| 1 | * Timeline wise...when exactly was Rey "born"? If he, as a clone, ages faster than a normal person, then that means he was created after Kira right? By then Al Da Flaga already had his perfect clone (and may have already been dead depending on how old Mu was during the fire) and the Ultimate Coordinator already existed...so when and why was there a need for Rey in the first place? And if Rau was nearing the end of his life at 28 why was it implied that Rey was nearing his end at ~17? If they're clones of the same person, shouldn't Rey have the same approximate life span? |
| 2 | ** I got the impression that Rey was just a back up done by Hibiki, on the off chance that something went wrong with Le Creuset later in life (as it eventually did). As for the problems with him, I don't know. Maybe they tried to halt the rapid aging problem, and instead severed the telomeres completely at 17? |
| 3 | *** It's also possible Rey meant 28 as dying soon. Yeah another 10 years might seem like a long time, but he certainly wouldn't be growing old with Shinn and prospering in their brave new Destiny Plan world. |
| 4 | ** Could also be a case of the medication that was keeping Le Creuset alive being almost used up. It certainly wouldn't be a very common drug. If Rey's exhausted the last of it--or has had it stop working for him earlier than it did for Le Creuset--he's going to die sooner. |
| 5 | |
| 6 | * Where did the competency go of the Earth Federation after the first episode? They were competent in storming Armory 1 and for the rest of the series they're a bunch of idiots. All of their mobile suit pilots graduated from the ImperialStormtrooperMarksmanshipAcademy. Seriously, I can't remember how much a titular character was hovering in place observing the battle field before a {{Mook}} or two takes a few shots at him that blatantly miss. How do you miss a stationary target! And they can barely even use a shield. |
| 7 | ** It's really easy to look competent when you sneak into a place that wasn't expecting any real threats. In other words, surprise is a devastating tactic when used right. |
| 8 | ** Can we stop exaggerating things so much? Does it bug you that Zeon forces got trounced by the White Base crew all the time? And really, the first CurbStompBattle against the Earth Federation was Lohengrin Gate. They still remained a credible threat until the rampage of Minerva trio through the Angel's Base. |
| 9 | ** The EA goes for quantity over quality, so it makes sense their pilot training is substandard. Also they were up against AcePilot main characters often with superior machines, against whom even ZAFT pilots, even with their genetic enhancements and higher quality mobile suits, faired no better. |
| 10 | ** The Earth Alliance actually made some really intelligent decisions between Seed and Destiny. The short version is that they combined defense-oriented hordebreaker units (the mobile armors, with their DeflectorShields and BeamSpam) with ZergRush GlassCannon DeathFromAbove units (the Windam, which blew up with alarming frequency, but had a beam rifle so could OHKO most targets and could ''fly'', which gave it a huge advantage over 95% of the ZAFT MS prior to the introduction of the GOUF, not to mention the fact that there were a ''lot'' of Windams out there), and had an elite unit in the form of Phantom Pain for special ops. The ''only'' thing they lacked -- which caused their eventual downfall -- was something capable of standing up to an enemy Gundam. Seriously, the Minerva basically singlehandedly won the war for ZAFT -- at the Lohengrin Gate, Heaven's Base, the battle for Requiem, etc -- because the Earth Alliance didn't have anything that could take down a Gundam. Which in a sane world wouldn't matter, because your handful of Gundams can only be in one place at a time, so can't win a war by themselves, but... well, in the end, the show is called Gundam for a reason. Meaning that the Earth Alliance in Destiny is more guilty of ''GenreBlindness'' than incompetence. |
| 11 | ** It's also worth noting that despite being run by a total GeneralFailure, the Earth Forces fought a fine tactical war up until the destruction of Heaven's Base. Sure, they lost battles, but they inflicted heavy casualties on ZAFT, wiped out Eurasia as a threat, and--even after losing the land war--came within a hair's breadth of taking out the colonies with Requiem. It was their strategy and public relations that sucked. Individual battles were handled just fine. |
| 12 | ** It is even worse if you remember that in the previous war, the EA was decently capable of countering enemy Gundams with their own self-produced Gundam force. |
| 13 | *** They did produce Gundams, mass produce in fact, the Destroy Gundam, a gigantic NighInvulnerable WeaponOfMassDestruction that successfully destroyed armies of enemies and even gave Gundam pilot (until they upgraded) trouble. The ''Stargazer'' side story and other supplementary material shows their special covert forces did use Gundams to good effect, and that the Minerva and it's Gundams were insignificant from the EA's perspective given they weren't dispatched to deal with them. Again, GenreBlind. |
| 14 | *** One of the EA officers suggests [[FantasticRacism they're biased agains mobile suits for being invented by Coordinators]] (they only adopted them out of necessity). Resources that would have gone into Gundams instead went to mass produced weapons that better fit their beliefs and [[ZergRush military doctrine]]. |
| 15 | |
| 16 | * At which point did it seem like a good idea to have your top secret weapon piloted by an idiot who once danced off a cliff? |
| 17 | ** Which reminds me, why didn't Stellar drown? The show would be a lot better without her stupidity mucking things up. |
| 18 | ** To be fair, Stellar's not exactly mentally handicapped; she's more like a combat savant. Notice that while she's extremely childlike and {{Moe}} outside of battle, she gets serious and, actually, downright dangerous ''in'' combat. Remember that in order to ''get into'' her Gundam, she dropped six trained ZAFT soldiers with a gun/knife combo attack. She's also pretty dangerous in her early fights against Shinn (oddly, she seems to be less dangerous in the Destroy than she was in the Gaia). As for why she acts childlike outside of combat? I haven't seen any WordOfGod, but I'd say it's either the whole savant thing, or it's a result of her being raised differently from the other Extendeds. Specifically, she may have been raised more as a weapon than as a person, unlike her teammates. Her third person speech pattern would in this case be the result of her trainers deciding that really proper grammar was less important to teach her than combat skills. Her lack of a true childhood would also explain why she sees everything in the world as amazing: she hasn't really been exposed to it before. Admittedly, this is just a hypothesis, but I don't think it's a terrible one. |
| 19 | *** As far as her performance in the Destroy vs the Gaia goes, the Destroy is meant for use against armies and other large targets. Using it against a single, fast moving target (like Shinn or Kira) would be akin to trying to shoot down an airplane with the main guns on a battleship. The Destroy can only be effective with proper air support. The minute they lose their air cover, they tend to go down pretty fast. |
| 20 | ** Another possible theory; since Stellar seems be emotionally fragile and unstable, her childlike behavior might be caused by psychological regression, where the human mind reverts into a child-like pattern of behavior as a defense mechanism. After all, their training would have been inherently traumatizing, and all of the Extendeds are psychologically warped one way or another. Stellar just copes by acting like a young girl so she doesn't need to face the sad realities of her life. |
| 21 | |
| 22 | * Why the hell does Lord Djbril wear lipstick? If I want to send fear into my opponents I am not going to do it with makeup that looks fit for a whore. |
| 23 | ** Because he thinks it makes him look more "refined". When did he ever try to send fear into his opponents? Up until about halfway through the series he doesn't suspect that others (specifically Durandal) know he's pulling the Atlantic Federation's strings. Later on he fires the Requiem with the specific purpose of wiping out the P.L.A.N.Ts, ''not'' to send fear into them. |
| 24 | |
| 25 | * Akatsuki. It's a suit made at about the same time as Freedom and Justice, but without the N-Jammer Canceler that made them so powerful. And yet, it managed to keep up with bleeding edge suits in terms of maneuverability, managed to have [[BeamSpam Super DRAGOONs]], and magic armor that absorbed and then shot back beam weapons. |
| 26 | ** The N-Jammer Canceler didn't make Freedom and Justice more powerful, it just let them be nuclear powered, and thus be able to operate indefinitely. |
| 27 | ** ... which makes it stronger, as they can use Phase Shift and use their weapons more freely. Additionally, infinite power = more energy for thrusters = superior agility. And still, there's no reason that the Akatsuki should be that damn strong... technology has been advancing amazingly fast the past few years, to the point that a SuperPrototype from the beginning of SEED cannot keep up with a grunt suit from the end of the same series. Yet Akatsuki isn't just as strong as a suit from its time should be... it's strong for a suit from the period it gets used. Which makes no sense. |
| 28 | *** The Strike and Buster (and even the Strike Rouge, which was built completely out of SPARE PARTS) were still incredibly effective at the end of SEED. The only time the Strike struggled was against Rau Le Creuset. |
| 29 | *** Given that Yzak and Dearka both used MP suits at the beginning of Destiny it's safe to say that the first gen Gundams are obsolete by the time of Destiny, though their effectiveness during the end of SEED is debatable. |
| 30 | *** That may have less to do with effectiveness, and more with a combination of symbolic humility (they are no longer the Le Creuset squad, thus no longer pilot their Gundams), and logistical efficiency (ZAKU units are more adaptable, easier to maintain, and replaceable if they get shot down). |
| 31 | ** There are several reasons why the Akatsuki was so effective. The first part is its mirror coating, which is what allows it to reflect beam weapons. If you consider the path of technical developments that occurred in the intervening years, one of the most obvious trends is the shift to an overwhelming reliance on beam weapons by both major factions in the conflict. In the previous war, the Akatsuki's effectiveness would have been somewhat iffy because its mirror coating means that it can't use Phase Shift armor and there are still a number of mobile suits and the like that rely on mass-based weapons as their primary form of attack. But fast-forward two years and now the Akatsuki is by default, basically immune to 90% of the weapons that would be employed by any potential opponents. Furthermore, because it doesn't use PS armor, the Akatsuki is free to use that power for other functions, like its DRAGOON system. Another thing to note is that the Akatsuki is likely based off of the Strike, and so uses interchangeable equipment modules. It's not out of the question that even though the mobile suit itself was finished earlier in the series that some of its striker pack upgrades, namely the DRAGOON based one, could have been developed later down the line. And finally, in all of its uses after its initial appearance, the Akatsuki is piloted by none other than Mwu La Flaga - a pilot whose skills have been well established as badass enough to make him an effective combatant even in inferior and outdated machines. |
| 32 | *** In particular, the biggest one here is the total absence of Phase Shift armour, made possible by its mirror coating. PSA is one of the biggest drains on mobile suit power ''by far'' (mainly due to its always-on nature, coupled with a power spike whenever anything hits it), with multiple advances being made ''just to keep it from crippling anything battery-powered in drawn-out battles'' (the Strike Rouge's special PS armour that can be reconfigured before battle to adjust the effectiveness & power drain, the Calamity's/Forbidden's/Raider's Trans PS armour that only activates when an unpowered outer layer is breached, and the Impulse's Variable PS armour that automatically adjusts mid-battle depending on current equipment, plus the Second Stage Gundams in general being designed so that the Minerva can recharge them mid-battle ''without'' them having to land and power down first). So, not having it means that the Akatsuki doesn't have the same kind of constant power drain that literally every other mecha in the setting has, and only loses energy when it actually does something. This is a '''big''' difference. |
| 33 | ** Remember, it was losing to the Destiny Gundam when Kira intervened. It's advanced enough to outclass modern mooks, but still outclassed by the modern cutting edge technology |
| 34 | ** How the hell does the Akatsuki even survive the Tannhauser blast? A positron cannon is '''not''' a beam weapon, it's essentially an ''anti-matter weapon.'' |
| 35 | *** Don't the Dragoons' shields tank it? Even though its an antimatter weapon it still has to obey certain basic fundamentals such as "shit is in the way, I can't do anything and will simply run out of power" (notice the recharge time on the Requiem). IE it's possible the Dragoons simply formed its energy shield for the few seconds it needed to stall until the blast faded. Given how the shields form by spreading out from some kind of emitter it is also possible the shields are constantly being formed (as opposed to creating "solid" energy shields) in normal use bringing matter to continuously get in the way of the blast. Antimatter isn't some magical juggernaut that nothing can stop, just need enough matter in the way so they wipe each other out. The real problem is whether the Dragoons could block a blast from such an enormous station. |
| 36 | *** Positron Blaster Cannons, like Lohengrin and Tannhauser, are still technically beam weapons. They fire beams of positrons, which destroys electrons, and vice-versa, causing a molecular breakdown. It was too powerful to reflect straight up, like other beams, but the the armor was still able to negate the beam and it's effects. |
| 37 | *** I'm sorry, but positron cannons still do not work that way, "beam of positrons" or no. It acts as antimatter. A reflective coating would work against that about as well as a piece of paper would stop a flamethrower. The moment the blast would've made contact with the Akatsuki, the antimatter effect would've erased the surface of the mobile suit and continue on unimpeded, destroying everything in its path, and the reflective coating wouldn't have mattered one damn bit. |
| 38 | *** It ought to be noted that the Akatsuki previously manages to reflect the blasts from the Destiny's miniaturized version of the Tannhauser (or at least, the visual effects are completely indistinguishable except in terms of diameter and intensity). So there is at least precedent within the series itself to say that it is possible. It may not be technically possible under real-world physics, but I'll credit Destiny for at least foreshadowing the effect so that it doesn't come as a total asspull. |
| 39 | *** Destiny's red shots are simply from a higher power beam cannon, which Freedom, Strike Freedom, Blast Impulse, and several other mobile suits also had. They're simply more powerful beam shots. While their shots are drawn similarly Tannhauser and Loengrin's are supposed to be Positron cannons which involve firing antimatter. But on the other hand the show never treats them they way they should work in reality anyway (for example firing them in atmopshere should detonate all the air matter in the area destroying the ship and everything nearby. This doesn't happen.) And the show has other blantant contradictions of how technology really works like being able to instantly neutralize a nuclear reaction. So really I think we're just looking at this way too serious when the shows staff isn't trying to be remotely realistic. Positron cannons to them just mean really powerful beam, and that's all there is too it. |
| 40 | *** Positron weapons cause "positronic interference" and environmental damage when in atmosphere, there are the effects to prove they are different than normal beams. However, [[EnergyWeapon normal beams are not actual lasers]], so the armor is doing something more exotic than reflecting energy, in fact there's a notable delay between absorbing the beam and firing it back, even keeping the same color. Since the Armor is somehow able to briefly store the beam without it releasing it's destructive energy into the armor, it can similarly store positrons a release them before they cause ill effect (antimatter storage exists in real-life) because {{Technobabble}}. |
| 41 | |
| 42 | * Do we know that the Akatsuki isn't nuclear powered? Orb would have had access the plans for an N-Jammer canceller considering their time with the Freedom and Justice. In referring to the Akatsuki surviving a Tannhauser, if its from the occasion I think you're referienceing, the Tannhauser didn't actually touch the Akatsuki. The Akatsuki's DRAGOON system is specially designed to create an energy shield. You can check out MAHQ if you want to see the specs. |
| 43 | ** Was the Akatsuki actually built two years ago, or just commisioned? Because if it was comissioned, then they would have had plenty of time to work on the suit, and implement any new technologies that came along. |
| 44 | ** The idea of the Akatsuki not being nuclear-powered probably comes from its operating system, which still shows the same acronym for GUNDAM that the original battery-powered G-weapons did, whereas Freedom and Justice had a different meaning for it. |
| 45 | *** Perhaps the OS acronym is because it's a basic-variant suit, not an elite super-custom like the Freedom or Justice? |
| 46 | ** To all the above: according to [[https://gundam.fandom.com/wiki/ORB-01_Akatsuki_Gundamthe wiki]], it was commissioned two years ago given [[PosthumousCharacter Uzumi Nara Athha's recording]] but wasn't ready by the invasion of Orb and was mothballed but with development continuing. And no it's not nuclear (which is effecting banned by military treaty). |
| 47 | |
| 48 | * Why didn't Durandal just nuke Orb at the start instead of sending assassins to kill Lacus Clyne. He could easily blame it on the Earth Federation, its not like they're smart enough to defend themselves. |
| 49 | ** Because he didn't send any assassins. It's just assumed he did because they were ZAFT suits. However, as anything larger than a toaster is prone to theft in the Cosmic Era, this isn't really what I'd call damning evidence. |
| 50 | ** Because it's a lot easier to say it was a group of radicals if just assassins are used. A nuke, on the other hand, would invite way too much scrutiny and questions. As for whether he ordered the hit, the fact that he has an impostor ready to go (and has had her for months) seems to show that he was involved. |
| 51 | *** Lacus had been out of his control for months, and still had considerable moral implications. It's really not surprising he had a lookalike for her. |
| 52 | *** I'm still amazed people still think anyone ''but'' Durandal could pull off the attempt. Stealing suits that aren't even in full production yet? Not if you're not a named character. Besides, how would they get the info on where she was, and why would they risk a suicide mission on a washed-up pop singer? Look at Sato: did he care where Lacus was? No! He was too busy attempting Break the World. And note Durandal debuting Meer what, minutes after the assassination attempt? |
| 53 | *** I'm more amazed that people somehow assume it ''was'' Dullindal. We've seen ''three top-secret-one-of-a-kind-Gundams'' stolen right out from under ZAFT's nose in the middle of their most secure base. Who's to say that a handful of regular mobile suits stationed on low-security bases were actually safe in comparison? Andy's proof that they were Coordinators comes from circumstantial evidence, not to mention their skills are nothing remotely ''close'' to either Black-Ops or Wetworks teams - and we've already seen at least two major groups who would benefit from the death of the 'princess of peace' by episode 5 alone. Furthermore, Meer's been around for a good, long while - and Dullindal says he'd rather be working with the original than borrowing on her strength with a duplicate. While Dullindal isn't exactly innocent in this, there wouldn't be enough evidence to bring him into a court of law! |
| 54 | *** I'm still amazed Durandal supporters seem to think he's incapable of lying and every single word of his the honest truth. Of course he'd tell Athrun he wanted to work with the original. Saying "well I'd like the original but I know she'd never support me so I had a fake prepared that would" isn't making him sound very innocent. On other hand in his private thoughts (where he obviously wouldn't lie to himself) all we hear from him about Lacus is how troublesome she is to his plans. Yeah that's not enough to convict him in the court of law but there wasn't enough to convict Sirrocco or Haman either. One of the perks of being a Manipulative Bastard is that stringing people along isn't really a crime and others do the illegal stuff for you. |
| 55 | *** Well, he wouldn't be much of a Chessmaster if there was. |
| 56 | *** On top of that, Durandal's the only person with the opportunity. As the person further up stated, yeah there are other groups that would like Lacus dead (Blue Cosmos immediately springs to mind) but they have no idea where she is. If Djibril wanted to kill Lacus he'd have been sending assassins after Meer, who he and everyone else assumed was the real thing. Believing that he, or the morons from the Break the World incident actually uncovered Durandal's fake out, located the real Lacus, and then tried to kill her is an overestimation of their competence. Durandal's the only one who has motive, opportunity, and the requisite level of ability to pull something like that off. |
| 57 | *** Also, if Blue Cosmos or any other anti-ZAFT group found the real Lacus, why the hell would they kill her? Her existance proves that Meer is a fake, and that Durandal is a liar. It would benefit them far more to kidnap her and reveal her to the public, than to try and kill her in secret. Hell, Djibril himself was about to try and get Lacus on his side when she revealed herself in Orb. |
| 58 | *** On those defending Durandal: He's the only one with a real motive. He had a fake Lacus doing his biddings. Sudden return of real Lacus would have been a real disadvantage. Okay, there IS no real proof, but there never was any indication of any other group staging the incident. On the nuke topic... ZAFT isn't that evil. Mass destruction is avoided after the incidents of SEED. |
| 59 | *** There are a number of such mysteries in Gundam Seed Destiny which are never totally explained. But personally, I thought it was pretty obvious that Durandal sent the team to take out Lacus. He had a fake Lacus raring to go and definitely wants her dead later. If anything, I'd say that it's more likely that Durandal had the terrorist dropping of Junius 7 set up as part of his plan rather than saying that he wasn't actually the one to send soldiers after Lacus in spite of how obvious it seemed that he was. Durandal talked nice, but he sure didn't act it when it came to enacting his plans. |
| 60 | *** Durandal is the only suspect who makes sense. Terrorists, whether Blue Cosmos or followers of Patrick Zala, thrive on publicity; but these assassins are trying to do it secretly. Unless they had someone who knew Durandal's secrets, they also be targeting Meer, thinking she was Lacus. The assassins are Coordinators, which also eliminates Blue Cosmos. It also eliminates the Seirans as suspects - why would Coordinators try to kill Lacus so that Orb can ally with the Coordinator-hating Atlantic Federation? |
| 61 | *** The Special Edition (Which supposedly tried to clarify things) show Durandal making plans for Shinn to throw down with Kira almost immediately after Kira defeats the assassin squad (the fight is at the end of part 1 and Durandal thinking to himself is one of the first scenes in part 2) long before Kira actually starts messing with Zaft. Why would he be planning for this with no cause before hand? For that matter he shouldn't even know Kira had Freedom back unless he sent or was at least somewhat involved with that squad. It had to be Durandal. |
| 62 | ** Durandal didn't nuke Orb, because he isn't a monster that would just blow stuff up, killing innocents, to kill somebody he wants dead. His plans were to create a world for everyone to co-exist in peace, even if it did mean some communism and monarchy was involved. His plan wasn't to nuke the places that opposed him until nobody stood in his way, like Patrick Zala would do. |
| 63 | ** Actually....that kind of was his plan. Yeah he didn't want all natural's dead, but once he got Requiem, anyone who wouldn't accept the Destiny Plan promptly had Requiem fired at them. He did it to EA's moon base, and he would have done it to Orb at the end. And while this might sound OOC for Durandal, keep in mind Orb is a relatively small country and Durandal clearly has no problem killing at least some innocents so long as the majority lives. He decided to blow up a fair amount of his own ships with Neo Genesis while they were in combat with the Orb fleet after all. He didn't do this at the beginning of Destiny of course because he at first seemingly wanted Orb on his side. He tried similar speeches that got Athrun and Shinn hanging on his every word on Cagalli while she was on the Minerva and even tried to bring her back to Plant with him for "her own safety" (where she would have gotten a front row seat for EA's nuke attack and Durandal could publicise that EA almost killed Orb's princess when she was a guest of Plant, which would have turned Orb anti EA and pro Zaft) but she opted to stay. And while Djbril was there Zaft would have taken Orb as a conquered territory if they successfully invaded. It was only after it was clear that Orb and Cagalli would not follow him no matter what that he decided to get rid of the whole country. So...he did his best to try to make use of Orb first. |
| 64 | |
| 65 | * How could everyone fall for that Meer Campbell fraud? She couldn't imitate Lacus well if her life was riding on that! |
| 66 | ** Because a pop star getting a boob job and changing her image is something that happens all the time in real life without the pop star being replaced by another person. |
| 67 | ** Because she was 16 in GS and 18 in GSD. I don't think it would be that strange if she naturally "grow up" around that age. |
| 68 | ** [[http://shinnanigans.livejournal.com/3290.html Because of this]] |
| 69 | ** The real question is how a pop star like Lacus could have so much political clout and reputation in the first place. |
| 70 | *** Because her dad was as important as he was. Plus, after the events of the previous series and the role she played there, Lacus could be a truck driver and people would still listen. |
| 71 | ** I recall ThoseTwoGuys on the Minerva actually talking about how different "Lacus" was early on, but they came to the conclusion that they liked her better that way and didn't put any further thought into it. Whether this goes for the ''rest'' of humanity, we can only guess. |
| 72 | *** Meyrin also comments to Athrun about how different "Lacus' is. |
| 73 | ** As far a bust size difference is concerned I heard that the explanation to the public was her genes were coordinated to have her 'blossom' at that age. |
| 74 | ** Uh, not sure which commercial interludes you were watching, but Lacus *did* blossom. She just doesn't dress in a way to emphasize those parts. Meer herself wouldn't look too much different from Lacus if she wore Lacus's kimono and white coat. Long story short, she's got the figure to match her mind. |
| 75 | ** Lacus seemed ditzy when we first saw her in ''SEED'' , key word seemed, and her competent actions later in the series were not widely known or counterd with propaganda. Only the main characters (and audience) personally knew Lacus enough to realized how OOC Meer was, and they had more pressing matters than convincing anyone else. |
| 76 | |
| 77 | * Exactly, how was the Destiny Plan supposed to bring everlasting peace? |
| 78 | ** By ushering in [[Literature/BraveNewWorld the Brave New World]]. It's [[AllThereInTheManual in the manga]]. |
| 79 | ** The idea was to control everyone, putting them in a place suitable for their natrual genetics and abilities, forcing them to stay there whether they liked it or not, and thus creating a world where everyone can, and must co-exist. |
| 80 | ** Durandal seems to be under the impression that conflict stems from dissatisfaction in life. He seemed to honestly think that if people were put in their "proper place" through genetic determinism, they would feel happy and fulfilled and thus would have no desire to spark conflicts. Naturally, there would be a transitional period during which the people of the world got used to the idea, but once that was over, war would be a thing of the past. Of course, he's wrong about that. In fact, I recall one of the ''Astray'' mangas showing a Coordinator who had come from a Martian colony which actually did implement a system similar to the Destiny Plan (independently of Durandal... in fact, it's implied that they are where he got the idea), and he was (inwardly) pretty dissatisfied with having his life planned out for him. |
| 81 | |
| 82 | * Why was Cagalli/Athrun shot down the way it was, because it was an "unequal pairing"? Why couldn't it be something more sensible, like "being the son of a genocidal madman who would have torched their homeland from orbit". |
| 83 | ** Or they just grew apart because they have different lives and obligations? |
| 84 | *** You mean like what actually happened in the series. The breakup has absolutely nothing to do with an "unequal pairing". They were both very recently on the rebound in Seed and as Destiny and real life show, rebound relationships often don't work out. From their first appearance in Destiny, Athrun and Cagalli aren't communicating and are making decisions as individuals, not a couple. Athrun is obviously dissatisfied with his role in Orb, which lots of people, including even Shinn, notice and comment on, while Cagalli says and does nothing about it. Cagalli repeatedly chooses Orb over Athrun even before she breaks the engagement and joins the Earth Alliance. Athrun chooses to somewhere that people listen to him and give him the chance to protect people from genocidal maniacs. |
| 85 | *** Not sure what series you were watching, but that isn't what happened at all. The relationship itself came to an end because Cagalli attempted to go through with her arranged marriage to Yuna while Athrun was visiting the Plants, which he'd only done in order to find out more about what their plans were going forward after the Junius 7 incident. It had nothing to do with Athrun being dissatisfied by his life in Orb and with Cagalli specifically. Furthermore, he specifically tells Cagalli about understanding why she went through with the marriage, but that he can't forgive her for it, when they meet up against after he's rejoined Zaft and Cagalli has left Orb with the Archangel. |
| 86 | ** Just because they used to love each other, and just because they were cute/popular couple in the eyes of their fans, it doesn't mean that their love will last ever after. After all, Cagalli disappoints Athrun by agreeing to marry Yuna behind his back. Athrun disappoints Cagalli by giving her cold treatment when he got back to Archangel (with Meyrin on his side no less). Maybe the flame simply died. |
| 87 | *** It was a marriage arranged by her father long before she ever met Athrun, let alone fell in love with him, and considering what happened to her dad (and the fact without Yuna and his dad she stands alone in the Orb government) she probably felt she HAD to do it. And it was made clear right before Athrun took off for the PLANTs that he understood, accepted it at politically necessary, and STILL LOVED HER. Or did that ring mean jack all? Apparently it did to Fukuda, considering Cagalli just suddenly stopped wearing it when Athrun and Meyrin join the group, which is what ticked Athrun off in the first place. |
| 88 | *** Actually, Athrun was shocked that Cagalli had dumped him to marry Yuna. At their next meeting, Athrun was angry with Cagalli and said there were somethings even he couldn't forgive. Cagalli finally stopped wearing the ring when she finally admitted to herself that she had broken the engagement long before then. |
| 89 | |
| 90 | * So, does the Extendeds' brainwashing/memory suppression gradually wear off if not routinely applied? Since I found it a bit odd that Stellar went from panicking and screaming that she didn't know Shinn to docile, vulnerable, and recognizing him within the course of about two or three scenes without any real sort of trigger. Or do we just chalk it up to good ol' PowerOfLove and leave it at that? |
| 91 | ** It seems so, since they require regular 'maintenance' inside those glowing capsules that constantly 'smooth them over' to ensure control (and keep them alive). This is some pretty heavy mental tinkering, after all, which seems to still be in experimental stages, so it might not yet be perfect. |
| 92 | |
| 93 | * So Durandal reveals his Destiny Plan, essentially saying that he'll now dictate everyone's lives via their genetics. The Earth governments reject the plan, but what about ''ZAFT and the [=PLANTs=]''? Why was there was not a ''single'' note of complaint from anyone watching their democratically elected leader make himself a dictator? In Gundam SEED they at least showed that the radical fringe was in power and people were having doubts even as they followed orders. But in this the Coordinator reaction was either complete silence or loyal obedience, even though the plan was a total surprise to everyone. Durandal is a charismatic man, but that's just breaking the suspension of disbelief in half. |
| 94 | ** After being through two world wars in as many years people are probably willing to listen to anyone who claims he has a plan to bring peace, especially when he/she says it with the kind of conviction that Durandal has. And not everyone did buy into it. Yzak and Dearka jumped ship again, and a huge chunk of the ZAFT fleet willingly went with them. |
| 95 | *** Plus Durandal had been systematically trying to eliminate any coordinators he thought might oppose the Destiny Plan long before he announced it - look at Operation Angel Down, the attempted killing of Athrun and Meyrin, and the several attempts at assassinating Lacus. |
| 96 | ** As for Earth's nations, only Orb and Scandanavia rejected the Plan. Most of the governments were destroyed during the war and Logos chase, so they have to rely on Durandal for support. |
| 97 | ** Along with the two countries mentioned above, the Atlantic Federation also was against it. It took Requiem killing their leaders to convince them otherwise... |
| 98 | ** Who's to say they approved? Given he was going to WaveMotionGun any nations that objected into oblivion, it's safe to say he similarly would have cracked down on anyone in the [=PLANTs=] who publicly protested. |
| 99 | |
| 100 | * Why did Rey do such a ideological 180 in the final episode? He has loyally served Durandal all his life, obviously cared about him very much (he ''flung himself'' into Durandal's arms in an early episode), and is so haunted by his inevitable fate he passionately supports the Destiny Plan. And yet a few choice words from Kira move him so much he shoots his own father figure? Even though the WordOfGod says Kira 'strayed from the path of justice' and is therefore wrong? So Rey, essentially, defies all of his previous loyalties and motivations to follow someone canon sees as misguided and villainous? How the heck does that make any sense? |
| 101 | ** Maybe Lacus taught Kira those formidable mindrape skills that made a pop star the most influential person in ZAFT's politics... |
| 102 | ** It looked to this troper that Kira's words managed to snap Rey out of his CloneAngst and convinced him that he wasn't bound by fate since was his own person who could decide his own destiny, which runs contrary to Durandal's Destiny Plan, which would rob people of that. Still, it was very poorly executed on the series' part, and didn't quite warrant a bullet. |
| 103 | ** I think that a lot of Rey's turn around has to do with his regarding himself as the new, improved Le Creuset. He wants to live a better version of Rau's life, and part of that (at least from his perspective) seems to entail defeating Kira, who killed his older brother figure. They fight, and what ends up happening? He gets his rear-end kicked, but Kira, who he regards as an abomination, doesn't finish the job. Instead he tells him that his need to live down what Rau tried to do isn't necessary, and that he can be his own person, then leaves. Rey's just had two of the central tennents of his life--that the Ultimate Coordinator is inherently bad, and that he has to make up for Rau's mistakes--questioned for quite possibly the first time. By the time he reaches the Durandal's room, he's probably questioned his own motivations more than a few times. And when he gets there, what does he overhear? Kira giving more or less the same speech to Durandal, proving that it wasn't just BS to mess with Rey's head. We'll never know what went through Rey's head after that, but for the first time someone's given him some hope. And then Durandal tries to shoot that person. Rey's military training kicks in, and he reacts instinctively, blowing Durandal away. Judging from his freakout afterwards, he almost instantly regrets it. Does that make sense to anyone else? |
| 104 | *** It does make a lot of sense. The problem is that this all happened over the course of ''one episode''. If this had happened over a series of multiple episodes, showing that doubt was slowly gnawing at Rei until he finally snapped, it could have been brilliant. Instead we get an epic Motivation Whiplash. |
| 105 | *** To be fair as a clone he is likely much younger than he appears and since he appears as a teenager its likely he is very young and open to manipulation as he doesn't have the proper mental maturity to think critically or for himself. He would be easily swayed by acceptance, I mean he clings to Talia as he dies and finally acts his age. He is enacting a less cynical version of Rau Le Creuset's plan and even pilots an upgraded version of his final suit. He is basically emulating his big brother and once Kira accepts the orphan (who do you think has been taking care of him?) he is willing to listen. |
| 106 | |
| 107 | * WordOfGod maintains that Kira and friends were indeed the villains - leaving aside the ethical issues of [[UtopiaJustifiesTheMeans Durandal's plan]], the series ends with Kira ''winning'' and being, at least in-series, endorsed as right all along. So does that make Destiny an epic DownerEnding, or...? |
| 108 | ** The term "villain" is heavily subjective. In Shinn, Rey, Luna, and the rest of FAITH's minds, they are the noble heroes, and Kira, Lacus, Athrun, et al were the villainous traitors who stood against a lasting, bloodless peace. Could be that the interview is carrying the same view going in. That Shinn and FAITH will be the new heroes, while Kira and the TSA are the "villains" of the piece. |
| 109 | ** I recall an [[WordOfGod interview]] around the time the series started saying that this was a series in which 'the good guys would lose. |
| 110 | ** I wouldn't really call it a DownerEnding, since ''Final Plus'' shows that the world was unified, peace was finally achieved, and Kira and Shinn promised to work together in maintaining it. It's just that Kira and his group came across as villainous since they dealt with the problems in the most dickish way possible. I wouldn't say they were outright villains, just heavily misguided by their emotions and stubborn. |
| 111 | *** Can someone explain how Kira and group acted like villains? As I seem to recall, Kira was trying to keep a bunch of people from needlessly murdering each other (ZAFT/Orb fleet), which ultimately wound up failing anyway. Beyond that point, post Stella, it was quite clear that Durandal was more or less thinking how he was going to take over the world. I'd think that puts Kira/Murrue/Lacus as the good guys by default at that point! |
| 112 | *** It requires giving Durandal a ridiculous benefit of the doubt and Kira and co none at all. And zero sympathy for anyone on Orb's side, they'd rather the whole fleet was wiped out if Heine could survive and Orb should have been conqured to keep Djbril from getting to Requiem. Basically the idea the Kira is evil people have is Durandal didn't send the assassins, Kira and co just assumed he did and waged war on him and interfered with Durandal's legitimate attempt to bring peace the world, and also that the Destiny Plan was voluntary and if any country refused he'd leave them be, with Orb only being singled out because they attacked him first. |
| 113 | * Some of this gets frankly ridiculous (Durandal blantantly says to target Orb at the end but his supporters insist he must mean to target the government buildings only and leave the civilians unharmed.) but others have some point because the show doesn't outright explain stuff like whether he really sent those assassins or not unless like mentioned hear, you work out the logic yourself. |
| 114 | *** WordOfGod does not say that Kira and company were the villains of the piece. That's merely some Durandal fans interpretation of a rough translation of an interview from "Animaze" magazine. Considering they can't even get the magazine name right, I'm rather doubtful of the accuracy of the claims. |
| 115 | *** As for Kira and co being dickish about their methods: what was the other option? The Destiny plan was evil. They couldn't talk Shinn, Rey and Durandal down, so they beat them down. Same method used by every Gundam protagonist since Amuro. |
| 116 | *** That interview also seems rather poorly translated and while a single line does mention Kira and Lacus may have strayed from justice, it's otherwise Anti Durandal mentioning the Destiny Plan would never be fully accepted without lots of bloodshed because people given lousy jobs WOULD rebel against it, and that Durandal was a sociopath with no belief in people and he'd been planned for Destiny Plan since before Seed ended (implying much of the Destiny war WAS simply plotted out to let him bring out his plan) and implied Shinn was a tragic character that made poor decisions, that he was delusional that he had gotten strength to protect the world and he was the one that needed to be protected, and that while Shinn meant well he was a "lost" warrior who never met the person to guide him on his true path (and since Durandal was guiding him Durandal wasn't setting him straight then. Obviously Fukuda is talking about Lacus, as Shinn is the one person in CE that never really seemed to care or know much about her). It's so anti Durandal and anti Shinn that one line might have been a mistranslation, since nobody has ever produced the original Japanese interview and Fukuda hasn't spoke since it's impossible to tell. |
| 117 | ** The most reasonable interpretation, IMO, is simply that it's a matter of perspective. The show's viewpoint follows the Minerva initially, and from their perspective, ZAFT is the good guys and EA & the Three Ships Alliance are the bad guys. Truly the sort of thing to [[FromACertainPointOfView make Obi-Wan proud]]. |
| 118 | * Did they say "villain" or "antagonist"? [[HeroAntagonist There's an important distinction.]] |
| 119 | * That translation was simply not up to par as it was in the earlier days of the fandom. A more recent and much better translated one says that as Fukuda was creating the show it occured to him based on what he was seeing that maybe Kira wasn't quite as just as the show said he was, meaning that the writing and production's intention was for Kira and Lacus to come off as the good guys which is clear from the show's ambiance but it came across fumbled and they didn't look quite as heroic as they'd intended them to. Which is basically right in line with how much of the audience saw it, that Kira's group came off as rather callous and unreasonable hostile at points like them just firing at Minerva as they saw fit instead of trying to communicate or work things out with them but then being shocked when Minerva declares them an enemy, or them mostly ignoring and not caring about Djbril and Logos's various atrocities (barring the one exception in Berlin) in favor of focusing on Zaft and Durandal even though Durandal didn't openly do anything evil until the end of the show and they inadventently helped Djbril's Requiem attack by saving Orb from Zaft (not that that wasn't understandable from their perspective but they barely register Requiem instead focusing on their eventual showdown with Durandal, who hadn't actually unveiled his plan yet). Still in the end Kira and co are the good guys and Durandal and Zaft aren't as per the writings intentions, it's just that Kira and his group do several questionable things prior to the finale that the narrative seems completely oblivious to. |
| 120 | |
| 121 | * The Impulse. ZAFT specifically built the Minerva for the Impulse, but only ever built one Impulse unit. Then, when the next generation of mobile suits came around, they didn't incorporate the modular design into any prototypes or mass production models. The more I think about it, the more that the Impulse's combining system seemed like just a gimmick, since it was only ever really significant in one battle (Impulse vs Freedom) and the design was otherwise abandoned by ZAFT. Bar the aforementioned Impulse vs Freedom battle, the Impulse could have just been a single unit with a slightly more advanced system of changing packs and nothing would have changed. |
| 122 | ** Considering how CrazyPrepared Durandal was initially it might not be too out there for the Impulse's combining gimmick solely to have been created for the ulterior motive of being able to go against Freedom. Durandal obviously knew about Kira, was expecting his interference at some point seemed to be raising Shinn specifically to be Zaft's counterpart version of Kira. As special edition 2 showed he was long expecting Shinn and Kira to face off so it wouldn't be that farfetched for Durandal to make sure his sides main Ace's machine had a design feature to counter the specific combat style of the enemy's. Note that immediately after Kira is supposedly killed Durandal gives Shinn a new machine more suited to enforcing and overpowering regular machines. |
| 123 | ** Core Block Systems, as they're called in UC, have been described as horrifically expensive and wasteful glorified ejection systems. The Impulse was probably never designed for mass-production, just an experimental unit due to the success of the Striker Pack during the last war. The EA adopted it wholesale, with most of the Dagger line and the Windam using it as well. The stock footage launching is just plain stupid, however. |
| 124 | ** The ''Impulse'' '''is''' an experimental mobile suit, same with the ''Chaos'', ''Gaia'', ''Abyss'', ''Saviour'', ''Destiny'', and ''Legend''. Ever wondered what the "X" in their designations means? |
| 125 | ** I used to think that this was weird too, until I thought about it in context, then it became FridgeBrilliance. The Impulse was originally designed the way it was because of the provisions in the Treaty of Junius 7, which was drawn up at the end of the first Bloody Valentine war. The provisions of the treaty impose several limitations on both ZAFT and the Earth Forces in terms of number of machines, outlawing N-Jammers, N-Jammer Cancelers and Mirage Colloid etc. The Impulse was designed to work around those limitations by creating mobile suits that could serve in several rolls and change between them mid-battle by equipping different silhouettes (supporting material also shows that the Chaos, Gaia and Abyss were also intended to be developed into additional silhouettes for the Impulse as well). This lets ZAFT get around the armament limitations in the treaty by having the Impulse, which can serve as several different kinds of mobile suits throughout a battle, but still claim that it's just one mobile suit, which allows them to get the most bang for their buck (or it would if development had continued and the system perfected for mass production). However, since the purpose of a treaty is to prevent a war in the first place, once one starts, the provisions of the treaty go out the window, as the Earth Forces handily demonstrated when they tried to nuke the PLANTS in the first battle of the new war. This meant that there was no need to continue the development of the Impulse, which was simply a workaround for the treaty in the first place, so it was sidelined and ZAFT went back to developing and building more typical mobile suits, now that their numbers were no longer limited by the treaty. |
| 126 | *** Furthermore, the existence of Chaos, Gaia, and Abyss silhouettes in supporting material suggests that the Impulse was also intended as a concept-prover for other [=MSes=], so they wouldn't have to expend large amounts of time and resources on something that would just be a failure. Building, e.g., a special torso module and silhouette so they can use the Impulse as proof of concept for the Gaia would be a lot easier than building a full-fledged mecha, and allow them to catch a lot of the design flaws before they even made the actual prototype. |
| 127 | ** Also, on that subject, why weren't Rey and Luna given Impulses? The Minerva had a catapult specifically for launching the Impulse, and as the battle against the Freedom proved they had a large supply of Leg and Chest Flyers and assorted packs, so why didn't they just stock up on extra Core Splendors and give them to Rey and Luna instead of their crappy non-flying ZAKUs? |
| 128 | *** Because the Impulse was a prototype, so they only made one. The time and resources to make another went instead to the new, higher performing nuclear powered Gundams. (Still, FridgeLogic on why they couldn't build another one, which one would think would take a fraction of the time and effort, as a stopgap.) |
| 129 | *** NoPlansNoPrototypeNoBackup? |
| 130 | *** I believe it only when through two or three pairs of Leg and Chest Flyers against the Freedom. Is there anything to suggest they have that much more spares? Maybe they didn't have enough to spare for a second or third Impulse given they risk running out fo supplies (which must be expensive even by Gundam standards given the given the rate it goes through them). |
| 131 | ** When it was launching, WHY DO THE ENEMIES NEVER TRY TO SHOOT IT DOWN? Seriously. It's completely open! |
| 132 | *** The same reason TalkingIsAFreeAction and monsters never attack magical girls when they transform[[note]]Besides seeing them naked[[/note]]. Because the plot demands it. |
| 133 | *** Because it's a small target in a setting where ImperialStormtrooperMarksmanshipAcademy is the rule for non-main characters, and in the heat of battle they didn't realized what it was (it's a new system few know about) or that they should try to shoot it down until it's too late. The only fight I can think where an opponent had the skill and opportunity to do so was against Kira, who's {{Technical Pacifis|t}}m stopped him from directly attacking the Core Splendor (i.e. cockpit) and angst whom Shinn had studied against him such he know how and when to combine without them interfering (like when it was reeling from an attack). |
| 134 | *** My FanWank is they use some kind of ECM that prevents the enemy from locking on to or targeting it just long enough to combine. |
| 135 | |
| 136 | * Why did Shinn focus all his hate on Orb? And Cagali's family specifically? Let's not think about how some people wanted Orb to be sacks or any of that. The fact is that The Earth Alliance is far more responsible, or at least equally responsible for the death of his family, being the ones that invaded and all. Really, I get that he feels they didn't do enough to protect the city, but should't he have some grudge towards the EA as well? We all know Shinn does not hesitate to tear into someone he hates (the numerous times he ripped on Cagalli), so why just Orb? |
| 137 | ** RuleOfDrama. Without his irrational hatred of Orb (and the Athas specifically, and Kira on the side) to provide conflict, Shinn has literally ''nothing'' in terms of characterization except lots of and lots of rage. Really, in terms of responsibility for the death of Shinn's family, it goes 1) OMNI, for invading, 2) his sister, for worrying about her goddamn cell phone while they're fleeing through the middle of a battlefield, 3) ZAFT, for not helping Orb defend itself against OMNI (Orb has a significant Coordinator population -- would it be too much to expect a little solidarity?), 4) Orb/Kira, for not being awesome enough to defeat OMNI. It seems like what they were ''going'' for was Shinn believing that Orb's aggressive neutrality was naive and unsustainable as foreign policy (given how much they tend to get their asses kicked, he might even have a decent argument), but what it came out as was "YOU'RE STUPID AND I HATE YOU!". Really, the biggest annoyance about the whole thing is that Shinn never has anything to say about what Orb ''should have'' done instead. His entire argument is "YOU SUCK AND I HATE YOU FOR GETTING ATTACKED!" Would he preferred that Orb ''surrendered''? I can't imagine his Coordinator family being treated particularly well under OMNI occupation... |
| 138 | ** It's a little more complex than that. If you take into account some of his lines earlier in the series, it makes more sense. He calls the Athha's hypocrites, and later yells about how he and his family believed in Orb and its ideals, and what they got for it was being killed. Now keep in mind that in the previous war Orb helped the EA create the GAT-X units, then later allowed the Archangel into their territory and helped them in exchange for the natural OS, while telling ZAFT to piss off. Both those incidents broke Orb's third ideal "We will not intervene in the conflicts of other nations" in order to feel better about their second ideal "We will not allow another nation to attack us", as well as breaking their policy of neutrality. Essentially, he feels betrayed because he and his family believed in the ideals of Orb, yet Orb couldn't follow its own ideals. That's why he says that he'll never believe their (Athha and Orb's) lies again, because they promised to stay out of the conflict, they didn't, and his family wound up paying the price. He hates Orb more than the EA for that reason, the EA didn't betray his trust the way Orb did. |
| 139 | *** Except that neutral nations are allowed and ''expected'' to deal with both sides of the conflict they're neutral in. That's what neutrality means. Orb helping OMNI develop the GAT-X series (though IIRC it was an Orb-based defense contractor rather than the Orb government in and of itself) is ''not'' a violation of neutrality. Neither is allowing the Archangel into Orb territory. Besides, why the hell would being nice to OMNI (as in both those cases) make it ''Orb'''s fault that OMNI attacked them? Shinn's rage is horribly misplaced. |
| 140 | *** That is breaking neutrality. If we assume that the same rules regarding neutrality that exist today are the ones imposed in the Cosmic Era, giving the Archangel sanctuary is violating neutrality. In the event that a belligerent nations troops reach neutral territory, the neutral nation is required to intern them, no ifs, ands, or buts about it. It is one of their responsibilities as a neutral nation as defined by the Hague Convention of 1907. A neutral nation is not allowed to hide one sides troops and give them aid, nor are belligerent armies men and material allowed to be transported across neutral territory. Granted, naval vessels of nations involved in the conflict can use neutral ports for 24 hours, however the Archangel was not even attempting to make port, and the neutral nation is not allowed to hide the fact that said warship is in port. Now, as for how it's Orb's fault that they got attacked, it's very simple. Upon committing a non-neutral act, the neutral (well, formerly neutral) nation forfeits all protections afforded to them as a neutral nation. Essentially, by committing a non-neutral act, Uzumi put a giant target on his nation. Then there's his actions afterwards, where he refuses to let the EA use Orb's Mass Driver (which was all they originally wanted before his constant refusals irritated them and they handed down the list of unreasonable demands), and he turns down an offer of alliance from ZAFT, either of which could have saved his country had he not suddenly decided to be neutral again. Apparently for Uzumi, breaking neutrality to save his daughter was okay, but breaking neutrality to save his nation from the situation his original breach of neutrality caused wasn't okay. Shinn's rage isn't misplaced, Orb (well, technically Uzumi) broke their neutrality, created a horrible situation, and then suddenly decided to cling to his ideals when the situation went to hell in the aftermath of his original screwup. Combine that with Orb's actions in Destiny and small wonder he hates them. |
| 141 | *** I think you're confusing different kinds of neutrality. A nation neutral in a conflict between two other nations is a TruceZone; everyone's allowed in as long as they play nice while they're there. What you're describing is TheNeutralZone or a demilitarized zone: a contested territory where ''no one'' is allowed to go, in order to prevent a conflict from breaking out. Orb never wavered from the first type of neutrality until Yuna & Co in ''Destiny'', and they never even pretended to the second type. Shinn's anger at Orb is a sign of his immaturity -- he ignores the reality of the difficult situation they were in and hates them for failing to be perfect, because that's easier than admitting that the world is a harsh place and bad things happen to good people sometimes. |
| 142 | *** There is no differentiation between different types of Neutrality in International Law. If we assume that the same rules apply in the Cosmic Era that apply now, Uzumi broke: Chapter 1 Article 2: "Belligerents are forbidden to move troops or convoys of either munitions of war or supplies across the territory of a neutral power." This crosses over with Chapter 1 Article 5: "A neutral power must not allow any of the acts referred to in 2 to 4 to occur on its territory." He also busted Chapter 2 Article 11: "A neutral power which receives on its territory troops belonging to the belligerent armies SHALL intern them, as far as possible, at a distance from the theatre of war." I emphasized shall to highlight that this is not optional, they are required to intern belligerent troops, not give them aid and let them go like Uzumi did. So, Uzumi broke two of his responsibilities as a neutral nation. "Bad things happen to good people" my foot, Uzumi deliberately broke his neutrality, knowing damn well what the consequences would be. He later tries to stick to the neutrality that he had already broken, passing up two good opportunities to possibly save his country, one by just letting the EA use the mass driver instead of constantly refusing and pissing them off, the other turning down ZAFTs offer of alliance. Shinn being angry because Uzumi was a piss-poor leader isn't being immature, it's putting the blame right where it belongs, on the back of said piss-poor leader. |
| 143 | *** You're trying to apply technical definitions from real-life treaties to a fictional universe that takes place an unknown-but-large amount of time in the future. I hope I don't have to explain why that's silly. ''Within the context of the story'', Orb remained genuinely neutral. The fact that they might not have fulfilled the real-world legal requirements for it is irrelevant -- I doubt that the writers knew the legalities of it when they wrote the plot, and it's clear that it's supposed to be the mean, nasty OMNI wrongfully persecuting the righteous and principled Orb. Besides, Shinn never actually takes the stance you're attributing to him that I recall -- he just sort of yells at Orb, blaming them for his family's death without ever explaining ''why'' he thinks it's their fault. I see that as being indicitive of the fact that he doesn't really ''have'' a reason -- he just blames Orb because it's most convenient for him. |
| 144 | *** Do we ever see any other treaty ever being invoked? It's clear that there are laws regulating neutrality in the Cosmic Era, and unless you can come up with some other treaty that the Cosmic Era abides by, we're forced to assume that the same laws that govern neutrality today are the ones in place in the Cosmic Era-sort of like how we accept the fact that there are laws regarding murder, theft and a whole host of other things that are never explicitly shown in the animation. Unless you'd like the claim that because they're not shown they obviously don't exist or have been changed in the "unknown but large amount of time in the future". Within the context of the story, Orb still gives aid to one side while refusing to allow the other side to even dock, all while lying to said other side about the fact that they're harboring and giving aid to aforementioned one side. Orb is not being neutral no matter how finely you want to split the hairs. Shinn outright states that "we believed in the nation, and in your SO-CALLED ideals, and in the end, they were killed at Onogoro". That pretty much spells out that he feels that the Athha's didn't follow their own ideals, and that his family got killed because of that breach of neutrality. |
| 145 | *** No, that spells out that ''Shinn'' thinks that. Given that it's Shinn, who's probably the single least objective person in the CE universe on that particular subject, I feel no need to take his word for it. Laws about theft and murder are simple and widely understood; laws about conduct of warfare are neither. The whole point of Orb is that they stuck by their principles; the ''writers'', at least, obviously believe that Orb didn't violate their own neutrality, otherwise nothing about Orb's characterization in the second half of Seed and the first half of Destiny makes sense. Instead of trying to insist that Orb are actually the bad guys based on applying real-world laws to a fictional universe, thereby throwing out basically everything we're told about them, I find it much easier to accept things at face value as presented in the series: Orb was neutral, and OMNI invaded them anyway. |
| 146 | *** I can swear that I wrote "he FEELS". Orb did not stick by their principles, unless you consider giving aid to one side of the war as following "we will not intervene in the conflicts of other nations". You don't even have to apply real-world laws, although I did do so, giving aid to one side while telling the other side to piss off is not neutral no matter how you want to slice it. "The writers obviously believe that Orb didn't violate their neutrality" give me a break. You are ignoring what actually happened onscreen, i.e. Orb breaking neutrality by giving aid to one side and not the other, then lying to said other side about giving the first side aid, so you can argue a subjective viewpoint that "they didn't betray their neutrality because otherwise their characterization doesn't make sense". I'm not saying that Orb was necessarily bad, however they were not innocent little victims, and they definitely had a hand in bringing their eventual fate upon themselves. What is at face value is what actually happened onscreen, which is Orb breaking neutrality. Instead of going on about what the writers feel or characterization or anything else, why don't you answer me a simple question. Tell me how giving aid to the EA and not to ZAFT, while bold-faced lying to ZAFT about giving aid to the EA, is in fact not violating neutrality. And no "it's in the future, we don't know" or "the writers obviously feel", explain, in an objective manner, how that is not violating neutrality, and if your explanation stands up to analysis, I will concede the argument about Orb's neutrality. |
| 147 | *** Orb itself may not have even been involved in the creation of the G-weapons. Instead the cooperation Mongenrote (or something like that) was what built them and the Archangel. Governments are not immediately responsible for the actions of companies in them unless they are state-owned. And let's face it, Orb is a tiny island nation that got crushed like a bug even with the Freedom, the Justice, and the Archangel helping out. I'd wager that if the Orb government did know about the G-series then it was because the EA told them "Help us or build these weapons or we'll come in there and make you build them". Uzumi was probably just trying to keep as many of his people alive as possible. We saw that he was perfectly willing to sacrifice himself, but I doubt he'd willing take his country with him. |
| 148 | ** While you ARE technically correct there is one problem with the arguement. Shinn himself does not know about any of that. The secret Gundam deals and sheltering AA was not publically known. So Shinn really is going essentially "I hate you cause you got invaded" with little justification as to why he can hate them beyond them not having the strength to resist a total invasion. For that matter, the Gundam deals and AA thing aren't mentioned by Azrael either. They could possibly say "we're attacking you because you're picking and choosing your neutrality, and therefore your neutrality is BS" but they never do. Just "We need a Mass Driver. Give it to us and join the EA or else." For all this talk about Orb's non neutrality despite it technically being true, nobody in series ever calls them out on this and the invasion is always shown to be an "evil and unfair" act against them. |
| 149 | *** Exactly. Regardless of whatever actions Morgenroete (a non-government company, which apparently also had subsidiaries in the EA) may have secretly taken, ''Orb itself'' is still considered to be openly neutral. It's very likely, though, to be a case of PlausibleDeniability: It's shown that the government has ties to the company (case in point, Athha blowing up the main Morgenroete facility to take the mass driver out), and Morgenroete's goal was explicitly to use the EA to gain the ability to create mobile suits for Orb's own use, so it's highly likely the entire situation was designed specifically so Morgenroete could be scapegoated if any of the covert events were exposed. The only real question is how much the government knew about Morgenroete's shady dealings before being called out on them. |
| 150 | ** Congrats. You just made something from Destiny make sense. Pat yourself on the back for a job well done. Seriously :). If it's an issue of feeling betrayed, then I can get it. Even if the Earth Forces are responsible for the attack, there would have been no attack if Orb and the Athha's had not betrayed their ideals (although neither Cagali nor her father knew about the Gundams until it was too late, but Shinn doesn't know that, and likely would not believe it anyway). It even explains why he was so anxious to attack them during the search for Djbril. Once again Orb betrayed their so-called non-interference ideals, this time to protect a vile villain. As far as he's concerned, they deserve everything they get. Of course, in his Athha hate, he probably didn't consider how many new Shinn Asuka's he created in the process. Plus, it really was his families own fault for still being so close to the battlefied, when they were supposed to have been evacuated beforehand. |
| 151 | *** There are many factors that may come into play about orderly evacuation given time constraint and resources constraint. For example, some people may have been given priorities (elderly, the sick, small children, pregnant women, etc may be ordered to go to nearby shelters, while healthier people can travel further and thus ordered to evacuate by ships), distance may decide priorities (people with homes closer to estimated combat zones may need to evacuate first, people with homes far away from combat zones are told to stay in their house, etc). Another possibility, Shinn's parents may work for the government, so they evacuate at the very last after helping all other citizens evacuate or maybe they just unlucky at the lottery so they were chosen to evacuate last. In short, it's most likely NOT their fault that they evacuate so late. To me, it's Orb's fault that Shinn and his family have to walk through combat zones just to get to their ships. Orb should have planned/secured better routes for evacuation. |
| 152 | ** Rewatching the compilation movies for Seed, it occurs to me that Orb was going to be attacked no matter what from the moment the Panama mass driver fell. The earth Federation forces needed a mass driver in order to be able to send their forces into space. Once Panama's was destroyed by Zaft, only the ones in Orb and Africa were left. Zaft controlled the Africa one. If Orb capitulated then Zaft would have had to attack them, and they would have lost their nutrality. And it seems that once a nation is part of the Federation, they don't let them leave easy. Just look at what happened to the European Union in Destiny when the decided they didn't want to keep fighting Zaft. And the Astray Manga's show that something similer happened with South America. That's why Cagalli's father wanted to be able to develop their own mobile suits and have their own military power. Basically Orb gets stuck being in the middle of two Superpowers that are run by nutjobs. |
| 153 | |
| 154 | * Why does ORB seem to hold the idiot ball? Early they state that they don't want to see the nation burn again and let the EA pressure them into an uneasy alliance despite that the obvious outcome is ether A) getting into a war with Zaft, (Which happens later.) Or B) EA betrays them, proceeds to 'burn' the nation again... It seems like the best solution should have been to join forces with Zaft and launch a preemptive strike on the EA... Judging from most of the conversations Cagali has trying to talk them out of it plus their history with them, they seem perfectly aware of the EA being bastards.... |
| 155 | ** The Orb Union had three choices, Join the Earth Alliance and be destroyed by ZAFT, Join ZAFT and be destroyed by the Earth Alliance, or stay neutral and get destroyed by the Earth Alliance since they would think that if Orb did not join them against the enemies of humanity then they are allied with the enemies a.k.a. the PLANTs. Orb's destiny when "Break The World" happened was destruction, so they joined the Earth Alliance to help with the disaster recovery and to prevent Orb from burning for as long as possible. They were screwed from the get-go so they tried to prevent it. |
| 156 | ** I think a lot of people are also missing a very big piece of the puzzle here. That being DURANDAL. The man's a master propagandist, and it's likely that he gave Shinn some version of what actually happened that spins Orb as the villain and simultaneous endeared him to Shinn. Something along the lines of "Oh, you lost family in Orb? My deepest sympathies. But if they hadn't betrayed our trust and sheltered our enemies, then decided to cling to their precious neutrality to spite us, then the whole mess could have been avoided. But no, the stubborn Ahtha family refused to see reason, and went so far as to attack us." Thus he sets himself up as a good person, frames Orb and Cagali's family as the cause of it all, and swings the emotionally volatile ace to his side. |
| 157 | |
| 158 | * Why did ORB repair Kira's freedom gundam, but not rebuild Athrun's Justice gundam? Freedom gundam's repairs seemed somewhat secretive and it shares most of it's design with Justice, the main difference being weapons and the backpack, which don't look like they'd be hard to duplicate. I imagine things would have went quite differently if Athrun had his Justice gundam at Armory one, or in his fight against Kira, maybe even his escape from Shin and Ray? (Savior maybe newer, but Justice gundam was still stronger considering it was nuclear powered and better armed.) |
| 159 | ** ... Because the Justice self-destructed inside GENESIS. |
| 160 | *** Freedom took some heavy damage and they repaired it, so they probably could have rebuilt the Justice. |
| 161 | *** There's a different between heavy damage and self-destruction. I mean, look at the Strike and Aegis. Aegis self-destructed, Strike was just damaged. Which one was rebuilt? |
| 162 | *** Also Freedom's torso (and thus it's special nuclear reactor) was intact. Justice detonated its reactor, and while they could have possibly built a new Justice frame they'd be lacking its NJC and nuclear reactor to power it, which are illegal so probably very hard to get or make. They could have built it with a regular battery, but considering Freedom was locked away in a hanger that required two simultanious key turns to open, they clearly weren't planning on making frequent use of it, and probably hoped never to again. So building a gimped Justice probably never crossed their minds, or did but they figured it wasn't worth the effort. Plus Kira never wanted to pilot again. It's possible they intended that if anyone would be using Freedom it would be Athrun and Kira could have a break. But he wasn't there when they needed it so Kira had to do it. |
| 163 | *** Justice was used as a nuclear bomb, it would have been completely atomized. Rebuilding the Justice would mean starting from scratch, which is what happened when the ''did'' rebuild it as the upgraded Infinite Justice Gundam. |
| 164 | |
| 165 | * Why doesn't Durandal make use of his ace pilots from the previous war such as Dearka and Yzak? Sure their gundams were outdated, but he could have at least given them suits better then a couple of zakus. (Yes, Yzak upgrades to a gouf later, but by that point the goufs were being mass produced. He didn't have to give them nuclear gundams, but at least something around the Impulse or Saviors level would have been reasonable.) Or hell, instead of trying to KILL Athrun and giving him a damn good reason to leave Zaft and go AWOL, why not just transfer the two of them to the Minivera to try and comfort him into staying? They could have helped give Athrun a morale boost to keep him with Zaft AND helped train Shin/Ray/Luna to battle Kira, since they both have experience at fighting him. At times it actually comes off as though Durandal was TRYING to get Athrun to desert, like when he told Athrun he was being upgraded to Legend Gundam, which is obviously based on providence. It's pretty obvious he'd always intended to give it to Ray, given the whole Ray being a clone deal... |
| 166 | ** The ''Minerva'' is Durandal's ace in the hole. He's already got one former traitor, Athrun, on board. He doesn't need to add two more. Secondly, Athrun is the easiest of the three to manipulate, by playing on his daddy issues and desire for peace. Yzak and Dearka don't have gaping holes like that in their defences. They've tried to fix their lives, Athrun really hasn't. Finally, they don't bring the celebrity that Athrun does to the cause. Having Athrun around gives him both a war hero, and testimony that Meer is the "real" Lacus. Yzak and Dearka don't bring that to the table (can you imagine [[HairTriggerTemper Yzak]] going along with a deception like that?), and in Yzak's case, he's probably more valuable where he is, as a commander. Make him a frontline soldier again, where he's not responsible for lots of other people's lives, and he might start wondering if he's on the right side again. |
| 167 | *** Maybe Yzak and Dearka were originally meant to be the full-time (as opposed to testing) pilots of one of the three stolen Gundams. Dearka would probably get the ''Abyss'', and Yzak the ''Chaos''. |
| 168 | *** A character called Mare Strode was confirmed to be the designated pilot of the Abyss rather than Dearka. |
| 169 | *** Also look at what happened in the final battle. The two defect back to Kira and Lacus side. I may be wrong, but I think the two were already members of Terminal. As stated above Durandal doesn't have the same way to manipulate Athrun. Also Durandal was hoping that Athrun could lead him to Lacus and Kira. He can take the risk of giving a powerful Gundam to Athrun, but it's not worth it to do so for Yzak and Dearka. Maybe the better question is why didn't Terminal make some new suits for them? |
| 170 | *** It's stated that Terminal had no contact with them. In fact nobody Durandal or Terminal actually knew what side they were really on as they were officially with Zaft, but weren't Durandal loyalists as seen when Yzak reprimands one of his men for blindly praising Durandal's regime without actually thinking about it. As a result Durandal put his squad in the back line away from the fight (but Yzak used his commander's authority to head to the front anyway), and Terminal didn't bother contacting. As it turns out, they opted to side to with Terminal in the end despite the episode trying to imply they choose the opposite. In fact Yzak seems annoyed that Lacus wouldn't assume he and Dearka weren't on board with their plan. |
| 171 | |
| 172 | * Now that we know that most of the interviews are just results of misconceptions by the {{fandom}}, there is still some things about Mitsuo Fukuda's messages on Twitter I've heard recently. Like saying that Morosawa's cancer is actually a depression and that he didn't like that Creator/KenichiSuzumura and Creator/MaayaSakamoto (who respectly voiced Shinn and Lunamaria) are married. Is that true? |
| 173 | ** Here's the source of [[http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=3726417#post3726417 Fukuda's original Twitter post]]. I can't read Japanese, so take it for what you will. As for Morosawa's cancer, I've been skeptical of this (if she was ill, shouldn't she be recovered at this point?), and I believed that Morosawa is going through a Creator/HideakiAnno[=/=]Tomino (circa Victory Gundam)-esque severe depression phase. |
| 174 | ** Thanks for this. And, as for the tweeter post, I thing the actual reaction is surprise. As the post says here (as translated) "I always knew Maaya has her eyes for someone. But I never thought that it would be with Suzumura. Looks like I was mistaken there." The post also sees the two following tweeters but are not translated. So maybe it's something totally unrelated, or Fukuda dealing with a frustrated fan (it happens many times). So, my guess is more him being surprised than jealous or angry. |
| 175 | ** IIRC, Morosawa has ''both'' depression and cancer. It seems that she had ovarian cancer and had to get a hysterectomy some years ago; if it's true, then it's NOT surprising that she's depressed as fuck. |
| 176 | |
| 177 | * Why in the world would ORB still have political arranged marriages? Royalties of many nations have the right to marry whoever they want today, much less how many centuries into the future GSD is. I understand that Cagalli might have been severely pressured into accepting the marriage instead of telling Yuna to shove it, but the marriage should have no legal right to exist since they were promised to each other as ''children''. I can't accept the whole 'Save Cagalli from Yuna' subplot at the beginning because it makes just as much historical sense as Cagalli having a harem. |
| 178 | ** Orb's "leadership" is a conglomeration of the 5 families that make up Orb, that's why. |
| 179 | *** Also drama seeing as how Cagalli was the head of her family (was there anyone else alive?) and had little reason to accept since the end result would be the same regardless. |
| 180 | *** And? That doesn't change the fact that an arranged marriage should be an arachic relic by the take GDS takes place. Especially since Yuna was actually using sexism to pressure her ('be a proper lady'), which is even ''more'' arachic. Considering that ORB has been shown as an advanced and progressive society, this doesn't make a lick of sense. |
| 181 | |
| 182 | * How was Luna a red coat when she is a lousy shot? Why was she given long range support all the time if she was so bad? |
| 183 | ** Lunamaria HAS shown some competence from time to time, such as being able to one on one the Gaia Gundam, in her ZAKU, using primarily close range. I believe also, WordOfGod states, the reason for her bad aim wasn't due to lack of skill, but due to having a genetic defect that caused her shooting hand to shake some. Perhaps she was given ranged support to mask her weaknesses. Or since ZAKU's use wizard packs, similar to Strike packs, it was the only pack available so she had no choice to use it. And finally, she isn't the first character to wear red, to fail some shots at dire times. |
| 184 | *** A ''Coordinator'' with a genetic defect? That doesn't make much sense. |
| 185 | *** Yeah it does actually. It was a plot point that Coordinators would frequently have defects thanks to the instabilty of developing in an uncontrolled enviroment (the mother). That was why the project to make Kira the Ultimate Coordinator, was started in the first place. Plenty of Coordinators have defects. Gai Murakumo's sidekick Elijah has Coordinator mental abilities but not physical ones, while Riika Shrider is genetically blind and needs a eye device to see. |
| 186 | ** The twitch that interferes with Lunamaria's aim with hand weapons is also similar to the result of a too-jerky trigger pull. |
| 187 | ** Its stated that she was in the same class as Shinn, so they should be on about equal grounds piloting-wise. Its possible that Luna is equal to Shinn in piloting skill, she is just not in a suit that is able to take advantage of that (we don't really see much of her piloting in the Impulse). Alternatively, it could be that she is bad at ranged combat (genetic defect and Gunner Zaku) but very proficient at close quarters. |
| 188 | |
| 189 | * During Kira and Athrun's meeting after the latter rejoins ZAFT, there is an odd and rather significant discrepancy between the subtitles on the DVD and the dubbed dialog with something Kira says. The subtitles simply say "I don't want to fight. Please don't make me fight." But the dub dialog is the rather pretentious sounding "I will not kill. I will not let others kill." Does anyone happen to know which is closer to the Japanese dialog Kira speaks at that moment? |
| 190 | ** I think it's "fight." In the scene Kira was telling Athrun he didn't want to fight ZAFT, he was willing to fight the others. It's weird to call out Kira for this considering in the previous fight he was just distracting the enemy to distract the enemies from the Archangel. Had he gone for the kill ZAFT and EA would have had several loses and Athrun was just bothered by the Archangel's intervention, not Kira's style. If you hear "tatakai" it's fight, if it's "kurosu" he means "kill". |
| 191 | * Considering fake interviews, is there WordOfGod we can take for granted? The most commented thing by haters is that Kira's appearances were increased due to what the fans wanted or just the staff. But what if this was what the staff always had planned? If we take Durandal's plan into consideration it would look as he was tricking people into believing Shinn was the hero just like Sunrise tricked the auidence. This could be some of the major themes of ''SEED Destiny'', manipulation and censorship, in contrast to ''SEED'' that focused on racism. |
| 192 | ** Agreed on this. There's a logical progression to ''Destiny'' as Shinn and Durandal are outed as the antagonists. |
| 193 | ** I'm guessing that what if it's a case of Fukuda[=/=]Morosawa [[TrollingCreator trolling the viewers]], and make us think that [[EsotericHappyEnding the TSA were the "heroes"]], and that Durandal was the "villain" (note the emphasis on quo) |
| 194 | *** Considering that lots of the Fukuda and Morosawa interviews have been mistanslated (maybe ''intentionally'' to make them look worse than they a ctually are), I really don't know. |
| 195 | *** Its clearly not [[TrollingCreator trolling the viewers]], it's people with little knowledge of Japanese interpreting interviews to match their opinions. In some cases it's even falsifying interviews or at least their translations to make it appear WordOfGod supports someone's position. |
| 196 | |
| 197 | * How can Shinn and Luna belive Durandel when he says that Athrun and Meyrin were with Logos? Logos was (if I'm remembering right) was a part of or at least connected to Blue Cosmos which is anti-coordinator, which means there is no way in hell they'd ever have coordinator members yet Shinn and Luna buy the story hook, line, and sinker. Shouldn't they know better? Sure at first they were upset over Athrun and Meyrin supposedly dying but shouldn't they have realized they were lied to later on once the shock wore off? Shinn may not be known for using his brain but Luna at least was suspicious over the fake Lacus thing so what gives? |
| 198 | ** LOGOS as an organization is the manipulating force behind Blue Cosmos, but they aren't themselves a part of Blue Cosmos, per se (beyond Djibril, that is). Their only concern is sparking wars and conflict so that they have a market for their arms dealing. Blue Cosmos and their rampant racism is a tool for that end, nothing more. So it's not out of the question that LOGOS could have Coordinator members. |
| 199 | *** At the time series aired, many fans pointed out that Durandal's press conference revealing the existence of LOGOS showed a lineup of the members' photos some thought had an empty spot (granted, it's more likely that LOGOS simply had an odd number of leaders) and speculated that ''Durandal himself was the missing member'', which would explain how he knew about the organization in such detail. |
| 200 | ** ''On the other hand'', it would definitely be a stretch to link Athrun and Meyrin to them. For Shinn it makes a certain amount of sense: he's been thoroughly enthralled by Durandal at that point and he's never liked Athrun anyway. Meyrin was a severe shock but he never really seemed close to her. Luna on the other hand probably was suspicious, but... well, when your Head of Government says something like that, it's either true or there's something very fishy going on with the top brass, and it would be very unwise for a mere soldier to confront them about it directly. My guess is she planned on looking into it but the war was taking up her attention for the time being. |
| 201 | *** Seems like she temporarily lost herself in grief. Since she was going on about how it was all Orb's fault and Athrun would have been a perfect loyal Zaft drone if he hadn't gone there after the war. She probably couldn't deal with the thought that they'd all been wrong and just gotten her sister killed so she accepted the Durandal story that everyone not part of Zaft was Logos. Once she finds out Meyrin and Athrun survived she starts to get her clarity back, culminating with her trying to stop Shinn from getting Athrun in the finale. |
| 202 | |
| 203 | * What exactly is Kira's point about Durandal using a fake Lacus and why does Athrun have no response to it? That's easily his most defensible decision. The ''real'' Lacus had just spent possibly the entire two years after the last war living with Kira in seclusion. As far as can be told she wasn't doing anything to work for a government, go on goodwill tours or do ''anything'' to actually help keep the peace. Who is Kira (who also spent those two years sitting on his ass and doing nothing) to criticize Durandal for (as far as Athrun and Kira know) creating a fake to send a message of friendship to keep the Coordinator population from rioting (as they nearly did before her first appearance)? |
| 204 | ** Because he was also using Meer to root for Zaft victory and the cheer on the soldiers to go kill all the EA guys by the time they had the conversation. The real Lacus Clyne NEVER endorses war as anything other than an unfortunately necessity. Using her image to promote Durandal's war as a great thing is essentially a slap in the face to everything she stands for. That Meer acts like a stereotypical happy popstar (while harboring WAY more confused thoughts on the deal itself), vs the real Lacus's more conservative outfits and graceful solemn singing didn't help. Athrun knows this too, which is why he's shown to get increasingly uncomfortable with Meer as time goes on. Meer's endorsing of Durandal's personal agenda, and attempt to demonize Orb only made it even more clear that Durandal wasn't going to just use her to promote peace - not to mention, Meer herself becomes increasingly conflicted and unstable. |
| 205 | |
| 206 | * Considering that any prejudice with Naturals and Coordinators would have been resolved at the end of the first season, how was it that Blue Cosmos still had as much influence to sway the government and the populace into wanting all-out war again on the Coordinators following the Junius Seven colony fall, considering Azrael was a flat-out nutcase who shot those among his own kind when push came to shove in his desire to wipe out all the Coordinators? |
| 207 | ** For one thing, Azrael's actions at the end of ''SEED'' aren't public knowledge, given that the entire crew of the ''Dominion'' is dead. Secondly, Djibril, unlike Azrael is not a public figure. He's working through political figures that Blue Cosmos already controls; the public don't even know he's there. As for his control of the political system, ever tried removing an entrenched political group from a bureaucracy the size of the EA? Decades after the USSR fell, they're ''still'' finding old Soviet supporters in the bureaucracy; it isn't unrealistic at all that in the two years since the end of ''SEED'' most of Djibril's supporters have stayed in place. |
| 208 | ** The crew aboard the Archangel was witness and listener to this act, the group having developed ties with influential members of both the Orb Union (Cagalli) and Coordinators (Lacus, Athrun) by that point in the series. You would have thought anyone within those parties would have spoken out and presented evidence about Blue Cosmos' corruption and their influence upon the Earth Federation, which would have knocked down the reception of the government in the eyes of the human populace down a notch with their not so ethical actions among even those of their own kind, especially with the Federation military having left the Archangel crew to die during the Zaft attack on the Alaskan base during the first series. |
| 209 | *** You are correct in that but none the less the AA crew all went into hiding and just hoped everything would get better (though in all fairness none of them knew about Logos). They did more or less outright admit that them running off and leaving the world to clean up after itself was a mistake born of their selfishness for wanting to recuperate and get over their various trauma's from the events of SEED, and that's why they all stayed in the spotlight this time, after Destiny's ending. In series anyway. The out of series reason is that Bandai demanded a sequel to Seed due to its success despite Seed not being written with a sequel in mind, AND they wanted it not long after SEED so all the (extremely popular and pretty much the reason for SEED's success) surviving characters could return relatively unchanged appearance wise. So they suddenly had to rewrite it so the war would flare up again, and had it so that the Seed cast didn't ensure the peace stuck. |
| 210 | *** So pretty much, a case of MoneyDearBoy in the eyes of Bandai? No wonder this season has more holes in logic compared to the first one. |
| 211 | *** More or less yes. Bandai finally hit paydirt on a Gundam series that was rivaling UC in popularity and quickly went all in to make Seed the new UC so to speak regardless of the fact that it was never intended to be, with them ordering Destiny to be their Zeta. Hence them wanting a Kamille in Shinn with Athrun being his Quattro. Which actually clashed with Fukuda and Morosawa's plans, as they apparantly just wanted more adventures of the big 4 from Seed, and didn't want a new hero (and most of the Seed fanbase in Japan agreed with them). Hence the production problems. Bandai seemingly learned their lesson, as 00 and Geass were split into two seasons to give them more time to work the story out and edit it properly, and in the case of Geass, despite its immense popularity they didn't force them to make a third season because they realized the plot didn't allowing and undoing the plot would just make it a mess. |
| 212 | ** Nothing in SEED even implies that prejudice between Naturals and Coordinators would end. None of the reasons that members of either group have for hating went away. The massive deaths and attempted genocides of SEED would even increase the possibility of hatred. |
| 213 | ** Actually Durandal letting EA expose itself for the brutes they were and them swoop in to help, and later expose Logos as forcing the war kind of did kill the racial predjudice between them, if only by uniting them against other badguys. Granted its heavily implied he only did that so earth would be indebted to him when he wanted to introduce the Destiny Plan (which ironically wouldn't actually help the racial issues at all) but still. And even before all that, you could see the racial tension had slightly improved, if only on the Zaft side. |
| 214 | |
| 215 | * I'm probably opening a can of worms here but...if Neo/Mu is a clone of the original Mu like some belive, wouldn't he have the same health problems as Rau and Rey? Wouldn't the archangel's crew have noticed this after awhile since he'd start to degrade or at least show signs of illness/weakness? Further if Neo WAS supposed to be a clone wouldn't they have shown him taking those pills at least once or are we supposed to belive that the Earth Alliance or Logos or whoever can make successful clones when they can't even get their own Extendeds to work right? Of course if Neo is NOT a clone and is in fact the genuine article,that still doesn't explain how in the hell he survived Jachine Due... |
| 216 | ** While this is largely conjecture, assuming Neo is not a clone (because there wouldn't really be much point to clone Mu), it is possible that he survived in a similar fashion to Kira in his battles, granted, he isn't a coordinator, but he was piloting an improved version of the strike, which has already shown a good record of pilot survivability in situations like this. It is possible that he could have just been very lucky, and then been picked up by Earth Alliance troops. In short, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he is not a clone, since there is no reason for him to be one. I am only saying that it is not impossible that he survived Jachine Due simply by virtue of being in a tough suit, being particularly lucky and, of course, Being the man with a knack for making the impossible possible. |
| 217 | |
| 218 | * This seems idiotic to me, but why did Shinn hand Stella back to Neo? Granted, he had concern over how PLANT would treat her. But it wasn't like the enemy was gonna uphold their promise to keep her away from battle anyway. Him lashing out at Kira for Stella's death was idiotic enough considering it was own fault for even leading up to that predicament regardless. |
| 219 | ** As far as why he lashed out at Kira, it's basically because Shinn was a hypocrite when it came to Stella. She set off his sister issues, and therefore was to be prioritized above all else, as seen by his callousness towards the Minerva medical staff (who he barely interacted with) when Stella lashed out at them and later when he beat them up to save her. So of course Kira killing her would be met with rage, because in his mind, anyone that isn't doing their all to save Stella is wrong. And you can tell he has a double standard because for all his talk defending Stella about how wrong it was for EA to force being an Extended on anyone, and how she didn't ask for this and so forth, when he fought Auel he killed him without a thought, because he didn't set off his sister issues so Shinn really didn't care. |
| 220 | *** To be fair to Shinn, Auel and Sting were *dickheads*, and I don't think anybody shed a tear for when Shinn wrecked both their sorry asses. Stella on the other hand, is about as innocent as innocent gets. |
| 221 | *** But that's only taking in superficial appearances. Stella was outwardly nice and innocent and cute and Sting and Auel weren't so it's ok for them to die but not Stella. But Stella was just as vicious in battle as the other two, and neither Sting nor Auel choose to be extendeds either. Like Stella they were taken in as children and forced into the program. They might have taken to the killing they were forced into better than her but if Shinn really cared about the Extendeds like he said he did this should have bugged him too, but it didn't, only Stella, who specifically triggers his sympathy issues does, which means he's got a double standard. |
| 222 | ** Because she was dying: PLANT doctors had no idea how her body had been altered through the drug regimen and had no idea how to treat her. If she stayed there, she would die. Neo's group does know, and would be able to treat her effectively. That was his rationale. So, yes, it was completely idiotic on Shin's part to think she wouldn't be put back into battle, but he was at least correct in thinking it was the only way to save her life. |
| 223 | ** Guess another question has to be pondered then: why was Shinn never arrested or reprimanded in any way for his actions once Durandal was killed off? He indirectly contributed to the deaths of thousands for allowing Stella to wreck havoc on Berlin with the Destroy and even while he may have realized that he was being duped, he almost killed an influential member of Orb in the form of Cagalli and got in the way of Orb, the Archangel and other resistance groups trying to prevent Durandal from wrecking havoc on the Earth. |
| 224 | ** Because Kira and Lacus let him off. Holding grudges and refusing to let anything go is what made them different from Durandal and how Shinn used to be. Same reason they let Neo off for Berlin, and promptly Yuna to ignore Cagalli leading to the Orb fleet turning on them, and Athrun for siding with Zaft other than them for awhile and stopping Kira from stopping Shinn from wrecking the fleet. This has been their SOP since Seed so no reason to think they'd change now. If you realize you are wrong, you're forgiven. Otherwise they can't really claim the high ground on Durandal. Although Shinn lost his Faith badge so he seems to have been demoted (or Faith was disbanded entirely as Durandal only really seemed to use it to give lapdog soldiers more authority to best serve his interests, or in Athrun's case, to bribe him). Or looking at in a less idealistic note, because if they called Shinn out on that (and other Durandal loyalists) they could easily be called out themselves on how they assisted inadvertently in the Requiem disaster by fighting Zaft off and letting Djbril get away, and even further back by basically ignoring Logos entirely despite their very real atrocities. Their hands aren't perfectly clean themselves mostly because they refused to play along with Durandal, even before he started doing anything questionable. |
| 225 | ** Except Kira and Lacus got hints early on before much of the cast that something was astray with Durandal thanks to his fake Lacus and the attempted assassination of Lacus that led him and others back into resolving the new conflict. And I'm not just talking about our main cast. I'm talking about any of the governments involved with Shinn's ordeals that were affected by his actions. I don't think any of Orb's officials would have taken kindly to having their newly appointed ruler almost being killed. As for Djbril, that could be excused since Kira was in the heat of battle dealing with Shinn and Lacus being a non-combatant despite her involvement with the Archangel. |
| 226 | ** Yes but the thing is, Kira and Lacus are still on thin ice. Quite a few people, especially in ZAFT whole heartedly supported Durandal, and therefore they have to be lenient to everyone lest they look even more like unlawful usurpers who conquered Plant with a foreign (Orb) army. Because that's basically what they did. Hence they can't just make an example of Shinn. Nor do they want to. They want Shinn on their side. As far as Shinn killing Orb soldiers and attacking Cagalli, if Cagalli herself gives him a pass, the Orb officials have no choice but to accept this. The only other people that suffered at Shinn's hands were Logos or Logos supporters who basically have no grounds to complain about anything. So Shinn's pretty much in the clear since neither Lacus nor Cagalli want to throw him under the bus, even though they could. |
| 227 | |
| 228 | * At the end, Shinn just joined up with Kira. Mu was Neo, who (hopefully on orders from above that he had to follow) stuck Stella in the Destroy, who Shinn loved as a surrogate sister. Is there any official word on the Shinn/Mu dynamics going forward? Does Shinn never make the connection, do the two never meet, any Word of God on this? |
| 229 | ** As of what we've seen so far, Shinn is working with Kira and Lacus on Plant while Mu is with Athrun and Cagalli in Orb. Thus far they've never met, and as far as Shinn seems to be concerned Neo died in Berlin and he's never laid eyes on Mu. And that's all we've gotten thus far. |
| 230 | ** Although the canonicity of this is dubious there was an audio drama set sometime after Destiny where Mu and Athrun take Shinn out to dinner in order to coach him on having to work with Kira. Shinn finds Mu's voice oddly familar but his jovial attitude means he doesn't make the connection while Mu himself opts not to volunteer that information about him. Athrun meanwhile is seemingly unaware that Mu/Neo was the officer Shinn had encountered and made to "promise" back then so he also doesn't say anything. |
| 231 | |
| 232 | * Why do several newer mobile suits use larger, higher powered beam rifles? Normal or even pistol sized beam weapons already have the power to OneHitKill mobile suits, but the big ones still aren't enough to break shields, and we've never seen them used at greater range which would give them an advantage. They still lack the WaveMotionGun power or range that justifies the size of the real big guns. It seems like deadweight to have a bigger gun if small ones are just as useful. |
| 233 | ** The Windams were designed for DeathFromAbove, which would give the range advantage a justification. Maybe the range would be useful against mooks but the AcePilot main characters are skilled enough to close the distance to the point the advantage is lost. |
| 234 | ** This redundancy may be why future Gundam series would feature less extravagant armaments. |
| 235 | |
| 236 | * Is it just me or does the Destiny Gundam's seem like a step back. It's effective armament is all handheld and its palm blasters, so it can only use two weapons at a time when other Gundams, even the Impulse it upgrades can use several. Even the Destiny's prototype the Destiny Impulse had both the Impulse's {{BFS}}s and {{BFG}}s but the Destiny only has only one of each. And why does it have a physical shield if has a beam shield in each hand? And the omission of the Core Block System means it loses an advantage that let it defeat [[TheDreaded the Freedom]]. This MasterOfNone status has caused it to lose against all the Gundams if fought, which are exactly the priority threats you'd think the Destiny would be expected to counter, and even let a mook machine briefly hold against it. So what's with the apparently poorly thought out arsenal? |
| 237 | ** FragileSpeedster. Its gimmick is the power intensive "Wings of Light" which lets it overwhelm opponents via speed which more, heavier equipment and a Core Block System would interfere with (the latter is why the Destiny Impulse [[FlawedPrototype stayed a prototype]]). As for the shield, Shinn had luck throwing it then ricochets a beam off it at an unsuspecting foe, which bring me to the main problem, [[WorfHadTheFlu Shinn's deteriorating mental state meant he lost the use of creative tactics that the Destiny and its arsenal were designed for]]. |
| 238 | *** Having a physical shield available, specifically, also allows it to block attacks without expending power on its beam shields. This, in turn, allows it to save more power for its Wings of Light and BFG, which ties into the aforementioned gimmick. |
| 239 | |
| 240 | * What are the protrusions on the ends of the Infinite Justice Gundams shoulders? They're not beam boomerangs like the original Justice nor do they contain extra thrusters. Do they even serve a practical purpose? |
| 241 | ** [[RuleofCool Because it looks cool?]] [[WildMassGuessing Or maybe they're supposed to be sharp so that he can stab Phase Shiftless enemies with them?]] |
| 242 | |
| 243 | * What exactly about the Strike Freedom makes it a ''Strike'' Freedom? Its new elements don't really have anything to do with the Strike (really, the Destiny has more similarities with the Strike than the Strike Freedom does) and some of the older elements than linked the two suits have been removed (such as the yellow portion of the Freedom's v-fin setup being identical to the Strike's). And if they were just going for ThemeNaming, why isn't the Infinite Justice called the Aegis Justice? |
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