Line #89 Headscratchers/TheLegendOfZeldaOracleGames


1	New entries on the bottom.
2
3	[[foldercontrol]]
4
5	[[folder:Third game]]
6
7	* So if there was a third game; do you think maybe Farore would have been a painter, and the villain would kidnap her, the Oracle of Secrets, and then transform the world into [[RealIsBrown Morrowind or a modern-day FPS game palette]] while Link had to gather the essences of colour (ROYGBIV plus something like pink maybe) to restore the world back to its natural and colourful state?
8	** Actually, Farore wasn't made the Oracle of Secrets until after they scrapped the third game; originally, she was going to be the Oracle of Ages and ''Nayru'' would've been the painter/color-based oracle. This is why, in Oracle of Ages, there are so many color-based puzzles and why the past is more drab and colorless than the present age.
9
10	[[/folder]]
11
12	[[folder:Twinrova]]
13
14	* How did Twinrova come back to life?
15	** Well, they did seem to AscendToAHigherPlaneOfExistence in Ocarina, so... Maybe they're not really "dead" and the [[AWizardDidIt goddesses]] let them [[JerkassGods just come back]] for some reason.
16	** Seeing as the Oracle games take place in the [[TheHeroDies Decline timeline]], their deaths simply might not have happened that time around. After all, the sages that sealed away Ganon in OOT seem to be different ones than the ones in ALTTP (it's hard to believe the former all having Hylian descendants) -- Link may have never even ''met'' Koume and Kotake in this timeline.
17	** Or Link ''did'' meet and kill them, but after Link was then killed, Ganondorf revived them sometime before he finally was sealed. Probably because he thought they might be useful at some point. Which they were, sorta.
18	** The Hero of Time is implied to have lost during the final battle of OOT in the Decline Timeline, so Kotake and Koume would be already dead. Then again, it's not like resurrection is impossible in the ''Zelda'' series, and it seems to be within Ganondorf's ability to do this sort of thing when he has the Triforce of Power (Volvagia in OOT is an old dead dragon he revived). There's also the possibility that, since the series in general and the ''Oracle'' games especially are very fond of the LegacyCharacter trope, this is simply a different incarnation of the witches, who Ganon took under his wing later.
19
20	[[/folder]]
21
22	[[folder:Timeline]]
23
24	* Hyrule Historia marks these games as a sequel to A Link to the Past, and for the most part, the games themselves suggest the same thing. However, implication suggests that the Lv. 2 sword (Noble Sword) and Lv. 3 sword (Master Sword) are one and the same, in different stages of power. It is also heavily implied of both that this is the very same Master Sword seen in many other Zelda games. So... how did it get from Hyrule to Holodrum/Labrynna?
25	** Of special note, it's found sitting in a pedestal in Holodrum, in a place called the Lost Woods. Geographically speaking, if it was the same place as in Alttp, then Link would have been in Holodrum all along.
26	** The Lost Woods have always had strange teleporting abilities.
27	** Alternatively, it is a broken sword given to you in the distant past in Labrynna. The previous owner states that it was given to them by "the legendary hero". If The Hero of Time broke the Master Sword and gave it to someone, how does Link find it in A Link to the Past?
28	** I see it in one of two ways. Either A: The Master Sword in Oracles Isn't canon. or B: The Holodrum/Labyrina Master Sword is not the same Sword of Evil's Bane. After all the design slightly differs on the crossguard despite the Master Sword's design being concrete at that point.
29	** According to the Hyrule Encyclopedia, the Master Sword as it appears in the Oracle Games is apparently just an upgrade to the Noble Sword, which gives it power that's ''comparable'' to that of the true Master Sword of Hyrule, but isn't meant to be the exact same blade.
30	** ''Skyward Sword'' establishes that the Master Sword is sapient and can possibly move about on its own, but this still begs the question of which order of sword upgrades between the two games is canon. Namely, if the broken sword the old Zora gives to you is canonically the last upgrade, that detracts from the notion that it is the same Master Sword, since it's unlikely Fi would be able or willing to snap herself in half for no reason.
31	[[/folder]]
32
33	[[folder:Ambi and Holodrum]]
34
35	* How is Ambi in Holodrum in the Linked Game? I mean, it's set in the Present...
36	** Nayru can travel in Time...
37	** Ambi explicitly states that she had Nayru send her into the future the first time she appears.
38
39	[[/folder]]
40
41	[[folder:Ralph's ancestry]]
42
43	* Ambi is still lovesick over someone who [[TearJerker is revealed to be dead if you link from Ages to Seasons]]... so where did Ralph come from? Ralph is her descendant after all.
44	** Being lovesick for someone doesn't mean you're forever bound to them or that it's impossible to get together with anyone else, even if only for political reasons. Ambi probably wasn't so lovesick that she was unable to preserve her line by siring an heir.
45	[[/folder]]
46
47	[[folder:Subrosia and Holodrum]]
48
49	* How Subrosia and Holodrum interact. On the one hand, the Temple of Seasons simply sinks into the ground and lands in Subrosia, implying it's simply a subterranean area underneath Holodrum. On the other hand, the Cap'n ship has its prow sticking out of the sand in the Holodrum desert and its aft sticking out of Subrosian ground, implying they're on opposing sides of a (rather thin) flat world...
50	** There are two ways you could look at this; The first one is that both the Temple of Seasons and the Cap'n ship have portals below the ground that they've teleported through. In Cap'n case, his ship got stuck halfway through. The second idea is that if the worlds are indeed opposing sides, then the Temple of Seasons didn't land in Subrosia but rather rose from the ground.
51	*** ...but then wouldn't it be upside-down?
52	** The Temple is stated to have fallen into Subrosia by the Subrosians themselves, so it definately dropped down. For that matter, you can trigger a volcanic erruption in Subrosia that reaches up to Holodrum later on. However, Subrosia's portals don't exactly obey normal space to begin with; the portals do not line up with each other or follow any kind of linear relationship in terms of position. My guess would be that the temple literally fell into the ground due to Onox's magic, whereas the pirates crashed through an entirely unrelated portal and ended up with their ship bridging across it. The temple is the one thing that doesn't follow the rules of the portals (step into a swirly hole in either world and pop up in the other), and was moved under different circumstances to begin with.
53	*** In support of this, there already is a portal to Subrosia from the remains of the temple in Holodrum, but it does not take you anywhere close to where the Temple ended up in Subrosia. And there are portals a few screens apart in Subrosia that take you to opposite sides of the map in Holodrum. So the case seems to be that Subrosia is located somewhere beneath Holodrum, but the portals connecting them are not synced up geographically from one to the other.
54	*** Although... no, that doesn't make sense either, because of the eruption that was already mentioned. The eruption happens in the area near the portal that connects to the temple remains, yet it also manages to reach into Holodrum, where those same temple remains become flooded with lava. So that means that the temple is explicitly located above the volcanoes in northwestern Subrosia, which still begs the question of how it ended up in northeastern Subrosia when it fell down underground.
55	[[/folder]]
56
57	[[folder:Bad Future]]
58
59	* Why is the "Present" in ''Ages'' not a BadFuture? The Black Tower should have been completed in the past, giving Veran everything she needs to create her "Age of Shadow".
60	** I assume ''Ages'' works on [[SanDimasTime parallel time]]. Assuming the tower was never finished during Ambi's lifetime before Veran showed up and it was meant as a way to signal her lover, then the BadFuture will not happen until the tower has been completed and Veran has accomplished her "Age of Shadow".
61	** Except stuff like the petrified kid and the Maku Tree getting RetGone happens instantly, so SanDimasTime isn't in effect for everything... I'm willing to accept that the Black Tower exists outside of time [[AWizardDidIt because magic or something]], but in that case the other changes to the timeline should be staggered as well. [[TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodPlot That actually could have been interesting]], if things start fine but the present progressively becomes more and more of a BadFuture, thus raising the stakes and heightening tension as you get closer to the climax...
62	** Then it could be proportional to how big the change is. The Maku Tree and the kid being turned to stone (while I think that's magic instead of time shenanigans, I'll go with it here) is relatively minor and quick to change. The tower being built into Black Tower for darkness to consume the land? In the original timeline, Ambi never even got to finish the tower in her lifespan and it's originally meant for finding her beloved. Such a grand change in the timeline would probably take some time to happen.\
63	\
64	Alternatively, changes like the Maku Tree getting RetGone happen because that's how things will play out until someone is able to change its course, aka Link. The Black Tower is something that is left undetermined until it succeeds given its massive change in course. That being said, maybe the fact that it hasn't changed is saying [[StableTimeLoop Link has already won]]...
65	** The Black Tower is different from everything else in that it presumably will remain standing regardless of whether Link does or does not defeat Veran -- it was meant to serve a completely different purpose when Ambi started building it, and it's still standing in the present during the epilogue in a non-Linked Game. And Veran's exact plan once the tower is complete is not made clear, apart from that she's trying to cause sufficient sorrow to light the Flame of Sorrow in pursuit of Twinrova's goals. All she does upon gaining the "power of shadow" is turn more people and animals to stone or erase them from existence, which is something you see happening in the present from the very beginning of the game. Since she lacks any motivations of her own, it's possible Veran didn't bother keeping up the "Age of Shadow" long enough for it to have a sufficient effect on the future.
66	[[/folder]]
67
68	[[folder:Veran's possession]]
69	* One: Why does she never try to possess Link? She chooses the queen she was able to control indirectly anyway over the one person who managed to defeat her (and who is a OneManArmy besides), really? Neutralizing Link seems like the far smarter option, tactically. My only guesses for this one are either that she can only possess women, or that the Triforce of Courage protects Link somehow.
70	** Veran could not pass a stone with the triforce symbol on and needed Link to move it in order to get close to Nayru, it is clear that the triforce symbol itself is enough to stop Veran from interacting, despite being an oracle Nayru does not have the triforce emblazoned on her, Link does.
71	* Two: Why can't she just re-possess Nayru after Link breaks the possession?
72	** She does. He just backflips out of the way. As for the latter, probably too thrashed to pull it off again, or anticipating that trying it would just result in another Mystery Seed to the face. Probably the latter, since she goes for Link as soon as she's banished from Ambi.
73	** Ah, I forgot about the endgame possession attempt. But that just makes it more confusing -- why didn't she try that the first time? And while it would just result in Link blasting her again, his stock of mystery seeds (and his health) is limited, while Veran can presumably keep up the possession indefinitely. Plus the guards had already arrived when Veran possessed Ambi -- re-possessing Nayru at that point would have spelled certain doom for Link and Ralph. Perhaps we can [[EpilepticTrees hypothesize]] that she can only attempt to possess people once (since she doesn't try again after Link dodges in the final battle).
74	** Link doesn't have any real power that she can make use of. Nayru can manipulate time (and possibly do other things) with her magic, and Ambi is a queen with hundreds of loyal followers. She didn't try to possess Link because he doesn't have any real way to influence events in her favor.
75	** You’ve made a couple of mistakes in this assessment, which I will now list off: 1.) Why would Veran choose to possess Link instead of Ambi when Ambi is the only one who can let work continue on the tower? 2.) Veran clearly thinks that Link does not stand a chance against Ambi’s guards since she calls them in to capture and/or kill him, so possessing him and letting Ambi go free is even more of a bad idea. 3.) I don’t even know why you’re asking about her possessing Nayru again when possessing Ambi is already a much smarter move since it takes away the need to manipulate her to do what Veran wants. It’s not as though she put off possessing Nayru to do something less effective. 4.) By the time she’s forced out out of Ambi, she doesn’t need to possess anyone since the tower is already done. She tries to possess Link once just for kicks, but decides killing him is better since she’s so frustrated with him at this point.
76	** Also possible is that Veran just has qualms with possessing a male body.
77	[[/folder]]
78
79	[[folder:Why didn't Nayru bring Veran into the future?]]
80	* After the ClimaxBoss against Veran-possessed Nayru in ''Ages'', Veran jumps hosts to Ambi, and Nayru rescues the heroes by teleporting them into the future. Why didn't she bring Ambi with them? Bringing Veran into the future would end her evil plot then and there, and she would then be free for another smackdown without the guards to protect her. The fact that Ralph and Link are so close to her when she casts the spell implies she has to be right next to people to travel with them, but she still couldn't have, I don't know, run up to Ambi?
81	** Leaving her in the past at least ensures that the heroes know where she is and that she won't be able to go anywhere else without Nayru in the same time period. Bringing her back to the present runs the risk of her possessing Nayru again and using her power to travel to a different point in Labrynna's history, where Link and Ralph won't know where she is.
82	** Suddenly running next to their queen would also likely set the guards off immediately and considering how fast the guards are once the stealth section ends, it would be a serious threat to Nayru. She'd also have to let Link and Ralph know the plan and go with her so they don't get left behind which she probably didn't have the time to do.
83	[[/folder]]
84
85	[[folder:How does Ralph travel through time?]]
86	* The time portals are inactive without the Harp of Ages. Ralph does not have the Harp. How does he manage to follow Link through time?
87	** At the beginning of the game, Ralph follows Veran and Nayru into the past and stays there until Nayru is rescued and Ambi is possessed in her stead, at which point Nayru brings Link and Ralph back into the present. After that point, he can presumably travel between the ages freely, as Nayru is with him.
88	[[/folder]]
89
90	[[folder:Link's age]]
91	* Just how old is Link supposed to be? According to WordOfGod, this is after he's already had one adventure, and he looks to be adult height in cutscenes, but everyone refers to him as "boy" or "kid", even characters who presumably aren't using it as a diminutive or insult.
92	** Mid-late teens, maybe? That gives him enough time to have gone on a previous adventure while still being a kid.
93	** Even someone in their early twenties could be called "kid," especially if they have a youthful appearance or are being addressed by an older person.
94	** And in which cutscenes is he shown to be adult-height?
95	[[/folder]]
96
97	[[folder:Could Twinrova have used the Triforce?]]
98	* ''A Link to the Past'' shows that the Triforce is capable of resurrection, so why don't Twinrova try to assemble it to resurrect Ganon? My only guess is that they know that trying to assemble the Triforce usually ends badly.
99	** ...Wasn't the Triforce shown inside Hyrule Castle at the start of the game? How would Twinrova have gotten her hands on it?
100	** The same way everyone else does? Hyrule Castle isn't invincible (quite the opposite, if anything). If Agahnim could infiltrate it, I doubt that would be outside their capabilities. I suppose you could FanWank something about Hyrule Castle being on high(er) alert after the whole Agahnim business, but it still seems odd that they never even considered it when almost every other Zelda villain has.
101	** Maybe, but it ''is'' basically invincible when its inhabitants have the power of the gods at their disposal and are fully capable of using it. And this is assuming that Twinrova would know where the Triforce was.
102	** It's probably a lot harder for two elderly Gerudo women who are known to work for Ganon to infiltrate Hyrule Castle than it would be for a human-looking stranger who offers hope in a dark time.
103	** Plus, when their goal is to revive Ganon, they wouldn't want to alert the same people who defeated him last time of what they were doing, which trying to steal the Triforce would surely do. The only reason the Hyruleans got involved in Holodrum and Labrynna was thanks to Zelda's prophetic dreams; otherwise Ganon's return would've caught them completely off guard.
104	[[/folder]]
105
106	[[folder:Veran's weakness]]
107	* Why doesn't Link tell anyone about Veran's weakness to mystery seeds after the Nayru fight? It's pretty important information for Ralph. And to pre-empt [[HeroicMime the obvious counterargument]], it's obvious that he's not literally mute. Does Link just hate Ralph?
108	** Presumably nobody else is holding onto a Switch Hook.
109	** It would still be courteous to let Ralph know he doesn't have to GrandfatherParadox himself to save the world.
110	** Mystery Seeds don't prevent that on their own. The possessed body sleeps and Veran's shadow form is briefly manifested, but she counts as being "inside" them for the sake of being hit. You can't damage her without first using the Switch Hook, which likely can't be easily duplicated or replaced.
111	** But Ralph has a habit of showing up, saying something, and then running off before anyone can try to talk him out of it. He's a bit of a LeeroyJenkins like that, so even if Link wanted to say "Dude, Mystery Seeds and Switch Hook", Ralph has run off screaming "NAYRU!!!". And by the time Link knows that Ralph has RoyalBlood and is about to run facefirst into the GrandfatherParadox, Ralph has already run off into the Black Tower. The next time Link sees Ralph is the first time anyone actually gets to talk to Ralph, and it's Veran, who has good reason to not reveal her weakness, doing the talking. The only time I remember that Link is really implied to say anything to Ralph is right before entering the palace, when the question of how Ralph knows about the secret passage comes up, and even that might just be from a strange look.
112	** It's a defining part of Ralph's character that he's not one to sit on the sidelines and let someone else (especially Link) save the day. Link telling him that Veran is only weak against Mystery Seeds and the Switch Hook would be asking him to do just that.
113	[[/folder]]
114
115	[[folder: Rosa and Crescent Island]]
116	* In a linked gamed from Seasons to Ages, Rosa first appears in the past version of Crescent Island even though she is from the present. How did she get into the past?
117	** Likely the same way Maple did.
118	** The implication seems to be some of the echo portals were opened up by accident, letting things get displaced.
119	[[/folder]]
120
121	[[folder: Veran's plan]]
122	* Forgive me if I've missed something -- I've only just started the game -- but Veran's plan in ''Oracle of Ages'' seems a bit confusing to me. She possesses Nayru and travels back through time, where she manages to hijack a heartbroken queen, convincing her to use an endless day to...build a tower, which somehow will cause enough sorrow and despair to bring Veran's goal to fruition? Not only does that not make much sense (to me), but why does Veran bother with something so specific in the first place?
123	** Veran created an endless day, making the workers work non-stop. The day itself never ended but people still felt the flow of time (hence why the post man knew he had to make deliveries). People were upset at their loved ones being away so long (and in some cases being dragged away) to work on the tower. It changed from the symbol of a heartbroken queen's hope for her lover into a tyrant's symbol of oppression and forced labor.
124	** This in turn led to sorrow and depression from the workers themselves and the families and loved ones of the workers (one woman quotes how her husband had been taken to work on the tower saying she may never see him again). Which wasn't so much as Veran's plan as her role in the plot for Twinrova's Flame of Sorrow, which was fueled by the people's sadness from these horrible changes and events.
125	* I assumed there was something in the design or makeup of the tower that would provide Veran with more of the "powers of shadow".
126	[[/folder]]
127
128	[[folder: When you wish upon a triangle...]]
129	* So Impa was sent by Zelda to collect the two Oracles and bring them to Hyrule, where they'd be safe from danger. But the Triforce is inside Hyrule Castle as of both games' beginnings -- why not just use it to ''wish'' them there and save Impa and Link all the trouble?
130	** The Triforce seems to be actively manipulating events, such as sending Link to the Oracles itself. It might simply not have accepted wishes. Also, since it is never used to immediately solve all problems instantly when it's assembled, it is likely that there is an unknown rule to what wishes it can grant and when.
131	** Considering references to trials and training in other sources, it's also possible it's a deliberate gambit on the part of the Triforce. It could solve the immediate problem itself, but this way Hyrule gets to strengthen its ties between two lands, Link helps out problems Hyrule wouldn't even know (and thus can't wish fixed), and Link gets serious training to defend Hyrule in the future. With the Encyclopedia saying the Triforce splits apart immediately after, if the split was inevitable there would be even more incentive to let Link handle it.
132	[[/folder]]
133
134	[[folder: Impa]]
135	* What exactly is up in terms of Impa's design and character? In every game that came before and since these two, she's either a wise old woman who imparts her knowledge to Link or Princess Zelda's younger, more proactive protector. Yet in both of the ''Oracle'' titles, she appears as a middle-aged woman with a very...unconventional body type, who doesn't seem to actually do anything beyond introducing Link to the quest he has to go on and then leaving it to him to fulfill it. Was there really such a need to include her when that's all she ended up doing?
136	** Considering the games were originally going to be a remake of Zelda 1. This is probably a callback to that considering Impa only appeared in the game's manual and not the game itself. Otherwise she does hold relevance as she's the earliest hint to Zelda's presence in the games (linked ones anyway). Plus in linked games she specifically says that she was trying to smuggle the Oracles into Hyrule. This can be more seen in Seasons linked where the Troupe are revealed to be Hyrulian knights in on the ruse.
137	** In terms of her design, it's probably meant to contrast the one she was given in ''Ocarina of Time'' and the like to justify her staying out of the action and leaving things up to Link.
138
139	[[/folder]]
140
141	[[folder: Why Seasons then Ages?]]
142	* Ages to Seasons closes more plot hooks (Ambi meeting her lost love and getting closure with him for one), so why is Ages the second? Ambi will never know what happened!
143	** Second...how? The official timeline seems to list the two of them together, but ''Ages'' is actually given first.
144	** For the record, [[https://d1u5p3l4wpay3k.cloudfront.net/zelda_gamepedia_en/7/7c/Timeline_Hyrule_Historia.jpg?version=486893ab827a6ee61b29e785e68b42be Hyrule Historia's timeline page]] never truly lists them one after the other, just together as a duology in alphabetical sequence (Ages/Seasons). And the main reason Ages is considered to be the second half of the story is because of its end credits, which depicts [[http://www.zeldaelements.net/images/games/oracle_of_seasons/ending/24.png Link sailing away from Labrynna on a boat.]] The next entry in the timeline after these two games is [[VideoGame/TheLegendOfZeldaLinksAwakening Link's Awakening]], which starts off with the [[https://www.zeldadungeon.net/Zelda04/Walkthrough/01/Intro-05-Large.png same Link]] [[https://www.zeldadungeon.net/Zelda04/Walkthrough/01/Intro-04-Large.png in a boat.]]
145	** Actually the scene with the boat happens in both games via Linked save file. There is neither a right or wrong way for the story to be told. While Ages>Seasons makes more sense i.e. the Ambi subplot getting payoff. The Master Sword (assuming you upgraded your sword to level 2 via secret) is in it's usual place of the Lost Woods (albeit I don't think it's the same Master Sword). The Seasons>Ages route is probably considered "Canon" due to that's the route the Manga took (Though I personally feel the build up of shit hitting the fan is better with the latter. Compare Onox not showing up again till the end of the game to the black tower arc (and by default Veran) being made worse with each passing dungeon).
146	** I assumed it was just by analogy with ''VideoGame/PokemonRedAndBlue'', with Seasons being red and Ages being blue.
147	** If the only argument made for Ages>>Seasons is that it gives Ambi's subplot closure, that's not a good reason to disregard the canonical order of the two games. The subplot of Ambi searching for her lover is not important to the completion of either game -- I know it's why she's building the Black Tower early on, but it's not long before she forgets about that and switches to finishing the tower so she can go down in history as a famous queen. Even in the scenario you get by playing them out of order, her lover turns out to be a skeleton by the time she finds him. I don't really see how that counts as closure.
148	** Also, the finale hinging on Zelda being "hope for the people" seems to make more sense if the Linked Game ends off in Labrynna, since Veran's plans have led to various citizens of the land being turned to stone or just vanishing from existence, so there's a greater need for a symbol of hope and therefore more sense in sacrificing Zelda to bring about despair. Whereas the scene where she gives hope to the people of Holodrum seems really underwhelming -- Onox's plan hasn't really done anything destructive, despite that being his goal. The most destructive thing he accomplished was flooding Sunken City with meltwater from the mountains, so the game treating Zelda's kidnapping as the end of all hope doesn't come off as effectively.
149	** The Linked Game from Ages>>Seasons also makes the intros to both games work more effectively. One from Seasons to Ages has Link aid an Impa who appears to have completely forgotten they've met before despite the last game. Ages to Seasons not only doesn't have that problem but reveals the people traveling with Din are Hyrulean Knights trying to escort her out of the land as quickly and discreetly as possible, which makes far more sense for a game where one oracle was already attacked.
150	*** The reason Impa doesn't recognize Link in a Linked ''Ages'' game is because she's being possessed by Veran, who hasn't met Link before. Once she's freed from the possession, she recognizes him from the events of ''Seasons'' right away. If anything, the troupe members being knights is the Linked Game intro that makes less sense; if they know someone's after Din by that point and that whoever it is probably knows she's the Oracle already, why do they bother with the disguises, and why are they sitting leisurely around a fire, drinking and playing music, instead of getting her out of Holodrum as quickly as possible? At least, in the case of ''Ages'', it could be argued that Impa sought Nayru out alone so as not to draw as much attention as bringing a brigade of knights to Holodrum did.
151	** Besides, just because Ambi doesn't reunite with the Cap'n onscreen doesn't mean that it never happens. Presumably, she embarks on the same journey regardless of which game you finish first, and in a Linked ''Ages'' game, the pirates are last encountered in the present age of Labrynna rather than Holodrum, making it a lot more likely that she'll happen across them in her search.
152	[[/folder]]
153
154	[[folder: Connection to the Gerudo]]
155	* Both Veran and Onox feature the crest of the Gerudo tribe on their clothing - Veran on her sleeves and Onox on his armor. They're definitely agents of Twinrova, given their stated goals. But how are they actually related to the Gerudo? ''Are'' they? Or did the witch sisters give them the mark after allying with them? Veran at least could be a Gerudo with her green skin and red hair, but her final boss fight throws that out the wind. [[spoiler:She's some kind of dark Great Fairy with shapeshifting magic.]] Onox, on the other hand, doesn't show very much skin to begin with but has a complexion similar to light skinned Hylians. [[spoiler:He's actually a dragon.]] So then, is it just their connection to Twinrova? Are they of the Gerudo tribe but not of the Gerudo race themselves? Are they formerly ethnically Gerudo but [[spoiler:took monstrous forms in the pursuit of power or destruction]]?
156	** I think we can just assume that the symbol is worn out of their alliances. Characters like Zant were known to do the same thing.
157	[[/folder]]
158
159	[[folder: Why are the Maku Trees so vague?]]
160	* In the early part of both games, the Maku Trees tell Link that gathering the Essences of Nature/Time will help him defeat Onox/Veran, but neither of them elaborate on how that will work or what the essences ultimately do, meaning you spend most of the game working toward a goal that you don't really even understand. It turns out that gathering the essences allows each Maku Tree to grow a large seed that, when used, dispels the protective magic surrounding Onox's castle and (presumably) the Black Tower. What kept them from just explaining that from the get-go?
161	** The Maku Tree in ''Ages'' at least tells you that the Essences of Time hold the power to see the truth, and their ultimate use is to dispel the two false doorways that you find at the top of the Black Tower, ensuring the only one left is the real one that lets you advance. And she has lost some of her memory due to Veran's plot to meddle with time, so it could be said that she just doesn't remember enough to tell Link anything more. As for ''Seasons'', that Maku Tree tells you from the beginning that the power of the Essences of Nature will be enough to dispel the dark force surrounding Onox's castle. He just doesn't tell you ''why'' they have that ability, meaning it's just something you're supposed to accept and go along with.
162	[[/folder]]
163
164	[[folder: Temple of Seasons]]
165	* During the epilogue of Oracle of Seasons, everything has returned to normal in Holodrum, except that the Temple of Seasons is still stuck down in Subrosia. I realize there’s not a lot the heroes can do about getting it out, but why don’t Din, the Maku Tree, or the season spirits seem concerned about it? And for that matter, if the seasons remain in balance so long as Din is free from imprisonment, why did Onox bother sinking the temple to begin with? What did it accomplish for him?
166	** Possibly, he sank the temple just as a precaution. If he didn't know about the Rod of Seasons, he might still have worried that the season spirits could do something to keep the seasons in order even with Din in captivity, so he sent them underground so they wouldn't be able to interfere. Din may just be a conduit for the spirits' blessings just like the rod is, so if she's taken out of the commission, they could seek out someone else to fill the role of the Oracle unless Onox keeps them from doing so.
167	[[/folder]]
168
169	[[folder: Nayru's song]]
170	* Why didn't the Nayru-apparition teach Link the Tune of Ages instead of the Tune of Echoes when he found the harp inside her basement? She hid it for the purpose of allowing a hero to help in case something happened to her -- why wouldn't she give him the most useful song, in that case?
171	** I'm thinking it was just another precaution; Nayru doesn't know anything about this shadow that's about to come over her when she hides the harp away, so for all she knows, it could've been someone trying to steal the harp from her instead, meaning she would try to give them as little power as possible while still giving a potential hero the tools he needed to help her. It's not as if Link has trouble collecting the Essences of Time without the Tune of Ages; it would just allow him to obtain some of them earlier than others.
172	[[/folder]]
173
174	[[folder: Pirates]]
175	* The ghost of the pirate you work with in Samasa Desert in ''Seasons'' recounts how he got lost in a sandstorm and woke up as a spirit, and you helping him find the bell he was looking for enables him to pass on. This led me to think that the other pirates aren't actually dead, and that maybe they're just a type of people who happen to look like skeletons...but then when their ship sets sail and they all get seasick, they say it's because they haven't been on the open sea since "they died". So, if they're all already dead, what caused that one in the desert to end up as a spirit who needed to pass on when the others are perfectly fine just being skeletons and don't seem concerned with passing on?
176	** He's probably part of the pirate crew who wasn't as [[{{Pun}} onboard]] with the other crew's ongoing passion to sail the seas, and just concerned himself with collecting the bell like he was asked to do. Sitting inside a sandstorm for who knows how long would probably contribute in wanting to just pass away peacefully; at least the crew on the ship have each other and Subrosians to pass along the time. All he has is sand in his eyes.
177	** As it turns out, the skeleton in question doesn’t end up passing on anyway, it seems. I went back to the desert oasis and found his skull was still sitting there; he says he’s been barred from the afterlife for so long at this point that he doesn’t know how or if he’s able to get there now. Meaning he’s left to sit in the far corner of a barren desert, idling his time away throughout the rest of his existence, since you’re unable to take him anywhere beyond the desert or reunite him with his crew. That’s actually a little horrifying.
178	[[/folder]]
179
180	[[folder: Which country are we in again?]]
181	* When you go to meet the season spirits in Oracle of Seasons, one of them mentions the “Hyrulean” legend of a hero with a triangle on his hand, and another says this hero will appear “when shadows fall on Hyrule”...The game takes place in Holodrum, though. Any connections to or things going on in Hyrule are not mentioned. Is this a leftover from when the game was going to be a Zelda I remake? If not, why would the spirits reference Hyrulean events and lore when they’re in a different country?
182	** Holodrum and Labrynna are neighboring countries of Hyrule. The prologues and endings of the linked games take place in Hyrule itself.
183	** While I appreciate your attempt, I’m afraid that’s not exactly what I was asking. I’m wondering if there’s a reason why the season spirits speak as though the events of the game are taking place in Hyrule. I know most of the game is set in a different country; that’s why I’m asking.
184	** Is there any reason those spirits wouldn't be wise enough to portent about events in the neighbouring realm of Hyrule?
185	** No, but why do they need to mention Hyrule when it's never implied to be in peril otherwise? Holodrum is the country that's in trouble in this game; why not just have them say "When shadows fall on Holodrum, a hero with a triangle mark will appear"?
186	** Just because he was in Holodrum this time to save it doesn't mean he'll always be there for Holodrum. He's a Hyrulean Hero who just happened to end up here by the Triforce deciding to send him. I'd assume they're acknowledging he won't always be there, even within his lifetime, when "shadows fall" the way he would with Hyrule. The country also may not have distinct legends of the same hero, but still know of Hyrule's legends.
187	** Plus, maybe Holodrum is actually a territory that exists under Hyrulean governance. The only insular authority seen is the mayor of Horon Village, with no mention of who rules the rest of the country. Impa is also able to bring a brigade of Hylian knights into Holodrum to help protect Din, and at least one villager is aware of who Princess Zelda is. If this is the case, the season spirits could be referencing Hyrulean myths and legends because that's where the mythos of their own country traces back to.
188	** One thing that's worth considering: ''what'' is the "shadow falling on Holodrum"? '''Ganon.''' There isn't much of a reason for the Season Spirits to care about Hyrulean myths when their area of influence is Holodrum, true, but when Holodrum is threatened by a force that seeks to revive an ancient enemy of Hyrule, wouldn't it make sense for the ideal hero to be the same hero (or an incarnation of the same hero) who has defeated that ancient enemy before?
189	[[/folder]]
190
191	[[folder: Rosa in Holodrum]]
192	* In Oracle of Seasons, you first get to Subrosia by sneaking after Rosa as she shows the way to the secret entrance. But what is she doing in Holodrum to begin with? Subrosians are never seen outside of Subrosia anywhere else in the game, and the direction Rosa comes from when Link runs into her leads to a dead end with nothing of particular interest for her to have been there for.
193	[[/folder]]
194
195	[[folder: Onox's victory]]
196	* How was Onox's plan enough of a success to have lit the Flame of Destruction? He stated his goal was to make Holodrum a wasteland in which all living things would perish, but he didn't come close to achieving that. The seasons being in chaos does flood Sunken City with melted snow, and a Horon villager ponders how the harvest for that year will turn out, but on the whole, the country appears to be fine. There's no property damage or people falling ill or wildlife failing to thrive or anything else that could be blamed on the shifting weather.
197	[[/folder]]
198
199	[[folder: Forest fairies]]
200	* The fairies you encounter in the present version of the Deku forest in ''Ages'' strongly resemble the Stray Fairies from ''Majora's Mask''. However, the Stray Fairies originated in that game as the scattered pieces of four Great Fairies whose forms were broken apart. Yet in ''Ages'', not only do the fairies not appear to be part of a collective being, but they're also different colors, meaning there would theoretically be at least three different Great Fairies whom they ought to be a part of.
201	[[/folder]]

Context Headscratchers / TheLegendOfZeldaOracleGames