| 1 | '''''WARNING: Unmarked Spoilers Below!''''' |
| 2 | |
| 3 | [[foldercontrol]] |
| 4 | ---- |
| 5 | |
| 6 | [[folder:Deathseeker "battle mechanics"]] |
| 7 | * If Orphan is actually a DeathSeeker, why does it bother to defend itself when being attacked by Lightning's party? |
| 8 | *** That's the ''entire point''. The entire party didn't want to kill Orphan, and if he left them well enough alone, they wouldn't. So he attacks them to get them to fight, but they're not killing him fast enough, so he puts a literal timer on their heads. If that ''still'' doesn't get him dead fast enough, he just uses the most likely person to turn into Ragnarok and gets them to turn into Ragnarok to end his life quicker. His focus (which it's implied Fal'Cie have, but works different from L'Cie focus) forces him to defend himself. |
| 9 | *** Continued in the forums, where paragraphs can be made. |
| 10 | *** It's a lot simpler then all of that though. The reason that Orphan fights back is the same reason Barthandelus has to get a Pulse Fal'cie to brand the main party: the Fal'cie are essentially robots and as part of their programming to care for Cocoon, they cannot take any actions against the its well-being or the well-being of its citizens. As Orphan is essential for the continued existance of Cocoon, it is in his programming that [[ICannotSelfTerminate he cannot allow himself to die]] and also MUST defend himself against any attacker. This is why Barthandelus spends the duration of the game essentially sending the party on one long grinding mission: He is ensuring that when they face Orphan, they have the power to defeat the Fal'cie who MUST defend himself. Whether the intention is they must survive long enough in combat to unleash Ragnarok or that they must be strong enough to kill Orphan without Ragnarok if they fail to unleash it is still unclear, but why Orphan actually defends himself against the party is clearly because he has no choice. |
| 11 | [[/folder]] |
| 12 | |
| 13 | |
| 14 | [[folder: Kamikaze conspiracy]] |
| 15 | * So ''every single fal'Cie'' was in on the plan to have the l'Cie kill Orphan, thus killing themselves in the process but also reviving the Maker? So was Barthandelus the only one who had any sort of will of his own? We are told that fal'Cie are hardwired into Cocoon and can't do anything except for what they're made for... so Barthandelus was hardwired to destroy Cocoon? In fact, there's a few problems with this, "We're only hardwired to do one thing and we can't do anything to hurt Orphan or Cocoon" thing: clearly there's no problem in using a non-l'Cie substitute in order to cause damage to Cocoon, such as ordering PSICOM soldiers to carry out a mass execution or setting a whole ton of Pulse monsters on the populace. If you really wanted to kill everyone on Cocoon at once, couldn't you get someone to rig up a massive bomb or something? It would be easier to accomplish than smuggling in a Pulse fal'Cie, exposing people to it so that they become l'Cie with a Focus of becoming Ragnarok, and then engineering a huge chain of events so that ''eventually'' they gain enough power to kill something that will cause the planet to drop. |
| 16 | ** No kidding. Bart claims he can't destroy Cocoon, and neither can any other fal'Cie, but he unleashes all the monsters from the Arc, and there is no way that PSICOM or the Guardian Corps were going to stop all of them. Why didn't he just do that in the first place, call it a Pulse invasion, and watch the bloodbath in the streets? Or declare that Orphan was a newly discovered Pulse fal'Cie and let any old human kill it? Why the ridiculous roundabout plan? Or, for that matter, since he obviously ''could'' act to destroy Cocoon, why not just "unplug" Eden from Orphan? The whole damn plot makes absolutely no sense. It's a good thing the character development and interaction is so good, because that's all that saves the writing. |
| 17 | ** Bart has no free will of his own (he is simply mouthy, but still fulfilling his god-given task of overseeing the Cocoon citizens,) and releasing monsters from the Ark was pretty much just a Plan B/"slow way" to KillAllHumans. The datalog itself says that Bart never intended for the party to reach Orphan, and he assumed that they were just going to go crazy and kill people alongside the monsters in despair and rage. |
| 18 | ** I'm pretty sure the datalog said that Bart never intended ''the Cavalry'' to reach Orphan. The whole "appointing Raines as Primarch" drew the Cavalry into the Edenhall. Bart played it up like the Cavalry was his plan B for killing Orphan if the L'Cie were just going to drag their asses around for too long. [[NiceJobBreakingItHero The party]] wants to save Orphan, [[TheCallKnowsWhereYouLive stop the Cavalry from falling headfirst into Bart's trap]], and stop Barthandelus for good. His ''entire'' plan rests on the shoulders of the party killing Orphan. |
| 19 | ** Is it every single fal'Cie, or just the Sanctum fal'Cie? |
| 20 | ** Whoa. I'll need to double check in game but there were some logical combinations putting all this into play. Iirc, Orphan was some type of anomalous fal'Cie, and my next trick is some supreme WMG because I haven't checked anything for a WHILE. Fal'Cie were aware of the nature of humans, that they are often rash and, worse, at times, helpless, and therefore prone to acting on fear and confusion in extreme cases. Not allowing harm to come to cocoon, even via humans, which they would have to harm if they were destroying cocoon and vice versa, sort of culminated into Orphan's unchanging fal'Cie persona, and manifested itself in the form of bestowing more savage focuses or whatever. A color for every season as it were. Barthandelous was in a similar bind, but in my opinion, very very human-like, a more closely human-like fal'Cie as a sort of nod to them by the fal'Cie temselves. He would be at odds with Orphan's quite "liberal" views and would defend them from Orphan even to the point of harm, seemingly, since it was a probable end result anyway. Again, the rub is having two variable factors to conform to a single standard and barring damage at any cost (like if was death, not also physical battery we could just forget this [[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Headscratchers/HomePage?from=Headscratchers.Headscratchers scratcher]], coupled with a sort of folly of all fal'Cie being individual and unique AND capable of bestowing oh so honorable fates. Focuses, ftw. |
| 21 | [[/folder]] |
| 22 | |
| 23 | [[folder: Animus's role in Barthandelous's plans]] |
| 24 | * What was Anima's role in all this? Was it in on Barthandelus' plan, or did Barthandelus ''guess'' that Anima would give the "turn into Ragnarok and destroy Cocoon" Focus to everyone? |
| 25 | ** Everything that Anima has done for the past five hundred years has been related to Ragnarok - making Fang and Vanille l'Cie, branding Serah to bring people to Anima to make them l'Cie and branding the party members to try to turn them into l'Cie. Anima seems purely [[{{Pun}} focused]] on Ragnorak. Barthandelus was just counting on Anima not giving up on the goal of destroying Cocoon. |
| 26 | ** Well, Barthandelus may have been lying. The Focus vision the party has is of the ending, where Ragnarok saves Cocoon from falling. Perhaps Anima was trying to prevent Barthandelus and the other Cocoon Fal'Cie from winning. |
| 27 | ** Agreeing with the above entry. Barthandelus ''was'' lying. Let's face it, nearly every single important thing he said was a lie to get the l'Cie to act in destroying Orphan. "Pulse and Cocoon are enemies! The opposite sides are vipers/monsters? Whoops, ILied. You're alike, but you humans are too blind to see it." "I'm going to let the Cavalry attack Orphan, catch them if you can! Whoops, ILied. They're Cie'th now. You still have to 'save' Orphan, though." "Your Focus is to become Ragnarok and end Orphan's suffering, destroying Cocoon!" ... What does anyone think goes there? The Focus vision the party had was vague enough for Barthandelus to put ''anything'' there as long as it suited his purpose. |
| 28 | *** Exactly. If it's one thing that everyone must keep in mind on this page, it's that ''Barthandelus is a filthy liar''. There is ''no reason'' to believe a single word he says. |
| 29 | ** Added note: Soon after Anima brands the party as l'Cie, it began to crystallize (destroying the Hanging Edge in the meanwhile) and landed into Lake Bresha, crystallizing that as well. This verges into WMG territory, but it looks like Anima completed its own Focus (''finally''), which was to make the l'Cie necessary to save Cocoon with the use of Ragnarok. |
| 30 | *** Someone else figured this out too? Good! After a couple playthroughs, or watching the cutscenes online in some cases, you can clearly see Orphan's Cradle coming before Ragnarok, who is in Eden. Additionally, in the datalogs, it states that the Pulse Fal'Cie are searching for something. But they are also more than capable of getting into a war with Cocoon. This means that they probably have a bit more flexibility than the Cocoon Fal'Cie when it comes to interpreting their Foci. Anima's Focus was probably "protect humans". With how dangerous Gran Pulse is, being able to interpret things differently is crucial to the survival of the Fal'Cie as well as the humans. |
| 31 | *** Did I miss a datalog? Do fal'Cie bear l'Cie brands or is a focus just something natural that every fal'Cie has and then, barring whatever obstacle or other failure, unerringly completes? Also, just to add, I thought it was amazing how fulfilling a focus can result in the crystal spreading, thereby giving the possibility of final usefulness beyond the focus and, helping guide l'Cie towards it. |
| 32 | [[/folder]] |
| 33 | |
| 34 | [[folder: Relationship between Pulse Fal'cie and Cocoon]] |
| 35 | * Related to the above two questions: what exactly is the relationship between the Cocoon and the Pulse fal'Cie? We know that each made the other out to be the enemies of humanity, and themselves as its protectors, as propoganda for the humans in their respective domains. But is there a grain of truth to this; do the two groups of fal'Cie have some animosity, or at least distrust, of one another? Or were they always in it together to call back the Maker? Support for the former is that the Pulse fal'Cie never seem to have cared as much about the plan as the Cocoon fal'Cie, and that [[spoiler: in ''VideoGame/FinalFantasyXIII2'', after the fall, the Pulse fal'Cie proceed to mind their own business, not bother humanity, and not show any signs of reengaging with the plan]]. But it is quite unclear how this relationship has proceeded, and what if any communication there's been between the two groups. |
| 36 | ** Based on visuals only, I think the colonized areas on Pulse in FF XIII-2 all have some type of method of deterrent against Pulse fal'Cie, whereas nowhere on Pulse in FF XIII showed any evidence of areas claimed by defense, even if there were ancient structures and mining tech shown. |
| 37 | [[/folder]] |
| 38 | ---- |
| 39 | |
| 40 | [[folder: Early Cie'th transformation]] |
| 41 | * So we get told that if someone suffers massive psychological trauma then they may turn into Cie'th immediately. Gee Barthandelus, maybe you should order your subordinates ''not to do shit like taunting the dad about his crystalised son''. I get that Barthandelus was throwing challenge after challenge at the party to "train" them, but remember: the crux of his entire plan rests on the fact that these six are the only Pulse l'Cie on Cocoon. He can't make more, since he ordered the army to destroy the Vestige that housed Anima. If they turn into Cie'th, his plan ''fails''. So maybe it would be a good idea ''not'' to psychologically torment the party if at all possible, at least until his plan required it for one of them to become Ragnarok. |
| 42 | ** At several points in the story, the human/Fal'Cie/l'Cie relationship is likened to that between humans and their tools or pets. The emotional trauma and constant hardships are intended to hone said tools into a weapon to destroy Cocoon. If that tool breaks, oh well. It's not like there aren't millions of other replacements. |
| 43 | *** But it ''does'' matter because there ''are'' no replacements. Anima has been destroyed by PSICOM, and Barthandelus has no other way to make Pulse l'Cie, let alone l'Cie with the specific Focus he needs. |
| 44 | *** That's actually not true; ALL Fal'Cie have the ability to turn humans into L’Cie, and since the Focus is picked by the Fal'Cie who branded them, Barthandelus simply would have to do so personally rather than from afar. Recall Cid Raines, who's Focus was to guide Lightning and the others along the path to Cocoon's destruction (and then later serve as a puppet who would help incite conflict among Cocoon's population as planned), and he was branded by Barthandelus, a Sanctum fal'Cie - if he could give Sanctum L’Cie a Focus that helped end Cocoon despite his job, Barthandelus could easily do the same with other humans if the party failed, no matter how he had to do it. So long as Ragnarok arrived to end their existence, it mattered not how it happened, why things occurred in the order they did, or other such details - Pulse L’Cie are easiest, no doubts about that, but any L’Cie can be used it seems. |
| 45 | ** Barthandelus has only casual interest in the rest of the party, he's primarily interested in Fang and Vanille. In fact, he's the one who turned Fang & Vanille into crystal hundreds of years ago, after observing their power but realizing without Vanille's cooperation that Ragnarok would be incomplete. By the time they awake, he has his personal l'Cie (Cid) capture and befriend Fang, and begins the Purge at any mention of a l'Cie as a way of hunting out Vanille. The emotions of the rest of the party are definitely secondary to his plan. He may have been wanting them to turn into Cieth anyway, judging from how the ending goes. If Lightning/Snow/Sazh/Hope turn Cieth from his emotional torture, it would leave the Pulsians with few options to fight except form Ragnarok. |
| 46 | ** Who said Barthandalus ordered Jihl to deliberately torment Sazh? For all we know, Jihl did that of her own volition to see what would happen. |
| 47 | ** Also, the torment did actually result in Sazh besting his Eidolon and getting stronger. Perhaps, given the battles he'd been through up till then, Barthandelus knew Sazh wouldn't give up, or at least would only be worth keeping alive at all if he didn't. |
| 48 | [[/folder]] |
| 49 | ---- |
| 50 | |
| 51 | [[folder: Reviving from crystal stasis]] |
| 52 | * Why does ''anyone'' turn back from Crystal Stasis? They never explain what the conditions are, if any. |
| 53 | ** l'Cie who finish their Focus are considered servants to the fal'Cie, and so when they don't need you you're a crystal and when they do they revive you. Vanille and Fang were needed, and the other people were needed to "establish that happy world". |
| 54 | ** Death of the fal'Cie who issued the focus may also be a way for them to turn back - it's the only possible solution for why everybody turns back at the end. |
| 55 | *** But that doesn't work, since it was Anima who issued the Focus for Serah and Dajh. |
| 56 | *** Anima for Serah, but it was the fal'Cie at the Euride plant that issued Dajh's focus. |
| 57 | *** Anima was behind the entire party's focus as well. |
| 58 | *** It could work, since all of the fal'Cie on Cocoon probably died, but then Fang and Vanille would have woken up too. Although it looked as though they may have been. |
| 59 | *** They were sentient, so they were definitely different to normal Crystals. It may be something to do with becoming Ragnarok. |
| 60 | ** Barthandelus couldn't exactly tell Jihl not to torment Sazh about the death of his son. As the primarch, it would be very bizarre if he showed any sort of mercy to the Pulse l'cie, who were considered to be the ultimate enemy of Cocoon. Moreover, he made it clear that he had another way to destroy Orphan if his plans for the party didn't work out: he would manipulate the Cavalry into unwittingly destroying it by spreading word that it was using Raines, his replacement, as a puppet. |
| 61 | *** It's one thing to be ruthless towards an enemy. It's another thing to go out of your way to torment them, especially with the knowledge that they could transform into powerful, mindless creatures of destruction. It's not uncommon for leaders to be concerned about the behavior of the people under their command, either. |
| 62 | *** But that other plan was a ''lie''. He turns the Cavalry into Cie'th the moment they enter the Sanctum by making them l'Cie without a Focus. |
| 63 | ** Read the Analects and listen closely to the dialogue. It's strongly, strongly implied that the Goddess Etro had a hand in turning them back. Vanille and Fang remaining crystallized was a sort of reward/reprieve for them after all the crazy trauma they went through. |
| 64 | *** Confirmed in the sequel, where Yeul (an author of some of the analects) tells Serah that Etro intervened and turned the party back (along with Serah and Dajh) as an act of pity and mercy.[[/folder]] |
| 65 | ---- |
| 66 | |
| 67 | [[folder: Bullets vs Legends]] |
| 68 | * If only Ragnarok can kill a fal'Cie, why does PSICOM attempt to destroy the Pulse Vestige? Does that mean [[Main/WhatHappenedToTheMouse Anima is still alive]]? In fact, ''how the bloody hell did Lightning's party kill Orphan without using Ragnarok''? The fact that they managed to do so rendered Barthandelus' entire plot (which hinged on the idea that Ragnarok was the only way to kill a fal'Cie) an overcomplicated waste of time. |
| 69 | ** I assumed that Anima was alive after the battle - he turns the party into l'Cie directly after it and has enough energy to emit the wave that destroys the Hanging Edge and crystallizes Lake Bresha. Orphan-wise though, I'm drawing a blank. |
| 70 | ** Ragnarok seems like a bit of Fal'Cie mythology to me. The party kills at least one other Fal'Cie at the end of the ScrappyLevel tower. |
| 71 | *** After the first battle with Barthandelus he tells them that he did not die because they did not "fight to win" before telling them of the "sure" way of killing a fal'Cie. They could do it on their own, but Ragnarok would make things a lot easier for them and would be capable of destroying everything at once. |
| 72 | ** Ragnarok was '''not''' the only thing that could kill a fal'Cie. Barthandelus never says that. He just says that Ragnarok is the one who's destined to destroy Cocoon. If only Ragnarok could ever kill a fal'Cie, the Euride fal'Cie wouldn't have needed to make Dahj a l'Cie to defend it because Fang and Vanille wouldn't have been a threat. |
| 73 | ** I had the impression that Barthandelus, being aware of the strength of human willpower, knew that they were determined enough to come up with their third option. So he has them use Ragnarok, noted in the datalog as being the incarnation of wrath, to destroy Orphan, hoping that Fang and Vanille would be too caught up in anger to think straight and use Ragnarok's power for good.[[/folder]] |
| 74 | ---- |
| 75 | |
| 76 | [[folder: Question of crystal focus]] |
| 77 | * So there's that scene where Serah and Vanille are talking, and Serah mentions that she had the same dream about Ragnarok that everyone else had, suggesting that her Focus was to become Ragnarok and destroy Cocoon. Vanille then cites that as a reason that Serah turned to crystal for a reason other than completing her Focus. So... what was it? Or did Vanille get it wrong and Barthandelus was actually telling the truth when he said her Focus was to gather potential l'Cie? |
| 78 | ** Serah's focus is never really made clear. I'd say that Vanille was just trying to cheer Snow up and that Barthandelus was telling the truth. She wouldn't have turned to crystal if her focus was to become Ragnarok. |
| 79 | ** Cid turned to crystal (for a bit), and he outright defied his focus. My WMG: a strong sense of personal satisfaction is what triggers the change. Usually that's caused by fulfilling their focus, but perhaps that can be counterfeited by doing something else. Serah got Snow to promise to protect Cocoon, which clearly made her feel relieved. Cid was able to cut his strings (for a bit) and saw that the party was resolved to defy their focus.[[/folder]] |
| 80 | ---- |
| 81 | |
| 82 | [[folder: Barthandelus's accessory]] |
| 83 | * Just what the heck is that rukh thing of Barthandelus'? We know from the Datalog that it's called Menrva, but what kind of thing functions as a fal'Cie TransformationTrinket, a self-aware GlobalAirship, a spy camera, ''and'' the catalyst for Barthandelus' assimilation into Orphan? I accept that Cocoon and the fal'Cie have access to wonders far beyond our current technology level, but Menrva's only function seems to be [[NewPowersAsThePlotDemands to provide whatever plot device the story needs at that moment]]. |
| 84 | ** [[WildMassGuessing Menrva might be Bart's True Body, or at least an aspect of his being.]] |
| 85 | ** [[WildMassGuessing It's the Masamune.]] Or like, the [[WhenAllYouHaveIsAHammer cleric's]] version of Cloud's Ultima Blade and it changing is the Menrva version of Omnislash [[BladeSpam (yes. oh yes)]].[[/folder]] |
| 86 | ---- |
| 87 | |
| 88 | [[folder: Uncanny Ending Survival]] |
| 89 | * We killed Orphan but managed to screw up Bart's plan anyway, yay! But wait....[[NotTheFallThatKillsYou why didn't everybody die from the massive surge in temperatures, earthquakes, tsunamis, etc. caused by the planet falling]]? Those Ragnarok powers didn't seem to turn on very quickly... Also, the Cocoonians now have no food or power outside of killing the giant turtles and beasts that even their superpowered saviors had trouble killing. [[EsotericHappyEnding How long will they last?]] |
| 90 | ** WordOfGod says there may be [[AuthorsSavingThrow a direct sequel]], so stay tuned for answers. |
| 91 | ** There's also the problem that the Coccoonians now think the heroes tried to kill them all. Hope they enjoy being hunted down by the entire human race. |
| 92 | ** If you mean 'Everyone' as in Everyone on Cocoon, they were already evacuated to Pulse by airship as the l'Cie were fighting as per Rosch's last order. The people aren't pampered anymore, but considering that a couple of Sanctum troops can take down a King Behemoth, their survival isn't ''that'' farfetched. That, and no one is actually stupid enough to try and fight a giant turtle or beast that their superpowered saviors have/had trouble killing, considering there are ''smaller beasts'' to kill for that. Honestly, the happy ending depends on just how much you did during the game. If you freed the chocobos from the Sahagin, you just unlocked a mode of transportation for the new residents of Pulse. If you activated the Waystones, they have something to occupy themselves with (mining in Mah'habara, fixing machinery in Oerba and making it habitable). If you beat Titan's trials, you're officially strong enough to ''beat'' aforementioned beasts without any actual trouble. And even if you didn't do all of that, you unlocked the Menhirrim in Taejin's Tower that flew off to beat the holy hell out of similar beings to Dahaka and 'save the world', and you killed any fal'Cie that would continue giving Cocoonians a Focus. They literally have nothing to worry about except their own stupidity. Re: hunted down by the human race: If you notice by talking to someone in Edenhall before fighting Orphan, they shout 'Damn those Pulse l'Cie!' seemingly unaware that ''said l'Cie is standing right next to them''. SurprisinglyRealisticOutcome: the public's memory is as malleable as frickin' ''sand''. No one is going to know who they are unless they see an active brand, but since the end has everyone's brand burned off similar to Fang's, it'd be amazing if they ''did'' find someone who still hated their guts. |
| 93 | ** Actually, their brands were frozen like Fang's when they were brought back from their Cie'th form, but weren't they completely ''gone'' when they woke up from cryostasis? Otherwise, yeah, the people of Cocoon are pretty stupid, but they'll be okay. |
| 94 | ** The Oretoises aren't ''that'' big of a problem for your average person living on Pulse. Yes, they're insanely powerful, but the plus side is that they don't attack people unless they're provoked. And unless you have CP pr components to grind, WhoWouldBeStupidEnough to pick a fight with a turtle that's bigger than most houses?[[/folder]] |
| 95 | ---- |
| 96 | |
| 97 | [[folder: Barthandelus and Orphan as potential allies]] |
| 98 | * Even though they had the same goal, were Barthandelus and Orphan working together to achieve it? The fact that Orphan is a DeathSeeker isn't revealed until after the former's defeat, so it isn't made clear. For that matter, were all of the Cocoon fal'cie collaboring with Orphan to destroy it, or were they acting without his consent? |
| 99 | ** I get the idea that the deaths of the millions of Cocoon fal'Cie was decided to be a necessary sacrifice to make their plan work. |
| 100 | ** They had to be working together, otherwise it makes no sense as to why Barthandelus' plan involves killing Orphan and not Eden directly. Maybe there was some kind of suicide pact going on. |
| 101 | ** Well, Eden was getting power from Orphan (and then transmitting the power and orders to the other millions of fal'Cie). If Eden was killed, Orphan could just direct that energy elsewhere. Just killing Eden would be like...well, I can't think of anything but it wouldn't fulfill the focus. Cocoon would still be in the air. |
| 102 | ** There's no concrete evidence that any fal'Cie were in on the plan other than Orphan, Anima, and Bart. You could probably make a case for Eden, too. Maybe they were, maybe they weren't. But even if they were, who says they all died? Just shutting off Cocoon's power shouldn't kill them any more than it would kill anyone or anything else by itself. For that matter, fal'Cie are really damn tough, so even if the plan had gone off without a hitch they probably would have survived the plummet to Pulse. |
| 103 | ** From the look/sound of it, Barthandelus either created the fal'Cie and shoved them into Cocoon to do his bidding without them any the wiser, or pulled them straight off of Pulse without their consent, with the Maker having made them all beforehand. If they were all in on the plan, it'd just be a CruelMercy to have them alive. But on that note, they didn't die. Their regular power is given to them through their crystals, Orphan just amplifies it by channeling it through Eden. Killing off Orphan just lowered their power by end-game. If they can be fished out of what's left of Cocoon, they'll still be functioning, but on a smaller scale. |
| 104 | ** Actually, it was Lindzei that created Cocoon and Cocoon fal'Cie. Analect 8: |
| 105 | *** ''As our fal'Cie are the children of Hallowed Pulse, so are the fal'Cie who lurk within Cocoon the brood of Lindzei... Cocoon fal'Cie are of Fell Lindzei's line, yet that did not spare them.'' |
| 106 | ** Analect 3 |
| 107 | *** ''And lo, the viper Lindzei bore fangs into the pristine soil of our Gran Pulse; despoiled the land and from it crafted a cocoon both ghastly and unclean.Lies spilled forth from the serpent's tongue: "Within this shell lies paradise." Men heard these lies and were seduced and led away.'' |
| 108 | ** Although this throws a monkey wrench into the whole thing if you happen to believe that Bart and Lindzei happen to be the same thing. Anyway, Cocoon fal'Cie are powered by Orphan, he's supposed to be the battery that keeps Cocoon running. If you take the batteries out of a flashlight, then it isn't able to make light. The crystals just seem to be the conduit of Orphan's power and/or an aesthetic similarity (or just because its Final Fantasy and they sure do love their crystals). They may not literally be "dead", if they have consciousness, but they will be "dead" in the eyes of Cocoon citizens, who don't know that their precious keepers are powered by a creepy baby-wheel. There doesn't seem to be any evidence that they Cocoon fal'Cie are still alive, and while there might not be proof that they died, the game seems to be implying that they are. |
| 109 | *** Yeeeeaaaaahh '''NO'''. Each fal'Cie is powered by their very own crystal. Orphan just amplifies their already existing power and keeps Cocoon afloat by himself. The battery-flashlight analogy is completely off. |
| 110 | * If Orphan is the fal'Cie of sunlight, why is Phoenix the, you know, ''sun'' of Cocoon? |
| 111 | ** Orphan ''represents'' the sun, as the power source of Cocoon that grants life to Eden. He's not the ''actual'' sun.[[/folder]] |
| 112 | ---- |
| 113 | |
| 114 | [[folder: First form Orphan]] |
| 115 | * Orphan. Especially its first form. Is it supposed to represent something? |
| 116 | ** The purple thing is the dad. The white thing is the mum. The thing in the middle is a child. It's essentially a family, so the final form literally is an orphan since you killed it's parents. It's also part ophanim. |
| 117 | *** You know, speaking of Orphan's 1st form, is Dysley(and Menerva as well) conscious when they're talking or is that Orphan using them both as mouth-pieces? Also, was it part of the plan for Dysley to fall into Orphan's pool or was that just a coincidence? |
| 118 | *** Don't know, I mean it made him more powerful, rather stupid to make their goal of killing Orphan more difficult. |
| 119 | ** The mother part, is it Eden? or what fal'cie is it? |
| 120 | ** He may be a reference to the Gnostic Demiurge as well. Being a forsaken child that (somewhat) rules over a fabricated world, and the Fal'cie definitely have connections to the Archons who also are frequently associated with gaining worship through tricks and illusions. Most notably, [[OrSoIHeard according to the wiki at least]], the creators said that Orphan's weakness to the Death spell is a tribute to the instant death trick against the final boss in the original ''[[VideoGame/TheFinalFantasyLegend SaGa]]''. Said final boss being a far more blatant Demiurge reference.[[/folder]] |
| 121 | ---- |
| 122 | |
| 123 | [[folder: Memory Loss Inconsistency]] |
| 124 | * I had an honest-to-god fridge moment for this one; why did Fang lose her memory and Vanille didn't? |
| 125 | ** Probably had something to do with her becoming the incomplete Ragnarok and the Goddess having to intervene. Alternatively, she probably single-handedly killed a bunch of Cocoon's people as Ragnarok. Maybe it's all repression. |
| 126 | ** Actually, she didn't. She was lying too, There's a cutscene on Pulse where Vanille basically admits her lie, then Fang admits that she was lying too, to protect Vanille. |
| 127 | *** Actually, she did, she was bluffing to get Vanille to tell her what happened, pushing her to confront her own role in events and thus introducing Hecatoncheir. |
| 128 | ** Maybe she wasn't in control when she transformed, and doesn't have memory of the event, like it happens constantly with people with an evil transformation (hollow ichigo, 4+ tailed Naruto, fully demon Inuyasha etc.)[[/folder]] |
| 129 | ---- |
| 130 | |
| 131 | [[folder: Oerba "fallout"]] |
| 132 | * What the hell happened to Oerba? It's covered in crystal dust, and we've only seen Anima and Ragnarok turn things into crystal. Did a l'Cie just crystal-nuke the place turning the War of Transgression? If so, why is there no battle damage? The only damage to the town is normal wear and tear from the passage of time. Considering that a chapter or so of the game is devoted to getting there to find answers, it's pretty appalling that we're given ''no explanation whatsoever''. |
| 133 | ** Anima, Oerba's Fal'Cie, turned some of the people into l'Cie to defend the town. Those l'Cie eventually became Cie'th, so more l'Cie had to be made, which eventually became Cie'th... on and on until the entire town is Cie'thed. Maybe Cie'th just give off crystal dust as their bodies get worn down over time, and there's certainly been no short supply of either. |
| 134 | *** So why does the party find similar crystal lights floating around in Orphan's chamber? Personally, my guess is it has something to do with the presence of a fal'Cie. In Oerba, there was Anima, Oerba's fal'Cie, and later Barthandelus was in the area at the same time as the party. More dust is found in Eden, when the party sees Dysley again (I believe it's the area with the Adamantoise). Towards the end, we find it again in Orphan's lair, where both Bart and Orphan were waiting. |
| 135 | ** Don't forget, Vanille and Fang were in crystal stasis for over ''five hundred years'' before the events of the game started. A lot can happen in that time frame. |
| 136 | ** This is one of the things explained in the "optional" Datalog - Anima was responsible for the maintenance of Oerba before it was taken to Cocoon. Anima's absence meant that it couldn't maintain Oerba any longer - what you see is what happens when a town dependant on fal'Cie maintenance stops receiving it. |
| 137 | *** Actually it still hasn't been explained what the white dust means. It was a town, why would it would have so much crystal dust just because it didn't had a Fal'cie? Toejin Tower didn't got covered in crystal dust. |
| 138 | *** I think it's implied that due to the proximity of Cocoon, dust began falling on it. |
| 139 | *** Doylist reason: white crunching not-snow still stands for SnowMeansDeath. |
| 140 | ** Ragnarok tore off a huge chunk of Cocoon, and Oerba is pretty close to Cocoon, maybe she tore off a chunk, crystalized it and flung it, it smacked off Tajins tower (hence why it snapped) and landed near Oerba throwing up a huge crystal dust cloud. |
| 141 | ** What, um . . . . [[https://finalfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Royal_Ripeness Flan droppings yo]] Or they can eat crystal so, [[ArtisticLicense the scraps.]] Thereof. After [[BetrayalByInaction awhiiile]] it sort of, [[FairWeatherFriend took over]], or encroached due to [[DoNotTouchTheFunnelCloud wind currents]], and built up probably due to other Floating Continent topographical phenom.]] Speaking of long passages of time, they are probably the remains of countless meaningless (by comparison) crystallized foci. Hrm, and according to [[PerceptionFilter this]] there could be yet another crystal beast lurking nearby. Final scenario, you are correct in terms of a War of Transgression [[MysticalCityPlanning debacle, backfire, or catastrophe]].[[/folder]] |
| 142 | ---- |
| 143 | |
| 144 | [[folder: FFXIII Pantheon clarification]] |
| 145 | * Lindzei, Cocoon, The Maker, Hallowed Pulse, and Barthandelus. Oh boy. A clusterfuck of Pulsian lore right here. |
| 146 | ** First, how many deities are there supposed to be, and who are they? Cocoon fal'Cie, Barthandelus especially, refers to "The Maker" as Cocoon's creator, which they seem to believe also happens to be the same one as the god of Pulse. The Analects on the other hand, claim that there was another god named Lindzei that created Cocoon out of Pulse and created his own fal'Cie to operate it. So is "The Maker" supposed to be Lindzei or Hallowed Pulse, or, heaven forbid, an entirely separate entity? Do the Cocoon fal'Cie even ''know'' about Lindzei? The Pulsian people obviously do. That's not even counting the headache of adding in the Goddess Etro. |
| 147 | *** The Maker is not charged with the creation of Cocoon, the Cocoon fal'Cie are. If Barthandelus said it was the Maker, he was lying. The Maker is responsible for creating the fal'Cie and humans, that's it. She left before Cocoon was created by Lindzei. The Goddess Etro is a completely different entity, and it's the one that greets the dead when they pass on. Fal'Cie themselves are not gods, they are just considered so because they have powers beyond those a regular human has and provides for them. That's it. Two Gods so far in the ''Fabula Nova Crystallis'' mythology: Maker = Life, Etro = Death. The rest are demigods. |
| 148 | *** But the Maker of Cocoon is Lindzei. Analect 2: ''And lo, the viper Lindzei bore fangs into the pristine soil of our Gran Pulse; despoiled the land and from it crafted a cocoon both ghastly and unclean.'' and 8: ''Cocoon fal'Cie are of Fell Lindzei's line...'' The Maker of Pulse is Hallowed Pulse. Analect 1: ''Maker forged fal'Cie, from fragments Maker's own. Maker forged Man, from traces once Divine. In time the gods departed, leaving all by their hands wrought. Fal'Cie were as Man forsaken, orphans of Maker absconded.'' And 7: ''"It was the Great and Hallowed Pulse who, seeking to expand divine domain, parted the chaos and fashioned realm within; made fal'Cie, and charged them with this world's completion...Men, in turn, offered praise and prayer to Hallowed Pulse, naming their great land in honor of its architect. Yet still the architect departed.'' The Cocoon fal'Cie are just trying to call back "The Maker" which is left confusingly ambiguous. There are (at least) three gods in the Pulse/Cocoon mythology (the FNC is just a series of themes tying the three games together): Hallowed Pulse (creator of Pulse, the humans, and the Pulsian fal'Cie), Lindzei (creator of Cocoon and the Cocoon fal'Cie), and Etro (we really dont know what she does in the context of FFXIII). |
| 149 | *** Yes, and Lindzei and Barthandelus are the ''same guy'', and Bart is a fal'Cie. The Maker created Pulse by parting the chaos, apparently, and Lindzei had to take a piece of the already-existing Pulse to fashion his own realm rather than simply creating it out of nothing. It's not that unbelievable that he's really a fal'Cie trying to ape the Maker, but is nowhere near the same level as her to do it completely. |
| 150 | ** Second, Barthandelus = Lindzei? They both happen to be lying, scheming, deceitful, shapeshifting [[SmugSnake Smug Snakes]] and the datalog on Chapter 13 seems to allude to this with this line: |
| 151 | *** It is for this day that Barthandelus ''built'' Cocoon, tended to its people, and watched over the servants of the Pulse fal'Cie. |
| 152 | ** It also just spells it right out in the Ultimania strategy guide to the affirmative, but I'm not quite sure if that happens to be a reliable source. |
| 153 | *** Yeap, they're the same person. |
| 154 | ** Third point, why would Lindzei create Cocoon? Is it just a giant pissing contest with Pulse? He goes and makes a paradise that causes a mass exodus of people from Pulse to populate it, is that supposed to just be a simple "Ha, ha, your people like ''me'' more, suck on that [[ThisIsForEmphasisBitch bitch]] >:P". It seems like Lindzei wanted just to show up Hallowed Pulse and make his own super-awesome land, leaving behind fal'Cie to take care of it, and ''not'' engage in a mass suicide pact so that he could rub HP's nose in it at the cosmic water cooler. By making the actual process of killing Orphan so damn hard to accomplish, requiring a massive BatmanGambit to actually pull off, it would seem like genocide isn't on his agenda. But Barthandelus then intends to take Cocoon and turn it into a human sacrifice factory and smash it into the ground to bring back "The Maker". If Bart=Lindz, why would he go to this effort when, as its creator, he could just drop it himself? Why would he even ''want'' to drop it? Or, did Bart turn around and decide to try and bring The Maker (Lindzei) back, by turning Cocoon into a people farm, meaning they ''are'' different people after all? |
| 155 | *** The two things aren't mutually exclusive. Lindzei/Bart created Cocoon as a small cozy shell, making it easy to pack a buttload of people into the same space. No monsters means they don't die on their own, just the right amount of Fal'Cie providing for them means they live long enough to keep the population going, all so Bart can kill them all at once when their haven comes crashing down, as opposed to having him plan on wiping out an entire open field of... stuff. Pulse > Cocoon in size, so that'll take longer. The Pulsians ''think'' it's only Lin blaspheming their God and going "Ha ha, I can create shit too" and attracting all of the lazy populace into going to Cocoon to avoid monsters, which gets their reaction of "Alright let's take that fucker ''down''". They're stuck not knowing it's really just a plan to bring back their Mom. He wants to drop Cocoon because to him, the Maker > Humans. Cocoon really ''doesn't'' mean anything to him. Problem being that he can't actually kill people himself on account of the whole Focus thing biting him in the ass. Every fal'Cie has one, and none of them involve actually destroying anything so much as converting it into something else (Phoenix only changes the weather, Titan literally chews up one monster and spits out another, etc.), or at the very least guiding them to what ''can'' destroy them. The whole thing is explained in-game as thus: Maker = Create, fal'Cie = Convert, Humans/l'Cie = Destroy. That's why Bart doesn't kill Orphan himself or something along those lines. Lastly, if Lindzei and Maker are different gods, there would have to be a decently provided explanation as to where Bart came from with ''his'' idea (and where he was during the War of Transgression), why Lindzei left along with the Maker, and why no one mentions Lindzei leaving anywhere at all in the lore. They only refer to one Maker leaving. |
| 156 | ** Analect 8 again: Cocoon fal'Cie are of Fell Lindzei's line, yet that did not spare them. They were betrayed all the same; ''left orphans when their Succubus fled this earthly realm.'' And again, why would Lindzei want to bring The Maker back? Lindzei is supposed to be an evil, or at least an uncaring and incredibly devious god. It would be like a mixture of Satan and Loki wiping out the earth to make God start performing miracles again. I think Eden was intended to be "The Man", Bart would be TheManBehindTheMan, and Orphan would be TheEvilGenius. At some point, Bart and Orphan had some form of BSOD approximately around the time of the War of Transgression. At least Barthandelus acting on his own makes sense and has clearly defined motivations. Lindzei just being ambiguously evil and genocidal and going to extreme lengths to manipulate the party just seems a bit of a stretch. |
| 157 | *** [[FridgeLogic Succubi are female]], and Lindzei is referred to as a 'he' repeatedly except for that one moment, [[FridgeBrilliance which makes sense]]. I'll get to it. Why would Lindzei want to bring the Maker back? Let's see: Lindzei is "supposed to be an evil, uncaring and incredibly devious god"? ''Barthandelus'' is an evil, uncaring, and incredibly devious god. Bart is also a fal'Cie. He's also proven to be Lindzei (by the Datalog and the Ultimania guide), and Lindzei being a fal'Cie orphaned just the same as the other Pulse fal'Cie makes it a lot easier to understand that he's trying to ape his 'parent' to get her attention someday. Makes better sense than him being a random god that just showed up one day to take a bite out of Pulse to spite the Maker who would probably be his equal anyway. Why would Lindzei even ''care'', if he were a separate entity from Bart, and why would he have created Bart as a Cocoon fal'Cie capable of undoing all of his work? Question: Why is it that Barthandelus acting on his own and being ambiguously evil and genocidal makes sense to you despite him seemingly-suddenly appearing at chapter 9, but connecting him to Lindzei (making his plan older than Cocoon dirt) doesn't? The two plots are ''still'' not mutually exclusive. The problem (and the solution) is right below this: ''Not all of the Analects are truth, but they're not all lies either''. The Analects are told by Pulsians with what they know, or think they know. For Analect 8, they say Lindzei disappeared. Fine, expect Bart being Lindzei and being perfectly capable of casting an illusion to pose as someone or something else ''eliminates the need to orphan his own creations for some unexplained reason, only to come back for another equally unexplained reason''. The answer is in your entry: Bart/Lin basically ''is'' a mixture of Satan and Loki. His disappearance according to Analect 8 could very well be a reference to [variation of] the saying "the devil's best trick is to persuade you that he doesn't exist". Lindzei as Bart would basically have done the same thing then, by convincing the Pulsians that he'd left when he was really overseeing Cocoon in typical devious god fashion. The "fal'Cie smoke and mirrors" ability of his isn't just for the plot as we're playing it. Lastly, the Succubus thing, as I just understood it while looking for the saying, the short story it was in by the poet Baudelaire had him referring to the devil as a he except for one moment in which 'he' is referred to as 'she'. Thought that needed to be put there. |
| 158 | ** If the analects are all just Pulsian propaganda, though, then they just seem to make this whole backstory complicated and convoluted and confusing. |
| 159 | *** Well yeah sure, of course it is, if you're speaking in absolutes. The Analects aren't an 'All or Nothing' deal, there's ''truth'' somewhere in the Pulsian propaganda. |
| 160 | *** Precisely. Remember, Cocoon made Pulse sound like a hell on earth. While that wasn't necessarily true, the area is most definitely filled with some brutally strong creatures. Hell, no. Inhospitable? Well... |
| 161 | ** This is how I understood it: there are AT LEAST three gods, Pulse, Lindzei, and Etro. Pulse created the world and made both humans and fal'Cie. Etro is the goddess of death, and her influence is directly felt in the game storyline a number of times: she helped stop Fang from completely destroying Cocoon (possibly by waking her mental conscious, allowing her to hold herself back--thus the white brand), she turned the party back into humans after Orphan turned them Cie'th, and she might have woken the party, Serah, and Dajh from crystal stasis at the end. She's more of a kindly, sympathetic death goddess than a figure of doom and gloom. Lindzei created Cocoon and fal'Cie of his own to house and protect humans, because he wasn't cool with the whole "survival of the fittest" thing Pulse had let go on on Gran Pulse. Then the gods put the fal'Cie in charge and left the world. The Pulse fal'Cie started to go a little crazy from being stuck on their own with just one set duty per fal'Cie, and they started giving out more and more bizarre and obscure Focuses, which only made more people want to move to Cocoon. The war started partly because of suspicion and partly because the Cocoon fal'Cie were literally ''ripping up chunks of Pulse'' to build Cocoon. Then the Cocoon fal'Cie hatched a plan to bring the gods (specifically the Maker) back by committing mass genocide. |
| 162 | ** This whole thing is really confusing, but we know there's at least two entities at work: Hallowed Pulse (a.k.a. The Maker), and Lindzei. I haven't read every single bit of lore, but the way I've most easily been able to swallow it is to buy that Bart isn't Lindzei, but is trying to bring him back. He's claiming he's trying to bring back Hallowed Pulse, but that's a lie, since damn near everything Bart says is a lie. Pulse fal'Cie know this, which is why they're trying to stop him. Otherwise, it would make no sense for them trying to prevent the return of their own god. |
| 163 | *** But keep in mind, this troper thinks Lindzei is the green eyed white faced winged thing attached to Orphan and a darkened Bart. It has a serpent-like tail and huge wings, and Lindzei starts out as a literal SmugSnake who gets more angelic looking in every battle. Did Bart know Lindzei was in the pool? Probably not. But the point is, my opinions on this are somewhat unorthodox, not the least since they probably directly conflict with some propaganda somewhere in the fiction. |
| 164 | ** The following material comes from the Final Fantasy Wiki: |
| 165 | *** Hallowed Pulse, Fell Lindzei and Etro are NOT gods. They are extremely powerful fal'Cie created by the God Buniberzei. Buniberzei searched for a way to the realm of the dead to find his mother Muin (who he had killed). Pulse had the Focus to create a world and find the way, while Lindzei had to protect Buniberzei's body and wake him when everything's ready. Etro had no Focus and got bored/lonely, so she made a reverse AssimilationPlot, sacrifizing herself to create humanity. Pulse created Pulse-fal'Cie to form the world. Lindzei created Cocoon and Cocoon-fal'Cie to protect humans. Humans saw Pulse as the creator of the world, Lindzei its protector and Etro a goddess of death. Also of note: The female half of Orphan's first form is how Barthandelus envisages Lindzei, but it is not his/her real form. (Lindzei's called he, but also "a Succubus" and there are statues in the Sanctum depicting it as a woman.) |
| 166 | *** This is my interpretation: Barthandelus is trying to fulfill Lindzei's focus of awakening Buniberzei. |
| 167 | *** Actually no, the maker they try to bring are "their" maker, which is Lindzei, Buniberzei was already sleep (who knows how long) when Lindzei created the Fal'cie. The Analects were written by pulsians's point of view so he it's called a succubus among other names. Also it could be that the statues and Bart's envision of Lindzei that he manifested in Orphan's first form could be simply symbolic of how he's their mother (maker). |
| 168 | *** Ugh, that was an awesome read. I think one of the most important points is how Lindzei sort of avoids being branded as HeWhoMustNotBeNamed here. Announcing gods such as this Buniberzei denotes a pantheon, much as all the fal'Cie and whatnot do almost anyway. I wonder why Lindzei would bother changing identities to Barthadelous? I'm sure Lindzei could control information easily. Why take on sheperding humans and going to such lengths?[[/folder]] |
| 169 | ---- |
| 170 | |
| 171 | [[folder: Cut game content (???)]] |
| 172 | * Has it actually been ''confirmed'' that over half of the game's content was cut out or is that just a rumor being thrown around because some [=PS3=] fanboys are mad about the game also being on 360? |
| 173 | ** Half the game may be a stretch, but there was unquestionably a large amount cut.[[FlameBait I won't say it was because of the Xbox port, and neither will SE]], it could be for any number of reasons. Example: http://www.joystiq.com/2010/01/13/square-enix-cut-a-games-worth-of-content-from-final-fantasy-xii/ |
| 174 | *** ''It turns out there once were many more labyrinthine paths and dungeons in Final Fantasy XIII, but they got cut. An interview (in Japanese) over at FF-Reunion with art director Isamu Kamikokuryou ("No you!" to his friends) has him saying that the team removed enough extra locations from the title to make up a whole other game entirely. '' |
| 175 | *** A labyrinth is not a maze, it is a path with no branches or dead ends that winds around until it reaches the end. Saying that "labyrinthine" areas were cut (if that is actually said, isn't the interview in Japanese?) sounds like it means that more of the same sort of area that was already in the game was cut. Enough to make a full game is a rather vague statement, as well. It could be hyperbole, or it could have been a ''really'' short game, or it could have been 60 hours worth of walking down the pretty tube some more. It's best just not to worry about it. The game is what it is. |
| 176 | *** Semantics. Ask a random person on the street what "labyrinthine" means and they'll probably say "maze-like" or something similar, since the popular conception is that "labyrinth" and "maze" are the same thing. Of course, we'd probably have to ask the guys at Squenix for further clarification on what they meant exactly. |
| 177 | *** Which would be pointless, since they didn't actually say "labyrinthine", seeing as they were speaking in Japanese. The only source that says that word is a brief article which does not clarify if the word came from a translation of the interview or was added by the writer.[[/folder]] |
| 178 | ---- |
| 179 | |
| 180 | [[folder: Habitat Sazh]] |
| 181 | * Shouldn't Sazh's afro be full of bird crap? |
| 182 | ** I always thought the Chocobo Chick would have the decency to do his business outside of Sazh's hair...[[/folder]] |
| 183 | ---- |
| 184 | |
| 185 | [[folder: Static Fal'Cie]] |
| 186 | * And perhaps this is nitpicking here, but why are [[spoiler: Barthandelus]] and [[spoiler: Orphan]] the only fal'cie that show any sort of character? It's a little jarring when comparing them to others like Anima, who just seem like powerful monsters. |
| 187 | ** Aside from Eden and Titan, they're the only ones that can ''talk''. Anima can't, nor can any other fal'Cie. They just slave away completing their Focus. That's why.[[/folder]] |
| 188 | ---- |
| 189 | |
| 190 | [[folder: Hope's "ineffective equipment"]] |
| 191 | * Also, why does Hope carry a boomerang, despite having no need for a weapon before the events of the game, unlike everyone else? Was he planning on hurting his father with it? A cool toy he bought in Bodhum? Is Cocoon more dangerous than it lets on? What's more, as [[WebVideo/TheSpoonyExperiment Spoony himself pointed out]], Hope is the group's resident SquishyWizard--he does the most damage as a Ravager fighting with l'Cie magic and is not designed (physically or statistically) to be a physical fighter. And even then, he carries around Lightning's hunting knife for a good chunk of the game. That thing looked fairly deadly, even in Hope's awkward hands, so why couldn't he just use that? |
| 192 | ** The description implies that he's used it for amateur sport hunting. |
| 193 | ** As for why he took it on vacation with him before the start of the game, I can't say. But as for why he's got it with him in Chapter 1: At the start of the game he's being shipped off to Pulse which people on Cocoon are told is a wild, untamed hell. No one has any clue what's down there, they only know that it's probably deadly. The boomerang folds up compactly enough that he was able to smuggle it past his guards and description for the item says that it's for amateur hunting so it's at least moderately effective. Remember that he's not a L'Cie at the start of the game (that happens in chapter 3), meaning he doesn't have access to magic yet. He's probably got it with him as a way of defending himself and his mother when they get to Pulse.[[/folder]] |
| 194 | ---- |
| 195 | |
| 196 | [[folder: Cocoon perspective]] |
| 197 | * If Cocoon is continent-sized, it should be a lot bigger in Gran Pulse's sky. It's maybe 10 km up at most, judging by [[spoiler:the sequence where Our Heroes leave Cocoon by airship]], but a small continent is roughly on the order of 1500-2000 km across--meaning Cocoon is at least 500 km in diameter. It should completely block out the sky most places anywhere near it--not to mention most of it should be reaching out of Gran Pulse's atmosphere... And that's not even taking into account the kind of gravitational effects an object the size of Cocoon would have on Gran Pulse by being as close to it as it is. |
| 198 | ** I'd always assumed that by "continent-sized" they meant Cocoon's total internal surface area, rather than its diameter.[[/folder]] |
| 199 | ---- |
| 200 | |
| 201 | [[folder: Cocoons supposed gravity]] |
| 202 | * And then there's the whole ending. [[spoiler:Orphan is slain, releasing Cocoon to fall. It gains enough velocity this way to cause sufficient compression heating at its bottom to liquify large amounts of rock. Then it's abruptly stopped. Leaving aside that its next move should be to crumble around the support pillar, what happened to the folks on it? First, you're released to freefall, along with Cocoon itself - then it abruptly stops from a quite high velocity. Splat. And then there's what happens to those living on Cocoons upper hemisphere, who while this is happening have 'down' rearranged to point toward ''Pulse'' - i.e. what used to be up! Seems to me Barthandelus got his way after all!]] |
| 203 | ** The people were evacuated beforehand as Rosch ordered the PSICOM and Sanctum troops to stop hunting the l'Cie. Everyone was ''off of Cocoon'' by the time that started happening. |
| 204 | ** There isn't enough time to evacuate the whole population of Cocoon between those events. Do you really think ''tens of millions'' of people can be evacuated in a few hours? |
| 205 | ** Watch the ending again, and try ''not'' to miss the part where A) multiple arms of Ragnarok sprout from the lava and ''slow down'' Cocoon's fall before B) the pillar of crystal is formed to encase all of Cocoon and stop the descent entirely. Keep in mind that C) Cocoon wasn't suddenly flipped on its axis out of nowhere, and watch where D) the people of Cocoon and PSICOM troops are standing around on Pulse soil with airships all around them. Hell, there are still airships on their way ''down'' during the ending. Do you really think there weren't enough ships to get a ''sizeable amount out of the tens of millions of people'' on safe ground? |
| 206 | ** You're forgetting one crucial thing: It's a game and the evacuation can take as much or little time as the developers want it to. |
| 207 | ** Also, it's doubtful that all the fal'Cie died instantly when Orphan did. Even if the fal'Cie ''did'' wish to die and be free, they still had their Focus: to watch after and protect Cocoon. So it's highly likely that, during the fall, many of them used their last moments to protect the people of Cocoon however they could. |
| 208 | ** According to "Final Fantasy XIII Gaiden Shōsetsu: Yumemiru Mayu, Akatsuki ni Otsu," many Cocoon citizens took refugee in special gravitation control facilities that were hacked and tweaked that helped protect them from the falling and the sudden decceleration of Cocoon. |
| 209 | [[/folder]] |
| 210 | ---- |
| 211 | |
| 212 | [[folder: Lack of body count]] |
| 213 | * How come there's no survivors or corpse of those purged from Cocoon on Pulse? |
| 214 | ** ... Do you ''see'' how many monsters there are on Pulse? Why can't you just assume that the beasts ate the corpses and that's that? |
| 215 | ** It was my impression that nobody really went to Pulse; the "purged" people were just taken out back and killed. It's just more palatable for the public to believe that [[ANaziByAnyOtherName their friends and neighbors are simply being taken away]]. If the GC or PSICOM actually took a ship down to Pulse, the soldiers would have to be Purged as well because of their contact with the lower world. Also, if enough soldiers saw Pulse, word would eventually get out that maybe it's not so bad. The Purge was a relatively new program during the game, so it probably hadn't happened yet, but sooner or later it would. |
| 216 | ** The moment people from Bodhum started fighting back was the moment that PSICOM just dropped all pretenses of shipping people to Pulse and executed everybody in the Edge. The fact that they resisted was all the proof PSICOM needed that they were "corrupted" by the fal'Cie and execute everyone. There's a reason why the PSICOM troops roaming around the crystallized lake were specifying that they were hunting "Purge ''survivors''." |
| 217 | ** Ahh,hahaha HandWave similar to the reason in previous titles we don't see enemies until the battle encounter.[[/folder]] |
| 218 | ---- |
| 219 | |
| 220 | [[folder:Nerfed Supermode]] |
| 221 | * Ragnarok form. You're handed SuperMode on a silver platter. WHY NOT USE IT? I mean, sure, don't want to destroy Cocoon. That's fine. But why not use it for all those other pesky situations where being Ragnarok would be ''really useful?'' |
| 222 | ** Because, as far as the party knew or was concerned, Ragnarok was an uncontrollable apocalypse. They couldn't possibly have used a nuke the same way you'd use a welding torch. The only time it became clear that Ragnarok WAS controllable or could be used for anything other than blowing up Cocoon was right at the very end. |
| 223 | ** If I recall correctly, there is absolutely no evidence of anything you just said. |
| 224 | *** I believe they use the term "unstoppable incarnation of wrath." Remember, these peoples' beliefs were spoon-fed to them; if they were told Pulse was hell, it's hell. If they're told Ragnarok's sole aim and purpose is to destroy Cocoon, why would they willingly invoke its power? |
| 225 | *** What about Vanille? |
| 226 | *** Let's remember that when Fang gets turned into Ragnarok it took serious emotional and physical damage, then she ''completely lost her shit'' and started attacking Orphan. Even if she could willingly become Ragnarok - the game's ending aside - she had no idea if she'd end up killing the rest of the party too.[[/folder]] |
| 227 | ---- |
| 228 | |
| 229 | [[folder:Hasty Anima]] |
| 230 | * If Anima felt it was appropriate to make ''Hope'' a l'Cie, why didn't Anima just immediately de-crystallize Serah with the focus too? |
| 231 | ** Motivation. It's easy to give up when you're only letting yourself down, but for Light, Snow, and Sazh, quitting means leaving a loved one behind to an unknown fate. But I know where you're coming from; I kept waiting for Hope to develop some sort of MagikarpPower. |
| 232 | *** [[GlassCannon Besides his magic stat, you mean?]] |
| 233 | *** Motivation for Serah would still exist just as Fang has motivation for Vanille, though. :-/[[/folder]] |
| 234 | ---- |
| 235 | |
| 236 | [[folder:BigBad Catch 22]] |
| 237 | * You spend the entire game doing everything the BigBad wants from you [[spoiler: right up to that little bit where Ragnarok ''saves'' the people of Cocoon instead of finishing them off]]. |
| 238 | ** They don't have much of a choice: It's either do what he wants while they concoct a worthwhile counterplan, or be monsters while Bart spends another 100 years pulling up fal'Cie from the lowerworld and rounding up another half-dozen suckers to follow out the plan. |
| 239 | ** They captured the spirit of your stereotypical [=JRPG=] and applied it to the characters, who, like the helpless player, just move forward winning battles, accepting whatever storyline they get and moving on. |
| 240 | ** Actually if you pay careful attention during the scene where the party was turned into L'Cie the vision they get is actually Ragnarok saving Cocoon at the end of the game. It's highly likely that the Focus Anima gave the party was to actually to save Cocoon (and the human race). Barthandalus is just a ManipulativeBastard who's able to lead the party around by the nose.[[/folder]] |
| 241 | ---- |
| 242 | |
| 243 | [[folder: Why not assign direct foci?]] |
| 244 | * If Barthandalus wanted l'Cie to turn into Ragnarok, destroy Orphan, and bring back The Maker, why the hell didn't he make his own l'Cie and given them a very specific setup to make that their Focus? He could have just as easily set things up to give his chosen l'Cie no choice but to end the world in his fashion, without hoping that some random Pulse fal'Cie would give out that same Focus. Given that he could have just trained his chosen l'Cie against military beasts or wild beasts as needed, it seems like he put too much stock into whomever got appointed by Anima - and given how it's repeatedly pointed out in-game that Bart lies like a poorly-knit rug, we can't even be sure that the "destroy Cocoon" Focus was actually the one given (it just could have easily been "defeat Barthandalus' plans," which would have played out the same for all involved). |
| 245 | ** It is heavily implied that the will of the creator itself prevents Cocoon fal'Cie (and by extension, their l'Cie) from destroying their own creation. Some sort of mental block keeps them from doing it. This is probably why he just didn't tell Cid to drop a nuke on Eden or something. It ''has'' to be an opposing fal'Cie that does the deed, since presumably, they answer to a different set of "codes", and obviously, going downstairs and just asking them to isn't going to work in light of all the warring, hence the whole plan of pulling up dormant fal'Cie to curse some random suckers. |
| 246 | *** This still makes it a terrible plan - it's entirely dependant that the Pulse fal'Cie is going to give "destroy Cocoon" out as its Focus. For example, let's say that "defeat Barthandalus' plans" was the Focus in question. In regards to both the characters and Bart, nothing changes - they still do exactly what they do, he still lies about everything, and the Focus is just as fulfilled at the end. Great for the protagonists, but that basically means that Bart's plans are doomed to failure from the outset. His best case scenario is that he can trick them into doing what he wants and they go Cie'th because they screwed up what to do... and even that plan is heavily dependant on the characters not realizing that Bart lies so much. What bugs me isn't that Bart's plan is insane or evil... it's just [[IdiotBall incredibly stupid]], by far the most stupid of any ''Franchise/FinalFantasy'' villain. |
| 247 | *** Keep in mind what he has to work with. He can't directly attack Orphan or Cocoon; he has to rely on substitutes. Nor can he ''make'' those substitutes himself; Cocoon L’cie are bound by the same rules as him. Only something oppositional will work, like something from Pulse and he can't very well send a mission there. "Pulse is Hell" after all; no one would go there especially not to bring something back. After the War of Trangression, there are no more humans on Pulse and the Fal'Cie are more interested in terraforming than anything else. All he has to work with are the L’cie created by Anima, IE the main party, but they are ''not strong enough'' to defeat Orphan who is '''compelled''' to defend himself for the same reason that Bart can not attack him; they cannot disobey their Focus of providing for Cocoon. So he sets up a game long gauntlet to toughen them up. After fighting him the first time, he decides they're still not strong enough so he sends them to the Arc to train, ''which the characters explicitly realize''.[[/folder]] |
| 248 | ---- |
| 249 | |
| 250 | [[folder: Aesthetic Preference]] |
| 251 | * There are no 0s on the elevators in Taejin's Tower. The first floor is floor 111. What's up with that? |
| 252 | ** Pulsian culture probably used base 9, going from 1 to 9, instead of base 10. |
| 253 | *** That's not how bases work. Base 9 would go from 0 to 8, then the next number would be 10. |
| 254 | *** Sure, maybe that's not how bases work in our world - Cocoon and Gran Pulse obviously aren't part of that. |
| 255 | ** [[TheAestheticsOfTechnology Aesthetics]] fool![[/folder]] |
| 256 | ---- |
| 257 | |
| 258 | [[folder: Deepr Character Backstory]] |
| 259 | * So is it just none of our business concerning what happened to Lightning and Serah's parents? Or Sazh's wife? I was kind of interested in hearing more about them. |
| 260 | ** The game's not about them. Since they're dead years before it happens, yeah, they sorta don't matter at this point beyond how those deaths have already affected the characters. |
| 261 | ** It's never known what happen to Cloud's mother, it's never explained what happened to all the parents of Squall and his gang, it's just not important. |
| 262 | *** Actually, yeah, it kind of is. Cloud's mother was killed by Sephiroth and Laguna and Raine were Squall's parents (though the rest of the gang didn't have anything more specific said about their parents beyond Rinoa). But that doesn't change the validity of your point; those characters' loved ones sat outside the plot and died a long time ago. They're not relevant.[[/folder]] |
| 263 | ---- |
| 264 | |
| 265 | [[folder:Hope Lashing Out]] |
| 266 | * No, Hope, Snow didn't get your mother killed nor was he at fault for Serah becoming a l'Cie or Lightning getting involded. He dragged no one into anything. He only showed up to stop the purge. That he was unsuccessful lies with the military being better equipped than his team. If anything, Nora lived a little longer because of him since the soldiers were out to either recapture or kill the "purged". What bugs me about this one is that he forgives Snow, but its never implied that he admits he was wrong. |
| 267 | ** Actually, yes, he does openly and bluntly admit he was wrong. Listen better. 'I needed someone to blame.' And that's just one line of it. He ''knows'' he's wrong in his anger towards Snow, but he's a fraggin' ''kid'' who's been through hell. He's irrational. |
| 268 | *** The problem with that argument is that we have ZERO on-screen evidence that Hope knew that he was wrong, other than his aforementioned admission right after he nearly killed Snow. Up to this point, Hope was seemingly convinced that Snow truly got his mom killed. Not once did he hesitate in his thinking or step back and think to himself, "Wait, what if I'm doing the wrong thing?" We ''never'' see that. It wasn't until Snow got seriously injured trying to protect Hope that Hope admitted that his anger was misdirected (and it's such an easy line to miss). In other words, we're being TOLD rather than SHOWN that Hope knew how wrong he was, so it's no surprise that his admission of irrationality had very little, if any, effect on the audience. The writing should have made his thought processes clearer than that. |
| 269 | ** Yes, it was irrational for Hope to be mad at Snow specifically, but keep in mind he's a teenage boy whose mother was violently killed right in front of him. Also, I believe he ''does'' say that Snow is just the most convenient outlet for his rage. And it's not so much that he thinks Snow "got her killed" but that he wasn't able to save her--and while Snow was trying to save people from the Purge, it was his leadership of the effort that led to Nora taking up arms. She could have stayed back with her kid instead.\ |
| 270 | As for Lightning, she just doesn't like Snow, but loves her sister, so is prone to assuming that something that's gone wrong in her sister's life is somehow Snow's fault. |
| 271 | *** Actually, Lighting is blaming Snow, so she doesn't have to face her own guilt and jealousy. Guilt because she refused to take Serah seriously when Serah tried to tell her that she'd been turned into a L'Cie, and jealousy because she's afraid that Serah won't love or need her anymore now that she has Snow. She's fixating on Snow failing to save Serah, so she doesn't have to face the fact that she refused to help until it was too late. |
| 272 | ** Hope also seems to ignore the fact that Nora voluntarily went with Snow, and then saved his life (again, out of her own volition), and that Snow was trying to save HER life right afterwards. It was probably a bit hard to tell for Hope with everything going on, but surely, he saw Snow grabbing her and trying to stop her from falling. Even though Hope couldn't tell that she was the one who let go, it was still pretty obvious that he was trying to save her. |
| 273 | ** At one point Hope angrily asks Snow "How do you pay for your actions when your actions end up ruining someone else's life?" He's referring to himself, since he believes Snow is responsible for killing his mother. Did he convieniantly forget he ''wouldn't even have a life'' if not for Snow? |
| 274 | *** He's a teenage boy that's broken up about his mother dying right in front of him. Of ''course'' he's going to be irrational about it. |
| 275 | ** I kind of hate that he goes after Snow because he was there, plain and simple, I mean there were a lot of other people that were at fault, but he picked the guy that "tried" to save his mother. |
| 276 | *** In a way, this seems to be a large part of Snow's role in the group and a major personality point. He's a big doormat- he lets Lightening yell at, hit, and verbally abuse him. He lets Fang yell at, hit, and verbally abuse him. He is perfectly willing to take others anger onto himself, and just as willing to forgive and forget. I can count on one hand the number of times we see him react with anger to ''anyone'' outside of the antagonists. Even if he didn't blame himself, it's likely he would have allowed himself to become the target of Hope's anger. |
| 277 | *** Does the above mean that Snow's life has always been a continuous STEELGUARD!? |
| 278 | *** Actually, it is a moment of FridgeBrilliance in that. Snow's mechanical role is about the same as his storyline role. To shoulder as much crap and aggression to take the burden off others. Hope and Lightning were distraught and angry. They needed someone to blame. Snow allowed that someone to be him. |
| 279 | *** Major ditto to the first guy's point. Not only wasn't letting those people fight Snow's idea. It wasn't a BAD idea. There aren't only FOOT soldiers in there, there are a bunch of really powerful enemies, which can pick you off from the air, destroy the bridges you are trying to cross with one blast or BOTH. Forget being where Snow and Gadot were at that time. If you are ''anywhere'' on those bridges, you are NOT going to be safe. You want to get out of there as soon as you possibly can. And to do that, you have to clear the bridges really fast since you could only move along THOSE. The more people fighting, the faster the bridges will be cleared. I don't for the life of me, see how letting those people fight was an inconvinience to anyone. |
| 280 | ** This Troper wonders how many times it has to be mentioned that [[RealityIsUnrealistic Hope is a young teenager, in a situation way in over his head, saw his mother die and just naturally grieves for her and chooses to focus his irrational emotions onto the closest target that he blames for this situation (Snow) so he won't go insane and fall apart instantly]]? |
| 281 | *** Whilst this is indeed true, I think the reason why Hope is such a BaseBreakingCharacter is not because he is a whiny kid, but because he is a whiny kid ''scaled up to eleven.'' My go to example of how to pull off a distressed teenager is Ellie from ''VideoGame/TheLastOfUs.'' She too has been through some absolutely unspeakable crap (including losing a Mother Figure before her eyes) and yet she doesn't feel the need to remind you about it by moaning and procrastinating in literally every scene she is in, and thus is a hell of a lot more bearable to the player because of it. There does come a point where ''It's Realistic!'' becomes counterproductive. |
| 282 | *** At least in some cases (peoples' opinions included), being realistic is actually more bearable than the lack of said thing. Those who don't mind Hope's grief probably think some variation of that, and aren't annoyed in the slightest by his whining not just because it's understandable (feeling for it isn't hard), but because it's a good thing to let it out, and don't let the whining itself change those sympathetic feelings. And thus 'it's counterproductive to be this realistic' doesn't apply to that side of the fence, overall anyway. |
| 283 | ** There's also their vastly different upbringings to take into account. Ellie was ''born'' in a CrapsackWorld, and had to learn to fend for herself and deal with a lot of horrible things at a very young age. Hope lived fourteen happy and comfortable years with his family before his life was turned upside down in one fell swoop. It stands to reason that it'd take a lot more to make her snap than it did him. |
| 284 | ** It's true that Hope's fixation on Snow is EXTREMELY annoying to listen to (this troper skipped most of Hope's dialogue until post chapter 7), but his circumstances make it easier to forgive him (if you want to blame anyone blame SE for making us listen to 25 hours of it), I honestly find it a lot hard to dismiss LIGHTNING's part in the let's-kill-Snow plan. While Hope is a sheltered kid who has been thrown into circumstances beyond his control and blames Snow for his mother's death (his mother being his LivingEmotionalCrutch. See the above troper's response about how reality is unrealistic), Lightning is an adult and a trained soldier who blames Snow for her sister's circumstances because she doesn't want to face her own guilt (when Serah told her that she'd become a L'Cie, Lightning immediately dismissed is as a lie so she and Snow could get married sooner. She ended up driving Serah away in tears) and jealously (she was afraid that Serah wouldn't love or need her anymore because she had Snow now). She blames Snow for failing to save Serah, when she refused to admit there was a proble until it was too late .Quite frankly, Lightning's role in the plan comes off more MurderTheHypotenuse than [[KnightTemplarBigBrother Knight Templar Big Sister]].[[/folder]] |
| 285 | ---- |
| 286 | |
| 287 | [[folder:L'Cie Brand Power]] |
| 288 | * Given that the L'Cie tattoo appears to be both the cause and effect of your death, why hasn't a single person thought of just amputating the infected limb or taking a knife and slicing it off? There is no indication that the brand isn't the sole origin of this curse nor is there any indication that it will reappear somewhere else on the body. Given the three other choices being hunted down by your country's entire military, being turned into a living crystal statue or being transformed into what is essentially a zombie, surely the loss of a limb or a chunk of flesh is actually a damn good deal. Now it could be argued that Lightning and her party are too headstrong to do this, but out of the few hundred L'Cie we see not one of them took the logical step of trying to destroy the brand? classic case of an IdiotBall here. |
| 289 | ** Perhaps it would move? |
| 290 | ** It's not ''just'' the tattoo. The tattoo is just a mark that shows you're L'Cie, it's clearly the person's whole being that's affected. |
| 291 | ** A TATTOO? The Pulse brands showed the ability to glow with otherworldly light while suspending itself from their charge's body in addition to growing as time/stress increases. It'd come back. |
| 292 | ** A few people must have tried it in the past - whatever resulted is probably why nobody tries it now. |
| 293 | ** There are a lot of deformed Cie'th on Pulse. [[WildMassGuessing Who's to say that cutting your brand off doesn't accelerate the process?]] |
| 294 | ** From what I gathered, the brand is not so much the cause of your death, but rather the marker that indicates your state. The brand is there for the l'Cie's benefit to help them keep track of how long they have until they become Cie'th. Cutting off the part of your body that is branded won't stop you from becoming Cie'th, it will just mean you don't know how long until you become one. |
| 295 | ** For arguments sake if it was as simple as cutting off the brand there is a slight problem in that whilst someone like Snow has it in a convenient location; for Lightning she would have to gouge off a pretty sizeable amount of flesh near a very intimate and sensitive area. You could make the truthful argument that the alternative would be far worse; but no woman would take that decision until the last remaining minute.[[/folder]] |
| 296 | ---- |
| 297 | |
| 298 | [[folder: Serah's "Secret"]] |
| 299 | * So I can understand that Lightning wouldn't believe that Serah was turned into l'Cie, and she's probably even more disbelieving due to the whole Snow thing. So why didn't Serah just show her the l'Cie mark on her arm? Even Lightning wouldn't be able to dispute that. |
| 300 | ** Lightning's flashback to her birthday shows Serah did show her the brand at some point during the explanation, Lightning most likely dismissed it as a tattoo Serah got to try and sell her "story" better. |
| 301 | *** omg |
| 302 | ** I noticed at the end of the flasback that the brand began to glow out of nowhere. How would Lightning interpret that? Normal tattoos don't do that. |
| 303 | *** That may have been Lightning's epiphany that Serah was telling the truth, having just learned that a Pulse fal'Cie was really in Bodhum, and could easily have branded her. So far as we've seen, L'Cie brands only glow when they use magic, or summon eidolons... neither happened in Serah's case. |
| 304 | *** Alternately: denial. The sister she was tasked with taking care of is leaving her to get married (And try to tell me that there isn't at least a little codependancy between Serah and Lightning), and is also essentially marked for a damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't FateWorseThanDeath. All of that landing on her at once, one can't really blame her for trying to reject it out of hand. |
| 305 | ** Lightning is unhealthy co-dependent on Serah and REALLY doesn't like Snow. She actually thinks that Serah's dating him as a cry for attention and that once she starts spending more time with Serah, Serah will kick him to the curb. She thinks the whole thing is a cry for attention, instead of, you know, a potential catastrophe.[[/folder]] |
| 306 | ---- |
| 307 | |
| 308 | [[folder:Rendezvous Hope]] |
| 309 | * Why did everyone decide to meet up at Hopes home they first time the returned to Cocoon? Okay so lightning was considering actually following through with her focus (which also bugs me, but lets forget that for now) and hope was joining her; but they decided not to follow through with their focus before any guards knew they were in Cocoon yet. Instead of turning and leaving they head into pulse to see Hope's father. Later when rescued by snow they once again decide to take a walk to Hope's house. Yes I know that it would be nice for Hope to meet his father, but remember that they are fighting and killing [[WhatMeasureIsAMook soldiers who were trying to protect Cocoon]] in order to make it to Hopes home. Is hope meeting his father worth the slaughter of dozens, of loyal guards, terrorizing the civilians, and risking the lives of all the l'cie? At one point hope even says to the citizens "were not your enemy" and all I can think is that considering the damage and death they just caused was YES YOU ARE! |
| 310 | ** The soldiers are trying to PURGE the citizens of Cocoon. To kill them. Lightning says that was the purpose of the Purge. But with the citizens there's a difference. They're waiting to take them to the train stations before they kill them. With our heroes, it's kill on sight. |
| 311 | ** Hope's home is a safe place where they can gather together and plan out their next move without getting constantly shot up in the street. When they first arrived in the city, their plan was to just get through town without raising an alarm and use the train to get to Eden, but the ambush int he plaza ruined that plan. Afterwards, they agreed to a rendevous at Hope's house because they needed a meeting place that was safe. Once they reunited on the rooftop, however, Snow was seriously injured so they had to take him someplace to patch up his wounds, and Hope's home is likelier to be safer than anywhere else.[[/folder]] |
| 312 | ---- |
| 313 | |
| 314 | [[folder:Reckless Infiltration]] |
| 315 | * When is it that in the scene in which they return to Cocoon after Oerba they make their appearance in a grand fashion involving attacking and killing Cocoon guards instead of trying to sneak in the same way Lightning and Hope had done previously? I mean I would understand if they didn't have time to sneak in, but they literally attack the Cocoon guards the second they show up. Did they forget they were trying to save the lives of people in Cocoon? |
| 316 | ** Remember that they came in with their Eidolons out and saved the racers that they inadvertantly knocked off the track, so the citizens of Cocoon probably thought it was part of the show. As Snow's waving to the crowd, the camera zooms in on his Pulse l'Cie mark, causing the citizens to panic and guards to swarm the racetrack. |
| 317 | --> '''Snow''': "Probably should have covered that..." |
| 318 | *** On the other hand, if you watch the cutscene closely, the racer only falls off in a panic because of the ship nearly hitting him as it fell past. Our heroes wouldn't have knocked the racer off the track if they hadn't all abandoned ship mid-air over the largest gathering of people in Cocoon, and instead had piloted the ship to a quieter location and safely disembarked away from the highest concentration of security in the city. The fact that their Eidolons were ready implies that the team had some plan -- but while Snow, Hope and Lightning seemed to be taking strategic actions to pick off security, the rest of their team was just riding aimlessly around the track. What exactly was the point of that, if not to actually make the crew ''look'' like terrorists?[[/folder]] |
| 319 | ---- |
| 320 | |
| 321 | [[folder: Realistic Violence in RPG Context]] |
| 322 | * When Hope is considering killing Snow why does he do it with the knife? Yes I understand that it's suppose to be symbolic, but lets not forget that hope is a magic wielding glass cannon with no strength while Snow is a tank. I have nothing wrong with keeping the knife as a symbol, but couldn't you have at least show Hope use some wind magic, the first spell he learns, to push Snow off the building after stabbing him or something? In fact the only instant of magic other then summons being shown in cut scene was actually from Snow. This seems a pointless example of story and game play separation that removes the watcher of the cut scene from any scene of absorption by having the characters not use the very skills they are defined by in combat. |
| 323 | ** Because learning magic is a product of player action rather than automatic plot, and as such if they had magic in cutscenes they'd be restricted to the rather unimpressive stuff the characters start out with or risk having characters using abilities they don't actually know. |
| 324 | *** Wait, so would that apply to items too? Because as of recently I was wondering why Snow didn't just use a healing potion or something on himself while he was carrying Hope home.. Hey wait a minute...Doesn't Hope use cure on FANG in the last chpater when everyone returns from their Cieth state? |
| 325 | ** There could also have been the motivation of wanting to kill Snow with his own hands. Using magic and all is like, "okay, cool, but it was the power of the l'Cie that did it." Hope using the knife to stab Snow in the throat? Much more personal and visceral. At least, that's how this troper interpreted it.[[/folder]] |
| 326 | ---- |
| 327 | |
| 328 | [[folder:Hope's Eidolon Imbalance]] |
| 329 | * Here's another thing about Hope to bug people. As much as this troper adores the moe woobie that is Hope, I was thoroughly confused when he got his Eidolon. With the other characters, you saw their emotional distress that led to their Eidolons showing up. Hope? He goes offscreen for a while, and when he gets back he's somehow injured, and then he wants to get left behind. Did this troper miss a scene? Why did Hope want to get left behind? Was it because of his mysterious injury? Was it because he was regressing a bit emotionally and felt like the load? Not even the datalog could clear it up. Hope's obvious distress is what summoned Alexander, that part I get. The bit that bugs me is the CAUSE of that distress. |
| 330 | ** His brand suddenly progressed, which meant they were running out of time. He felt he wasn't helpful or strong enough and slowing down the others. |
| 331 | *** After all he '''is''' the youngest and weakest (story-wise) and got hurt as soon as he was alone, not to mention that lightning already told him he was holding her back before, that everyone pointed out that he was no match for Snow, plus when the brands had progressed so much he probably thought the others would had been already in Eden if it wasn't for him.[[/folder]] |
| 332 | ---- |
| 333 | |
| 334 | [[folder:Timing of Hope's Eidolon Attainment]] |
| 335 | * Why does Hope not battle and obtain his Eidolon after he finally stops blaming Snow for his mothers death and accepts she is gone? Given what the story tells us about Eidolons appearing in moments of despair or indecision to put L'Cie out of their misery, and Hope has just lost his reason to even continue attempting to survive; AS WELL as the fact this is the conclusion of a story and character development arc that has been building up for the majority of the game thus far; why the developers choose not to have his Eidolon battle here and simply threw it into the end of a rushed character arc about Hope believing himself to be useless that lasts all of five minutes later in the game is simply ludicrous. |
| 336 | ** Hope was not suffering from indecision after he confronted Snow. Aside from burying the hatchet with Snow, Hope also got to have a heart-to-heart talk with his father shortly after. When his home was attacked, his father's trust in him gave Hope courage and strength to keep going and doing things. It wasn't until they were on Pulse that they ''lost'' all sorts of goal. Hope's Eidolon appears after Hope's brand advanced a good chunk, which terrifies him. He's suddenly confronted with the idea that their time for completing their Focus is getting smaller and smaller. It scares him and makes him realize that, including his previous behavior, he was somewhat a load to several characters (most noticeably Light in Chapter 4, though both got past that) and he worries even more.[[/folder]] |
| 337 | ---- |
| 338 | |
| 339 | [[folder: Selfish Lightning]] |
| 340 | * Here's something that's been bugging me lately. Back in the Vile peaks, Lightning says that she doesn't want Hope to follow her because "With me it'll be fight after fight". Won't that be the case REGARDLESS?? The Purge is still going on and I don't think that the Sanctum is going to stop trying to kill him just because he's a little boy ( because they had an even LITTLER boy on the purge train in the beginning of the game ). It's like, either he fights his way home, or he stays out in the wilderness where a monster or something could attack him anyway. Plus he's be ALONE! Not that I don't like Lightning, but it doesn't make much sense to me. Also, in the beginning of the game when Snow, Gadot and Lebreau try to lead the Purge fugitives out of the vile peaks and fail, how come everyone else died, but Snow and Gadot were barely hurt? |
| 341 | ** If Hope goes with Lightning, he'll be constantly in combat because Lightning has her course dead set on assaulting Eden and taking out the Sanctum. If he doesn't go with Lightning, he can avoid most of the enemy and eventually escape into a more civilized area where he can disappear. However, travelling with Lightning will ensure he will always be fighting Sanctum troops until they either wipe out the Sanctum government or get killed. If he doesn't follow Lightning, Hope at least has a chance of avoiding violence until his brand turns him into a Cie'th. |
| 342 | *** My problem is the place in which she ditched him. It was still chock full of enemies anyway, wasn't it? I think she should have waited longer to do that. |
| 343 | *** Lightning is not being entirely rational at that point. The fact that Odin shows up at that point is an indicator of her mental state.[[/folder]] |
| 344 | ---- |
| 345 | |
| 346 | [[folder:Some Abandoned Gates]] |
| 347 | * If the entrance through the Vestige gates into the ruins was supposed to be forbidden, how come no one was gaurding it? Dajh and Serah managed to get in without a problem... I think I remember it being said that the gates were actually supposed to be a tourist attraction?? Who's to say that some more curious children wouldn't be tempted to go through the gates too? |
| 348 | ** Dajh never got close to the Vestige gates. Dajh was made a l'Cie by one of the ''Cocoon'' Fal'Cie in response to the attack by Vanille and Fang. |
| 349 | *** Oh. Okay. But then what about Serah? |
| 350 | *** That's explained in the Chapter Zero prologue. Apparently it was just inert / dormant for so long people just assumed it was a normal structure and it never showed any openings. It opened specifically for Serah in order to turn her into a l'Cie. |
| 351 | *** Oh. Okay. That makes sense. But why Serah? Sorry, it's been a while since I've read the novel, so I don't remember everything exactly. Is it because she was there when Fang and Vanille decided to enter the Vestige? |
| 352 | *** Fang and Vanille were in a completely different Vestige. They merely ended up in Bodhum. As to why it had to be Serah ... it was probably like with Dajh. The dormant fal'Cie suddenly reacted and branded the first one it got its hands on.[[/folder]] |
| 353 | ---- |
| 354 | |
| 355 | [[folder: Sanctum's Believable Propagnada]] |
| 356 | * I'm completely aware that the Sanctum's true intention behind the purge was to kill off everyone. But why was the public buying it? I mean, as far as they knew, the purpose of the purge is to move every single person to Pulse. Wouldn't that just include people who could quite possibly be L'cie as well? |
| 357 | ** No, the Sanctum wasn't trying to kill off ''everyone''. It was just Purging the populace of Bodhum at the start. |
| 358 | ** Another item under "why was the public buying it", the stated purpose of the Purge was to get rid of people who might have been exposed to a Pulse fal'cie, on the grounds that any of them could have therefore been turned into Pulse l'cie, who everyone is terrified of because Sanctum has been spreading propaganda about how Pulse is [[FireAndBrimstoneHell Hell]] and any Pulse l'cie will be enemies of all Cocoon and murder everyone (there are a lot of lies in there, but that's what Sanctum is saying and the people believe it). But every l'cie has a visible brand. ''Every single one of them''. It might be hidden under clothing, but it IS always there, and these brands are apparently common knowledge. So how did NOBODY ever realize that if they were REALLY trying to get rid of Pulse l'cie, they could have just '''looked for the brands!'''? |
| 359 | *** Umm, it wouldn't exactly be that easy. Ignoring for the moment the rampant Pulse paranoia and fear, asking any person suspected of being a Pulse L’Cie to check for brands would mean checking 'everywhere', just to make sure - Serah concealed her arm brand with bandages, Lightning had hers straight on her chest, while Vanille's lay high on her outer thigh, ie not places that are commonly looked at in public. Doing anything of said nature would ultimately turn the populace on each other in a paranoia/fear frenzy (having been groomed for such a purpose)... and by the time of the Purge, it wasn't yet at a stage where it'd be appropriate for such turmoil, not to the fal'Cie anyway. In the eyes of the military/people anyway, they've been secretly conditioned to believe the Purge will solve the problem, and it's as simple as that; the rational thought of sending 'only' the actual L’Cie away never crossed their minds, because anything Pulse is tainted to them.[[/folder]] |
| 360 | ---- |
| 361 | |
| 362 | [[folder:Lightning's Facade]] |
| 363 | * What's up with Lightning's badass soldier hard-as-nails persona? In modern real-world terms, she's a cop from Malibu, yet she acts like a Marine from Beirut. Is she just overcompensating for her lack of experience and being in over her head, or do the Guardian Corps give waaaaaay more training than is at all necessary? |
| 364 | ** The Guardian Corp is one of two branches of the military, so it makes sense that Lightning would have military training. You also have to consider that Lightning has been in said military for six years and probably received additional training. It is also hinted that she wasn't always patrolling Bodhum and that she used to go off on missions, suggesting that she has additional special training. |
| 365 | ** Bodhum's Guardian Corps are ''not'' an equivalent to Malibu police. They may be a civil police unit, but they are military, and Bodhum's units frequently get rotated into monster-killing duty. Generally speaking, the Sanctum's police forces appear to have equivalent training and equipment to modern military forces, and considering that they regularly have to deal with very powerful monsters and l'Cie, that's justified. Lightning is also explicitly described as being one of the best, and was about to receive officer training. Her attitude, skill, and training make sense in context. |
| 366 | *** She's less a cop and more National Guard |
| 367 | ** Idk, she ''might'' have had a Malibu cop personality, but current events were no doubt stressing her to the max. Maybe Malibu minority cop during Cuban Missile crisis?[[/folder]] |
| 368 | ---- |
| 369 | |
| 370 | [[folder: Tech Issue]] |
| 371 | * Is it just me, or did the bridges and fighters in the Hanging edge with NORA keep popping in and out of nowhere? |
| 372 | ** Are you referring to draw distance?[[/folder]] |
| 373 | ---- |
| 374 | |
| 375 | [[folder: Serah's Focus Trek]] |
| 376 | * What exactly happened when Snow and Serah were trying to get away from the Sanctum?? What was going on once they reached that pillar? |
| 377 | ** According to the datalog, they were trying to get Serah to the Pulse Fal'Cie so Serah could try to figure out her Focus.[[/folder]] |
| 378 | ---- |
| 379 | |
| 380 | [[folder:Why Odin and not Raiden?]] |
| 381 | * Why did they call Lightning's Eidolon ''Odin?'' Given its elemental affinity--and Lightning's name--''Raiden'' would've been more fitting. (Not to mention the added ShoutOut to FFVI) |
| 382 | ** Odin is a recognizable staple of the series, and Final Fantasy is all about callbacks to previous games. Also, if you want to think of it like this, Raiden and Odin were connected in FFVI, so it could still be construed as a reference. |
| 383 | ** Also, Odin ''is'' the Norse god of ''thunder and lightning''. |
| 384 | *** No, that's Thor, but Thor is Odin's son. |
| 385 | *** But Odin ''did'' start out in the 6th century or so as a sort of nightmare, horse-riding, spear-wielding deity before his myth changed over time and he became the Odin that we all know and love. What is Odin in the game? A sort of nightmarish guy that can transform into a horse, and can give Lightning a spear when she rides him. It's still a [[ShoutOut shout out to Odin]], and because this factor of his myth is little known, the story writers are also [[ShownTheirWork showing their work.]] [[AllThereInTheManual It's all there]] [[Myth/NorseMythology in the mythology.]][[/folder]] |
| 386 | ---- |
| 387 | |
| 388 | [[folder: Way Old L'cie Brands]] |
| 389 | * How did the ancient l'Cie's marks on Gran Pulse survive the 500+ years that have passed since the War of Transgression and extinction of Pulsian human civilization? It's understandable in case of the Undying and the robots that were built by ancient Pulsians, but what about the low-level organic monsters that are basically mincemeat for bigger and badder beasts? |
| 390 | ** They must have extremely long lifespans, or something like that... assuming that's true though, despite them being in one spot when we find and kill them, no one said they couldn't move around and avoid being killed by other creatures. Vanille's opening narration of Gran Pulse makes it clear that if you're gonna survive, you've gotta be strong in some way... the Chocobo's are basically harmless, and we see one being killed on-screen, but they're still thriving, as they're fast. The other Marks could easily do the same. |
| 391 | ** Maybe the marks aren't the same ones' maybe where you meet the marks are the creatures breeding grounds?[[/folder]] |
| 392 | ---- |
| 393 | |
| 394 | [[folder: General Procurement In-World]] |
| 395 | * How do you buy items from Cocoon's online weapon stores when you're on Gran Pulse? And, for that matter, how do they deliver the goods ''instantaneously''? (I know the real answer is GameplayAndStorySegregation, but it still makes no sense.) |
| 396 | ** Really, really, ''really'' good wifi connections. |
| 397 | ** Barthandelus stuck 'em there to help the group grow and not die, you would of thought that pulsian save points/stores would look like all pulse tech (gritty old industrial) but the save points are clearly cocoon tech. |
| 398 | ** *whispers* Either a fal'Cie brings them or the machine is [[MundaneUtility a stocked fal'Cie.]][[/folder]] |
| 399 | ---- |
| 400 | |
| 401 | [[folder: Potentially Misguided Fal'Cie]] |
| 402 | * Lemme see if I got this right. The whole point of the fal'cie is that they wanna destroy every human there is in the world to bring their maker back. One, how would they even know if that would DO it, and two, what the hell do they think their god is going to do to them when it finds out the MURDERED EVERY OTHER SENTIENT BEING IN HIS CREATION just to bring him or her back?! If it was God and I returned to my planet to find mankind had slaughtered every other animal on the planet but itself, then I'd either kick their ass OFF said planet and curse them for eternity or outright murder them on the spot. Did none of the fal'cie even remotely stop to think if maybe their god doesn't WANT them committing genocide?! |
| 403 | ** They're desperate to get his attention. It's not a ''rational'' plan, any more than an emo teenager slicing up his or her wrists is rational. Which is basically what it was--a grand scale suicide attempt to get their 'parent's' attention. |
| 404 | ** I look at as a)classic creational folly and b)satire of the human state. It's not the death that they hope will summon their Creator, it's the display of manipulation and control of a force of creation that will somehow bring about it's presence willingly or otherwise. I won't even double check, but what affection do the fal'Cie exhibit? What would they care for the presence of their Maker anyway, besides, other than accomplishing it? Similar to fire: you need the wood, but wood? Not impressive. The spark or smaller flame, even more vital, but still small. Finally the standard fire, the display of mastery and reward of satisfying heat.[[/folder]] |
| 405 | ---- |
| 406 | |
| 407 | [[folder:L'cie Fate]] |
| 408 | * What happens when a l'Cie dies before they complete their focus? For example, if their focus is to kill something, as everyone's seems to be, what happens if they die fighting their mark? Do they just die like everyone else, or do they become Cie'th? It seems like it might be the latter, considering all the Cie'th Stones on Pulse, many from l'Cie who knew exactly where their mark was right when they got their focus, and all but a few of which seemed perfectly willing to do it. Otherwise, you'd have to assume that they either still couldn't find their mark (unlikely), chickened out before fighting them (not always an option, like presumably in the coliseum), the mark decided to leave them alive (unlikely considering what they do to the party), or the fal'Cie gave them an unreasonable time limit, which seems counterproductive. It might also explain why l'Cie never seem to consider suicide an option. |
| 409 | ** I would double check canon, but I think l'Cie retain their right to death on failure. To become a Cie'th is more dependant on denial or loss of perspective of a focus (insanity, madness, even blowing a deadline). But say a l'Cie were about to land the decisive blow but the mark is that much quicker, the l'Cie would die before actually knowing the failure and therefore also not be alive to transform. Same for if a l'Cie dies ''en route'' to a focus. Suicide would ''not'' be covered.[[/folder]] |
| 410 | ---- |
| 411 | |
| 412 | [[folder: Inhumane Conditions ??]] |
| 413 | * What the hell's with the chains and bracelets on the oretoises? Even if they're sentient, which seems unlikely, they obviously don't have the dexterity to put them on themselves, and no one around seems likely to do it. Except maybe Titan? But why? |
| 414 | ** What, Titan isn't allowed to accessorize his favorite monsters? |
| 415 | ** They recently escaped from poachaz.[[/folder]] |
| 416 | ---- |
| 417 | |
| 418 | [[folder: In-game Fall Invincibility]] |
| 419 | * How do our heroes keep falling such ''insane'' distances without even a single bruise or cut? and this isn't the odd isolated case of random immunity either; we see these people fall off roofs or out of burning aircraft at ''least'' half a dozen times. And no don't tell me its because of the anti-gravity bombs/Lightings thing she keeps in her glove because that involves a huge bright blue light that envelops them - which when Snow and Hope fall off a roof (and smash through several windows incidentally) there is no sign of. I also refuse to believe it is because of their L'Cie magic because of the fact they can still be killed from far ''far'' less than the kind of ridiculous damage falling hundreds of feet would cause to your body. At least when Yuna did it back in Final Fantasy X by landing on Valefor's belly she had the excuse of only doing it once and having access to the magic granted by the Sphere Grid that more or less absolutely outstrip anything the Crystarium grants in raw power until you start to compare Overdrives with Full ATB. |
| 420 | ** Getting smashed into the ground from maximum height in battle does a grand total of 10 damage. This can even be blocked by wearing a wristband of all things. Considering there's no defense stat in the game it could just be assumed a L'Cie is naturally hardy perhaps?[[/folder]] |
| 421 | ---- |
| 422 | |
| 423 | [[folder:Final Fantasy 'Fro Style]] |
| 424 | * Why does Sazh have a Chocobo in his hair? do they ever explain that because the datalog certainly doesn't. |
| 425 | ** He bought it as a pet for his son at Euride Gorge just before Dajh wandered into the power plant and was marked l'Cie. |
| 426 | ** Because it's the most nest-like thing on Cocoon, outside of actual nests.[[/folder]] |
| 427 | ---- |
| 428 | |
| 429 | [[folder: Opening Sequence Thing]] |
| 430 | * Can someone please tell me the basics of what I have to know in order to comprehend at least the beginning? It's easier than going on an ArchiveBinge on the wiki IMO. |
| 431 | ** (Warning I will not be spoilering)The train is full of people the government are deporting because they are suspected terrorists and sedition, due to being in close proximity to a PhysicalGod like being (known as a fal'Cie) from Gran Pulse, a place/nation which the government of Cocoon, the nation in which they live (and against whom they are supposedly rebelling/dangerous to) hates and fears. The freedom fighters(NORA) are a group fighting against this deportation(known as The Purge) lead by Snow and his friends. All our characters are trying to reach the fal'Cie I mentioned before for their own reasons(Lightning to kill it and hopefully free her sister Serah who has been turned into a Pulse l'Cie, Snow to do ''something'' to free his fiancee the same, Hope to confront/kill Snow, Vanille to find Fang, Sazh to try and complete his son's focus). The L'Cie I mentioned earlier are essentially people who are forced into doing a quest(known as a Focus) for the fal'Cie whether they want to or not. The reason they go through with it is because if they don't, they become horrible monsters known as Ci'eth, but if they succeed they become immortalized in crystal. There you go, that's the beginning. |
| 432 | *** ''[[{{Doorstopper}} Wow]]'', Yahtzee was ''not'' kidding when he compared this game's exposition to a theater glossary. |
| 433 | *** Why would you need to have the beginning explained to you...?[[/folder]] |
| 434 | ---- |
| 435 | |
| 436 | [[folder: I, Fal'Cie]] |
| 437 | * Why do the Sanctum Fal'cie have a focus/program that prevents them from destroying it? I always simply assumed that it was put in by Lindzei, since protecting Cocoon was their purpose. However the problem is, Cocoon was only created after the gods hightailed it, meaning that either they were older then Cocoon, and so would have no reason to be programed to protect it, or they were created by Barthandalus, who would have no reason to give them that restriction. The only explanation I can think of is that when a Fal'cie is created, by someone other then a god, then the god they are descended from, in this case Lindzei, gives them a purpose much like Pulse directly branding the l'cie. Except that would make it very clear that he didn't support the plan; so they probably wouldn't go through with it anyway. |
| 438 | ** Perhaps it's not protection from harming Cocoon, rather protection from harming their people. At the time, likely followers of Lindzei, which likely morphed into citizens of Cocoon. Likely how Cocoon was made in the first place. It follows the guidelines, it keeps the people safe and cared for, prevents Pulse's adherents from harming them. The loophole being that it also leaves them very vulnerable. So if someone from Pulse DID manage to disable it, every single person loyal to Lindzei is in a position to die in one shot, leaving the gambit of Barthandalus free and open.[[/folder]] |
| 439 | ---- |
| 440 | |
| 441 | [[folder: Perpetual Focus (So To Speak)]] |
| 442 | * I'm quite concerned about the fact that after 500 years apparently the whole population of Gran Pulse is either dead, a Cie'th or a Cie'th stone. we know at least 64 people turned to Cie'th stone (apparently mundane tasks like killing a few imps is worthy of specifically making a L'cie) then there is the Undying which I think were the war of transgression vets who became embittered, I'd assume the Cie'th that are in Oerba are Fang and Vanilles friends and neighbours, then the other Cie'th elsewhere accounts for (a canon would be they were only thought or seen once) id estimate about maybe 200-300 Gran Pulsians transformed into Cie'th, stones and undying, we are told that Gran Pulse is huge, huge enough they made a continent sized sphere, from scraps, so where the hell is the other 99.99999999% of the population? |
| 443 | ** Speaking of probability, the probability of non-leveled up denizens of Gran Pulse surviving against those higher level Cie'th is. just. infintessimal. I don't know what canon supports this but, they are probably nomadic and have to move away from Cie'th constantly and it's just not included in the story. I think also Cie'th tend to "haunt" the area of their loss of focus or the area of focus in which they refused to complete the focus.[[/folder]] |
| 444 | ---- |
| 445 | |
| 446 | [[folder:Haphazard Cie'th Stones]] |
| 447 | * What is up with the Cie'th stones positions in comparison to where you are going to kill the marks? like the mark blocking the city before the Faultwarrens, his mark, is literally, on the OTHER SIDE of the continent! and from the mission quote he knew where the hell it was! |
| 448 | ** I was under the impression that they only regain their sentience and remember their focus once they become Cie'th stones. By the time that happens, they've been wandering around aimlessly for who knows how long as mindless Cie'th. Since they can't really move as Cie'th stones, they're just stuck wherever they happen to be at that point.[[/folder]] |
| 449 | ---- |
| 450 | |
| 451 | [[folder: Flan Discretion]] |
| 452 | * In a futuristic world of battle mechs, rocket launchers, jetpacks, drones, machine guns, power armour, airships and fighter aircraft; why would anyone go and put a siren on top of a flan or build a robot with basketballs for hands that punches you? These things simply do not make sense in-universe. And whilst we are on the subject, where are the non-Fal'Cie related monsters in this game coming from anyway? In previous games there were always answers within the narrative, always some otherworldly event or enemy that was spawning them. In this game however they are just ''there''. |
| 453 | ** They might be elemental sirens. I [[CostumeTropes wondered]] about the revolving flashers on the flans too, but then I realized it might be to shame them into submission or service. Or maybe the [[ImpossiblyCoolClothes flans are just too cool.]] As for non fal'Cie monsters I'm turning to [[MechanicalEcosystem real world explanation.]] Also, in FF XIII-2 there were rift beasts that I believe were not fal'Cie . . . wait, wth are Chocobos?!?!? lol |
| 454 | ** Actually, the first six games don't provide any real explanation to the monsters' origins at all, really. Anyway the answer is simply that the monsters are Pulsian wildlife. The sanctum breeds some of them and cybernetically augments them in the Gapra Whitewood and then uses them as attack "dogs". As for the first half of this question, this like many other Final Fantasy/RPG settings, is a world in which guns and rocket launchers are not necessarily more effective than swords and gauntlets. From that angle, equipping a robot with boxing gloves makes sense![[/folder]] |
| 455 | |
| 456 | [[folder:Why Does Snow Seem So Dense?]] |
| 457 | * While Snow and his five L'Cie comrades were traveling in Bodhum on their way to conquer the Big Bad, Snow's friends (aka Team NORA) stopped by for a visit behind an opening gate. Snow realized who the vistors were and ran over to say hi. The NORA members revealed that they knew that Snow turned into a L'Cie. Snow confirmed this by showing them his brand. Yuj, one of the NORA members, then walked up to Snow and angrily asked him, "Why the hell didn't you come and find us!?", which renders Snow speechless. And, Yuj has a solid point. Despite the fact that Hope turned into a L'Cie, he went through the trouble of finding his father, and they had a heartwarming renuion. Snow, on the other hand, didn't bother to look for his friends, nor did he ever mention or think about them once. According to the Datalogs, he even grew up in an orphanage with one of the NORA members. These are people that he's known for a very long time. It's not as if he'd been afraid to show his friends that he was a L'Cie. As previously stated, he was rather happy to see them and even showed them his brand. So, why didn't Snow look for them in the first place? We're not even given an explanation for that. Yuj just yells at Snow, Snow has no reply, his other friends mention that they've all been waiting for him, Lightning makes fun of Snow, and they all laugh. That's it. The subject is just dropped altogether. Not that I hate Snow or anything like that, but um...did he simply forget about Team NORA? Because it seems that the writers did. |
| 458 | ** Above in the section about the thing between Hope and Snow it's said Snow considers providing his friends with a "punching bag" is essential, meaning he values their comfort even at his own expense. He might not have immediately gone to them for two reasons, in my opinion. |
| 459 | *** 1) he didn't care. It was life changing but it didn't change himself, and he was probably confident that however it was revealed, he and his friends would weather it, hands down. |
| 460 | *** 2) the total opposite, he wanted to let it settle in his mind before he approached his friends with it. Not that it would go awry, but that it was no chore at all to give it his full attention before addressing his friends in that it might not seem as life changing to himself as it would to them. Out of respect, he wanted to be sure and to come across to them that he was taking himself and them into proper consideration. I always viewed Snow as a tiger or hawk rather than a bull: astonishingly strong and fast, quick to rage and defense, but ''always'' thinking so as not to make things any more difficult for himself [[MurderTheHypotenuse *cough* *cough* Lightning *cough* *cough*]][[/folder]] |
| 461 | |
| 462 | [[folder:And This Is Why You're Not Supposed To Release A Program In An Alpha Build]] |
| 463 | * So let me get this straight. The gods created the fal'Cie with Foci to guide them in their specified roles and to help out humanity, yet also made them emotionally and cognitively complex enough that they could come to resent humanity to the point of wanting to kill themselves? Why did they make the fal'Cie capable of becoming bored of doing the same tasks over and over and over again for countless millennia, let alone develop any hatred of humanity? Especially when some of the fal'Cie don't really seem all that sentient, such as the power plant Kujata. Furthermore, why make the l'Cie system so convoluted? The gods gave their creations the ability to reach out and recruit humans to help them with specific tasks, yet make it so said humans can't even get clear and concise orders on what they are supposed to do, let alone have a meaningful reward for completing their Focus other than being entombed in a crystal forever. What kind of morons would set things up like this? |
| 464 | ** [[AIIsACrapshoot Well most obviously, there's a trope for that.]] The fal'Cie are artificial life that were created to fulfill specific purposes and there are many plausible explanations for why they are the way they are. IMO, the likely explanation is that the gods INTENDED to periodically replace them before they could get too crazy, but then [[HaveYouSeenMyGod they all disappeared without explanation]], leaving the fal'Cie in place much, MUCH longer than ever intended. Maybe they thought that humanity would advance enough to replace them or not need them anymore, and the fal'Cie are essentially punishing them for not becoming self-sufficient. |
| 465 | [[/folder]] |
| 466 | |
| 467 | [[folder: Barthandelus's endgame]] |
| 468 | * '''What I understand:''' Bart arranges for a Pulse Fal'Cie to give the heroes a focus to destroy Cocoon, since he cannot do so himself as a Cocoon Fal'Cie. This would result in Orphan's death depowering Eden, resulting in a ColonyDrop so extreme that the number of deaths would force open Etro's gate and allow access to "the Maker". '''What I do not understand:''' what then? Bart's plan also hinges on his own death to give a body to Orphan, so anything beyond this point is outside of his control. Who exactly is the Maker (Bhunivelze?), and what do Bart and the other Fal'Cie hope to accomplish when Etro's gate is forced open?[[/folder]] |
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