn't consist of dozens of coffee tins full of loose change and the occasional dollar bill. Overall, the three facts that would best answer this question would be: the Fenner brothers were jerkwads as it was, Tiana was still generous enough to offer them (presumably) the full amount, only using Louis as a bit of...''persuasion'', if you will, and the Fenner brothers would have a heck of a time trying to prove that she threatened them, especially in such an unbelievable way.
508*** I think the scene with Louis just came down to RuleOfFunny - would it really have been much different if Tiana had swayed their decision by bringing in, say, Big Daddy or Naveen's wealthy parents instead? It was there to show that Tiana has learned not to overexert herself and that it's okay to look to your friends for support rather than thinking you have to do it all alone. The animators had several choices of how to convey that sentiment, but [[TakeThatScrappy the Fenner bros. being threatened by an alligator]] happened to be the funniest, so they went with that.
509*** In hindsight, though, it does seem that Tiana did not pay them the full amount. It’s only hinted at once, as far as I know, but the chef at the restaurant she works at during the opening tells her, “You ain’t never gonna get enough for the down payment,” implying that’s what she was saving up for. The Fenner Bros. just must have been more content with taking the full amount up front than letting Tiana pay them gradually over time.
510*** If everyone did things exactly by the rules, regardless of how unjust those rules might be, we'd all still be living in a backwards, primitive society -- that's where the concept of protesting comes from. Saying Tiana shouldn't have "coerced" the Fenner Bros. into giving her the building is like saying Phoebus shouldn't have disobeyed Frollo by saving the miller's family in ''The Hunchback of Notre Dame''. There comes a point where rebelling against draconian policies becomes more important than playing by the rules.
511*** The old sugar mill had been sitting vacant for years, even before Tiana's daddy died, earning the Fenner brothers nothing and probably costing them tax money every year. They finally agreed to let Tiana buy the place with a downpayment and paying off the balance over time, giving them a steady income and making the taxes Tiana's problem. They ''had'' a verbal contract with her. When they reniged on that contract, ''they'' were the ones in the wrong. Using a little intimidation to get them to honor the deal they had agreed to was quicker and cheaper than taking them to court. (Plus this ''is'' deep in the South so Tiana's chances of a fair verdict wouldn't be great, but that doesn't change the fact that legally, Tiana is in the right here.)
512** As for why Louis was allowed to roam about in the first place, he was affiliated with Prince Naveen. Naveen could've told everyone around him that Louis was harmless.
513[[/folder]]
514
515[[folder: Disowning a prince]]
516* Not like I personally know anything about life as a royal, but wouldn't cutting off your son and sending him ''anywhere'' in the world with only a disloyal butler for supervision put him in a lot of danger? Like, precisely what happens near the start of the film, save for all the mysticism? What's to stop someone from kidnapping Naveen (or Tiana, after she becomes princess) and holding him (or her) for ransom or trying to impersonate him (or her) or something like that?
517** We don't know that Naveen's parents were the ones who arranged for his trip to America. More likely, they gave him a small sum of money to get himself a place to stay in Maldonia, and he blew it on a ticket so that he could come to the States and marry Charlotte.
518[[/folder]]
519
520[[folder: Why a frog?]]
521* I understand that things like "green" and "hop from place to place" have a pretty strict criteria for effective double meanings, but is there a reason why Facilier turned Naveen into a frog?
522** Perhaps because that's just how the spell ''works''. Facilier is not omnipotent or a RealityWarper who can just magic up anything; he uses specific spells with specific formulas, talismans, magic words or whatever mumbo-jumbo. So he just put to use the preexisting spell of 'turning someone into a frog', which presumably began with the original ''Frog Prince'' story (which we know already exists in this [[TheVerse 'verse]]). Alternately, [[FridgeBrilliance it was more closely an allusion to ''The Frog Prince'', since in that tale the Frog Prince is almost forcibly trying to get married with a princess, much like Naveen wants to get married to Charlotte at that point.]]
523*** That could reasonably be the case if it were established that MagicAIsMagicA in this setting, but it never is. The only rule established for magic in this setting is that practitioners of Facilier's particular type of Voodoo can't use their magic to directly benefit themselves.
524** Whatever he transformed Naveen into needed to be small enough to keep contained, large enough to safely draw blood from, and inconspicuous enough that, if he did escape, he wouldn't draw too much attention from anyone. Whatever pool of creatures Facilier had to choose from that he could also make double meanings out of, he probably just chose a frog because frogs are lowly, slimy and gross, which is also his opinion of people like Naveen.
525[[/folder]]
526
527[[folder: Is Tiana running an all-vegetarian restaurant now?]]
528* Something that's never brought up in the movie...Since Tiana and Naveen could and did talk to many different animals when they were frogs, and might even still be able to do so as humans, what does this say about either one of them's consumption of meat in the future? In the book ''The Frog Princess'', Emma and Eadric swore themselves off of eating meat after their transformation due to these implications, which is sort of what brought this to mind.
529** No way of knowing, but even if she does serve meat, it's a safe bet that ''frog legs'' aren't on the menu.
530** In fairness to them if they did continue to eat (and serve) meat, only a handful of the animals that they encountered in the swamp were actually friendly -- the leech, the catfish, the heron, and the initial pack of gators all showed no reluctance to feed on their frog-forms, in spite of the fact that the gators, at least, spoke the same language. Even Charlotte's dog seemed intent to chow down on them until Tiana identified herself as being Charlotte's friend. Encounters like those might've convinced Tiana and Naveen that animals eating other animals was just the law of the wild, and that any creatures they haven't already befriended could still be considered fair game.
531[[/folder]]
532
533[[folder: The Beignet Money]]
534* Did Charlotte really overpay Tiana? We've seen Lottie handing over a wad of cash but not the value of each bill? How much was the difference between the money Tiana had already saved by then and the money the Fenner Brothers asked as payment for the abandoned sugar mill?
535** I don't think there's any way of answering this...As you've said, there's no indication of how much she was paid, how much she'd already saved, or how much the building was. However, I don't know where you're getting the idea that Charlotte may've overpaid her.
536[[/folder]]
537
538[[folder: Making them human]]
539* I can understand why Mama Odie couldn't directly reverse Facilier's spell on Tiana and Naveen...but could she have just used her magic to independently turn them from frogs into humans? Or did Facilier also put some sort of "lock" on them that would keep them in that form until it was broken?
540** Whether or not she could, the point was that she wouldn't. She was more interested in 'what they needed' than 'what they wanted', and accepting a life as frogs would be part of that journey. Starting a life together, regardless of whether they were banking on remaining frogs, benefits them more than simply getting a cure for the frog curse, with the convenient side-effect of breaking the frog curse. It is plausible that she could have done something about it if they had become better people - er, frogs - without actually happening to fall in love with *each other*, but as that's not what happened, it's kind of a moot point...
541[[/folder]]
542
543[[folder: Backfiring kiss]]
544* Does the film explain why kissing Naveen turned Tiana into a frog? It seems too random to just be a side effect of the spell, and why would Facilier or his Friends include a clause like that willingly? It only caused them more trouble by bringing someone else into the scheme.
545[[/folder]]
546
547[[folder: Lawrence's voice]]
548* Shouldn't Lawrence have been given Naveen's voice, while he masquerading as him? The talisman gives him all the features of Naveen's appearance and physiology - why wouldn't it have given him his vocal cords, as well?
549** That's a common feature of the "shape-shifting impostor" trope. It's mostly just to ensure audiences aren't confused as to whether or not we're looking at the real one or the fake one.
550[[/folder]]
551
552[[folder: It never occurred to them?]]
553* Even in passing, at no point while they were preparing for their wedding in the swamp did Naveen and Tiana consider the fact that she would become a princess by marrying him? Seems weird that they apparently never considered the possibility.
554** They probably assumed that it had to be a princess by birth, by blood, not by marriage. Lottie qualified because she's the biological daughter of a King, albeit a superficial one and only temporarily.
555[[/folder]]
556
557[[folder: Where did they get the money...]]
558* To repair and renovate the sugar mill into a restaurant? Especially such a nice-looking restaurant? I was under the impression Tiana's tins of change all went toward acquiring the building, and elbow grease can only get you so far.
559** They probably started selling food there while it was still dingy, and used to money from that to renovate it.
560** Maybe now that Naveen has committed to a real relationship and a responsible job, his parents decided he'd learned his lesson and he regained access to his family's money.
561** In addition, to show how she's changed from the events of the film, Tiana could have asked Big Daddy for a loan that she could pay off.
562[[/folder]]
563
564[[folder: Picky voodoo magic]]
565* Tiana turned into a frog when she kissed Naveen, but [[spoiler: Lottie]] didn't? Why not?
566** Maybe because [[spoiler: the voodoo talisman was destroyed/Dr. Facilier was dead. Tiana and Naveen were still frogs because of magic inertia, but no new voodoo magic was happening.]]
567** Additionally, if I recall correctly, the spell could only be broken by her kiss prior to the breaking of the talisman, so she would be immune to the spreading effects of the spell. Presumably.
568** Actually, Tiana was transformed into a frog because she wasn't a real princess, thus causing the spell to turn backward and make her a frog, too. [[spoiler: Charlotte ''was'' a princess, but her kiss didn't work because she did it after the clock struck midnight.]]
569** Except she wasn't a princess. The only reason [[spoiler: Charlotte had to be kissed before midnight is because she only counted as a princess during Mardis Gras,]] so the spell should have backfired there too. Also, the talisman was part of Lawrence's deal, not Naveen's. Since Naveen and Tiana stayed frogs and broke the spell through the princess clause, all after the talisman was destroyed, there's no reason to believe the "spell backfires if the kisser isn't a princess" clause wouldn't also be in effect.
570** It could also be intentions. Tiana's reason for kissing Naveen was similar to enough to his to spread the spell. [[spoiler: Lottie]] was doing it as a favor for a friend and for non-selfish reasons. This combined with the fact that [[spoiler: the voodoo talisman was destroyed]] could be the reason.
571** This troper always assumed that there may have been some residual frog-transformation magic left in Naveen since he had JUST turned into a frog mere hours ago. The sort of 'voodoo dust' probably hadn't settled yet, so to speak, and Tiana just got caught up in an extension of Naveen's curse.
572[[/folder]]
573
574[[folder: Stating the simple solution]]
575* Lottie is Prince Crazy, and Facilier is (supposedly) royalty on his mother's side. Why didn't he just marry Lottie himself, kill [=LeBouf=] with the voodoo doll, and rightfully inherit the riches? (Possibilities below...)
576** The [=LeBouf=] non-racism doesn't extend that far. He's fine with Tiana and Lottie being friends, but would never stand for Lottie marrying a black man.
577*** He was fine with letting her marry Naveen, so maybe not? (Of course, he's pretty fair-skinned, and his claims of royalty are a bit more credible than Facilier's, so maybe Big Daddy was just willing to let the matter slide to please his daughter.)
578** The FOTOS don't think that's evil enough and actually want Facilier to be as evil as possible.
579** Complete lack of interest on Facilier's part makes some sense, I suppose.
580** Also, it occurs to me that Jim Crow laws would probably prevent it.
581** Though none of this (other than lack of interest, I suppose) would explain why Facilier couldn't just steal a form.... (can steal a white form, marriage/consummation under false pretenses is [[RapeIsASpecialKindOfEvil a special kind of evil]])
582** Well, he ''does'' say he can't conjure a thing for himself.
583** Lottie may be Prince Crazy but that doesn't mean she lacks taste or common sense.
584** He could have just been lying about the royalty thing, too.
585** Also, he's a royal on his mother's side, but most royalty is patriarchal so he didn't inherit and thus is not a prince.
586** Even if he was telling the truth, would you believe him? More importantly, would Lottie and her father believe him? And Lottie was looking for a fairytale prince, so she wouldn't necessarily care even if he could convince her.
587*** This, pretty much. Naveen is the spitting image of the classic, Disney-Prince type that Charlotte is interested in. He's tall, handsome, charming, smooth-talking even through the most bizarre situations, has connections befitting a member of royalty (even if his parents cut him off, there's nothing saying they wouldn't keep in contact with him or let him visit on occasion)...Facilier is a dirt-poor voodoo witch doctor who lives on the streets, is towering, wiry, and thin as a twig, has a gap between his teeth, is probably at least a few years older than Naveen, wears skimpy, dark clothes...He's far from the princely image Charlotte is going for.
588** When Facilier says he's royalty on his mother's side he probably meant that she was a voodoo queen. Probably not the kind of royalty Charlotte, or her father, would consider.
589** It seems that most people in New Orleans knows about the "Shadow Man" Dr. Facilier and try to have as little to do with him as possible.
590[[/folder]]
591
592[[folder: Does Tiana have a surname?]]
593* I feel like she'd be the likeliest Disney Princess to have a last name, but if she does, it's never revealed in the movie itself.
594[[/folder]]
595
596[[folder: The Frog Prince and 'The Frog Prince']]
597* Why does the Frog Curse/Enchantment work the ''exact same way'' as in the story that is in that Universe? Why would a Voodoo Curse be cured by the Kiss of Royalty (or Not-so-real Royalty) anyways?
598** It was suggested that the terms of the spell were something Facilier "borrowed" from the original tale, so to speak, seeing as voodoo itself has nothing to do with turning people into frogs. And considering the situation, it's actually a pretty ingenious way of breaking it seeing as America doesn't commonly play host to members of royalty.
599[[/folder]]
600
601[[folder: Naveen’s situation]]
602* Lots of entries on this page state that Naveen was disowned/disinherited by his parents before he came to the States, but where in the film is that ever said? Facilier and Naveen both say only that his parents cut him off, and I doubt Lawrence was just tagging along with him out of the goodness of his heart. If you throw your adult child out of your house and tell them to go get a job, that doesn’t mean you’re disowning them — it seems to me like Naveen’s parents just stopped supporting him financially.
603[[/folder]]
604
605[[folder: Cut Dr. Facilier a check?]]
606* Facilier's establishing character moment has him get paid by a bald man to make his hair grow back, so facilier basically gives the man [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertrichosis hypertrichosis]]. Um, ''why'' exactly? Facilier doesn't seem to have a reason to grant his customer's request in any way other than the one said customer had in mind, and in fact opting to go JackassGenie like this only ensures that this man won't be paying Facilier for any more services in the future. It makes sense for Facilier to act this way with Naveen and Lawrence, since Facilier woudn't get to use them in his scheme otherwise, but why the bald guy?
607** Because Facilier's schtick involves being as much of a JackassGenie as possible because he's embittered and envious of anyone more well-off than him. The plot with Naveen and Lawrence didn't even seem to occur to him until after the film started, so he was likely content to make a meager living swindling and scamming people until the opportunity for big bucks made him change his course.
608[[/folder]]
609
610[[folder: When did Tiana and Naveen fall in love?]]
611* It seems obvious Naveen fell for her first. But why did they act like the other didn't love them at all. Didn't it become obvious they were in love when they nearly kissed on the lilipad. Yeah Tiana pulled away but she should have known that Naveen liked her if they nearly kissed!
612** Tiana has always valued working over social interaction, and even if she was savvy enough to realize the rammifications of Naveen's kiss and didn't rationalize it as them getting caught up in the moment, Naveen admits to her later that he's never taken a relationship seriously before he met her. In her mind, the kiss might've signified a sense of attraction to her, but that alone isn't enough to say that it's real, genuine love.
613[[/folder]]
614
615[[folder: Tiana killing Facilier?]]
616* Did Tiana pretty much get Facilier murdered? I mean she smashed the tailsman and then just let him get dragged to his doom and pretty much killed.
617** No. Murder is defined as the intentional killing of someone else. Tiana can't have murdered Facilier if she didn't know his life hinged on the state of the talisman -- even if she had, she was trapped as a helpless frog and had every right to be fearful for her own life. From a humane perspective, she did look quite horrified as she watched him being dragged down by his Friends, but there wasn't a lot she could do to help him even she'd wanted to and his Friends would have allowed her. Everything that happened in that scene was Facilier's own doing.
618** Oh yeah! She never was shown to be aware that smashing the amulet would cause that and did seem sympathetic when she saw his gravestone.
619[[/folder]]
620
621[[folder: Does Facilier have two shadows?]]
622* When Tiana is telling his living shadow she'll smash the amulet Facilier runs up and has a shadow. Tiana is still yelling at his living shadow and despite this Facilier clearly has a shadow when he runs up and blows the dust on her. Does he have more than one?
623** It's possible, but I don't think Facilier has a second shadow at any other points in the movie. I think it's more likely that his living shadow retreated back to him in light of Tiana's threat, or it was just a goof on the part of the animators.
624[[/folder]]
625
626[[folder:Wedding invitees]]
627* Why weren’t there any human characters at Naveen and Tiana’s initial swamp wedding? It would be a huge shock to reveal that the two were now trapped as frogs, and Naveen’s parents coming out to see them would probably be difficult to arrange, but not even Tiana’s mother was seen in attendance — just a bunch of animals that the main characters never interacted with. Had they planned on ever telling anyone about their transformations?
628** Given the difficulty of finding Mama Odie in the first place, followed by the dangers within the bayou, such as unfriendly alligators, it's possible that even if they knew, it would be impossible for any human character to attend Naveen and Tiana's swamp wedding.
629[[/folder]]
630
631[[folder:What species of snake is Juju?]]
632* He appears to be a constrictor such as a boa or a python. Yet he has vertical slitted pupils, which indicate a venomous species. Constrictors are not venomous, and they have round pupils.
633** According to the Character page, he's an [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_hognose_snake Eastern hognose snake]]. Eastern hognoses are technically venomous, but they're not classified as such because their venom doesn't really affect humans.
634[[/folder]]

Top