| 1 | * Why the heck would Connor and Duncan Macleod still remain such devout Catholics when it is the hate and xenophobia of said religion that caused both warriors to become homeless exiles and reviled monsters by their own people? |
| 2 | ** Okay let's get something straight: the hate and xenophobia of men and women who were afraid of what they didn't fully understand drove them away. The religion and the beliefs themselves did nothing. |
| 3 | ** Where are they shown to be Catholic? I've seen the first film and the majority of the TV series, and I don't remember any scenes where they pray, go to church (except for the Holy Ground protection, obviously), or anything else particularly religious (even Connor lighting that candle in the church before talking to the Kurgan isn't much to go on). |
| 4 | *** During a flashback in the episode "Reluctant Heroes", Queen Anne describes Duncan as Catholic. |
| 5 | *** The fact that Connor remains in the church for a while before the Kurgan shows up implies he is still somewhat religious. |
| 6 | *** In the first film, it's "tradition" that keeps the immortals from fighting on Holy Ground. They consider a catholic church to be Holy Ground, which implies that they're catholic. (Though heck, maybe a mosque would also count as "Holy Ground" for the purposes of the tradition. Maybe the ground just has to be holy to ''somebody''.) |
| 7 | *** Holy ground means ''any'' holy ground. They just usually use Catholic/Christian churches in the movies and TV series because there are a lot more of those and more of them have lenient filming policies, and/or it's easier to replicate the general style of one for a set. |
| 8 | *** Plus the iconography is recognizable to a wider audience than other holy ground. If they meet at someplace less recognizable, they'd have to keep explaining that, while if they meet in a Catholic Church, the camera just has to pan past the pews and the crucifix to get the message across. |
| 9 | ** And is it really "the hate and xenophobia of said religion" that make them exiles? It's not only Christians that have been known to react to the unknown in that way, and among Christians, the Church has taught for most of its history that demons and pagan gods don't have enough power over nature to work such magic, unlike many sects and splinter groups. |
| 10 | ** They're not necessarily Catholics. It's been pointed out that ''any'' "holy ground" is considered a no-no for fights, no matter which religion or whatever claims it as such (which does raise questions about religions that claim the ''entire planet'' as holy, but that's neither here nor there). It's been speculated (by the Watchers, no less, a group who, almost ever since Immortals came about in the first place, have had a stalker-esque obsession with recording every minute detail of the Immortals) that the only known time two Immortals did go all the way to a Quickening on holy ground was around 79 A.D., in a little out-of-the-way place called Pompeii. See [[http://highlander.wikia.com/wiki/Holy_Ground here]] for a discussion on holy ground, as well as a way it was apparently subverted (EarlyInstallmentWeirdness, there, possibly). |
| 11 | ** Duncan is shown praying in a church in at least one episode, and during his dark quickening he drags himself into Darius's old church and essentially begs God for help. |
| 12 | ** Because they believe in the teachings of Catholicism. |
| 13 | |
| 14 | * I'm just going to run with the holy ground thing a moment. Who enforces these rules? Outside of "it's tradition," what reason would a guy like the Kurgan bother to listen to the holy ground rule. Especially at the end of the film in the church where one quick whack would have ended the game for him. I'm sorry, but I don't see a guy like him giving a holy damn about tradition. |
| 15 | ** Perhaps there's some force that compels them -- psychologically, mentally, physically even -- not to fight on holy ground, even the truly whacked out ones like the Kurgan? A force that can, in extreme cases, possibly be resisted (see the Pompeii note above), but some kind of force nonetheless? It might have something to do with the Quickening. |
| 16 | ** Plus, the Kurgan at that point wants to mock and torment Macleod. He wants to make Macleod suffer so that his eventual triumph will be all the sweeter, and to psych him out so that he's off his game. Remember, it's Macleod who gets his blood up in the church, and the Kurgan who tauntingly reminds him that they're on holy ground. |
| 17 | ** Also, some people who don't care about the rules of a game will still follow them to prove that they don't need to cheat to win. The Kurgan seems more like that sort. |
| 18 | ** A lot of Immortals are WAY older than modern people, and likely come from a time when "Wrath of Gods/God" was something much more present in people's lives. Even if you take a purely atheist stance, to a people who didn't understand weather patterns, germ theory, plate tectonics, and so on, any kind of natural occurrence a modern person would explain scientifically ''had'' to be the wrath of a vengeful deity. And in a setting with beings who live forever and steal each other's power by decapitation, it's not that much of a stretch to imagine that there ''is'' some kind of divine force at work. Even The Kurgan might be terrified of the potential consequences of violating that rule. The fact that there may well be dire consequences for fighting holy ground are alluded to both in the Pompeii story from the TV series and the bit in Highlander 3 where Kane and Connor are fighting in a Buddist shrine. When Connor's sword breaks, a glass pane shatters at the same time for absolutely no reason, revealing a Budda statue, incense, and so on. That could have been the cosmic equivalent of a warning shot, a divine force saying "Knock it off, guys, or something ''really'' nasty is about to happen." Note that Kane backs down immediately after this. |
| 19 | ** There's also PragmaticVillainy to consider. Even Mr. Perfect Warrior might need a place to rest and recharge for a few years, or just flee to if a fight goes south on him. If it gets out that Kurgan doesn't respect Holy Ground, then no one else will in regards to him either, and he's just lost his ''only'' safety net. |
| 20 | ** For what it's worth, [[https://archiveofourown.org/works/1066624 this crossover fic]] (warning for slashiness and high rating, but most of it is a perfectly good, gripping story) makes an excellent stab at a practical explanation, taking the Pompeii mention and running with it in an interesting world-building direction. |
| 21 | ** When we watch Highlander 3 when Connor and his enemy try to fight on Holy ground an apparition (similar to the one we see give Connor the Prize at the end of the first film) appears and stops them. |
| 22 | * It's common knowledge (among the immortals, anyway) that they can only die via decapitation. So why do you never see one wearing, like, a big honking steel collar around their necks? |
| 23 | ** Because that would be painful and restricting. Plus their swords fire lightning so wearing a large metal ring around your neck is a good way to get shocked. |
| 24 | ** Swords fire lightning? What the F are you talking about? They probably don't because it's not sporting (and besides, if they get incapacitated, their opponent would just take it off anyway. Notably, the Guardian in ''Highlander: The Source'' actually ''does'' wear a big metal collar. (I remember watching it and thinking, "Oh that cheater.") |
| 25 | *** He's trying to explain the weird lightning-y shit that happens when The Quickening takes hold. Two reasons I can think of why no big steel collars: one, the Immortals are meant to not be drawing attention to themselves, because men "can feel them, try to drive them away". And there's no rule against ambush; you're safe only on holy ground. Therefore you have to walk around looking like [[VideoGame/KnightsOfTheOldRepublic Darth Malak]] all day - not very subtle. Two, a metal collar is actually a hindrance rather than a help because it makes you less able to turn and move your head, and it also gives your opponent a larger target to aim at. Medieval plate armour wasn't just the metal, it was about three layers of padding and leather beneath it. That wasn't to prevent chafing; it was to try and stop a really nasty tactic as follows: you don't bother going for a vital point, you just swing the blade of your sword straight at the guy's chestplate. The blade might not penetrate -- but it does stand a good chance of carving through the armor and ''pushing the metal of the chestplate into any wound you cause''. From that point on, with every movement you make, the folded-in edges of the ruptured plate tear your wound further open. |
| 26 | ** With all the disadvantages a big (non-magical) metal collar would have, why not use a titanium chain-mail cowl? Or something that is more resistant to shearing and breaking than wired steel, at least. Regular chain mail wouldn't be too useful, but if you had a strong enough material (especially with the padding underneath), it could be a great help (and you would really only need the padding around the neck, and slightly above/below to avoid slipping, since immortals probably get used to pain ''really'' quickly and easily heal anywhere that isn't the neck). |
| 27 | ** And in the series there was a guy who wore a mask that incorporated a collar that protected his neck. It still didn't save him. |
| 28 | ** besides the oponent can always just gut them and take off the neck protection before they regenerate. dealing a blow that shuld be deadly for mortals almost alweys broght a victory to the dealer in the series. |
| 29 | ** Nevertheless, it at least couldn't ''hurt'' to have a chain mail scarf, at least as long as the metal wasn't right up against the skin. Say chain mail inside a layer of cloth to disguise it. Perhaps it would be considered unsportsmanlike or something. Or even illicit: have all the rules of the game been revealed? |
| 30 | ** You're all missing the Occam's Razor: It wouldn't do you any good because your opponent could still cut you ABOVE or BELOW the coller and your head would still come away from your neck. |
| 31 | *** A properly designed collar would easily prevent that. And even if it didn't, some protection is better than none. If I were an immortal I'd rather force my opponent to radically alter his tactics and fighting style to get around my neck armor (possibly giving me an opening to take his head) than just leaving my one weak point wide open to attack. |
| 32 | ** It's strongly implied that immortals follow some code of honour. It's possible that said code prohibits them from using any neck protection or it's just considered to be a humiliating sign of cowardice among them. |
| 33 | *** Several immortals have been shown in the series to cut up an opponent, before going for the head. Being centuries old, and presumably having learned proper swordsmanship besides 'decap=win', fighting an opponent with a collar doesn't change the fight much at all. Incapacitate, remove collar, decapitate. In fact, wearing anything around your neck that could resist a decapitating blow from a reasonably fit adult wielding a sword would ''really'' hinder your ability to lean and move quickly. Humans tend to lead with the head in every full-body motion and move they make. |
| 34 | ** There was also an Immortal in the TV series who wore full chainmail armor (he died in modern times, went insane, and thought he was an old-school Knight Templar.) Duncan still took his head, despite the armor (though [[GoryDiscretionShot the camera glosses over how, exactly.]]) It seems likely that the coif shifted enough that Duncan got a relatively clean shot at the neck, or that the chainmail gave enough to allow Duncan's katana in between where the coif ended and the cuirass began. |
| 35 | ** When Connor takes Fasil's head his sword goes clean through in a single stroke and then embeds itself several inches deep in a steel reinforced concrete pillar. The Kurgan knocks down a stone tower by hitting it with a sword, and later easily chops through the steel beams holding up the Silvercup sign. The reason immortals don't wear neck armor is because, series continuity issues aside, other immortals can probably cut right through any armor that would be practical to wear. Chalk it up to whatever magic also makes their swords spark at the slightest contact. |
| 36 | *** This actually did happen in a particular comic. Duncan MacLeod, fought two separate immortals, both wearing metal collars, he still cut right through them like, (well not quite like paper, probably more like cardboard), and still took their heads, and quickenings. Also consider this: even if you wear a metal collar for protection, an enemy immortal could still cut off your arms, and legs, after that, what is to stop them from taking your collar off, and finishing you then? |
| 37 | |
| 38 | * In the original film, why does Connor try to mack on Brenda ("I'd like to walk you home") and then act all pissy that she's following him? |
| 39 | ** Initially I agreed that's a problem, but on reflection I actually think that portrayal is actually FridgeBrilliance for the following reasons: |
| 40 | *** First: Connor [=MacLeod=] is '''crap with women'''. He doesn't know how to relate to them. He's held himself aloof from women for four centuries thanks to a bad case of WhoWantsToLiveForever; the implication in the film is thatt he ''hasn't asked a woman out on a date for four hundred years.'' Kate, the girlfriend he had ''when'' he became an Immortal wound up screaming for him to be burned to death. Heather, the wife he had ''after'' becoming an Immortal died and ''caused'' his WhoWantsToLiveForever syndrome. The only close relationship he's ever implied as having ''since'' then was with Rachel, to whom he's a father figure -- not a lover. More to the point, he's lonely and he wants Brenda to like him (although see below); emotionally, he's acting like a teenager, which fits entirely with a guy who's basically been locked at just past puberty for four hundred years or so. Wild mood swings come as part of the package. |
| 41 | *** Second: Connor gets pissy with Brenda on two occasions: first, when he's just survived an encounter with the Kurgan and in a context where he's trying to keep her out of harm's way. At that point his blood's still up, his adrenalin hasn't worn off, so he's not as gentle as he might otherwise want to be. Second, when he discovers that she's a cop, he thinks she's trying to set him up for murder in a HoneyTrap, and even more so when he finds out her only real interest in him is because of his sword. That's ''after'' she's agreed to have dinner with him and in a context where he thinks her interest in him is genuine and not mercenary. On both occasions I'd call his reactions understandable. |
| 42 | *** Third: When he shows interest in Brenda at the bar, [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation he's faking it.]] To this point in the film [=MacLeod=]'s only knowledge of Brenda is that she's sought out and retrieved a fragment of his katana. Connor wants to find out who she is and what she knows about the Immortals, so he's faking an interest in her so he can [[DoubleEntendre pump her]] for information. |
| 43 | |
| 44 | * Sure, the Kurgan's {{BFS}} looks cool, the way he assembles it. But how does it stay in one piece when he swings it? |
| 45 | ** [[DuctTapeForEverything Duct Tape.]] |
| 46 | ** Trick catch, I think. I've seen swords like that in RealLife, and while I don't know or don't recall the exact mechanism, it's probably something like "press pommel into hilt, pull hilt from crossguard, and twist". It doesn't need to be that complicated to put it together, since it falling apart is the thing that has to not happen by coincidence. |
| 47 | ** It's a kind of magic.... |
| 48 | |
| 49 | * How the hell does "There can be only one" work when (a) nobody seems to know where immortals come from, they're just random babies that show up somewhere, and (b) nobody knows at what point the immortal babies are gonna stop showing up on the planet? If new candidates keep entering the game, how do you know when you're the only one left? |
| 50 | ** In the first movie, they apparently stopped showing up, since Connor became the One in that film. And you know you're the only one left when you get the Prize, which in the first movie was basically infinite knowledge and psychic powers. In ''The Source'', Duncan becomes the One in a different fashion entirely, and his reward is being able to have a kid. But given the, uh, contested continuity of any of the sequels, it's difficult to say anything with certainty. |
| 51 | ** There is more than one "Prize", Connor wins one in NY 1985 and is able to grow old, have kids and read minds, other Immortals who demonstrate special abilities have also won a Prize at some stage but when there is only one left from all they will have ultimate power. |
| 52 | ** I've always thought that Highlander: The Series is to Highlander the film as Stargate: [=SG1=] is to Stargate the film. Each tv series exists in a fundamentally similar but still different universe of the film. Highlander the film takes place during the Gathering and when Connor [=MacLeod=] defeated the Kurgan he became the last Immortal on Earth and won the Prize. Highlander: The Series posits that it wasn't really the Gathering, Connor and the Kurgan weren't really the last two Immortals left, and that Immortals continued to be born after Connor [=MacLeod=] (a question that was left open in the film). In the Series' universe the Gathering is still a long way off and there are a lot more Immortals than were ever shown in the film. Whenever the Gathering occurred in the Series, presumably then Immortals would stop being born and all surviving Immortals would be called together to one area and have to battle it out until only One remains. The continuity of The Source with Highlander: The Series is, as the above troper said, contested. The Series wasn't originally written with The Source in mind and The Source was such a radical departure from ''all'' previous Highlander media that it's easy to consider it FanonDiscontinuity at the very least. |
| 53 | |
| 54 | * In the original Highlander, why would Juan Ramírez teach [=MacLeod=] the ropes? If there can only be one, why not behead him then and there? |
| 55 | ** In the series at least, it's clear that mentoring young immortals is just something that older immortals do, like the Holy Ground ban. Even the evil ones, like Xavier St. Cloud, will have their own protegees. |
| 56 | ** Because he's not a dick. Plus a few mistakes during his final fight show that while smart, he's not as smart as he could be. |
| 57 | ** Also, he's something of an idealist who wants a good person to win the prize rather than someone like The Kurgan. Training new immortals is probably what he ''does.'' If they're the decent sort he lets them play the game, but if it turns out they're just murderous bastards he probably takes their head right then and there. |
| 58 | *** Moreover, it's clear from his appearance that Ramirez must've been middle-aged when he died his first death. No matter ''how'' skilled his millennia of experience might make him as a swordsman, he's still got the physique of someone who's a bit past his prime, and knows he won't be able to beat a rival like the Kurgan, who's every bit as skillful, but whose age was arrested at the height of his strength and agility. Better to pass on those techniques to someone who's basically a good guy, and whose body is locked at its physical peak. |
| 59 | ** The good immortals were waiting for the Gathering, while the less scrupulous ones wanted to jump the gun. Thus, the good immortals would fight immortals they didn't like (read: evil bastards), but had no problems making friends and such with other immortals. Then when the Gathering came, it was understood that they'd have to fight and kill each other, but the Gathering was a long way off. |
| 60 | *** I thought that if it got down to a certain group of immortals (for example, Ramirez, Connor and Kastigir surviving), the survivors would just have gone on their merry way and lived for as long as they bloody well liked. |
| 61 | *** I get the impression in the original film that Connor, at the very least, is tired of life (which is why, when he gets the Prize, he also gets mortality). So even if it came down to several good people at the end, they would duel by mutual agreement in a "let's get this over with" sort of way. |
| 62 | ** ''In the end'' there can be only one. They know that eventually they will be drawn irresistably to a far away land to battle to the last, but until that time they are free to do whatever. There's nothing forcing them to fight each other before The Gathering, and nothing preventing them from being friends, teaching each other, etc. It's only the evil villain sorts that are actively head-hunting before The Gathering, trying to stack the deck in their favor, while the generally good sorts are typically just defending themselves while trying to do their own thing. |
| 63 | |
| 64 | * Ramirez says to Connor that if The Kurgan won the Prize, mankind would suffer an eternity of darkness. But The Prize is apparently being able to grow old and have children. Wouldn't the Kurgan just die in about 50 years or so? Granted, 50 years is a long time but it's not an eternity. |
| 65 | ** Or maybe the prize is whatever the victor wanted most. Connor wanted to be a regular joe. The Kurgan, naturally, would have wanted to treat the entire world (and everyone in it) as his personal playthings, killing, raping, maiming and looting to his heart's content...forever. |
| 66 | *** If, as it was with Connor, the Prize gives the Kurgan the power to know all men's thoughts and dreams, to make him "at one with all living things", it basically puts one hell of a weapon into the Kurgan's hands. He can't be stopped, because he knows the thoughts of those trying to stop him; he can manipulate and arrange things so that man perhaps develops the technology to overcome his mortality and rule as a king forever over the whole world. Hence the eternity of darkness. Or alternatively it may just mean the Kurgan could personally see in a new Dark Ages with the power at his hands. |
| 67 | ** No, being able to grow old and have children is just a side effect of the Prize. Watch the end of the first movie again: Connor gains more or less infinite knowledge, and the ability to essentially telepathically conference with the greatest minds in the world. There may be more powers associated with it that we never see, the Prize, in the first movie, at least, is likely total power. |
| 68 | ** The prize entails the ''option'' to grow old, die, and have children. Connor says he now ''can'' do these things, because he's become awesomely powerful and the game is over anyway. That doesn't mean he's had mortality ''forced'' upon him. |
| 69 | ** Let's assume for a moment that mortality was an unavoidable part of the prize, and had Kurgan won he'd only last for those 50 years. Can you imagine the amount of harm a monster like the Kurgan holding such tremendous power could inflict on a worldwide scale over those few decades? By the time he'd be finally dead, humanity would be indeed changed forever, and not in a good way. |
| 70 | * How can there eventually "Be Only One" when, as we saw in the TV series, there are new Immortals emerging, and no one can tell who they are until after they've become an Immortal? Does the power just go away once there's just one left? (Feel free to mock if this has actually been answered.) |
| 71 | ** Because "the Game" is a myth. Yes, Immortals do gain power from taking the heads of their peers, but there's no Game. There will never be a Gathering. New Immortals will continue to appear, and get murdered or taught the rules of the Game. |
| 72 | ** [[CanonDisContinuity Additionally/alternatively, as the main page points out, the various sequels and spin-offs of Highlander are good at contradicting each other and ignoring previously established information. Just because something was true for the original movie doesn't mean it's going hold for any other iteration.]] |
| 73 | *** Bearing this in mind, it's likely that there was never intended to be a real answer. What's one major problem with ''The Source?'' The Prize is revealed and is completely retarded. It makes a better story if the 'truth' about the Game is something no one ever really finds out; it adds an air of mystery and lets your imagination fill in the blanks if you so desire. If competent writers had handled the franchise (even with having to retcon the end of the first movie so there would still be a franchise to begin with) I doubt they ever would've elaborated on it any more than the first movie itself did. Highlander works best on a personal level; what are Immortals like, how do they deal with WhoWantsToLiveForever, how do they see the world as it changes around them, what do they know about history that's been lost, etc. There's a pattern of the worst parts of the franchise being the parts that try to answer the underlying questions instead of letting them be background for the characters. |
| 74 | ** The new Immortals emerging part was added to make the series last longer. |
| 75 | ** Here's a thought, what if the new immortals were emerging because immortals were dying... But not by the hand of another immortal? We've seen that a human CAN kill an immortal if he puts his mind to it, what happens to the quickening though? It doesn't go into the human, making him immortal, but it's gotta go somewhere... |
| 76 | *** It's been shown that the quickening goes into the nearest immortal. Granted, in those scenes, the nearest one was in the room or otherwise nearby, so who knows what happens if there isn't one around for miles. |
| 77 | *** There was a flashback to the French revolution back in the third film, I think. There Connor is imprisoned, while another immortal gets the guillotine. They are some distance apart but within the same town, and there was no visible quickening. |
| 78 | ** Initially, the series started with the premise that "The Gathering was upon us." This was quickly dropped (likely so the series could run longer), and new Immortals introduced to keep things fresh. It's likely that, if the Game is real and There Really Can Be Only One, eventually new Immortals would stop appearing/being born. Also, Immortals ''can'' detect "latent Immortals" near them. Implied in the first episode with Richie, noted explicitly with Claudia Jardin, the pianist Immortal. When Duncan first introduces her to Methos, after she leaves the scene, he asks Duncan "does she know?" and Duncan replies "That she's one of us? No." |
| 79 | ** It's pretty common Fanon now that Horton's gang killing a bunch of Immortals with no Quickening didn't eliminate their power, it released it into the world to create new Immortals. The Gathering had started, but now the Game has been set back for who knows how long because all that accumulated power has to become new Immortals and be consolidated again. Horton could never have prevented the Gathering forever, only postponed it. |
| 80 | |
| 81 | * In the original film, Immortals had powers we never saw again. They could telepathically link with animals and use their abilities (kind of like Animal Man). Conner was shown surviving under water. Also, Ramirez force some sort of Quickening on Conner when they first met. |
| 82 | ** We did see such abilities again...in the TV series. Some immortals did possess some special abilities like Cassandra's CompellingVoice and John Durgan had a [[SuperScream sonic roar]] and Peter Kanis could mentally control attack dogs. Other supernatural elements existed in the show, including the demon Ahriman and the crystal that apparently granted immortality. |
| 83 | ** There is more than one Prize. Those Immortals who show special powers have also won a Prize at some stage, they just get different abilities to the ones Connor is granted. |
| 84 | ** Connor's survival underwater isn't a special power, it's a restatement of the fact he ''can't die'' unless he's beheaded. He's simply letting air out of his lungs that whole time, not breathing. Also, Ramirez isn't forcing a sort of Quickening on Connor. He ''does'' make Connor feel strange, but that's simply because he's around another immortal - that much was consistent across the whole film if not the whole series. The {{Novelization}} makes it clearer: Ramirez forces Connor to put his arm into the air during a violent thunderstorm so he'll be hit with lightning, which induces the Quickening since it would otherwise be a mortal injury - it calls out the immortal's own inner abilities to defeat death. As for the animal ... this is something of a reflection of the Prize itself, in that the Prize allows its wielder to know every man's thoughts and dreams. When there is only one, all of the immortals' abilities to "feel" living beings have condensed down into one individual, who then has complete knowledge of all living things. |
| 85 | ** Yup, Connor's survival underwater was just part of being Immortal. Short of beheading, no injury could kill them. Connor took a "mortal" wound in his first battle from the Kurgan...but never actually died. The Kurgan got a full magazine from an Uzi in the chest and fell down, but it didn't kill him. "Dying" temporarily was something they invented for the series. |
| 86 | *** Except everything we've see show's they're just a susceptible to injury and "death". They just get better quickly. Shouldn't he drown and revive, rather than just be able to stay underwater indefinitely. |
| 87 | *** Well I know no one likes to mention Highlander 2, but Connor and Ramirez did both apparently "die" temporarily when they got riddled with bullets, unless someone failed to notice their hearts were still beating while they were bagging them up. Which would have been difficult considering that it would have been pushing blood out of their wounds still. So the series wasn't the first to use the idea of temporarily being "dead" from non-beheading mortal injuries. |
| 88 | ** Surviving underwater = defense mechanism. If the Immortal temporarily "dies" from drowning, only to revive still underwater, they'd suffer an endless cycle of death, revival, and immediate death with no hope of escape. So their bodies just don't let them die. In other situations (such as the evil Immortal captain marooned on a deserted island) dying from starvation and dehydration doesn't stop them from coming back and trying to escape, so the body "shuts down" for a time to repair itself, then they get active again trying to remove themselves from the hazard. As for the other special abilities: the Highlander fandom is pretty violently split between those who don't object to other mystical aspects being introduced, and those who hate them. The series toned down the "magic" inherent in the Highlander world, only pulling it out on special occasions. |
| 89 | |
| 90 | * I was watching the episode "The Darkness"(2X4) of the series, and something occurred to me. Duncan Was prophesied to never marry, and as of that episode he has never married yet. Later in the "Endgame" and the "Quickening" he is showed as married before the movies. In the Quickening he has the excuse of saying to hell with the prophecy and got married. But in Endgame, he was married to Kate 200 years previously, kinda ruins the time-line. |
| 91 | ** Considering all the retcon's that the Highlander series did, that isn't really a headscratcher. It's no different then a TV series stating that a main character was born an only child only to later have their sibling turn up. |
| 92 | ** Uh, you ''do'' realize that Duncan MacLeod, from the series (about whom the prophecy was made), and Connor MacLeod, from the films, are two completely separate characters, right? Duncan wasn't in "Quickening," and "Endgame" is. . . well, "Endgame." |
| 93 | ** Not to mention the fact that the series came ''before'' Endgame — it isn't the series doing the retconning here, it's Endgame. (Which, like Highlander 2, never actually happened.) |
| 94 | |
| 95 | * In the episode "The Colonel", Killian imprisons [=MacLeod=] in an old barracks. Dawson, trying to locate his friend, contacts Killian's Watcher on the pretext of asking for some details of [=MacLeod's=] death. She tells him that, though Killian had [=MacLeod=] shot, he didn't actually behead him, and tells Joe the location of the barracks. Question: How did she know that Killian ''didn't'' kill [=MacLeod=]? Sure, she knows that Killian and his goons transported Duncan to the abandoned building. But unless she actually went inside and saw him in his cell, how does she know he's still alive? Granted, there was no lightning, but we've seen (granted very few) Quickenings that weren't accompanied by a light show. |
| 96 | ** Basically she extrapolated from some simple logic: Why would Killian bother bringing Duncan to another location if he was just going to kill him anyway? It's not like Immortals up to then have cared very much where they leave bodies. She figured if he didn't bother to finish him right then and there, he probably wasn't going to kill him right after dragging him someplace specific like that. |
| 97 | |
| 98 | * Did it never occur to our heroes that Kalas was bluffing when he threatened to reveal the existence of Immortals to the world? Such a revelation would screw him just as thoroughly as anyone else. I suppose it's possible he edited himself out of the Watcher records before setting up his scheme, but it seems like that would be a good way to get yourself killed: the entire Watcher organization is going to be out for his blood, to say nothing of the fact that EVERY SINGLE OTHER IMMORTAL (bar Methos, who's not in the records) is going to be pissed at him for ruining their lives. |
| 99 | ** Kalas is AxCrazy, ChaoticEvil, but had no intention of releasing the secret of immortals while he was alive. The computer was set up to a deadman's switch that would release the information in the event of his death. He did this as protection from Duncan, knowing that Duncan would never kill him and let Kalas win in order to save everyone's identities. He was also not worried about the Watchers, seeing as how the first two he met he killed rather easily. He undoubtedly underestimates them and thinks that they are all observers and scholars. Also he might never need to fear any other immortal ever if he knows where they live, what names they use, and what they look like. He could use that information to blackmail other immortals and kill them as well. |
| 100 | |
| 101 | * Umm...sooo..no Immortals are born in isolated tribes in say New Guinea, Siberia or the Guiana Highlands? Or do they just never become Immortals...? |
| 102 | ** Sure there are. We just didn't see them on the show. |
| 103 | ** Also it was established in The Raven spin-off that violent death is required to turn immortal. Die of old age or poison, and you stay dead, just like any other mortal. |
| 104 | *** Doubtful. Violent death is simply more impressive than old age or poison when becoming immortal. Since immortals stop aging at the time they first die, then those immortals who died of old age and then become immortal will be simply too weak to fend off the evil immortals who come for their heads. |
| 105 | *** It's not "doubtful," it's fully and explicitly canon. |
| 106 | *** I would also imagine that anyone becoming Immortal in a small territory like an island would have a very hard time hiding their condition and eventually just climb onto a boat and sail until they hit land, wherever that happened to be. |
| 107 | *** Yet, the main series contradicts the poison part because Nefertiti dies the first time by drinking poison to join her queen in the after-life. |
| 108 | *** Nefertiri was already Immortal at that point. She willfully sealed herself in a sarcophagus with her Queen because she couldn't die with her to join her in the Afterlife (the ancient Egyptians were big on that), so she did the next-best thing. |
| 109 | |
| 110 | * Don't Wiccan immortals have kind of an unfair advantage? You just cast a circle and create holy ground; fifteen minutes and you're completely untouchable. |
| 111 | ** Considering that Wiccanism was only recently invented, perhaps most immortals wouldn't respect it enough to consider it holy ground. |
| 112 | *** Actually, Paganism [which Wicca is part of] has been around for far longer than religions like Christianity. And an immortal could just push you out of the circle anyway. |
| 113 | *** First, there is no such religion as "Paganism". Paganism is just an old (originally derogatory) term for any non-Judeo-Christian religion. Second, while Pagan (that is, non-Abrahamic) religions have been around for many thousands of years, Wicca is not really related to any of them. It is a very recent invention that borrows bits and pieces from some non-Abrahamic religions (as well as more Judeo-Christian elements than most Wiccans care to admit) but it is not an old religion. That doesn't mean it's a false religion, but it simply doesn't have the ancient roots some of its followers claim. |
| 114 | ** It doesn't seem to be as much respect as [[ClapYourHandsIfYouBelieve Belief Makes it Real]]. Pompeii supposedly happened because of Immortals fighting on holy land. You need a lot of people believing unconditionally that a specific location is holy for it to be so. |
| 115 | *** It doesn't have to be common knowledge -- an ancient burial ground has counted at least once. On the other hand, any Immortal who's young enough to be a legit Wiccan probably isn't experienced enough to think of it. Even if they did, casting a circle takes time and produces only a small plot of holy ground; you can't stay in a 10' radius circle your whole life and you can be easily ambushed when you step out. It's a good trick, but lots of Immortals have good tricks (Slan Quince's sword-gun, Pallin Wolf's night-vision goggles, or Michael Christian's inside information). |
| 116 | ** Besides Wiccanism aside the rules seem to imply that you can't just declare any old piece of earth "Holy" and stick your tongue out at other Immortals. |
| 117 | ** Immortals have tried the old "I'll become a priest and thereby be on holy ground all the time," notably Darius. It doesn't stop ''mortals'' from assassinating you, or presumably an Immortal hiring mortal hirelings to achieve the same result. |
| 118 | ** The age of the religion shouldn't matter, only whether it is genuinely believed. After all, ''every'' religion was new at some point. And yes, I do think that a Wiccan could cast a circle and create a bit of temporary Holy Ground, it might not even take nearly as long as you say, depending on the version of Wicca and how much stock they put in props versus imagination. But, that ground would only be Holy temporarily, and would only be as big as the circle. They'd be stuck in it. If they're outdoors, they'd be out in the weather. There's unlikely to be much to eat or drink inside it. Their enemy could basically lay siege to them and wait them out. Call someone for help, and they are either giving the bad guy a potential hostage, or putting their mentor at risk making them fight their battles. |
| 119 | ** I find it more interesting that there doesn't seem to be an expiration date on Holy Ground. Any cemetery or ancient burial ground, any church or temple, any place like Duncan's cabin in the pilot which was held sacred by a tribe which was apparently massacred before he even finished building the cabin...all still considered Holy Ground. The proportion of the world that counts as Holy Ground seems to be growing. Presumably if an old church is specifically un-Consecrated before being sold to become a coffeehouse, it wouldn't count anymore...unless someone from another religion decided to have small services there. Heck, if an Immortal wants to get a degree, Beloit College has little ancient burial mounds all over the campus, the whole complex is Holy Ground! |
| 120 | |
| 121 | * Some of the Immortals seen in the various movies and tv episodes seem to wield some fairly inappropriate weapons. If you're fighting a millenia-long battle against people who can only be killed by cutting their heads off, logically you should only favor weapons engineered for cutting and/or chopping. So, katanas make sense. Humongous claymores make sense. Battle axes, naginatas, sabers, and even plain old broadswords make sense. But then in the first film, you see Connor fighting a guy who carries some kind of rapier. In Highlander: Endgame you see Immortals with punching daggers, tiger claws, ''chains'', and one idiot with a ''club'' with spikes in it. How do these guys plan to cut off the other guy's head with these things? |
| 122 | ** You don't have to cut their head off in combat. You can easily "kill" them to incapacitate them, then saw their head off with a dagger or something when they're down. As for the guys in Endgame, they were breaking the rules to begin with; they were pretty much all working together so their leader could take the head, so they didn't need to worry about decapitation. |
| 123 | *** But isn't that just making an already difficult job even tougher? I mean, sure you could ''try'' to saw the guy's head off with a dagger, but it would be a very long, very tedious process in which many things could happen (you could get arrested by police, the opponent could recover before his head is fully decapitated, etc) not even going in to how hard it'd be do do it with a sabre. |
| 124 | *** ^Exactly (although I think you have a misconception about what [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabre sabres]] look like). Better to carry a weapon specifically designed for cutting and/or chopping and take the other guy's head in one easy swing. |
| 125 | *** Well, in the series at least, Duncan lops off a couple heads with the barest of effort (in one instance, it looks like he only moves the blade--in this case, a ''rapier''--a few inches and takes off the head). So it might be that the neck isn't just the immortals' only vulnerable part, but it is also a weakpoint to hit.\ |
| 126 | Alternatively, maybe the immortals using the less-than-practical armaments do carry a saw or something under their coats, but never get to use them. Or, in the case of the [=McLeods=] specifically, if you "kill" him, hey, his katana's sitting right there. |
| 127 | ** Also some of the "Rapiers" in the series have ridiculously large and heavy blades, Richie's in particular has a big honkin' headslicer on it. |
| 128 | ** If memory serves, isn't the guy with the rapier Connor fights in the first movie just some mortal doofus in the eighteenth century who unwittingly challenged a drunken Connor to a duel not realizing he's immortal? In that case, it makes perfect sense why he wouldn't be carrying around a blade designed to lop someone's head off; he's not ''aiming'' to be lopping anyone's head off. |
| 129 | *** Yes, but I was referring to one of ''Duncan's'' fights during the series, where he cuts off someone's head with a rapier by apparently shifting the blade about three inches. |
| 130 | *** True, but I was responding to the OP where he or she points out that ''Connor'' fights a guy with a rapier at one point. |
| 131 | *** Conner isn't fighting a guy ''with'' a rapier, he's fighting a ''guy'' with a rapier. Fasil (the first opponent Connor fights in the original film) used one. Especially egregious because Immortals being disabled by "killing" them through normally fatal wounds didn't get introduced until the series. |
| 132 | *** Fasil wasn't using a rapier. Brenda correctly identified it as "A Toledo Salamanca Broadsword", or at least a Spanish-pattern broadsword. Like an 18th-century Scottish Claymore (the one-hand broadsword kind, not the original 2-hander), this is a heavy-bladed sword with a basket hilt. A rapier may or may not have a basket hilt, but it would have a much lighter blade (see ''Film/ThePrincessBride'' for some excellent examples of rapiers). |
| 133 | *** There is no such animal as a Toledo Salamanca Broadsword. Fasil is using a Toledo Salamanca RAPIER. And it is clearly such. The only way he could realistically use this weapon against other immortals (beyond perforating their heads off) is to use the speed of the rapier to incapacitate them, before decapitating with their own weapon. |
| 134 | *** Of course there is no such weapon as a "Toledo Salamanca Broadsword". IT IS A FICTIONAL WEAPON! The actual movie prop IS a Rapier, but a Rapier can't decapitate a person, so it was RENAMED as a "Toledo Salamanca Broadsword". It is a customized weapon designed exactly for the character of Fasil. They all are. It's actually a nice bit of Fridge Logic when think it over. Every Immortal has a "custom" weapon exclusively for them, even Connor/Ramirez's unique Katanna never actually existed in real life. They were all solely invented just for this movie franchise's lore, they exist solely to be used by superhuman immortal warriors, specifically to kill all other superhuman immortal warriors. |
| 135 | *** On a related note. Brenda only refers to the weapon in question as a "Toledo Salamanca" (I just rewatched the scene). It could be a case of fridge brilliance that the police officer deliberately misnamed it (by calling it a broadsword) in an attempt to trip "Nash" up, as he did with Fasil's name in the same scene. |
| 136 | ** There ''is'' a difference between a "rapier" and "foil." A rapier can still be light and swift, while having a blade sturdy enough to (at least theoretically) decapitate someone. A foil is basically just a thin metal strip, with or without pointy end. Rapiers would actually be ''better'' choices than "off-the-rack" long- or broadswords, since those heavier swords didn't actually have sharpened edges, because there's no point to sharp edge when you're whacking someone coated head-to-toe with steel. A longsword or broadsword would have to have a sharp edge added to it, while a rapier is sharp along basically its entire length (since they were developed around the time that gunpowder made most metal armor obsolete.) |
| 137 | *** Certainly, rapiers did have a cutting edge (as did the Toledo Salamanca), and could deliver some violent and certainly disorienting slashing wounds, but the build of the blade simply was not meant for dismemberment of any sort. The basic style rapier (a broad term, I know), was designed for quick movements, which the heavier dismemberment blades could not handle. Even the sturdiest rapier blade would require extreme force to push through the neck muscles and vertebrae, which the human body builds powerfully for a reason. With most cutting weapons, a single stroke decapitation is difficult to achieve. Using no sarcasm, I would be most interested to see an example of a rapier based weapon pulling this off with human strength. |
| 138 | *** No sword expert here, but I don't think Fasil' sword is a rapier. Photos of rapiers in wikipedia show them with a very narrow blade. If you pause the movie when the swords are crossed, Fasil's don't seem to be narrower than Connor's katana and don't seem too different from the pictures in wikipedia entry for "Broadsword". Maybe the cop description was accurate. In other matters, what means a "Toledo Salamanca"? I know about Toledo Steel, and the world famous swords from the Spanish city, but Toledo Salamanca is smashing together the names of two unrelated cities from Spain. |
| 139 | ** Speaking as someone with genuine real-life experience performing decapitation here — as a veterinarian, I occasionally have to remove the head of a dog or cat that needs to be tested for rabies. Decapitation is ''hard''. The bones of the neck interlock, and we usually have to go through ligaments in between them in multiple places to separate the bones. Cutting through the bones instead takes a lot of work, even if you can target the very smallest part possible, and a swing of a sword wouldn't be able to aim that precisely, unless they have x-ray vision. In other words, going through someone's neck with ''any'' sword during a fight is highly unlikely, unless there's some sort of magical boost given to the swing when it happens during a fight between Immortals — which does indeed seem to be the case, given how they routinely cut through rock walls, metal support struts, tables, doors, etc. And if you get that sort of a boost, then a lighter weapon will do just as well as a heavier one. |
| 140 | ** Nothing stopping an immortal with an impractical weapon disabling and disarming their opponent, and then using their own sword to take their head. If say you didn't have your sword with you but someone comes at you, you duck into a janitors closet, grab a broom to use as a makeshift quarterstaff, and somehow manage to win the fight, you can't take their head with a broom, but their own sword is a different story. |
| 141 | |
| 142 | * Do the "immortals" have to be ''standing'' on holy ground to be unable to fight on it or can they attack someone on holy ground from outside it? For instance, think of that scene from ''Sleepy Hollow'' wherein the Hessian, who cannot attack on holy ground either, stands at the edge of the churchyard, throws a makeshift harpoon through a church window into someone, and drags their carcass over to him, all without setting foot on the grounds. [[LoopholeAbuse Could an immortal do that?]] |
| 143 | ** The rule may be that an immortal can't attack another immortal who is on holy ground, rather than forbidding them from attacking while ''they'' personally are on holy ground. |
| 144 | ** No one knows what the limits of the rules are, not even the Immortals themselves. Given that, most Immortals probably wouldn't take the risk of attacking someone from just outside holy ground. |
| 145 | ** In one of the TV episodes, an immortal wanting to kill a human priest waited until he had lured him off Holy Ground before killing him. It seems to be one of those rules that the exact meaning of is unknown. Originally, in Endgame, Sanctuary was supposed to be on Holy Ground, but fan outcry made them change it, even though it makes no sense in-universe to put it anywhere else, and explains why the human guardians were dressed like monks. Also, the Pompeii incident was rumor, not fact. Indeed, given that if fighting on Holy Ground caused the eruption, you would expect that any witnesses to the event would have also perished. |
| 146 | ** This is covered in "Band of Brothers" in one of the flashbacks. Some soldiers raid Darius's church and "kill" him. Duncan is standing outside the churchyard gates waiting for them to emerge. During at least part of the resulting fight, Duncan is definitely standing outside the gates, fighting an officer who is ''inside'' the gates, on Holy Ground. The implications are, as discussed above, disturbing. |
| 147 | ** Except the rule only applies to Immortals. Mortals are perfectly free to fight and kill on Holy Ground, even Immortals (exhibit A, Darius and his head). Presumably, an Immortal attacked by mortals on Holy Ground would be free to defend themselves. The rule is often stated as "we (Immortals) can't fight on Holy Ground," but really seems to be closer to "Immortals can't fight each other with the intent of taking a head on Holy Ground." Exibit B, Highlander 3, Kane attacks Connor in a Buddhist shrine, but in that exact spot immediately prior Connor had been kendo sparring with a mortal friend. |
| 148 | |
| 149 | * In the episode "Mountain Men" [=MacLeod=] faces off against an Immortal named Caleb who has kidnapped Tessa. [=MacLeod=] is familiar with the wooded mountains where they are hiding; a while back, he was trained by a, well, [[TitleDrop mountain man]] named Carl. Duncan and Caleb spend a few minutes arguing just before the obligatory sword fight. I don't have the precise wording of the scene in front of me, but the wording struck me as very odd. |
| 150 | --> Caleb: "Old Carl had some mighty fine words for you. Could say he used up his lifetime supply." |
| 151 | --> Duncan: "You killed him." |
| 152 | --> Caleb: "Think what you will." |
| 153 | It's almost an ExactWords setup for a reveal that he ''didn't'' kill Carl, but that never comes. If he did it, why not say so outright? If he didn't, wouldn't this be a good time to bring it up? |
| 154 | |
| 155 | * How much do the [=MacLeod=]s really care about the Prize? They have made plenty of immortal friends over the centuries, some of whom have been mentors, pupils and/or lovers. If it wasn’t for the MonsterOfTheWeek, it looks like “team good” would just give up on fighting. |
| 156 | ** I think it's an artifact of the first movie where Connor is shown acting friendly with two Immortals (Ramirez and that African guy whose name I can't remember). The reason he was acting like that is because in the first movie the Immortals were all waiting for the Gathering so the good Immortals had no reason to fight each other. It's a bit like when two expert gunslingers would meet in the Old West. Contrary to popular folklore, if two famous gunslingers met each other they wouldn't feel obligated to duel; they'd usually remain cordial but keep a respectful distance from one another. They'd only start fighting if there was some personal vendetta between them or if they'd had too much to drink (or both). The Immortals in the first movie seem to follow the same rules. Until the Gathering begins, they don't fight when they don't have to. However, the Series is supposed to take place ''during'' the Gathering. I guess when all the Evil Immortals are all gone Duncan and the other Good Immortals would just draw straws or something to see who wins the Prize. |
| 157 | ** The African guy's name is Kastagir. |
| 158 | |
| 159 | * Wouldn't quite a lot of deaths other than simple beheading cause decapitation? An explosion, for instance, being set on fire, or being trapped in a position where you can decay... |
| 160 | ** Probably, although all three happened without causing decapitation. |
| 161 | ** Probably depends on the exact placement of the bomb. In the anime, "Search for Vengeance," Colin's reincarnated girlfriend was able to decapitate Marcus' immortal partner by stuffing a grenade down her throat. |
| 162 | ** I think any injury that separates the head from the body would count. In one episode an immortal was caught in a ship's propeller, chopped up offscreen and a quickening resulted. |
| 163 | *** The {{Novelisation}} touches on this. Macleod asks Ramirez if beheading ''is'' the only way they can die, to which Ramirez replies that nobody's quite sure - that immolation or something like it might also do the trick. "I wouldn't recommend trying to find out," though, is how it ends, which seems like pretty good advice. |
| 164 | ** Just based on the number if times Immortals are blown up or fall from high enough to dismember, I think their structural integrity must be greater than that of normal humans. They can get shot, squashed, blown up, run over, etc, but unless something ''specifically'' goes through their necks with a lot of force (or a magical boost), they stay in one piece and survive. Likewise they must be resistant to dismemberment in general, or Felice Martins would probably be missing a part or two, falling from that high up, not to mention shrapnel or machine gun fire going through an arm or leg. |
| 165 | |
| 166 | * What would happen if a mortal decapitated an immortal? Who gets your powers? Does anyone get your powers? Do you pick up your head and stick it back on your neck? |
| 167 | ** I think it goes to the nearest immortal. I remember in the alternative timeline the Watchers were killing Immortals and they didn't seem to be getting their powers at least. |
| 168 | ** My [[WildMassGuessing guess]] is that the power is redistributed among new potential immortals. |
| 169 | ** An episode of the Series had Ritchie obtain the Quickening of an Immortal with Down Syndrome, who committed suicide by sticking his neck out on the rail of an oncoming train. |
| 170 | *** Mikey did not have Down's Syndrome, I don't know where that came from (saw it on another trope page too)...he was mentally challenged, but he didn't have the signature Down's features. |
| 171 | ** An episode of "The Raven" had Amanda's mortal friend outsmart an Immortal and behead him. The Quickening went directly to Amanda, who just ran in when the head was chopped off. There was another episode where the same mortal friend shot a window that an Immortal was underneath for a large sharp piece to decapitate the guy. No one got the Quickening in this case. |
| 172 | ** In one episode where Horton has captured Hugh Fitzcairn and has him strapped under a guillotine, Fitz protests, "But there are no other immortals nearby! There will be no Quickening! All that I am will be lost!" I figure that if an immortal is near enough to feel the buzz, they're near enough to get a Quickening, otherwise no. |
| 173 | |
| 174 | * Why are they called immortals? They are ''not'' technically immortals according to WordOfGod, since its stated that any sufficient damage could kill an immortal regardless if you cut their head off? Like rip them appart (explosives), burned them to crisp, boiled them, squash them or even heavily damaging their heads (like a sniper shot or a shotgun in the face), making the entire "they cannot die" a complete lie. Also, since they can't regenerate (according to WordOfGod, this decision took [[SarcasmMode hours and hours of deep, meaningful discussion]]) any part of their bodies and need to heal "natural" would make most immortals (or at least the protagonist) get hold of horrorific, crippling damage... which make the Kurgan car trick less awesome and more moronic. In fact they are only ageless and having a little boon in the physical department, making the entire ''Franchise'' misleading. |
| 175 | ** It's a franchise about a bunch of immortals, not a bunch of invincibles. |
| 176 | *** Invicibility refers to the ability to not be defeated. Being unkillable doesn't mean you can't be defeated and thus has nothing to do with invincibility. By the original definition an immortal is someone that cannot be killed at all. |
| 177 | ** Dude, if someone lived without getting any older for centuries and could shrug off anything short of decapitation and heavy artillery, what term would you recommend that gets the idea across? |
| 178 | ** Agelessness alone makes you immortal. |
| 179 | ** I'd like to see a citation for this alleged WordOfGod that Immortals can die after sufficient damage even if their heads aren't taken off. |
| 180 | ** If I remember correctly, Adrian Paul and David Panzer did have a discussion about this. I'm trying to find the article in which they talked about it. As powerful as the Immortals are, if you do severe amounts of damage to their bodies, they're going to die. An Immortal isn't going to survive having their bodies blown to bits from an explosion, nor are they going to survive having heavy artillery rip them to shreds. Hell, anything that outright destroys the body is definitely going to kill an Immortal. I also recall that the Immortal who discovered Manny, one of Jacob Kell's men; was blown apart by artillery fire soon after discovering his protege. |
| 181 | *** No sure how "being blown to pieces by artillery fire" would count as proof, as the odds of such a thing causing your head getting separated from the body would be quite good. |
| 182 | ** They certainly ''can'' regenerate. Not to the extent of replacing lost limbs, maybe (like with Xavier St. Cloud), but certainly to the extent of quickly healing minor wounds. We see this quite explicitly when Methos tries to guilt-trip Don Salzer's widow by showing that he's one of the Immortals she's about to expose: he slices his hand with a knife, and it heals within seconds. |
| 183 | ** There are many different forms of Immortality (as this very site proves). Being Ageless is just one requirement, but it still counts. |
| 184 | ** Because they are to all intents and purposes immortal. They never age. They are capable of withstanding and healing from very high levels of physical damage. They do not die of natural causes, and there is only one method of violent death which has been demonstrably proven to kill them. Barring decapitation, they are theoretically capable of living forever. It might not be 'pure' immortality, but it is nevertheless close enough that describing these individuals as 'immortals' is a perfectly acceptable shorthand way of describing them. |
| 185 | |
| 186 | * Why eternal childs are in such disavantage in the game? Oh, I get the idea that the first few years would suck ass really hard, but Kenny by being several hundred years old should be a deadly warrior. Just because his body doesn't grow "old" wouldn't mean he couldn't train it at its peack condition, like a child Monk or an Olympian level athlete. There is also reflex, [[AwesomenessByAnalysis a tactical mind]], several martial arts especifically for weak willed bodies [[DeadlyDodging and not being where the pointy thing is aimed at]]. It would never be like as [[MusclesAreMeaningless "strong"]] as his adult body but that doesn't mean he would be defenseless. It's just, when the Tv define it, it make it sound like his body by being "immortal" would be unchanged as that of a child no matter what. But if that is true, [[FridgeLogic it would mean that '''all''' immortals are exactly as they where in life]]. [[FridgeHorror They would be incapable of learning, changing, growing wise and no matter how much training they put themselves through, they would still be a farmer, a backer or a illiterate soldier for all "eternity"]]. |
| 187 | ** Reach and leverage is a serious factor in any fight, especially one determined with swords. He might live hundreds of years but he is at a disadvantage against any immortal who lived just as long and does the same, but isn't stuck in a younger body. Plus, it's harder to get fake credentials as a child then as an adult meaning their ability to get around is degraded. |
| 188 | *** Immortality does ''not'' work that way. Once becoming immortal, your body is ModeLocked, you do not age ''physically''. This does not stop you from learning, as Duncan learned how to use a katana well after he became immortal. Connor learned from Ramirez ''after'' becoming immortal. Hell, Ramirez himself had to have learned other languages after becoming immortal, unless you think Connor knew egyptian somehow. |
| 189 | *** Yes, but your still subject of the peak limits of the body. Obviously things like reach and leverage are limited due to size. Even at peak physicle condition, he's weaker and slower than other immortals. |
| 190 | *** To put it bluntly, he can't cut off an adult's head so easily because it's so high. |
| 191 | ** He's also still a kid. A very old kid, but a kid. His brain hasn't matured to the point where he has developed the self-discipline (and it wasn't instilled in him by his upbringing) to seriously study a fighting style that would work for him. And even if he did master such a style, he's still at a significant height, strength, speed, and leverage disadvantage over any adult. It's far easier for him to learn to trick other Immortals into getting into situations where he can easily kill them. |
| 192 | ** [[https://youtu.be/V56dVFBCQcc Shadiversity tackled a similar question not long ago]], though in the context of men vs. women in sword fights. In short, swords are great force equalizers, largely negating the significant advantages one enjoys in hand-to-hand combat if you're taller, heavier, and stronger than your opponent. But ''reach'' remains a significant factor. Kenny will never have the kind of reach an adult has, so will still be at a significant disadvantage. He could try to compensate with a larger sword, but then his weapon is all out of proportion to his body, and he has to contend with its increased weight (swords aren't as heavy as people think, but weight is still a factor. . . and how is going to conceal a sword as tall as he is?). His younger body can't attain the levels of muscle mass and conditioning an adult can. So yes, if he tries to fight an adult in a straight duel like we see most Immortals do, he's very likely to lose. |
| 193 | |
| 194 | * Why are there more male immortals than female ones? I haven't seen much of the series so I'm not discounting a sizeable quantity of female immortals but from what I've seen the males outnumber the females by at lease two thirds. |
| 195 | ** When Duncan meets his first woman immortal, he too is surprised. The series seems to say that women are at a slight physical disadvantage in swinging a heavy sword and so there are a larger number of male immortals due to the females losing more sword-fights on average. Even on the show, Duncan would frequently offer to defend Amanda, despite her being older than him. This isn't to say that the series doesn't have it's share of immortal ActionGirls who can defeat male immortals. |
| 196 | ** If you're an immortal, but your first death is peaceful and natural, then it sticks. You only become fully Immortal if you die a violent death, and this typically happened to warriors, who historically have typically been men. |
| 197 | ** Plus until recently women weren't likely to have *any* training in combat, at least not in the majority of cultures. As Amanda said, "Books are for monks, and women don't fight with swords." She was incredibly lucky to be found by one of the few other women Immortals, and one who was a decent teacher. Another surviving woman Immortal was a Celt, a culture which *did* train women in combat (as well as having women judges, etc.). Any woman not lucky enough to either come from a more egalitarian culture, or be trained by someone truly bucking every tradition of their culture, would be a sitting duck for the first Immortal to come across her. |
| 198 | ** Also, if we consider the Doylist/meta factors for a moment, then it has to be acknowledged; at the time the movie and series were made, men were (and to some degree still are) more typically given the heroic / villainous roles in action-fantasy media than women. ActionGirls tend to be less common in media than Action Boys for this very reason. |
| 199 | |
| 200 | * How come no one ever 'kills' an Immortal and then decapitates them? they die for at least a minute, so it should be as easy as pulling a gun and hacking off the dead guy's head. But nobody ever does this or uses a few arrows or poison or anything. |
| 201 | ** Shooting them first is considered against the rules, or at least unsporting. Whoever set up the Game set it up to be one-on-one duels in spirit. As a note, the villain in ''Endgame'' actually makes a point of breaking those rules. One of his goons has guns, and he has them beat up on a single Immortal before he finishes them. |
| 202 | ** Villains on the show have also done this. Xavier St. Cloud worked with Horton's men to drive up in a van and riddle his opponents with bullets before Cloud took his head. Kalas had his Mook driver run another immortal down in his car before taking his head and his sword. No rules against it, but think about it. If it becomes well-known that you aren't one to play by the rules, neither will others, and they will see you as a threat. Maybe some older, more powerful take it upon themselves to end the upstart. Maybe one of the Watchers decide to maybe interfere a little, and reveal your location to someone who is able and willing to take you out. |
| 203 | |
| 204 | * What happens to bullets inside an Immortals body? Ritchie gets shot by an Uzi and he doesn't "pop" out bullets. |
| 205 | ** Either they continue on through, or they break up and are absorbed somehow. |
| 206 | ** We know for a fact that a healing process of immortals is somewhat supernatural, It's entirely possible that their bodies indeed pop the bullets out or are absorbing them somehow... |
| 207 | *** ...or all of the bullets are just piling up there, somewhere. |
| 208 | *** Maybe if the bullets didn't continue on through, the immortals after they regain consciousness would then have to perform a little painful surgery on themselves to remove the annoying bullets in their bodies, probably involving a scalpel and a lot of pain-killers. Something we never see on the show or the movies. |
| 209 | ** If they just passed on through, we'd see a lot fewer cases of "Immortal is shot diving in front of mortal to sace their life, and has to either move on or reveal their secret," and a lot more "Immortal is shot, and mortal unlucky enough to be standing behind him dies." |
| 210 | *** Immortal is shot, and since the movie/tv series was done in the 80's/90's, it's too expensive/gory for the time to do a FX shot of bullets popping out. |
| 211 | ** If I recall correctly, at one point there was serious discussion (I believe in one of Amanda's early appearances, where they both get gunned down) about adding some kind of sound effect of something to represent the bullets being expelled from their bodies as they healed. |
| 212 | ** They actually did this in "Eyewitness" when the gunman tries to shoot Tessa and Duncan ends up getting hit. He's lying in the floor of the shop, clearly still in pain as he tells Tessa and Richie they weren't aiming at him. There's a faint thud as a bullet lands on the floor, and then he says in a much less pained voice, "They were after you, Tessa." I was a fan at the time, and can remember some sort of WordOfGod interview that confirmed that was exactly what happened. Once the bullet was expelled, his body could heal. No idea if the bullet went back out the entry wound or burrowed a new path taking the shortest route to the surface. |
| 213 | |
| 214 | |
| 215 | * What would be the possible consequences if The Masquerade was ever broken: if the whole world suddenly knew about Immortals, like that one episode where Kalas threatened to give the news agencies the files on Immortals? Would the immortals be hunted? Would they become celebrities? Would they be stuck into laboratories to find out their secrets? Would they all stand trail for murdering other immortals? |
| 216 | ** This troper imagines that for the most of the society it would soon become just another conspiracy theory, but considering the circumstance that actual verifiable data is leaked, it would propably result in some establishment concern of some sort. |
| 217 | ** Depending on how public the exposure was, either the Evil Government Agency or Evil Corporation would cover up their existence and quietly recruit/study/vivisect them, or they'd wind up one more category of celebrity stalked by Entertainment Tonight. |
| 218 | ** There would also be litigation on the actual rights and citizenships of the immortals since many may predate the country they reside in. |
| 219 | ** How about making an army of Immortals? All you need to do is sedate them and, while they're out, fit them with an explosive neck collar ala ''Film/BattlefieldEarth''. Once you do that, you have an army of people who can't be killed except for removing their heads, which you can do at the slightest hint of disobediance or betrayal. Along with the various torturous methods of study that you can do to someone that you know won't die no matter what you put them through, most likely in hope of replicating whatever it is that makes them immortal in the first place (aside from being from Zeist. [[FanonDiscontinuity That planet doesn't exist]]). |
| 220 | * In ''Endgame'': Why, oh WHY would ''multiple'' Immortals willingly help Kell game the system? They had to know that Kell would eventually turn on them, and by the time he did, he'd be far too strong to resist. For that matter: why would Kell use Immortals as henchmen instead of BadassNormal humans? Ones who would gain no advantage from killing him in his sleep or poisoning him so he's too weak to defend himself, then lopping his head off. |
| 221 | ** Presumably he made them an offer along the lines of, "Work with me, or I take your head right now." And then once they were working for him, fed them vices and such to keep them in line. |
| 222 | * Could Connor defeat Ramirez and take his head? Would certainly make the first film play out differently. |
| 223 | ** May have been Ramirez's endgame. Nakano invited Connor to strike him down and take his knowledge for himself. Ramirez may have had the same thought, train this guy to a respectable level, then give him my Quickening, so he'll be even better prepared to defeat The Kurgan. |
| 224 | |
| 225 | * How did the Frasers know who Connor Macleod is? A young man from a rival clan who has not yet fought in battle, yet every Fraser recognized and avoided him. |
| 226 | ** Not every Fraser did cognize him. You could hear someone calling off attackers. "No, not him!" |
| 227 | ** There had probably been meetings between Clan Macleod and Clan Fraser before that battle. Odds are that Connor was present at one of those meetings. Or there had been several battles, and one of the Frasers just happened to recognize that Connor was the rookie. |
| 228 | * When was Connor's first death? In the first film, at the battle between the Macleods and Frasers, the Kurgan is clearly after Connor's head. Also, Connor got "the buzz" in Kurgan's presence. Both would indicate Connor was already immortal at the time of the battle. While immortals get some sort of buzz in the presence of pre-immortals, that pre-immortals don't. Killing Connor before becoming immortal would have been of no use to The Kurgan. If Connor wasn't immortal, why would the Kurgan care who killed him? So long as the head stayed attached, he could come after the untrained Connor once he'd risen. |
| 229 | ** I'd chalk Connor getting the buzz up to EarlyInstallmentWeirdness. I figure The Kurgan wanted to kill him not for his quickening, but because that would be one less person he had to worry about in The Game, and the fact that he wanted to kill him himself is probably so he could be sure Connor was decapitated and not just stabbed or something. |
| 230 | ** Expanding on the EarlyInstallmentWeirdness, I'd suggest that in the original movie, an immortal could kill a pre-immortal and then decapitate him immediately afterwards, thus getting the quickening. The Kurgan's actions suggest that this was possible. |
| 231 | * Why exactly was Connor's love interest so obviously happy to suggest that Conner had survived by making a pact with Lucifer? Why was she so visibly distressed to see that they wouldn't be burning a man to death? I don't actually know what the characters were saying before they went to fight because I couldn't hear it over the horses. I can only imagined she must have expressed some desire to kill him, though; you'd think that she'd be more somber about having no better explanation for Connor's recovery than that he must have dealt with Satan, like the rest of the guys in that scene. |
| 232 | ** This ''is'' sixteenth century Scotland we're talking about here. As far as she's concerned, that's not the man she loves, that's some demon inhabiting his form, or he's made a DealWithTheDevil (which for their purposes is just as bad) or something. She might just be exceptionally devout. |
| 233 | ** Displaced fear. After all, she was consorting with him, so she might be just as guilty. . . unless she jumps straight to the head of the "burn the witch!" line. Or she may have felt that, if he is indeed a demon, he's "defiled" her in some way, and the only way to be clean is to see him killed. |
| 234 | ** In the novel, someone actually said to Connor during the scene where they're discussing him still being alive, "Only ONE good man ever rose from the dead, and you're not him." |
| 235 | ** My personal theory has been that Kate and Dugal 'consoled' one another over Connor's Death... and his not being dead suddenly made them the 'bad guys'... But if Connor was dead and this thing that looks like him is a demon, then they were still right to have bonded over his passing... so they become the loudest voices screaming for the Demon to be killed |
| 236 | * The Kurgan's skull helmet is hella cool, but what kind of animal does it belong to? |
| 237 | ** It does not look like it belongs to any specific animal. Given that the Kurgan's people were terrifying to fight, it would make sense for them to make their helmets resemble skulls to induce fear into whoever they were fighting. |
| 238 | ** Maybe it was some extinct beast that the Kurgan found his travels and killed in some remote part of the world. It was the last of its kind, and was never discovered by naturalists. Fighting a beast and driving it to extinction sounds like something the Kurgan would relish doing. |
| 239 | * Why doesn't Ramirez finish off the Kurgan when he has the chance? After he cuts the Kurgan's throat, the latter is staggered, leaving him an opening for a killing stroke. But instead, Ramirez stands there and mocks him, allowing him to recover and kill Ramirez. What gives? |
| 240 | ** Even good guys can fall prey to the temptation to Monologue. |
| 241 | ** Perhaps he wasn't sure of the blow. The Kurgan was at a disadvantage, yes, but perhaps Ramirez hesitated too long because he wanted to be certain of a killing stroke. |
| 242 | ** The Kurgan was a legend among Immortals, the most evil, the purist warrior. I think Ramirez was too uncertain of himself after having heard the legends about the Kurgan, and didn't truly believe that the Kurgan could be defeated, at least not by Ramirez. It would be like going up against Jason Voorhees. |
| 243 | * In the first movie, what's the deal with the katana? I't was made with a technique that wasn't invented until more than a thousand years later, and the movie never solves this mystery nor has any relevance to the plot (except making Brenda interested in Nash, but an authentic Masamune sword from the correct period would have done the trick, as they must be rare). The movie was about immortals, not people traveling back in time. Why introduce this element that strains suspension of disbelief without adding anything to the story when they could have said that Ramirez was married to his Japanese wife circa AD 1300 instead of 600 B.C. and change nothing of the plot? |
| 244 | ** The Masamune that Ramirez once met most likely wasn't the historical Masamune. Not only the dates don't match, but real Masamune did not have a daughter named Shikiko (and if he had, she wouldn't be a princess). Ramirez outright calls his sword "the only one of its kind" in the movie, a point that is reinforced by Dr. Wyatt saying the sword's existence doesn't make any sense. |
| 245 | * Why does the Kurgan's voice permanently change after he gets a SlashedThroat? It's implied that immortals can [[HealingFactor just heal everything Wolverine style, except for an actual beheading.]] The only way this makes sense is if his throat somehow didn't quite heal right, in which case why doesn't this happen with any other immortal's injuries (such as Connor having scars from being shot multiple times.) |
| 246 | ** It does indeed seem proper neck wounds don't heal correctly, as demonstrated by the Kurgan and Kalas. The reasons for this, aside from being dramatically appropriate, are never addressed. |
| 247 | * What would have happened if Kastagir had actually killed the Kurgan? [[FriendOrIdolDecision would he and Connor then try to kill each other? Or would they decide their friendship is more important than the Prize after all?]] |
| 248 | ** Possibly. Maybe the same force that compelled them to travel to the "faraway land" of New York would have compelled them to fight, as well. Maybe not. One of the strengths of the franchise is its mystery, and the weakest entire are invariably those that try and solve those mysteries. |
| 249 | * In the TV show, Ritchie is given a rapier by Duncan as his first sword. But rapier's are light, stabbing weapons, not ideal for decapitations. Obviously they change that for the show since Ritchie has a few kills under his belt with it, but why give Ritchie a sword that's impractical against heavier blades that other immortals use, like longswords, or katanas? |
| 250 | ** Rapiers are best at thrusting, but they can still cut quite devastatingly. Those blades are long, with a lot of edge to slice through tissue as you draw or push the blade along the neck. Now, they're not ideal beheading weapons (not heavy enough in the blade, especially near the tip, to be really choppy), but then katanas aren't ideal for beheading, either ([[KatanasAreJustBetter despite what some claim]]). And the franchise has always skirted around just how difficult lopping someone's head off actually is, so pretty much anything with an edge and sufficient length can do the job. |
| 251 | * How would younger immortals born in this day and age feasibly be able to survive the Game, let alone win it, unless they cheat? Ritchie was lucky having Duncan train him up even before his immortality kicked in, but Duncan was raised in a time where you would know at least someone had combat training with a sword, and could get training in swordplay, and so he has 400 years or so of practical combat and wartime experience. Nowadays, unless you have access to a good dojo, or mortal teacher, or immortal teacher who won't kill you out of hand, you aren't likely to get the thorough combat training you'd need to use a sword, and even then, you're likely to be up against people with literally centuries of experience under their belt. |
| 252 | ** Younger Immortals are always being portrayed as at a distinct disadvantage. Duncan in the first season was very nervous about taking on Greyson, who had a millennia on him if memory serves. Younger Immortals have to work hard and fast to train up to a level where they can defend themselves, and even they have to avoid certain notable badasses, like Xavier St. Cloud. |
| 253 | * How did the ex-marine Kirk Matunas not die when the Kurgan stabbed him in the chest and lifted him off the ground? |
| 254 | ** People can live through some pretty extreme injuries, more than most people would expect, especially if they can be given prompt medical attention. Obviously he was rushed to hospital and straight into surgery. |
| 255 | ** Also, Kurgan didn't stab him in the chest, but in the belly. Gut wounds like that can take ''days'' to kill someone, and it usually isn't the wound itself but things from your intestines leaking into places they're not supposed to be. With modern (at the time) medical care, it's entirely likely he survived and recovered. |
| 256 | * If Nash defeats Fasil in Madison Square Gardens, why do the police keep saying Fasil's body was found in New Jersey? |
| 257 | ** Kurgan also killed somebody in New Jersey the same week. When the NYPD are in the garage looking at Fasil's body one of them mentions an identical murder. |
| 258 | * When Connor sets off for his first battle, why is the cross on top of the church in the background on fire? |
| 259 | ** Someone I watched the film with once claimed burning a cross used to be a rallying call to war. I have no other source to corroborate that information, so take it for what it is. |
| 260 | * Why did the Kurgans eyes dilate near the end before Connor decapitated him. |
| 261 | ** The eyes dilate in response to adrenaline. For an immortal like Kurgan who didn't care about anyone else wasn't in danger of death for thousands of years, it's probably the first fear, and adrenaline he's felt in millennia. |
| 262 | * Why didn't Kurgan and Connor ever encounter one another, particularly shortly after Kurgan killed Ramirez and destroyed Connor's home? Connor was still living in the exact same spot (the cottage was made from the remnants of the tower), and he would want to avenge Ramirez, and Kurgan would have no reason to think his intended prey has left the area. Was Kurgan still 'full' from Ramirez's Quickening and needed time to digest it, or did he have some other pressing matter to attend to that caused him to leave the Highlands and never come back, while Connor stayed there for another fifty years? |
| 263 | ** From the Kurgan's point of view, that home belongs to Ramirez, not Conner. Remember, Ramirez lied and told the Kurgan that Heather was his woman. Heather probably went along with the lie to protect Conner. She also never told Conner about the assault, to prevent him from hunting the Kurgan before he was ready to fight him. She might have even told the Kurgan that Ramirez sent Conner away permanently to hunt heads and grow stronger. That would send the Kurgan out on a wild goose chase. So the Kurgan had no reason to return, and it made Conner's home the safest place for him to be while still a young and inexperienced immortal. |
| 264 | * Why does Kurgan [[GoOutWithASmile smile]] just before his head falls off? Is it just meant to show how crazy he is? |
| 265 | ** From the novelization and the stance that his body assumes right before toppling, I think it was meant to indicate that the Kurgan was so hard to kill it was all a delayed reaction to death. He simply doesn't want to finally die, and hadn't realized what happened to him. The novel describes it as ''For one moment, Macleod was not sure that the cut had been deep enough. Then the head lolled backwards. The cut was almost along the same line as the Ramirez wound. But this time it was deeper. Much deeper. The spinal cord had been severed. Only a thin strip of skin prevented the head from falling to the floor. It hung there: dangled from the cord of flesh. Yet the Kurgan was still not dead. The mouth flapped, though no sound came out. From the open neck, the exposed stump, energy gushed forth. The body danced and jerked, as if on live strings. The wound coruscated, like electrified glass. The Kurgan dropped to his knees. Macleod was amazed at the tenacity of the man. Still he clung on to life. Still he fought against death. His head flopped on the narrow bridge of skin, yet the body fought to stay upright. The strength of will behind such action was phenomenal. The hands opened and closed. Macleod thought that his enemy was going to reach up and replace the severed head on its stump. But the final gush of energy died. The body collapsed. It lay twitching at Macleod’s feet.'' |
| 266 | |
| 267 | * Does slashing an immortal in half kill him/her? It does separate the head from the body right? |
| 268 | ** Horizontally? No. You'll just crawl around without any legs and the wound in your torso will seal up. Vertically? You might eventually regenerate depending on how thoroughly you were cut in half, but would probably suffer permanent brain-damage from the separation and reattachment of your frontal lobes. Completely cut in half vertically will probably result in effectively permanent death, but no quickening until both sides of the neck are severed from both sides of the head (which the next immortal to come along and find you will do). |
| 269 | |
| 270 | * In the finale of the first film, why did the Kurgan go after Brenda when she hit him with a pipe, when he was SECONDS away from executing Connor? He was clearly enjoying taking his time going after her, enough that it let Connor get back to his feet and fetch his sword for the final showdown. I get the Kurgan is a sadist who just enjoys hurting people, but wouldn't some ''tiny'' amount of common sense tell him to just kil Connor and be done with it, ''then'' start playing cat-and-mouse with Brenda? |
| 271 | ** Instinct and overconfidence. In the broader picture, sure, Connor is the more dangerous threat. But at that particular moment, Connor is pretty much helpless and looks like he's all but defeated. Brenda isn't, however, and the Kurgan is outmatched; even though she's no real match for the Kurgan, if he just ignores her to focus on Connor then she could end up distracting him sufficiently to allow Connor to recover anyway, or could interfere in a way that prevents him from making the killing blow, or could even get lucky and do some actual damage. Also, Connor is an immortal swordsman, whereas Brenda is basically just some woman with a pipe; the Kurgan believes that she'll be easily and quickly dealt with. So the Kurgan reacts partly on instinct (take out the immediate threat rather than the less immediate threat) and partly because he's gambling that he'll be able to quickly take care of Brenda before Connor can get back on fighting form, ''then'' take care of Connor once and for all. He's wrong, of course, but it's not a wholly unreasonable move. |
| 272 | ** If you'll notice in his previous scenes, Kurgan gets [[AttentionDeficitOohShiny easily distracted a lot]], and gets into confrontations and situations with lots of people that should be beneath him, like the hotel clerk or the guy that saw him in the alleyway. He's there to kill Connor, but decides to take on Ramirez instead. At times it looks like he's acting on impulsive from one moment to the next. Surprised that he survived for so long with that. |
| 273 | ** Rachel says, when Kurgan leaves that taunting message on Connor's answering machine, "the endless killing's driven him mad." Of course, it's heavily implied Kurgan was a few fries short of a happy meal before he and Connor ever met. |
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