Line #96 Headscratchers/JusticeLeagueDoom


1	* Anyone else bothered that Superman just outright killed Metallo?
2	** Not anymore than I am by him "killing" Ace. They're robots. Being decapitated doesn't kill them.
3	*** Metallo is not a robot; he is a cyborg, a human made into a machine. Its possible he survived though, but he should still be more vulnerable to actual death than any robot. Maybe Superman just wasn't in the mood to play nice.
4	** I seem to recall that Metallo ''can'' survive decapitation (given that what little humanity he still has is in his head) and Superman undoubtedly knows this.
5	* Why does Batman have loads of contingency plans aimed at his own allies, but apparently has next to none aimed at ''the villains'', who are already "rogue threats to humanity?" If Batman were as obsessive about preparing for the day Mirror Master or Bane show up at Wayne Manor, Savage's plot wouldn't have gotten started.
6	** Batman does have a plan for dealing with the villains: It's called him, and every other hero on the planet. He doesn't need a special contingency plan for those because that's his regular job.
7	** Throwing a batarang at the Joker's face and setting up Superman to get shot by a kryptonite bullet or drugging Wonder Woman so she dies of exhaustion is not the same thing. The fact that it takes so few twinkling to turn his plan into an assassination for his friend while for his rogue gallery it's wait until they break the law then punch them hard is really worrying.
8	*** Those plans are slow, need setup, and rely just as much, if not more, on the surprise factor as anything else. It's good for taking down any member of the League ''once''. But if you intend to take them down, throw them behind bars, and then have to take them down again? "Throw a batarang" is a lot more reliable.
9	* How did Vandal Savage know who Batman was? I don't think he's ever known who Batman was in any story.
10	** In Tower of Babel, it's Ra's al Ghul who takes out the League, so they probably just kept that plot point for the purpose of convenience. Besides, he's an immortal supergenius, so the vast majority of people wouldn't question it.
11	** Bane knows Batman's identity (except in some adaptations). Maybe Savage's plan was just "pretend to steal something very valuable for Batman to take him off-guard" and Bane knew exactly what.
12	** This is after Bane "broke the Bat", remember--so it might well be known to Savage that Bane knew who Batman really was, if Savage didn't know himself. Savage's plan for Batman may have simply amounted to, "Let the guy who broke Batman's back figure something out."
13	** Savage knew who Batman was before he ever met Bane- this is explicitly shown in the movie. The reason he knows is because, as mentioned, he is an immortal supergenius, so it's not a stretch to imagine that he could figure it out.
14	* If the average speed of the earth through space is somewhere around 67,000 mph, what was the worry about the flare? Wouldn't GL delaying the flare give the Earth enough time to simply get out of the way?
15	** It's safer to assume Vandal Savaged timed the flare as he's taking into account the 8 or so minutes the flare would take to reach the earth at the speed of light. A bigger headscratcher is how fast Superman is since he pursues the missile all the way to the sun AND makes it back to earth with the whole 8 minutes window intact. Suspending disbelief a bit; it's not a problem of science but ethics; yes they could let the flare just "barely" scorch the Earth, but they are heroes, they have to look for the solution where no person gets maimed or killed and that's what they do. It bothers me more that we are shown the warhead having several missiles in it; and just one is powerful enough to trigger a solar flare strong enough to get the results Savage wanted; I was left wondering if the full missile payload would have incinerated the whole planet.
16	** Considering Savage's plan wasn't just to create a solar flare using missiles, but also use the original rocket to create an electromagnetic path for the flare to follow towards Earth, it makes sense. It's also a good thing he made a device to make his base intangible, since by that logic the Hall of Doom would have been ground zero for the end of the world.
17	** What confuses me is how the missile reached the sun so quickly. If it takes LIGHT over 8 minutes to get from the Sun to the Earth, shouldn't that missile have taken centuries to make it from Earth to the Sun?
18	** Superman is clearly at pre-Crisis levels in this movie. Not only is he faster than light, but he's not kidding when he suggests that he might simply move the Earth out of the way of the flare.
19	*** Well since the DC Universe is set 20 minutes into the future, its likely he had some lightspeed technology, the only problem is that how Superman manage to chase it, I know Superman is faster than a speeding bullet, but their is a difference from supersonic to LIGHTSPEED!
20	*** Superman is obviously moving as fast as or faster than lightspeed, as made clear several times on this page. "Faster than a speeding bullet" is irrelevant and simplistic.
21	** The whole plan required a massive amount of handwaving for it to work, along the lines of Superman's "pushing the planet out of the way" silliness. What was approaching the planet that would do the damage wasn't light from the flare, but particulate matter, which travels much slower and the electromagnetic field from the rocket is not capable of accelerating it to light speed. Basically for the plan to work it would require the EM field to be stable for at least a a decade (not gonna happen), the flare remaining hot enough to scorch the surface of the planet during that time (just no), and no one doing anything to stop it (clearly not).
22	* This may sound like a rant, but how did the kryptonite bullet penetrate Superman's skin? Shouldn't the bullet have just shattered since he hasn't been exposed to the kryptonite long enough to affect his powers? At least in WesternAnimation/SupermanBatmanPublicEnemies, one could argue that because he was exposed to Metallo's kryptonite battery for a period of several minutes, the bullet could work. But in this film, Metallo doesn't expose Superman to his kryptonite battery until ''after'' he's shot, so how did it work?
23	** In some of the comics, kryptonite has much of the same toughness as Superman himself, as a result of undergoing whatever process caused Superman to gain his powers. I have no idea whether or not it applies here, but it's a suggestion.
24	** Kryptonite bullets always penetrate Superman's skin, regardless of continuity. It doesn't just affect his powers, its outright poisonous to him, and it never takes long for the powers to be affected anyway. Its always instant.
25	* Batman's contingency plans were made in case the Justice League went evil or were mind controlled. But the plans all involved the heroes either being good or putting innocent lives in danger. For example, the plan against Flash wouldn't work unless he was noble enough to risk getting caught in a trap. And the plan against GL was specifically targeted toward his guilt. So wouldn't this mean that the plans were not in case the League went evil, but simply so that it would be more convenient for Batman if HE decided to go evil? Well remember Batman said the plans were meant to immobilized them not kill, so Savage probably tweak the plans a bit.
26	** Thats a problem in the comic as well; presumably Batman just had a different method of getting to the heroes and both Vandal Savage and Ra's Al Ghul are willing to play dice with the lives of innocent people, and found that easier. The GL thing might play on his guilt even if he turned rogue, or it might just have had a different effect that still sapped his willpower. The bigger problem, which again was in the comics, was that plans themselves were pretty damn evil, like the one against the Flash actually put innocent lives at risk not as part of the implementation, but inherently- if Flash was evil, or BrainwashedAndCrazy, he might decide that letting a entire city die just to spite someone is fair trade; the Martian Manhunter's fate was something Batman wouldn't wish on his own worst enemy, while with Franchise/WonderWoman the plan required her to beat up scores of innocent people before dying, several hours later, of a painful heart attack.
27	** Yes, these plans all seemed to have been completely based on Batman going rogue and taking out the Justice League, not a member going rogue. If any of the members had actually turned, the ones that were designed to take advantage of their nobility (Superman, Flash, Green Lantern) wouldn't have worked, and getting the others into position for the plan to work depended on them being in their normal state (if Manhunter had become evil, for example, he wouldn't be at a bar accepting drinks from strangers, for example). Only Wonder Woman's plan would have possibly worked on a villainous character.
28	** Batman clearly states that his plans were altered. The plan for the Flash was all about putting a device on wrist that would have forced him to keep running until he was exhausted. Wonder Woman's was all about fighting endless waves of enemies (that could have been robots or something) until she tired out. Some of them would still have been cruel, like burning Martian Manhunter or playing on GL's guilt, but both can be done without hurting others. But all of them can be done without putting innocent people in danger or relying on the hero's goodness.
29	*** How exactly do you put a device on the fastest man alive if he actively wants to kill you, how can you do anything if any of those are already rogue and ready to level cities. Even in Forever Evil Batman's plan still needed some new trick that some didn't make sense because his plan her wouldn't work on EvilCounterpart.
30	*** In most cases, the set-up was the most significant part of the plan. Surely Vandal Savage didn't need to hack the Bat-computer to realize that using Kryptonite on Superman is a good idea, for example?
31	*** It's not that easy to make as viable bullet out of a rock, it's possible what was stolen was the method of making the bullet.
32	*** Vandal saw the process of cutting with rocks to surgical laser, surely he knows more than batman about how to make bullet.
33	*** In the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JLA:_Tower_of_Babel JLA: Tower Of Babel]] story this was based on, Wondy was trapped in virtual reality, fighting an endless battle. In fact, ''all'' of the countermeasures in that story seem to put less innocents at risk. Incidentally, [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJVvrmLSTsg here's his audio log with the plans]], from DCU Online. Note that it also includes ''him''.
34	*** Because Martian Manhunter on fire wouldn't cause property damage when he freaks out. Also notice how his plan for himself includes hurt a civilian? Even his plan against hinged on him still be a good guy at heart.
35	** Did you really think ''Batman'' would only have one plan for everyone, especially when there could be so many reason how and why the others would turn?
36	** Remember, Batman is often implied to be at least a little crazy himself, possibly as a result of Gotham being what it is. This may have played into some of the plans' less-thought-out aspects. It may also explain why he expects them to remain noble even if they turn; he may be incapable of imagining that he would become unconcerned with the lives of innocent civilians even if he turned to evil, and may project this onto his teammates as well.
37	* Savage's plan involved all electronics more advanced than the steam engine being shut down, so why is Metallo just going along with this? Wouldn't he die if this plan succeeded?
38	** Metallo would have been protected from the EMP by the base being intangible.
39	** For that matter, why'd he set the cut-off at the steam engine? Would an EMP disable the spark plugs in internal combustion engines?
40	*** As a matter of fact, yes. Tests have been done with {{EMP}}s) on internal combustion vehicles without computer systems and the pulse burns out the plugs. Steam engines by contrast do not rely on anything electrical so they would survive. That said, Savage also simply presented it as an example.
41	* How was Superman unable to notice that Metallo... was Metallo? Even without X-Ray vision, with his super senses he should have noticed something was off. And since he was trying to talk the man down, you'd think he'd at least be trying to monitor his vitals, breathing, heart rate and blood pressure to see if he's making any headway.
42	** Two explainations for that: 1) Superman didn't bother to check the guy's vitals, since he knew him, or 2) Metallo could have a system for making it appear that he has a heartbeat or blood pressure.
43	* 1) How is it that Lex Luthor doesn't know anything about this? 2) Did Savage always look like [[http://marvel.com/universe/Shaw,_Sebastian Sebastian Shaw]]?
44	** 1) Savage doesn't want Lex to know, so he doesn't- Lex might be smarter than Savage, but Savage is smart enough to render that moot; 2) Yes, DependingOnTheArtist.
45	* What part of Vandal Savage's plan required the Justice League be alive? If not all of the League at the very least finishing Batman off would have been less than child's play for Bane. Supes was in no position to fight off Metallo, I doubt Wonder Woman could have stopped Cheetah if she'd stood by and waited but maybe she could have, Green Lantern would have been easiliy killed if Star Sapphire had stuck around an extra five minutes or so. Is there any reason aside from villians never finish the job that the Justice League survived this meeting.
46	** It wasn't Hal Jordan they needed to neutralize, it was his power ring. If Hal died, the ring would just find someone else to wield it.
47	** Well, if Savage was smart he would WANT the Justice League around. I mean, sure he is a [[CompleteImmortality true immortal]] but the others could easily incapacitate him and take over his empire. He may have planned to have the JL alive to keep his underlings in line, or simply take them out, leaving the who world for him.
48	** It is possible the answer is 'none of it'. Not actually finishing off Batman there and then might have been ''Bane's'' decision (he wanted to break the man...), both Metallo and Cheetah would have been at risk of being stopped by more regular forces if they went for a kill (and both Superman and Wonder Woman were well on their way to dying anyway -- if Cyborg hadn't shown up, they both ''would'' have died), Martian Manhunter might not have been killable given the available resources and situation, and Vandal Savage may have overestimated just how much Star Sapphire wanted to truly kill Green Lantern (given her implied love/hate relationship in the movie itself and their relationship in the comics).
49	** Also, recall that there was a throwaway line from Savage back at the Hall of Doom after the victory toast where he said that his plan required the Justice League, "out of the way", specifically either dead ''or'' incapacitated. From what was seen at the end of the movie his missile launch essentially needed twenty or so minutes of non-interference to go off as he wanted it. After that, whether the League was alive or not really wouldn't have mattered since half the planet was dead. It does become an issue for his post-apocalypse plan though, as any survivors of the League would certainly oppose him out of spite if nothing else.
50	** Really, if anyone is to blame for the failure of the plan, its Savage himself- he should have launched the missile the moment the Justice League were incapacitated (and pull a YouHaveOutlivedYourUsefulness on his minions), but he wanted to offer these criminals a chance to rule the world with him (even though none of them usually go after something like that, and probably wouldn't make very good rulers). Mostly he seemed to just waste time because he was oh-so-confident that his plan would succeed and the other villains would appreciate his genius.
51	*** Savage mentions that there's a particular one-hour window where he can launch the missile. He couldn't have launched the minute the League were incapacitated and have the plan still work.
52	*** That could still count against Savage, though, since he could simply have timed his murder of the Justice League better. Or, of course, come up with a different EvilPlan- its hard to see how he benefits from ruling over a smoking, burning wasteland and he might actually end up killing ''everyone'' by accident. Of course, that could be handwaved by pointing out that he's crazy.
53	*** To be fair, it's a lot easier to assume power when the previous power structure has already been destabilized, and Savage has been around for millennia, so he knows the value of patience. He clearly doesn't mind spending some time rebuilding the planet so long as it's under his rule.
54	* So the plot starts when Vandal Savage buys a piece of tech from Lexcorp that he gives to Mirror Master to use on the computer in the Batcave and steal Batman's secret plans for taking down the Justice League. How did Savage know that these plans even existed in the first place?
55	** It's not crazy for Savage to assume that Batman keeps files on the JL members on his computers. He was probably just trying to find weaknesses, and stumbled upon Batman's contingency plans.
56	** Or, Savage just assumed Batman has secret plans for taking down the Justice League because of his CrazyPrepared-ness.
57	* Is there a reason why our heroes pair off to fight their villians aside from plot contrivance? (And I mean this not just in this movie but whenever these team ups happen) It seems to me that at the very least Superman fighting Metallo is stupid when Wonder Woman, Green Lantern and Martian Manhunter are all comparable strength wise and not allergic to green rocks. Any of the four heroes mentioned already can just reach out and bitch slap Bane while Batman does something important like, I dunno, stop a missile launch.
58	** Every hero knew their own respective Rogues and their weaknesses better than the other heroes. Green Lantern was more experienced at fighting Star Sapphire than Wonder Woman, for instance, so pitting Wonder Woman against Star Sapphire, with such a short time window, would have been way too risky a move.
59	* Given Cheetah's entirely accurate point that Vandal Savage's plan would make her money useless why didn't the Legion of Doom take him down. Most of them are a tad bit crazy but not kill 3 billion people so I can get better parking crazy. There wasn't a person in that room who couldn't take Vandal one on one and easily at that. He's immortal, unkillable. He doesn't seem to have any other powers and the end of the movie seems to suggest that locking him up and throwing away the key is a viable plan. This whole "you're not leaving us much choice" bs is just that. BS. Any one of them could have stopped him and stopped him with ease. Especially on a plan that had a narrow window but even long term I think Star Sapphire for example could drop him off on the moon and see how long it takes him to figure out how to get back.
60	** The money was worthless, but he was offering them the chance to rule the world as kings and queens, and clearly all of them found that appealing and some moreso than others. Also, they didn't do it just for the money- Ma'alefa'ak had his blood feud with his brother and probably didn't care about money; Bane wanted to get one-up on Batman and cared less about money than that; Mirror Master seemed fanatically devoted to Savage and considered working with him a promotion to the big leagues...At the very least, sure killing ''Savage'' is easy, but they had to consider that not everyone in the room would necessarily want Savage dead for that In the event, as it so happens, none of them turned on him anyway, not even when the League showed up. Plus, they might have figured he was smart and resourceful enough to have traps or hidden weapons, or some kind of back-up plan, and they didn't want to push their luck.
61	*** Not to mention, depending of how much of the comics backstories are true here, too, Ma'alefa'ak had already instigated a genocide himself, as in the comics, he killed every Green Martian outside of J'onn, himself, and very few others. It's likely he wasn't advserse to being party to another one.
62	*** They had already done that before he revealed his plan. Some of them like Ma'alefa'ak might have been just fine with the plan but most of the others still don't seem to be the type to have gone with a genocide plan.
63	** Plus, Savage is NOT easy to kill. He effortlessly took down Cyborg and Cheetah with one blow each, and even the Lasso of Truth seemed to have no effect on him. Combined with the possibility that he had various other pieces of advanced technology laying around in contingency, and it's entirely possible that none of the Legion of Doom could have beaten him.
64	*** It is possible that he did have contingency plans for each of them. Demonstrating one of them to keep the others in line would have kept this from being a headscratcher. That's what they did with Lex in Justice League Unlimited. He proved with a push of a button that he could stop any of them. Even though considering Lex does tech I doubt he did anything to say Sinestro or Killer Frost just off the top of my head, still he kept them in check. Savage being easy to kill is entirely immaterial. 99.99999% of comic book battles end with both people still alive. As was stated earlier Star Sapphire can grab him in a bubble and drop him off on the moon. It won't kill him sure but I'd love to see him build a space ship with the available facilities on the moon. Bane or Metallo could bury him alive or turn him into the authorities. You do not need to kill your opponent in order to end the encounter.
65	*** He did not take down Cheetah with one blow. He knocked her down. She gets up a second later with no fanfare and has been hit harder by Wonder Woman in the past. She was mostly shocked it seems that ripping out his throat proved non-fatal. That usually works just fine. He also didn't take out Cyborg effortlessly, at least not in a fight. He snuck up and back stabbed him. In an actual fight either one of them would have beaten him with ease.
66	* Batman's "contingency" for if he goes rogue. [[LetMeGetThisStraight Let me get this straight,]] Batman's plan for if he goes rogue or gets mind-controlled is the Justice League...the very league that we just spent the whole movie showing that Batman can kill/disable them with almost embarrassing ease. [[FridgeLogic Anyone else see the problem here?]]
67	** "Criminals are a superstitious and cowardly lot". Maybe he assumes that if he ever goes evil, then his intelligence will take a dive, as it seems to have done with pretty much all of his once-good enemies. Also, it depends on exactly what kind of "evil" he turns into, and how he turns into it- for instance, whether or not the League notice he has turned evil, whether it was a gradual turning or something sudden, what sort of villainy he goes for (eg. KnightTemplar or OmnicidalManiac), etc.
68	** I think that he meant the League as a whole. Batman can take them down individually, but working together he would stand no chance. Everyone would be covering each other's weaknesses.
69	*** So he thinks that if he becomes evil he would be stupid enough to go straight on against the League instead of using his contingency plans to kill them individually. No wonder Savage got a hold of his plans he thinks criminals are all morons.
70	** And besides, if Batman turned evil, he would already know the plan, and could make countermeasures against it. Honestly, I was surprised everyone was so upset that Batman didn't come up with his own plan when doing so would essentially be pointless. If Batman ever goes rogue, it'll be up to the Justice League. Batman can't do everything.
71	** And to add to all the above, Batman is basically an incredibly clever man with a lot of money, some fancy toys, a talent for strategy and a collection of bat costumes. The other members of the Justice League are an assortment of ''living gods''. Granted, he has his contingency plans and he probably wouldn't make it easy for them, but for all of Batman's much-vaunted planning abilities, at the end of the day he's just an unpowered man; if the five of them -- plus their assorted, also-for-the-most-part-superpowered allies -- can't eventually figure out a way of stopping him (or, in the worst case scenario, reducing him to a smear on the wall), then frankly they ''deserve'' to be defeated.
72	*** Replace Savage in this movie by Evil Batman and you'll get the idea of why this is a poor reasoning. Batman has already planned to kill them all by surprise individually why does he thinks him turning rogue implies a 180 where he became a loud mustache twirling villain? this is just him covering his own ass.
73	*** The point is not that Evil Batman would become a moustache-twirling villain; it's that he's neither perfect nor invulnerable. Yes, he figured out ways to beat the Justice League, but it's hardly impossible for the Justice League to also figure out a way of beating ''him'', seeing as he has no superpowers, the League ''do'', the League aren't idiots and no plan survives contact with the enemy for long. For all that Vandal Savage had Batman's plans, at the end of the day he still ''lost''; clearly Batman's plans are effective, but they can be overcome. For all his plans, realistically the only way that Batman vs. the entire Justice League isn't at the end of the day a ridiculously lop-sided match against Batman is if we're going a [[MarySue Full Sue]] route with added [[CreatorsFavorite creator favoritism]] and free {{Idiot Ball}}s for the Justice League to make things even for Batman.
74	** The implication is that he expects that if he turns evil, they'll kill him in cold blood, before he has a chance to do anything. Whether it be Supes sniping him from orbit with his heat vision (or a thrown pebble), J'onn destroying his mind, or anything of the sort, he expects them to kill him in a manner he ''can't'' retaliate to, if push comes to shove.
75	** As Batman himself would point out, the only reason the League was taken down so quickly was because they were all taken down in close order -- there was no time for them to realize what was going on and join forces, leaving them open for the one-on-one attacks. Batman by himself (which is more likely than getting the enture Batman Family to go along with this) simply couldn't pull off that many simultaneous strikes, and a joint effort by the League -- as the comics have since shown -- is more than any of his contingency plans can handle.
76
77	Besides, be fair: If Batman goes evil, he'll start with either his Rogues Gallery or (in the case of the Batman Who Laughs) his potentially-dangerous Gotham allies. That gives them more chances to figure out what's happening and stop him.
78	* I have a problem with the age of Vandal Savage. The first time he says: 50000 years (spent gathering money), the second time he says: 80000 years (since he gained immortality). Does that mean that he basically led his people around the world, for like 30000 years having no desire to gather any kind of "shining rocks, that looks pretty"? Or something similiar, or is it implied that he didn't realised the value of items until said time passed? Isn't he supposed to be some kind of genius?
79	** He spent 50K years building up his funds. Before that, he probably didn't have any sort of way to store assets. So those 30000 years could have been spent literally doing anything. Anything at all. Amassing short-term funds, leading people, learning stuff. How is any of this inappropriate for a "genius"?
80	** It's entirely likely that in this version of the DC universe the concepts of "property", "money", etc. didn't exist until 50K years ago. You can't accumulate wealth if it's impossible to do so.
81	** An alternate possibility is that something happened 30,000 years in that made him lose everything he had up to that point, so he had to start over.
82	* And on the same note, what does it mean - being a genius caveman?
83	** Quick thinking and adaptability? Foresight and ambition? All of these relevant skills in his past and during the story.
84	* Why doesn't Batman mention the fact that the Justice League ''just'' fought [[WesternAnimation/JusticeLeagueCrisisOnTwoEarths a bunch of evil alternate universe versions of themselves]] as a reason why it would be a good idea to make plans against people with their superpowers?
85	** Maybe Bats just thought that if the others didn't see the logic in that immediately, they already had arguments for it, so it wasn't worth bringing up.
86	*** Batman flat out states that if the Justice League doesn't understand why plans to stop them need to be in place that he doesn't belong. He doesn't need to mention any specific story since the Justice Lords aren't the only time something has happened. Superman has been mind controlled more times than most of us can count for example. There are a few evil speedsters floating around, the plan to stop Wonder Woman would work on anybody who wouldn't back down from a fight, the plan to stop Green Lantern would (with a few tweaks) work just fine on Sinestro and probably on Star Sapphire. The only plan that doesn't seem likely to work on a similar hero with some minor changes is the plan to take down Batman.
87	*** Well then the League was just being GenreBlind.
88	** Thats was an alternate continuity. For example, in this one, Cyborg is the first new member they let into the League; in the previous, the film ends with them considering a whole bunch of new members. Different voice actors, slightly different animation, different backstory for the Martian Manhunter etc. Also, it wasn't simply their abilities- it was them, personally, that he had plans against, including attacking them via their particular psychological weaknesses. Some of the plans wouldn't have worked and besides, the Crime Syndicate were not direct {{Evil Twin}}s- they were different people, with slightly different powers and weaknesses, and histories and capablities (eg. Superwoman wasn't an evil Wonder Woman, but an evil Mary Marvel; Owlman was not an evil Bruce Wayne, but a different man entirely, etc.)
89	*** Actually, if you look during the opening of "Doom", you can see some footage from "Crisis on 2 Earths"
90	*** Cyborg being the first new members isn't true; during Batman's confession of creating the plans, he said he studied all League members "''past'' and present." This means that there were other members in this universe's League before this movie.
91	* I get why Bane doesn't kill Batman instead of burying him alive. But why didn't he break his back again before putting him in the coffin? Or at least break his arms? Bane knows better than ''anyone'' how tough Batman is. Crippling him before burying him would have guaranteed that he wouldn't have been able to escape, that he would die a slow death from suffocation while pinned against his father's corpse while in excruciating pain. Bane isn't the kind of guy who goes for half measures; there is no reason why he wouldn't have done this.
92	** Maybe Bane still hadn't gotten all the Joel Schumaucher out of his system.
93	** Also, Bane spent most of his life in a box - a prison, for the sake of the father he never met. Putting Bruce in a box with his dad would seem like a poetic death. It's also kinda what he did in ''Rises''.
94	* Did anyone find the plan to take out Wonder Woman kinda odd? The idea of it being that Wonder Woman is actually beating up civilians who she sees as Cheetah, but the only civilians who actually attack her are the police, and that was in a different location. Now if you assume that when that first group came up to her, mainly because she was a celebrity, she thought they were attacking her and she responded. But after that first attack, wouldn't the rest of the group run away? Also, this entire plan holds to the idea that Wonder Woman wouldn't just stop and try to figure this out. She is an intelligent woman, surely she would think at some point in the fight "Why are there so many clones of Cheetah? Let's see how many there are" and just fly away.
95	** Considering how one of her major enemies is Circe, this probably happens to her more often than you'd think.
96	** Well, the nanites were messing with her brainstem. Even when she sees "Cheetah" acting out of character, using holograms, and sprouting weapons out of her hand, she still rationalizes it away.
97	* Behold as I use my villainous super-genius to improve the anti-Justice League plans depicted in this film... 1. Wonder Woman: use a deadly poison instead of one that causes hallucinations 2. Green Lantern: use a deadly gas instead of one that causes hallucinations 3. Superman: shoot the Kryptonite bullet at his head 4. Batman: shoot an ordinary bullet at his head 5. Flash: just make the bomb go off immediately and without warning once it's attached to his wrist. I'm just saying they didn't have to be so elaborate, is all.
98	** 1) poison wouldn't work on Wonder Woman, those hallucinations were caused by nanobots attached to her brain, not poison. 2) the ring would have found another wielder. 3) its happened, effectively has the same effect. Superman's skull is rather hard 4) Bane did what he did for personal satisfaction. 5) that plan actually seemed pretty solid, no one felt any need to alter it. Besides both savage and mirror master probably found the idea rather amusing.
99	* Why did Superman give Batman the kryptonite bullet? It's touching and all, but he should know full well that Bats would not use a gun. Hell, there was another piece that Cyborg had.
100	** You don't need to use a gun to hurt Superman with kryptonite. You just have to wave it near him.
101	** I figured that the implication was that Batman would carve the bullet (using a laser or something) and embed part of it into a ring. Thus, he'd have the kryptonite ring that he typically has in the comics.
102	*** But he already ''had'' some kryptonite of his own, making the bullet redundant.
103	*** The kryptonite is symbolic: Batman already has kryptonite, sure, but the gesture shows that Superman is willing to trust Batman to take him down if the need arises.
104	** Batman not using guns is subjective at best. Lets ignore the older comics, let's pretend that 1989's Batman didn't have a Batmobile with machine guns. Batman has been shown as more than willing to use projectile weapons like darts on people in need of various cures or tranquilizers. Batman's aversion to using guns seems to hinge on two main things, first whatever technicality he uses to justify to himself that dartguns aren't guns and the NoKill rule. Superman has proven resilient enough to Kryptonite that it might not do more than put him down (like in this very movie or Batman/Superman: Public Enemies. Really that stuffs not really great at killing Supes) and in the event of a rogue Superman it might not hurt for Batman to have access to a tool that COULD kill Superman if he felt he had no other choice.
105	*** The older comics wherein he uses guns are always poor material to reference, and anything with Bats using ''machine guns'' falls squarely under CharacterDerailment. Dartguns are exceptions, but this is a legitimate bullet. Guns that fire bullets are things that Bats hasn't used for years. The reason it didn't kill Supes is because, along with Bane not killing Bats for plot purposes, and the reason why Metallo didn't shoot a more vital area (at point blank range with a distracted target), or use (or have?) more bullets is the same: contrived plot convenience. That, and possibly because the bullet is so small. If the no-kill rule was all that was stopping Bats, he'd be taking a lot of Jason Todd-style leg shots, given how effective guns are. While the kryptonite itself is symbolic and it ''is'' a heartwarming scene, that could be any kryptonite, not one in the shape of a bullet.
106	*** The Bat, Tumbler and whatever the motorcycle is called in the Nolan Trilogy all have guns and missiles. Batman's aversion to guns is far less than 100% and he's given his aim with projectile weapons he probably knows how to use a rifle just fine, he just chooses not to. Batman's NoKill rule seems to extend to no intentionally maiming if it didn't Batman could easily do things to guys like Joker that wouldn't kill him but he'd never walk again. However the giving Batman a kryptonite bullet instead of brass knuckles or something might be quite intentional since he knows Batman has hang ups about it.
107	*** Remember that in the comics at least, Batman was willing to shoot Darkseid in order to stop him from corrupting all of reality. Could be that Batman figures that Superman going bad -- being, let's face it, a potentially very similar "the entire world is doomed" scenario -- is one of a few rare, extreme and unlikely-to-happen last-ditch exceptions to the "no bullets" policy.
108	*** I actually recall reading one comic (art by Alex Ross) where Superman is under Brainiac's control) and Batman defies his no-gun policy to stop Superman with the Kryptonite bullet Clark gave him, then remove it before it could kill him. Besides, [[BatmanGrabsAGun don't we already have a trope for this?]]
109	* Batman has the best security almost in the entire universe. His cameras picked up Mirror Master, he mentions that because he was in hologram form that the motion censors had nothing to pick up on. He makes no mention of adjusting the cameras to a special wave length or anything so his security system isn't connected to his cameras?
110	* Wonder Woman is intimately familiar with Cheetah. How did she not figure out she was hallucinating? Not only because the first batch Cheetahs were mostly if not all civilian which meant they didn't strike first but once she did start striking they must have equal parts gone down like chumps and ran like hell and even amongst the best trained of the police I'm sure none of them moved or fought anything like Cheetah. If she'd been dosed with Scarecrow Gas like Kyle it would make sense but as far as we can tell she was just seeing things.
111	** Is it really a mystery why someone who has been subjected to a brainwashing process specifically designed to make them think and act in an irrational way might not realise she's thinking and acting irrationally? And that if she did question it, that would make it a pretty pathetic form of brainwashing? She doesn't engage in this logical and rational process of figuring out what's happened to her that you describe because her perception and thought processes have been completely distorted and ''she's not thinking logically or rationally''.
112	*** She wasn't "subjected to a brainwashing process specifically designed to maker her think and act in an irrational way". Cyborg says outright that the only thing the nanobots are affecting are her hearing and vision -- making everyone look like Cheetah, and making everything they say come to her in Cheetah's voice.
113	*** Sorry, but I think you're being a bit pedantic here. I fail to see how it is possible to alter someone's perceptions to make them think that everyone around them is the same person and still have them be considered as thinking rationally. No matter how she got there, that is an entirely irrational state of mind to be in. It might not be strictly brainwashing (although that also seems kind of pedantic -- it's the same basic idea, even if 'nanobots' did it), but the point is that Wonder Woman's mental functions have been altered to place her in a state of mind that is far from rational, and she doesn't question her situation rationally because she's currently not capable of thinking rationally.
114	*** An additional point: Mirror Master is also in this movie. AKA the guy who can make hardlight doubles of himself to attack you with. So given the confirmed existence of guys who can make an army of clones of themselves in quick order, it's really not ''that'' irrational for Wonder Woman to think Cheetah's doing the same.
115	*** Except for the fact that, well, Cheetah isn't Mirror Master and has never been suggested to be able to do anything like that whatsoever. In any case, since that's still clearly ''not'' the case, Wonder Woman is still arguably acting irrationally, since the whole point is that her senses are being distorted to persuade her to accept as real something which is clearly not real. Her ability to clearly and rationally determine what is real has been affected and distorted by an outside source, so it shouldn't be entirely surprising that her thought processes are similarly distorted.
116	*** Whether or not Cheetah has been able to do so before isn't the point. The point is that what Wonder Woman was seeing wasn't far fetched or impossible from her point of view. Villains, like heroes, come up with new powers and gimmicks all the time, and if the heroes can team up and borrow one another's powers, so can the villains. Hell, this story ''starts'' with a team of villains having a chunk of technology they explicitly didn't have before and couldn't have developed on their own.
117	*** Fair enough, but my point is that ultimately, it doesn't matter whether what Wonder Woman is seeing isn't far-fetched or impossible from her point of view, because her point of view is completely distorted by an outside source and thus is completely unreliable. Whether she can justify her actions to herself doesn't necessarily make her or her actions rational, because the functions of her mind have been altered to make her act irrationally. The reasons why Wonder Woman thinks the people she's attacking are Cheetah might be rational on some level, but that doesn't make her actions or thought processes rational because the people's she's attacking ''are not Cheetah'', and are not ''going'' to be Cheetah no matter what bullshit logic she might be using to rationalise what's happening to her. Put simply -- she is attacking people because she thinks they're Cheetah, no matter how clear it is in reality that they are ''not'' Cheetah, so any reasons she might devise to justify this to herself are in service of a completely irrational conclusion no matter how rational they might seem to her. In any case, none of this serves to challenge the original response to the OP's conclusion, which is that she doesn't logically come to the conclusion that none of the people she is attacking are Cheetah because she is currently incapable of reaching that conclusion, because her thought processes have been distorted.
118	*** Essentially, Wonder Woman has been forced into believing a false premise. The steps to reaching this premise might be rational if looked at in terms of pure logic, but that doesn't mean that believing the conclusion is also rational, because the conclusion is clearly and demonstrably false.
119	*** It might not even be that she's "forced." Cyborg even asks how what she's seeing can be possible, and while she says she doesn't know, her tone adds, "And I don't care." She sees enemies, she fights them -- she's not going to question it much, because she's a warrior and thinks that way.
120	** If you think thats what it means to be a warrior then you clearly understand very little.
121	* Why didn't Batman specify "I deliberately designed my contingencies to be nonlethal, Savage modified them to kill you" at the hearing, and not just to Superman? This seems like a fairly obvious and simple clarification to make.
122	** It wasn't an important detail in Batman's opinion. The movie ends with the League preparing to take a vote over if Batman should remain a part of the group or not and he responds that if they are too stupid to understand why someone needs to have a plan to take any or all of the Justice League out in case of emergency that he doesn't belong.
123	** I recall that he actually ''did'' bring it up. That wasn't really the part they were mad about.
124	* Right after Martian Manhunter pulls the kryptonite bullet out of Superman's chest, the bullet wound and incision immediately heal shut... except Manhunter is still holding the bullet right next him. Shouldn't he have stayed injured until they put the kryptonite in a lead box. At the very least, there should have been a "Oh, kryptonite!" moment, but Supes is completely unaffected.
125	** The kryptonite bullet is apparently too small to effect Superman by mere proximity. They needed a Kryptonite scalpel because Superman's regeneration in this story is so strong that he'd healed around the bullet, presumably if it wasn't so close to his heart he would have been very inconvenienced but not close to death. As is mentioned elsewhere on the page this Superman is clearly at Pre-Crisis ridiculous OP. He's capable traveling faster than the speed of light as evidenced by him beating the solar flare back to Earth (and specifically noting he had 8 minutes to do so which is the time it takes light to reach us from the sun. Later he suggests that he could push the Earth out of the way of the solar flare and Batman tells him that it's a bad plan. Which suggests that it's within Superman's capabilities to move the entire Earth in Justice League Doom.
126	* Related to the above question, how did the "focusing Cyborg's cannon through kryptonite" trick work? Cyborg fires white sound through his cannon, yet this scene would imply that it's a laser.
127	** Because it ''is'' a laser. Cyborg has multiple tools, and we see him use a laser canon when he first confronts Wonder Woman.
128	* Doesn't Carol Ferris/Star Sapphire have a family on earth? I can't see her being okay with genocide.
129	** I guess she was too caught up in the moment? It's not like she can't move to space, anyway.
130	** Star Sapphire is effectively a separate personality. Carol Ferris doesn't care for genocide; Star Sapphire, her persona under mind control, doesn't care so much.
131	* At the end of the movie Superman asks Batman how he could be so arrogant as to think there shouldn't be a plan to take him down and Batman replies that the Justice League is his plan if he goes rogue. Which is good and well except for the part that the tapes show he does have a plan for himself and Bane uses the plan. That's why Bane takes his parent's bodies. Why not say there is a plan for me?
132	** Because that isn't Batman's plan for him. That's something Vandal Savage (and in the original story, Ra's Al Ghul) came up with on his own.
133	*** [[https://youtu.be/ZJVvrmLSTsg?t=4m45s Not really.]]
134	** And a clip from a totally different work is irrelevant to this one.
135	* Isn't giving an immortal life in prison without possibility of parole ''by definition'' a cruel and unusual punishment, and therefore ''illegal''? The fact that the Justice League didn't bat an eye to this sentence strikes me as odd. Sure he's a really sick fuck, but ''infinity''? Not the thousands or ''maybe'' millions of years he deserves, but an ''infinite'' punishment for a horrible but still finite crime?
136	** "Life" does not actually mean "life" in legal terminology; he'll probably be locked up until he appears to have redeemed himself / humanity has advanced to the point he is less of a threat / he breaks out of prison. Really they just mean "indefinitely".
137	** In practical terms, every society and civilization eventually collapses. Vandal will outlive any authority that sentences him and that sentence only carries weight so long as the authority is around to impose it.
138	* Why Ma'alefa'ak and Star Sapphire would care about Savage's plans since they have the power to travel across the universe and take over any planet they want?
139	** Mal seemed to like Vandal Savage's style and had no problems with his plan. Star just wanted revenge on Hal, so neither of them had any reason to leave
140	* It bothers me that Superman and GL both seem faster than the Flash. They both are clearly dozens of times faster than light , just going by their space shenanigans. Flash clearly is much slower than light, considering he didn't circle the earth several times each second that he was running at top speed and the fact that ice propelled from an exploding iceberg was actually able to touch him. What gives?
141	** I don't think he was actually running at his fastest speed. He knows that the faster he runs, the smaller the room his speed has. So he'll start off slow, and will start running faster. It's not unreasonable to think that he CAN run faster than the speed of light (hence Speed Force), but he just chose not to do so.
142	** Flash isn't trying to get anywhere fast except "away from people." Circling the globe several times a second means that a portion of his time is spent in the middle of cities and populated areas. Going just fast enough to keep the bomb from going off is a tactical choice. Besides -- do you always sprint? No, nobody is always going their top speed. Flash wasn't going several times the speed of light because there was no reason to.
143	* So...did the old lady in the train die? Mirror Master says she would be automatically killed when the timer ran out. It's still very audibly counting down after the bomb gets strapped to Flash's wrist and he runs off. So did she die? Was Mirror Master lying? I don't think it's ever explained or resolved.

Context Headscratchers / JusticeLeagueDoom