| 1 | {{Headscratchers}} for ''Series/{{Frasier}}''. New questions on the bottom. |
| 2 | |
| 3 | [[foldercontrol]] |
| 4 | |
| 5 | [[folder: Martin's Chair]] |
| 6 | * Martin's logic vis a vis his chair always bugged me. In the first season when Frasier got rid of it and replaced it with the swanky black vibrating chair, Martin explained that his attachment to his old chair had nothing to do with the way it looked, but rather his sentimental attachment to it because of the memories it held for him. Okay, fine. Makes perfect sense. But THEN fast forward to the episode where the chair was damaged and Frasier replaced it with a custom-made replica. Martin adored the reproduction and was happy with it from that point on, despite it NOT being his beloved chair that cased all those memories he cherished. So what was it that enchanted him about the chair? His emotional ties or the look of the chair itself? Was this CharacterizationMarchesOn or just sheer busted continuity? |
| 7 | ** I think it was CharacterizationMarchesOn; he was able to recognize the significance of Frasier's gesture, which made the new chair meaningful in its own way. |
| 8 | ** Besides which, whatever the reason behind Martin's fondness for his old chair (and it's most likely a mixture of both; the two aren't mutually exclusive), it's kind of academic at that point. In the first season example, the old chair is gone but it can be recovered; in the later example, the old chair is destroyed beyond repair. The old chair is just a sentimental signifier; since Martin's got the memories regardless of what happens to it, his choices are that he can either continue to wallow in bitterness and rage over what is, at the end of the day, just a chair, or he can accept Frasier's gift and gesture in the spirit it's intended in and adopt what is clearly an all-but-identical substitute. Since Martin is a relatively mature and decent man, he accepts the new chair. |
| 9 | ** I don't think it's a brand new chair, but the same one was reupholstered. Frasier did say that due to the material being discontinued, he had to special order it, therefore, it was afterwards the most expensive piece of furniture in the apartment. |
| 10 | ** Well, the chair was set on fire and dropped from a high balcony to the streets below, so it probably required much more than a reupholstering. Frasier mentions that he had a master builder "duplicate" it from old photographs, so it's likely a new chair built to reproduce the old one. |
| 11 | ** I think there's another angle to it. What Martin said at first about the sentimental value may or may not have been right, the chair symbolized something else to Martin. Everywhere Martin looks in that apartment, there's some kind of reminder that this is Frasier's place, he's only there because he's unable to live on his own. But then, right there in the middle of the room, is something that is unquestionably Martin's. I think to Martin the chair shows that he's not crashing with his son, this is his home. It's probably also why he makes such a big deal out of putting up the decorations he wants on Christmas. |
| 12 | [[/folder]] |
| 13 | |
| 14 | [[folder: Hate for Lilith]] |
| 15 | * Why does everyone say that Lilith's evil? Sure, she divorced Frasier, but she did a good job of raising Frederick (although it didn't seem to stop him from going through the various phases that he went through, but that's another story for another time), and it seems that she does love him. Plus Frasier and Lilith have been known to put their differences aside and work a problem out together (although one had [[HilarityEnsues hilarity ensuing afterward]]). Bebe, on the other hand... |
| 16 | ** Most likely it's due to guilt by association, or rather, name. Lilith of course is a name from antiquity referring to the queen of demons (this is even lampshaded in an episode late in the series' run). I don't think anyone considered her evil, but rather, cold. |
| 17 | *** I think that the initial evil is only at the very beginning of the series, when the wounds are fresh. Frasier discovered she was cheating on him and divorced her for this reason. She however won a bitter custody suit (or at least was hinted once or twice to have been very bitter). Frasier was upset enough by these events to have gotten on a ledge of a major Boston building and nearly jumped. Overtimes the wounds heal, but for the first few years he's like most non-custodial fathers, rather bitter. |
| 18 | *** I have defended Lilith time and again, as my significant other hates the Lilith character and always remarks that the Frasier episodes with Lilith were all awful. While I completely disagree with that assessment, and I really enjoy Lilith, there are still plenty of reasons for the other characters to have a problem with her. 1) She cheated on Frasier when they were married, then left him, leaving him at one of the lowest points of his life. 2) At times she's beyond cold, approaching absolute zero. She laughed out loud at Maris's wedding vows, and when she was told that Niles was hurt by it, she responded by saying (right in front of Niles): "I simply responded with the genuine spontaneous emotion I was feeling at the moment. But, if Niles is not mature enough to accept that, if he is so pitifully insecure, if he is in such need of validation, then I guess for some sense of familial harmony, I do apologize." 3) She can be extraordinarily selfish, too. Example: she showed up at Frasier's condo, unexpectedly, in the middle of the night, at the same time Madeline was finally giving him another chance after their disastrous trip to Bora Bora. Madeline was horrified to see Lilith again and ran off, and Lilith barely made any effort to stop her, or to apologize to Frasier for ruining his one chance at getting her back. Instead she expected him to concentrate on her issues. |
| 19 | ** As for Bebe, Frasier DOES think Bebe is evil (he even said that she doesn't need to worship the devil because he worships her). On the other hand, she's a damn good agent so Frasier can't really complain. |
| 20 | *** To quote Niles: "You have to call her? I thought you just drew a pentacle on the floor and cried 'I Summon Thee' three times." |
| 21 | *** Frasier can and frequently does complain. But since he's the universe's ButtMonkey any of his attempts to seize the moral high ground by firing her always wind up backfiring and humiliating him. After a certain point he just seems to give up and settle for agreeing with everyone that she's a [[CursedWithAwesome blessing from Hell]]. |
| 22 | ** In Martin and Niles' case, it's well established that the Crane men in the past have been pathologically incapable of tolerating any of the women that one of them falls for (with the exceptions of the women they eventually end up with by the end of the series), so it's probably some automatic instinct with them. In any case, to be fair Lilith's cold and rather arrogant personality doesn't really help her case much; she's a pretty difficult person to like, especially based on first appearances. |
| 23 | ** Lilith's "evil" was very much downplayed starting fairly early on, replaced with coldness, implying it was more that she was a very cool, clinical sort of person and this upset a lot of people. She was actually portrayed fairly sympathetically, even unto the story pointing out that everyone treating her like she was evil was being a bit of a jerk. |
| 24 | ** It's a RunningGag. 'Nuff said. |
| 25 | ** They're ''Frasier's'' family, not Lilith's. She was already a cold person, and when they got divorced, Frasier had every right to be bitter, and his family every right to be bitter on his behalf. I'm sure that Lilith's family thinks of him in similar terms. |
| 26 | ** Also, notice how most of the "Lilith's pure evil!" jokes tend to take place at the beginning of the series -- wounds between Frasier and Lilith are still raw, there's bitterness on both sides, Frasier's family are less inclined to cut her any slack, and so on. By the end, a lot of water's flown under a lot of bridges, so the bitterness is in the past, as are the jokes. |
| 27 | ** First impressions can leave quite an impact. Throughout the beginning of the first season Lilith is constantly referred to by others as something of a spiteful bitch (and as another troper noted, she almost drove Frasier to suicide). Then in the first episode where she actually does appear on screen she's introduced as, shock of shocks, a spiteful bitch. She calls in to Frasier's radio show ''specifically'' to insult and humiliate him in front of the entire city of Seattle, and then later at Frasier's apartment she goes out of her way to pointlessly mock almost everyone around her. Sure she softens up later in the episode, but it's no wonder that a lot of people weren't able to shake off that first impression. |
| 28 | ** On the subject of raising Frederick: I'm not sure I agree that she did a good job parenting. In one episode (the one where Lilith and Frasier go through a ZanyScheme to get Frederick into a prestigious private school I think) she comes off like a major HelicopterParents. The fact that Frederick turned out okay anyway is pure narrative convenience. |
| 29 | ** To be fair, one can have helicopter parent tendencies while still being, on the whole, a reasonably good parent. Plus, the show is a comedy, so by nature it will exaggerate the character's flaws in order to best facilitate comedy. |
| 30 | ** The more I think about it, the thing that bothers me the most about the way other characters regard Lilith is the way Martin seems to be ''terrified'' of her. In "Lilith Needs a Favor" the mere sound of a key in the front door has Martin running for his life because he's afraid it might be Lilith. And when she does show up he spends the whole visit hiding in the hallway. I know Lilith is kind of creepy but ''come on''. The man was a homicide detective! He fought in the Korean War! He was ''shot'' once! After all that, exactly what is it about Lilith that could possibly scare him? |
| 31 | *** [[RuleOfFunny All of that is why it's funny. It's a comedy show.]] |
| 32 | * Most likely because Lilith abandoned her young son and her husband to go and live underground with her boyfriend. That's a pretty filthy thing to do. |
| 33 | * It should perhaps be noted that Lilith frequently gives as good as she gets or even worse. The very first time in the series that we hear from her, she's calling Frasier's radio show for no other reason than to insult and embarrass him in front of the entire city; as far as what we see on the show goes, she fires the first shot. And the first time she sees Niles, her very first words to him are a snide crack about ''his wife's wedding vows'' (okay, it's Maris, but still), whereas Niles -- for all that it's clearly established that he doesn't like her -- has at least made an effort to be civil, albeit grudgingly. And then, when called out on how this is kind of a shitty thing to do with someone, passive-aggressively victim-blames Niles for getting upset while delivering an insincere 'apology' to him. Again, symbolically she fires the first shots. While 'evil' might be harsh, she's not exactly a wounded and bullied pure innocent without any blame whatsoever in all this. The characters are given clear reason to think ill of her. |
| 34 | * Well, I, for one, grew much fonder for Lilith after rewatching Cheers and seeing them in their happier days. They clearly still have a lot of happy memories and a strong connection. The thing is, Frasier and Lilith were married while living in Boston, and during that period Frasier was somewhat estranged from his family. I always got the sense that Martin and Niles got to know Lilith mostly during the divorce and custody battle, and so they also got Frasier point of view on her when he was at his most bitter. |
| 35 | [[/folder]] |
| 36 | |
| 37 | [[folder: Martin living with Frasier]] |
| 38 | * It's really sad how often Frasier was mocked for taking in his aged father and making sure he was nominally healthy and happy... often by his father himself. To hear other people tell it, Frasier living with his father was the equivalent of a 40-year-old still living in his parents' basement, not a successful person being a responsible son. |
| 39 | ** It's a reflection of a general societal trend that judges, fairly or not, a person's success and character by their ability to ultimately separate themselves from their parents. As for Martin doing it -- to be fair, he's often established as being a pretty crusty and at times ungrateful person. |
| 40 | *** Frasier did separate himself from his parents, however. Frasier isn't living with his father, his father is living with ''him''. That's a vitally important difference. Of course, ultimately it's just a running gag; the people mocking Frasier know full well he doesn't deserve it, but they think it's funny. |
| 41 | *** Yeah, but according to one episode, Agnes still lives with Principal Skinner. Doesn't matter what it is, it's more what it looks like. |
| 42 | *** That was Skinner's defense of the situation though, it is clearly not true. |
| 43 | *** I agree with that. With Frasier and his dad, you can see that it's his aging father having to live with him. With Skinner and his mom it looks like the other way around because she's so damn domineering. |
| 44 | *** I don't recall anyone who knew the real circumstances of Frasier's living situation thinking it was sad (or comparable to someone who's always lived in their parents' house). There were moments when Frasier would be speaking to someone who didn't know that he and his father lived together, and the person would make some sort of comment about it being sad when a middle-aged person lives with their parents, setting up some major awkwardness for Frasier. But I'm not aware of any situations where we had reason to believe that the person making the comment thought it was sad for a wealthy person to invite a convalescing parent into their home. |
| 45 | *** We may be overlooking the point here a little. It's not what it actually ''is'' -- it's what it ''looks like''. Fairly or not, there is a stereotype that a fairly large part of society holds to that someone who still lives with his or her parents is a "loser" or has somehow failed at life as an adult, for whatever reason. Yes, when you look more closely at the context there is an obvious difference between Principal Skinner and his mother (domineering MyBelovedSmother keeping spinelessly downtrodden adult child trapped) and Frasier and Martin (successful adult child caring for invalid aged parent) -- but most people who are inclined to belittle Frasier over this situation don't ''bother'' looking closely at the context and just assume that both cases are the same. Logically fallacious? Absolutely. But it would hardly be the first time that put-downs or bullying was based on anything other than logically impeccable reasoning. |
| 46 | ** To be honest, I always thought that most of the issues about this seemed to come from either Frasier or Martin themselves; Frasier in his moments of insecurity about his romantic life and his age, and Martin in his moments of insecurity about no longer being the alpha-figure of the family and having to adjust to living in someone else's household and follow their rules. There was the episode where it's revealed that Frasier and Martin have been living together longer than Frasier's ever sustained a romantic relationship, which prompts some light-hearted teasing on the part of their friends, but the tension in that episode is driven by Frasier's insecurity, not anyone else. Aside from a few thoughtless comments alluded to above, it seems that most people seem to consider Frasier's willingness to open his home to his father quite admirable. |
| 47 | [[/folder]] |
| 48 | |
| 49 | [[folder: Daphne's behavior]] |
| 50 | * So my problem with Niles/Daphne wasn't that they had no chemistry when they got together (BECAUSE THEY DID!!!), it was that it had such a bad effect on her. In the earlier seasons, she was so kooky and sweet and likable that it was obvious why he would be interested in her but later on, she's an unhappy (to me!), controlling shrew and he's giving her whatever she wants. It was kind of unsettling. |
| 51 | ** Agreed. At the end of the series, she was just a typical American sitcom love interest with a British accent. |
| 52 | ** It probably happened when Niles came to terms with the idea that Daphne isn't perfect. It would seem she took his revelation a bit too close to heart. |
| 53 | *** Props to the otherwise inferior season 10, which had Niles and Daphne having a lot of fun together. Once season 11 rolled around, Daphne got pregnant and hormonal (read megabitchy), but by her last scene in the finale she'd had a kid and went back to being nice. |
| 54 | ** I agree. At the beginning Daphne was a ditzy, charming {{Cloudcuckoolander}} and by the end she was just generic and bland. |
| 55 | *** I don't think it's quite fair to say that Daphne is entirely demanding and walks all over Niles. Let's not forget the episode Murder Most Maris, where Niles does something that I've never seen a man in fiction do before. He calls Daphne out for having had him ExiledToTheCouch. And it's revealed a few seconds later that Martin deliberately kept Niles out late at night because he felt Niles needed a break from Daphne's pregnancy induced moodiness during this difficult time, so it seems to me that Daphne was not always supposed to be thought of as in the right. |
| 56 | ** That wouldn't be fair to the depth of her character--rewatch the first few seasons. (Good god, watch "Dark Victory".) She's ''always'' been spiteful, sarcastic and a little shrill. Sometimes it can come out of nowhere--she can start a conversation cheerfully and end it ranting about her mother and taking it out on the Cranes. But mostly, the thing is that this happens whenever she's in a bad mood--like when they make her answer the door even though she's working, or when Frasier invaded her room. That's not to say it wasn't justified, or that she didn't cool off quickly, but she had her flaws even then. The unfortunate thing about her relationship with Niles is that it was rocky from the start--she was under stress from the situation with Mel and Donny, the pregnancy, the situation with Maris, etc. She was different, sure, and wasn't completely fair to Niles, but it seemed mostly based on what was going on at the time. And it's possible that she became less ditsy because she was ''in a relationship.'' It's one thing to act ditzy and sweet around your boss and friends, it's another thing to do that with a boyfriend, to whom you're supposed to be on equal footing. She probably didn't want to risk having a relationship like the one with her mother, where she pretends to be happy and lets the other walk all over her, and overcompensated a little. |
| 57 | *** Same poster, but I looked back over the show and you're right, there is a season where she gets disproportionately upset with Niles a lot. It's the one where she gets pregnant. Someone's already brought up the hormones, but this happened ''long'' after she and Niles got together. I think your memory is being a bit selective. |
| 58 | *** I see it this way: despite Jane Leeves' suggestions, Daphne never realised that Niles had fallen in love with her, was astonished that he chose her over the educated, cultured and well-off kind of women that he and Frasier usually seem to fall her. Even after the issues that led to her gaining weight have been resolved, she is still, subconsciously, worried that she will fail Niles' standards, and that this will lead to them developing the kind of weird semi-estranged relationship Niles had before with Maris, or even falling out of love with her. Her snappishness is one way of coping with these worries. |
| 59 | ** Daphne's behavior in Murder Most Maris and related episodes seemed more out of left field for me because of how she reacted to Maris' contacting Niles in the first place. Not because I thought it was strange that she would view Maris with contempt after seeing everything that she put Niles through, but upon reviewings I found it very odd how she seemed to take Maris' involvement so ''personally'', as if they had had a specific history together. She even describes it as "after everything she put ''us'' through", but really Maris has never put ''them'' through anything, only Niles. It honestly felt as though the writers had forgotten that ''Mel'' was the woman who put so much strain on Daphne and Niles' relationship, not Maris. If it had been Mel who was accused of murder and demanding support from Niles, her anger at Niles--not concern that he's being pushed around by his ex-wife again, but ''offended anger''--wouldn't be as out of left field. |
| 60 | ** In the case of "Murder Most Maris" (and any surrounding episodes), this can be somewhat justified at least by the fact that Daphne is pregnant at the time. Pregnancy can often result in increased irritability due to physical and hormonal changes, so Daphne was likely acting somewhat more 'irrationally' (for want of a better way of putting it) than she otherwise would have been due to that. In essence, where she might have have otherwise been annoyed but more understanding by the situation, her condition at the time led her to blow the situation out of proportion, and the continuity errors were her attempting to justify it to herself and Niles. |
| 61 | [[/folder]] |
| 62 | |
| 63 | [[folder: Women hating Frasier]] |
| 64 | * Why are women so harsh to Frasier? I know he has an extraordinary knack for getting himself into situations where he looks to be hideously in the wrong, but whenever he invariably begs them to give him a chance to explain, roughly none of them actually do. And whenever he recognizes that he's in a relationship for the wrong reasons and breaks up with the woman, they always take it so badly - for example, when he was dating the ex-girlfriend of one of his callers and broke it off because of professional ethics, she treated him like he was some kind of creep instead of an upstanding person making a difficult but necessary decision. |
| 65 | ** A lot of what Frasier does when he's pursuing a woman borders on creepy. Following them, hanging around hoping to pick them up when they've been dumped, meeting a total stranger at the airport hoping to "make a connection," and then following a different woman all the way to Mexico. Who does that and doesn't creep out/piss off the target? |
| 66 | ** RunningGag that was subverted toward the end of the final season, when his "true love," "the one," or whatever you want to call her, played by Laura Linney, was very much still in love with him after a series of horrible disasters involving a broken-down car and a night with a creepy backwoods family. |
| 67 | ** Main/NoSympathy. |
| 68 | ** I suppose also ''because'' of the fact that he has the knack for getting himself into situations where he ''looks'' like he's in the wrong; he might not be, but he's inadvertently pissed them off so much that they're inclined to think the worst of him anyway. Appearances count. |
| 69 | ** The "ex-girlfriend of one of his callers" was entirely unfair, but perhaps it's understandable that a mediocre person would react like that to being rejected in such a strange way in those circumstances. I just wish Frasier would have had the guts to keep his head and tell her something like "Remember you agreed I was right to tell him to leave you, and that was because of what he said about you, not because I promised you a replacement boyfriend." when she said something like "You tell my boyfriend to leave me and then won't go on dating me yourself for some stupid reason." |
| 70 | *** Yeah, Frasier considering or treating the woman as if she was 'mediocre' and high-and-mightily pointing out that she'd agreed that her previous boyfriend was right to dump her, however justified that point might be, would have ''really'' gone down well with her in that particular situation. Not. |
| 71 | ** To be fair to the girlfriend of the ex-caller, Frasier essentially advised her boyfriend to break it off with her, then started to make a move on her himself, and then very suddenly -- from her point of view, at least -- broke it off and started citing his professional ethics as a reason. Considering that there's a reasonable case to be made that if his professional ethics were as strong as he was making out they were he probably wouldn't have made a move on her or started dating her in the first place, it's not entirely unreasonable for her to conclude that he was merely dicking her around and hiding behind his 'ethics' as an excuse, and since she still doesn't know him very well at that point it's not like she has a lot of evidence to challenge that belief. |
| 72 | ** It's part that Frasier is a ButtMonkey of fate and partly that there's a certain amount of DoubleStandard in comedy, that a woman can refuse to hear a man's explanation and put all the blame on him and storm out without being seen as a complete bitch, whereas a man who did the same would almost certainly be portrayed as utterly unsympathetic bordering on cruel (or just stupid and arrogant). See for instance the episode where Frasier is won by a beautiful woman in a bachelor auction. She uses him for a free babysitting service while she goes off to do some other stuff before their date, and her daughter spends the night convincing Frasier the woman is a horrible, neglectful mother. Frasier is outraged and begins to confront the woman, who apparently expects Frasier to have been psychic enough to know what an absolute saint she is and not just assume her darling daughter was lying. (How nice to know that an adult's first thought on a child speaking about being abused is "I bet the little shit's making it all up.") She marches out, rubbing it in Frasier's face that she even gave one of her kidneys to her darling, wonderful daughter (who, remember, just spent the evening convincing a complete stranger she was a neglectful slut, [[KarmaHoudini but is absolved of all blame in the situation]].) The series, for how well-written it is, sometimes relies on a sort of twisted, spiteful inversion of ProtagonistCenteredMorality. |
| 73 | *** To be fair, Frasier could have approached that situation more calmly and reasonably than he did. Some of the mother's anger may have been displaced, but she was probably upset, after a long night of working, that Frasier started making accusations and calling her a bad mother without even asking for her side of the story. If it helps, her daughter probably got a talking to as well. |
| 74 | ** It also doesn't help that this is a show that loves the FawltyTowersPlot. For much of the series he seems to be trying for one-night stands or quick flings, and as such he tells rather flimsy lies (as when he tells a woman he's just recently become a vegetarian and loves animals) that can't possibly hold up for long. |
| 75 | [[/folder]] |
| 76 | |
| 77 | [[folder: Radio time delay]] |
| 78 | * Very specific FridgeLogic issue: there's one episode where someone calls into Frasier's radio show, and his "problem" is that his radio is giving him orders. The gag, of course, is that as Frasier attempts to counsel him, the man interprets this as "the voice in the radio" giving him further commands. It's a funny gag, but it only just now occurred to me (again, FridgeLogic) that almost all radio shows run on [[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_delay a delay of at least a few seconds]], making the gag virtually impossible. The conversation between Frasier, the caller, and "the radio" was perfectly in sync. |
| 79 | ** This is made worse by the fact that they use the delay as a gag in another episode when the caller keeps expecting to hear his conversation on the radio but can't. |
| 80 | *** Given how many times KACL changes station owners, it might help to imagine that the delay got added and/or subtracted by the new management. This also helps explain why Gil and Bulldog's shows alternately appear before or after Frasier's show without any consistency whatsoever. |
| 81 | *** RuleOfFunny. |
| 82 | ** Well, for a psychology show, I imagine there would be a delay, but there are still local morning shows where there isn't one at all. I might be dating myself, but back when you used to call in from land lines (which was a good chunk of Frasier's run), they'd make sure to tell you to turn down your radio before the producer put you on the air because you'd get feedback. |
| 83 | ** Community and noncommercial stations with their low budgets still tell you to do this, as they often can't afford Wang time tunnels or other digital delay equipment. |
| 84 | ** Also, even most national radio broadcasts didn't start using time delay until certain events in 2004. Namely, the infamous incident during the UsefulNotes/SuperBowl XXXVIII half-time show ([[{{BestKnownForTheFanservice}} you ALL know]] [[{{WardrobeMalfunction}} which one]]) and UsefulNotes/{{NASCAR}} driver Dale Earnhardt Jr.'s dropping a S-Bomb after winning at Talladega in October. |
| 85 | [[/folder]] |
| 86 | |
| 87 | [[folder: Martin needing Daphne]] |
| 88 | * Dad sure gets around a lot for needing a live-in caretaker. |
| 89 | ** FridgeLogic : When Daphne moves in, Martin does need her. When Frasier got him to agree to move in, he could get around a bit, but had trouble and was in danger of falling (again). Daphne's ''therapy'' improves his physical condition to the point where he doesn't need as much care. |
| 90 | ** I don't think he actually does need a live-in caretaker. If I remember rightly, in the first episode Frasier is horrified when Daphne reveals that she thinks it's live-in post, but he ends up having to comply because she was the only applicant Martin liked. |
| 91 | *** In "Dial M For Martin" Daphne realizes that Martin doesn't really need a live in caretaker, and decides to take another job. Hijinks ensue, and [[StatusQuoIsGod everything goes back to normal by the end of the episode.]] |
| 92 | ** The above person is correct. In the first episode, Martin moves in with Frasier not because he needs help all the time, but because he needs someone around 'just in case' - like if he falls and can't get up again because of his hip. Frasier originally hires Daphne as a part-time ''physiotherapist'', not caretaker. She's only live-in because, as noted above, of a misunderstanding and she was the only applicant Martin liked. |
| 93 | ** That and she does a lot of work around the house that Frasier would otherwise have to do himself or pay someone else to do |
| 94 | ** Martin isn't in the best of shape at the start of the series. Daphne periodically mentions that he would be much more mobile if he kept up with his exercises and and her decision to leave is because her physiotherapy helped Martin reach a point where he doesn't need actually need anyone, even 'just in case'. She ends up continuing to stay with Frasier and Martin both because StatusQuoIsGod and because she formed a familial bond with them. She only moves out once she marries Niles but still spends most of her time in Frasier's apartment anyway. |
| 95 | ** There's a theory that implies that Martin faked the severity of the injury to get closer with his sons, who, at that point, were extremely distant with him, with Frasier not even visiting him in like the years he lived in Boston, only coming home for his mother's funeral, and Niles marrying Maris, who Marty disapproved of. |
| 96 | ** Though considering that from what we see, Martin himself is arguably the most distant out of all of them -- he outright spurns Frasier's attempts to bond with or spend time with him in the pilot and the season three finale flashbacks -- this theory does raise some potential problems of its own. |
| 97 | * In "Come Lie With Me" when Daphne is spending more time at her boyfriends place Martin and Frasier get into a series of arguments about sponges, newspapers and the placement of Martins chair. Daphne comes by and absent mindedly fixes everything, so she's kept around for her role as a buffer as much as anything else. |
| 98 | [[/folder]] |
| 99 | |
| 100 | [[folder: Martin's timeline]] |
| 101 | * How old was Martin when he served in the Korean war? If he's 64 in Season 4, and he's only 21 years older than Frasier (which is a cheat in and of itself, John Mahoney is only 15 years older than Kelsey Grammar), that means he'd have had to lie about his age, join the police force, possibly make detective, and then marry Hester by the time he... actually, forget it, nothing about Martin needing to live with Frasier makes sense at all, it's just the conceptual leap you need to make to enjoy the show. |
| 102 | ** Math time... In 1996 he was 64 which means he was born in 1932, which means when the Korean war started he was 18... sounds good so far. That war ended when he was 21 though, so Frasier must have been conceived when he was on leave. Then he joined the police after that maybe. Unless someone can find something in the show (I don't really want to dig through 11 seasons of ''Frasier'' for this little thought experiment) that contradicts that time line, there's no reason it can't work, albeit it is a little unlikely. |
| 103 | *** Slight issue- Martin didn't meet Frasier's mother until after he joined the police force- they're explicitly stated to have met at a crime scene where she was working as a consultant. For her to be old enough to be a qualified psychiatrist, I'm reasonably sure she'd have to be in her mid 20's at least, so assuming Martin's roughly the same age, this widens the age gap between Martin and Frasier somewhat- albeit, not catastrophically, just by at most 5 years. |
| 104 | *** Maybe she was simply a few years older than him. |
| 105 | *** Plus it's stated that Frasier's mother was pregnant with him at her wedding, so he was conceived fairly early in his parents' relationship. |
| 106 | *** Perhaps he was on the police force and in the reserve? |
| 107 | *** He made it quite clear that he was kidding about meeting Hester over the chalk outline of a human body. It was just a joke. We don't know when or how they met. Also, how the hell is an actor having an age difference of ''six measly years'' from his character a cheat?! Must it be exactly the same?! |
| 108 | *** He was kidding about them drawing eyes and a smile on the chalk-outline, but they did meet over a body. It gets referred to a couple of time - like the time when Niles freaks out what "the dancing gingerbread-men" that they always had at their anniversary really were supposed to be. |
| 109 | *** He's never said anything about serving in Korea for the duration of the war; maybe he earned an honorable discharge before it ended? |
| 110 | *** One wonders if, perhaps, Martin was wounded in action during his service in Korea, and as a result maybe spent some time at the 4077th M*A*S*H? |
| 111 | *** Sadly, Martin and Daphne talk about the programme MASH in a later episode, and mention Colonel Potter and Hawkeye as characters, so MASH is just a series in the Frasier universe. |
| 112 | ** Possible explanation, using some of the information above. Martin is born in 1932, turns 18 in 1950 and is sent out to Korea. He does, say, a year out there before returning in 1951, and joins the Seattle Police Department. He is called to a murder scene and meets Hester, they fall in love according to his story in "Adventures in Paradise Part 1". At no point does he mention he was a detective back then - he may well have just been a uniformed cop. Maybe he was still "the rookie"! Hester was probably quite a few years older if she was already a qualified psychiatrist. Anyway, he and Hester start dating and concieve Frasier, so they marry quickly before Frasier appears in 1952, later having Niles in 1957. He joins the mounted police before eventually becoming a detective later in his service, before having to retire in 1991 following him being shot in the hip. |
| 113 | |
| 114 | Although he does mention "thirty years in the Seattle Police Department" a few times, so that does contradict some of what I've said... |
| 115 | [[/folder]] |
| 116 | |
| 117 | [[folder: Hospital prediction]] |
| 118 | * In the episode "Rooms with a View", Daphne passes by a hospital room near the end, and in continuing with the theme of a hospital having memories, there's a vision of Niles and Daphne welcoming a new addition to their family. I'm all for SugarWiki/HeartwarmingMoments, but that's predicting the future, not remembering something. I guess one of the screenwriters must have been reading a little too much ''[[Literature/AliceInWonderland Through the Looking Glass]]''. ;) |
| 119 | ** The whole point of this is showing that she can now think about the future again. While Niles is having surgery she breaks down and says "There's no tomorrow, no next year, there's ''nothing'' until he comes out of that operating room and I know he's OK." This little scene is her ''imagining'' the future - because she ''can'', again. |
| 120 | ** The hospital is having a FlashForward. |
| 121 | *** Translation: "It is a poor sort of memory that only works one way." ;P |
| 122 | ** What I found odd was that in that flash-forward thing they had two daughters. When their first child is born in the final episode it's a boy. |
| 123 | *** Two girls and a boy? |
| 124 | ** Daphne is psychic in bouts. |
| 125 | ** That's because of RealitySubtext; the producer David Angell died during the 9/11 attacks, and so the son was named David after him. |
| 126 | ** Could be that we were just seeing a possible future. |
| 127 | ** I always thought the whole episode was set in the future and the "present" was the hospital's memory. |
| 128 | *** Damn, that's pretty mind-blowing. |
| 129 | [[/folder]] |
| 130 | |
| 131 | [[folder: Frasier killing an old lady?]] |
| 132 | * In the episode "Radio Wars" during the end credits Frasier takes the medication of the old lady who was trying to take a picture of his butt and throws it into his apartment, then closes the door, preventing her from getting her medication! Does it bother anyone else that Frasier kills an old lady?! |
| 133 | ** I was more bothered by the potential aesop in that episode. Even though Martin said Frasier did not bring the string of pranks on himself, he said that just about everything Frasier and Niles did as kids, even the stuff that didn't inconvenience the bullies, still incurred their ire. So offhandedly he was saying yes he did bring it on himself. I know Frasier and Niles are adults at this point, but what kind of a thing is that to tell your children? That's pretty much like saying "If you were bullied during your childhood, chances are you probably deserved it." Or to put it another way, it's like saying "The secret to dealing with bullies is to have a father that's even worse." Nice thing to teach the kids, isn't it? |
| 134 | *** No, it's not like that at all. Allow me to illustrate. In some women's self defense classes they give tips on what actions women should or shouldn't take in order to prevent sexual assault. Things like staying in public areas where other people can see you, not glancing around like you're lost, maintaining an outward air of confidence and purpose, and so on. In general they can be summed up thusly: "Don't make yourself a target." Now I ask you, how was Martin's advice any different? |
| 135 | *** Timing. As in past tense. Note that in those classes they give advice on how to avoid, to even as you say "prevent sexual assault". Now change that to AFTER a woman has been sexually assaulted, it is not giving advice on how to prevent it but it would at that point be "You should have done ----- so therefore you are somewhat to blame for being sexually assaulted. Martin told them that they somewhat brought it on themselves. I doubt those self defense classes would tell you to tell a woman that AFTER she was raped. |
| 136 | *** I doubt very much that any self-defence class would phrase it like that. They would say "This is what you need to do to stop it happening again." |
| 137 | *** It should perhaps also be noted that Martin's point in that episode is less that the bullies are justified in targeting Frasier and Niles because they have classy interests and more because Frasier and Niles use their classy interests to make other people feel stupid and themselves superior. Martin himself even notes that he has no problem with his sons looking up to [[Series/TheAvengers1960s John Steed]] as a hero and wanting to emulate his admirable qualities; the problem was when it stemmed to them running around wearing bowler hats, which is an arguably unnecessary and slightly pretentious affectation for a pair of kids. |
| 138 | ** The very next thing he says is that he intends to trade her the medication for the photograph, so there's no implication that he killed her. As for the second point, though, that's completely true... I'm a bit puzzled by Martin's sudden, "You boys did things to bring it on yourselves", given that earlier episodes expressed something more like 'bullies are bad but sometimes they have a FreudianExcuse'. |
| 139 | ** The old lady is the same one from earlier in the episode where Frasier is bartering her medication for the photo; the clear implication with the second one is that he's adding a 'stop taking photos of my butt entirely' clause to the earlier deal. As for the aesop, I always took it not so much as the boys bringing it on themselves as not making things any easier for themselves; after all, no one arguably deserves getting their car stolen, but if they leave it unlocked and unsecured in a bad neighbourhood with the keys in the ignition, it's not really going to be ''that'' surprising if someone rips it off; sure they have the ''right'' to do that in theory, but common sense dictates that someone who's already inclined to steal a car could particularly give a damn about their rights there. Similarly, Frasier and Niles were already pretty big targets for bullies anyway, so indulging in their pretensions to such a degree probably didn't make them any less of a target. Still a bit of a aesop because Frasier and Niles did and do have the right to go about however the hell they want without getting victimized for it, but then Martin's never been the most sympathetic observer of their pretensions anyway. |
| 140 | ** Just watched this episode - at least in their initial encounter, the woman purposely rolls her medication across the floor so that he would bend over to pick it up. There's a strong chance she put something that sounded like pills into an old bottle rather than risk losing life-saving medication, considering she was doing something blatantly insulting to him and it's not unreasonable that he would storm off with the medication still in hand. Not to mention, there's no reason she wouldn't be able to get a refill of her medication, she'd just have to explain the situation to her doctor. |
| 141 | *** Considering how crestfallen she looks when Frasier slams the door on her again, it is likely that there's something she wants or needs in that bottle. |
| 142 | *** The episode didn't have an aesop at all: the lesson, as delivered by Frasier's speech at the end, was that you should BeYourself regardless of how much mockery that invites. To do otherwise is to let the bullies win. |
| 143 | *** Not to quibble, but that's the very definition of an aesop; it's a lesson the story wants you to learn. |
| 144 | ** This troper interpreted it as more of an example of how Frasier/Niles and Martin live on opposite ends of the SlidingScaleOfIdealismVersusCynicism. It's been established many times that Martin is more of a realist when it comes to how the world works and how people behave, whereas Frasier and Niles operate on naivete and optimism. Martin is also not afraid to say, "People suck and the world isn't perfect, and you can't change it by wishing." It would be like him saying, if you're gay that's your own business and you shouldn't be ashamed of who you are, but you can't expect to walk into a biker bar, acting [[CampGay extremely flamboyant about it]] and not expect to get your ass kicked. It may be harsh and sound like it's placing blame on the victim, but unfortunately it's true. |
| 145 | *** Another good example of this is the episode about Bob Briscoe being regarded as a hero for stopping a criminal with a gun. Only he and Frasier know that he was actually trying to use a pregnant woman as a [[NarmCharm "human shield"]]. Frasier spends the whole episode trying to break down Bob's conscience so he will tell the truth, and when he fails, almost has a breakdown until Martin ''tricks'' Bob by saying someone has a gun, prompting Bob to put his own mother up as a human shield (which everyone sees). |
| 146 | ** Describing Frasier as 'killing' this woman is, at the very least, rather histrionic. It's not like he's locking her in a dungeon and depriving her of her medication, or taking it from her while she's on the floor gasping for breath or anything; all she has to do to get it back is knock on the door, apologise, promise to stop taking embarrassing pictures of him and surrender any copies that she might already have. Since it's her own fault she's lost her medication in the first place, given that the only reason Frasier has it is because she dropped it on the floor again to take another picture of his butt, this is hardly that unreasonable. |
| 147 | ** Frankly if she died she had it coming. She used the fact that Frasier is a moral and kind person who cares about other people, ''specifically her'', to try and take advantage of him by dropping her pills because she knew he'd pick them up for her and thus give her an opening to take a humiliating picture of him. Anyone that uses someone else's kindness be cruel to them isn't someone that deserves consideration. |
| 148 | *** "If she died she had it coming"? I mean, taking advantage of someone's kindness to take a humiliating photo of them is definitely a Jerkass move, but it's hardly one requiring death as a punishment. We can tone it down a little here. |
| 149 | *** We *can*... but we *won't*. We spend a great deal of time dealing with a world where causality doesn't match our moral expectations, and a rare case where justice and pragmatism agree arises, and you don't expect us to savor it? If she died because she lost access to her meds by trying to use them to humiliate and embarass another? Serves. Her. Right. |
| 150 | *** You can "savor" whatever you want... just as I can point out that gleefully "savoring" the prospect of an old woman's death over what was, ultimately, just an embarrassing but ultimately harmless prank is disproportionate to her offense and, if sincerely felt, is all up frankly pretty weird and disconcerting. Talk about the causality of moral justice all you want, but at the end of the day she's just a bit of a jerk, she's not Heinrich Himmler; even Frasier, the actual victim here, would almost certainly find the prospect of this woman's death over the matter to be an unnecessarily excessive karmic reckoning. |
| 151 | [[/folder]] |
| 152 | |
| 153 | [[folder: Frasier not knowing a French accent]] |
| 154 | * Frasier played so fast and loose with continuity that picking up errors is really an exercise in futility. You could go on for years. However, the one which always sticks in my head and which mystified me completely was when a caller to Frasier's show with an obvious French accent kept saying that her problem was with 'my monsieur' - a phrase which apparently baffled Frasier and which he couldn't understand. To the point of not even being able to make a reasonable, logical guess as to its meaning. This from a man who was a fluent French speaker? I think not! |
| 155 | ** She also had a lisp, but I could figure out what she meant easily enough. You'd think Frasier would be able to figure it out at least the first time she repeated it, even if he didn't get it immediately. |
| 156 | ** Agreed. That joke would have been much better if Frasier had just started speaking French with her and then be baffled by Roz's DeathGlare. |
| 157 | ** To be fair, someone with a heavy accent switching between one language and another while speaking very hurriedly and being obviously upset at the time can be a bit confusing and difficult to follow at times, even if you are familiar with both languages in question. Frasier might speak French, but that doesn't necessarily make him a flawless translator (although the example in this case is fairly easy to guess, conceded -- we'd probably have to make a leap of faith under RuleOfFunny). |
| 158 | ** Maybe Frasier had been taking those pills for his back again! |
| 159 | * Whenever Frasier and / or Niles speak French on the series, they speak as Americans who learned French mostly through textbooks and literature and spent some time abroad in a French-speaking context - their accents, while acceptable, are pretty rough and clearly non-native (which of course is contingent on Kelsey Grammar's and David Hyde Pierce's abilities), and their vocabulary choices (such as when Frasier is "translating" for Roz's one-off French boyfriend) are "correct" but stilted and sometimes a little off. They might have decent listening comprehension and some amount of conversational skill, but they are ''far'' from fluent. In other words, it's not at all surprising that Frasier, who doesn't speak or hear French regularly, would not immediately recognize a French word spoken by a native French speaker. |
| 160 | * Not to mention that no French speaker would ''ever'' refer to his or her (male) partner as "monsieur" - époux, mec, mari, copain, compagnon, homme, sure, but not "monsieur". In or out of context, "my monsieur" is nonsensical and would, not surprisingly, cause confusion even to someone familiar with French. |
| 161 | * The woman has a very heavy accent, is speaking in what is to her a second language, is speaking quite quickly, is clearly rather emotional, is talking to Frasier over a phone line, and French is still a second language to Frasier. Even if Frasier has a reasonably fluent command over the French language, these aren't exactly ideal conditions for perfect, flawless communication. The issue isn't that Frasier doesn't understand the word 'Monsieur', it's that he can't clearly make out that it ''is'' the word 'Monsieur' due to the various other communication issues going on. |
| 162 | [[/folder]] |
| 163 | |
| 164 | [[folder: The name Ichabod being ridiculous]] |
| 165 | * On one episode, a pre-school reject's Niles' and Daphne's baby's application because Roz named the child "Ichabod" Crane and they think its a joke application. Do the writers have any idea what people name their kids today? Real educators have seen so many Angels and Destinies and Apples and Moseses they wouldn't bat an eye at a child named after a literary character. |
| 166 | ** Well, a prestigious school like that one would never accept a child with as silly a name as Apple or Destiny or Renesmee, of course. |
| 167 | *** Well, unless they were super famous, like Apple Paltrow-Martin, or something. In the case of Daphne and Niles, they're just run of the mill people to this school. They weren't really losing out by assuming that it was a joke. Regardless, RuleOfFunny. |
| 168 | ** Ichabod Crane is the name of the protagonist of sleepy hollow which makes it sound like a joke name, it's not the fact that it's ichabod, it's that it's ichabod crane. |
| 169 | *** If anything, wouldn't "Ichabod Crane" be something of an ObligatoryJoke name? |
| 170 | *** If you think it's obligatory to make jokes out of a kid's name please never have children. |
| 171 | [[/folder]] |
| 172 | |
| 173 | [[folder: Niles in the pirate outfit]] |
| 174 | * In the episode "A Midwinter Night's Dream", Niles turns up at Frasier's apartment dressed as a pirate after having been thrown out of his home by Maris. He tells the story of his attempt to spice up his marriage by leaving a map to his whereabouts for Maris, and waiting in the linen closet wearing nothing but an handily-positioned eye-patch. However, unfortunately Maris was unimpressed, giving him just enough time to put his clothes on before kicking him out. Which begs the question: why the hell did he put the pirate outfit on? |
| 175 | ** Presumably because Maris was freaking out in her typical neurotic and high-strung fashion, he had to get out of there quickly and it was the closest thing to hand. |
| 176 | *** Fair enough, but there was also a question in my mind regarding this: why did Niles have a full pirate outfit in the first place if he only planned to play with Maris using just the patch and cutlass? |
| 177 | *** The way I think of it is Niles rented a pirates costume for this occasion, arrived home took off his suit etc and placed them in the laundry then took the cutlass and patch from the pirate costume and put them on, leaving the pirate costume in the bag on his bed then, when the maid found him and started screaming, he panicked ran out of the closet and headed to his room and, in his panic, grabbed the first available set of clothing (the pirate costume) hence why he was wearing it when Maris chucked him out,. Another alternate explanation is that, although he was only wearing the patch and the cutlass in the cupboard, he would still have needed to get from his room to the closet (especially as he would be leaving a lot of clues to his whereabouts round the house as part of the game) so maybe he put the full costume on to 'get into the spirit of things' and protect his modesty until, after getting in the closet he could undress to just the patch and cutlass? this would mean that the pirate costume was the first, and only, set of clothes he could get his hands on after the maid found him. |
| 178 | [[/folder]] |
| 179 | |
| 180 | [[folder: Niles attacking Martin]] |
| 181 | * Exactly what was going on in Niles' mind in "Dial M For Martin"? While the episode is hilarious, there's something in the way he acts that his actions were more than just unconscious ones...Was he really willing to hurt his own father just to make Daphne stay? Creepy. |
| 182 | ** He wasn't trying to hurt Martin, conciously or subconciously. It was all a misunderstanding. His acting may have made it look like it was intentional, but that's just RuleOfFunny. Frasier involes a lot of farce and one of the big jokes in farce is misunderstandings. |
| 183 | ** There could also be an element of UnreliableNarrator here. We're viewing this from Martin's perspective, and Martin has been accidentally primed by a chance comment from Frasier to be paranoid over Niles' intentions towards him in relation to getting Daphne to stay. It's equally possible that in actuality, Niles' "She can't leave! She just can't!" bit was a ''lot'' less sinister towards Martin, but Martin just blew it out of proportion. |
| 184 | [[/folder]] |
| 185 | |
| 186 | [[folder: English sport obsession]] |
| 187 | * I'm watching the episode where Sam comes to visit Frasier, and Daphne mentions that she doesn't understand the American obsession with sport. How the heck would an ''English'' woman not be familiar with sport obsession? |
| 188 | ** You know how people talk when they're just being flirts. |
| 189 | *** Yes, but it's one thing to play down or deny personal traits when flirting, it's another to deny one that applies to an entire nationality. It's not exactly a little known fact, there's a good chance Sam could have responded with "Doesn't England have tons of football hooligans?" |
| 190 | *** Yeah, like Sam isn't ten times as much of a flirt himself! |
| 191 | *** And let's face it, Daphne's an attractive woman and it's an off-the-cuff comment meant mostly inoffensively in a flirty conversation; Sam's hardly going to provoke a UsefulNotes/MisplacedNationalism shouting match over it by bringing up hooliganism. |
| 192 | ** PlayedForLaughs? |
| 193 | ** Good old HypocriticalHumor at work. Also, she's possibly using 'sport' in this context to refer to sports like baseball, basketball and American Football, which are not incredibly popular in Britain and which many British people fail to see the point of just as many Americans no doubt fail the point of sports such as cricket and football[=/=]soccer. Besides which, Daphne could simply just be someone who's not overly interested in sport -- believe it or not, such people exist in both Britain and America -- and is bringing up the 'American' obsession with sport simply because the people she's talking to are all, you know, Americans. One of whom (Sam) used to be a professional ball player. |
| 194 | ** It could also be part of Daphne's character. Her brothers were "football hooligans," whose participation usually consisted of rolling sports patrons. She hates her brothers' behaviour, so it's not a stretch to believe that she dislikes the entire sports culture, whether American or British. |
| 195 | [[/folder]] |
| 196 | |
| 197 | [[folder: Niles' nosebleeds]] |
| 198 | * In one or two episodes it is established that whenever Niles does something he considers immoral, his nose bleeds as a psychosomatic manifestation. However, this is completely dropped the other 99% of the time he does something he knows is wrong in almost every episode of the series. |
| 199 | ** Specifically, he has nosebleeds when he tells an outright lie rather than just doing something a bit dodgy. And in a very nice Continuity Nod, in scenes when he is involved in a deception you can often see David Hyde Pierce briefly touch his fingers to his nose at one point. Seeing as Niles isn't usually the focus of the shot when this happens, I imagine it's an unscripted touch. |
| 200 | *** He tells outright lies (full, complete, flagrant lies, down to the very wording) all of the time. I couldn't list all the episodes in which he does it if my life depended on it. [[FawltyTowersPlot It's just the way the show rolls.]] He gets the psychosomatic nosebleeds in maybe two or three episodes at the very most. If he touches his nose, he doesn't do it a whole hell of a lot, or else I think I would have noticed it. |
| 201 | *** This episode takes place fairly early in the series' run (series 3, if I recall). Since Niles gradually becomes a bit less neurotic over the course of the series, this could be a symptom of his development in this regard. |
| 202 | *** ''Episode'' 3 would be closer; The episode where it was introduced was early in the first production year. |
| 203 | *** Sometimes throughout the series, you can catch Niles sniffing after lying (even when his nosebleeds aren't referred to at all). This isn't consistent, but a good RunningGag if you look for it. |
| 204 | *** While it is clearly a case of characterization marching on, it still works in the context of the first season. Frasier knew what he was doing (dating a patient's girlfriend) was unethical, but he felt he could get away with it (that is why he kept seeing if he was nauseous). Niles repeatedly pushes the envelope as to what he can get away with, so the sniffing is a way of checking "Did I go too far? Is my nose bleeding?". Which also fits one of the overall themes of the shoe being that the Cranes (particularly Frasier) can't get away with anything. |
| 205 | [[/folder]] |
| 206 | |
| 207 | [[folder: The Road Warrior]] |
| 208 | * Why does Martin's numberplate that's supposed to be an abbreviation of "Road Warrior" have an E in it? |
| 209 | ** If you don't have room for the "io" in "Warrior" you'd be better off with an "e" there than an "i" or an "o." The suffix -er is strongly associated with "one who does something," so even though it isn't actually used in the word "warrior," it would probably make more sense to people than an ending it with the last two letters "ir" or "or." Well, actually, the option that would make the most sense would be to choose something that fits, but Martin's not the type to worry too much about something like that. |
| 210 | *** The "E-R" was probably meant to be pronounced phonetically: "E-R" = "I-OR". |
| 211 | ** The whole point of the gag, let's not forget, is that hardly anyone who sees the plate recognizes the intended abbreviation. |
| 212 | ** Chances are, someone has already personalized a numberplate that was closer to "Road Warrior" and that was the best he could get. |
| 213 | [[/folder]] |
| 214 | |
| 215 | [[folder: Maris' anorexia]] |
| 216 | * Why didn't two psychiatrists (or anybody else for that matter) realize that Maris was anorexic? If someone in the viewer's family was anorexic, I can imagine that a lot of the jokes about her verged on DudeNotFunny. |
| 217 | ** On the contrary, this brother to an anorexic actually found the jokes somewhat cathardic. |
| 218 | ** She's not anorexic, she's an EldritchAbomination. Consider the totally impossible details. |
| 219 | *** ''How on EARTH can she calmly walk [[spoiler:through prison cell bars]]?'' Whenever Niles relays information about this to Frasier (or Daphne? This troper isn't sure) while they're in Frasier's apartment, he (Niles) ''doesn't seem surprised AT ALL!'' |
| 220 | *** She's an anorexic and surgical addict (the only time we kind of sort of see her is in a flashback in which Niles is talking to an emaciated, fully bandaged woman and saying, "Do cheer up, Maris; they can always take more off next time") whom everyone, including occasionally Niles himself, jokes about being a HumanoidAbomination. They're exaggerating. Although there ''is'' that one time Roz seems to have genuinely mistaken Maris for a coat rack she wasn't getting a very good look and it's not the show's way to dip into MagicalRealism. Before his death people made jokes about Michael Jackson hardly looking human after being made so skinny and deformed by his own surgical addiction; that didn't make Michael Jackson a literal HumanoidAbomination. |
| 221 | ---->'''Niles:''' The [4 digit] code into here is the same as Maris' ideal weight. This many pounds and this many ounces.\ |
| 222 | '''Frasier:''' My God, no one could possibly weigh that little and ''[[LargeHam live]]''! |
| 223 | *** In a later episode, mentioned in more detail below, the idea that Maris has a complicated eating disorder is fleshed out in more detail, with Niles noting that she was "chubby as a child" with her thinness a life-long struggle. It's also unclear to what extent some of the more bizarre suggestions of Maris' extreme thinness — "she once sprained her wrist putting too much dip on a cracker" — are either mean-spirited exaggerations and jokes on the part of other characters, who clearly find her vanity and hangups exasperating, or manifestations of Niles' gullibility. Maris also portrayed as being enormously paranoid, ignorant, and prone to fits of hysterical hypochondria. In other words, a woman who thinks a chocolate allergy entitles her to park in the handicapped spot is probably not entirely credible when she claims her spine is becoming compressed from wearing large earrings. |
| 224 | ** They are all definitely aware of Maris' anorexia, but the show never identifies it as such. Identifying radio callers with possible psychological disorders is different in practice than affirming a regular character (even an unseen one) with one. She does seem to have a therapist of her own, judging from the number of mood stabilizers she seems to be on ("take one or more as needed until trembling stops", from one episode, another where Niles is carrying $700 on his person because Maris wanted him to stop at the drugstore). |
| 225 | ** And the show makes it obvious that the characters would not typically mock someone's eating disorder, as evidenced by the episode in which Niles comes into the cafe in astonishment, to point out to Frasier and Roz an overweight woman going into a bakery for the third time to get donuts. They rebuke him for his seemingly insensitive and voyeuristic reaction to someone struggling with food, until he says "that's Maris!" and they immediately rush to the window to see for themselves. So for anyone else, they would not talk that way. The reason they mock Maris is not because of the anorexia itself, but because of how horrifically she treats Niles. She has been abusive to him for years and it seems that their jabs at her do make him feel a little better, and as their relationship deteriorates, he begins to join in on the joking. It's not limited to her weight, they also joke frequently about how [[IceQueen icy]] she is, and how [[FirstWorldProblems obliviously]] [[ScrewTheRulesIHaveMoney entitled]], [[RichBitch selfish]] and [[DramaQueen dramatic]] she is. |
| 226 | ** There's also the simple fact that while suffering from anorexia is a condition worthy of feeling sympathy for someone, an anorexic is not by themselves fundamentally, completely and automatically sympathetic in every aspect of their life or personality. The sympathy that might otherwise be generated for Maris due to her struggles with eating disorders is likely counter-balanced by her overall horrible personality. |
| 227 | ** Also... look, it's a cliche to handwave any Headscratchers people raise about a comedy show with RuleOfFunny, but this one legitimately does fall under RuleOfFunny. The writers are making jokes, and comedy isn't always fluffy and lovely and kind and woke about societal issues and the kinds of problems people have in their personal lives. We're meant to laugh at Maris, among the characteristics we're given about Maris is her anorexia and body image issues, so jokes tend to arise about those elements of her personality. You don't have to find them funny or approve of them, but that's the reason they get made. |
| 228 | [[/folder]] |
| 229 | |
| 230 | [[folder: The new station manager's refusal to elaborate]] |
| 231 | * What was the point of the new station manager, the black haired woman that became an eventual love interest? [Kate Costas, played by Mercedes Ruehl] She was kinda bitchy and in her intro ep, she told Frasier to do a show about sex, but didn't bother saying that it was about infidelity and how it affects others until the end of the episode! |
| 232 | ** The point there, though, was that bitchy or not Frasier was just taking an knee-jerk opposition to anything she was suggesting, regardless of whether or not the idea may have had merit; if he's reacted with a bit more of an open-mind he could have come to this conclusion himself (i.e. that doing 'themes' needn't be as tacky as he feared) or discussed it further with her until this became more apparent; instead, he starts digging his heels in from the start. |
| 233 | *** Frasier started out doing themed episodes on his radio show. While he may have slowly decided that themed episodes were unnecessary, annoying to do with exactly one theme for two hours, and/or inefficient and unfair to callers whose problems were important but didn't fit the subject, then tacky once he stopped doing them, it's still an odd contrast. |
| 234 | *** But that's the whole point; Frasier ''himself'' clearly at one point could see the value in doing theme shows, but objected here because he was automatically objecting to anything Kate said. Note how he didn't bring up any of these possible (reasonable) objections at the time; he was at least in part clearly just objecting because it was Kate doing the suggesting, not because the idea itself wasn't totally without merit. |
| 235 | *** Remember also that a number of the theme shows we see were utter failures, with either no one calling in or with people calling in who didn't have the problem that was sought. Frasier knows they fail more often than not and doesn't want to put up with them again. |
| 236 | ** Note that said station manager didn't exactly explain her position from the start either. And from the way she acts in subsequent episodes it's entirely possible that her claims of wanting it to be a classy, emotional, meaningful sort of theme were something she came up with later to try and manage Frasier's reactions. She clearly has few scruples about what it takes to get ratings, as shown by how she encourages Bulldog to harass Frasier on-air for more ratings for his own show. Frasier probably ''is'' reacting in knee-jerk fashion, but he probably wasn't wrong in thinking that she'd have him doing shallow sex-based programming if she could, either. |
| 237 | ** If memory serves, she didn't specifically say which themes the themed shows were going to deal with. Infidelity was just one of the suggestions she tossed out as an example. Presumably she didn't feel the need to explain her position because she didn't feel like she'd have to be defending it. |
| 238 | *** She said "Devote a whole show to people having extramarital affairs; or devote a whole show to people with aberrant sexual practices." So she did mention what ''kind'' of sexual shows she wanted, but not details -- may have figured Frasier would understand she meant them to be handled from a psychological-insight point of view, as she elaborated later. Frasier might have assumed she meant "sex, sex, sexsexsexsexsex" because he was already subtly attracted to Kate -- he may not even have realized it himself. Perhaps I am giving the writers too much credit, but this kind of subtext happens in theater all the time, and it's perfect for a show about a psychiatrist. |
| 239 | [[/folder]] |
| 240 | |
| 241 | [[folder: Frasier at KACL]] |
| 242 | * How did Frasier get the job at KACL in the first place? His early shows with Roz are disasters, showing he has no real experience of radio at all. He's just a random psychiatrist from out East wanting to move back home. Wouldn't they, at the very least, have asked for a demo tape or something before giving him the gig? |
| 243 | ** Maybe they gave him a tryout in his interview and he impressed them but his nerves took over on his first few shows? After all, its only his first show that's shown to be a disaster, and who hasnt had a nervy first day at work?? |
| 244 | *** Especially considering that first day at work was being broadcast to (potentially) hundreds of thousands of people. |
| 245 | ** It wouldn't be surprising if most people listen to his show for the [[SoBadItsGood entertainment value of his blunders]]. I'd listen to it in the car. The best part about this theory is that Frasier would be mortified if he knew. |
| 246 | ** This is [[TruthInTelevision Truth in Radio]]. Elsewhere I've troped on the diaster area which was the Radio/SarahKennedy morning show on Creator/BBC Radio: SK made frequent gaffes, [[CreatorMeltdown on-air meltdowns]] and there was a suspicion that she turned up to work in a highly medicated state. People used to wake up early to catch her show in the hope of listening to a classic Kennedy gaffe. |
| 247 | ** Don't forget that Frasier had originally worked with a different producer, as explained in "You Can Go Home Again." |
| 248 | ** As mentioned above, KACL seems to switch ownership a lot, and different owners seem prone to chasing fads of the moment. It seems likely Frasier was hired as part of the early 90s craze for call-in therapists, with finding someone to fill that role more important than finding someone competent at it. |
| 249 | ** Also, Frasier's show is live radio. There's a greater chance for blunders in live radio simply because it's spontaneous and there's more room for error, and you can't edit out the errors like you would if it was pre-recorded. And, of course, we see Frasier's blunders more than his successful shows because it's a sitcom and [[RuleOfFunny they're funny]]. Chances are nine out of ten of Frasier's shows are reasonably competent, professional and successful, but we don't see them because they wouldn't be funny. Even the most efficiently-run production in the world would look hopelessly inept if all you ever saw were the times the performers made a mistake. |
| 250 | [[/folder]] |
| 251 | |
| 252 | [[folder:The gallery's fraud]] |
| 253 | * One early episode deals with Frasier purchasing a painting from an art gallery and finding out that it is a forgery -- the artist says as much, and would presumably sign an affidavit to that effect. The gallery refuses to refund him and Martin mocks his attempts to call the police on him. Frasier is reduced to contemplate getting revenge by tossing a brick through the gallery's front window. I wonder what Martin was thinking. Fraud is indeed a crime! If it's hard to prosecute through the police, why not file a lawsuit? No art gallery would want the negative publicity of being accused of selling a forgery (especially by someone with a public profile like Frasier's) and would immediately refund his money. |
| 254 | ** PoliceAreUseless seems to be what they were going for there. In RealLife, of course, probably even the most hardened and obnoxious forces would not laugh at you and hang up just because the felony you were reporting happened to have to do with an artsy subject, but this is the same force that produced Marty. It is to be assumed that most of them are as biased against anything artistic, intellectual, or stereotypically snooty as he is. |
| 255 | *** Either that or over-worked. Seattle is a large city, and -- although I've never actually lived there -- I assume the police department has limited resources and a high amount of violent or high-profile felonies to deal with; Martin even says that the police have murders, rapes and muggings to be dealing with. Even in the fraud department there's probably all sorts of things going on. Sadly, a single forged painting is unlikely to be a high priority or receive much of a response -- even if Frasier did lodge a report, there probably wouldn't be much time or resources to follow it up. |
| 256 | *** I lived there for a year, and this jibes as true at least in anecdote. I never saw them enforce a law that smokers (one myself) couldn't do so within ten feet of an establishment. They also never bothered with jaywalking, though that's probably because the traffic is such you have to obey the law most of the time. |
| 257 | *** No matter how busy a police department would be, whether in large city or a small town, if a well-to-do resident like Frasier reported a fraud of such a magnitude (expensive property worth thousands of dollars), they would not ignore it. |
| 258 | *** The point isn't so much that they'd ignore it, it's that they probably wouldn't have a lot of resources to devote to his case if he did report it, no matter how well-to-do Frasier is. We're perhaps overstating the "magnitude" of the matter a little bit here; yes, it's an expensive painting, but it's still a single forged painting that's probably only worth at most of a couple of thousand dollars, this isn't exactly a major international criminal cartel we're discussing here. It's almost certainly not worth more than, say, a small new car, and yet how many cars get stolen in a given year with the thieves never identified? The police have limited resources and lots of other crimes that even Frasier would probably concede are far more urgent than his matter to deal with -- they're not going to halt the investigation into the Westside Rapist and the cocaine trade and reassign resources just because some moderately wealthy and well-known guy's got a forged painting he's not happy with. And it's not like Frasier knows who the forger actually is or, as mentioned elsewhere, that he can prove the gallery ''knowingly'' sold him a forgery, so at most a detective is going maybe ask a few questions at the gallery, probably not come up with much, have other matters come across his or her desk and just file a report on an investigation that doesn't really go anywhere. |
| 259 | *** They didn't laugh at Frasier because his crime was artsy, they laughed at him because he requested an obviously silly, overly-specific and probably made-up department to report it to. Then Marty hung him up before he could actually report the matter. |
| 260 | ** Frasier considers the possibility of a lawsuit, but Martin talks him out of it by saying that even if he does win, it'll take years and the lawyer bills will be enormous. |
| 261 | *** In reality, such a lawsuit would be extremely unlikely to actually reach court. |
| 262 | ** Another question raised by that episode is: would not the artist be extremely angry that a gallery has sold a painting misrepresenting it as hers? Yet she vanishes from the narrative quickly. |
| 263 | *** Probably -- but that's a separate matter from Frasier's complaint against the gallery. In either case, the gallery could easily claim they bought the painting in good faith from people who plausibly presented themselves as the artist's representatives (she seems to be quite wealthy and successful, so it's unlikely she handles all her own sales personally). |
| 264 | ** Also Frasier considers giving the gallery bad publicity on his radio show, but Niles cautions him that doing so would be slander and they would sue him for every penny he had; if Frasier was telling the truth this would not be slander, and it would only cost the gallery more money and prove Frasier's point when he has the proof they swindled him right there on his wall, should they try to sue him. Admittedly Niles is no lawyer, but you would think perhaps Frasier would look into it a bit more if he was really that desperate to get his money back. |
| 265 | *** Niles is well aware that when Frasier's in a snit he tends to get loud, overdramatic and start shouting without thinking through the consequences, and if he's left to vent on the radio he's probably going to say something he'll end up regretting. Especially since while Frasier ''can'' prove that the painting is forged, he ''can't'' prove that the gallery ''knowingly'' sold him a forgery, and if he was to say anything of the sort (and given what we know about Frasier, given a head full of steam and the opportunity to rant he'd probably let slip something of the nature) the gallery could easily claim they were taken in by the forger as well, and it's likely no one could prove otherwise. Net result? Lengthy legal proceedings, Frasier probably ends up losing. Niles is bringing him back to reality to make sure he doesn't go off all half-cocked and get himself into trouble. |
| 266 | *** I have talked this over with several friends who work in the art world, either as artists or in galleries, and all agree: the gallery has a legal and ethical responsibility to vet the works they sell. Whether or not it's fraud (which would require them to have knowingly misrepresented the painting) is almost irrelevant. |
| 267 | *** The gallery certainly does have that responsibility, but the issue of fraud ''becomes'' relevant if Frasier publicly accuses them of such without having anything to back it up, which is what he's intending to do (or at least likely to end up doing) by badmouthing them on his show. The gallery could easily argue that they vetted the painting's credentials to the best of their ability, but no vetting process is 100% foolproof (otherwise frauds like this would ''never'' happen), and this was just a case that slipped through the cracks -- and Frasier has no way of proving otherwise. That's where Niles' point about slander comes in; as was said above, Frasier can prove they sold him a forgery, but he can't prove they ''knowingly'' sold him a forgery, so publicly accusing them of such is just going to get him into trouble. |
| 268 | *** The thing is, Frasier only considers the (half-cocked) step of publicly accusing them of fraud because they don't do the reasonable thing and return his money, which they almost certainly would because the bad publicity of such an accusation could ruin them even if it weren't true. After all, Frasier's reasonably plugged in to Seattle society, and even without the platform of his radio show, news of the gallery's unprofessional behavior (which has already spread, since so many people were at his unveiling party) is in a position to seriously damage their business. They should be in major damage control mode, and yet instead they decide to double down on their dickishness and risk repercussions that would make the price of one painting minor in comparison. |
| 269 | *** Unless they consider that Frasier would want to keep his getting had as quiet as possible (they only knew the artist said she didn't paint it, not that all of Frasier's friends know as well). And, as mentioned, they just have to keep blaming other people and it would probably cost Frasier more in the long run in terms of legal fees. Because it is safe to assume the art gallery has a good team of lawyers on retainer, so Frasier would have to hire a particularly good lawyer as well. Any settlement would likely be for the price of the painting and possibly a fraction of legal fees, so Frasier would still be out money in the long run. So while there are many legal avenues Frasier could have pursued, he would never really have "won" persay. Which, sadly, is all too often true. |
| 270 | ** Ultimately, we can probably boil this down to RuleOfDrama. In reality, the gallery probably would have allowed Frasier to return the painting for his money back, if only to maintain goodwill and a good reputation. But a story where Frasier buys a painting, learns from the artist that it's a fake, takes it to the gallery to return it... and gets his money back and an apology from the owner probably wouldn't have been quite as dramatically interesting to watch. |
| 271 | ** There are also some hints that the gallery itself is a bit sketchy, for all its veneer of class and refinement. If it's a criminal operation, then they didn't give Frasier his money because bilking him out of it was the whole point. And they were brazen about it for reasons noted above; they gamble both that their predominantly wealthy clientele would rather soak up the financial cost of any fraud and keep things quiet rather than have the world know they were taken in by a con, and that the police would have bigger things occupying their attention than one gallery selling overpriced and questionably legitimate paintings. |
| 272 | * I think Martin was trying to say that it would be easier for Frasier to forget about it rather than pursue legal action. Unfortunately Martin was right about the legal system...it likely would take years and thousands of dollars for the case to make it to court, at which point the few hundred dollars Fras was seeking to recoup would have long been swallowed up by legal fees. It's also worth noting that Frasier is a millionaire who thought nothing of blowing $4,000 on a lunch, so the forgery was basically a drop in the bucket for him. |
| 273 | ** A fair point overall, but while Frasier is pretty wealthy compared to most, "millionaire" may be a bit of a stretch; regarding the $4000 lunch, he only spends that because he gets embroiled in a petty rivalry with Niles over it and is actually mortified when he comes to his senses and realises what he's done, heavily suggesting that this is actually a significant financial loss for him (although probably not a crippling one). While ultimately he can likely swallow the cost of the fraud when all is said and done, he almost certainly isn't part of the 1% and doesn't have money to burn in the same way that, say, Maris does. |
| 274 | [[/folder]] |
| 275 | |
| 276 | [[folder:The Nanny G bed]] |
| 277 | * One thing that annoyed this troper is the episode when Nanny G made an appearance. Frasier ended up naked in her big showbed on stage when they lost track of time. She makes him get out of bed, perform a ridiculously awkward looking dance while dressed as a baby while leaving the stage. What i want to know is why he couldnt just have waited in the bed (which was scripted to fly into the rafters) until the show was over and then slip away. It was handwaved that it went up fast into the rafters but, so what? Even if he can't handle high-speeds or heights he has a bed to hide in so he can't see the height and/or throw up in. The bed has a headboard so its not like he would have been squashed against the roof or anything. |
| 278 | ** I can only guess that there would have been no way to get down while the bed was in the rafters and if he waited until the bed was lowred back down, he probably would have been discovered. |
| 279 | ** Another possibility is that they were panicked and not thinking clearly. As I recall, all this was happening in the middle of a live show, so they weren't in a position, mentally or physically, to be thinking straight. |
| 280 | ** I got the impression that it would move fast enough to potentially throw Frasier off, since there's not a lot to grab onto on a bed. |
| 281 | ** Also, depending on what the bed is made out of (and it was probably made as cheaply as possible), Frasier's weight may have been sufficient to break it and/or the wires it was attached to once it was in the air. And even if he wasn't hurt, a naked man falling onto the stage isn't something anyone involved wants. |
| 282 | [[/folder]] |
| 283 | |
| 284 | [[folder: Frasier's lifestyle while unemployed]] |
| 285 | * During the first half of Season 6, Frasier is unemployed for a long time... Yet he can still afford to live in his luxury apartment, pay for Daphne's work, and in general spend money just like he did when he was working. Where does the money come from? It's not like the series takes place in some fantasy world where monetary problems don't exist. Roz is unemployed just like Frasier is, and she clearly has to cut down her expenses. There's even an episode where Frasier is (wrongly) worried about Roz spending too much money while unemployed, yet his own spending doesn't seem to bother him at all. And when Niles is divorcing Maris, he has to move from ''his'' luxury apartment to a much more modest one, change his car, eat cheap food, and so on, even though he's still working. Maybe Frasier has a lot of savings or something, but in that case the writers could've at least mentioned it. |
| 286 | ** Frasier lives in a condo, i.e. he ''owns'' it. They also establish early on that he invests a lot, and unlike Niles he still had all his credit cards(and would still have a really good credit rating after only a few months of unemployment. He seems to be unemployed for about three or four months. Doesn't seem like it would be hard for him to keep up his usual routine with for that long. |
| 287 | *** Even if you own a condo outright and don't have mortgage payments, you still have monthly expenses including insurance, condo fees (which are likely quite high in a posh building like that), and utilities (water, electricity, and heating). I can't find the article but I once read an article where they broke down Frasier's lifestyle and they said he'd have to make about $200,000 per year to support himself and all those people. That said, he would have had some savings (at least 3-6 months of expenses), and if he's collecting employment insurance, he'd be receiving about 60% of his wages, so he could get by. |
| 288 | ** As far as Daphne's wages, Martin was injured on duty as a police officer because of this much of the cost of his physio therapy would be covered by his insurance. Sure they wouldn't pay for a live in full time therapist/maid but it would help subsidize her wages. As well Martin must have his own savings and pension to help out with bills. He was always seen as sensible and was able to afford his own apartment and only moved in with Frasier because of his infirmity not financial reasons. |
| 289 | *** Also, the pilot episode established that Niles and Maris were willing to cover half the cost of a physical therapist; granted, this is literally the only time their involvement is mentioned throughout the series. On top of that, since it unexpectedly became a live-in position, perhaps Frasier was able to pay her less than he otherwise would have. |
| 290 | ** Frasier was also paid more than Roz while they were working and thus was able to save more and was in a better overall position when they were finally not working. And when he's concerned about her spending, it's specifically about her spending money that he gave her to help with essentials on frivolous luxuries. He's not shown to worry about her spending at all when it's her own money. Furthermore, it's heavily implied that he's not entirely wrong to do so; while Roz cows him with a self-righteous tirade and a cheque, once he's gone she has to turn to Bulldog to borrow money to cover the cheque, heavily implying that she ''has'' been spending the money he loaned her frivolously. |
| 291 | ** Also, Frasier's parents have a cabin in the mountains, so they must have been either comfortable or smart with money. Roz's parents are divorced, so they probably lost a lot of money there (assuming they had more expensive lawyers than Frasier's and Lillith's). |
| 292 | *** Hester was a psychiatrist, so her salary may have made them comfortable financially, maybe Hester's parents were wealthy, and some of the comfortable lifestyle they had came from an inheritance that Hesters parents gave in her will, but we wouldn't know because not much is revealed about Hester's parents, although in cheers Season 4, Frasier does mention his ancestors coming to America with a fortune, which most interpret as a lie (it wouldht be the only time Frasier lied about his family in cheers though), but he could've been referring to Hester's side. |
| 293 | ** In season 5, "Roz and the Schnoz", Roz tells Daphne about a lot of cosmetic fix-its she had when she was young. In season 3 she mentions wanting a butt lift. Maybe she's got a thing for cosmetic surgery (it seems to be common in the Frasier-verse... Maris and Mel, for example). |
| 294 | ** Frasier's unemployment lasts about nine episodes ("Good Grief" to "Roz, A Loan"). Assuming each week's episode takes place roughly a week apart for the characters, that's just over two months. If we add in the (roughly) four month break between the last episode of Season Five and the beginning of Season Six, that gives us about six months, maybe seven. Assuming Frasier has some decent savings accrued and his investments haven't completely crashed, that's a fairly reasonable amount of time for him to be without work without it denting his lifestyle too much. Of course, as others have noted there's the question of how he's affording such an opulent lifestyle to begin with, but it's fiction and WillingSuspensionOfDisbelief has to kick in at some point. |
| 295 | ** Also worth noting that beyond his usual expenses (utilities, groceries, etc.), Frasier doesn't have a vindictive ex-wife spitefully freezing off practically every avenue of income he has, a ridiculously expensive multi-level apartment eating away his finances and greedy lawyers exploiting him. Niles's financial issues were a direct result of his divorce and profligate spending draining him dry. Frasier, however, doesn't have the same excessive demands on his purse, so while he no doubt has to tighten his belt a bit he's not in the same position where he's just bleeding money like Niles is. |
| 296 | [[/folder]] |
| 297 | |
| 298 | [[folder: Frasier's money]] |
| 299 | * A more generalised question related to the previous one- where does Frasier's money come from in the first place? Firstly, he moved from Boston to completely start over so it's not as if he'd have a long established practice in Seattle (as Niles does). Secondly, a job as a regional talk radio shrink can't be paying all that much -- it might pay decently but the circles Frasier moves in are those of Seattle's elite. Thirdly, Frasier really spends extravagantly. The investment explanation is a bit of a stretch -- I suppose it might be possible if, during his time in Boston he made some really, really good investments, but as a relatively young psychiatrist (it takes a helluva long time to qualify as one) I'm not sure where he'd amass the amount of capital that would enable him to live this sort of lifestyle. |
| 300 | ** Celebrity, even if comparatively local, can still grease plenty of wheels; he might necessarily not be rolling in as much dough as some of the people he's hobnobbing with but having a name people have heard of could still probably open plenty of doors that could have otherwise been closed to him. As well as investments, he also probably makes a bit of money off endorsements, appearances, that kind of thing. |
| 301 | ** The episode with Frasier's old Oxford friend/accountant seemed to allude to this. Apparently, all of Frasier's accountants have warned about spending, prompting Frasier to cut back slightly, but his habits return to normal after Niles says that it's only the accountant's job to worry about his finances. People managing his income, like the accountant and Bebe, allow this to be handwaved I suppose. |
| 302 | ** 1) While it's a local radio show, it's not as if it's a local radio show for Middle Of Nowhere, Alabama. It's a local radio show for a large city. 2) Frasier is repeatedly implied to be one of the most highly-rated, perhaps in the top three, of radio personalities at his station, and quite high out of all the radio personalities in the city as well. 3) While there are jokes made about his stringent standards and screwups with sponsors, the sponsors he does take apparently pay him quite well. 4) There are various mentions that Frasier's show is occasionally picked up and rebroadcast by stations outside of Seattle as well, which would increase his fame and pay. To sum up: Frasier may be a local celebrity, but he's a big-time local celebrity of a bustling metropolis. |
| 303 | ** In a word: Bebe. The only reason he tolerates her is because she is supposed to be an amazing agent, and part of that reputation presumably entailed getting Frasier much more than he was worth. |
| 304 | ** I always assumed that it was a combination of his time in private practice, his salary from the radio show, and money that was.left to him by his mother when she died. |
| 305 | ** WordOfGod has suggested that Frasier's wealth in part comes from investing early in a Seattle tech start-up which began to pay out big during the 1990s. |
| 306 | [[/folder]] |
| 307 | |
| 308 | [[folder: Niles' lack of money in his divorce]] |
| 309 | * When Niles is going through his divorce, why is he so broke? I get that Maris was super rich, but as a psychiatrist, wouldn't he (maybe) be at his brother's level who at this point is on radio? I mean, they both love the same stuff, and have the same tastes, it just seems odd to me that he would not be able to afford to keep up the lifestyle. That storyline seemed to be about how Maris was the sole moneymaker. |
| 310 | ** I think Niles was just more reckless with money than Frasier. Look at his apartment. It had ''three'' floors just for one person. The episode where he moves shows that he's become accustomed to buying expensive things impulsively. |
| 311 | ** Maris had co-signed on ''all'' of his credit cards, and during the divorce she was able to freeze them all as well as their joint account, rendering him effectively broke until they could settle. |
| 312 | ** And it isn't a stretch to imagine Maris using her lawyers to keep an eye on where the money from Niles's practice went under the guise of "making sure he isn't hiding money/stealing her money". All of that would greatly limit Niles's assets. |
| 313 | ** Furthermore, being married to someone who not only was incredibly wealthy but also had her own over-indulgent habits clearly instilled in Niles some bad habits regarding spending and money management he found hard to shake once he was kicked off the gravy train -- such as the purchase of the apartment and expensive antique writing pens -- while Frasier, although clearly comfortably well off, is in nowhere near the same financial position that Niles was in with Maris, so no doubt had to learn to be more frugal and careful with money if he wanted to sustain himself in a comfortable fashion. Plus, throughout the series Frasier is consistently depicted as usually being endowed with just a little bit more common sense and practicality than Niles. So while they're about equal in taste and habit, Frasier probably saves a bit more for a rainy day while Niles not only refuses to contemplate the possibility of a rainy day but refuses to acknowledge it even as he's getting soaked. |
| 314 | ** And lastly, one of the reasons Niles hires Donny to represent him during the divorce is when everyone points out his original team of lawyers were overcharging him and may be prolonging the divorce themselves to make more off of Niles. |
| 315 | [[/folder]] |
| 316 | |
| 317 | [[folder: Phone working without electricity]] |
| 318 | * In the first-season episode where Niles and Daphne are alone at Maris's house in a thunderstorm, how did Daphne call Frasier to let him know that she was staying there after the storm knocked out the electricity? The episode aired in 1991, the first modern mobile phone network was activated in Europe in 1991, and I've seen no further evidence of either Daphne or Niles having a first-generation handheld portable phone. I didn't think any but the most electrically-secure phone networks stayed on and supplied power to the attacked phones when the power was out. |
| 319 | ** Phone lines generally run on a a completely separate electrical network than electrical utilities. [[http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/question62.htm The More You Know...]] |
| 320 | *** Cool, thanks. In retrospect, checking against my (now apparent apparent) assumption and experience on Google would have solved that. At least this will answer the question in the rare case that someone else comes here with the same concern. |
| 321 | ** Also, ''Frasier'' premiered in 1993. Characters have been seen with cell phones on many occasions before that episode, in fact [[TechMarchesOn they're difficult to miss.]] |
| 322 | *** In fact, Frasier is shown owning one of those first generation, suitcase-sized portable phones in a season 7 episode of ''Series/{{Cheers}}'' that aired in 1988. So it wouldn't be out of character for Frasier to own a cell phone in 1993, and if Frasier has one, [[SiblingRivalry you can be sure]] Niles has one too. |
| 323 | *** An entire little routine involved Niles' cellphone left behind at Frasier's place in "Shutout in Seattle pt. 1" (1999). You can see Frasier's phone too as he stands in the kitchen, calls Niles and Martin picks up in the front room, not realizing he's on Niles' phone. Frasier observes that Niles is never without his phone. |
| 324 | [[/folder]] |
| 325 | [[folder: Not knowing the Burke quote is apocryphal]] |
| 326 | * You'd think people as well-educated as Frasier and Niles would know that that Burke quote is [[http://tartarus.org/~martin/essays/burkequote.html apocryphal.]] (Niles claims he's got it framed.) |
| 327 | ** Even well-educated people don't know absolutely everything and can still be susceptible to believing commonly accepted but inaccurate 'facts'. Plus, it's in keeping with the fact that Frasier and Niles aren't quite as smart and knowledgable as they'd like to think. |
| 328 | [[/folder]] |
| 329 | |
| 330 | [[folder: Dog actor replacement]] |
| 331 | * When was the dog who played Eddie changed? I have been rewatching some episodes and I've noticed that in the early seasons Eddie has shaggy hair, but later seasons he has very short, sleek looking fur. I know at some point he was replaced by his son but it's a strange difference when you see him compared between seasons. |
| 332 | ** I think it was somewhere between seasons 8 and 9. |
| 333 | [[/folder]] |
| 334 | |
| 335 | [[folder: Genealogist taking the clock]] |
| 336 | * Would the genealogist in the Antiques Roadshow episode actually be able to just take the piece and leave with it? All he had was conjecture about how the Crane family had come to own a precious Romanov clock, and there's no way he'd be able to take it without a mountain of paperwork. I get that it was meant to be a punchline, poking at Frasier and Niles for wanting so badly to be from a royal family. Still, there's no way someone could just take a valuable and rare item from a private owner who had inherited it, even if there was circumstantial evidence that it had once been stolen. |
| 337 | ** Technically no, the Romanov expert had no legal authority to just up and take the clock away without the Crane brothers' permission. In fact he even pointed out that Frasier and Niles could have taken the matter to court. But he suggested that there was a lot of tawdry family history that would come to light if they did (something about Fraser and Niles' ancestor being a prostitute when she came to America) and the boys didn't want to be associated with such sordid rumors. They decided to just let him have the clock and let that be the end of it. |
| 338 | ** Also from what I've heard about Series/AntiquesRoadshow, it wouldn't be the first time that an appraiser pulled some shady bullshit as an excuse to walk off with a valuable antique while paying practically nothing for it. Take it as an AlternateCharacterInterpretation: The appraiser sizes Niles and Frasier up as being high-class and worried about their reputation, so he crafts a lie in order to humiliate them into letting him steal their family clock. TheBadGuyWins. |
| 339 | *** I think you have the sequence of events mixed up. It wasn't the appraiser from Antiques Roadshow who took the clock, it was a different person that Frasier and Niles reached out to, whom they thought was a potential buyer. |
| 340 | [[/folder]] |
| 341 | |
| 342 | [[folder: Difference between psychology and psychiatry]] |
| 343 | * Are the show's writers aware of the differences between psychology and psychiatry? As far as I can see Niles and Frasier don't have any patients with serious mental disorders. What they seem to do is life-coaching and psychotherapy without prescribing medication, which I believe is more of a psychologist's job. It's hard to believe that a snob like Frasier would throw years of medical training away for a job that someone with a BA could do (not that I think psychologists are in any way less scientific or less valuable than psychiatrists, I just think that's how Frasier would react). Even if we accept that Frasier wanted to get away from psychiatry and the KACL was ready to employ such a mis-qualified employee, how come Niles, who has his own private practice, doesn't seem to have any psychotic patients either? |
| 344 | ** The main difference is that psychiatrists can prescribe medication, they have an MD, a psychologist cannot. |
| 345 | ** According to The Other Wiki, the character holds an MD, a Ph.D, and an EdD. The latter two degrees are (to my limited knowledge) generally applied to research and (also according to Wiki) counselling. Perhaps Frasier attended medical school with an idea of going into behavioural research (like his mother) or academics (which is in line with his being a scholar), but found he enjoyed counselling more. And we're shown throughout the series that he is quite a good therapist. |
| 346 | ** It seems Niles and Frasier both trained to be psychiatrists (there are references in the show to their days in med school), but later on specialized in psychotherapy, specifically psychoanalysis (it's often mentioned that Frasier is a Freudian and Niles a Jungian). I think this is partially because writers don't really know the difference between psychiatry and psychotherapy, but it can also be justified for both characters. In ''Series/{{Cheers}}'' Frasier is seen treating patients with mental disorders, and he was originally introduced as a doctor Diane fell in love with while she was in a psychiatric hospital. However, Frasier is generally portrayed as a vain man, so it would make sense that he, given the opportunity, would trade a medical career for one that provides him fame and popularity. As for KACL hiring him, the bosses there probably don't know the difference between psychiatry and psychology either, so Frasier's credentials wouldn't really matter to him as long as he has a good radio personality. As for Niles, his patients are usually portrayed as neurotic upper-class folks similar to himself. Providing therapy for such people is probably a more lucrative and tidy job than treating patients with serious mental disorders, and it would certainly fit Niles' personality to choose the former option instead of the latter. |
| 347 | ** Niles has mentioned patients suffering from dissociative identity ("split personality"). Whether dissociative identity qualifies as a disorder or simply a quirk is up to debate (and may vary from individual to individual), it is something that would be treated by a medical doctor. |
| 348 | *** There is absolutely nothing up for debate; Dissociate Identity Disorder is called a disorder ''for a reason''. |
| 349 | *** Yes, and the reason is that *psychiatrists decided to name a condition that*. Of course the validity of psychiatric diagnoses is up for debate - it is literally up for debate every time the vote for what should be included or excluded in the next edition of the DSM comes up. |
| 350 | ** You don't have to be psychotic to see a psychiatrist ''or'' a psychologist. Not all mentally ill people are psychotic, and you don't have to be mentally ill to see a counselor or therapist. |
| 351 | *** True. You don't build a reputation like Niles' on just self-indulgent rich people with little or nothing wrong with them. While psychologists, [=LCSWs=] and even pastoral counselors also treat multiples since they tend to respond better to talk therapy/psychoanalysis (medication can often make things worse), given that a lot of multiples do a fair amount of inner WorldBuilding, Jungian therapy like what Niles does is ideal. |
| 352 | ** Psychiatrists often work with psychologists to supply patients who have simple neuroses with medication. The psychologist makes the diagnosis and recommends drug therapy, and the psychiatrist approves it and manages the patient's reaction to it. This isn't exactly glamorous work but it does provide a very steady income stream -- the psychiatrist can see six patients an hour and charge each one's insurance for a full appointment. |
| 353 | *** This kind of assembly-line approach is standard now, but Niles seems to be extremely experienced in actual counseling. |
| 354 | *** The two aren't mutually exclusive. Niles runs his own private practice, so he can pick and choose his patients and how he organises his practice as he sees fit; he can block off some days / some hours per day purely for rote consultation work as described above and then use the rest of his time for more in-depth consultations with his own patients. |
| 355 | ** Niles has the same credentials (M.D., Ph.D., and Ed.D) as Frasier, according to the Other Wiki, and "specializes in clinical psychosis." But realistically, we only spend half an hour a week with the characters and it's not a WorkCom, so their practice is only one small part of the show. He's unlikely to talk about his patients because of, you know, confidentiality. |
| 356 | ** The simple answer is that we don't see Niles and Frasier dealing with patients experiencing serious mental disorders because, well, that's not what the show's about. It's not a psychological procedural about a pair of psychiatrists dealing with severely traumatised people, it's a sitcom about the family and romantic life of a radio personality who happens to be trained as a psychiatrist, and who also happens to have a brother who is also a psychiatrist. Frasier doesn't really start practicing seriously again until towards the end of the show's run, and there are countless unseen moments of Niles' life where for all we know he's constantly dealing with people experiencing severe psychiatric issues. We just don't see them because he's not the main protagonist and the show doesn't really revolve around that part of his life. Plus, well, constantly bringing up severe psychiatric problems and mental trauma would likely be a bit of a downer for a comedy show. |
| 357 | ** Also, Frasier hasn't really "thrown away" his years of medical training; true, being a radio shrink is probably not as complex as being a clinical psychiatrist (as the show itself often points out), but as long as he's gained his license to practice and renews it when required, his qualifications remain his to use or not use as he wishes. |
| 358 | * How old is Frasier supposed to be, anyway? Kelsey Grammer was born in 1955, which makes him 29 as of his first appearance on ''Series/{{Cheers}}''. Assuming Frasier is the same age or a little older, the numbers don't quite match. He's supposed to hold several degrees, and on the [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frasier_Crane Other Wiki]], it seems to be handwaved as Frasier was some kind of "child prodigy," but there's no indication that he had anything other than a normal school run. So that means he attended college from 1973-1977, and medical school from 1977-1981. That means he was doing his residency (1981-1985, because a residency is four years after medical school) when he met Diane, as he started on Cheers in 1984. It commonly takes 4-7 years to earn a [=PhD=] and anywhere from 4-10 years to earn an Ed.D, and no mention is ever made of Frasier attending school, so when did he earn all these degrees? This in between his work and his whirlwind social life. It's also complicated by the fact that John Mahoney is only 14 years older than Kelsey Grammer (born 1940)! |
| 359 | ** Found it! Sort of, although the question isn't quite answered. He states he's 41 in a first season episode (which aired in March 1994). That puts his birthdate in 1952. So, Bachelor's 1970-1974, med school 1974-1978, and 4-7 years to do his [=PhD=]. If he finished his [=PhD=] in 1982 or 1984, the show does not give any indication when he did the second doctorate. |
| 360 | [[/folder]] |
| 361 | |
| 362 | [[folder: Daphne working as a maid]] |
| 363 | * Daphne is a physical therapist. It really bothers me that she gets constantly treated like a servant. |
| 364 | ** It's never spelled out explicitly, but it seems that whatever contract Daphne has with Frasier includes her working as a housekeeper. It's not like Marty needs a live-in, 24/7 physical therapist. |
| 365 | ** In the pilot, it's explicitly stated that the position was never supposed to be a live-in, 24/7 position; Daphne needed a place to live on top of a job and applied thinking it was a live-in post, but Martin liked her so overruled Frasier when he objected. Since Frasier is basically inconveniencing himself to accommodate her and is essentially paying her to live there on top of what Martin needs with regards to physical therapy, Daphne doing the housework is not her being treated as a servant but is in fact her earning her room and board. |
| 366 | ** Daphne herself brings this up occasionally, and Frasier usually replies that she's being heavily overpaid for ''just'' a physical therapist, as the troper above points out. The thing is that Frasier has never told her "do this or you're fired"... she starts doing those things on her own, of her own initiative, and the other characters come to take it for granted because she acts so much like a live-in maid that they start thinking of her as one. |
| 367 | *** Indeed, the show makes it clear that it is a combination of Daphne not wanting to live in a pig sty, a love of cooking, and a sense of obligation. And that Martin and Frasier are both taking advantage of her, as shown in one of the later episodes where she has moved out and Martin and Frasier bet on whether or not they can convince Daphne (and Niles) to cook and clean for them anyway. So its unlikely that her contract includes an obligation to be a housekeeper, but the mixture of a sense of obligation and jerk roommates largely puts her in that role. |
| 368 | ** For what it's worth, when Niles describes the position to Frasier while they're discussing it in the pilot, he mentions that they'd pay for someone who not only works on Martin's hip, but also cleans up and does various chores around the house. That might not have been in the final contract Frasier went for, but it ''was'' on the table at one point that the therapist would also work partly as a maid. |
| 369 | ** Bear in mind that while Daphne does cook and do housework, it still probably beats the hell out of working at a hospital or a doctor's office. Working for the Cranes gives her a free place to live and plenty of downtime during the day...if she has to do a couple loads of laundry, so be it. |
| 370 | ** Martin Crane needs a cane to walk. He's limited in what chores he CAN do, so doing chores might very well BE part of his wellness care. |
| 371 | [[/folder]] |
| 372 | |
| 373 | [[folder: Frasier's hair]] |
| 374 | * As the series begins, Frasier wears his hair the same way he did in ''Series/{{Cheers}}''. However, in the Season 3 finale, when Frasier thinks back to when he first came to work at KACL--he has the short-cut hairstyle he first adopts...at the beginning of Season 3. |
| 375 | ** Some people go through phases with their hair. First they grow it out, then they cut it short, then they grow it out again, and so on. That's the thing about hair. It's easy to change however you want. |
| 376 | ** Perhaps Frasier's hair grows quite quick? We don't know exactly how long it is between Frasier moving back to Seattle and the first episode, after all. He gets a nice haircut when he's first starting the job, lets it grow out when he's getting settled in, and so forth. |
| 377 | ** Plus there's a matter of practicality for the actors going on. Frasier's particular hairstyle doesn't exactly easily lend itself to a wig. They may have tried a few weave techniques and found none of them looked good, and so the options became: shoot the episode at the very beginning of a season after Kelsey Grammar's had a few months off to grow his hair (and also, force Kelsey Grammar to grow his hair), or use a very expensive weave or hair extension style for just one episode. It's not really a shock that they just decided to have him keep his hair as-is and let people stew over the inconsistency instead. |
| 378 | *** Of course the above point does seem to conflict with the fact that Season 11's "Crock Tales" makes it a ''point'' to show off the "old-season" hairstyles of Frasier, Niles, etc...just for a couple of scenes! (Of course, "Crock Tales" isn't exactly perfect in matters of "hair memory"--which leads us to...) |
| 379 | *** Although the whole point of "Crock Tales" was that it was a conscious tribute to the previous eleven years of the show and made a conscious effort (however convincing, as discussed below) to reproduce them, so of course they were going to splash out for some one-off costume effects; the fact that it was also one of the last episodes made and they didn't have to worry about future budgets would have helped as well. The Season 3 finale is a different matter, since they had to keep the budget in mind and probably decided it wasn't worth it just for a one-off episode that, for all it was based around an extended flashback, wasn't particularly special in the scheme of things. |
| 380 | *** Plus, well... it's hair. People cut their hair and grow it back all the time. It really ''isn't'' that big a deal. |
| 381 | ** If we ''really'' need to explain it, then this one can perhaps be slightly fudged into a bit of an UnreliableNarrator situation. The flashback is framed as a daydream or dream sequence that Frasier has while dozing off listening to his first episode. While the events themselves probably happened, technically we're not seeing the actual events but Frasier's imagining of them -- so while the real Frasier would have had his longer hair at the time, the 'memory' Frasier is simply imagining them happening to himself as he currently is, shorter haircut and all. |
| 382 | ** Guys, even for a headscratcher we're overthinking this. The episode in question states that Frasier's first radio broadcast takes place in May 1993. The series proper first aired in September 1993. That's plenty of time for a man to grow his hair out long after having cut it short. The obvious -- and really, only needed -- explanation is, as raised above, that Frasier cut his hair before starting his radio show, presumably in the interests of making a good impression on a new employer, before letting it grow out over the months as he grew more settled into his new life and role. |
| 383 | [[/folder]] |
| 384 | |
| 385 | [[folder: Hair Colors in "Crock Tales"]] |
| 386 | * As this Season 11 "faux-recap" episode works its way backwards in the series' timeline...it soon starts to show Daphne with hair that's almost ''black''. Eventually, Roz is given "black" hair, too. The problems is...neither of them, to my recollection, had hair ''that'' dark at ''any'' point in the series. Did the episode's "researchers" get bad copies of episodes from prior seasons, with weird coloration...? |
| 387 | ** I know it's petty, but those terrible wigs. They're so obviously the wrong colors and styles that I can't help wondering if "Crock Tales" was supposed to be self-parody. |
| 388 | ** Oh, like it's so impossible for human beings to want to try out a different color or different style for a short time. The flashbacks in Crock Tales just happened to catch Roz trying out a different hairstyle while she was unemployed. She was at that point getting her money from phone sex; maybe she applied with that hair thinking the dark color would make her look younger/more attractive (if she applied in person)? Daphne's hair is a little harder to handwave since it was just after she first had sex with Niles, and has distinctly different hair, but it's not impossible she tried that style for a short while. |
| 389 | [[/folder]] |
| 390 | |
| 391 | [[folder: Hester's death]] |
| 392 | * How long before the start of the series did Hester Crane die? I'm slightly confused here, as there's a reference to an episode of ''Cheers'' where she threatens to take a gun to Diane, so Martin's becoming a widower must have been not too long before his taking the bullet that brings Frasier to Seattle. |
| 393 | ** Hester is seen alive in an early episode of ''Cheers'', and several seasons later Frasier mentions she's dead, but he says it kinda casually, so the death must have happened a while ago. Between those two episodes, Hester or her death is never mentioned in ''Cheers'', so it's impossible to say when she died. As for Martin, his chronology probably doesn't fit with ''Cheers'', because in ''Cheers'' Frasier's dad is said to be dead. Martin being alive (and him being a cop) was a {{retcon}} done for ''Frasier''. |
| 394 | ** I believe at one point Martin mentions that Hester died about six months before he got shot, so that would make it a little less than a year before the start of ''Frasier''. Martin basically rattles it off as pointing out what a really crappy year he's had: he lost his wife, got shot, and lost his independence all in the same year. As for the whole RetCon of him being alive and a cop, they at least explain that in the episode where Sam comes to visit: the episode of ''Cheers'' where Frasier said he was dead, Frasier and he had apparently had an absolutely vicious fight over the phone ''that very night'' and Frasier was essentially venting his spleen by declaring his father was dead... as for lying about his job, to quote Frasier in the same episode, "You were dead, what did it matter?!" |
| 395 | ** "Room Full of Heroes" (S09E06) has Niles mention that Hester died "14 years ago;" assuming that the episode is set on Halloween 2001, that would mean she died in 1987, three years after her appearance on ''Cheers''. This also places her death at six years before ''Frasier'' started. For that matter, in the pilot, Martin says that he was shot two years before moving in with Frasier, so he was a widower for four years before the show began. (In a 1988 episode of ''Cheers'', Frasier said that his mother had died recently, so this all fits with a grace period of a few months.) |
| 396 | [[/folder]] |
| 397 | |
| 398 | [[folder: Cops not arresting for breaking and entering]] |
| 399 | * When Frasier and Niles found a skull under the floorboards of their old rental home, how did they manage to report a potential homicide without the cops busting them for ''breaking into a man's house and tearing up his floor''? |
| 400 | ** 1) RuleOfDrama and 2) even cops can (theoretically) prioritize, they were probably willing to overlook some non-malicious B&E due to the fact that the ones who had perpetrated it had apparently just uncovered a homicide. |
| 401 | *** Actually no they can't prioritize what laws they will enforce, also the evidence itself probably could not be used against the home owner because it was collected illegally. That is literally the reason why police have to get warrants to search your home. |
| 402 | *** Of course the police can and do prioritize. Otherwise you get: "Officer there's a woman being murdered" "Well right now I'm going after this jaywalker, so she will have to wait". |
| 403 | *** The ''police'' need a warrant. A private citizen can make a search that would be illegal if the police did it and turn evidence they find over, and it will be admissible as long as no law enforcement agency was involved (because asking someone to makes them an agent of the police.) This has gone before the supreme court before. The 4th amendment guarantees ''the government'' can't search you unreasonably. It doesn't apply to private citizens. |
| 404 | *** The police can't ''officially'' prioritise crimes, perhaps, but there is such a thing as [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enforcement_discretion enforcement discretion]], for what it's worth. Which makes perfect sense, considering that in many major jurisdictions like Seattle the police already have their hands full with a large number of major felonies, and the amount of trivial misdemeanors and minor crimes outnumber those exponentially. As mentioned above, a system where the police can't deal with the many major crimes they have on their books because they're being forced to address every single lesser crime that comes up is a frankly boneheaded system. |
| 405 | ** Also, let's not overstate what Frasier and Niles did here. The house was empty and on the market to be sold. It's not like there was anything valuable in there that they could have been trying to steal; they were just trying to recover an old childhood heirloom. They'd previously approached the homeowner for permission, so there was clearly an initial intent to do the right thing. And, well, they're two upper-middle-class white men with no criminal history. No, they shouldn't have broken in against the current homeowner's wishes, but that's not the kind of crime or the kind of circumstances that's going to get the book thrown at you even without discovering what you think is a murder. At most, it's going to get you a stern talking to from a uniformed officer and maybe a fine. |
| 406 | [[/folder]] |
| 407 | |
| 408 | [[folder: Frasier's Integrity]] |
| 409 | * Much is made in the show, especially by Niles, about Frasier's honesty and integrity, to the point that he's uncomfortable about giving vague answers in his brother's divorce hearing. And yet, there have been several episodes where Frasier will lie through his teeth to a woman he's interested in without hesitation. This has ranged from little fibs like telling a woman that he's a staunch animal lover, to saying that Martin is going senile while chatting up a woman who runs a retirement home. Granted, 90% of the time it's plain that he values honesty, but is this a case of InformedAttribute, or is it more DependingOnTheWriter? |
| 410 | ** It might be something specific to his dealings with women. Frasier has been frequently depicted as desperate to be in a relationship and very very bad at dealing with them (partially because the first three deep relationships he ever had ended in a betrayal). There's probably some cognitive dissonance involved, but because he wants a woman to love him so badly he might justify his behavior to himself along the lines of, "I'm not under oath", "it's a harmless fib", "I'll tell the truth later and we'll have a big laugh about it", "You always hide your flaws from your date", things of that nature. Note that when his integrity comes into play it usually had to do when he was legally and ethically obligated to tell the truth/behave according with his rules as a psychiatrist--the rules of dating aren't as clear cut. |
| 411 | ** Furthermore, the simple fact is that no one is 100% committed to honesty and integrity 100% of the time. No one. From time to time, everyone -- no matter how much they value integrity -- tells little white lies, teeny fibs or outright falsehoods if they think they'll benefit and no one will be harmed. From what we can tell, Frasier genuinely values honesty and integrity and works as hard as he can to reach the high ideals he sets for himself, but because he is neither an angel nor a robot he slips from time to time. That's all it is. |
| 412 | ** Also, we must acknowledge that there is a pretty big difference between fudging the truth when telling a woman you're attracted to precisely how much you love animals and telling lies when you're delivering sworn testimony under oath for a legal proceeding. The former is not exactly ethical, but it's a little white lie that -- pre-farcical misunderstanding -- is presumably not going to cause any trouble. The latter is potentially a serious criminal offence. It should not be a huge mystery why Frasier might shrug at the former and blanch at the latter. |
| 413 | [[/folder]] |
| 414 | |
| 415 | [[folder: Lorna/Lana]] |
| 416 | * Why did they change Lorna's name to "Lana"? To me that's just the most pointless thing. |
| 417 | ** I've recently discovered that they changed her name from "Lorna Lynley" to "Lana Gardner" to avoid confusion with Laura Linney, who coincidentally would play Charlotte in season 11. |
| 418 | [[/folder]] |
| 419 | |
| 420 | [[folder: Frasier's opposition to Niles/Daphne]] |
| 421 | * I get why Frasier wouldn't want Niles to have an affair with Daphne while he was married to Maris, obviously. But the thing that always confused and annoyed this troper was that even in situations where both Niles and Daphne were perfectly single, Frasier still remained absolutely HELLBENT on preventing Niles from making a move on her. Okay, I get that he wouldn't want to see his little bro get his heart broken, but does he really think it's better for Niles to live his life pining for his dream girl and never knowing what could have been? For a man who was supposed to be a damn good psychiatrist (who even made a speech in the series finale about regretting the chances we never took!!), Frasier's categorical opposition to something that could make Niles happy was both off-the-mark and terribly cruel. |
| 422 | ** From what I remember, most of it is because (a) Niles has a tendency to act a bit inappropriately around Daphne, which Frasier disapproves of, and (b) as far as Frasier can tell, Daphne has no feelings for Niles at all. Most of the time, it's played as Frasier being concerned about Niles making a fool of himself and getting hurt over what, from the outside, looks like little more than a fairly insubstantial infatuation. Frasier simply seems to believe that it would much healthier for Niles to simply move on from rather than risking getting himself hurt over something that, as far as Frasier can see, is never going to happen. It should also be noted that once Frasier is convinced both that Niles's feelings for Daphne are deep, sincere and reciprocated, he becomes one of the couple's biggest champions, so to accuse him of cruelty seems rather unfair; at the very least, any cruelty is unintentional or well-meant in the "you've got to be cruel to be kind" vein. |
| 423 | ** Much of his opposition also comes from Niles trying to start something with Daphne before he has gotten over being dumped by Maris or because he doesn't want him approaching Daphne while she's on the rebound from her latest boyfriend. He doesn't want either of them hurt from a failed attempt. Plus a failed attempt would prevent a happy relationship from starting in the future when they were both ready for it. |
| 424 | [[/folder]] |
| 425 | |
| 426 | [[folder: At the end of the day, what exactly does Daphne do?]] |
| 427 | * Of course in the series, she is explained as a physical therapist who took on housekeeping duties for the Cranes. Her and Martin do "exercises," which take at the most about an hour a day. And then...um...what else? Cooking, laundry, and cleaning don't exactly consume the lion's share of a day, no matter how much of it you have to do. For all intents and purposes, it seems as though Daphne is getting paid to be a housewife in a gorgeous high-rise condo. Can I get a job like this...tomorrow? |
| 428 | ** I think plenty of homemakers, housewives, housekeepers and other such domestic workers might dispute the suggestion that cooking, laundry, cleaning and other domestic duties "don't exactly consume the lion's share of a day, no matter how much of it you have to do", but even if we accept that, it is frequently suggested that Daphne might be getting overpaid -- certainly, Frasier frequently has some snarky comments to make about how much he's paying her versus how much she actually seems to do. |
| 429 | * [[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-PH103w2qg The pilot]] shows the Cranes interviewing for a "home health care worker." Niles' exact suggestion is for Frasier to hire someone who "cooks, cleans, and can help Dad with his physiotherapy." Frasier replies "These angels exist?" Daphne's credentials are never outlined, although to be a licensed physiotherapist, you require a graduate degree, whereas a "home health care worker" WOULD take care of a patient's personal needs such as cooking, shopping, and laundry. Daphne is shown performing the tasks a physiotherapist would (the exercises and massages) and also what a "home health care worker" (or personal support worker/PSW) would. So it seems to be both, DependingOnTheWriter. |
| 430 | ** The simple answer is to split the difference; she's employed to do both. She's qualified and employed as a physiotherapist, but part of her contract with the Cranes includes also acting as a "home health care worker" on top of that. |
| 431 | * Daphne is probably a Physical Therapist Assistant. As pointed out above, a graduate-educated Physical Therapist would be both overqualified and too expensive for a single-patient live-in position. A Physical Therapist Assistant only requires an associates degree and is trained to assist with stretching, light exercises and massage, which basically covers everything Daphne is actually seen doing on screen. A full-time live-in position that doubles as a Home Healthcare Worker (cooking, cleaning, chores, etc.) would be reasonable for a high-risk client requiring extensive assistance, such as an elderly ex-cop with a gunshot wound to the hip. |
| 432 | [[/folder]] |
| 433 | |
| 434 | [[folder: Cutting off ties]] |
| 435 | * In one of the very early episodes, Martin takes them to the Timber Mill, a very down to earth restaurant which Martin enjoys and is at odds with the sort of thing that Frasier and Niles are used to. Upon entering, the staff cut off Frasier and Niles ties using scissors while claiming that there is a dress code. Frasier and Niles are (understandably) horrified, and Martin tells them that they do that sort of thing all the time and there's a big laugh from everyone (including Martin) except for Frasier and Niles. Niles replies that Martin should have warned them beforehand. I think the intent of the writers is for humor to stem from the fact that Frasier and Niles are horrified and caught off guard by such an act, and that they are being humbled (for lack of a better word). However my issues are 1) Frasier and Niles are right to be horrified at having their (possibly very expensive, or more importantly, rare) clothing destroyed without their consent, and yet this issue is never addressed and they are not portrayed as being victims at any point. And 2) How the hell can a restaurant actually get away with this? Presumably some nice well dressed men (who are not snobs, as despite what the show implies, not all of them are) have wandered in before looking for some simple food without bringing anyone who has visited before with them, and had their (again possibly expensive) ties destroyed. Destruction of property would have this restaurant sued to hell after a few months. |
| 436 | ** Basically, like many headscratchers in sitcoms, it's RuleOfFunny. In the real world, that restaurant would almost certainly have seen plenty of tirades from angry customers who go on to receive free meals and waitresses getting their paychecks docked or even fired for damaging customer's property, but since on the show the restaurant exists to provide humour on a sitcom, we probably shouldn't expect strict fidelity to real life. Just as Frasier and Niles are basically at the far end of the "snobby and vein" axis, the restaurant (and Martin, let's be fair) exist on the other extreme. It's a set-up for a joke, you either accept it or you don't. That said, while Frasier and Niles are arguably right to be upset (although there is the "lighten up, it's just a tie" argument also), let's be honest -- few people probably value their ties as much as Frasier and Niles do, and those who value them so much that they're going to sue in the event of any damage would, let's face it, probably also be the type of person who wouldn't be seen dead in the Timber Mill whether they were hungry or not, (not just for reasons of snobbery, but simply because it doesn't exactly seem to be the type of place you'd dress up to go, and if you valued your appearance that much you might as well go somewhere where it's going to be appreciated). |
| 437 | *** It's actually based on a few places that actually do that. I had heard about it even before that episode. For example http://www.pinnaclepeaksteakhouse.com/No_Ties_Allowed.html |
| 438 | *** The above website does at least state that they give tie-wearing customers clear warning before they cut off the offending clothing, which is a luxury that Frasier and Niles never had. I don't know, if my very first experience of a restaurant was having an item of my clothing destroyed AND the staff making a scene of it for the amusement of other diners, I might be a little soured on the place in general too. On top of everything else, the Timber Mill has no way of knowing if that tie has any sentimental value to the wearer. |
| 439 | ** Martin's a regular. The place might have a reputation for doing this as long as a regular was there along with "marks", so Martin being there and letting his sons enter with ties was basically giving the place tacit approval that his snobbish sons were fair game. |
| 440 | *** On the other hand, Martin has no authority whatsoever to authorise anyone to destroy something which doesn't belong to him, tacitly or otherwise. |
| 441 | ** Also, they cut the ties off. With scissors. What about the potential for injury? Stabbing your customers in the chest will not get you good TripAdvisor reviews. |
| 442 | *** They're not serial killers or three-year-olds. While the chance of a scissor-related mishap under such circumstances may indeed be greater than zero, we can perhaps give the waitresses ''some'' credit for being sufficiently trained and careful in the use of scissors to avoid killing and maiming their customers by lunging wildly at them. |
| 443 | ** Let's face it; under most circumstances, anyone who routinely frequents the kind of restaurant where a tie is a requirement is almost certainly not going to the Timber Mill to begin with. So most of the issues probably never come up outside of a blue moon. |
| 444 | [[/folder]] |
| 445 | |
| 446 | [[folder: The family in "Detour"]] |
| 447 | * In the Season 11 episode "Detour", I can't help but get the feeling that we're supposed to figure out what the story is behind the extremely...weird family Frasier and Charlotte stumble upon. So...what ''are'' we to make of them? What's the title card about the "nice boy who kept to himself", etc., supposed to signify about the son? |
| 448 | ** They're supposed to be a riff on the "hillbilly serial killer cannibal weird family" common to horror movies about travelers. RuleOfFunny. |
| 449 | ** As for the title card, a common BlackComedy joke is that whenever the identity of a serial killer or presidential assassin is revealed, there inevitably seems to be a stunned neighbour or acquaintance appearing on the news to comment on how particularly shocking the crime is because the murderer "seemed like such a nice, quiet person who kept to himself" or something along those lines. It's just riffing on how Frasier and Charlotte seem to have had the misfortune to stumble upon an entire family of people who convey an intense "serial killer" vibe. |
| 450 | [[/folder]] |
| 451 | |
| 452 | [[folder: Martin's Brother]] |
| 453 | * In the Season 1 episode, "Author, Author" Martin tells Frasier and Niles that he never had a brother. It's later revealed that he does in fact have a (half-estranged) brother. Why did he lie about that? Wouldn't Frasier and Niles know they have an uncle? |
| 454 | ** If we're looking for an in-universe explanation, perhaps Martin -- given the estrangement -- simply chooses to act like he never had a brother because he finds it easier to cope, and Frasier and Niles simply indulge him in this rather than pouring salt on old wounds. |
| 455 | ** Plus when he does reunite with his brother we're shown that given the opportunity they basically just exist in proximity to each other. Martin's basically only mildly annoyed at Frasier's actions estranging him from his brother, seems mildly happy to be reunited, and mildly saddened to once more be estranged at the end of the episode. Perhaps Martin was using shorthand for "I never had a brother that was actually an important and integral part of my life like you two are for each other". |
| 456 | [[/folder]] |
| 457 | |
| 458 | [[folder: Frasier not knowing facts about Dante'sInferno]] |
| 459 | * In the final episode of the series, Frasier remarks that the blazing hot weather is like "the ninth circle of Hell." The ninth circle of Hell is where traitors reside, according to the famous poem by Dante Alighieri, (The Divine Comedy) and is characteristically freezing cold due to the flapping of Satan's wings. However, in the season 8 episode "The Great Crane Robbery", Frasier tells young entrepreneur Todd that he will play Virgil to his Dante. So Frasier is clearly familiar with the poem. Why would he make such a simple blunder? |
| 460 | ** Frasier's ability to use Dante and Virgil as an analogy doesn't imply any deep knowledge of the poem. They're the two main characters, and anyone who knows about the Dante poem (rather than just the concept of circles of Hell) would likely know that. It's likely that either Frasier has heard of the poem but never read it to know the details, has forgotten that detail, or is simplifying for the audience who wouldn't know the difference. |
| 461 | ** The Doylist position is because while most of the watching audience is vaguely familiar with Dante's ''Inferno'', they're probably not familiar with it to that degree, so the writers either goofed themselves or decided it wasn't worth worrying too much about. In-universe, because it's just a thing people say when it's really hot to communicate how really hot they think it is. It's not strictly accurate to the book, and Frasier knows it, but at that point he's probably so hot he doesn't really care that it's not accurate, since he's just talking about the heat and isn't in his book club or anything. Plus, Frasier himself might have simply misspoken (again, due to being distracted by the heat) or forgotten that detail; he's not perfect. |
| 462 | ** He's just playing on the old phrase "hotter than hell" by throwing in a Dante reference as a quip about the heat, he's not delivering a lecture at a literary symposium. We can surely forgive or overlook him being a bit imprecise in his language under such circumstances. |
| 463 | [[/folder]] |
| 464 | |
| 465 | [[folder: What happened to Bulldog?]] |
| 466 | Has it ever been said why Bulldog wasn't included in the series finale? Did the writers just forget about him? Was Dan Butler unavailable? |
| 467 | * He appears in an episode earlier in Season 11 ("Frasier-Lite"), so I assume it wasn't a behind-the-scenes issue; I imagine the actor simply wasn't available for a cameo appearance and[=/=]or the writers couldn't figure out a way to naturally include him in a more substantial role. |
| 468 | * He was indeed unavailable; he was on the road with a one-man show. |
| 469 | [[/folder]] |
| 470 | |
| 471 | [[folder: The Seabee Awards]] |
| 472 | * Even if we assume that Seattle really loves radio, the size and scope of the Seabees is a bit much for a local awards show. In addition to all the competitive categories (one year KACL receives 9 nominations), they also have a lifetime achievement award (won by Frasier), a man of the year award (won by Bulldog), and a whole set of technical awards (which Niles was nominated for). And then in one episode Roz refers to them as "the biggest award in Seattle radio", suggesting that there might be other, smaller awards as well. |
| 473 | ** I think you're severely overestimating the "size and scope" of the Seabees. It's repeatedly shown to be able to be hosted in a single ballroom (and sometimes not a very large one). It's not like it costs them a ton to have a bunch of categories to give out nominations in, especially if only some of them come with awards statues. And recall that the technical awards aren't even hosted there, they're in the basement. Also maybe there's a couple of little awards shows about specific radio stuff, but the Seabees is the only one that judges the entire radio scene. Not every awards show is a gigantic pointless money pit that costs millions upon millions like the Oscars, the total cost of the Seabees is likely just the room rental, the awards statues, and the cost of catering / an open bar for the evening. |
| 474 | ** Also, remember that "local awards show" is a relative term; Seattle is a pretty large metropolitan area. |
| 475 | [[/folder]] |
| 476 | |
| 477 | [[folder: Smoke alarm.]] |
| 478 | * In "Three Valentines", why didn't the smoke alarm go off the instant Niles' pants started to burn? I know, RuleOfFunny, but I wondered if there was another explanation. |
| 479 | ** If the smoke detector was sufficiently far enough from the location where Niles was ironing, the smoke from the fire might not have reached it yet. |
| 480 | [[/folder]] |
| 481 | |
| 482 | [[folder: Frasier's Fame]] |
| 483 | * It seems like everywhere he goes, someone recognizes "Dr. Crane, from the radio!" But, honestly, how popular is one local talk-radio show ever going to be? And how recognizable is a radio host? I've been listening to the same three or four radio hosts for basically my entire life, all very successful and very long-running, obviously, and I wouldn't recognize any of them if I met them on the street. |
| 484 | ** It's been years since I last watched the series, so correct me if I remember this wrong, but doesn't KACL put out ad posters for the show with Frasier's mug on them? Which would explain why people recognize him. |
| 485 | ** Bus and bench ads are shown with his picture, billboards are referenced, and Bebe's stated she wants his image on everything from coffee mugs to Frisbees. Probably hyperbole at that point, but his image seems to be circulated pretty consistently. |
| 486 | ** He is also a "local" radio host where "local" = "a large major city". Seattle isn't exactly Bumfuck, Middle-of-Nowhere; Frasier is broadcasting to the 14th largest urban area in the United States, with a combined population of about four million. And that's before any other areas that his program might reach or be syndicated to. Even if we assume that only a tiny percentage of that population actually hears the show and sees an advert with his face on it, that's still a lot of people who are able to recognise him. |
| 487 | ** It annoys me that some people don't recognize his name at first, but then know who he is once he mentions that he has a radio show. If you know about the show, then how the hell do you not recognize the name "Frasier Crane" when you hear it? It isn't like "John Smith"...it is an extremely unusual and distinct name that you would remember. |
| 488 | ** Some of them might just be being polite. Some of them might mentally recognise the name but not be quite able to place it until he brings up his show (in a kind of "Oh, ''that's'' where I've heard his name!" sense), but are again just being polite and not saying that out loud. And to be entirely fair, while "Frasier Crane" is admittedly distinct in a kind of [=WASPy=] sense, it's not "lodge itself in your brain and never forget it ever" unique in a way that, say, "Benedict Cumberbatch" is. It's not really stretching credibility too much that other people, with their own lives and concerns, might not commit it to instant-recall memory. |
| 489 | [[/folder]] |
| 490 | |
| 491 | [[folder: Accents]] |
| 492 | * Daphne and family are meant to be from Manchester right? No one I mean NO ONE speaks with anything remotely close to a Mancunian accent, In fact there's no accent outside of the southeast of england from any English character in the show. To put this into perspective for American viewers its effectively like watching someone with a new England Accent playing someone from Texas or Alaska its possibly even worse. |
| 493 | ** I've always assumed this was deliberate. The producers of 'Frasier' aren't idiots and they've taken a lot of time and care to hone the show with plenty of attention to detail so it would be difficult to make the case that they didn't know or care. Plus they have John Mahoney, a born and bred Lancastrian, to point out any linguistic errors to them. Casting a mixed bag of Brits (none of whom are from anywhere near Manchester) and an Aussie to play Daphne's family seems more like an elaborate gag about the way other nationalities are represented on American TV rather than laziness or ignorance. |
| 494 | ** And a ''real'' Manchester accent - especially from the Lancashire side of the city - would have required subtitles for American audiences. A bit like the way Creator/JamesDoohan, auditioning for ''Series/StarTrekTheOriginalSeries'' first gave Rodenberry an impeccable Glasgow accent. Then broad Aberdeen. And even relatively genteel Edinburgh got the thumbs-down. In the end that not-quite-right vaguely Scottish was a compromise between reality and what American viewers could understand. I'm betting it was the same with Daphne's "Manchester". [[note]]The actress is from somewhere Home Counties-ish south of London. There's nothing that sounds as false as a Southern English person trying to "do" OopNorth accents![[/note]] |
| 495 | [[/folder]] |
| 496 | |
| 497 | [[folder: Frasier's reputation]] |
| 498 | * Isn't it a bit odd that Frasier's reputation in Seattle isn't the slightest bit sullied after 11 years of disastrous dates and social faux pas? I could understand him slipping through the cracks if he was just a random psychiatrist, but he is a quasi-celebrity. Given the sheer amount of women he screwed over in the course of the series, wouldn't he have gained a certain notoriety in Seattle as a tomcat and a commitment-phobe? While I understand social media didn't exist in the 90s and early 2000s, it still seems far-fetched that a well-known radio personality could fuck and chuck all these women without one bit of backlash. |
| 499 | ** Same way any quasi-celebrity manages to attract a load of attention from their gender of choice despite possible personality issues -- he's a handsome, wealthy and successful quasi-celebrity. Although in absolute fairness to Frasier, "fuck and chuck" is more than a little unfair to him. He has his issues with relationships and he has rather more than someone who wasn't on TV and didn't have writers and casting agents giving him a GirlOfTheWeek would. But whenever he's in one he's often shown to be chivalrous and gentlemanly in his conduct, often is sincere in trying to tries to make things work, generally treats his partners well and on the whole comes off like a pretty nice guy (at least until some farcical misunderstanding completely blows things up for him). Yeah, he gets into standard sitcom territory like trying to date two girls at once, but even those instances are rare. He actually comes off like a bit of a catch (again, pre-farcical misunderstanding). |
| 500 | [[/folder]] |
| 501 | |
| 502 | [[folder: "Out With Dad" Episode]] |
| 503 | * Obviously the episode was meant to be a spoof of an operatic farce, but the RuleOfFunny only goes so far here until it turns ridiculous. First off, why did Martin owe Emily's mother any kind of explanation for why he wasn't interested in going out with her? She asked him out within MINUTES of meeting him, while knowing absolutely nothing about his life or tastes. That being said, if Martin really did want to give her an excuse, why couldn't he just tell her that he recently went through a rocky breakup and he isn't ready to start dating again? Moving on to the second act, what the hell was Frasier's endgame here? If he wanted a relationship with Emily, how exactly did he intend to reconcile this with Martin pretending to be gay and Niles pretending to be his lover? If they eventually fell in love and got married, the family would either have to continue the farce for the rest of their lives, or Frasier would have to have a VERY awkward conversation with Emily at some point. For a man who spent the whole series as a stickler for ethics and honesty in relationships, he's certainly willing to lie through his teeth to sleep with Emily. |
| 504 | ** The first couple of questions can be quickly explained by Martin simply wanting to let Emily's mother down gently without the possibility of her feeling insulted by him not being attracted to her; he comes up with "I'm gay" because he thinks it's a bit nicer for her to hear than "You're not my type", and he's not anticipating a farce to result from it. It's simple GenreBlindness on his part. As for why he didn't go with the "rocky breakup" excuse, possibly it didn't occur to him until later; ever given a weak excuse for something in the spur of the moment because you were put on the spot and couldn't think of anything better until later? (I'll answer that for you; yes, you have, because everyone has at at least one point.) It was just that. It could also arguably be a bit of latent homophobia or stereotyping; Martin's a bit of a man's man who assumes opera is a "girly" thing, and so decides that claiming to be a gay man going to the opera would make sense.\ |
| 505 | \ |
| 506 | As for Frasier's endgame, he just wants to clear this mess up and get some alone time with Emily. It's also not like he's the one claiming that Martin's gay and Niles is his lover, so he can't realistically or fairly be blamed by her or us for rolling with the punches that other people throw. In any case, seriously? Let's be real here, it's seriously ''waaaaaaaaaaay'' too early in the relationship for Frasier to be even considering marriage and kids with this woman yet. They've literally just met and haven't even had a proper date. Presumably Frasier reasons that if the relationship's meant to last she'll eventually laugh it off as a bunch of farcical misunderstandings, and if it isn't and she doesn't then ''que sera sera''. And while we're on the subject, there's plenty of evidence throughout the series that Frasier is not quite the "stickler" for ethics and honesty that he likes to think himself as being. |
| 507 | ** Martin wasn't the one to "come up with" the excuse that he was gay anyway. Emily's mom was the one who said it while Martin was struggling to think of an answer that wouldn't hurt her feelings (as per Frasier's request). He just decided to play along because, as the first responder pointed out, nothing else was occurring to him. |
| 508 | ** Thank you! Obviously there was some misremembering going on on my part. In this case, there was obviously just an element of SureLetsGoWithThat going on; Martin took the easy solution rather than risk insulting her. |
| 509 | [[/folder]] |
| 510 | |
| 511 | [[folder: Frasier and Cheers]] |
| 512 | * How come Frasier didn't stay in touch with his Cheers friends? He obviously went to Boston frequently for Frederick and for conferences like in Season 9. Doesn't make sense why he wouldn't pop in to visit the gang every chance he got. |
| 513 | ** Who says he didn't? We don't see what he does when he's in Boston, maybe he swings by Cheers for a quick pint if he has a chance. And if he doesn't... well, maybe he doesn't have that many chances? If he's only in town for a week and has things arranged all that week, then there's not much anyone can do about it. Sadly, things and people move on and he's got his own life to lead now. It's just one of those things that happens. |
| 514 | ** Also, remember the episode where Woody shows up and he and Frasier begin hanging out... and end up finding each other insufferable and hard to relate to after a short period of time. Sometimes it's best not to go back to a place you've left behind you. He's moved on with his life, they've moved on with theirs. |
| 515 | ** In the episode "Three Dates and a Breakup", Norm calls Frasier and Frasier tells him about his dates for the weekend, implying that the two still keep in touch. |
| 516 | *** I think it's the opposite, actually. Immediately prior to that call, Frasier had just got done telling Roz that she shouldn't obsess over a gossipy friend of hers going back and telling everyone in her hometown that she's become a slob because she doesn't talk to these people, they aren't a part of her life anymore, and thus she shouldn't care what they think of her. [[HypocriticalHumor Then he calls up Norm Peterson just so he can brag about having three dates]] (or he contacts Norm and Norm calls him back, I can't remember who called whom.) The joke only works if you assume that Frasier doesn't normally keep in touch with the people at Cheers. It's not that hard to believe; a lot of them did tend to give him a hard time during Cheers' run, and Frasier changed ''a lot'' from hanging out with the elites in Seattle. |
| 517 | ** Before social media became a thing, it wasn't uncommon for people to lose touch with friends after relocating (especially to the other side of the country). As the above poster stated, people have a tendency to move on with their lives and assimilate to their current environments. Think about it...before texting and Facebook were invented, you had to physically call people on the people on the phone and have a conversation. Sadly, it's just not worth the effort for a lot of people. |
| 518 | ** Most likely, When Frasier went back to visit his son, he spend all his time with his son. He doesn't get to see him that often so of course he would spend all his time with him when he was in town. In fact, he might not even have thought about Cheers because his schedule was so full spending time with his child. |
| 519 | [[/folder]] |
| 520 | |
| 521 | [[folder: Legal Tender Love and Care]] |
| 522 | * Fraser is outraged by the size of the legal bill he receives, but why is he the one paying the bill? It's all part of the colossal Niles-Daphne screw-up, so shouldn't they pay Frasier's fees? |
| 523 | ** Donny's only suing Frasier because of Frasier's own role in advising Daphne and Niles. While Daphne and Niles's actions did cause all the bad feeling, the argument is that Frasier was an active participant in events and thus has his own share of the blame (which, let's face it, is not entirely unfair given he spent most of the previous two episodes advising them to admit their feelings to each other). He can't really blame Niles and Daphne for acting on advice which he himself gave them. And even if he could, presumably Frasier would rather take his lumps rather than potentially cause bad feeling with Niles and Daphne by throwing around blame and demanding financial reimbursement during what is already a rather emotionally fraught period for all concerned. In any case, Daphne at least is being sued as well, and she makes way less than either Niles or Frasier, so she at least could get out of the hook by Frasier not wanting to look like a complete asshat by demanding money from her under such circumstances. |
| 524 | [[/folder]] |
| 525 | |
| 526 | [[folder: Martin and Roz's mom]] |
| 527 | * Why was it such a big deal that she and Martin didn't hit it off? She lived in Wisconsin and was only in town for a couple days anyway. Roz was acting like they were going to get married and Frasier was petrified of simply telling Roz that Martin wasn't interested. Why does any of it matter if Joanna is going back to the other side of the country in a couple days? I get that the point of the episode was for Roz's mother to make an appearance, but was this storyline the best they could come up with? |
| 528 | ** Well, it's a big deal to Roz because she doesn't want her mother's feelings to be hurt by being rejected by a guy she's clearly interested in (especially since IIRC Roz's mother is recently divorced at the time), and it's a big deal to Frasier because he doesn't want his friendship with Roz to be damaged as a result of fallout from Martin rejecting Roz's mother. Plus, it's also implied that Roz and Frasier are taking the situation more seriously than necessary because they're both unsatisfied by their own love lives; after being rejected Roz's mother, while not exactly happy about it, does seem to take it a bit better than Roz was expecting her to. |
| 529 | [[/folder]] |
| 530 | |
| 531 | [[folder: Gambler's Fallacy]] |
| 532 | * Niles states in "Rooms With a View" that since he drew the lucky water bottle, it made it more unlikely that his toothache was referred pain. In other words, experiencing one improbable event makes another improbable event even less likely. The Gambler's Fallacy teaches us that this line of thought is not sound, as independent events do not predict each other (for example, a flipped coin coming up heads 10 times in a row doesn't make tails any more likely on the next flip). This may be more forgivable with a more conventional sitcom character, but it's implausible that a Yale/Cambridge educated psychiatrist would subscribe to this line of thinking. |
| 533 | ** Having an Ivy League education and being a medical professional does not bestow complete immunity from having irrational, illogical or incorrect beliefs upon someone (especially if that someone is rather neurotic to begin with like Niles is, and doubly so if that person is in the middle of a possible health scare and a bit panicky like Niles is). As an illustration, at time of writing the current US Secretary of Housing is a Yale-educated paediatric neurosurgeon... who has publicly expressed the belief that the Pyramids of Egypt were built by Joseph of the Old Testament to store grain, and that the Big Bang theory is a "fairy tale" (and that's without going into some of his more out-there religious beliefs). Compared to some of the things Ben Carson has expressed a belief in, Niles succumbing to the Gambler's Fallacy is perfectly understandable. |
| 534 | ** Also, it's a key fundamental principle of the series that neither Frasier nor Niles are quite as intelligent and rational that they like to believe themselves to be. |
| 535 | ** Furthermore, the whole point of this episode is that Niles is focussing on percentages because he's worrying about his health. No matter how logical they usually are, people can get quite irrational when it comes to personal issues such as that, and can latch on to anything which diminishes the possibility that they might have a serious medical condition. It's not really fair to criticise him for latching onto irrational fallacies in this case, as the underlying motives behind it are those that any of us might fall victim to when it relates to the possibility that we're facing our mortality. |
| 536 | [[/folder]] |
| 537 | |
| 538 | [[folder: Squash]] |
| 539 | * So does the game of squash not require any athletic ability? I am not familiar with the game, but when you consider Frasier and Niles can't even flip a coin or execute a high five, it seems highly unlikely that they would be able to play a sport that required even the slightest level of coordination. |
| 540 | ** No one ever said they were particularly ''good'' squash players. It's something they do casually for a bit of exercise and socialisation, they're not playing in a league or aiming to become professional squash players or anything. Besides which, their lack of physical coordination is exaggerated for RuleOfFunny. They're clumsy and lacking in ability and (usually) interest, they're not so hopelessly incompetent that they are entirely incapable of any kind of physical activity whatsoever. |
| 541 | ** Also, to be entirely fair to Niles, it's heavily implied in the series that his physical ineptitude is largely psychosomatic; throughout the series, he's shown prowess in [[{{Flynning}} fencing]], [[ImprobableAimingSkills marksmanship]], kickboxing, [[SexGod lovemaking]], and other areas that prove that [[YouAreBetterThanYouThinkYouAre he isn't nearly as weak or clumsy as he thinks he is.]] |
| 542 | ** The joke is that they are weak and physically uncoordinated at things that most ''regular'' people are good at. Squash was, at the time, a sport (stereo)typically played by the wealthy elite; it was a marker of success and affluence. Frasier and Niles value those things, so they would make a particular effort to play squash as doing so would reflect well on them with the people they want to impress (similarly with fencing, sport shooting and kickboxing, the latter of which was also somewhat faddish at the time IIRC). High fives, however, are typically a gesture of the ''hoi polloi'', so they'd look down on it. |
| 543 | ** Also, with regards to Niles' kickboxing proficiency at least, he's not ''that'' good at it. In the episode it comes up, he mentions he's earned his yellow belt; while kickboxing doesn't consistently have a belt-ranking system, in the karate system the yellow belt is the second belt level that can be earned. Assuming it's the same system being used at the school where Niles is learning, this basically suggests that Niles is one step up from a new beginner and has learned the basics, which is a personal accomplishment for him but in the broader sense means that he's still a complete novice -- which is reflected in that his attempts to show off for Daphne result in nothing but chaos. |
| 544 | [[/folder]] |
| 545 | |
| 546 | [[folder: Enemy at the Gate]] |
| 547 | * Why on earth is Frasier taking up his beef with the parking attendant? As an employee of the garage, he would have no authority to waive Frasier's fee. His till is probably audited, which would mean he could get in trouble for coming up short two dollars. It would have been far more sensible and convenient for Frasier to pay the money and then contact the company to air his grievance. They would almost certainly refund his money in this case, as no company on earth would risk bad publicity over $2. I understand there wouldn't be an episode if he took this course of action, but are we supposed to believe that an educated and supposedly reasonable individual such as Frasier would act so hardheaded in this relatively innocuous situation? The fact that he ended up destroying the gate, which probably resulted in hundreds of dollars worth of damage and a police citation, only adds insult to injury. |
| 548 | ** Because there wouldn't have been a story if he'd done the sensible thing, you just gotta go with it. Also, yes, you are supposed to believe it, because there's plenty of incidents throughout the series wherein Frasier has allowed his stubbornness and pomposity to turn into hard-headedness and self-defeat when he's got his dander up, even when he can't possibly benefit from it. Frasier making a $2 molehill into a mountain of unnecessary trouble is entirely in character for him. |
| 549 | ** Did you... actually watch the episode you're talking about? The episode in its entirety is quite literally about discussing, debating, and arguing over why Frasier is doing something so irrational. Answering your question is the entire reason the episode exists. Watching this episode and then asking "But why did Frasier act irrationally?" is like watching Winter Soldier and Civil War and then asking "But ''why'' did Captain America have a problem with the Sokovia Accords?" |
| 550 | ** Niles answers that question in the episode; |
| 551 | |
| 552 | Niles: Which you could explain in a letter! But no, you won't be satisfied until |
| 553 | everyone either agrees with you, or has suffered for failing to! |
| 554 | |
| 555 | [[/folder]] |
| 556 | |
| 557 | [[folder: Crimes committed by Frasier and Niles]] |
| 558 | * I know the obvious answer here is RuleOfFunny, but how did Frasier and Niles manage to retain their psychiatric licenses after two instances of breaking and entering and several acts of vandalism (Niles throwing the brick through the door of the art studio and stealing the street sign, and Frasier destroying the parking gate)? As Frasier is a local celebrity and Niles is one of Seattle's most prominent psychiatrists, wouldn't these police reports have received a fair amount of attention in the media? I don't know the letter of the law, but I would think criminal charges would result in a revocation of licenses. |
| 559 | ** A medical/psychiatric license is usually only revoked if the holder is found to have committed major felonies (think murder, rape, etc.) or unethical acts either directly related to their practice or which would otherwise impair their ability to practice; negligence, malpractice, stealing and/or abusing/selling drugs, sexual misconduct with patients, that kind of thing. Relatively minor crimes and misdemeanours like those committed by Frasier and Niles, which aren't related to their practice and likely wouldn't result in any jail time, are unlikely to result in a loss of license. Besides which, there likely wasn't any evidence to tie Niles nor Frasier to the smashing of the art gallery window at least in the first place. Put simply: people care whether their therapist is guilty of molesting patients, they don't give a shit if he broke someone's window one time. |
| 560 | [[/folder]] |
| 561 | |
| 562 | [[folder: Niles' outburst in Whine Club]] |
| 563 | * Once everybody (inadvertently) spills their true feelings about Mel at the end of the episode, Niles throws a hissy fit and angrily states that they could have come up with something nice to say about her. Is Niles forgetting that he never had a nice word for Lilith and that he made very little effort to conceal his disdain for Sherry? I understand Niles was infatuated with her at the time (or at least he convinced himself he was in an effort to move on from Daphne), but why is the rest of the cast obligated to protect Niles' feelings when he never made any effort to protect anybody else's? It wasn't as if anybody willfully volunteered their opinion, either...he kept pressing everybody until Daphne accidentally spilled the beans. |
| 564 | ** Because he's hurt and angry that his family and friends don't like ''another'' woman that he's romantically attached to and is lashing out. Sure, it's a bit hypocritical of him, but Niles is human, and humans aren't emotionless robo-Vulcans of pure logic capable of effortlessly detaching themselves from emotionally-difficult situations and reacting in a fashion that perfectly acknowledges their prior actions. It's a fairly typical emotional response to such a situation. |
| 565 | ** As for "why is the rest of the cast obligated to protect Niles' feelings", remember that Frasier has half a mind to vent his spleen about how insufferable Mel is and how Niles is making a mistake at one point, only for Martin to remind him of all these examples and that all that's happened whenever the Crane boys have revealed that they dislike one of the other's romantic interests is just a whole bunch of unnecessary bad feeling among them all. They're not "obligated" to treat Niles like a snowflake, they're just trying to keep the peace for once by swallowing down their dislike of his latest girlfriend. If anything, it's a sign of character development. No doubt if the roles had been reversed at that exact point and Niles had been spitting blood about a significant new love interest Frasier was seeing, Martin would have given Niles a similar talking-to. |
| 566 | [[/folder]] |
| 567 | |
| 568 | [[folder: What's in a name?]] |
| 569 | * Martin is disappointed that his sons ended up as snobbish, effete sophisticates. However, with PropheticNames like "Frasier" and "Niles," what else could they possibly have become? It's like naming your son "Thrungnir the Bold," then being surprised when he grows up to be a BarbarianHero. |
| 570 | ** He presumably let his wife name them (especially given she named them after her lab rats), along with most of their upbringing. If anything, it's surprising he doesn't see them more as [[SomeoneToRememberHimBy Someones To Remember Her By]]. |
| 571 | ** A first season episode has him [[TheReasonYouSuckSpeech point out]] that their mother was a [[WomenAreWiser much more down-to-earth person]] who was very welcoming and didn't sneer at "lower-class" tastes. Martin's disappointment comes from how they ''don't'' take after her more than how they do. |
| 572 | ---> "All right, that's it. I've had enough of you two jackasses. I've spent all night hearing you make cracks about the food and the help. I got news for you. People like this place. I like this place. And when you insult this restaurant, you insult me. You know, I used to think you two took after your mother, liking ballet and all that. But your mother liked a good ball game too. She even ate a hot dog once in a while. She might have had fancy taste, but she had too much class to make me or anyone else ever feel second rate. If she saw the way you two behaved tonight she would be ashamed. I know I am." |
| 573 | [[/folder]] |
| 574 | |
| 575 | [[folder: Martin, the anti-psychologist, marries... a psychologist]] |
| 576 | * The show often hints that Martin doesn't place a lot of stock in Psychology; a better question might be how or why he managed to marry a psychologist given his thoughts on the profession. |
| 577 | ** She was doing police forensics at the time. They fell in love over chalk outlines over murder victims. |
| 578 | ** It may be that he doesn't put much stock in ''Freudian'' (or Jungian, which Niles is) psychology, and just doesn't bother to verbally differentiate between that and the more research-based school of thought Hester followed. |
| 579 | ** Except that Hester would have been trained and educated in psychoanalytic thought, seeing as she probably trained in the fifties. |
| 580 | ** It's explicitly stated that she did experiments with lab rats, which is largely behavioral. |
| 581 | ** You don't have to share someone's vocational passions to fall in love with and marry them. |
| 582 | [[/folder]] |
| 583 | |
| 584 | [[folder: Frasier leaving his fans behind on Frasier day]] |
| 585 | * It was a nice gesture that Frasier stayed behind to talk to a cab driver, but couldn't he have said: I'll give you a call later? One could argue that even if Frasier had gotten over the vanity of throwing a day for himself, there were people who might be disappointed with him for failing to show up on his own day. |
| 586 | ** Basically, it's the psychiatric form of the Hippocratic Oath: "Into whatsoever houses I enter, I will enter to help the sick." People might be disappointed that he failed to show at an event in his honor, but disappointment isn't an illness and they'd get over it. The cab driver, on the other hand, was a man in need of psychological care and attention. Frasier chose to put his oath as a doctor to help the needy over his own personal need for ego validation. Brushing the cab driver off would have been putting his own needs over a patient's, and at the end of the day, for all his ego, Frasier is a good doctor who genuinely cares about helping people who need him. |
| 587 | [[/folder]] |
| 588 | |
| 589 | [[folder: The existence of sociopathy]] |
| 590 | * In "Bad Dog", the plot is driven by Frasier's refusal to believe that a person with no moral conscience whatsoever can possibly exist. With all his training and experience, shouldn't Frasier know what a sociopath is? |
| 591 | ** Some psychiatric doctors (at the time, anyway) believed that some of the more violent antisocial behaviors in psychopaths and sociopaths isn't a direct lack of morality so much as ''having'' an understanding of morally correct behavior and conscience, but not actually holding them as having any value to them personally. He's one of them. |
| 592 | ** Furthermore, sociopathy is not actually recognised by the American Psychiatric Association as an diagnosable condition (the behaviours which generally fall under the popular definition of "sociopathy" are generally identified as belonging to Antisocial Personality Disorder or psychopathy). As stated above, such individuals are generally regarded as possessing a lack of empathy or a general disinterest in norms and morals as pertaining to people other than themselves rather than a lack of conscience, so to speak; in other words, they often ''do'' possess some kind of conscience or morality, but it's heavily self-focussed. So while Frasier's likely aware of the popular idea of sociopathy, he doesn't subscribe to the idea himself. |
| 593 | [[/folder]] |
| 594 | |
| 595 | [[folder: Donny's lawsuit]] |
| 596 | * When Daphne leaves Donny on the day of their wedding for Niles, Donny responds by suing her for $100,000 in punitive damages for "emotional distress" and "breach of contract", and later adds Frasier to the lawsuit for "tortious interference and intentional and negligent infliction of emotional distress" when he learns of the part he played (telling Niles and Daphne about their feelings for each other the night before the wedding). Now normally I'd assume that any judge would throw these out as nothing more than a bitter ex trying to be vindictive but Donny is a very skilled and powerful lawyer, Martin suggested Frasier and Daphne do their best to settle before it got to court, and depositions were being prepared when Donny decided to drop the case. So I'm interested to know, did Donny have a solid case against the two? Was there any chance he might actually have won if he had gone ahead? |
| 597 | ** We'd never actually know without seeing the trial, of course, since lawsuits can be tricky things. I can't find any information on whether the state of Washington still has the kind of breach of promise laws that allow a jilted would-be marriage partner to sue the jilter (many states began repealing them in the twentieth century, but a few still have them on the books), but it does have laws on the books regarding "breach of contract" and "negligent infliction of emotional distress", so it's not wholly groundless. Daphne did technically enter into a verbal contract to marry Donny when she said "I will,", but verbal contracts like that tend to be hard to successfully argue in court. While our trio did inflict emotional distress on Donny, there's likely some legal debate that can be had over the 'negligent' part. Furthermore, such laws appear to be more applicable as a result of trauma connected to or as a side-effect of some kind of serious physical assault or accident rather than a non-violent emotional trauma such as being dumped at the altar. So while it's not utterly baseless, Donny would appear to have a bit of an uphill climb to prove that he has been sufficiently emotionally traumatised by what they did for it to require a formal legal penalty to be imposed , and unless he can prove he's so traumatised that he, say, is unable to work, a penalty of $100,000 or more is almost certainly unlikely. He'd likely just get back any costs he contributed towards the wedding and payment of his legal fees.\ |
| 598 | The real problem for the trio, arguably, is that while Donny is unlikely to win, or at least win big, he ''can'' make a lawsuit ruinously expensive for our heroes; he doesn't need to pay high prices for legal representation, after all, and they do. His real goal is almost certainly not the damages themselves, but the vengeful satisfaction of financially crippling them through the legal system. |
| 599 | [[/folder]] |
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