Line #36 Headscratchers/PrincessMononoke


1	* If the curse started and spread from Ashitaka's arm, why couldn't they just cut it off?
2	** I imagine that the Wise Woman asked her magic rocks that very question, and the answer was "Nope. It doesn't work that way." The curse is probably in his blood by that point. (Also, it's magic. It doesn't need to make sense.)
3	** Plus, would you REALLY want to cripple your last prince?
4	** Ashitaka is seeking to lift the curse without having to die, or cut off his own arm. Also he might not want to admit it to himself, but having a cursed but super strong arm has its advantages.
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6	* What was the point of forbidding Ashitaka from returning to his hometown ever again? Temporary exiling him while he's under the curse is understandable so as to prevent him from infecting/harming others in the village as what happened with Nago but permanent exile? Seems pretty harsh, especially considering Ashitaka only became cursed in the first place because he tried to defend his people as opposed running away and even then he tried to pacify Nago at first only going for a kill shot when the boar was about to trample his sister Kaya. Not to mention he's also the tribe's prince making him an essential figure in the village, so why exile him?
7	** Several things. First, the mountain people are isolated and do not want to be found, and so allowing Ashitaka to come back may bring the troubles of the outside world back in. Second, there is no expectation that he will succeed in removing the curse; as the prince, he must take responsibility by going away to die, not to burden the village with his problems. Third, any chance of removing the curse will depend on him fulfilling some kind of spiritual journey, to understand and confront the root of Nago's hate. Essentially, allowing Ashitaka to return on any condition makes it harder for the village (which would not be able to properly grieve or decide its future path) and for Ashitaka (who would be tempted to return home if things got too hard or he fell into despair).
8	** Traditions aren't always fair. Kaya realizes this, which is why she breaks the law to give Ashitaka the crystal dagger. Ashitaka understands too, which is why he accepts the dagger. So if the "never return" rule seems a little extreme, maybe that's because it ''is'' a little extreme. One of the themes of this movie is that no culture is perfect.
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10	* While it is stressed that San sees herself as a wolf, an equal to her siblings, she treats them an awful lot like house dogs with all the scratching behind the ears bit. It seems like she sees herself in the dominant side of the master/pet relationship.
11	** This Troper saw it more as a sign of affection, after all- it doesn't seem like they ''dislike'' the feeling, and if they like it, well... Honestly, I saw it more like when you give your friend a back rub or something. (Okay, bad example, but still...)
12	** Friendly touch is very important for most mammals. Wolves constantly nuzzle and rub each other. San is doing the human equivalent to them. Not to mention that they must be really grateful that she can so masterfully scratch them in places they have really hard time reaching.
13	** They might see her as an older sister. Even among siblings it is not uncommon for one to be more dominant and assertive than another, usually along age or gender lines.
14	** I saw it that way too. I mean she does even tell them what to do at times (like not killing Ashitaka or eating his elk, leaving those monkeys alone and other parts of the movie.) I didn't see it as her being their "Superior" or something. Just an older sister. She was very affectionate with them, and they do respect and cherish her.
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16	* I realize that there's a whole lot of gray in this movie, but I need to know whether or not there was any one side they wanted us to root for. It wasn't like ''Film/{{Avatar}}'' where the Na'vi were supposed to be the heroes, I just rooted for the humans of Iron Town to come out on top.
17	** The fact that the protagonist, Ashitaka, steadfastly refuses to pick sides indicates which side Miyazaki wanted the audience to take as well.
18	** I don't think there was a side you were "supposed" to root for, no. And I liked the movie all the more for it.
19	** As far as I can tell, the point of the story is that it is entirely possible for different cultures to live in harmony with each other, without war to determine a 'winner.' In that sense, I don't think you should root for anyone. The closest thing to a villain is Jigo, and his motives are understandable...
20	** No, you weren't supposed to root for either side. Everyone is portrayed as having the potential to be bloodthirsty or have an ounce of kindness. Even the forest harbours [[IrrationalHatred irrational (but somewhat understandable) hatred]] for the humans. This explains how even the merciful Boar who pardoned and thank the protagonist for the truth becomes consumed by his demons. Even so the forest reveals it kind side when it willingly guides the protagonist and two wounded man across. Note the scene where two woman are willing to meet Princess Mononoke to avenge their fallen husbands. Everyone can have a sympathetic side.
21	** Out of curiosity, why does someone ''have'' to be the villain? Why does someone ''need'' to be the cut-and-dry bad guy with a big neon sign over their head flashing VILLAIN? The vast majority of real people don't fit that mold. There are good and bad people on every side of the line. Most people are on the side they're on because they believe, for whatever reason, they're in the right. Soldiers don't fight in wars [[ForTheEvulz because it's fun]], they fight because they believe they're on the right side.\
22	And, sort of related, I'm also curious as to why you decided that the people to root for were the ones who deliberately started a war and knowingly attempted to commit ''genocide''.
23	*** Who said that someone needs to be a cut-and-dry bad guy? Reminding us that the real world isn't like that is kind of Creator/HayaoMiyazaki's ''thing''.
24	*** Don't forget they [[spoiler: successfully]] attempted '''''deicide!'''''
25	*** Close - what they DID was trap the Shishigami halfway between its normal form and the Daidarabotchi form. This turned it into a Tartarigami, who killed and destroyed everything in its path seeking out its head. By the time Ashitaka returned its head, the forest that sustained it was dead - killed off not by the humans, but its own rampage, and it self-destructed.
26	*** Um, pretty sure they weren't talking about that. Are you forgetting that they [[spoiler:killed the wolf]]?'
27	*** It could be said that Moro (and Ottoko, and their people) were actually "minor spirits", different from [[spoiler:the Shishigami (Who, in turn, shows actual godly powers)]]. That's because the word "kami" can be used either to name spirits or to name gods.
28	*** There's a difference between "I want to divide the entire world into good guys and bad guys!" and "I want to understand the shape of this conflict." FWIW, I think that what Miyazaki was trying to get across was that the humans ''started'' the conflict, in over-hunting the spirits and over-exploiting the earth, but that the spirits' escalation and increased depravity was also to blame.
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30	* After viewing the movies a few more times, I made this interesting observation: Irontown doesn't seem to have children. I suppose the reason behind it is that the men and women are too busy with their jobs whether it's in the industrial town or outside and there were higher priorities, and Lady Eboshi built her town by recruiting so there wasn't a need to reproduce (or because it would just be a burden to them). What do other tropers have to say or speculate about this?
31	** Despite the fact that it was well-developed, Irontown seemed to me to be a very young town, with little security. Note how they were constantly under the threat of invasion due to their iron supply, to say nothing of the constant attacks on their husbands by Moro and her children. There probably wasn't really much of a chance for anyone to settle down and have kids. [[spoiler: When their town gets rebuilt, perhaps...]] Of course, this may also be a case of HideYourChildren, as many children would probably inevitably have been killed by [[spoiler: the Forest Spirit's toxic ooze]], and that probably would have made the movie even darker than it already was.
32	** It is strongly implied lady Eboshi and her soldiers came in quite recently, nor longer than maybe a year. And before she showed in, they were under constant siege and assaults, not winning a single one. Not the best place to have kids. In the end the town is destroyed and will take some time to rebuild - again, not the best time to have kids.
33	*** Worth pointing out that most of the villagers in Irontown seem to be women (remember how they reacted to Ashitaka?), so they probably wouldn't be able to have enough kids anyway.
34	** If memory serves, a lot of the women in Irontown were prostitutes, so, maybe some of 'em can't have children or, perhaps, they weren't that interested in doing the nasty.
35	** Miyazaki did give an answer on this. At first, he said he [[ShrugOfGod "forgot to draw them in".]] But, looking at the scene where Ashitaka is buying rice in the other town, there ''are'' children drawn in, so, I don't know why he said that. He later changed his answer. ^^^ Is pretty much right on the money. Irontown is a young town, and due to its constant feudal state, it really isn't the best place or time to have children. But, it is confirmed that once the town settles down more, many children will be born there.
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37	* San sees herself as a wolf, but that cape she wears and the fur on her mask look awfully like wolf fur. To her, wouldn't that be the equivalent to GenuineHumanHide?
38	** It probably ''is'' wolf fur... that her mom, brothers and other wolves shed and had it made into the cape and the mask somehow. So it's more like wearing a wig.
39	** Well, San was literally RaisedByWolves so her values would differ from a human's. What would be the equivalent of desecration of the dead and Squick to humans, San would see as being pragmatic and using fur and skin that would otherwise rot away. She may even see herself as carrying the dead wolf's spirit on, especially if the wolf was killed by humans.
40	** We never do see any sign of a father wolf...
41	** Some speculate it is from a dead sibling, perhaps the original [[MeaningfulName San]]. If you look closely, the cape ''has a tail''. But, in reality, [[Creator/StudioGhibli they]] probably chose it because [[RuleOfCool it looks cool]].
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43	* Ashitaka shouts that the Shishigami's head "must be returned by human hands." How does he know this? Did he major in Things That Have Never Happened Before 101 at Indigenous Peoples University?
44	** First: thank you for making me laugh. Second: I'm assuming that he just kind of went with the idea that because human hands took the head, human hands had to return it to calm the spirit down, as an apology and a symbol that they realized that they had done wrong and wanted to make up for it. Maybe it was necessary, maybe it wasn't, but it seems like a probable assumption and the end of the world isn't something you want to take chances with.
45	** [[IJustKnew He Just Knew]].
46	** Well, to be fair, his tribe does seem to know a bit about that sort of esoteric knowledge. Hiding for 500 years will do that.
47	** It depends on what he meant. He could have meant it in a ''moral'' sense; humans created this problem so now humans have to solve it. And if he meant it in a magical sense (i.e. if human hands don't return the head then it can't be reattached), then in that case he didn't "know" anything. He was just guessing.
48	** It seems likely that his tribe knows the rules and protocols for interacting with the spirit world (we see him going through what looks like extensive ritual dialogs before killing the corrupted boar god, say.) Even if he doesn't know an exact standard protocol for when a god's head gets cut off, the stories he was raised on could give him a general sense of it - eg. emphasizing the idea that humans are judged as a group and must work to resolve problems other humans have caused; or focusing on when and how spirits become vengeful and what you can do to allay their rage.
49	** It also works on a metaphorical level. The movie can be read as an allegory for the real relationship humans have with nature, and in real life, environmental disasters caused by humans can only be remedied by humans.
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51	* Do San's siblings have names? It's kind of odd that I always have to refer to them as "that wolf" and "that other wolf".
52	** San actually means "Three" in Japanese, so I go with the idea that they are named "Ichi" and "Nii" or "Yon" an "Go" if they're younger.
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54	* Ashitaka is riding on a wolf in the forest when he comes across Eboshi. He gets off and tells the wolf to run ahead and find San. Ashitaka talks to Eboshi for awhile and then runs off to find San on foot. Somehow he gets to San before the wolf does. How does that happen? It's already been established that the wolf is faster than he is, and the wolf surely has a better sense of smell so it shouldn't get lost along the way.
55	** When the wolf finally does show up, there are two of them. Maybe he met his brother on the way? Maybe he needed help?
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57	* San and Ashitaka are riding wolves to confront Jigo and get the Great Forest Spirit's head back. They get off the wolves and San tells the wolves to run away. Why does she say that? You're trying to save the world here; don't you want all the help you can get? Those wolves could've eaten Jigo or whatever.
58	** Considering how close San and the others all were to getting engulfed by the Forest God's Ooze; San was probably right to send them off. That rock wouldn't have held them all.
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60	* Why doesn't Ashitaka go back home when he's healed, if he's the last prince of his tribe. Then doesn't he have a duty to be with them and such?
61	** It appears that he can't. Cutting off his topknot signifies the finality of his exile.
62	** He is exiled permamently. Meaning that even if he is healed, he is still dead to his own people. It's kind of LostInTranslation, as it doesn't make it as explicit as the original. He just can't go back.
63	*** Another troper also brought up that, because of how isolated and secretive the Emishi are, he could end up bringing back troubles from the outside world. That and, since he's dead to them, they won't take him back, he really can't go home again.
64	** As an illustration of ''why'' it is necessary the way others have said, consider Ashitaka's interactions with Jigo. Jigo immediately guesses where he is from, and after that makes a point of asking around about him later on. It's not a stretch to assume that Jigo, who seems fixated on taking advantage of any sort of supernatural stuff he can get his hands on, is interested in finding Ashitaka's village so he can loot it for whatever knowledge of the spirit world his people have. Returning home could give Jigo (and many people like him, who Ashitaka may not even be aware of) more information to go on in terms of finding his village.
65	** If you're talking about the end of the movie, he's in love with San at that point, and obviously he won't ask her to leave her homeland in the forest. He also wants to help out with Irontown and prevent the humans and the forest spirits from going to war again. We also don't know just how important that "last prince" thing is. It could be there's an established method for starting up a new line of princes so the Emishi won't go leaderless.
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67	* Moro explains the reason she doesn't go to the Forest Spirit to heal her bullet wound despite slowly dying is because shes lived long enough and is content to die, however she still intends on killing Lady Eboshi even though her weakened state would make it harder. Why doesn't San who clearly doesn't want her wolf mother to die explain that if she refuses to get healed and dies then Moro may never have her revenge or at least enjoy it if Eboshi was to die by other means?
68	** The problem with Moro having lived a long life is less that she is content to die, though there is an element of that, but rather that Moro is certain that due to her long life, if she asked to be healed, the Forest Spirit would instead take her life.
69	** As Moro is probably keenly aware, the Forest Spirit mercy kills the animal gods that are suffering, as it does to Okkoto. The large piles of bones underneath its tree attests to this. Moro preferred to try to stay alive long enough, despite the pain and suffering, to get revenge on Eboshi.
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71	* When the Apes appear to eat Ashitaka while he's unconscious, why does San prevent them from doing so? She was pissed off at Ashitaka from preventing her from killing Lady Eboshi and didn't see it as him rescuing her, so it definitely wasn't out of gratitude. Hell, she was even about to stab him before he called her beautiful and passed out. Given San's hatred of humans and the apes wanting to eat Ashitaka so that they could gain his strength when the forest was steadily declining due to Irontown, the apes devouring Ashitaka would be one less trouble-making human and an advantage for the forest side, so San defending Ashitaka seems odd.
72	** Killing someone in revenge/anger is extremely different from killing them so you can ''eat them.'' Moro scorns San's biological parents because they threw their own baby at her so they could get away faster, and it's clear that they thought she'd try to eat San. Instead Moro gets offended at their callousness and ''raises the baby as her own,'' so the gods seem to have an implicit standard of "don't (intentionally) eat other sapient beings."
73	** It's implied that the forest spirits weren't always this vicious, and that they only became more aggressive as the conflict with the humans increased. The Apes were supposed to be peaceful spirits who planted seeds so the trees can grow - and San was clearly shocked that they would do something so out of character.
74	** Also, San herself says that eating humans doesn't let gods steal their strength but only turns them into "something else. Something even ''worse'' than human." She doesn't ''say'' demon, but given her [[HumansAreBastards general attitude]] at this point in the movie, there isn't much else that could mean, and a swarm of new demons is literally the ''last'' thing the forest needs right now. Also sheds new light on why Moro was offended at the attempt by San's parents to offer their child as a sacrifice.
75	** I don't know if it's just me but I got the impression that they were somehow aware that apes and humans are closely related, and San was implying that apes eating humans would be almost akin to cannibalism.
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77	* How come San isn't cursed by Okkoto's demon flesh? It's stated several times during the movie that touching it might be enough, and she was completly covered by it. Yet both Ashitaka and Moro act like she can be saved without consequences. And indeed, she doesn't seem to be cursed afterwards.
78	** I just assumed she was released from the curse alongside Ashitaka.
79	** Two possible explanations, aside from the above suggestion:
80	*** Okkoto's curse was "young" compared to Naguo's and might not yet have been as infectious or dangerous to others. The curse had not affected Okkoto for long by the time San is rescued, as opposed to Nagu whose curse had festered for possibly weeks or months when he attacked Ashitaka's village.
81	*** Since the curse is born of hate, and Okkoto considers San a friend, it might have spared her at least as long as Okkoto had some sense in him and had not completely succumbed to the curse and become a demon. It might have been more dangerous to those he hated - Irontowners or Jigo's warriors.
82	*** Nago seemed to have actively cursed Ashitaka, even in death, so there seems to be some element of intentionality in it, with Okkoto only cursing those he considered enemies.
83	** She ''is'' cursed - you can see she has the same rash as Ashitaka spreading across her arms when the two of them return the Forest God's head. However, by pulling her out, they at least same her from becoming part of the tatarigami that Okkoto was becoming.
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85	* Why did they change Ashitaka's betrothed into his little sister for the dub?
86	** I don't recall the original ever indicating that she was his betrothed. As I understand it, the change was that in Japanese she refers to him as a "brother" in a metaphorical sense, while the dub gives the impression that they're biologically brother and sister. But it wasn't romantic in either version.
87	** ^[[Franchise/{{Danganronpa}} No, that's wrong!]] The documentary 'This is How Princess Mononoke was Born' has Miyazaki explaining to the voice actors for Ashitaka and Kaya(/San) that this is just how they refer to each other in their village, and that Kaya ''was'' his bride-to-be. 'Brother' is more of a term of endearment in this case. He clearly states they are/were betrothed to each other. In fact, in Emishi tradition girls gave a dagger to their future husband on the day of their wedding. This also indicates that Kaya will never take another husband. But to answer the original question, it was probably just easier, and maybe made it less weird for Ashitaka to have a similar implied romantic relationship with San.

Context Headscratchers / PrincessMononoke