Line #26 Headscratchers/PeterPan


1	!!Disney movie
2	* Was Neverland really AllJustADream? It seems that way, until Mr darling sees the ship and claims that it looks familiar... until it breaks apart in the wind.
3	** Your Mind Makes It Real? Isn't Neverland created by the stories and dreams of children? Just because it's a dream, doesn't mean it wasn't real. Alternately, Wendy was dropped off and waited up for her parents - but just dozed off at the window.
4	** The sequel seems to confirm it on the surface. Then again WordOfGod says it's not canon because the sequel was not produced by the Walt Disney Animation Studios, but rather the now-defunct [=DisneyToons=] studio.
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6	* How persistent is the ability to fly given by fairy dust? Everyone except Peter seems to forget about it instantly as soon as they reach Neverland, even in situations when it would be useful.
7	** It seems to last only long enough to get to or from Neverland. Note that the Lost Boys are all ground-bound (this is in sharp contrast to the Fox series, where Peter, the kids, and the Lost Boys all fly routinely).
8	** Maybe they just forget because it's not something they can normally do? Like when you're used to driving alone so you forget that you can go in the carpool lane when you have someone else in the car with you.
9	** Wendy flies with Peter just after they have rescued Tiger Lily. Happy thoughts is probably the key. Like when they're on Captain Hook's ship, they're probably all too terrified of what's going to happen to them. Peter is able to fly because he sees the whole thing as an adventure and thus rescuing the others is fun to him.
10	** But watch closely after Wendy's ordeal with the mermaids, and after Peter rescues Tiger Lily. Wendy had to resort to flapping her arms to take off. None of them had to do so the first time they flew. It's entirely possible that the pixie dust had worn off by the ending.
11	*** And the carefree, impulsive Lost Boys can't fly under normal circumstances because they're too busy ''having'' happy experiences to bother ''thinking'' about them.
12	** The fact that the kids can't fly when being forced to walk the plank on the pirate ship is indeed a huge headscratcher. Having their hands tied shouldn't matter, as they don't usually need to make any specific movements to fly. Not even Peter himself is immune to this: in the sequel, he is tied to an anchor and nearly forced off the plank. And if you think the anchor is too heavy for him: after he's freed and the danger is over, he cheerfully lifts the anchor and yells: "Hey Hook, you forgot your anchor!" before dropping it on him.
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14	* Was the time different in Neverland? Wendy and the boys were there for well over a day and yet they got home safely before their parents arrived. Their parents would have only been gone at the party for a few hours.
15	** This appears to be an invention of the film, since in the book they're gone for a while, and their parents are worried sick about them. The film suggests that Neverland could be just a dream of Wendy's. Or it might be like [[Literature/TheChroniclesOfNarnia Narnia]], where it's a YearInsideHourOutside.
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17	* If Captain Hook is a manifestation of the father, and the father went with Peter Pan when he was a boy and recognizes the pirate ship, did the father have to deal with a version of himself, or was Captain Hook based on his father when he went?
18	** Then again, the fact that Mr. Darling both sounds and resembles Captain Hook might have been Wendy subconsciously associating her father's antagonism toward her and her stories with Hook's vendetta against Peter Pan.
19	** That Captain Hook is a manifestation of the father because Wendy and her mother were telling the story. I believe (based on how much I've seen the movie and what I know from other versions and the original story) that Peter Pan only exists because of the stories told. So, if the father had known Peter Pan as a child it would have been based on the stories that were told to him. Captain Hook was probably a different person, maybe his own father or the mean man down the street or the school headmaster or somebody. Though this could just be [[WildMassGuessing WMG]].
20	*** When George Darling was in Neverland, [[Literature/PeterAndTheStarcatchers Captain Hook was Black Stache]]. Nah nah...more likely Captain Hook was a SadistTeacher, since he used to be a schoolteacher in the original version if I recall.
21	*** No, Hook was never a schoolteacher -- if we go by the original book, at least, the pirate who's an ex-schoolteacher is Gentleman Starkey (incidentally the only pirate apart from Smee to survive the final battle).
22	*** In a case of Death by Adaptation, Starkey doesn't survive the Disney version.
23	*** Yes he does - Return to Neverland has a pirate who looks identical to Starkey, almost certainly him. He's the guy with a knife in his mouth. Of course, which of the pirates survived Return to Neverland is completely up for grabs.
24	*** He gets thrown in the water but we don't know if he drowns or not.
25	** Hook isn't actually supposed to be a "manifestation of the father"; that's just a rumor that got started because it's tradition for Hook and Mr. Darling to be played by the same guy in the stageplay. (Initially, J. M. Barrie wanted Hook to be played by the same actor who portrayed ''Mrs'' Darling.)
26	*** And in the 1924 adaptation, which was personally overseen by him, Hook and Mr Darling are played by different actors.
27	** The sequel hints that Hook was based on Mr. Darling's father, possibly. While they aren't voiced by the same actor, Hook and Jane's father Edward are similar in that they try to entice Jane into being too grown-up for things like stories, fun, and games. Said enticing was obviously less malicious in her father's case, but they're both still responsible for the character flaw Jane needs to overcome by the end of the film.
28	** Here's a neat psychological analysis of the idea; Neverland is essentially created by children's stories and beliefs. It's like when one reads a book and pictures the characters a different way to how someone else might. Wendy pictures her own father when imagining Captain Hook, because he's often the villain in real life putting a stop to the children's fun and insisting they act more grown up. Peter Pan and the Lost Boys are FreeRangeChildren who get to do whatever they want all the time, and no one tells them what to do. Hook meanwhile is the predatory adult who keeps interrupting their fun by trying to kill them. In both situations, the children have a special place where they play all their games. George's inciting incident is telling Wendy that she has to leave the nursery (specifically to put a stop to their games), while Hook's plan is to find the hideout and kidnap them.
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30	* In ''Return to Neverland'', what happened to the crocodile? Did Hook kill it offscreen? Because if everyone else in Neverland is still alive and as young as they were before, there's no real reason for the crocodile to have passed on.
31	** At one point while complaining about the octopus, if memory serves me right, he says something along the lines "I finally manage to get rid of that crocodile, and then that thing shows up."
32	** Why is this such a mystery to some people? It's a crocodile. It can't be that hard to kill.
33	*** I think it's a mystery of why it was replaced at all. The crocodile was iconic.
34	*** Iconic or no, it wasn't really capable of doing all of the things the octopus does in the sequel, like destroying Hook's ship. There's just a lot more potential in what a giant octopus can be made to do; not to mention the basic premise of a man-eating octopus is inherently more comedic than a man-eating crocodile.
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36	* Exactly how long has Peter been in Neverland? He could be older than Hook, or ReallySevenHundredYearsOld for all we know.
37	** It was mentioned in the book, as well as certain film adaptions, that he'd overheard his mother talking about him getting a job in an office or court, so presumably it couldn't have been too long ago.
38	** Peter also has a MultipleChoicePast (in his first appearance in JM Barrie's short stories, he was half-bird), and Neverland seems to dull the perception of time and memory, so he probably doesn't even know how old he is.
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40	* In the second film, how does Jane manage to reach the pirate ship, let alone climb aboard and make her way up one of the masts without being seen?
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42	* Why does Tinker Bell draw out the path to Peter's hideout on Hooks map instead of just give him a more personal escort? Given that Tink was acting rather suspicious that Hook was gonna use the moment to harm Pan, leading him to the hideout in person would ensure that she keeps an eye on Hook and his pirates to make sure they don't do anything to Peter (even leaving a bomb disguised as a present). I don't know how Hook would have circumvented this problem, other than trap Tink in the glass lantern once they get to hangman's tree. (so story-wise this wouldn't have altered THAT much)
43	** He's a pirate. He's used to having to read a map to get anywhere. And while the movie doesn't say that it's as in the book, where fairies are so small they only have room for one emotion at a time, Tinkerbell's angry jealousy might be fading and she may be already starting to feel bad about selling Peter out.
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45	* What's the explanation for Tink's sudden recovery in the Disney film?
46	** [[AWizardDidIt She's magic]]. Because this is Disney, [[{{Handwaved}} we let it go]]. It looks like Peter's words to Tinker Bell restored her HeroicResolve and helped her get going again, though.
47	** It would have been odd don't you think for a animated movie to ask for children/families watching the movie in movie theatres of the 50s to clap their hand right?
48	*** I never insinuated otherwise. Just asking if there was supposed to be some alternative explanation, is all.
49	** Was she ever sick in the Disney movie? She got sick in the book because someone fed her bad medicine but no one gave her medicine in the movie. Yes, she's tinkling faintly but she's under a bunch of stuff and far away. Yes, Peter thinks she might die, but a bomb just exploded.
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51	* As much as I love the sequel, why does Hook have to go looking for Peter's hideaway again, when he already found out where it was in the first film, and Peter appears to still be living in the same place here? Did Hook forget its location since then, or did the bomb he left in the first film demolish the place, and Peter managed to find another one that looked exactly like it?
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53	* Sooo, does Hook not know that people age normally on the mainland? He does understand the concept of growing up, so why did he think Wendy would still be a child when he mistook Jane for her?
54	** It's probably like how, when we meet somebody after years of absence, we're surprised by how they've aged even though we know that that's how people work. I suspect that seeing somebody who looked that much like Wendy instinctively felt right, and he didn't think about how unlikely it was in practice.
55	** Hook is used to the children on the island remaining children. It's more likely to him to see the child as Wendy than to assume it's her daughter. He lives in Neverland, the idea of aging and growing old probably doesn't really occur to him anymore as it would a normal person in the Mainland.
56	** Additionally, certain properties establish that time in Neverland passes differently than in the real world. Even in the Disney version, in the original film the Darling children only seemed to be away from home for one night, and the same is true for Jane's adventure in this one. Not enough time might have passed for Hook to stop and consider it odd that "Wendy" hadn't grown up since he'd last seen her.
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58	* Doesn't Peter actually look grown-up? I'd say he looks 21 at least. So doesn't that mean that he did grow up?
59	** His voice actor and physical model, Bobby Driscoll, was about 14 or 15 when the movie was being made. I think that's the main problem; he does seem a bit more like a teenager than a child. But I personally don't think he seems 21 and I definitely don't think he's meant to seem that old. 12-14 feels like the right age range.
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61	* Why does one twin sometimes echo the other? Speaking in unison is normal for SingleMindedTwins, but what's with the echoing thing?
62	** Bit of a FridgeBrilliance thing here if you know the original book and play: The twins ''aren't'' SingleMindedTwins, but Peter (who doesn't have a realistic view on what twins are) thinks they ''should'' be... and so, they're always trying their best to ''appear'' as if they are. Since they're not actually very good at the "speaking in unison" thing, they instead use the tactic of echoing each other as if they truly were thinking alike.
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64	* Nana being the nursemaid - ''why''? Of course she's going to act like a dog when she ''is'' a dog, Mr. Darling. Granted, Nana is rather intelligent, but it makes no sense why they hired a dog to be a nursemaid.
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66	!!2003 movie
67	* At the beginning, Wendy tells an story about Cinderella fighting against Captain Hook and his crew. However, when she later meets Peter Pan, it's implied that this is the first time she meets or knows about him, given that she asks him for his name. How did Wendy know about Captain Hook but not about his archenemy?
68	** She might know who he is, but is introducing herself to be polite, as befitting a ProperLady in training. In the book, she did know and told plenty of stories about him too.
69	** The original ending would clarify that Wendy is telling the story to her daughter Jane. So in this event, what we see are the recollections of a thirty-something woman trying to remember what she did when she was twelve. Her memories might have blended together so that maybe in real life that's not what happened but Wendy remembers it that way.
70	** And maybe she doesn't know about Hook's ArchEnemy, and that's why the story is about Cinderella fighting the pirates rather than Peter.
71	* Why does Miss Fulson assume that Wendy is having sexual fantasies with a flying boy? Instead of reprimanding Wendy, shouldn’t she be alerted by the drawing? Wendy’s drawing could possibly mean that she is being targeted by a predator who sneaks into her house during the night.
72	** This is Edwardian England. Miss Fulson is said to be a huge prude, so she's more outraged by the idea that a girl in her class could be having such blatant sexual fantasies. And we don't know what was in the letter she sent to George, or what else Wendy told her. From what little of Miss Fulson is shown, she appears to be a strict, grumpy schoolmarm - and being annoyed at a child in her class misbehaving would be more in character than worrying for what the child gets up to at home. Remember that Victorian and Edwardian society placed a strong emphasis on discipline and making sure children were kept in line (it was only a couple of decades before this takes place that lying was considered one of the worst sins a child could commit).
73	** To add to the above, "why does Miss Fulson assume that Wendy is having sexual fantasies with a flying boy?" Because Wendy gives her no reason to believe the drawing means anything other than that. It's worth noting that in the drawing itself, Wendy drew Peter as the same size as her and with wings. He looks like a stereotypical child's drawing of a fairy. And, when directly questioned about the drawing ("if this is you in your bed, what is '''this'''? ''[points to the drawing of Peter hovering above Wendy's bed]''"), Wendy outright identifies Peter as "a boy"; not a man or even a monster, but a flying boy. This isn't a situation where a little girl who is incapable of either comprehending or articulating an issue like a predator assaulting her at night can only communicate such things through upsetting imagery and/or writing, or is obliquely trying to bring her abuse to someone's attention for fear of retribution were she to directly ask for help; Wendy is an extremely articulate and intelligent girl on the cusp of puberty whose entire character arc throughout the film consists of coming to terms with the fact that she's growing up and all that entails. Also, to put it bluntly, while abuse of that kind certainly happened back then just as it has throughout history, it was nowhere near as known about and certainly not thought of to occur in middle or upper class families such as the Darlings' household. Again, that's not to say that it never happened but in the time period we're talking about, it wouldn't exactly be anywhere near anyone's first thought on the basis of one single drawing that a girl of Wendy's age and social standing would necessarily be being assaulted, ''especially'' since the one doing it would likely have to be a member of her own family given that they have an effective guard-dog in Nana so it's highly unlikely anyone would be breaking in...
74	* How does the Messenger Boy know who Wendy Darling is upon going to the bank to deliver the letter to Mr. Darling? She could have been a random girl who was walking home with her brothers and her dog. The film takes place in a time where no cellphones existed, so Miss Fulsom couldn't have shown him a picture of Wendy to warn him about her if she tried to take the letter from him.
75	** When Miss Fulsom is giving the boy the letter, Wendy is sitting outside the classroom and he sneers at her. That's also how she recognises him when she sees him on the street later.
76	* How doesn't Aunt Millicent become aware of Peter Pan's presence with all that noise coming from the children's nursery?
77	** She ''does''. When she hears Peter rolling around with his shadow, she goes up to investigate...and finds the nursery empty and all three children sound asleep. She's reading ''War of the Worlds'' and seems to blame the book for making her think something was happening upstairs. And once Wendy wakes up, all her and Peter do is talk at a reasonable volume that Aunt Millicent wouldn't hear from downstairs. Maybe she heard John fall off the bed when trying to fly, but maybe Nana's barking drowned that out. Once the children start flying, they logically wouldn't be making too much noise since they're floating in mid-air.
78	* What has Michael's teddy bear got inside that is so heavy that it can hurt a pirate's groin? Or is it the pirate's groin that's so sensitive?
79	** It just spent a lot of time in the water, so it's bound to be heavier when it's wet. And Michael does do it rather forcefully, which would cause some pain regardless of how heavy the bear is.
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81	!!All Works
82	* Hook shoots his crew with extreme regularity, so how does he have any left? All of them appear white, so he's not stealing them from the Indians (which likely wouldn't work in any case). In the 2003 film he shoots two of them inside of five minutes. You'd think he'd have run through their entire number inside of a fortnight, given how trigger-happy he is.
83	** It's possible that Hook himself and the rest of the pirates are Lost Boys that escaped from Peter Pan due to be killed.
84	** Considering Neverland is often described as being influenced by the dreams and imaginations of children, it's likely that Hook gets new, nameless crew members as kids dream about them. It's not like any of them are all that important outside of himself and Smee.
85	* Okay, so in the book's universe, if a child says, "I don't believe in fairies", a fairy dies. I have three questions about that: 1.) What if they're quoting someone else? 2.) What if a child says that fairies ''probably'' don't exist without outright denying their existence? 3.) What if an ''adult'' says that they don't believe in fairies?
86	** 1.) I would imagine that intent matters with this sort of thing, though I could be wrong. 2.) It's still possible to believe in something even as you acknowledge it's probably not real. Just as long as you don't outright denounce your faith in it, I'd assume it's safe. 3.) I have seen versions of the story that expand the phrase to include everyone, not just children.
87	** Intent must matter. In most works, Peter actually says the line as he tells Wendy "Every time someone says 'I don't believe in fairies' a fairy dies." He'd be killing off a fairy by saying that, if merely pronouncing the sentence was enough.
88	** In the 2003 film, Hook says it specifically to kill the fairy guide, and adults like the Darling parents and Aunt Millicent say they do believe to resurrect Tinkerbell - so adults presumably can say it as well.
89	* If fairies are born every time a baby laughs, how come nobody's seen one?
90	** Because they're born in Neverland, as is shown in Disney's ''Tinker Bell'' movie.
91	** In the book, it's said that the ''first'' baby's laugh resulted in the birth of the fairies.
92	* If Captain Hook is terrified of the crocodile and never allowed to be calm due to his constant stalking, why does it never occur to Hook to order his men to shoot at the beast to get rid of it? In the Disney movie, for example, the crocodile was waiting for him in the water, and Hook could have used the opportunity to have his men use their pistols and muskets to shoot the crocodile dead.
93	** Maybe Hook feels that his vendetta against the crocodile is just too personal to allow his men to get involved. It should be noted that Book!Hook is way less of a pansy than Disney!Hook, so he could just be too prideful to order someone else to kill it for him, or he might feel like it would be too easy. Neverland is all about big, grand adventures, after all, and having someone else kill his (second) greatest enemy for him might just not be a good enough story for Hook to want it to end that way. The last thing he'd want to do is appear cowardly to anyone.

Context Headscratchers / PeterPan