Line #98 Headscratchers/Bayonetta


1	!Per wiki policy, Administrivia/SpoilersOff applies here and all spoilers are unmarked. Administrivia/YouHaveBeenWarned.
2	[[WMG: Why does witch time work on Jeanne?]]
3	Jeanne is also an Umbran witch, and she can use it (though only in conjunction with the Moth Within). Given that, why can't she notice/counter it and move at the same speed as Bayonetta or turn into a swarm of moths to avoid her attacks?
4	Is there a lore reason, or is it just for consistency of gameplay?
5	* Once time has been slowed down it's too late to notice and counter. The same would hold true if Jeanne used witch time on Bayonetta.
6	[[WMG:Why did Bayonetta just fire a few rounds from each gun Rodin had at the beginning? Just to look cool?]]
7	Because instead of using bullets Bayonetta channels her magic through the guns and since she's so strong normal guns can only take a couple shots before they're destroyed.
8	[[WMG:Bayonetta's father was a Lumen Sage...and that's terrible?]]
9	The Umbran witches make a big hullabaloo about 'destroying the balance between dark and light' and treat her like some demi-human destroyer of the universe...but I didn't really see any sign of her being influenced by her mixed heritage, with the possible exception of the white hair in the final summoning, and even then Jeanne has white hair in her magic so...did I miss something or was it just a form of FantasticRacism?
10	* Just about, both groups, at first, seemed devoted to protecting the balance between Dark and Light, until Balder started plotting the Resurrection of Jubileus, starting by fathering Bayonetta, then, once she grew in power, attacking the Umbra Witches to presumably absorb her and revive said Jubileus. The bit about a sacred rule of not intermixing the two was probably set up to avoid said resurrection in the first place.
11	* It goes further. Balder is described as being motivated solely by self-interest. He deliberately seduced Bayonetta's mother and set the two groups on their path to mutual destruction purely because he wanted to be the only one with power over his (artificial? it seems to be powered by human sacrifice) Jubileus. The reason the two groups never before intermarried was a mixture of prejudice and an attempt to distribute power so as to avoid this result; a sort of checks-and-balances arrangement to keep any one man or woman from having influence over both Eyes.
12	** Going by ''Bayonetta 2'', Balder's love for Rosa and Cereza was truly genuine. He doesn't start becoming the monster we see him as in the first game until after Rosa's death and the time-traveling events that end with him containing Loptr's evil soul inside his body.
13	* Not to mention the fact that Bayonetta punches Jubileus into the sun and is remarkably more powerful than other Umbra witches. It's noted within the game that Jeanne is something of a major prodigy, and even after Bayonetta sleeps for five hundred years and gets amnesia, Jeanne only catches up for a little while before being surpassed again. B-girl appears to be a Dragonball Z character playing in a lower power-level world.
14	* This Troper always assumed the white hair that shows up in the final summoning belonged to Jeanne, not Bayonetta.
15	* Jeanne was floating in space at the time Bayonetta summoned Queen Sheba, so she wasn't there, or else Bayonetta wouldn't be surprised when she showed up later on during the credits. The white hair belongs to Bayonetta, since [[http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-0OB4tI7Ha4g/TaXzqLcxeKI/AAAAAAAAATo/5yZYfx6zW8U/s1600/vg_heroines_bayonetta.jpg as shown here]], her outfit isn't ''entirely'' black.
16	-->* That's her gloves, if you're referrencing the "white" part, and unrelated to her hair-summoning as they stay present when she summons anything.
17	** Bayonetta could have been more concentrated on summoning Sheba than realizing Jeanne is alive.
18	* If I may, the "white hair" that appears implied that Jeanne was still alive, and helping (or giving a power boost) to summon Sheba and knock out Jubileus. The "motorcycle" incident must've took place before the big summoning, and after Jubileus goes poof, Jeanne makes a full reappearence to help Bayonetta get rid of the statue husk Jubileus left behind.
19	* In 'The world of Bayonetta', unlocked after completing the game, there's a picture of Queen Sheba that specifically states that it is Bayonetta AND Jeanne's hair.
20	* It's possible that her heritage meant that Cereza could inherit both of the Eyes of the World. That would be something everyone involved would want to avoid.
21
22	[[WMG:Knowledge of Fly Me to the Moon before it's time?]]
23	It is shown that in Bayonetta's flashbacks that she remembers hearing the Fly Me to the Moon song. Now the song ws originally written in 1951, and her memories supposedly originally occured 500 years ago. There is a HUGE gap between these two dates... how the hell did the Umbran Witches know about a song that wasn't even written yet?
24	** Near the ending, Bayonetta traveled to the past to deliver little Cereza back to her own time, and THEN she sang that song to her, which she probably learned during her last ten (or was it twenty?) years in the modern day. That's how the song transcended time. Or at least, reached Bayonetta's memory even back then.
25	*** Oh, I hadn't thought of that. Makes a lot of sense. The fact that the images shown with the singing flashback are the same ones as when we see Bayonetta's mom give her the necklace probably just means she's mixing memories up.
26	** Can't really remember the song being played in any flashback, though.
27	*** Well it's not the actual Bayonetta remix of the song, just someone singing it A Capella in the original song's tempo. It happens when you meet Cereza for the first time.
28	** The second game mentions that Bayo's mother Rosa had signed a pact with a demon (Madama Khepri) that granted her power over time. Perhaps in her use of this power, she saw someone singing the song in the future and it simply stuck in her memory.
29	* [[HumorMode Maybe Frank Sinatra is immortal/a time traveler/both]].
30
31	[[WMG:Why isn't there a Fetish Fuel entry?]]
32	Seriously.
33	* Too obvious.
34	** That's like saying adding a SugarWiki/{{Funny\|Moments}} page to a comedy is too obvious.
35	*** ...They sort of are. Crowners should always be the cream of the crop, and a SugarWiki/{{Funny\|Moments}} page usually is overkilled with anything that warranted the least bit of chuckling. The entire game was built around being Fetish Fuel--listing everything in the game is redundant, and most people won't pick out the, er, sexiest things they can think of, they'll just start picking out anything that could be construed as sexual ("Did you see the way ''x'' smirked in that scene! That totally deserves to be here with taking clothes off for combat!") because everything else is already there. I'm not so opposed to it, though.
36	* There isn't a Fetish Fuel entry because the wiki's gotten rid of them. All they amount to is people announcing, "I like to fap to this," and the rest of us really, really do not care, and it makes the wiki look perverted.
37
38	[[WMG: Hideki Kamiya said Bayonetta could easily beat Dante.]]
39	lolwut?
40	* His reason was that she's a woman, and therefore she has power over Dante. I don't know if he was being serious.
41	** If we want to take this way into the realm of over-analyzation, Kamiya has said that he's not really interested in the Devil May Cry games he didn't direct (all of them except 1), and the Dante we see in that game isn't as ridiculously powerful as Bayonetta. Maybe he's not aware of Dante's power in later games.
42	** Uh, yes, He is. He played some of Devil May Cry 4, remember, and Grace and Glory are obviously expy's of Agni and Rudra from 3.
43	* You kidding me? They'd be on equal terms until Bayonetta whips out her hair, at which point it becomes a CurbStompBattle.
44	* Dante has killed things that are just as big (and sometimes maybe bigger) with smaller attacks. I think Dante would be at least slightly above Bayonetta.
45	** I've played all the DMC games and Dante hasn't fought anything approaching the size of Bayonetta boss monsters, and she summoned something WAY bigger to beat Jubileus. In addition, though Dante has beaten some pretty powerful stuff he hasn't taken on anything with full universe destroying powers, Jubileus would have wiped out THREE at once. I love Dante to death but Bayonetta would at the least beat him, and would most likely crush him.
46	*** So the fact that Dante's single-handedly wiped out THREE powerful demons, each one with power that rivals the other, one of which being the DEMON KING himself, means nothing?
47	*** Of course it means nothing, considering it wasn't even 'single-handed' the first time. He needed the power of Sparda to even ''touch'' Mundus, and then needed Trish's help to finish him off [[SealedEvilInACan not all the way]]. That was essentially a triple-team on one boss. The Demon King himself has no great feat of strength behind him, either. Jubileus at least blew up a moon and was a threat to three realities just by waking up. What did Mundus do, when he can't even take over one, and neither did the others?
48	*** Simple. It's Kamiya's WordOfGod (seeing as he worked on the first game, and there are various hints in the game--the presence of Enzo, Luka name-dropping Trish as one of his past girlfriends, the description of the Band of Time mentioning Eva and Sparda) vs. Kobayashi's WordOfGod. It's up to the player to chose which they're going to follow. I'm not going to pick sides here, but even if one character had an advantage over the other, it wouldn't be some lopsided CurbstompBattle. Both Dante and Bayonetta have some pretty impressive feats under their belts, so we'd most likely be seeing a days-long, country-spanning battle royale ''at the very least'' if these two [[UltimateShowdownOfUltimateDestiny ever bumped heads]] (but given their personalities and lifestyles, I'm more willing to bet that they'd just call it quits after a while and resort to the alternative.
49	*** It is likely that Dante Vs Cereza will not be a simple 1-stage brawl. Her Witch Time will be just one of her aces, IMHO, though only if they can get past a mastered Royal Guard. But I would rather have another DMC 4 happen, in this case some crossover in which they face off at first, like Dante and Nero did, and then face and take out a common enemy. Although, I wonder how Lady and Trish would react to her?
50	*** Plain and simple, they wouldn't fight. Dante is the son of a powerful demon, and Bayonetta is an Umbra witch, and the Umbra Witches side with demons and make contracts with them to gain their powers plus they summon them. I'd see Dante and Bayonetta having more of a relationship closer to Rodin and Bayonetta and Rodin's a fallen angel. In the argument of who's more powerful, I'd side with Bayonetta from what others have said, because I don't really know Devil May Cry enough to know Dante's feats and powers.
51	* This troper would say that in terms of raw power, the two are roughly equal. Punching Jubileus into the sun and the other boss-finishers was actually not Bayonetta herself, it was the various demons she summoned. The actual fight to weaken Jubileus and the bosses enough to get an opening to ''use'' these summons (if she could just summon her demons at any time she wanted, this troper would just ask WhyDontYouJustShootHim) was mostly a DeathOfAThousandCuts. Their physical and magical power seems to be mostly equal. Both are also [[InstantExpert Instant Experts]] with every weapon they find. Bayonetta's Witch Time can be countered by Dante's Quicksilver, and Dante's Royal Guard is equal to Bayonetta's Moon of Mahaa-Kaala. The only thing this troper can say about the battle, if it happened, is that it would be '''''awesome'''''.
52	* Silly director. If they met, they wouldn't fight. [[{{Rule34}} They would fuck.]]
53	** And then summon a Dante made entirely of hair on the next enemy down the road.
54
55	[[WMG: Sooo...What's with the nun outfit?]]
56	* Seriously, why did she wear that? That's something I still haven't figured out.
57	** CrossingTheLineTwice?
58	** Because she likes the outfit.
59	** In-universe, probably a disguise.
60	*** When Enzo asks her, she says 'outfits' and 'toys', so she disguises according to the jobs, whatever they might be...
61	** She specifically says that it's cosplay. Jeanne says so too at the end of the game
62	* Actually, that really is her job in the Human World when she isn't killing Angels. Bloody Fate shows that it is her "Human" job, and there is art of her being a nun.
63	** And besides it actually beneficial for her too. In being a nun, she makes sure that Humans do abstract concepts affiliated to Paradiso. In doing so (according to the description of Urbane) she indirectly produces more Angels for herself to kill.
64	[[WMG: Is Bayonetta stupid? ]]
65	Don't get me wrong. I know she's a witch and all, and that she's some hundred years old when the game takes place, which should at least guarantee some degree of wisdom even with her amnesia. However, some people have taken their time [[http://www.gamefaqs.com/xbox360/946346-bayonetta/faqs/58989 translating all the demon and angel script found throughout the game]], and with it came some FridgeLogic. Anyway, the clock that Bayonetta carries everywhere (even since before she lost her memories) has engraved on it "UMBRA CEREZA 1411.12.19", which is obvious to anyone who played the game that it's her name and birthday. Given that she obviously remembers the demon script, or at least has re-learnt it after awakening, so she could have come to the same conclusion; however, she chose the name Bayonetta instead. But what really bugs me is that when Cereza says her name, Bayonetta doesn't even twitch, or have a flashback, or anything. She just casually asks "Cereza? You're not from Vigrid, are you, little one?" and the talk goes on. Why would she not suspect or even ask anything? Is "Cereza" that common of a name there? She even calls her mommy!
66	* It's "obvious" only when you already know that's her name. Most people would not be naive enough to assume that whatever word written on an object they are wearing must be their name. On the other hand, she clearly ''does'' suspect something is up with Cereza, since she's not the kind of person who would just pick up a tagalong kid for no reason.
67	** She could have also believed it to be the name of a relative, since sometimes you inherited things like that from relatives as a family heirloom.
68	*** This seems the most likely answer. Similar to how a man might give a woman jewelery with her name engraved upon it, and she hands it down to her daughter.
69
70	[[WMG:Fairness...yeah right]]
71	* This is probably intentional, but the enemy Fairness is the one with an attack that stuns from anywhere on the map, immediately followed up by either a fireball or a charge you can't avoid? Real fair alright.
72	** You can actually avoid the stun move by dodging while its happening. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if they gave an enemy named Fairness such cheap tactic on purpose.
73	*** After all, these 'angels' are anything but. Any GOOD reason for them snatching poor Enzo away? That was certainly not a rescue! A few others don't live up to their name either.
74	** That's the idea! [[FridgeBrilliance The angel names are ironic!]] The Joys aren't very joyful either, for example.
75	[[WMG:Shooting her lipstick?]]
76	* I have two issues. One, how did the lipstick even get shot without an explosive charge? Two, why use it instead of a bullet? I can't tell if RuleOfCool even applies here...
77	** Issue 1) [[AWizardDidIt A witch did it.]] Issue 2) Because it was there?
78	*** Her guns have BottomlessMagazines, there would need to be something special about her choice of ammo. I'm going with the theory that it's magic lipstick that makes for a more powerful shot.
79	*** Scratch that, I have found a guide that translates the angel&demon text through the game, and according to it there is writing on the lipstick:
80	--> BALDER & ROSA
81	--> 19.3.1394
82	--> WITH LOVE UNTIL THE END OF TIME
83	* Okay, now I'm certain that RuleOfCool applies! I am no longer bugged!
84	** 1) As mentioned above, [[AWizardDidIt A witch did it.]] and 2) To give a swift kick (so to speak) to Balder for (if he did) giving her mother that lipstick when all he meant to do is knock her up then kill her off.
85	*** And thus, Bayonetta's "Don't fuck with a witch!" line has a double meaning.
86	* Fridge Brilliance: he has a resistance to her magic bullets. Shooting the lipstick gives a physical projectile that isn't so easily affected by his powers.
87
88	[[WMG:When Bayonetta summons one of her hair monsters...]]
89	And said monster eats one of the {{MiniBoss}}es... Her clothes are made of the same hair the monster is, right? So... exactly where did the miniboss ''go?''
90	* Her hair just forms the portal and the medium for the demon to take form, but it's still the actual demon. So the demon eats the mini-boss and drags them through the portal to Inferno.
91	* To Purgatorio I figure.
92	** Purgatorio is where they are being dragged down into Inferno from.
93	* Her hair only summons and controls the demons. The miniboss goes back to Inferno in the belly of the demon when she unsummons it.
94
95	[[WMG:What's this "Very Easy Mode" for anyway?]]
96	Seriously, why did they need to make ''two easy modes''? The four other difficulties have their specificity, that makes them fun in their own way. Easy mode is, well, [[ExactlyWhatItSaysOnTheTin easy]] and a fine warming up for beginning players; in Normal your health no more regenerates, the enemies are bit more resilient and you meet [[BossInMookClothing Gracious and Glorious]]; in Hard enemy attacks are much faster, deal much more damage and canon fodder is frequently replaced by DemonicSpiders; [[HarderThanHard Non-Stop Infinite Climax]] removes Witch Time, forcing you to refine your dodging and countering skills.
97
98	But Very Easy mode? It's basically moreso compared to Easy… once you've beaten one, there is no point in doing the other, but you're forced to do it anyway since those empty squares in the chapter-scores board are an eyesore for any [[HundredPercentCompletion Hundred-purcent completionist]]. You can't even use it to unlock Jeanne or the Bangle of Time more easily, since it only works from Normal on. So does this thing have any other purpose than FakeLongevity?
99
100	* The most logical possibility would be to make it accessible to very inexperienced or new to the genre. Devil May cry has an automatic Easy Modes as well, unlocked by dying too often in the beginning. Here it is simply offered from the start without much EasyModeMockery. It can also be a better way to watch Bayonetta in action...
101
102	* It's just there to mock completionists.
103
104	* It's so you can play one handed. Seriously. You're other hand is then free for... other activities.
105
106	[[WMG:Why all this trouble in chapter 6?]]
107
108	* In chapter 6 you are forced to maim a couple of Affinities with a lightpole to protect Cereza. Since they are not in the same dimension you can't attack them with your weapons. Alright. But then 1)Why are they able to attack Bayonetta with their weapons but not the opposite? 2)Why doesn't Bayonetta go into their dimension as she did just before that? 3)If that's because they are in Paradiso, then why don't the angels ''stay'' in that dimension where she can do nothing to them while they can attack her?
109	** The Angels were in Pugatorio, which is where Bayonetta herself usually fights, while Bayonetta herself stayed in the human world with Cerezsa. Beings in Purgatorio can affect the normal world but not vice versa. My guess is that Bayonetta didn't want to pull Cerezsa into Purgatorio unless she had to, especially since when she did Cerezsa was nearly kidnapped by Joy.
110
111	[[WMG: How did a the humans in medieval Europe kill the Umbra Witches?]]
112	* Seriously, if Bayonetta and Jeanne are anything to go by, modern armies wouldn't have a chance against them. Did the Umbra just let themselves get killed because they had moral issues about killing humans?
113	** Divine intervention?
114	** Balder did help with the witch hunts.
115	** Two things. First Bayonetta and Jeanne are terrible examples to go by. One is a super powerful half breed and the other is implied to be a natural genius. They are in a class all their own. Judging from what we see from Cheshire and the fact that in nearly every fantasy setting ever humanity just goes down hill power wise after the Middle Ages my suspicion is you'd still be out of your league going one on one a group of heroes or an angry mob was probably a legit threat to a witch. It's also possible that all you had to do was find a witch and pray. Nothing seems to imply that Angels and Umbra have ever been anything but enemies and I can easily see even Joy being too much for an average witch.
116	*** One thing to note: Bayonetta is not a "half breed" as the powers of witches and sages are not passed on genetically.
117	*** The powers may come from their respective contracts but their talent for using those powers likely is genetic.
118	** Divine intervention. Balder was actively hunting down the witches and the angels were assisting with the hunts, as seen in a flashback when Bayonetta has to fend off Fortitudo after he slaughters several witches. Also makes sense that weaker Laguna are sent at Bayonetta initially not as cannon fodder, but because they're expected to be able to take her down.
119	** Also, the witches were very weak/tired from their battle with Lumen Sages.
120	** ''Bayonetta 2'' indicates that Paradiso launched a full scale invasion of Vigrid with all four Virtues in attendance. Presumably the angry mobs just finished off the weakened survivors.
121
122	[[WMG: Was the Head Umbran Witch Jeanne's mother?]]
123	* The Head umbran witch even stated that Jeanne was an heir, soooo.....
124	** Not necessarily, but quite possible as the leadership could have been passed down from mother to daughter. This begs the question, who is Jeanne's father?
125
126	[[WMG: How did the clans survive in the first place?]]
127	* While it is mentioned that an Umbra Witch and a Lumen sage must never have a child together, how did the clans procreate? Not a single male Umbra Witch or a female Lumen Sage is ever mentioned. It's like both clans are a OneGenderRace.
128	** You're right. The witches and the Sages can't procreate together, HOWEVER there isn't anything in their rules that say that a Witch/Sage can't intermingle with regular humans....
129	** According to Kamiya, there are male Umbra Witches and female Lumen Sages, but they’re just fairly rare. As said above, most Witches and Sages mate with normal humans, though.
130	** There is also the fact that Bayonetta herself was in a coma, for ''500 years'' and Jeanne was still alive and kicking after said 500, Witches and Sages don't die very often, not muhc need for procreation when your race has no natural lifespan anymore.
131
132	[[WMG: So, this game is a continuation of Devil May Cry? Well that raises some questions!]]
133	Okay, according to hints dropped in the game, such as how Eva created the Bangle of Time and was an Umbra Witch pledged to Sparda as well as how Enzo is apparently one of Dante's contacts plus the fact that Bayonetta's spider summon is the same species as Phantom, this game is unofficially set in the same world as Devil May Cry. So, just for a moment, let's assume that's true. Okay? Okay...
134
135	'''WHERE IN THE EVER LOVING FUCK WERE THE ANGELS WHEN MUNDUS WAS ATTACKING EARTH AND SPARDA TURNED TRAITOR?!''' Or did the Umbra Witches and Lumen Sages only come later?
136	* Presumably not giving a crap and just focusing on ways to resurrect their god. They do seem kind of leaderless and single minded about it.
137	** Plus, did you really think they'd stand a chance against ''[[OneManArmy The Legendary]] [[RedBaron Dark Knight]] [[BigGood Sparda]]''!? Facing a powerful demon god is bad enough(one who is the equivalent of {{Satan}}), but two!? The angels would have been lambs to the slaughter! Though it does raise a similar point. How come the angels never bothered going after Dante and Vergil when their parents died? You would think they would get a jump on that when the twins were kids or teenagers. Probably the same as the first explanation.
138	* It's more like an alternate reality where the point of separation happened when the worlds were formed, so there's a lot of similarities but also some very important differences. The "DmC" reboot would be anouther such alternate world, one where the setting is closer to Bayonetta's.
139
140	[[WMG: Umbra Boys]]
141	What happens to any boys the Umbra give birth to?
142	* The extremely rare boys born with Umbral powers are kept in the clan and the Muggles are probably sent to their father’s families or to maternal uncles.
143
144	[[WMG: If the Umbra Clock Tower is the Umbra Witch symbol...]]
145	What is the Lumen Sage symbol? I'm sure this answered in-game though.

Context Headscratchers / Bayonetta