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1* Claire infamously tells Brian about how they will most likely forget about each other come Monday morning, since they all belong to different social cliques and would never fit in with each other. Many viewers wanted to hate her for that and accused her of being horribly selfish while certain viewers have considered it to be a case of StrawmanHasAPoint. However, when you think about it, the idea of them "being in cliques that are just too different" isn't really true at all. After all, Andy is a well known athlete and BigManOnCampus, so Claire's rich schoolgirl friends would most likely be cool with Claire hanging out with Andy; in fact, they probably would be attracted to Andy, since not only is he a known jock but also quite the pretty boy as well. The only real difference between Bender and Allison's cliques is that she is a loner while Bender had friends before he was in that detention on that day. At first glance, Allison looked like one of the folks that Bender would hang out with (which might explain Bender's line "I've seen you before, you know" to Allison early in the film). Really, when you think about it, the only person amongst the five in which Claire's statement has any truth with would be Brian. Namely how Brian is way too much of a nerd to be seen with the "Popular Kids" like Claire and Jocks like Andy, while being a bit too clean and straight-laced to be with "Bad Kids" like Bender and Allison. (Especially considering how Brian knows that his mother would never approve of him hanging out with the latter two.) In other words, for the most part, Claire's idea that they all would ignore each other due to their far too different cliques is not really true when you think about it.
2** But it's pretty obvious during the movie that the discussion of "different cliques" is more about Claire and Andy vs Brian vs Bender vs Allison. Claire and Andy aren't ever put separately; they're both popular and from the same social circle (they actually talk at one point, one asking if the other is going to the party of an acquaintance they have in common, and it seems to confirm that they do interact socially sometimes or have friends in common). If anything, they're probably just not from the same classroom or have the same strict group of friends, but they're definitely from the same social sphere. I have to disagree about Allison and Bender, though, they're not that similar (not before the events of the movie anyway) out of first glance. Claire even tries to shame Bender into admitting that he wouldn't take Allison to one of his "heavy metal vomit parties" with his friends. Allison isn't "one of the bad kids", everyone just sees her as kinda crazy, which is not the same as Bender, who is implied to be a part of a group of delinquent metal heads, not of eccentrics like Allison. Bender also has a sort of reputation to maintain in his own clique, but it is that of a "bad" kind of reputation, unlike Claire's which is a "good" sort of reputation. Point is: when Claire says they'll all ignore each other on Monday, she's definitely not talking about her and Andy, but about how they'll both ignore Allison and Brian, and how Bender will most likely ignore those two as well; Bender and Allison are not closer to becoming friends and starting to talk to each other than any of the others.
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4* While I and ''quite'' a lot of people were bugged by Ally Sheedy's UnnecessaryMakeover for obvious reasons, there is another reason to be bugged by that pink blouse. What on earth is the Molly Ringwald character doing with a spare pink blouse in her backpack, anyway? I know she's The Princess and all, but why would even the girliest of characters carry around spare pink clothing?
5** I carry around spare clothing all the time. And I'm a guy. I imagine that for girls, an extra bit of clothing (at least once a month) is a safety measure.
6*** An extra ''blouse'' once a month? But I always figured it was Claire's; she seemed like the type who'd carry an extra blouse just in case. In HS, I knew a girl so into giving makeovers that she carried extra hairbrushes, scarves and hair ties, and a makeup-kit that took up half her back-pack.
7*** Apparently Claire also packs shampoo and a blow-dryer, ''and'' is capable of giving somebody a high-speed salon treatment in the girls' restroom sink.
8*** Liquid hand-soap and an electric dryer is more likely; Allison's hair didn't need a thorough wash, just a styling. She also says she never throws anything away, so she could've had just about anything in her purse.
9** She carries a spare blouse in case she spills something on the one she's wearing.
10** I always just figured it was what Allison had on under her oversized sweatshirt. I hate the makeover (up until that part Allison was my hero) but the pink blouse was the only part of it that never bothered me.
11** In an interview included with one of the DVD edition's bonus features, the film's costume designer says that the pink camisole that Allison is wearing after her makeover is just what she had on underneath all of her other stuff. It was supposed to be representative of the fact that she was hiding herself in a variety of ways, hiding her body under layers of dark clothes, hiding her face behind her hair and make-up, hiding her personality behind calculatedly weird demeanor. Everyone in the film gets a moment of raw vulnerability, and the make-over is hers, as it strips away all of her armor. Her line to Andy after her makeover, which is in the trailer but not in the final film, "I don't want to be alone anymore," would have further underscored this. Many people (including Ally Sheedy, who played Allison) have expressed disappointment with the makeover scene, usually because they identify with Allison as an artsy goth (or find artsy goths attractive) but, despite her dark clothes and artistic abilities, Allison isn't trying to present as an artsy goth, she deliberately acts weird because she want people to pay attention to her. None of the characters are entirely how they present themselves to the audience or each other at the start of the film, which is the film's entire point.
12** Does anyone else think that she actually looked WORSE after the makeover? 'Cos to be honest I think she looked way better before.
13*** I liked the way she looked before the makeover better, but as is pointed out, she would be happier after the makeover. Her first appearance gave her a slightly otherworldly look, which I like because I like stories about TheFairFolk. But her second appearance made her seem more human, and that's what she wanted. She may or may not decide to stay "normal", but she needed to know that she had the option.
14** I always looked over the makeover part, and thought the scene was sweet because the girls were bonding. She gave the makeover because that's the way The Princess knew how to show her friendship.
15** She may have looked "better" before from the point of view of those viewers who identified with her character as a loon on the fringe of high school society, but the poor girl wasn't ''happy''. Claire's makeover offered her acceptance more than anything else, and made her actually smile. Plus she looked fresh-faced and sweet, whereas before she looked scruffy and slightly mental. It's all a matter of opinion and how you identify with the character...
16*** Except for the jock guy only found her desirable and appealing once she got the makeover. And all the characters seem to universally act like it's an improvement on her.
17*** No, he didn't. If you watch the scene before, he's staring at her when she's not looking. How is that "only finding her desirable after the makeover?"
18*** There ''was'' a line about how now they can see her face. It may not have been about beautifying her so much as about being ''allowed'' to look at the beauty that was always there.
19*** It's not just people who identify with loons and fringes. I don't, and I think she looked hot as hell before as a sexy GothGirl, and several of my fellow students in a class of psychology where the movie was played thought the same, and they are the stereotypical jocks. It is possible that for the 80s standards her look was very weird, not so much for today's.
20*** People who complain about the makeover because "they" thought Ally Sheedy looked better beforehand are missing the point, which is that ''it's not about anyone else's opinion but Allison's''. Allison herself likes the look, and clearly feels a bit happier and more confident as a result of it, and that's all that matters. The goth girl look may be more "alternative" and "cooler" than her post-makeover look, but it's just as oppressive to demand she conform to it simply to satisfy someone else's preferences than it is to demand she makeover to conform to a different set of preferences.
21*** I echo the above. Imagine, for instance, if Andy's father, or someone who identified with his hard-driving jock image, or someone who found unrepentant alpha-males attractive, expressed disappointment over his revelations. Finding Allison ungenuine for allowing Claire to giver her a makeover and enjoying it wouldn't be that different from calling Andy a wuss for feeling bad about tormenting poor Larry.
22** Really? They seemed to be bonding quite a bit before the makeover happened.
23** When Allison dumped her bag out you can see shes got some clothes in there. After all, she carries all that shit around so she can run away anytime (or make people think so).
24** And there's no reason Allison couldn't alternate between ''both'' looks at a time.
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26* Why did Vernon allow Allison to stay in detention? It seems like he didn't know she wasn't supposed to be there, but surely he must have?
27** Maybe he assumed another teacher put her on detention that day and forgot to tell him? Personally I didn't get the feeling that he knew what each of the kids were there for, except Bender and maybe Andy (since a student gluing another one's ass seems to be something the Principal would get involved in). Perhaps teachers just tell him during the week that this and that student will be there on Saturday for detention, so he knows he'll have to be at school Saturday morning, but Vernon's a busy guy, so weekend comes and he already forgot who exactly was supposed to be there and why, and assumes that the only reason a student would have to be on a school at Saturday morning is that they did something wrong; which also explains why he doesn't bother to check the attendance.
28** Also, I don't think it's ''technically'' against the rules for Allison to spend all Saturday at school if she wants to.
29*** It ''is'' the school library, and it's not actually locked up. So long as she's not taking any books away when there's no librarian on duty to check them out for her, Allison stopping by to look up information for a term paper or whatever on a Saturday might be tolerated.
30** Maybe some other kid skipped coming to detention altogether, and Vernon (who clearly doesn't know Allison) just assumed she was the fifth name on his list.
31** Vernon is also very clearly not overly invested in having detention duty. The guy clearly doesn't want to come into work on a Saturday, and he not entirely unreasonably assumes that most students wouldn't come into school on a Saturday either, so the fact that she came in on a Saturday and went to detention just means that she has detention. He's just not especially interested in following it up further because he really doesn't care that much.
32** Allison's being there because she "didn't have anything better to do" is funny, but yeah, it doesn't really make sense. Vernon would have had a list of who was supposed to show up for Saturday detention, or else there'd be no way of ensuring that anyone actually showed up for it. I'm a bit surprised that no one has put forth the idea that Allison was just lying; it fits in with the kind of lies she's already told, as it makes her look like a weirdo. There's also the fact that someone drove Allison to the school that morning, and while it's not outside the realm of possibility that Allison would've lied to her parents about having detention (to get their attention, because that's her thing), the school would've also called them to make them aware of it (interestingly, there are actors listed in the credits as playing Allison's parents, but from what I remember they never actually appear on screen in the theatrical version). Possibly Allison reveals her real reason for being in detention in Hughes's lost director's cut, but I don't buy it that she just didn't have anything better to do.
33** She might maybe have said to her parents that she was going into the library to study all day, and them being neglectful just went "sure whatever" and dropped her off.
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35* If they're "bad kids" anyway, why bother going to detention in the first place?
36** I assume that if someone is assigned Saturday detention as a punishment, his or her parents are called and notified of this. If the parent agrees that Saturday detention is a suitable punishment, there's not much the student can do about it.
37** Let's look at the five of them by stereotypes (which some of them followed pre-movie just because):
38*** Princess: She's a good girl, she wouldn't skip detention, it might hurt her image and her parents ''would'' get mad at her.
39*** Jock: Ditto. Plus "No college is going to take a discipline case."
40*** Brain: [[RuleOfThree Ditto.]]
41*** Basket Case/Kook: Remember? She had nothing better to do. She wanted to be there.
42*** Criminal: He doesn't care ''and'' it gets him out of his abusive household.
43** The only bad kid is Bender and he doesn't seem to care at all about spending his Saturday at school away from his house. The others were driven there by their parents anyway.
44*** Also, the penalty for skipping detention, IIRC (high school was a very long time ago!), is more serious punishment, including suspension. With the exception of Bender (and possibly Allison), these kids are college-bound and a suspension is a permanent mark, or so they're led to believe.
45** Bender is all bark and no bite. He'll mock authority figures as much as he can get away with, but he still defers to them. Also he's a bit of a {{Troll}}, so maybe he liked the idea of teasing the others all day.
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47* The last five minutes. Ugh. Except for the jump on the football field, none of it made any damn sense whatsoever. Especially the kissing.
48** I got the idea that that was to show them trusting each other and the fact that everybody loves everybody and just watch the damn movie and the ending makes sense.
49** It's pretty obvious there is sexual tension between John and Claire through out the whole movie. The ending kiss isn't that strange if you were paying attention.
50** You lock five hormonal teenagers in a room with each other for nine hours and don't expect a few of them to hook up?
51*** That's exactly what I wouldn't expect. Seriously, how often do two people have their First Kiss on the very same day that they meet for the very first time? Especially when they start the day hating each other. (And let's note that, although they were high for awhile, nobody seemed high when the First Kiss stuff rolled around.)
52*** How many people spend nine hours with someone the first day they meet them? And how many of those people spend those nine hours almost alone in a fairly private place?
53*** You would be amazed how many teenagers have their first lots-of-things with other teenagers they just met.
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55* I know that there's only two girls and three guys in the movie, but it still bothers me that Brian is the only one who isn't paired up at the end.
56** But the actor who played him got to date Molly Ringwald in real life (and met her via this film). Also, apparently Molly was rooting for their characters to end up together in the film.
57*** Your parentheses suggest Sixteen Candles either never existed or they somehow filmed all of their many scenes together separately.
58** The writers supposedly thought he was too young to believably date. Yes, that is stupid.
59*** He's old enough to smoke pot, but he's too young to date?!
60*** Emotionally too young, yes. Besides pre-makeover-Allison (and it's strongly implied that her childishness was part of her act of making herself seem weird), Brian is the most childlike out of all of them, even just through his mannerisms. It's actually not that unusual for a child whose parents place a lot of academic pressure on them to have an emotional maturity far younger than their physical maturity, since they're more used to being told what to do by an authority figure over a longer period of time. When he's talking about what clubs he's in, he even refers to himself and the others in the clubs as "children". None of the five are exactly the most mature people in the world but the other four have at least reached the point where the ins and outs of dating actually makes sense to them.
61** Maybe this is just a more modern take, but is it necessary for everyone to be wrapped up in a cute little heterosexual couple at the end? Having him be a singleton at least adds a bit of realism.
62*** That's how I felt. And from what I could tell, it really wasn't like he was looking to date anyone there.
63*** It's not so much that someone wasn't paired up, it's that, of all the people, the geek was the one that no one wanted. It's like, no matter what we learn and discover about ourselves, some things never change. The geek will stay home and do our homework while we go and have rampant teen sex.
64*** I love this movie, and that's the only detail that I really hate. Because it's spot on... and because I was him. Everyone else goes on to be in love, Brian goes home alone. Again. Reminds me of freshman dance! He doesn't seem remotely upset that everyone but him is hooking up, though, which to me was incredibly unrealistic.
65*** Or possibly it just continued the overall theme of high school (and on a larger scale, society (and on an even larger scale, life)) not being fair and sometimes the "pretty people" end up making out in the closet while you're stuck writing the damn essay.
66*** It being a John Hughes movie in the 80's, homosexual pairings would not have been acceptable, so there aren't that many combinations of boy/girl that could be made. However, if the point of the story was to break down stereotypes, then perhaps it would have been better for the geek to date one of the girls, and the jock to stay single. In my experience at least, it is geek and the crazy girl are the least likely to have dates in highschool, whereas the jock, the princess and to a lesser extent, the hood, that can get dates easily.
67*** I disagree. In order for the stereotypes to be properly broken, the relationships must cause shake-ups, not just at school, but on the home front as well. Brian cannot effectively do this because he would only startle one or the other, but not both. If Brian had wound up with Claire, he'd only cause a shake-up at school, but if he were to wind up with Allison, he's only shake things up on the home-front. Andy and Bender, however, can shake things up both at school ''and'' on the home front.
68*** In other words, nothing ever changes. Except, it does for most of them. Just not for Brian. (And Dick, I suppose.)
69*** Bender and Claire got together at the end and I got that. They had a decent amount of sexual tension throughout the movie and I expected it to happen. But Andy and Allison just seemed a lot more tacked on, and I always thought it would have made more sense for her to end up with Brian. They're already the two social outcast type characters anyway (Bender's a special case, kind of toeing the line between popular and outcast) and as has already been mentioned, Andy not being with anyone would fit in more with the breaking down of stereotypes. Really, it would have been better even if Claire and Bender were the only ones who ended up hooking up and the others just stayed friends.
70*** To be fair, Andy and Allison probably gets more direct build-up throughout the film than Claire and Bender do. Andy keeps on talking to her after their initial walk to get some drinks, and he's clearly the one who cares the most about her when she talks about running away and how her parents ignore her. To me, it's Claire and Bender who get tacked on, since before their kissing scene when she comes to get him from the room Vernon locks him in, they're practically at each others throats.
71** If the students were a Venn Diagram, Bender would be the one in the overlapping section (both cool and an outcast at the same time). He should've been the one to stay single.
72*** Makes sense, but Bender needs a positive influence in his life, something to show that there's something out there for him. He doesn't have to settle for another few years of abuse, getting arrested for fighting back, or running away and never finishing high school.
73** There were only five kids, and I did rather enjoy the two couples that came out of it (Andy and Allison in particular). But I personally don't like this choice as the poor guy was not only left alone and single to do his paper, but the cool kids actually got him to do their homework for them, both of which reinforce the fact that geeks are unpopular losers. John Hugehs' reasoning on why Brian was single is that he was too socially immature for a relationship, but that doesn't really work when Claire seems to want to date John because it'll piss off her parents.
74** I think Andrew has a lot more potential than Brian to be a healthy influence for Allison. Remember how Brian is in all the clubs and has attentive parents and teachers and and Allison ''doesn't have any friends or anything to do with her day''? She's the one in need of something to change her life and the one we should have sympathy for, in my opinion, and having her first boyfriend be an equally inexperienced and similarly socially confused awkward mess is likely to make her life more difficult than it needs to be. It may be tough for Brian, but I think he will be fine. Like if we measure their general wellbeing, happiness and future prospects I'd put Andrew, Allison and Brian at 75%, 5% and 60% respectively at the start of the day, 85%, 80% and 80% at the end, but if Brian and Allison got together instead then 80%, 45% and 85% - the nerd suffers a little bit for a greater good.
75** Okay, we've all made some good points here. Basically what this argument comes down to is whether the nerd should be shunted a relationship so the abused boy can get a support system. My thinking is this: Bender doesn't need a girlfriend, he just needs a friend. What little development that his relationship with Claire had should have been spent bonding with Andrew as friends. Bender could help Andrew to be his own man and move out of his dad's shadow (the parental abuse Andrew suffers appears to be entirely psychological, not physical like Bender's), and Andrew could extend a hand to Bender and be a friend. Bender's a smart guy, very perceptive and has a sharp tongue. He's also pretty well built. Can anyone else see him taking Andrew's place on the wrestling team? He'd have a safe, acceptable outlet for his frustration with a whole team of peers. Creating a budding Bromance between Bender and Andrew results in Claire being free to date Brian, and Andrew still ends up with Allison. The Brian/Claire relationship similarly works for the both of them; Claire gets Brian a social life away from his parents overbearing, Brian helps pull Claire closer to Earth and become less of an Alpha Bitch. Being with a bookish buy might inspire her to pursue an interest other than popularity (I haven't seen the movie in a while, do they mention her academic/extracurricular life?). As mentioned by many people, the Claire/Bender ending not only prevents Brian's link to a social life (relationship wise at least), but it also comes off as the start of an abusive relationship. How many Lifetime channel movies have to back story be the vapid popular girl hooks up with an abused, dangerous guy that she thinks she can fix, with the added benefit off pissing off her dad? I think the people who want to see the "bad kids" hook up (Bender/Allison or Allison/Brian) are aiming for a kind of cynical-sweet outcome; their world still sucks, but they become each other's one bright spot. It's kinda sweet, but hardly the "everybody helps everybody" outcome John Hughes was going for (just my opinion).
76** Who says Brian even ''wanted'' to hook up with anybody in the group? For all we know, he already has a relationship (or a heavy crush) with someone who wasn't in detention that day, or is simply more concerned with his studies than with having a non-stop social life.
77** He has that girlfriend from Niagara Falls. On Monday, Claire's going to be hanging around Bender's locker again trying to get his attention [which we can assume she'll get.] Allison needed someone to show her some affection. Claire did this, having fun showing someone how to be girly. Andy tried to do this in being a young man, confronting her about her problems, but he's also an athlete. A victory is a victory, and making out with a girl who's just learning to be desirable counts. If he and Allison run into each other the following week, he'll probably talk to her, but if he sees her in the hallways, he'll point out to his buddies that he made out with her during that detention. High fives all around. Brian, by contrast, was treated with respect for his intellect. Sure, he was manipulated into it by Claire, but she spoke for all of them that they trusted him to be the best. He doesn't get that kind of validation at home. When he saw Allison, newly-made, he was stunned by her beauty. She'd never experienced such a look before, and it took her a few seconds to understand and whisper "thank you." I won't say I identify with Brian, but I'm certainly much closer to him in spirit than the other characters in the movie [except maybe Carl.] Brian will go on to be successful in life. Claire has money, Andy will become Al Bundy, Bender will probably be a failure, Allison could go anywhere, but just on this one Saturday in high school detention, you can understand the arc of his life. Decades from now [well, 1985] he'll be looking back on this day as another day in high school that he didn't score with the chicks, but he's become much wiser since. Don't weep for Brian because of a dramatic presentation of nine hours in his life where the other guys hooked up with chicks.
78*** Brian getting good grades does ''not'' mean he will be successful in life. This is a man who tried to kill himself over one bad grade. Crippling fear of failure, the refusal to think for himself, and a lack of people skills might be rewarded in the kind of shitty high school in which the film is set, but in the real world they'll do him more harm than good.
79** I don't buy the "Bender needs a support system" excuse for why Brian had to stay single. Bender is from an abusive home, but Brian was ''contemplating suicide.'' He needed a support system just as much, if not more. It still just reeks of UnfortunateImplications when the nerd is left alone despite being established for being messed up and needing help as much as the other boys.
80*** So getting four friends out of the movie is being left alone? He needs understanding a whole lot more than he needs to get laid; if anything, a potentially-fleeting relationship based on having shared nine hours in a room would be more likely to ''worsen'' his depression, if it fell apart a few weeks later. Brian didn't get to hook up, but he ''did'' get the vindication of knowing that classmates from so many different social niches wholeheartedly agree that he should've drop-kicked that stupid elephant-lamp in the dumpster and told his slave-driving perfectionist parents to go to hell.
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82* I always wondered why they all assumed that handing in one (ridiculously short) essay for all 5 of them would be acceptable to Principal Assmunch.
83** It's Saturday afternoon, he's ''not'' getting paid by the hour, he wants to go home too.
84** The movie makes it clear that he's as trapped in and frustrated by the system as the students. Remember the coffee cup balancing on pencils, the deconstructive chat with the janitor?
85--->'''Vernon''': These kids turned on me...they think I'm a big fuckin' joke.
86--->'''Carl''': Come on...listen Vern, if you were sixteen, what would you think of you, huh?
87--->'''Vernon''': Hey...Carl, you think I give one rat's ass what these kids think of me?
88--->'''Carl''': Yes I do.
89** The essay itself gets into this, but they've learned not to care what other people think. It's a stupid assignment, done solely for the sake of busywork.
90** They don't. It's an act of rebellion borne of their coming of age, or whatever it is they got from this experience.
91** The essay was not something Asst Principal Vernon could really make the students do. Sitting in school all day on a Saturday is the defined punishment. What's he going to do? Turn in the omni-essay written by Brian and tell his boss "Hey Principal, these kids only finished one essay". Claire and Andrew want him to write the essay so they feel covered. Allison (who really does not have to be there) and Bender don't care about the essay. BTW: the length of an essay is not as important as its content.
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93* And how the hell did Emilio break a window by yelling at it?
94** A trained singer [[GlassShatteringSound can break glass]] by hitting the right frequency. Alternatively, he has [[MusicalAssassin sonic superpowers]].
95** That can be done by standing very close to the a (small) piece of glass and singing at exactly the right pitch--but a piece of metal is usually needed to transfer the sound wave into the glass. It's not that you need to sing high, just at a right pitch and tone.
96** I had always just assumed he only thought he did because he was high.
97** Windowpanes are next to impossible to shatter with your voice (the glass is too soft to resonate properly), especially by yelling at it like a gorilla. Crystal is much easier to break, but since they typically don't make high school windows out of crystal, I'd go with the "only thought he broke it because he was high" theory.
98** "It was the 80s". That's my theory. Same reason we heard guitar music after Bender's colossal "Fuck You" when Vernon was walking out of the room.
99** I also assumed he only thought he broke it because he was high. John Hughes has said that, in retrospect, he wished he hadn't included that bit.
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101
102* In the scene where they're running around the school and they keep coming across Vernon, how the hell does he not hear five people running? Or the music? Or the glass breaking?
103** No real explanation for him not hearing the running, but after locking Bender in the storeroom he goes down into the basement and ends up drinking with Carl while he's down there. Presumably he didn't smell the pot or hear all the noises because he was still in the basement.
104** In deleted scenes, there were two other teachers at the school that day; for social studies and gym. So in that scenario, he might attribute it to other people moving around the school.
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106* On a more trivial note, what the fuck did Allison put on her sandwich?
107** Sugar/pixie sticks and Captain Crunch cereal.
108*** Yummy!
109*** I always thought that she also dribbled a bit of her soda on it from the straw, to make it less crunchy.
110*** I thought she put the straws in her soda to give it a more pixie stick taste.
111** Captain Crunch? I thought it was Corn Pops.
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113* What's with Emilio Estevez dancing while baked? Who in the hell is that active while high?
114** Some people like to move while high; it's not just a mental buzz, you know. And the character was a very physical person anyway who had been more or less forced to sit still for the previous four hours getting more frustrated and twitchy.
115** Yeah, but is anybody really that coordinated while they're high? I kept expecting him to trip or fall over, or whatever.
116*** It takes more than a small joint to turn a physically adept athlete into a [[Film/ReeferMadness bumbling idiot.]] That only happens in bad PSAs.
117** It also has different effects on different people.
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119* Bender is a bully. He humiliates Claire, subjects her to sexual taunting, and makes her cry. Am I supposed to be happy that they end up together? We heard all about his home life and saw firsthand how he treats a girl he eventually decides he likes. The kid clearly needs some reprogramming in that department before he starts dating.
120** Do they really “end up together”? Claire is obviously using Bender to get back at her dad, and he realizes this. It isn’t supposed to end with their marriage. I do think that Bender genuinely likes Claire though, even in the beginning it’s clear there was attraction.
121** I thought a lot of things about the movie were believable, but not something to be happy about. And I thought that was more or less the point. For example, Emilio Estevez only likes weird girl after she gets a makeover - indicating, first, that he's too shallow to care about anything besides looks, and second, he's willing to ignore her extremely bizarre behaviors (which would signal, to most people, some major mental instability, which is generally a turnoff) just because she suddenly looks nice. Is that relationship going anywhere good? Presumably she's still just as batshit crazy. And as for Bender...again, emotionally vulnerable girls hooking up with emotionally abusive, but attractively cool, guys is old news. Again, maybe the audience was supposed to find it a feel-good ending, but I saw it as a dark and very believable conclusion, at least the John and Claire thing.
122*** I agree on one, disagree on the other. Andy clearly likes Allison from the get-go. It's not uncommon for jocks or the popular kids to be attracted to the quirky girl but are afraid to say anything because they think their friends will laugh (remember that bit in Juno?). He often smiles at what she does, goes out of his way to speak to her, and is definitely the nicest to her over anyone else. He's the first (and, really, only) person to show an interest in her personal life. I think that's why Allison likes him: because he didn't ignore her. As for why he likes her, I assume it's because she seems to think for herself, something he's well aware he can't do. I always assumed Allison's way of dressing was about hiding while simultaneously drawing attention to herself, and not so much to do with it being a statement. His comment about her looks is that he can see her face--you know, she's not hiding. I think what Allison was wearing was the shirt she had beneath her jacket. All she did was take off her many layers, pull her hair back, and allow make-up to be put on. Still, I don't think he would have pursued her if she didn't look acceptable as a date to his father and friends. I do agree this movie doesn't have a feel-good, happily-ever-after ending, even if it thinks it does. Which becomes especially apparent with Claire and Bender (splitting this long-winded lecture):
123*** >>> Yes, some people are hell-bent to see SlapSlapKiss anywhere, but he was nothing but cruel to her and she was nothing but condescending to him. Her "nice" moments to him weren't anything better than anything between the Brain, the Jock, or the Basket-Case. The fact that they ended up together seemed trite, if you're going for the normal moral-of-the-day. If you're going for the "They didn't learn anything" one, it makes sense: she's using the bad boy to get back at her parents, just as Bender suggests. He might honestly like her, but I don't see her really liking him. Even if they do, I only see it being an abusive and miserable relationship.
124** Reminds me of this [[http://www.cracked.com/article_18435_5-movie-romances-that-wont-last-according-to-science_p2.html Cracked article.]] And yes, this is a link to a Cracked article on a TV Tropes page... you're not getting any work done today.
125** The reasons for Bender's cruelty to Claire were likely bitterness (he's pissed that she has everything and he has nothing), ignorance (she's the popular one and popular people are by default assholes) and to a lesser extent boredom (well how else is he supposed to spend a whole Saturday at school?). Once those issues cleared up and they had bonded they were able to comprehend their mutual attraction. Would it last? Depends on your perspective. Do the kids come out of the library changed or do they leave the exact same and follow in their parents' footsteps? If its the latter than Bender would be an abusive prick just like his old man and Claire would be his petty wife. Made for each other...
126** The problem is that they never really forge a connection. They don't ease up on each other towards the end of the movie, even once Bender starts being a bit decent to everyone else. Their last conversation is just a vitriolic as their first. The new information changes nothing about the way they interact with each other at all. ''That's'' the issue. We have no indication he'll be any less abrasive and abusive to her in a relationship than he was when he barely knew her.
127** The OP isn't alone in this feeling. John Hughes nearly fired Judd Nelson because he insisted on staying in character both on and off camera, continuously bullying Molly Ringwald the entire time.
128
129* What bugs me is the fact that the people who hate Allison's [[UnnecessaryMakeover Unnecessary Makeover]] think that Andy only likes her because she gets one. It's evident in the movie that he was attracted to her way before that happened. The makeover may have not suited Allison, but it showed her face more. Andy probably thought she was cute, but couldn't really her face properly because she was hiding under big bangs, but this makeover made Andy see her face a lot clearer and it's implied that he's amazed by what he saw. He even said, "I can see your face," and that it's a "good thing." The fans of this movie [[MisaimedFandom miss the point]] of that scene.
130** Agreed. It is supremely ironic that the fans who criticize that scene are apparently unable to see past appearances...
131** The thing is that they could have done the makeover without erasing completely her personality away. I, for one, appreciate that they remove her makeup instead of adding more (I like make up BTW; but I like the metaphor of leaving her face clean). And it's the same thing with the hair (showing her face up instead of hiding it), but the pink shirt, I didn't like. Again, I don't mind the color per se, just the meaning behind it. Every character in the movie has colors that represent them and hers is black. They gave her a pink shirt (Claire's color) and with that, they transform her into a princess. That ruined the "don't hide yourself" meaning for me and changed it into [[ChangingYourselfForLove "if you want to get a jock, you have to become a princess"]]. If they have give her a white shirt, the metaphor would have worked better, for me at least.
132** The above statement is pretty much the main problem. It's not so much that Andy only liked her after the make over, it's that she felt she had to completely change herself in order to attract him. Agreed, that is properly a case of RealityIsUnrealistic, but still.
133*** Am I the only one who's remembering the fact that Allison was wearing a white dress by the end of the film?
134*** Yes, it's just you. The sleeveless blouse she's wearing is light pink, so it looks white (thank you, Netflix). She is wearing it while Claire is putting her "new" makeup on her, so it's a fair assumption she was wearing the blouse under her black clothes.
135*** But that isn't the case, nor has it ever been. Andy ''did'' show a lot of interest in Allison. He was the only one who did, actually. It's quite possible that he would never have worked up the courage to talk to be seen with her if she didn't make herself presentable by his friends' standards, but he clearly liked her before. As mentioned in the main article, Allison is a closet AttentionWhore. She doesn't dress like that because it helps her identify with other people, the way most loner cliques work, she dresses like that because she wants people to notice her, but not approach. Her dressing in white and tucking back her hair is her acknowledging that she does crave human interaction. It's entirely possible Andy recognized that, since he was fairly astute about other things in her life.
136** Agreed with this. When they go to get drinks for the class, Andy has already shown an interest in Allison.
137
138* Principal Asswipe. Who the hell gives a kid TWO MONTHS of detention just for talking back, bullies him to tears, and then threatens to BEAT HIM? How does this guy still have a job? At this point the principal is just punishing Bender for existing, as nothing he does(as far as the principal sees)is bad enough to justify being locked in a closet and threatened with physical violence. I get that he's fed up with Bender's constant misbehavior, but aren't teachers supposed to help kids? I suppose discipline is easier than therapy (especially in the 80's), but Bender obviously needs help, not constant punishment.
139** Speaking as a teacher myself, I can definitely understand why the teacher in the movie was so harsh on Bender, even if I was appalled by it. Bender is a troublemaker, and sometimes it's ''really damn hard'' not to lay into the troublemakers and get really vindictive with them. He was unquestionably wrong to threaten a student, but I can sympathize with his desire to pop Bender in the mouth after he disrespects the teacher right to his face. Now granted he definitely took it way too far and I'm not defending what he did, but you need to look at it from the teacher's perspective. He (probably) doesn't know about Bender's home life. He doesn't know that Bender is being abused at home and he's just acting up to vent his frustrations against his abusive father. Since he doesn't know all those things, to the teacher Bender seems like some stupid punk who disrespects people just because he can. The kind of person who really does deserve a punch in the mouth once in a while. If the teacher knew what Bender was really going through, he might have done something besides act like a hard-nosed disciplinarian. In fact, the teacher's attitude is arguably the point. He's just as much a prisoner of his stereotypical "role" in life as the kids are.
140** When I was in High School, I once saw a teacher give a kid detention for talking in class, and then keep adding more time for every additional word the kid said in answer to the teacher's questions (stuff like "Do you understand" and "Are you done?")until the kid finally figured out the game and just nodded or shook his head in answer. Any position of authority will attract those who go nuts with authority, and teachers frequently have to put up with a lot of aggravation. Those two elements can make for a seriously bad combination.
141*** Pre-service teacher here. Surely SOMEONE in the entire teaching faculty would have figured it out, or at least suspected it. Once you know that he's being abused, all his behaviour makes ridiculous amounts of sense; I find it difficult to believe that not one of the teachers in the entire school has even considered the possibility. I know it's difficult to pick up on subtle things like that when you're trying to keep a whole (probably large) class on topic and under control, and if anyone's going to pick up on it, it wouldn't be the principal, but come on guys! Just look at his face whenever someone tells him he's worthless. And it's not like they're very strict about the "don't touch the students EVER" thing either. Nobody's realized that he flinches away from physical contact with authority figures? HOW DO YOU MISS THAT, THAT'S THE FIRST THING YOU LOOK FOR! Maybe they didn't know about that stuff in the 80's...?
142*** To the contrary, the 80's was when they really started emphasizing that stuff.
143*** That, and it's just a sad fact of life that some teachers just don't care enough about their students to work more than they have to for them. You'll never get a raise for getting nosy about some delinquent kid no one expects anything from.
144*** It might not be that they don't care. It may just be that Bender's case slipped through the cracks. It happens sometimes. Child abuse wouldn't happen if the abusers weren't any good at hiding their tracks or discrediting the victim.
145*** I don't mean to disrespect the Teacher's assessment on Vernon, but there are a few holes in that assessment. Speaking as both a former high school student and a fan of the film, I was shocked that Vernon threatened to beat him senseless. However he implied that no one would believe Bender except maybe the rest of the kids. Though his threats were wrong like you said, there were some truth to them. That was the first hole. The second hole is that he is perfectly aware that Bender has a screwy home life, otherwise his "What if your home what if your Family.....what if your dope was on fire?" He just either doesn't care or is sick and tired of Bender after probably years of him being a jerk in school. Finally the reason why he even threatened Bender at the end was, that Bender running around the hallways singing was the last straw for him. What he didn't know was that Bender was distracting him so the other kids could get back to the library and off Scott free. Had he known that Bender did something for someone else other than just himself; he wouldn't condone it but would respect him a lot more for his selflessness.
146*** These days, though, you're likely to get a mouthful of "HOW DARE YOU TELL ME HOW TO RAISE MY CHILD".
147*** In no way defending Vernon or his actions, but from his demeanor throughout the film one gets the impression that he's seriously burned out. If he was ever invested as an educator, he isn't anymore. I expect his bit with threatening to beat Bender is at least partially fueled by his frustration, and being sick to death of him and kids like him. He doesn't have it in him anymore to care about what Bender's issues might be, if he ever did.
148
149* Brian's parents. Not to be nitpicky here, but whatever [[ThePlan plan they got up their sleeve]] [[InsaneTrollLogic just won't fly]], [[HilariousInHindsight especially nowadays]]. I'm assuming they want him to have perfect grades to get into an Ivy League college, but there's a lot of problems with their methods. They don't really seem to care if he actually does get the grades; more reason to push him harder. [[ItsAllAboutMe They seem totally indifferent]] [[TheSociopath to whatever emotional suffering he's probably going through]], and I wouldn't be surprised their treatment of him was all [[ForTheEvulz For the Evulz]], considering their plans have no valid basis in reality.
150** Wasn't this kind of the point of the subplot about Brian's parents?
151** You think that sort of environment wasn't common? Isn't common? I saw plenty of kids have lives just like that. I almost did too, but I did get compassion too. Also, why do you say they don't really care if he gets the grades? And in the 80s (and 90s), you *could* get into college on the basis of academic excellence. (I did.)
152*** Exactly. There were just ''way fewer young people'' in TheEighties. I'm a few years younger, middle of Generation X, and every classroom I was ever in from kindergarten to senior year, public schools in two different districts and catholic school in between, the last two rows were empty. Not a DyingTown either.
153** Still, mental cruelty is mental cruelty, bar none.
154** There are more than a few parents out there who see their children as lazy slackers who need to be driven- or who refuse to face a reality where their children don't succeed. If they don't get the grades, it's always their fault. If they take a minute off to relax, they're wasting time they should be using to study. The children often end up hating their parents, and the parents are often blind to how their children are feeling and dealing with the stress. It happens.
155*** Most likely Brian's parents were narcissists who were living vicariously through their sons academic success. If the illusion of perfection is cracked, they crack.
156** Another interpretation: Brian's clothes, the K-car his mother drives, the "white trash" way she sounds when she speaks, and the general shabbiness he carries with him indicate that his family doesn't have much money. I always read the pressure his parents put on him to succeed academically, while misguided, happens because they want him to go to college and have a better future. The only way he's going to be able to go to college is on an academic scholarship, because he's not athletic and his parents can't pay for it. Also, while there's some emotional abusiveness toward Brian, he puts some of the pressure on himself because he understands this, and it's his "ticket" away from his home life.
157
158* What year in school are they supposed to be in?
159** We see 4 of the 5 (excluding Bender), being driven. This possibly implies they haven't turned 16 yet (making them most likely freshman/sophomores.) Bender takes himself, but whether that is because of neglect on his parents part, or him being older than the rest, I don't know. (considering his rebellious, slacker attitude, it is likely he failed at least one grade
160** I can't answer for Claire, but in my state anyway, a parent or guardian has to teach the kid how to drive. Allison's parents don't care enough to teach her, Brian's parents refuse because not allowing him a car limits his mobility and gives them more control over him, and Andy and Bender can't afford to buy a car/their parents can't afford to buy them cars.
161** Claire being driven fits the princess archetype, based on that logic. It might not happen in real life, but fiction sometimes sacrifices realism for character development. This would show her "pampered" lifestyle. As a minimum, it serves to contrast her parental relationship from the other characters. Although her parents can afford to buy her a car, they want to go and be involved in her life... or the dad is doing it to get back at the mom (as Claire expands on earlier in the film). He's competing for her affection. I had no idea a parent/guardian teaching you to drive was a thing in America?
162*** American kids typically get a learner's permit (meaning you can drive a car ''if'' an adult relative or guardian is in the passenger seat to supervise) at fifteen. Your folks take you out to an empty parking lot or unused stretch of back road, and talk you through the basics of operating the family car. Drivers' education class teaches you the rules of the road, how to deal with emergencies, etc. After you've turned 16, passed the course, ''and'' had X many hours of practice at driving with parental supervision (X depending on the state you're in), you can take the written and road tests for a driver's license of your own.
163** Considering all of them except Allison have been consigned to detention, I doubt if Claire, Brian or Andy would be ''allowed'' to take the car out themselves. Detention is how the school punishes wrongdoing, but parents generally come down on kids who get in trouble on top of that. "No car use for X weeks" is often part of that, for teens with their own licenses.
164*** In addition, the parents driving them to detention is at least partly to make sure they ''go'' to detention, and don't just drive somewhere else to spend the day doing something else like they might be tempted to do if they were trusted to transport themselves there.
165
166* When Vernon was reading Bender's file, it was implied that his father's abuse towards him was recorded when he said "no wonder he's so messed up." So, if the school knows that Bender's father abuses him, why did nobody do anything about it? I'm sure even Social Services existed in the 80s.
167** Maybe it just fell through the cracks? Also, why wouldn’t the principal be allowed to access files?
168** No the lines actually stating Bender's shown signs of mental instability, that Vernon attribute to him being messed up suggesting he thinks he's crazy, it being the 80's it never occurs to them to wonder why he's like that.
169*** That doesn’t explain why he says “no wonder.”
170** Vernon wasn't reading Bender's file. It was of an unrelated kid named "Mr. Tearney." Possibly a faculty member and not even a student.
171*** Why would he be talking about Mr. Tierney though?
172*** To further establish that he's the kind of a scumbag that would root around the permanent record of anyone for the gossip of it.
173** Why does Vernon feel that his reading the file is something he needs to hide? If he's the principal, wouldn't he have access to all the students' files?
174
175* ''What'' did Claire and Bender do to get detention?
176** Bender pulled the fire alarm as a prank. Not sure about Claire.
177*** Skipped class to go shopping. Her dad says it as he drops her off.
178*** Bender - Fire Alarm, Claire - skipped class, Andrew - taped a kid's bare butt up in gym (the kid lost hair and skin, Brian - had a [[spoiler: signal]] gun in his locker (his dad's) and Allison had nothing better to do (which implies she could have gotten out of it by simply asking why she was in detention).
179* Why does Allison rip a patch off of Andy's jacket after they kiss at the end?
180** She steals a number of things during the movie (like Bender's padlock or Brian's wallet).
181* Given that Claire is wearing a wrap skirt that goes well past her knees, how is Bender (and the camera) able to get a view of her panties when he's hiding under her table?
182** That's actually a really good point. I remember thinking that skirt was hideous, and now that you mention it, it was past the knees. Maybe it had rolled/scrunched up somehow? Re-watching the scene, it doesn't make sense that she would take the ankle length-skirt and pull it above her knees.
183* If Bender is such a bad kid, why did he even show up at school for detention? Yeah, it provided an escape from his abusive household, but no one's holding a gun to his head and forcing him to be there. He could've gone literally anywhere else for the day; a friend's house, the movie theatre, an arcade, or he could've met up with his friends at the park or a rail yard. Heck, he could've even just wandered aimlessly around town until dinner time.
184** Not going to detention results in suspension, i.e. not going to school at all - and it's not implied that Bender's parents take no interest in his life, just the ''wrong'' kind. Him getting suspended could mean him being forced to stay at home, under the same roof as his deadbeat father.
185** Probably he knew his dad would beat the shit out of him if he didn't go.
186* How did Bender not get detention for the rest of his high school career for shouting "FUCK YOU!!!" at Vernon after he left the room? The man gave him two months of Saturday school (though Bender would likely just skip every one of them) just for making fun of his wardrobe and non-vulgar backtalk but Bender shouting an F-bomb him makes him just... stand there for a few seconds? There's no way he didn't hear him because later he hears Bender fall through the ceiling into a second-story room through two closed doors on the first floor.
187** Vernon clearly doesn't want to be spending his entire Saturday at school any more than most of the kids (besides Allison and Bender) do. Bender actually probably ''wouldn't'' skip the detentions since it's heavily implied (and noted several times on this page already) that he uses the detentions as a means to get out of his abusive household, hence why he just keeps going with his comments even with Vernon racking up the punishment. Vernon clearly did hear the shout but by that point, he was in a situation where he could at least [[PlausibleDeniability pretend that he hadn't because of the noise of the door slamming closed]]; the look that he gives indicates that (1) he's aware that he technically lost that particular battle with Bender since obviously the threat of mounting detentions didn't stop him from being disrespectful, (2) he's realising that an increasing amount of time spent in detention is in fact Bender's objective, or (3) potentially some combination of the two. But the bottom line still remains: Vernon clearly does not want his own Saturdays taken up with overseeing detention, especially when it means dealing with someone like Bender; the 2-month batch of detentions are handed out in an attempt to cow Bender into obedience and respect and the "FUCK YOU" only serves to prove that it did not work, so why keep pursuing that particular angle when Bender makes it plain as day that he couldn't care less about getting detention as a form of punishment..?
188** I was under the impression that the unsecured door bang was so loud that it did obscure his exclamation.
189* Also, how did Vernon not smell the weed? There was enough smoke to fog up a small bookroom and the smell would've gotten everywhere once the door was opened plus it would have been stuck to their clothes, especially clinging to wool, cotton, and polar-fleece.
190* What kind of weak stuff was that weed? They smoke it at around 2:00-2:30 pm yet all of them are still able to have emotional conversations, give the goth girl a make-over, and Brian wrote an essay? Plus, they seem to have all sobered up by the time their parents arrive to pick them up. Now this was certainly not Bender's first rodeo with the green ganj and Andrew MIGHT have done it at a party celebrating a winning game, but Claire and Brian are clearly doing it for their very first time. They would've been stoned off their asses and barely capable of conversation for the rest of the day.
191* The whole subplot with Brian's parents. What exactly is their son going to get out of their extreme pressure to make perfect grades? They could have found other ways of encouraging him instead of mental cruelty.
192** They probably saw him as a slacker who needed that pressure to make anything out of himself.
193** TruthInTelevision. Parents like Brian's aren't always reasonable. There are plenty of cases like his in RealLife where parents just don't understand how cruel their levels of pressure ''are''--or who, for any number of reasons, genuinely believe that cruelty is better for their child in the long run.
194** It's also entirely possible that they genuinely don't see it as being cruel at all. After all, we live in a society that tells people that if you work hard and achieve, you can get whatever you want. Obviously that isn't true but it's still something people willingly buy in to, and there are probably thousands of cases of parents who pressured children through school because to them, a higher grade equates to a better future. And who's to say they know they're the root cause of Brian's detention? He was probably pissing himself at the thought of having to tell his parents he'd be spending a Saturday in detention without mentioning what the exact cause of it was...
195** They may also have an over-inflated notion of what it's reasonable to expect of Brian. They know he's smart, they just don't have a realistic sense of precisely ''how'' smart he is - i.e. top 10% of his class level, ''not'' Nobel-winning genius level - or of how intellect, alone, can't always compensate for everything (like a lack of mechanical aptitude when crafting elephant-lamps). For all they know, his schoolwork really ''ought'' to be easy for him.
196* It seems odd that kids in '''detention''' are left entirely unsupervised for large portions of the movie. Even in the mid-1980s.
197** There's nobody there except the kids, Carl and Vernon. Carl has his own job to do and Vernon hates his job--he's there on a Saturday, who wouldn't? But he doesn't care enough to actually do a good job, nor does he care what they get up to. He just wants it to be over so he can go home. The only time he interfered was when he overheard a noise, like Bender falling through the ceiling, or when he caught them in the act, like Bender in the gymnasium.
198** Vernon did the bare minimum by leaving the library door open, which would have allowed him a clear view of the kids from his office if Bender hadn't messed with the door (Bender intimates that he's pulled the same stunt before, so you'd think Vernon would have seen it coming; Vernon also might have had Carl fix the door). As the detention monitor, he should have been in the library with the kids regardless, but given his attitude it's not surprising he blew it off. He didn't want to be there any more than they did.
199* One hates to imagine what further consequences the kids might suffer on Monday. Their detention resulted in considerable damage to the library ceiling and a shattered window in the door to the library's Foreign Languages lab, destroyed books, etc. Allison pitched the contents of a teacher's locker all over the teacher's lounge in a deleted scene (though, being deleted, one might consider it not to have happened, even though she's shown with the Prince album she took from the teacher's locker later in the library). Plus, while Brian's essay is pointed and satisfying, it doesn't fulfill Vernon's instructions (not for Brian, and certainly not for the others), which is likely all Vernon is going to care about. Of course, it's just as likely that Vernon is going to have to answer some uncomfortable questions about just where ''he'' was when the kids were doing all this stuff.
200** With regards to the essay at least, it's unlikely they'll see any consequences for that. Given Brian's description of detention to his mother at the start of the film (that they're supposed to just sit there) and Vernon introduces the essay task with calling it "something a little different", writing an essay is not an official aspect of detention in the first place and more just a completely superfluous task Vernon himself decided to set them purely on a whim, probably because he imagined it might keep them quiet, and this is {{Lampshaded}} in Brian's final essay when he points out that Vernon doesn't care about who they think they are because he's already labelled them. Note how, despite clearly none of them ever doing any work on their essays whenever he comes into the room, he never once tells them to get on with writing it or demands to see their progress which makes it even more clear that this isn't an official task and more a "this is how I suggest you spend the time" thing.
201* While there's obvious symbolism in the layers of clothes the kids are wearing (note that Claire wears the least number of layers; note that Andy strips down to just his blue tank-top and jeans when he gets high, note that after Allison's makeover, when she and Andy face each other, they're both wearing the least amount of layers that they have in the whole film; note that, at movie's end, Andy has given Allison his hoodie and she pulls a patch off of his letterman's jacket)the kids must have been roasting. The film is set in late March which, while likely cool, would not have required the layer-upon-layer of clothes and heavy coats (Andy and Bender both have at least 4 layers if you include their coats) the kids were wearing. They all look like they're dressed for the dead of winter.
202** Even late March can have very cold days in the Chicago area. Weather Underground records indicate that the average temperature on that day was around 37 degrees and a few days earlier the temperature had reached 0 degrees. People who live in cold areas tend to dress in layers and for warmth because it's much easier to take off a layer than to just be cold.

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