| 1 | New entries on the bottom. |
| 2 | |
| 3 | [[foldercontrol]] |
| 4 | |
| 5 | [[folder:Felicity Drawing Ollie's Bow]] |
| 6 | * As someone who used to be big into archery, this bothers me. The kind of draw weight you have to have on a bow to pull off any of Ollie's various arrow-related stunts is enormous. There is NO WAY that in 01x14 Felicity should be able to effortlessly draw back the string on that bow. That's something a beginner does with a draw weight of 25lbs or less. Ollie's bow has to have a minimum of 60lbs draw weight, if not much more. She might be able to realistically move that string about 4-6 inches. No way would she be able to pull it almost all the way back unless Ollie was using his squirrel bow. |
| 7 | ** True, but, this is why we have ViewersAreMorons. Most viewers and most writers couldn't be expected to know so much about such a niche sport. |
| 8 | |
| 9 | [[/folder]] |
| 10 | |
| 11 | [[folder:Legality of Confessions]] |
| 12 | |
| 13 | * I'm no expert on this, and my knowledge of the show is limited, but wouldn't the confessions Oliver extracts be completely unusable in court? They are clearly extracted under torture or at least duress (Oliver usually shoots his targets to stop them from moving or just to intimidate them). |
| 14 | |
| 15 | ** The Arrow is not part of the government. He is not bound by the The Bill of Rights. It would be admissible, but the defense would be free to point out the problems with torture ( that the person will say whatever you want them to say). A rational jury would not convict on a confession based on torture. If, however, the torture included information only the perp could know, it might be a different story. |
| 16 | ** Additionally people often think that torture or other illegal means will throw out an entire case. It does not. What would happen in all likelihood with Arrow's moves (assuming a non corrupt police force who believes the confession) is they would seek legal evidence in direction they might not have looked otherwise. |
| 17 | [[/folder]] |
| 18 | |
| 19 | [[folder:Voice Changer]] |
| 20 | |
| 21 | * Why doesn't Oliver use his voice changer all the time? Pre-island, he was on the news all the time, and even more post-island, and on top of that, his parents confer with multiple businessmen and -women, so don't you think more of them would know his voice? |
| 22 | ** He does use it most of the time; in fact, I can't think of any time he didn't use it when talking to anyone. |
| 23 | ** Mostly true. However, early on, he didn't even use it when talking to Detective Lance (see ep.3 for example), y'know, ''his ex's (exes'?) father''. How Lance, who by this time had previously seen the Hood's chin, didn't make the connection at this point, is anyone's guess (yeah, I know, see ClarkKenting and all, but still.). As for why he doesn't have it turned on all the time, hey, he already loses enough time putting on the suit and that damn eye 'makeup, if he knows it's not necessary, that's a few seconds that can help [[BigDamnHeroes save someone's life.]] |
| 24 | ** An unshaven chin is hardly an uncommon characteristic. But, possibly FridgeBrilliance: Ollie wanted to leave small, unprovable breadcrumbs to make the police catch on, so he could then disprove them. He only did this around one officer, who had a personal vendetta against him, so it could be explained away by the police as Lance mis-remembering these details in order to convince himself that it was Oliver, as happens with real eye-witness testimony. |
| 25 | |
| 26 | [[/folder]] |
| 27 | |
| 28 | [[folder:Running out of arrows]] |
| 29 | |
| 30 | * In episode 13 "Betrayal", when Oliver attacks Cyrus's house to rescue Laurel, Cyrus manages to capture The Hood (briefly) by counting that The Hood has 24 arrows and darts, and hires 25 mooks so that the last surviving mook can do the capturing. However, in the scenes where Oliver's attacking the house, there are a few scenes where The Hood takes out mooks by hand and doesn't use his arrows/darts. So how is it that he runs out by the end? |
| 31 | ** Maybe Vanch took into account the places where the Hood was the most likely to take out mooks in hand-to-hand and put a few extra mooks around the house. Also, he used at least two arrows that didn't connect with a mook (an explosive arrow to distract the snipers, and a flechette that was dodged) |
| 32 | ** What I'm wondering is how Vanch even knew the exact number of arrows and darts Oliver carried in the first place. It's like the writers got archery quivers mixed up with revolver cylinders. |
| 33 | ** He just went over the data on the old crime scenes and counted how many arrows he had ever used max. |
| 34 | ** That's incredibly poor evidence. Even assuming he could get that information, it doesn't remotely follow that if the Arrow has never shot more than 24 arrows that he only ever carries 24 arrows. |
| 35 | |
| 36 | [[/folder]] |
| 37 | |
| 38 | [[folder:Yao Fei]] |
| 39 | |
| 40 | * Why is Ollie's mentor called Yao Fei? In the comics Yao Fei is the alias of Accomplished Perfect Physician of the Great Ten, a character with various psychic abilities and no known archery skills. If the Byron Mann character was named Xu Tao, he'd be the equivalent of Celestial Archer from the same team, which would make more sense. |
| 41 | ** Maybe they named him Accomplished Perfect Physician for his ability to whip up a miracle cure-all out of island vegetation? And then they needed someone to teach Ollie archery anyway, so they just decided to combine the two attributes. |
| 42 | ** It's possible Yao Fei isn't an expert archer, but just a decent one, and that Ollie learned expert archery from someone else, like [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shado_(DC_Comics) Shado]] |
| 43 | ** "The Odyssey" reveals that Shado is Arrow!Yao Fei's daughter. |
| 44 | |
| 45 | [[/folder]] |
| 46 | |
| 47 | [[folder:Ollie proving not to be the Arrow]] |
| 48 | |
| 49 | * Ollie's BatmanGambit to exonerate himself from suspicion as the Hood is pretty thin. Nobody even suspects that someone as rich as Oliver Queen could hire or recruit an accomplice to make an appearance and give him an alibi? A detective as driven and antagonistic as Quentin Lance wouldn't explain that away? |
| 50 | ** Well, Ollie was already arrested on ''really'' thin charges. They had no proof, and he had an excuse for the footage they found of him. It was a lame excuse, but one that they couldn't prove false. So, once another Hood showed up, I guess they felt they ''had'' to let him go. Detective Lance was probably still suspicious, but he couldn't keep Ollie detained on his own suspicions. |
| 51 | ** And even if they suspected there might be an accomplice, they'd need proof of ''that'' too. Perhaps the most important part though is the idea of double jeopardy - by forcing them to arrest him on charges of vigilantism, this means unless the police can somehow come up with different charges or a charge of vigilantism that's different enough from the previous one, Ollie ''can't'' be arrested at all for that any more. |
| 52 | ** Double Jeopardy doesn't work that way. There are still plenty of cases of Vigilantism he has already committed that he can be charged with outside of that incident once they actually manage to prove its him. All Ollie really did was throw suspicion off himself. |
| 53 | ** Legal jeopardy only attaches when evidence is presented to a jury at trial and even then not always (in the US, at least). The only limitation to an investigation is that the police have to abide by the rules of evidence for anything they intend to present at trial and they can't violate your civil rights doing it. Realistically, the police should have simply backed off and kept watching Oliver until they accumulated more evidence. |
| 54 | ** It could be that Detective Lance's judgement was really clouded at the time, as Laurel had accused him of in that same episode. Though his suspicions of Oliver was correct, his bias could've made him jump the gun and act too soon. |
| 55 | |
| 56 | [[/folder]] |
| 57 | |
| 58 | [[folder:Names in the List]] |
| 59 | |
| 60 | * If Malcolm Merlyn is the head of the conspiracy, or at least very high ranking in it, how come his name isn't in the book? I would assume that in five years Ollie would have read, if not memorized the entire thing, yet in "Dead to Rights" he leaps in to save him without any hesitation or even acknowledgement of Merlyn being on the list. He HAS to be on the list, but clearly he isn't or else Ollie would've brought that up by now, at the very least in this episode. |
| 61 | ** We still don't know very much about the conspiracy, or about the List. How do we know Malcolm didn't ''write'' the thing? |
| 62 | ** Also, Ollie burnt a few pages of the List to keep himself warm on the island, before he discovered the names on it, he might have burnt one where Malcolm's name appeared. |
| 63 | ** Even if he burnt any pages, he has a full copy he got from Felicity who got it from Walter. |
| 64 | ** That one ended up burnt too, thank you Moira. Dunno if Ollie had the sense to make a copy before talking to his mother. |
| 65 | ** Unlikely since he probably didn't think his mother would chuck it into the fire. Though that said, he may have written them into his computer system for easy reference. |
| 66 | ** More to the point, given that Moira also had a copy, and that the list was not written by his father, it seems likely that the list only includes people who were necessary to the Undertaking in some way, but were not the ringleaders. |
| 67 | ** The most recent episode shows that the Undertaking made the list as part of their original plan to save the city so their names would not be in it. Just names of those they were blackmailing because they were the city's worst, they were using those names to fund betterment projects for the city namely, the Glades. That was Plan 1.0, Plan 2.0 was nuke the Glades. The only reason Malcolm was worried about the Vigilante going after people from Plan 1.0 is that eventually, just like he did, he would stumble upon Plan 2.0. |
| 68 | |
| 69 | [[/folder]] |
| 70 | |
| 71 | [[folder:Mob Tattoo]] |
| 72 | |
| 73 | * You don't get to captain of the Russian Mafia by being Mr. Hugs-N-Cuddles, and Ollie's injuries were well-documented. Wouldn't his having ''mob tattoos'' raise at least a couple of red flags? |
| 74 | ** One would imagine so. Perhaps this is why police suspicion fell on him to begin with. Once they realized he wasn't interacting with the Russians all that much (he does so twice in the first season and both times, it's mostly just talking), they might write it off as a rich kid doing stupid things to get a rush but nothing inherently illegal. |
| 75 | ** You're assuming that what a Russian Mafia tattoo looks like is public knowledge. |
| 76 | ** True. The only people who knew his physical condition at all were his physician and his family. While his mother may be aware of some details of the Russian mafia, she probably didn't know what their tattoos look like. The Doctor would likely assume they're merely tribal tattoos or tattoos he already had before the island rather than anything gang-related. The police likely didn't know much detail on his scars besides the fact he had some. Even if someone in law recognized he had a Russian Mafia tat, they would't think he was a high ranking member (as noted in series, its surprising that an American would be so high ranking in such). |
| 77 | ** Yeah, I'm calling snark on Laurel, she knew very well that Pre-island Oliver didn't have tattoos and she's seen his chest. With all of its scars. How the hell did she think her ex got tattoos? Even if there were tribal people there, those tattoos are not simple designs. He's got a freaking dragon on his back. |
| 78 | ** By the time Laurel saw his tattoos, she knew that he wasn't alone on the island (he admitted it during the polygraph). So that explains quite well ''how'' he got them, though still not why. He's made it quite clear he doesn't want to talk about it, though, and she's generally good about respecting his space on the issue. |
| 79 | |
| 80 | [[/folder]] |
| 81 | |
| 82 | [[folder:Slapping Water]] |
| 83 | |
| 84 | * How did slapping water help him draw a bow? |
| 85 | ** The technique is actually used in Real Life by Shaolin Monks to hit harder in a fight. Since it's an explosive move, it would improve Island!Ollie's explosive strength, and strength in general. Only way it makes even some slight sense. If I were Shado, I would have reinforced Ollie via good ol' pullups and pushups (since you have to pull the string and push the bow, actual archery experts can correct me), but I guess the point was to give a more Oriental flavor to the training. |
| 86 | ** It also had the benefit of being a relatively simple exercise that didn't require much strength to begin with but would build up strength quickly. |
| 87 | |
| 88 | [[/folder]] |
| 89 | |
| 90 | [[folder:141 code]] |
| 91 | |
| 92 | * For a tech savvy guy like Ollie, why is the code to his hidden lair 141? |
| 93 | ** Maybe he likes the number? |
| 94 | ** ThePasswordIsAlwaysSwordfish |
| 95 | ** Rewatching the pilot, I realized that the number of the bank account Arrow gave to Adam Hunt was 1141 (very close to the lair's code). One Googling later, I saw that Green Arrow's first appearance was in November 1941. I also found a few other interesting things, which might give a more symbolic meaning to the number and might be explained during island flashbacks for the in-story explanation, but for now I'd just roll with "Ollie's first appearance ever". |
| 96 | ** It could be Ollie's Mantra as an archer. One arrow, One Target. Each shot fired will be 1 for 1 (1/1). |
| 97 | |
| 98 | [[/folder]] |
| 99 | |
| 100 | [[folder:China White's wig]] |
| 101 | * How did China White's wig cover her white hair? It should require a bald cap or something similar, but in this case, it's just a wig, and no bald cap is seen... |
| 102 | ** Perhaps the wig is designed with a baldcap, or something similar, built into it. |
| 103 | ** Just rewatched it. There could ''possibly'' be a bald cap attached to the wig, but from what I see, it doesn't look big enough. |
| 104 | ** Maybe it isn't a wig. It's probably (in-show; that's Kelly Hu's real hair, obviously) some form of dye that can easily be wiped out, and that's how she manages to lose it so easily. |
| 105 | ** No, we see her holding it in her hand. It's definitely a wig. |
| 106 | |
| 107 | [[/folder]] |
| 108 | |
| 109 | [[folder:Eyepatch and Implant]] |
| 110 | * Why is Deadshot wearing his EyepatchOfPower on his dead eye? It's not shown to be some sort of implant, so how is he even using it? |
| 111 | ** Maybe the eyepatch projects something that gives his one good eye depth perception? |
| 112 | ** Wait... what? If it projects something, he could just attach it to his guns. |
| 113 | ** Actually, I got the impression that it ''was'' an implant of some sort. |
| 114 | ** When he fights Dig, it isn't glowing, so either he turned it off or he detached it. Due to how this show goes for realism, I doubt it's as easy as taking out and putting it in on a whim (it would have to be attached to his brain in order for him to make use of it). He could maybe have been wearing an eyepatch over it, but since Dig clearly punches him in that eye, even if it was an implant, that should have done something, but Deadshot barely reacts to it, and a fresh implant being punched would, I assume, hurt like hell. |
| 115 | ** Well at that point, its not really fresh, but it would probably still hurt. Best guess? The implant itself hurts a lot and he's taking pain meds of some kind to shrug that off, which also explains why he doesn't appear to be in much pain despite Dig giving him a good beating during their scuffle. |
| 116 | ** Maybe he's just wearing it to look badass? |
| 117 | |
| 118 | [[/folder]] |
| 119 | |
| 120 | [[folder:Laurel's honesty versus Thea]] |
| 121 | * Ollie talking to Laurel: "Nobody in my life is who I thought they were, except you." What's Thea? Chopped liver? |
| 122 | ** IIRC, in one of the early episodes, he's pretty disapproving of Thea's clubbing and drugging habits. She later explains that she does that kind of thing to imitate him. So, perhaps he didn't believe Thea was that kind of person, at least until he got back from the island. |
| 123 | ** That said, she didn't get revealed to be a backstabbing, family-kidnapping, Glades-wrecking member of a conspiracy. |
| 124 | ** But she was still hiding her true self. |
| 125 | ** Kinda small potatoes, TBH. |
| 126 | ** But there is also Tommy, who didn't change at all. He just doesn't approve of Oliver's "hobby". To me this is just one of those lines writers put in to pretend that a character is somehow special in one way or another. |
| 127 | ** Thea going from a 12 year old innocent good kid to a 17 year old snarky, drug using liar would be a huge change for a big brother, Tommy, his best friend didn't even let him explain himself after he saved his father's life before he wrote him off. He assumed he was an evil murderer with no cause for what he did. Mind you, Oliver didn't explain, but you expect your best friend to go "Hold on, we need to talk about this and you need to tell me everything." I think it's more the fact he just wrote him off as a murderer without trying to find out why Oliver was doing what he was doing. |
| 128 | |
| 129 | [[/folder]] |
| 130 | |
| 131 | [[folder:Laurel knowing Ollie]] |
| 132 | |
| 133 | * On a similar note, Ollie talking to Laurel: "You know me better than anyone." Yeah ok. Better than anyone apart from Diggle who knows about the hell you went through on the island. Or Felicity who is part of your top-secret, super-hero, secret-identity team. Or Tommy who knows about your killing sprees... Actually does Laurel know ''anything'' about you? |
| 134 | ** Above explanation; it was just some sappy line he thought he'd say to sound romantic. Ollie's already shown he's terrible with this stuff so he probably recited something that sounded good on TV. |
| 135 | ** And in the Season 2 finale, Laurel tells Ollie she knows "who he is in his bones/like she knows her own name." Okay, this is against two seasons where she flips flops from hating to loving Oliver depending on individual episodes and has stated repeatedly he could never, ever be the Arrow. (Because the Arrow is too good or evil to be him, again depending on her opinion in particular episodes). And apart from Thea, she's the last of anyone he cares about to find out about his secret identity. (To date: Diggle, Felicity, Helena, Tommy, Sara, Roy and Moira ''all'' found out his identity before her. And either they figured it out or Oliver ''chose'' to tell them the truth, rather than having it given away by his enemy). I'm kind of confused about what basis Laurel has for claiming to know his so well. Did she take the line off the TV as well? You think she'd be a better speaker than Oliver. |
| 136 | ** I think that's taking it too literal. They both meant that she has an understanding of his personality only, but that doesn't mean she will guess all of his actions, especially when he is actively trying to prevent it. She almost found out he was the Arrow on her own in Season 1 because of the polygraph test. He purposefully steers her away from that train of thought by saying that the island didn't change him into a better person, to keep her at arms length. She knows he has the heart to be a hero (she lies to him in court but it is later clear that she is conflicted about that with the polygraph confrontation scene). Later, when he decides he can hang up being the Arrow to be with her, he still doesn't tell her but says that the island made her into the person she always saw him as - not in terms of actions but in terms of personality, just like how she says she knows him well enough to know he would never hurt Thea by committing suicide because she sees that hero potential. |
| 137 | |
| 138 | [[/folder]] |
| 139 | |
| 140 | [[folder:Identity and the DA]] |
| 141 | |
| 142 | * Rewatching "Salvation", I was wondering: how did Ollie expect to hide his identity when saving the corrupt DA, assuming he found him before Falk killed him? From the looks of it, he couldn't shut down the lights and didn't keep his helmet on him, so... |
| 143 | ** Maybe Oliver wasn't thinking that far ahead? Or maybe he was thinking that, if he got there, he could shut off the camera and then take the guy out and free the DA. |
| 144 | ** Shutting off the camera would take care of the audience, Falk would probably fall under the "nobody can know my secret" policy, that doesn't take care of the DA. |
| 145 | ** If I recall correctly, Oliver didn't even have his bow with him, so he could've chalked it up (however flimsily) to his being at the right place at the right time. |
| 146 | |
| 147 | [[/folder]] |
| 148 | |
| 149 | [[folder:Shooting down planes for economic reasons]] |
| 150 | * The whole plan to take down airplanes to hurt the economy of China. Most goods are still transported by ship, not by airplane (for obvious reasons). Never mind that China is not an island, they are really not dependent on airplanes. It certainly would be a problem, but I really don't see it having such a big impact as they pretend it to be. |
| 151 | ** Fear goes a long way. In real life 9/11 kicked off a (mild albeit) recession in the US. I can easily see how taking down a few important planes, say with World Leaders perhaps even the Chinese leader on it could be problematic. |
| 152 | ** Apart from the fact that it would be fairly easy to track where the missile came from, there was also going to be a video of Yao Fe admitting responsibility as revenge for being sent to the island. So in real life there would have been a Chinese airstrike on the way to Lian Yu within a matter of hours of the first plane being shot down and then Fyers, all his men and his missile launcher would be dust. It was a ridiculous plan, but I suspect it was meant to be so and Fyers was merely a pawn being used in a bigger agenda. |
| 153 | ** Plus, in Season 3 we learn that Fyers was kept in the dark; the true reason to shoot down the plane was simply to kill one specific passenger. |
| 154 | ** Or so Waller claimed. Given the resources needed to fund and supply Fyers mercenary army for over a year, it seems a lot of effort to kill one person, when she could just get a former terrorist on the Suicide Squad to plant a bomb on the plane. General Shrieve's objective of destroying China's economy with the Omega virus seems suspiciously similar. An AlternateCharacterInterpretation would be that Waller and Shrieve were in cahoots all along, only to have a [[NoHonorAmongThieves falling out at the last minute.]] |
| 155 | [[/folder]] |
| 156 | |
| 157 | [[folder:Tommy's mother's message]] |
| 158 | |
| 159 | * The dying message of Tommy's mother...so, I'm lying in the gutter, dying, and nobody comes to help me. But I still have my phone. I get redialling the last number I used first, but I would I keep dealing it if I only end up at voice message instead of simply punching 911? I don't think so. |
| 160 | ** Who's to say she didn't call 911, and they just took their sweet time getting there? There's places in real life that paramedics and police officers don't touch out of fear of the locals, and the Glades could easily be like one of them. |
| 161 | ** Bear in mind that if she called 911 (likely), it still takes time for an ambulance to get there no matter how much they want to be there ASAP. Unless one was basically around the corner, a wait of 15 minutes wouldn't be unusual. Probably once she realized she might not have enough time left, she started calling. |
| 162 | |
| 163 | [[/folder]] |
| 164 | |
| 165 | [[folder:Thea's living situation]] |
| 166 | |
| 167 | * Where the hell has Thea been living? Diggle said that she hasn't been living in the Queen mansion. So, she's been living with Roy. Except there's a 50/50 shot his place was destroyed in the Undertaking. So they both moved into Verdant. But then how did Felicity renovate the lair without them noticing? |
| 168 | ** Its entirely possible the family either owns an apartment in the city or Thea bought one or had Walter buy one for her. Or she could have been staying with him or Laurel. |
| 169 | ** Apparently she spends most of her nights sleeping at Roy's according to 2X05. |
| 170 | |
| 171 | [[/folder]] |
| 172 | |
| 173 | [[folder:Thea and the Arrowcave]] |
| 174 | |
| 175 | * A little more added on to the "How does Thea not notice the Arrowcave?" thing. I can almost forgive her not going into the basement since the door was locked, she might have decided it wasn't worth the trouble. However, considering she is managing a bar on top of it, some clues should be sneaking through. For example, Felicity's computer equipment probably has high energy requirements, shouldn't she notice that her electricity bill is way too high? Even if she is some spoiled little rich girl whose concept of money is a little different than that of the average person, shouldn't she notice '''something''' eventually? |
| 176 | ** Felicity's computer equipment probably doesn't have particularly high energy requirements at all. It's not exactly a super computer and there's at least one computer if not more on site for keeping track of payroll, inventory and the like. AC and/or Heating would make it nearly impossible to catch something as small as a few computers added to a bill. We don't really know what other equipment is down there or how often it's running. Eventually can also be a very long time. |
| 177 | ** A better question might how many possible entrances are there to the Arrowcave? Has Thea never noticed Oliver and entourage either coming in and vanishing for hours on end or just kind of magically leaving when they'd never come in? A lot of this is easy to explain though if you accept that she's still distraught over Tommy's death, her mother's trial, finding out [[spoiler: Her father is Malcolm Merlyn]], getting kidnapped,[[spoiler:the death of her mother]] and all her drama with Roy one could forgive her for not noticing that her bills were roughly the same as they always were. Remember electric bills don't come with itemization and the Arrowcave was there before Thea became the owner. |
| 178 | ** There's a throwaway line in season one where Oliver mentions to Diggle that he had a side entrance installed. [[SarcasticConfession Later he even jokes to Thea about it!]] |
| 179 | |
| 180 | [[/folder]] |
| 181 | |
| 182 | [[folder:Verdant Popularity]] |
| 183 | |
| 184 | * Why is Verdant still a popular nightclub? It's known to be owned by Ollie and Thea and clearly the city isn't drawing a distinction between them and their mother as evidenced by the reception Ollie got at the hospital, so why are people still going there night after night? |
| 185 | ** Probably because the young club going set doesn't really care who's providing their booze, so long as they're having a good time. |
| 186 | |
| 187 | [[/folder]] |
| 188 | |
| 189 | [[folder:"Trump Card"]] |
| 190 | |
| 191 | * The Prosecution has to turn over all of it evidence in every state. So the ADA's "Trump Card" doesn't work, because if he didn't give it to the defense the charges would probably be dismissed. Oh, and coercion is not a legal defense for murder. |
| 192 | ** Umm, yes it is. It's called acting under duress, and while it's not one of the more popular defenses due to the intense grey area it creates, it can be very effective. |
| 193 | ** You can use duress for a excuse a number of things just murder in a court of law. here's the relevant quote from Wikipedia "However, duress is not a complete defense to all crimes. For example, the general rule, both at common law and today, is that duress is never a defense to murder; that is, one is never justified in killing another innocent person even if one's own life has been threatened." and the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duress |
| 194 | ** Considering that she is probably only being charged with everything because Malcolm Merlyn is "dead" and that she had not touched the device that caused the large amount of death, and she tried to warn the public, duress is probably a viable option and probably the only defense in this kind of scenario. |
| 195 | ** She did only aid Malcolm Merlyn, the plan wasn't her own and she tried to warn the Glades. If Malcolm was alive, she probably would have been charged with collusion and some other things, but not outright murder. |
| 196 | |
| 197 | [[/folder]] |
| 198 | |
| 199 | [[folder:The Count's reaction to Vertigo]] |
| 200 | |
| 201 | * How is the Count not an incoherent mess capable only of babbling out word salad? |
| 202 | ** It's mentioned that he overcame his overdose at some point--which is why he was transferred from the mental hospital to Iron Heights Prison. |
| 203 | ** Also, part of his condition at the mental hospital may have been due to overmedicating as his doctor was using his kidneys as a How to Make Vertigo for Dummies guide. It's possible he came out of his overdose a while ago, and it just wasn't obvious because of what his doctor was giving him. |
| 204 | |
| 205 | [[/folder]] |
| 206 | |
| 207 | [[folder:Quentin, Sara, and the Arrow]] |
| 208 | |
| 209 | * Quentin Lance - so you find out that your long dead daughter is alive, but has become a one woman army after being saved from the Queen's Gambit. Check. You also know that the Vigilante, the Arrow, is an ally of your daughter's. Check. You also know the Arrow has at least one accomplice. Check. You know that accomplice works at Queen Consolidated. Check. That accomplice has also skyrocketed from the IT department to Executive Assistant to one Oliver Queen. Check. How the hell have you not revisited the fact that Oliver Queen could be the Vigilante? Your daughter returned from her five year excursion weaponized, she was on the same shipwreck as Oliver Queen, Oliver Queen was once arrested for being the Arrow nee Hood. You know the Arrow has at least one accomplice, why not more? Oliver Queen disappears for five months, The Arrow disappeared for five months. Oliver Queen came back, the Arrow came back. Come on, Lance, you are killing me. |
| 210 | ** Original Poster - I should clarify. I do not expect Lance to arrest Oliver, what I expect his for him to work with the information he has to come to an obvious conclusion. He's already been busted down to beat cop, confronting Oliver about being the Arrow is not going to kill him, he's already doing the denial thing even working with the Arrow. At this point, knowing his actual identity would probably help Lance more than hurt him. Especially since he's dealing with Oliver better as well as the Arrow. Knowing that Oliver Queen is the Arrow would clarify a bunch for Lance including what it cost him to stop the Undertaking, etc. etc. My issue isn't that he hasn't arrested him, but that he hasn't ''figured it out.'' Especially, since he was so dead on as a detective when he had his shield. He didn't fall for the Copycat Archer thing for a second, even though he didn't even ''like'' the Hood. Also going to sign replies/rebuttals as OP because the indentations aren't working for some of the in line sections and it looks a bit confusing at some points. |
| 211 | ** At this point, it's likely that he no longer ''wants'' to know, since he's working ''with'' the Arrow. Like Commissioner Gordon's "I can't see anything without my glasses" bit. Plausible deniability and all that. Now, why other people don't figure it out is a fair question. |
| 212 | ** Don't forget both him and Diggle were running into a building together (well, Diggle was a bit behind him, but still) and while he didn't directly look at him, he seemed to be aware he was there and he was helping, and Diggle didn't wear a mask. Not to mention that the very thing that happened to Sara-returned from seeming death now a killing machine, is the exact thing he guessed happened to Oliver. And then there's the Arrow always keeping Laurel safe, and Roy working for him while dating Ollie's sister. And THEN there's Ollie's connection to Malcolm Merlyn, who also used arrows. Seriously, he must have figured it out by now and is just being quiet about it. |
| 213 | ** Diggle was actually far enough behind him not to be spotted, but it was stupid of all of them to put him that close to the situation. I just want Lance to be a detective and freakin' detect. ~~~O.P. |
| 214 | ** Detective Lance probably just doesn't want to know and even if he did most of his evidence isn't solid enough to bring to his boss. In order. |
| 215 | ** Both your daughter and Oliver survived the Queen's Gambit. Except his daughter is still legally dead and officially out of the picture. So he can't reveal that without causing damage to himself. Their "alliance" might also have been more about protecting Laurel than a genuine alliance anyway but either way it can't be presented. |
| 216 | ** I'm not talking about having Oliver arrested because obvious Lance is pro-Arrow, I'm talking about the fact that he hasn't figured out his identity yet. Or if he has, hasn't confronted him with it. ~~~O.P. |
| 217 | ** Oliver, a young man, comes back from a five year ship wreck on an island and magically promotes an extremely attractive young woman who's obviously attracted to him to be his personal assistant. It looks "suspicious" sure, but because the obvious answer is she's getting shafted not that he's the Arrow/Hood/Vigilante |
| 218 | ** He's met with and dealt with Felicity Smoak - Felicity who was brave enough to speak out on The Hood's behalf even though she knew it was probably going to be linking her with him. She also helped him defuse a man made earthquake machine, outing herself as working with the vigilante, because helping save the Glades was worth more to her than the possibility of arrest. Lance, who has a daughter who dated Oliver Queen is pretty good at warning women to ''stay away from Oliver Queen.'' Knowing her intellect level and her personality, do you honestly think Lance thinks she slept her way to the top? ~~~O.P. |
| 219 | ** It's not about what Lance thinks its about what he can convince a jury is undeniably true. If he can't do that and has no interest in doing so even if he could why would he bother? |
| 220 | ** Oliver was once arrested for being the Hood. Then the Hood made an appearance on the other side of town while he was in custody. Even now the Queen family is sufficiently powerful that picking Oliver up on such flimsy evidence probably isn't a good idea. |
| 221 | ** I'm not talking about arresting him, I'm talking about acknowledging facts and coming to a conclusion. ~~~O.P. |
| 222 | ** Oliver goes missing. During this time period plenty of copycats arrive which presumably the Police have a hard time telling from the original in many cases. The only reason they even suspected the Dark Archer and Green Arrow were separate characters was because GA had dialed back on killing people at that exact time. |
| 223 | ** Nope, Lance specifically asked Felicity in City of Heroes, "Have you heard from our mutual friend?", meaning he knows Arrow was gone/inactive, or that the copycats were copycats. ~~~O.P. |
| 224 | ** It's very likely that he doesn't really feel the need to confront Oliver about being the Arrow, even if he knows (which does seem likely to me), confronting Oliver about it would probably just cause a rift to form between them, and then Oliver would be less inclined to trust Quentin's word or actions. |
| 225 | ** I think this was finally explained away near the end of the season (forgot which episode specifically) where he tells Laurel NOT to tell him who the Arrow is, because he wants to keep the idea that the Arrow is a mysterious, benevolent symbol of hope to the city rather than just a guy in a mask. He doesn't want to know who he is so he's likely consciously ignoring the evidence; its entirely possible he's figured it out and is being a SecretSecretKeeper [[spoiler: like Moira was]] because its easier for him to have his suspicions but not know for sure than it is for him to know for definite so he has some degree of PlausibleDeniability. |
| 226 | |
| 227 | [[/folder]] |
| 228 | |
| 229 | [[folder:Prototype]] |
| 230 | * So, there was a prototype earthquake machine just sitting in Malcolm Merlyn's ''garage''? How could the cops not be aware of this? Why didn't they search his house and seize it after he was proven to have murdered hundreds of people? Why did Malcolm have to go through everything he went through in season one if he already had an apparently functional version of his machine? Why didn't he hide it better? |
| 231 | ** Most likely, this is the one he got from the scientists, and the two he used were produced by his own expense based on this one. As for the fact the police didn't seize it after he died, its possible the WMG that Malcolm had some cops on payroll is true and he had them cover it, or possibly it was hidden really well, given Turner had to go after Merlyn's architect to find it in the first place, |
| 232 | |
| 233 | [[/folder]] |
| 234 | |
| 235 | [[folder:Grabbing the bow first]] |
| 236 | |
| 237 | * Whenever Ollie "hoods up", the first thing he does is picking up his bow. Wouldn't it make more sense to, say, change his clothes first? Bulky weapons are usually the last thing you pick up when getting into your battle gear. |
| 238 | ** RuleOfCool. It just looks rather cool to see him grab his bow. Its also possible he's just grabbing it to move it closer to his suit, so he can grab it quicker once he's suited up. Then, of course, he's also usually stood closer to his bow than his suit when he hears something that requires a few arrows to a few knees. |
| 239 | |
| 240 | [[/folder]] |
| 241 | |
| 242 | [[folder:Ollie and the reveal about Thea]] |
| 243 | |
| 244 | * Why is Ollie throwing such a strop over [[spoiler:finding out Thea has Malcolm Merlyn for a father?]] He's usually a lot more level-headed like that and given the shades of grey he's embraced over the time he's been stranded, it's a little odd for a BlackAndWhiteMorality to start appearing. |
| 245 | ** It's not so much BlackAndWhiteMorality, as its his mother told him that there were no ore secrets. He's annoyed that she continues to hide little details and lie about them (and while he does that too, being a bit of a hypocrite concerning this stuff is an acknowledged flaw in his character, one he's called on more than once). Its also possible he's annoyed that, thanks to this, if Thea should find it it would destroy her, so its his protectiveness over Thea kicking in. He's also possibly annoyed that she tried to blackmail/threaten Felicity into staying quiet about it, especially after seeing how much turmoil it caused her to do so. |
| 246 | ** Also a huge point - ''Oliver does not know Malcolm Merlyn is still alive.'' To Oliver, Moira is lying just because she doesn't want to admit the truth. Oliver's totally justified in being upset with his mother over how she treated Felicity (if he knew or figured out how it all went down, we don't know exactly what Felicity told him) but for the most part Moira ''was'' actually protecting Thea. However the problem is the manner of the whole thing. To Oliver, Malcolm is no longer a threat, so Moira could have come to him and explained the situation and they could have dealt with it as a family. Instead, she began a mayoral campaign, paid off the doctor and threatened Felicity (who's already been abandoned once). She knew that this could pop up and still went for being the mayor instead of staying out of the limelight to protect Thea which means she wasn't really thinking about Thea or the consequences of her actions. Also, by not telling Oliver, she's added another lie on top of his vast empire of lies. She knew that Oliver and Thea were beginning to trust her again, but she gambled on the fact that she could get what she wanted without anyone being the wiser. It's more of the fact that she's using her old ways to solve new problems when she promised both Oliver and Thea that that part of her life was over. |
| 247 | |
| 248 | [[/folder]] |
| 249 | |
| 250 | [[folder:Laurel and Sara]] |
| 251 | |
| 252 | * And Laurel's [[spoiler:vindictiveness over finding Sara is still alive?]] That just doesn't sit right, for some reason. |
| 253 | ** Why? Remember, Sara was sleeping with her boyfriend before she 'died', and when Ollie returned, she was pissed at him at first over it. She may have forgiven Oliver for what he did, but he's been there with her and earned her forgiveness, which Sara, to her, is yet to do. Then there's the fact that, as noted by her, Sara is, unintentionally, the one to blame for a lot of the bad things that happened to Laurel in the past few years, including putting them in the cross-hairs of some assassins. |
| 254 | ** I suspect she wouldn't be in that mental state half as much if she hadn't just lost her job and has been and is being under threat of disbarment for something unrelated. Did you notice she went right back to hitting the bottle as soon as she realized [[spoiler: Sara was alive]]? |
| 255 | ** Laurel is in the throes of addiction right now. Remember, she was happy to see Sara when she thought she was dead, but as soon as she found out that she was alive, she flipped out. It ''is'' justified that she be upset about the whole cheating thing (and Sara apologized), but she's already forgiven Oliver, so in this case it's mostly her using Sara as a scapegoat so she can say "My problems are all ''your'' fault." whether it's true or not. She didn't even bother to find out what kept Sara away before laying her entire sordid drama on her doorstep. While Sara's "death" was traumatic it didn't ruin Laurel's life - she was a successful pro bono lawyer for years, then worked as a D.A., had a boyfriend who loved her and a father who was getting his act together. These are all things she accomplished with Sara being "dead." Her life started falling apart well before Sara was in her picture. This is why she does a bit of an end run, blaming Sara for her parents' divorce and her dad's drinking saying "Not only did you ruin my life but our parents' too." Right now, Laurel's taking the easy way out by blaming the most available target (a bit like she did with Thea and Oliver in "Tremors"). |
| 256 | ** Indeed, she is taking the easy way out; as of "Time of Death", Oliver has furiously called her out on it, and she's trying to make amends. |
| 257 | |
| 258 | [[/folder]] |
| 259 | |
| 260 | [[folder:Mayoral candidate]] |
| 261 | |
| 262 | * So does anyone else find [[spoiler: Moira's]] supposed credibility as a mayoral candidate a bit far-fetched/bewildering? Blood has seemingly trounced every opponent put up against him so their response is to put forward [[spoiler: the woman partially responsible for the destruction of a significant portion of the city]]? [[spoiler:Her acquittal]] is likely found very hard to swallow by a lot of ordinary citizens so would this not merely push a lot of undecideds into voting for Blood simply to avoid voting for [[spoiler: Moira]]? Frankly the "a lot of people identify with your [[spoiler: mother wolf defending her cubs]]" spiel being repeatedly used comes off as very forced. Heck all of [[spoiler: her]] backers coming from the very wealthy echelons of Starling would make it even more difficult to cultivate a common touch. The whole thing comes across as very hard to believe. |
| 263 | ** Blood hasn't trounced anybody yet. He got elected to alderman, a low level position, so far. And probably with help from his backer. The previous Mayor's death opened the field up a lot-so its likely Blood wouldn't have won had he run against the incumbent. Also, I don't find his opponent's candidacy any harder to swallow than a 19 year old mayor, or Jesse Ventura being elected-which you know, happened in the real world, to say nothing of a TV show based on comic books. |
| 264 | ** Jesse Ventura wasn't part of a class warfare terrorist plot that leveled a large section of the city and killed hundreds of people. |
| 265 | ** That is what they want you to think. |
| 266 | ** How many politicians are there IRL that have done something ethically, morally, or legally wrong and come back from it as a viable candidate? Politicians have amazing spin doctors that excel at saying "Yes that happened, now let's let that fade into the background. Look how wonderful So & So is, elect So & So for office, So & So is on YOUR side!" |
| 267 | ** "So & so" is rarely put on trial for the murder of 500 people weeks before announcing his or her mayoral candidacy. |
| 268 | ** Problem is she was most likely just being used as a scape goat for what happened in the glades. She never touched the device that killed all those people and went so far to warn the city about it. With Malcolm Merlyn "dead" all the charges were pinned onto her. She probably just seems like the most pragmatic choice. |
| 269 | ** A couple of things need to be cleared up. First, when they said Blood "trounced" all the other candidates they were talking about ''focus group polls'', not actual election results. As mentioned above, Blood is merely an alderman who's gotten an unusual amount of good press. He's not as prominent as he seems. Second, they ran some other polls and discovered that nearly half the city, something like 43%, believe [[spoiler:Moira]] was justified in her actions. That's a ''very'' significant. Undoubtedly some of those polled said they were "undecided". They would just have to convince the undecideds that she did nothing wrong, while also pointing out why Blood's policies would be bad for the city (a point they also explicitly mention). All they need to do is get up to 51% and she can win. |
| 270 | |
| 271 | [[/folder]] |
| 272 | |
| 273 | [[folder:Suicide Squad]] |
| 274 | |
| 275 | * What was the point of using Shrapnel and Bronze Tiger in the Suicide Squad? What were they supposed to do in the final plan. Amanda doesn't seem fazed when [[spoiler:Shrapnel commits SuicideByCop]], does that mean she had a contingency? Was he expendable? Was that the plan all along? |
| 276 | ** Bronze Tiger seems to have been there for general backup and extraction (she sends him in to cover Diggle and Lilah as soon as they need to escape; good thing, too, otherwise Lilah would be dead), and Shrapnel seems to have been the getaway driver. So that's one team leader (Diggle), one person to keep in contact with HQ (Lilah), one driver (Shrapnel), one thug on the inside (Deadshot), and one on the outside (Bronze Tiger). Seems like a minimal enough size for a heist. |
| 277 | ** ''All'' the members of the Suicide Squad are expendable. That's the point. Any and all of them can be sacrificed at a moment's notice. That's incentive for them to remain useful to Waller. |
| 278 | |
| 279 | [[/folder]] |
| 280 | |
| 281 | [[folder:Mockingbird Killing]] |
| 282 | |
| 283 | * Why is Amanda Waller so trigger-happy? Okay, Shrapnel tries to get away by car and she [[spoiler:blows him up]]. A bit extreme, but it's not like she had a choice. Then later in the episode [[spoiler:she uses Deadshot as the target for a drone strike, as opposed to him just leaving a tracking device there.]] I haven't read the comics, so I don't know if this is how the Suicide Squad is supposed to operate, but if she's going out of her way to have them killed what's the point anyway? |
| 284 | ** Considering the name of team it might be implied that they are sacrificial pawns to be disposed off. Thoough I am also not sure if that is how they work in the comics. It would explain why criminals are being used. |
| 285 | ** Waller had a choice with Shrapnel, she chose to make an example of him. Until that point she apparently hadn't revealed to the Suicide Squad that she had kill switches implanted in them. Given what a cold bitch Waller is she probably has no intention of letting any of the Suicide Squad survive long enough to get pardoned. Deadshot seems fully aware that his chances of surviving long enough to be pardoned are low. So in short Waller is trigger happy because she is trying to kill these people, she's just using them in the meanwhile. |
| 286 | ** Its also possible that she's trying to put the fear-of-god into them as well, in the case they ''do'' get pardoned. By killing a few in needlessly brutal ways, any subsequent asset taken will hear the stories and be utterly frightened of being killed, and so work harder to stay needed, while any that do get pardons will be scared into silence at the threat of Waller silencing them, or of committing any other crimes after than to avoid being stuck there again. |
| 287 | ** Yeah it seemed particularly pointless and wasteful of a good asset. Deadshot is one of the most useful of the Suicide Squad and had shown no signs of insubordination and Waller was going to kill him completely needlessly. One can't help but wonder how someone with such poor asset managment skills ever rose as far as Waller has in the first place. |
| 288 | ** [[TakeThat Well, she 'is' government official so wasting assets isn't anything new.]] But getting rid of a world class assassin called The Man Who Never Misses is extreme. Also, weren't there innocents in the mansion that would have been nuked to oblivion? Wasn't this a charity event? |
| 289 | ** She may be smart enough to know that the Suicide Squad is a bit like holding a tiger by the tail. Sooner or later one of them will get loose and quite possibly come after her. As for the innocents Waller doesn't strike me as the type who's worried about collateral damage. |
| 290 | ** Also, while Deadshot has ImprobableAimingSkills...so does half the cast. Oliver, Slade, Malcolm, Nyssa, Shado, Yao Fei, Sara (though not often shown), even Thea, and a few others at least have decent aim. He's an infamously good sharpshooter but he's not the only one with this level of skill that she could recruit. |
| 291 | ** If the Suicide Squad mission featured on the show wasn't proof enough, the finale proved this woman loves the idea of blowing shit up with drones WAY too much. It's not like the Mirakuru soldiers are ''invincible.'' A guy with a bow and arrow can stand up to one, I'm sure a .50BMG, or maybe even a 7.62 NATO round to the face would be enough to stop any of them - even if it didn't kill them (unlikely) it would stop them long enough to be taken into custody. How can her first thought possibly be to kill tens of thousands of innocents to take out some 50 supersoldiers? |
| 292 | |
| 293 | [[/folder]] |
| 294 | |
| 295 | [[folder:Virgin Martini]] |
| 296 | |
| 297 | * In "Suicide Squad," Laurel is sitting at Verdant. Sara pours a drink into a glass and says, "Don't worry, it's virgin." Fair enough, but it looks like Sara poured a martini (clear liquid, conical glass.) A martini is almost pure booze (gin, vermouth, that's about it.) There's nothing like fruit juice or syrup that can be used to make a virgin version. What was that drink, water? Laurel thought it tasted terrible, so it had to have some flavor. |
| 298 | ** Maybe some kind of lemonade or clear-coloured juice of some kind? |
| 299 | ** Soda water maybe? It is a bit of an acquired taste. |
| 300 | ** Tonic water. It tastes bitter, and is clear-coloured. |
| 301 | ** They make non-alcoholic replications of alcohols. Why? I have no idea. But they do. |
| 302 | |
| 303 | [[/folder]] |
| 304 | |
| 305 | [[folder:Acting CEO]] |
| 306 | |
| 307 | * Why would Oliver make Isabel Rochev his acting CEO when, if I remember correctly, she was attempting to take control of the company from her first appearance? While I get he was probably not thinking straight with all that was going on, this feels like an idea where the flaw in it would be not hard to see. |
| 308 | ** That's just what it was. Slade having Thea made a board meeting a total non priority for him. And he didn't realize how bad an idea it was until it was too late. |
| 309 | ** Also, there's the fact the two had bonded quite a bit since their first meeting, so he probably thought he could trust her; not to mention, he probably wasn't aware that she'd have the power to take the company from him like that. |
| 310 | ** It's even more weird when you rewatch the first episode of season 1. At one point, there's a shot of the list which shows Isabel Rochev's name (two spots below Adam Hunt). Kind of makes you wonder why Oliver trusted her at all. |
| 311 | *** We'll have to put that down to EarlyInstallmentWeirdness. Perhaps Isabel Rochev was originally just going to be a VillainOfTheWeek, or maybe it was just a MythologyGag by someone who didn't know she'd be a major villain in Season Two. |
| 312 | [[/folder]] |
| 313 | |
| 314 | [[folder:The Arrow name change]] |
| 315 | |
| 316 | * Does it bug anybody else that Oliver decides to change his handle to "The Arrow" and suddenly ''everybody'' calls him that? Did he make a press release or something? |
| 317 | ** Likely, it's to distinguish him from 'the Hoods', the copycats in the first episode of Season 2. Notably, it wasn't an instant thing; some people still called him 'the Hood' for quite a while, and IIRC some still do, it's just the more main-ish characters call him the Arrow now. |
| 318 | ** The police still seem to refer to him as The Vigilante for the most part. |
| 319 | ** It doesn't happen overnight. Oliver tells Quentin his new moniker, so he starts using it, and presumably the name just filtered through the SCPD and eventually the media from there. |
| 320 | [[/folder]] |
| 321 | |
| 322 | [[folder:"One more has to die"]] |
| 323 | |
| 324 | * Is Ollie really so dense that he thinks he's the "one other who has to die" Slade was talking about? a) He was RIGHT THERE, completely helpless and open for Slade to kill! b) Oliver was given a choice on the island, and Slade think Ollie is responsible because of the choice he ''did'' make. c) Slade makes it pretty clear that IWantHimToSuffer applies. Has Ollie never heard of "poetic justice"? Because I'm pretty sure that's what Slade would think of it as. |
| 325 | ** He just lost his mother. He's traumatized more than he's ever been, and he just wants it all to end. He's not thinking clearly, he just wants Slade to kill him and end this; it's not him being dense, it's him being completely at RockBottom. |
| 326 | |
| 327 | [[/folder]] |
| 328 | |
| 329 | [[folder:Going back to the League]] |
| 330 | |
| 331 | * Am I the only one bugged that, after Sara worked so hard to avoid going back and spent so much time trying to leave her past behind her, she just so willingly goes back to the League, with it being played off as what she wants? She tried to kill herself once to avoid going back, for Christ's sake! I get they want to leave off so Laurel can become Black Canary, and I'm grateful they didn't kill her off so Laurel could take her place, but it's a pretty sad way to write her out. |
| 332 | ** Given that Malcolm Merlyn is back, and he's got a target on his back from Ra's Al Ghul, Sara will probably be back in two shakes of a lamb's tail. |
| 333 | ** A little. Even if it was somewhat presented as being her choice this troper thought it looked a lot more like a case of she sold her soul (again) to the League, this time to protect her city and didn't want her friends and family freaking out about the cost. Lets be honest, without help vs Slade's army that battle would have been very one sided. Even as it stands it took some pretty generous applications of PlotArmor to get the crew through with out a single casualty. |
| 334 | ** Original Poster here: Well, now that they've [[spoiler: killed her off for good]], I'd like to also add/ask if there was really any point in having her survive the battle at all [[spoiler: if they're just going to kill her off right after without any fight scene or last act of redemption]]? I mean, at least if she died in the Season 2 finale, it could have been presented as RedemptionEqualsDeath, with her finally getting the final redemption she'd wanted, instead of what we got instead. TheyWastedAPerfectlyGoodCharacter doesn't even begin to describe it. |
| 335 | ** It is super upsetting that [[spoiler: she died, and even worse that her death was to trick Oliver into a terrible position.]] It does emphasize the idea that Sara's journey was never about Sara to begin with, as the producers suggested when she was introduced. She had to become a hero in Laurel's eyes so that Laurel had a reason to become Black Canary: because "no one will ever know who [Sara] was" unless Laurel shows them. There were always going to be two Canaries, but [[spoiler: that doesn't mean she had to die in such a stupid way, and for someone else entirely.]] |
| 336 | |
| 337 | [[/folder]] |
| 338 | |
| 339 | [[folder:Nolan Trilogy]] |
| 340 | |
| 341 | * I know that Arrow and the Nolan Trilogy don't share the same universe but is anybody else looking at the basic scenario presented in Season One of a group trying to wipe the bad part of their city, followed by a Slade and with an ultimately failed BatmanGambit on Waller to again destroy the city, the establishment of Ra's Al Ghul and the League and wondering how this could be if anything a League plot to take a major city off the map? If Ra's shows up as the BigBad in season three I'm gonna have to bang my head against a wall figuring out why he saved it to thrash it a year later. |
| 342 | ** Well, Ra's himself didn't seem to want to save the city; his daughter wanted Sara back and she agreed to do so if they saved the city. It seems in the show's universe, the League consider genocide of a city to be dishonourable and prefer silent assassinations, so its unlikely Ra's is going to show up planning to destroy the city. Most likely, he'll want to kill Malcolm and possibly Thea for the former's betrayal of their code, and possibly the Queen family as a whole because of Moira's part in it. |
| 343 | ** It seems unlikely that Ra's daughter does much without his at least tacit approval. It's not clear when exactly Malcolm left the League only that he wasn't in hiding at all until the end of Season 1 so Ra's wasn't trying but so hard to kill him though perhaps the genocide of a city is what broke the ties. If we use the more recent characterizations of Ra's the plan to destroy Starling City was probably partially inspired by the league. Maybe not the genocide part but the economic destruction sounds like something he would do. The bottom line is we won't know until we know. |
| 344 | ** Sara mentions to Nyssa that Ra's voluntarily allowed Malcolm to leave the league; Nyssa fires back that Malcolm then nearly killed an entire city, and now Ra's wants to kill him personally. So that's why Malcolm wasn't in hiding at first, and it seems unlikely that Ra's will have any desire to destroy the city. Remember, the League of Assassins is not the same as the League of Shadows from ''Film/BatmanBegins''. The [=LoA=] are mercenary assassins with a code of honor. The [=LoS=] are {{Knight Templar}}s dedicated to destroying entire civilizations to purge evil from the world. They're simply completely different organizations with different goals. |
| 345 | ** There's a few reasons why Ra's would want Malcolm dead once the exact nature of The Undertaking was revealed. First, if the League of Assassins is anything like in the comics, they're big on eliminating any of their members who go for RevengeBeforeReason. The [=LoA=] is big on subtlety (or, at least, plausible deniability) when killing someone and earthquakes appearing where there aren't usually earthquakes will get attention. Another possibility with Ra's, DependingOnTheWriter, is that EvenEvilHasStandards and that while Ra's can forgive a personal vendetta when honor and family is involved, he will not tolerate the random slaughter of innocents. The well-planned slaughter of innocents in the name of tradition, as in Season Three, is something else entirely, at least MetaphoricallyTrue. |
| 346 | |
| 347 | [[/folder]] |
| 348 | |
| 349 | [[folder:Salmon bars]] |
| 350 | |
| 351 | * When Ollie gets really high up on those salmon bars...how does he get back down? |
| 352 | ** There's probably a pillow or mat on the ground |
| 353 | ** Okay, so then how does he get the bar back down? |
| 354 | ** Several things come to mind for this question and the above one. First camera angles are tricky things and Ollie is probably never actually that high off the ground, certainly no farther than some of the bigger jumps we've seen him take with no harm. Sure he doesn't go around jumping off buildings but I think if we start looking around we can easily find several cases of him jumping off something ten to fifteen feet high which is probably more than twice the most probable height he'd build his salmon bars too. I know he's a bit insane but you don't build your personal gym in a way that is likely to hurt you so even if there isn't the probable mat he's probably not nearly as far up as it looks. As for getting the bar back down that's simple. The easiest method (and the one I've seen on youtube) is just to climb up and get it. Anybody with the upper body strength to do a salmon ladder can grab the pegs and climb up without too much difficulty to reclaim it. I don't see any reason why he couldn't take it down with him initially though. You reach the top and instead of hooking into a rung that isn't there you fall backwards with it overhead. Overall not much more dangerous than some of the stunts he pulls with his bow. Finally the bar probably isn't particularly heavy, just solid. Ollie can shoot tennis balls out the air. The only reason he might not shoot the bar off the pegs is not wanting to blunt a perfectly good arrow. |
| 355 | |
| 356 | [[/folder]] |
| 357 | |
| 358 | [[folder:Poison bullets]] |
| 359 | |
| 360 | * Would coating a bullet with poison actually work? I would think the hot gas from the exploding powder would burn off any poison residue. |
| 361 | ** Probably not. AcceptableBreaksFromReality is probably kicking in there. Either that, or its special bullets. |
| 362 | * 'Coating' is probably the wrong word for the writers to use. The poison would be inside the bullet and be released when it breaks up on impact with flesh and bone. |
| 363 | [[/folder]] |
| 364 | |
| 365 | [[folder:Laurel's characterization]] |
| 366 | |
| 367 | * What is up with Laurel's characterization on this show? She's the '''canon Black Canary''', but there is not one character from this show I've seen who is more reviled by fans than her. From this website alone I've seen enough people clamoring for Oliver to hook up with either Sara or Felicity over hooking up with Laurel, because she's presented as so unlikeable. I'd like to add that in the comics Felicity never even interacted with Oliver, and Sara ''doesn't exist in the comics''. So do the writers of the show just not ''like'' Dinah, aka Laurel, or what else is going on that fans hate her and outright wish that Oliver ''not'' hook up with the woman who's supposed to be his soul mate? |
| 368 | ** I think the writers wanted to try something unexpected with Laurel's character and they got a bit carried away with it. Hopefully Sara's exit from the show (at least I assume it's going to be an exit) plus the fact that Laurel is attending AA and trying to clean up her life means that they're going to start turning her around and making her more likable. |
| 369 | ** I think a big problem is down to miscasting combined with trying to have Canary's origin told over the course of the series. Katie Cassidy isn't really a bad actress, but she's ill-fitted for the role and lacks any chemistry with most of the cast, while they gave her a pretty basic characterization that didn't really click with audiences. Combine that with them then introducing Felicity and Sara, both whom had much more interesting personalities, better actors who had stronger chemistry with Oliver and the other characters, and both served a use to the plot rather than the TrappedByMountainLions and DesignatedDamsel roles Laurel got, it turned audiences against her. |
| 370 | ** Also a lot of her scenes were cut. |
| 371 | ** Part of the problem is that your premise is false: she is '''not''' the "canon Black Canary," or was not, until the show killed Sara so that Laurel could take her place.[[note]]Also, Laurel has little in common with the Black Canary from the comics, who is named Dinah (Laurel, granted, is her middle name), is a not a lawyer (a florist, actually), has never been a drug addict, and so forth, so she is not the canonical Canary in that sense, either.[[/note]] Killing off a more popular character to let a less liked character take her place only made things worse, at least for me. I would also agree with what ablackraptor wrote, but I would add that it's actually worse than that. Laurel was useless and obnoxious for at least the whole first season. First, when Oliver comes back, having survived something much worse than he could possibly have deserved, she berates him and blames him for her inability to mourn her sister. I'm sorry, but if you have been unable to properly grieve for your little sister after five years because she made a mistake as a teenager, that's on you. Then after being involved with Tommy for most of season one, she then sleeps with Oliver. Then she refuses to leave her office when she knows a massive earthquake is about to hit, leading to Tommy's death saving her. She just wasn't a very likeable character, but the show kept shoving her on us, insisting that we like her. Then they kill Sara and make Laurel into the Canary. And to make matters worse, in "Canaries," they have other characters shilling her, with Felicity essentially telling her that she's a better Canary than Sara and that Sara never had the inner light or some nonsense that Laurel supposedly does. Having a popular character shill for an unpopular one does not make the unpopular one more likeable, it just makes the popular one a bit less so. In short, I think the show made a terrible mistake in killing off Sara, and I don't think Laurel's popularity will ever recover from it. Every time I see her, I'm just reminded that she's not the real Canary. |
| 372 | *** She ''is'' the canon Black Canary. The Black Canary's full name in the comics is Dinah Laurel Lance, same as here, she's romantically linked to Green Arrow, and she has her Canary cry, albeit not technological in the comics. So her biographical details are a little different -- that happens in adaptations. She was introduced specifically to BE Black Canary. From the pilot onward, she was ''always'' going to be Black Canary, not this woman who doesn't even exist in the comics. Also, where do you get the idea that Oliver should have a free pass for ''sleeping with her sister'' when they were together, just because he (for all she knew) spent five years on an extended camping trip? That's the kind of thing that you expect to earn you undying hatred, yet she eventually does forgive him. Likewise, guess what? Sleeping with your sister's boyfriend is a little more than a "mistake." It's an incredibly cruel thing to do. And she forgives Sara for that, too. Her behavior in the first season is a hundred percent justified. She goes off the rails in the second season, but then gets better. I think you have an incredibly skewed view of this character. |
| 373 | ** She and Tommy were broken up when she slept with Oliver, though, so why is that in any way wrong? She had no reason to believe they were going to get back together. The scene that explains why she was at CNRI was cut. She was there because she wanted to save the files for her clients, just like Roy was there (with Thea) because he wanted to help people. The only difference between the two of them is that someone happened to get hurt by no fault of their own. She had no reason to know Tommy would come for her. And the EP's have said Tommy was killed for Oliver's characterization in Season 2 more than Laurel's, same with Sara who was killed to kick off the entire plot of Season 3 and the theme of Oliver's identity. It just feels weird to blame Laurel for plot related decisions when they were mostly made by the writers for Oliver. Also Felicity never said Sara didn't have a light, she simply said that Laurel had a different light, which is very true. She did not call her a better Black Canary, just asked her to be a different one. Felicity was in the scene where Sara told Oliver that her light was gone. |
| 374 | ** Sara's death was clearly to benefit Laurel's journey rather than Oliver's. Oliver was struggling with his identity of Arrow vs. Oliver and telling Felicity he couldn't be with her ''before'' Sara was killed. Meanwhile Laurel's whole story arc has been to avenge Sara, let out her anger and carry on her sister's legacy. Yes, Sara's murder eventually led onto the Malcolm Meryln/League of Assassins plot-line but there were multiple ways that could have been achieved. Additionally Laurel has caused other changes to Season 3 which have been less-than-popular. There have been multiple complaints that her presence in the lair has sidelined Diggle in screentime and his position in the team. Her keeping Quentin in the dark about Sara's death has angered a lot of people, especially as she's now drawn Team Arrow into the deceit. Her training's been criticized as it's not nearly comparable to Sara and Oliver's five years of hell, or even Thea's intensive time with Malcolm and Roy's development which started way back in Season 2. Felicity's character has taken some hits because of her having to constantly prop Laurel, particularly the previously-mentioned line about Laurel not Sara having an inner light. Yes, she may have overheard Sara telling Oliver her light was gone but that ''doesn't'' mean she agreed with her. Sara was shown to be extremely damaged and self-loathing at the point and the audience wasn't meant to agree she was beyond redemption, while Felicity had previously been nothing but understanding of Sara's past (the joining clubs we can't get out of comment) and admiring of her courage and mission. The show's had to bend team dynamics and characters out of shape to accommodate her in a show that worked perfectly well without her in it. |
| 375 | ** Also addressing why Laurel - now she's becoming the Black Canary - is so different from the original character. Essentially the show was meant to be her origin story but was one misstep after another. In Season 1 they locked her into a toxic OfficialCouple relationship with Oliver, and had her cause the death of her more popular LoveInterest Tommy. (Yes, as said she was trying to help people by getting those files, but ultimately they're just ''files'', not people like Roy was trying to save, and your common sense really should kick in when the building's falling down and Quentin, Moira and Oliver all told her to get the hell out of there). In Season 2, they made her highly unlikable compared to characters like Sara and Oliver who suffered far worse without becoming so whiny. The show essentially moved on without her and she was unnecessary to the plot. So by the time Season 3 rolled around and they returned to their Black Canary plan they had 1) A highly, highly unlikable character who contributed nothing apart from maybe her law expertise and 2) A much more popular, skilled and complex Canary in Sara. Instead of keeping Sara or fixing Laurel's characterization/position slowly, they killed off Sara whipped Laurel into the Canary position in half a season, while the memory of hated Laurel from Season 1 and 2 was still present in everyone's mind. Poor characterization and plotlines, and a rushed journey resulted in Laurel's disconnect from the original vision of The Black Canary character. |
| 376 | ** From a writer's perspective, it would have been far more interesting to have had Laurel die in Season 3 and use her death to prompt a RedemptionQuest for Sara as she now has to fight her love and her past life to become the hero she was destined to be. Ironically, this seems to be the direction they've finally taken in ''Series/LegendsOfTomorrow''. |
| 377 | |
| 378 | [[/folder]] |
| 379 | |
| 380 | [[folder:Old Gods]] |
| 381 | |
| 382 | * Blood mocks his mother for still worshiping "the old gods," and tells her they're dead. Except...she's messing around with a cross, and appears to be muttering Christian catechisms at times. He could conceivably be talking about the Christian God (presumably the Trinity as three separate gods, even though that's not how they actually work), but he never brings it up again. He is never shown to be dismissive of Christianity, doesn't view himself or Slade as some "new god" or anything of the sort...it just seems odd and out of place. What does it mean? |
| 383 | ** He might have meant gods in general, as in, all mainstream religions, not just the one in particular that she follows. |
| 384 | ** It's possible that she believes in some kind of fusion of Christian and pagan/animist beliefs. That kind of mixed religion is historically pretty common in areas where a major religion is introduced and eventually supersedes a smaller local religion. |
| 385 | |
| 386 | [[/folder]] |
| 387 | |
| 388 | [[folder: Passage of Time]] |
| 389 | |
| 390 | * The show operates in 'real-time' i.e. 1 season = 1 year in the show (or more accurately 7 months, followed by a 5-month TimeSkip to the events of the next season). This also seemingly applies to the island flashbacks (so that 5 seasons = Oliver's five years away). Now while this equal passage of time works somewhat for the Season 1 flashback story, IMO it doesn't really hold up to scrutiny with the Season 2 flashbacks. Are we supposed to believe that the entire sequence of events from Oliver, Slade and Shado encountering Ivo's men up till Oliver and Slade's final battle on the Amazo, took ''7 months''?! Of course, we're never given any clear indications regarding the passage of time in the flashbacks themselves, but it really doesn't seem to have taken more than a couple of months at most... |
| 391 | ** I think its reasonable to assume that the flashbacks in general don't necessarily take as much time as the present scenes do to pass, given many times they tend to have several episodes depict the events of a single day, while the present scenes can have maybe weeks pass in a single episode. In either case, its easy to assume that the second season ends up making up that time at the end, in between [[spoiler: the Amazo sinking and he waking up in Waller's possession]]. We don't know how long he was out, but it could have been some time. |
| 392 | ** I doubt if Oliver was out for more than, say, a week or two at most after the Amazo sinking. But you're right that there are certain parts of the Season 2 flashback storyline where it was possible to make up for time. But on the whole, watching the episodes back to back, you really don't get the sense that a total of seven months passed. Again, that doesn't mean its not possible. |
| 393 | ** We know that after two years, he was in Hong Kong. We have no idea what the timeframe of the first two years of the flashbacks is, just that it was long enough for Oliver to be become a capable fighter & archer by the end of season one, and for Slade's mental state to deteriorate due to the Mirakuru. |
| 394 | ** We know that about a year passed between the Gambit going down and Oliver encountering Sara again on the Amazo. We know that five months passed between Oliver waking up in Hong Kong in Waller's custody and the start of the Season 3 flashbacks. And Waller talks about how the Fyers operation having been 'two years ago', meaning we are clearly in Oliver's third year away. So the implication clearly is that a lot of time (at least six months) passed during the whole Season 2 island subplot. Of course, one new possibility which occurred to me is that the Hong Kong flashbacks so far are set maybe months apart (so for instance, the flashback of Oliver [[spoiler: killing his target]] in Hong Kong is maybe set a month or two after the flashback with Tommy...and that's how time is 'catching up'. It's possible, especially since Waller claimed that the events on the Amazo happened 'last year'. |
| 395 | [[/folder]] |
| 396 | |
| 397 | [[folder: Letting Merlyn Go]] |
| 398 | * Why the hell did Oliver let Malcolm go? Not only did Ollie willingly let Malcolm escape, but he placed him under protection! Did Oliver just forget about everybody killed in the Earthquake in Season 1? Even if he would be good enough to escape prison, that's no reason not to lock him up at all! It makes Oliver look far TooDumbToLive. |
| 399 | ** The fact that Oliver doesn't want to kill any more is part of it, but a much bigger part is that he believed Merlyn when he said he'd keep Thea safe. He basically recruited an extra bodyguard for her, and one who isn't going to be busy stopping criminals when she needs him. Not to mention that, as was repeatedly stated throughout the episode, Merlyn is a killer--meaning if someone needs to be killed, [[VillainsDoTheDirtyWork Oliver can let him do it]]. That probably wasn't the best solution here (especially the part about declaring war on the League), but Oliver has repeatedly shown to have a massive blind spot regarding his sister. He's got her slotted firmly into the "innocent, needs protecting at all costs," part of his brain, and simply considers her safety more important than taking out Merlyn. |
| 400 | ** ''"Even if he would be good enough to escape prison, that's no reason not to lock him up at all!"'' Actually, I think it is. Locking Malcolm up despite knowing he would escape would bring far more trouble. Firstly, it would risk exposing the fact he's Thea's father, thus painting a giant target on Thea's back for everyone who lost someone in the Glades that might want to use her as a way to get back at him (like they tried when the world blamed Moira for it), which is obviously something Oliver doesn't want. Secondly, it would risk prompting Malcolm to reveal Oliver's secret identity to the public, which is something Oliver ''does not want''. Thirdly, there's the fact that, while we're informed that the League can escape any prison, we're not informed on ''how'', or rather, how many people will likely be killed; be it other inmates or innocent guards and/or police officers, Malcolm is liable to cut them down hard to escape, and thus indirectly mean Oliver is responsible (at least, as far as he's concerned) by putting Malcolm in that position. Fourthly, putting him under his protection makes sense when you take into account that Nyssa (someone Oliver at least knows personally) was willing to use Thea as a way to get to Malcolm, so its not hard to imagine that he'd be concerned about other League killers coming after her too; putting Malcolm under his protection also puts Thea under it too. Lastly, there's the opposite suggestion to the above: Oliver isn't just against killing, but he's firmly against others doing it, even trying to stop Nyssa and the League from executing Mirikuru soldiers and yelling at them when they killed [[spoiler: Isabel Rochev]]; simply put, he wants to save everyone, even badguys like Merlyn. |
| 401 | ** I don't think Oliver is fundamentally against ''anyone'' killing. If that were the case, he wouldn't let Diggle carry a firearm. Hell, at that rate, he wouldn't be comfortable working with Lance and wouldn't approve of any SCPD officer using lethal force, which is absurd. Oliver's 'no-killing rule' applies to himself and to his crusade (which he temporarily considered the League to be part of during the Siege). Oliver's reasons for ensuring that Merlyn isn't killed purely has to do with not wanting his sister's father killed, at least not in his city. I do wonder how he would react if Merlyn was killed somewhere else by the League though. |
| 402 | ** And now Malcom has, of course, been revealed as the man behind Sara's death. Ollie's response? Shrug his shoulders, let Malcom waltz away and go to fight Ra's to save him instead of, you know, doing the smart thing and handing Malcolm over to the League. |
| 403 | ** No, Oliver's plan was to kill Malcolm himself, and then probably hand the League his head. Malcolm countered with the blackmail material (which would be published on his death), convincing Oliver that the only way to save Thea was to kill Ra's. |
| 404 | ** And now Malcolm has attempted to kill both Ollie and Thea on the island, not to mention killing innocent guards, by releasing Slade and even taunted them both about it. Ollie still forgave him for it. |
| 405 | ** At least now we have an explanation: In Nanda Parbat, Ollie flat out admits to Laurel's face that he doesn't care about Sara's death. Laurel tells him that Malcolm has to pay and that she needs to avenge her sister. Ollie coldly shrugs this off and then gets mad at her when she goes after the mass murdering terrorist. Our hero everyone! |
| 406 | ** Admitting he needs Malcolm to keep Thea alive is a far cry from claiming he doesn't care. And he should be mad at her for going after Malcolm. Laurel can barely hold her own against random street thugs. She survived Malcolm because he was feeling generous at the time. SuicideByCop is not something you're supposed to encourage. |
| 407 | ** Ollie smugly lied to her face when she asked about going after Sara's killer, knowing full well he'd placed Malcolm under his protection. Then, when the League takes him down, Ollie gets furious with Laurel and storms off to rescue him. It's pretty blatantly obvious now that Ollie doesn't care in the least about Sara's death. |
| 408 | ** Not to mention showing more emotion over Roy's fake death than he ever did over Sara's. |
| 409 | ** Well at that point Oliver witnessed [[spoiler: Sara "die" two separate times prior to her appearance in Starling City]] so he may have just been numbed to the idea of her dying, or had hoped [[spoiler: correctly]] that she would come back. It's a pretty crappy reason, but it makes sense. |
| 410 | ** Or Oliver has just become that good at lying to Laurel. Or Laurel has that big a blind-spot when it comes to failing to know when Oliver is lying. |
| 411 | [[/folder]] |
| 412 | |
| 413 | [[folder: Felicity's lack of Brass Rat]] |
| 414 | * How come Felicity doesn't wear a [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIT_class_ring brass rat]]? |
| 415 | ** Not everyone likes to wear their class ring all the time. |
| 416 | [[/folder]] |
| 417 | |
| 418 | [[folder:Where does Ollie get those wonderful toys?]] |
| 419 | * No, seriously, he doesn't run QI anymore, and I'm pretty sure he's out of money. How's he funding his operation in Season 3? Does he get a Mafiya pension? Does Argus pay him a consulting fee? Is he quietly selling his QI stock? No, wait Rochev sold that. Is he living off his inheritance? [[http://www.reddit.com/r/arrow/comments/2it1cb/season_3_where_is_oliver_getting_money/ I'm not even the only person asking this]]. |
| 420 | ** They've lampshaded this a few times so far, so I assume it's going to be a plot point to explore later. |
| 421 | ** As Stephen Amell said on the thestreamtv Arrow after show, a broke billionaire is still a millionaire. |
| 422 | ** The Arrow Season 2.5 comic provides an answer. Ollie gets his gear from a guy in Bludhaven, who is well-paid for his discretion. As for how he's paying for it, Oliver has collected in full on his mother's life insurance policy, which - shockingly enough - had several provisions for paying out more in the case of sudden, violent death. By the time Season Three started, Walter Steele had also stepped in to help Oliver get control of his finances, recover as much of his family's assets as possible in the wake of Isabela Rochev being revealed as Slade Wilson's accomplice and help Oliver prepare the bid to reclaim Queen Consolidated. |
| 423 | |
| 424 | [[/folder]] |
| 425 | |
| 426 | [[folder:Why hand Cupid to the Suicide Squad]] |
| 427 | * For starters, like Oliver says himself, she's ''not well''. Cupid is ''mentally ill'', and not in a CrazyIsCool way; you don't put her in a team like that where she's likely to be killed or traumatized (and thus, further damage her mental state) so she can 'at least be useful', you put them in a mental institute until they can medicate her illnesses. This really was a dick move on Ollie's part, and the others for not calling him out on it. |
| 428 | ** It's a miracle she didn't kill her psychiatrist the first time, and he didn't want to risk it again. Now, Cupid doesn't have any super powers or even absurd skills with a bow, so a perfectly ordinary psychiatric institute for the criminally insane should be able to hold her without difficulty and give her some real help, but the only DC institution that fits the bill is Arkham. And yes, the Suicide Squad would be better for her mental state than Arkham. |
| 429 | ** Somebody would have to pay for her to be in a mental institute. Oliver wouldn't be able to do that without revealing who he is. |
| 430 | ** No member of the Suicide Squad can be described as "well". Remember this is the same Suicide Squad that has counted Shrapnel and Harley Quinn as members. Even the most stable SS members are sociopathic killers. Cupid isn't exactly in unusual company. |
| 431 | |
| 432 | [[/folder]] |
| 433 | |
| 434 | [[folder:Why does Starling City need the Arrow?]] |
| 435 | * In the first season, Oliver targets corrupt businessmen who are so wealthy and powerful that they're basically immune to the law. However, later seasons show him focusing on mobsters, drug dealers, and other ordinary criminals. The Starling City Police Department is not shown being unusually corrupt or incompetent in dealing with these kinds of criminals. So why does Oliver focus on fighting criminals that the SCPD is already doing a decent job of containing? |
| 436 | ** The Glades are still a complete no-fly zone for the cops after the events of season 1. An entire section of the city basically owned by criminals. Though by season 3 that might have changed, and the Arrow might ''not'' be necessary, it's hard to tell. Plus, there is some corruption in the police still; there was one scene where Lance officially chewed out a couple of beat cops for arresting a friend of the commissioner, before handing them some cash and telling them drinks were on him. |
| 437 | ** More than anything else, the Arrow is now a symbol of hope to the citizens of Starling, much like Batman is to Gotham. This is a city which was rife with corruption and crony capitalism of the worst kind, to say nothing of the crime-ravaged Glades, and the two terrorist attacks. And the Arrow has, in some form or the other, dealt with ALL of it. At the start of the season we're told that people are moving out of Starling because they don't feel safe in the city...its very likely that the people who've remained have stayed because they feel protected by the Arrow. |
| 438 | |
| 439 | [[/folder]] |
| 440 | |
| 441 | [[folder:Torturing the Hong Kong bomber.]] |
| 442 | * Why does Waller think that torture will reveal the location of the bomb in Hong Kong? She knew he had already assembled and planted the bomb, which goes off shortly after his capture. Why does Waller think that a few minutes of pain will get him to reveal his plan when he's already so close to success? |
| 443 | ** She probably doesn't. Her only purpose is to use the situation to train Oliver in the 'art of torture'. She might have known that torturing the man was pointless (probably why she didn't get an experienced agent to do it), but decided that the experience would serve as an object lesson for Oliver. Either Oliver tortures the man successfully, or he fails to do so, and she can guilt-trip him about how the blood of all the victims is 'on his hands', thus spurring him to become better at torture (which is what happens). Doubles as FridgeBrilliance and FridgeHorror! |
| 444 | [[/folder]] |
| 445 | |
| 446 | [[folder:Disbanding the Vigilante Task Force]] |
| 447 | * Why hasn't there been any political fallout from disbanding the Vigilante Task Force? Even though he's changed, Oliver has murdered several wealthy and powerful people who were, as far as the public knows, legitimate businessmen. Not to mention that Oliver's victims might have [[EvenEvilHasLovedOnes family members]] looking to [[AvengingTheVillain avenge them.]] |
| 448 | ** Well, in ''Series/{{The Flash|2014}}'' crossover episode ''Flash vs. Arrow'', we do learn that even though the SCPD is now 'cool' with the Arrow, police officers from other cities, such as Joe West, aren't all that eager to give him a clean slate. As far as political fallout goes, yes its surprising that we haven't really seen any, but its possible that for now the writers don't want to explore that particular plot-line. Also, the Arrow now enjoys widespread public and media support, so maybe it is advantageous for the police department and the Powers-That-Be to appear to support him right now. Finally, Arrow didn't really kill any 'legitimate businessmen' in Season 1. He didn't kill Adam Hunt, Malcolm did, and Hunt had been exposed as a fraud already. He killed Ted Gaynor, another seemingly legitimate businessman, but Gaynor was also exposed as a criminal. Most of the people he killed were either [[WhatMeasureIsAMook bodyguards and henchmen]] and/or Mob bosses and killers. |
| 449 | ** There was already a point in Season 1 where Quentin was told to drop his hunt for the Vigilante because Oliver's reputation as a hero was gradually developing, even if not everyone agreed with his lethality. By Season 2 even Quentin wasn't particularly motivated to hunt down the Arrow, so disbanding the task force may have just been a formality. |
| 450 | ** Furthermore, the one time the police actually sought to capture the Arrow in Season 2, they were driven primarily by the anti-vigilante agenda of Adam Donner, helped along by a then-vengeful Laurel who blamed the Arrow for Tommy's death. Donner probably dropped his anti-vigilante agenda after the Arrow saved his life in "State v. Queen" and so political interest in making a concerted effort to take down the Arrow likely declined. Kate Spenser does try to coerce Lance into giving her his identity but considering how easily she gave up in the face of Laurel's 'blackmail', it likely wasn't that important an agenda for her either. After he saved the city from Slade and the Mirakuru soldiers, any lingering interest in stopping the Arrow likely evaporated. |
| 451 | [[/folder]] |
| 452 | |
| 453 | [[folder:Where Exactly is Starling City?]] |
| 454 | * Ok, for most of Season 1, I just assumed that Starling City was somewhere in Northern California or possibly Oregon or Washington, like in the comics, given that Robert and Oliver were able to sail to China. However, in Season 2, Felicity mentioned at some point that they are 1000 miles from Las Vegas. After measuring distances, You cannot be on the coast of Northern California, Oregon, or Washington and be 1000 miles away. Then, in Season 3, Oliver stated that Central City is 600 miles away. In the comics, Central City is located somewhere in the Midwest, probably Missouri, and the Midwest is well over 600 miles from the West Coast. Later on, when they showed a map on screen, it displayed Starling City as probably in Northern Wisconsin on Lake Superior. This allows Central City to be in the Midwest, so it seems to make the most sense. But, then Season 1 doesn't make sense, because how then would Robert and Oliver have been able to sail to China? They would've had to sail from Starling to an airstrip probably in Canada and be airlifted to the West Coast for that to make any sense, and that seems needlessly complicated. That and the comment about Las Vegas still doesn't make sense because that would make Starling around 1500 miles away, not 1000. |
| 455 | ** Is there any specification that the dock they left was in Starling? Its been a while since I watched the episode, but its possible that they went to a different city first to get on the boat, rather than leave from Starling, allowing some leeway on how they could sail to China. As for the exact location, its possible that the distance notes are exaggerations or estimates rather than the exact distance. |
| 456 | ** I actually have watched that episode recently, and what made it confusing is that, not only were Robert and Ollie there, so was Moira. Now this could be explained by saying they all flew out to the West Coast, but then Ollie gets a call from Sara and he tells her to circle the block a few times, so she drove there...this being further cemented by the fact the reason he told her that was because Laurel showed up, having driven there. Unlikely they both drove all the way to the West Coast. |
| 457 | ** It gets even more vexing if you try to make use of the ZIP Codes that have been given out in various episodes. in the Season 2 episode ''Blast Radius'', Laurel sees a bill on Sebastian Blood's desk that gives Starling City's ZIP Code as 98114. In the real world, this is an actual ZIP Code for Seattle, Washington - which was Green Arrow's hometown in the late '80s/early '90s comics and the current series. Yet in ''Rogue Air'' from Season 1 of [[Series/TheFlash2014 The Flash]], Eddie and Iris' address in Central City is given and has the 74912 ZIP Code. This is not a valid ZIP code, although the 749 prefix is reserved for central Oklahoma. And then, in the Season 2 episode ''Potential Energy'', we are given four digit codes for the ZIP Codes in both Midway City (7401) and Central City (7423)! So clearly [[WildMassGuessing Barry's first trip to the past changed the number of digits in a ZIP Code in the Arrowverse]]! |
| 458 | ** I always assumed it was near Seattle, but episode 5/22 reveals that Star City is roughly where San Francisco, CA should be. There's no other text on the map, and the bay itself is absent or covered by the text, but Point Reyes, Monterey Bay, and the Lompoc / Santa Barbara curve to the California coastline are easy to recognize. 36 minutes in. This puts it 635 miles from Portland, OR - not a bad choice for Central City. |
| 459 | |
| 460 | [[/folder]] |
| 461 | |
| 462 | [[folder:Iron Heights location]] |
| 463 | * This also raises the question, where is Iron Heights? Starling City and Central City evidently share it as a prison, but since their 600 miles apart, it would most likely have to be in a different state from either of them. So if that's true, then how does Oliver, Laurel, and Detective Lance get there so quickly in Season 1? And that goes for the cast of the Flash as well, except for Barry. |
| 464 | ** This was brought up on ''The Flash'' Headscratcher page, and it was pretty much decided that Central City and Starling City were in the same state and located reasonably close to one-another (given that they specifically show Barry coming across a road leading to Starling after accidentally running out of town), with Iron Heights being the closest State prison to both; in the grand scheme of things, assuming its located in between them, it should only be about 300 miles away from either, making it possible for someone to travel there with ease from either city. |
| 465 | ** I actually pulled up Google Earth to test that theory, and whoever came up with that theory severely underestimated how far 600 miles really is. If you assume Starling is where The Climb says it is, then 600 miles to Central City puts it somewhere like Missouri or Southern Illinois. And, if say, Central City is in Missouri, then you have to go through Iowa to get there. |
| 466 | ** If I remember right in the comic book The New Frontier they established that Barry was the Illinois Flash. Also judging from the overall look of Starling I always assumed it was in Washington State near Seattle. |
| 467 | ** Going with the above location for Star City, San Quentin state prison is right across the bay and looks an awful lot like the establishing shots for Iron Heights. |
| 468 | [[/folder]] |
| 469 | |
| 470 | [[folder: Waller and Arrowcave V.2]] |
| 471 | |
| 472 | * Ollie doesn't exactly spend a lot of time there so how did she find it? Why would she even have been looking in the first place? The reason this is a head scratcher is because while the various characters that discover secret lairs are treated as being brilliant for finding the secret lair that's not usually the hard part. The hard part is the secret identity. Once you know Batman and Bruce Wayne are the same person the Batcave is literally the first place you would look, especially if you had some understanding of the geography of the area. (How Ra's and various others get in is a second and separate issue) Once you know Oliver Queen is the Arrow the Arrow Cave is quite literally the ''second'' place you would go looking. However the backup cave was set not as some kind of refuel station but as a place he could go if the first cave was ever compromised. One would think he'd own it through the kind of maze of shell companies and subsidiaries, Mafia and whoever else that untangling it would be nearly if not completely impossible. Hell I probably wouldn't even own it just find some abandoned place. |
| 473 | ** It's mentioned that it apparently became his "quiet place," where he would go when he needed to be away from everyone, including his friends. Waller probably has a satellite on him 24/7, so it wouldn't be too hard to find the second cave. |
| 474 | |
| 475 | [[/folder]] |
| 476 | |
| 477 | [[folder: Thea doesn't know Ollie's the Arrow?]] |
| 478 | * Since now we know that Malcolm didn't tell, her the question becomes why didn't he? He saves her from Slade's warriors, tells her that everybody has been lying to her, but at the moment things are tense and she's not trying to hear anything. But at no point during the time skip, while he was training her did he tell her? You don't train a warrior with the belief you're the only one she can trust and lie to her about something you have no reason to hide from her! If Thea had known that Oliver was the Arrow, she wouldn't have had to reveal that she was trained and dangerous, and Oliver wouldn't have tortured her but so much. |
| 479 | ** Well, it turns out Merlyn was just using her as well. If she knew Ollie was the Arrow, she would have been able to talk to him about things more, and that's one more variable Merlyn would have to account for in his plans. |
| 480 | ** I'm sure he must have kept that fact in reserve in case of a confrontation. If it ever came down to a direct confrontation between Merlyn and Oliver and Thea looked like she was about to side with her brother, Merlyn has this trump card he can whip out. "BTW, did you know your brother is the Arrow and never told you? Just another one of his ''lies''." |
| 481 | ** Malcolm kept it secret because Oliver's secret activities were damaging his relationship with Thea--he has to rush off on several occasions when his family needs him, often with BlatantLies as to why. Malcolm would prefer that Thea was estranged from her brother because she would then turn to him. |
| 482 | |
| 483 | [[/folder]] |
| 484 | |
| 485 | [[folder: Bus/Train collision in Time of Death]] |
| 486 | * The Clock King tried to draw Ollie off his bank heist by making a bus collide with a train by removing any way of signaling that the train was there, but everyone (including the bus driver) conveniently forgets that buses are usually legally required to stop for rail crossings whether there's a train there or not. There's also nothing preventing the driver from hearing the train's horn, which they're always legally required to blast when coming up to a crossing. |
| 487 | |
| 488 | [[/folder]] |
| 489 | |
| 490 | [[folder: Mister Blank: The master of WTF killing]] |
| 491 | |
| 492 | * In episode 20, Mister Blank killed his employer to prevent him from telling the police about him. There are only two problems. 1. How he killed him. The 'blood pressure' thing. What the heck was that? He popped an air bubble or something... And that killed him? How does that even work? His explanation is only something that he must have came up with. 2. He killed him... In a police building. The police will see a dead man, and they will want to know what happened. Police officers saw him! He's only making this worse on himself. |
| 493 | ** Air bubbles in the blood can cause fatal embolisms in the brain very very easily. Of course, it's not as easy to cause air bubbles in the blood as it was portrayed, but comic book science. |
| 494 | ** Okay, I can chalk it up to 'Sci Fi writers don't know much about real science', but why did he kill a man... In a police precinct. Just to prevent the guy from outing him. A dozen cops saw him. |
| 495 | ** They might have seen him but they would never connect him to the guy's death. As far as the medical examiner would be able to tell the guy would seem to have died from natural causes. |
| 496 | |
| 497 | [[/folder]] |
| 498 | |
| 499 | |
| 500 | [[folder: Oliver kidnapping Tommy in Hong Kong]] |
| 501 | |
| 502 | * So, in season 3 Oliver manages during one of his many attempts to run away from Waller, get access to a computer and attempt to write an e-mail that he's alive before Maseo shoots the computer and recapture Oliver. This apparently sets of an alert of some sort, that in turn alerts Tommy. He then heads to Hong Kong to look for his friend. This I sort of buy. Oliver is assigned to kill Tommy but refuses and instead kidnaps him and tells him he hacked the e-mail account to lure either Moria or Thea to Hong Kong for a ransom. Maseo then enters as a cop, frees Tommy and and most likely escort Tommy back to his hotel and airport. What I don't get is why Oliver didn't reveal himself then and there. Tommy could of made sure that a car was ready to take them both to the airport and have the private jet ready fly both of them home asap. |
| 503 | ** Because Amanda Waller tried to blow up a plane just to get one woman. You think she'd let them go? Even if she couldn't blow up the plane, she would have A.R.G.U.S agents kill Oliver and Tommy at the airport. Oliver isn't underestimating a woman who's respone to a criminal is 'Kill dozens of innocent people'. |
| 504 | |
| 505 | [[/folder]] |
| 506 | |
| 507 | [[folder:Malcolm Merlyn walking around in full view of the public.]] |
| 508 | * In "Midnight City," Merlyn gets out of a car in the alley near Verdant to talk to Thea, in full view of the public in broad daylight. There was at least one guy visible in the background. Isn't Merlyn widely known as the terrorist directly responsible for the deaths of hundreds of innocent people in the Glades a couple of years ago? Isn't he a hunted man? It's not like he is widely believed to be dead, is he? Oliver stabbed him and thought he had killed him, but it's not like Oliver announced that to the public or anything, and obviously Merlyn's body was never found. Doesn't the public believe Merlyn to be alive and at large? How can Merlyn just be walking around in full view of the public? |
| 509 | ** I believe it was stated that people think he died, so most people belive so. Besides, that guy was far away, and facing Malcom's back. For all we know, it could also have been an agent for him, making sure [[ProperlyParanoid that no Leauge of Assasin was stalking him]] |
| 510 | ** This is actually addressed in "The Magician". Merlyn meets Oliver in a crowded place because he knows that most people won't spare a couple of guys on the street a second glance, much less identify one of them as a terrorist who's supposed to be dead. |
| 511 | ** Merlyn's body ''was'' found - supposedly. There's a line in season 2 that says something like "I bet one of Merlyn's resources is lying in the city morgue." All the publicly-available evidence says he's dead, so he can get away with walking around in broad daylight as long as he doesn't overdo it. |
| 512 | ** There isn't much indication on exactly ''how'' famous Merlyn or Oliver actually are in universe. They are certainly recognizable to certain people but when Oliver goes to visit the Flash in Central City he doesn't seem to be getting the billionaire playboy attention you'd expect. In fact as far as we can tell only a handful of people recognize him at all. It's entirely possible that neither one of them are any more famous than your average millionaire/billionaire. People who walk in their circles would recognize them but not every rich person is Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. Undercover Boss runs on the fact that in many cases the owner of your company can walk right up to you and you wouldn't recognize him. He's at best a name you'd heard in passing. |
| 513 | ** As shown in the RealLife section of ClarkKenting, this sort of thing can easily happen even to famous people whose faces are well known. |
| 514 | [[/folder]] |
| 515 | |
| 516 | [[folder: Oliver and China White in Hong Kong.]] |
| 517 | * So in the flashbacks in "Midnight City", we see Oliver coming face to face with China White. We can easily assume China White didn't recognize him as the 'missing, presumed dead' billionaire playboy Oliver Queen. But, when she breaks into Laurel's house in "Honor Thy Father" and encounters Oliver, wouldn't she recognize him as the ARGUS agent she met in Hong Kong two and a half years back? Oliver doesn't look all that different in the present-day compared to how he looked in Hong Kong, so it shouldn't have been difficult for her to recognize. What's even more interesting is that China White is probably aware in the Hong Kong flashbacks that one of the ARGUS agents there was an archer. And 2.5 years later, in Starling City, the 'Hood' shows up and he's an archer as well. Shouldn't China White be able to easily put two and two together and figure out that Oliver Queen was the archer ARGUS agent in Hong Kong, and that he's now the Arrow? Isn't Oliver in the least concerned that China White could be aware of his identity? |
| 518 | ** China white was mostly focused with Maseo. In her head, Ollie is (and was) a plain simple Mook. It's been years since she met him, so she may have forgotten him. Along with that, she might think Maseo is the archer. |
| 519 | ** There is actually a shot when Oliver and China Whtie come face to face in Laurel's apartment and they both pause and China smiles at him like she recognizes him. There's also her telling him that "he's changed or she would be dead by now" when he caught her in season 2. Both small things that could have meant nothing at the time, but with the reveal that they have a history, these small things seem a lot more relevant. |
| 520 | [[/folder]] |
| 521 | |
| 522 | [[folder: Dig's lack of a mask]] |
| 523 | * So, despite regularly going out on the field with masked men, Diggle refuses to wear any sort of disguise. You'd think the police or criminals would be able to recognize reports of Diggle, identify him, and either go after him or Team Arrow. It's even more jarring since Dig did wear a ski mask in the Brother Eye episode. Why then and not any other times? Even if it's justified by not wanting to wear a costume, the ski mask at least is smarter than nothing at all. |
| 524 | ** Probably a comfort thing, since while he wore a mask then, he then quickly removed it once he no longer needed it. Most likely, people don't pay Diggle much thought since 'fairly tough, shaven-headed black dude' isn't a very distinctive appearance compared to 'hooded mysterious green-clad archer' or 'leather-clad blonde chick with sonic screaming thing', meaning he's not really memorable. Add in the fact Diggle isn't in the public limelight, few people would recognise him and be able to identify him. Hell, so far the only living person to see him up close who's still alive is Brick, who probably thought he was a cop or something. |
| 525 | ** He really doesn't need a mask, Oliver is the only one who probably needs a mask and that's because of his celebrity status. The people who Arrow runs into on bad terms fall into one of two categories, the low level thug who even with a picture of Diggle would be reduced to posting it on the internet and asking for help and the people who either already know who everybody is on Arrow's crew or if they don't it's simply because they don't care. |
| 526 | ** Dig is Oliver's body guard/driver. Which means he's on tv almost as much as Oliver. |
| 527 | ** Dare you when the next celebrity or someone equally as famous is followed on the news to be able to see/know their driver/bodyguard. |
| 528 | [[/folder]] |
| 529 | |
| 530 | [[folder:Lance and Secret Identities]] |
| 531 | * Detective Lance deduces that Roy is Arsenal almost immediately after seeing him. Yes, the moment is hilarious but it's frustrating how he can easily work that out, but yet he somehow cannot notice the fact that [[spoiler: his daughter is impersonating his other daughter, who unknown to him, is dead.]] What makes this even more confusing is that another character is able to tell the difference, but somehow he can't. |
| 532 | ** Lance's interactions with [[spoiler:the new Canary have so far been over the phone when her voice was manipulated to sound exactly like Sara and in person when she was shrouded in shadow on a fire escape while still sounding like Sara, not enough for him to deduce it isn't really her.]] |
| 533 | ** Sin also initially mistook Laurel for Sara. Once she got a better look at her (which Laurel has refused to give her father), she figured it out instantly. |
| 534 | ** On the subject of Roy - Lance knows that Roy Harper worked for the Arrow. During the Siege, he saw Roy wearing his red hoodie with a mask and shooting arrows. So obviously, he knows that Roy is Arsenal. Its pretty much stated outright that this is the rationale. |
| 535 | ** Also, once he's told straight up that Sara ''isn't'' the Canary they're seeing, he pretty much puts it together that Laurel is the one behind the mask now. And even before meeting Sin, he felt that something was off with the Canary. |
| 536 | [[/folder]] |
| 537 | |
| 538 | [[folder: Diggle constantly staying behind]] |
| 539 | |
| 540 | * Ok, in ''Midnight City'' and ''Uprising'' when [[spoiler: Oliver is presumed dead, in every mission Team Arrow goes on (rescuing kidnapped Aldermen, fighting Brick's men etc.) why is Diggle left behind while ''Laurel'' goes out to fight with Roy?]] I'm sorry but last time I checked Diggle was an experienced military soldier, with a background in special ops and has been fighting alongside Oliver for over two years. Laurel has....taken basic self-defence, done a few months of boxing lessons and [[spoiler: put on her sister's mask. Ok, you need at least two fighters. So let Diggle and Roy go as they're already established members of the team. ''Maybe'' Laurel could come along for back-up/training, but why on earth would she go ''instead'' of Diggle?]] |
| 541 | ** I think it's because of his daughter, since Oliver sidelined him in the beginning of the season because of her. He has only ever gone out in Season 3 when it was absolutely, 100% unavoidable or coincidental. Like when Oliver was dead but before Laurel stepped in, or when they were assaulting Brick full-on with the entire city. |
| 542 | |
| 543 | [[/folder]] |
| 544 | |
| 545 | [[folder:Waller in charge]] |
| 546 | |
| 547 | * How is a sociopath like Amanda Waller able to be in charge of an organization like A.R.G.U.S.? Why has the entire organization not simply rebelled against her? |
| 548 | ** Because they're trained to follow orders. And despite how extreme her actions are, they are all in order to protect the country. And even if they did rebel the government wouldn't stand for it. They clearly think her actions are appropriate or she wouldn't still be in charge. |
| 549 | ** And, as seen in ''Nanda Parbat'', Waller [[spoiler: isn't opposed to going behind her superiors' backs.]] In addition, in prior episodes, nobody seemed to object to her decisions. She likely only has agents who agree with her views. |
| 550 | |
| 551 | [[/folder]] |
| 552 | |
| 553 | [[folder: Why is the League of Assassin's (as well as Nyssa) so weak?]] |
| 554 | |
| 555 | * Nyssa al Ghul is the daughter of Ra's al Ghul, obviously. In a flashback of Malcolm Merlyn joining the League, he encounters what is obviously a young child Nyssa training and holding her own against grown men. It's pretty clear that since she was able to, she has been trained to fight, and it's very likely it was done by her father and it would be clear if that was the case, she would be just as skilled as him. As a result of this, shouldn't she be more skilled in fighting compared to Oliver and Malcolm? Yet Oliver has overpowered her almost every time they fight and even Merlyn can hold her own on him despite her having many years of training on the both of them. And any member of the League are shown to be easy to take down, despite the fact they are trained and specialized killers. |
| 556 | ** The first is fairly simple, Nyssa was training, not fighting. As soon as Merlyn enters she turns her back on the fight so how much she was holding her own is very much up to debate. It's unlikely she'd be as skilled as him, especially if this is supposed to be the immortal Ra's and since the Arrowverse contains at least one miracle drug and multiple metahumans the Lazarus Pit may be in play meaning Ra's is hundreds of years old to Nyssa's twenty or thirty something. While this doesn't often come into play in works of fiction the reality is that Merlyn and Oliver are both males, she's giving up probably sixty pounds or more to both men, and considerable reach. There is a very good reason for weight classes and it's basically that it takes a lot of skill to get past someone who's simply larger than you. Finally while it doesn't explain Merlyn, Oliver was trained by Slade and Shadow to be a warrior, the League of Assassins could very well be formally trained as assassins first and warriors only in desperation. Almost all of their successful attacks have been what you'd expect from assassins. They don't fight you because there is no fight if they get the drop on you. |
| 557 | ** Episode 3-15 confirms that Ra's does have a Lazarus Pit. Whether or not the pool he was soaking in was the actual pit he claims to have met a magician in 1854 which makes him at present a minimum one hundred and sixty plus years old. |
| 558 | |
| 559 | [[/folder]] |
| 560 | |
| 561 | [[folder: Why didn't Merlyn issue the combat challenge?]] |
| 562 | * Since Oliver was able to issue it clearly being part of the League is not a requisite of issuing the challenge. From what we've seen Merlyn would fare far better than Oliver since he is trained in swordplay, he'd still lose but being stabbed through the heart sounds vastly preferable to what Ra's seems to have in mind. |
| 563 | ** Because he's trying to avoid dying altogether. He's desperately grasping at whatever small chance he can find to stay alive. |
| 564 | |
| 565 | [[/folder]] |
| 566 | |
| 567 | [[folder: Arrest Warrant]] |
| 568 | * Lance may have believed Ra's when the latter told him Oliver was the Arrow, but he has ZERO hard evidence connecting Oliver Queen to the Arrow that he can take before a judge to obtain a warrant. He doesn't even have a hint of probable cause. Let's not forget the fact that Oliver was already cleared of being the Arrow over two years ago (after being wrongfully arrested by Lance himself!). Taking all this into account, it would logically have been near-impossible for him to legally take any steps against Oliver Queen. |
| 569 | ** Did he actually get the warrant? He said he was seeking it, and was preparing the police, but Oliver just turned himself in. Even if he did get the warrant, it couldn't have been too hard to find a judge willing to look into it based on the Lance's word, considering he's been working with the Arrow for a while. It would probably open the judge up to a countersuit if Oliver turned out to be innocent, but Lance would know which judges would be willing to take that risk, especially since he can be very convincing when he wants to be. It's ArtisticLicenseLaw, sure, but Starling City has been kinda playing fast and loose with its own laws ever since vigilantes started running around. |
| 570 | ** Well, he probably got a warrant, considering that cops actually showed up at Verdant to arrest Oliver and Felicity mentions how he apparently got Thea's assets 'frozen'. Also its doubtful he'd have announced Oliver's name on TV if he couldn't legally arrest him - that would have been defamation in all probability. Again, ArtisticLicenseLaw is probably the best explanation, though getting everyone on the "Arrest Oliver Queen" bandwagon so quickly doesn't make a lot of sense within the context of the show's narrative either. |
| 571 | ** He only needed the cops on his side, and even then he only needed to convince them enough to ''arrest'' him. It's not like he was giving them secret orders to kill him on "accident." We don't really see what the rest of city thought, but the newscaster announcing everything seemed a little bit confused about the whole ordeal, not just Oliver being the Arrow (she even mentions his arrest and exoneration back in season 1), but also about the Arrow being hunted in the first place. |
| 572 | |
| 573 | [[/folder]] |
| 574 | |
| 575 | [[folder: Arrow's fault masks started]] |
| 576 | * During Lance's anti-Oliver rant, he briefly blames him for Merlyn and Slade's attacks; while Slade WAS Oliver's fault (albeit only in a victim blaming sort of way), Merlyn was already going to go and attack the city, and without Oliver the damage would have been greater ''and'' come without warning or indication of who was at fault (after all, if Ollie hadn't convinced his mom to reveal it to the public, most would think it was just a freak earthquake). He also then blames him for the League and even the Flash, even though the former had existed prior to him while the latter gained his powers and costume independently as well, the only connection to Oliver being the two met by chance prior and became friends. Basically, Lance's reasoning falls apart rather quickly and is very easy to break apart, so its bugging me that no-one in universe used this to make him see sense. |
| 577 | ** Yep. Lance is simply in a mood to blame Oliver for everything. Now, in fairness, Oliver ''is'' closely connected to each of these events; the Undertaking created the Arrow rather than the other way around, but Slade was technically Ollie's fault (as noted), the Flash has been seen working with the Arrow so it's not hard to jump to the conclusion that they're connected (they are; Barry was inspired by Ollie), in hindsight it's easy to assume that Sara was inspired to use her assassin skills as a vigilante due to the Arrow (not ''quite'' true, it was actually a natural outgrowth of protecting Sin, but again it's a logical conclusion), Roy and Laurel ''definitely'' were, and the ATOM also was (though Lance has no proof of that right now). The problem is that Oliver has always been angsty, and is pretty clearly in full-on martyr mode. If anyone else was there, they would have defended Ollie on every single one of those points, and would have been insistent that Oliver has done far more good than harm. But Oliver wasn't in a mood to defend himself, and Lance wasn't in a mood to listen even if he was. Note when Lance demands to know when Oliver decided he knew what was best for Lance's family. Laurel would have been quick to refute that hiding everything from her father was her idea, but Ollie just said "I love your family" and got slapped for it. |
| 578 | ** From Lance's perspective, or indeed the perspective of anyone in Starling who isn't in the know, its easy to consciously or unconsciously associate the Arrow with the Undertaking, the Siege and other crises (such as the Copycat Hoods, Vertigo, Huntress etc.) simply because all of these things happened only after the Arrow first showed up. It doesn't matter that Malcolm Merlyn had been planning the Undertaking for two decades and that his actions led to the origin of the Arrow rather than the other way round, it doesn't matter that Helena would have been killing her father's men even without Oliver helping her, it doesn't matter that Vertigo would still have been on the streets - from the perspective of the ordinary guy on the street, or even the cops and other authorities, all this happened only once the Arrow showed up, so its easy to blame him for all of it. Its basically the SuperheroParadox, a common enough trope in superhero stories. |
| 579 | ** Something of relevance: Earlier in Season 3 we found out that before Oliver, Ted Grant fought crime in Starling City as a vigilante similar to the Arrow, but with boxing. Given this, shouldn't the existence of superheroes/supervillains be traced back to him, instead, since he predates the Arrow? |
| 580 | ** No, because it's mentioned that he was never very well-known. Crime wasn't as bad, he didn't last as long, and he confined himself to fighting petty crooks. Oliver started with one-percenters and with flashier exploits, both of which are much more likely to make the news. The first thing he did was expose a corrupt businessman while stealing all his money and giving it back to the people it was stolen from in the first place. The media ''loves'' that kind of thing, while Wild Kat would have just been a footnote. "Some woman in the Glades claims she was saved by a masked vigilante. In other news, Oliver Queen showed up drunk at a party..." |
| 581 | * Its also true that aside from the Undertaking, technically everything that happened after was connected to Oliver. Slade only came to Starling to destroy Oliver, Oliver told Barry to try and be the Flash, and the League only came to Starling to kill Malcolm, and since Oliver's protecting him they continued, and after surging his fight Ra's wanted him to be his heir. So while Lance ''is'' technically right about that all after the Undertaking were directly or indirectly caused by Oliver, it's not nearly as negatively as he's portraying it, with only the League situation arguably fitting Quentins quota. |
| 582 | |
| 583 | [[/folder]] |
| 584 | |
| 585 | [[folder:Oliver/Laurel/Tommy Friendship]] |
| 586 | |
| 587 | * How exactly does Laurel know Oliver and Tommy? It's just vaguely stated that they're childhood friends and when Laurel becomes the prosecutor in Moira's case it's stated that she "practically grew up in the Queens' mansion". Oliver and Tommy are both sons of wealthy families that have close relationships, but Laurel is the daughter of a detective and a college professor who wouldn't by far be able to provide her with a lifestyle that overlapped with the others. |
| 588 | ** Oliver and Tommy probably went to public school, to learn how to talk with people. |
| 589 | ** They did actually go to public school, as established in the Season 1 episode "Damaged". Laurel mentions how on ''their'' eighth grade field trip they visited Iron Heights. |
| 590 | ** It seems unlikely Oliver and Tommy went to public school, maybe Laurel attended their private school somehow and met them there. It's mentioned Dinah married Quentin against her parents' wishes, so maybe they were wealthier, disliked Quentin's middle class profession and paid for private school for their grandchildren. Or maybe Laurel was on a scholarship as she's portrayed as pretty intelligent. Or Quentin and Dinah scraped together to give Laurel the best education possible. That would explain a lot of Laurel's characterization: Pushiness, arrogance, workaholic nature, originally going to take the fancy San Francisco lawyer job, even her slight GoldDigger tendencies (planning a life with Oliver even though he was cheating on her etc.). Going to a private school, she grew up feeling slightly inferior and out of place and so is always fighting to be the best. Maybe she attached herself to Oliver and Tommy because they were the cool kids and/or the type of people she aspired to be. Even explains how she's always forcing herself into Team Arrow, she sees them as yet another elite group she wants to be part of. |
| 591 | *** Your analysis of Laurel's character is a bit exaggerated. Along with "Damaged", the next episode "Legacies" revealed Laurel went to high school with Oliver, Tommy, and the also rich Carter Bowen. A Season 1 tie-in comic further confirmed she and Sara went to a private high school. From personal experience, it's not uncommon for children of families who are at least a little above middle-class to attend private secondary school for its education quality. It makes perfect sense for Laurel and Sara to do this, and Laurel is especially implied to have been an academically successful student. Whether she attended private school from middle or high school, I can see her having been classmates with Oliver and Tommy, which is how she befriended them. |
| 592 | [[/folder]] |
| 593 | |
| 594 | [[folder:Why Doesn't Oliver Simply Disband The League?]] |
| 595 | * Ra's tells Oliver from the start that as soon as he takes over he can command the league to do whatever he wants, so why doesn't Oliver accept the offer, then tell the League "you're done." Or another way of ending it for good. Hell he could excommunicate every single member. Also, before anyone tells me that would leave hundreds of assassins running around the world... what the hell can he do about that even in his present state? Oliver can't be everywhere, and say he didn't want to risk it, he could command them all to commit suicide in droves if he wanted to. |
| 596 | ** Because Ra's isn't instantly handing over command. If Oliver takes the offer, then he becomes his heir, which means it's going to be at least a few years, quite likely decades, before Oliver is given full command. It's possible that Oliver could remain uncorrupted that entire time and promptly disband the League (or even just order them to switch to pacifism), but neither Ra's nor Oliver thinks that's likely. They're both assuming that by the time he's in charge, he'll have been convinced of the League's utility and will be back to killing again. |
| 597 | ** Indeed. Ra's says he'll become the leader, but Ra's still has to 'teach' Oliver. Besides, even if Oliver says no killing, that doesn't mean one of them won't kill him, and take leadership as the new demon. In fact, if Oliver even ordered them to prevent the killing of people one of them would probably kill him, because he 'insults' the 'honor' of the League. Ra's probably knows that and lied to Oliver, to make the deal sound better. |
| 598 | ** Considering that, as off "Al Saheem" (3x21), we've learned that Ra's is brainwashing Oliver to become a ruthless assassin/terrorist leader like himself, the whole idea that Oliver could remake the League in his own image is revealed to be a lie of Ra's. Oliver cannot change the League, because he himself is first being changed into Ra's al Ghul... literally through their behavior modification program. |
| 599 | ** It wasn't ''quite'' a lie; both Ra's and Oliver knew it was MetaphoricallyTrue. Yes, once Oliver is the new Ra's he can do whatever he likes with the League, including switch them to pacifism. The unsaid but very clearly implied part was that Oliver wouldn't want to do that by the time he was in charge. He probably wasn't expecting the brainwashing to be quite so literal, but he knew this was coming in general. |
| 600 | |
| 601 | [[/folder]] |
| 602 | |
| 603 | [[folder:Roy in Prison]] |
| 604 | * What in the High Holy Hell was Lance thinking letting Roy be kept in gen pop at Iron Heights? He knew Roy was just taking the fall for Oliver, and he ''had'' to know that there were a million guys at Iron Heights just begging for a chance to murder the Arrow. Why didn't he insist that Roy be kept isolated from the other prisoners? Especially after he was attacked the first time. Hell, Laurel should have been up his ass from the start ''demanding'' that Roy be placed in protective custody. |
| 605 | ** To add on to that - Quentin knowing that Roy is 'innocent' isn't even a factor here. As a matter of course, the authorities should have placed Roy in protective custody. Since it would pretty much be a given that the Arrow's life would be in danger in gen pop, among people he'd helped put away. Remember, one is innocent until proven guilty - even with the confession of being the Arrow, Roy was yet to be proven guilty in the mayor's murder, so at the very ''least'', he should have been kept in protective custody till his trial (and by any civilized legal standard, even later...even someone on death row deserves protection from violent attacks of other prisoners). |
| 606 | [[/folder]] |
| 607 | |
| 608 | [[folder:Quentin's Vendetta]] |
| 609 | * Quentin blames Oliver for why Sara got killed. He's always rationalizing that if Sara never got on the boat with Oliver, she never would have ended up on Lian Yu or found by the League of Assassins, which subsequently lead to a life of vigilantism that got her killed. Did no one bother to tell him that Malcolm Merlyn rigged the boat with bombs in with the intent of killing everyone on board? Or that Malcolm was still alive, in Starling City, and the one who had Sara killed? If Quentin really wants revenge wouldn't he want both Oliver and Malcolm behind bars? The whole "no prison can hold him" factor notwithstanding, you would think he would try to arrest Malcolm considering his involvement with the Undertaking is public knowledge now. |
| 610 | ** I'm not sure Lance knows that Malcolm Merlyn is in Starling City, or even that he's still alive. Though as to your question, it would not surprise me if no one had ever told Lance that Malcolm was behind the sinking of the Queen's Gambit. Team Arrow's obsession with secret keeping is starting to get rather ridiculous. It's getting very hard to blame Lance for being mad about how much is being kept from him. |
| 611 | ** Quentin DOES know that Malcolm had the Gambit blown up (it was revealed at Moira's trial). He ''doesn't'' know that Malcolm is still alive, in Starling City, was responsible for Sara's death and is living under ''Oliver's protection'' no less. And if he found out, ''that'' would be something that would truly justify his vendetta. Under the current circumstances...not so much. |
| 612 | ** This is all made a moot point by the simple fact that ''Sara chose to go on the Gambit''. She made that decision herself, and Oliver cannot be reasonably held responsible for it. |
| 613 | ** It's true that Sara made her own choice but Oliver is the one who invited her on his private boat while long-term dating her sister, he didn't die, and Lance has seen far less evidence of his suffering than Sara's. This is a father's personal feelings, not anything that has to hold up in court or be fair. |
| 614 | * This all becomes extremely egregious when you remember back in Season 1 (I think, it's been a while but I know it was in the beginning of/before 2) that Dinah, Quentin's ex-wife and Sara and Laurel's mother, admitted that she had ''seen'' Sara packing to go on the Gambit, ''knew'' that she was going on it...and let her, allowing her to go and cheat on her sister's boyfriend. Yet Quentin still blames Oliver. Is this ever going to get picked up on? |
| 615 | [[/folder]] |
| 616 | [[folder:Diggle's Military Background]] |
| 617 | * Not so much a problem, but a genuine question: What outfit was Diggle in while in the military? We know he was army and that he was a three-tour "special forces" vet. But special forces is a catch-all term for what the military calls "special operations forces." The show hasn't said what outfit he was with. The capital letter Special Forces is more commonly known as the Green Berets. If he's drawn from the army, he can't be a Navy SEAL or Marine Force Recon. In the flashbacks we see him escort a high-value warlord, so maybe he's a Green Beret, who work with locals and whatnot. But for a high-value target, that could also be more JSOC-related, like Delta Force. Did anyone get a look at his uniform patches? |
| 618 | ** Well, he did do multiple tours. It's possible he was a Green Beret, then switched to Delta Force. |
| 619 | ** During the Christmas party his tone when the marines doing guard duty are called "army" implies he was a marine. It's the same tone every marine has when you call them army. |
| 620 | ** In his very first appearance, Oliver asks him if he was ex-military. Diggle's response was "5th Airborne out of Kandahar". |
| 621 | [[/folder]] |
| 622 | [[folder:The League's Purpose]] |
| 623 | * Something that has really bothered me about the League more and more as the series progresses - what the hell do they do? Why do they exist? Ra's never really states an overall goal or mission. So far they kidnap and/or kill innocent people, rip people away from their loved ones and brainwash them to cause untold harm to even more people (nevermind the reveal at the end of "Al Sah-him"!) At the moment Ra's seems to just do whatever he likes, because he can, for his own selfish reasons. At least the League in Batman Begins (the only one I've been exposed to) made an effort to justify their genocide with a "greater good" argument but so far in Arrow nothing like that has been shown. And they don't get called out for it! It makes it very difficult to see them as more than one-dimensional antagonists. |
| 624 | ** Their goals are twofold: Assassinate people (possibly under contract from interested parties like governments), and provide a place for broken men and women to receive training and acceptance in exchange for loyalty. The problem is that in the show we've only seen them acting in direct relation to internal League matters. They were after Sara because she left without permission (which is illegal), they were after Malcolm because he tried to destroy the city without permission (which is illegal), so on and so forth. We've never actually seen them acting "normal." |
| 625 | ** In "Sara" (3x02), we're told that Sara was once sent by a League to assassinate executives from an oil corporation, which sounds like the kind of eco-terrorism the League was known to indulge in in the classic comics, though there could be any number of motives. Sara also claims to have once killed a diplomat so its clear that geo-politics is very much an area where the League operates. Also, going simply by what Ra's said, the League's basic purpose is to serve the mission of whoever is Ra's al Ghul - but given that we now know that whoever is Ra's al Ghul has been conditioned into becoming like his/her predecessor, its likely that this 'mission' is a permanent League mission passed on from Ra's to Ra's, having nothing to do with the individual per se. |
| 626 | ** Oh, right...that makes a whole more sense. Examining them as just a mercenary organisation (albeit an ancient one steeped in its own traditions) has made some of their actions a lot clearer. I was just trying to see them as more noble than they actually are, clearly. I appreciate the new perspective! |
| 627 | ** They don't appear to be a 'mercenary organization' per se. More like a secret society (though perhaps not THAT secret given that Nyssa was on the ARGUS Wanted List in Season 2) that seeks to secretly manipulate events and/or take action in pursuit of what Ra's believes is the perfect world. Imagine Team Arrow operating on a global scale with hundreds of operatives and absolutely no respect for any legal, political or social authority. |
| 628 | ** Basically, they're a mercenary organization/cult that wants to save the world. |
| 629 | ** Their purpose was made somewhat clearer in the ''Arrow Season 2.5'' comic. There was a back-up story focused on The Suicide Squad, who were sent into a war-torn region to deal with a religious fanatic who had kidnapped the students of a girl's private school as "brides" for his men. Nyssa and Sara were shown as being in the same region, working towards the same purpose, albeit with more of a focus on rescuing the girls. Indeed, they recruit one of the girls - who was actively fighting her captors - as a new Assassin and we later see that character as one of Nyssa's attendants in Season Three of the show. Ra's gives her the name Talibah - "Seeker Of Knowledge". |
| 630 | |
| 631 | |
| 632 | [[/folder]] |
| 633 | |
| 634 | [[folder:Katana's Costume]] |
| 635 | * Whilst Oliver is in Hong Kong, Tatsu is shown fighting skillfully with her blade. Following the incident, Tatsu retreats to a monastery for the next five years, until she is drawn out by Oliver. When she returns, Tatsu is dressed in full battle gear, including the half-Japanese mask for the sole purpose of invading Nanda Parbat. Where did she come up with this costume? They don't even bother to handwave it. |
| 636 | ** Well, we know the sword was a family heirloom, so it's possible costume is as well. Obviously it wouldn't have been made for here, but she could easily just attach the armor pieces onto a different suit and refit the mask (or have a new one made). |
| 637 | |
| 638 | |
| 639 | [[/folder]] |
| 640 | |
| 641 | [[folder:The American military in Hong Kong?]] |
| 642 | |
| 643 | * Of all things that I had a hard time grasping is why the American military would have a unit in the Hong Kong [=SAR=] since the [=PLA=] has a Hong Kong garrison and even then, the Security Bureau would turn to the Hong Kong Police Force and the garrison and not some foreign military unit there... Kinda weird. |
| 644 | ** Could be LOOSELY based on the idea of the U.S. naval pier in Hong Kong's Wan Chai. Though that's really just a waystation for incoming sailors to grab some McD's and US magazines/videos during the '80s and '90s. Even though the naval pier is still open, the U.S. navy mostly just opts to port at Tsim Tsa Tsui. |
| 645 | |
| 646 | [[/folder]] |
| 647 | |
| 648 | [[folder:Is Diggle still the official, paid bodyguard for Ollie?]] |
| 649 | |
| 650 | * Or how else does he make a living? |
| 651 | ** Either Ollie pays him with his remaining money, or Diggle has Lyla give him money. |
| 652 | ** In the last issue of the original tie-in comic series, set just after the events of the Season 1 finale, Oliver gives Diggle and Felicity a million dollars each in severance pay before he leaves Starling...so presumably Diggle still has that money. Then again, seeing as Felicity actually needed to work at the Tech Village at the start of Season 3, its possible the canonicity of that can be disputed. In any case, Lyla had a job (at least until 3x17), and Diggle probably gets an Army pension. |
| 653 | [[/folder]] |
| 654 | |
| 655 | [[folder:Still married?]] |
| 656 | |
| 657 | * Are Oliver and Nyssa still married? Cause if so, that sounds like the basis to a hilarious new sitcom, 'Living with the Arrow's'. Diggle can be the token black guy, Felicity can be the cute nerd, Ra's can be the disapproving father, Thea can be the spunky kid, and Oliver and Nyssa can bicker at each other all the time. Somehow, that sounds a lot like Season 3 in a nut shell. |
| 658 | ** Nanda Parbat's legal status is highly questionable, the union was under duress on both sides, they never consummated the marriage, and it's doubtful Ra's filed the paperwork. At worst, they can get an annulment. It seems like Oliver and Nyssa are just ignoring it, since it was a farce from the start anyway. |
| 659 | ** We aren't ''shown'' the wedding being consummated, but seeing as Oliver was willing to execute people in order to maintain his cover, him going through with consummation isn't out of the question. Nyssa turning up pregnant in Season 4 would certainly add an extra dose of soapy melodrama. |
| 660 | ** Nyssa's appearance in season 4's "Restoration" is pregnancy-free (and it's set 6 months after the finale of season 3, so no off-screen delivery). However, she does refer to Thea as her sister-in-law. If Oliver did get an annulment, Nyssa doesn't seem to know. |
| 661 | ** Or she's just joking. Nyssa has a very dry sense of humor. |
| 662 | ** Nope. She seems to take the whole marriage seriously. So, now I must ask the real question... How will the divorce go? Will Oliver have to do a bunch of humiliating tasks to get divorced? (Drive her around town, paint her toenails, eliminate her enemies) Will Nyssa just go 'Okay' but they get interrupted? Who will do it? That's the real question. |
| 663 | --->'''Lawyer:''' Okay, so who are you two?\ |
| 664 | '''Nyssa:''' Daughter of the demon, one of the most deadly women to ever walk the face of the planet, and former leader of the most dangerous guild of assassins ever to exist. \ |
| 665 | '''Oliver:''' It was a shotgun wedding.\ |
| 666 | '''Nyssa:''' More like an Arrow wedding. |
| 667 | ** Oliver specifically mentioned that they were married in the eyes of the League, implying that they were ''only'' married in the eyes of the League. Oliver is just trying to ignore it, but Nyssa is too honor-bound to do so. [[spoiler:However, with the destruction of the League, the marriage is likely annulled along with all other League promises and bonds]]. |
| 668 | [[/folder]] |
| 669 | |
| 670 | [[folder:Plot armor?]] |
| 671 | |
| 672 | * Nyssa states that the league armor is what kept the numerous sniper rifle bullets from killing Oliver. But yet swords and arrows easily pierce through every Tom, Dick and Sally the team fight against whenever opposite the League. Maybe I'm just lacking a true understanding of the strength of arrows as opposed to bullets, but I don't get this at all. |
| 673 | ** This is actually a very real problem with armor. Armor for blocking bullets is built very differently than armor for blocking arrows/swords. A Kevlar vest can stop a bullet, but an arrow shreds right through it. Presumably, while the League still prefers primitive weapons, they were willing to upgrade their armor against modern weapons, since that's what most of their enemies use. This backfired when they fought people using the same kind of weapons they did. |
| 674 | |
| 675 | [[/folder]] |
| 676 | |
| 677 | [[folder: Roy as the Arrow makes no sense]] |
| 678 | |
| 679 | * As much as Roy's sacrifice worked well on an emotional level and plot-wise (especially in terms of [[spoiler: Oliver's retirement of the 'Arrow' identity and Thea becoming Speedy]]), it barely stands scrutiny when one examines the facts. By the end of Season 3, the authorities (barring Quentin Lance of course) are convinced that Roy Harper was the Arrow and is now deceased. But despite all the faked evidence and Roy's confession, they (and the rest of Starling City, especially the media) really ought to know better. Consider these facts:\ |
| 680 | \ |
| 681 | Roy's confession states that he set up his base under his girlfriend's club (and that presumably means that he claims to have embezzled Thea's money to fund the operation). But even the most cursory investigation would reveal that the Arrow was active for months before Thea took over the club or before Roy even MET Thea (indeed, Thea and Laurel got Roy ARRESTED when they first met him... so it's on the record that they didn't know each other before). So how did they suppose Roy was funding the crusade for the months before that? He was a petty thief at best who lived in a dump... where'd they suppose he got the money for compound bows and other equipment, not to mention, where did he pick up martial arts and archery skills?\ |
| 682 | \ |
| 683 | Roy was arrested at least once for acting as a vigilante, in Season 2. That's also on record. Why would Roy Harper spend months fighting crime ineffectively as himself if he was the Arrow? Why would he allow himself to get arrested? \ |
| 684 | \ |
| 685 | And here's the kicker...\ |
| 686 | \ |
| 687 | The Arrow RESCUED Roy Harper! Practically on live television! Back in Season 1, Roy was kidnapped by the Savior and the Arrow saved him.\ |
| 688 | \ |
| 689 | At best, the police can conclude that Roy was a protegee of an 'original' Arrow whom he took over from (which semantics aside is pretty close to the truth)... but that would mean this original Arrow is still at large officially...They can hardly conclude that the case is closed. |
| 690 | ** Most likely, they can assume/claim that 'The Hood' and 'The Arrow' were two different people (the lack of killing, differing bow, and more varied trick arrows help with that), and Roy/'The Arrow' picked up the role after the Hood died during the Undertaking. While the fact he has a near-identical costume might be suspicious, the differences between the outfit between S1 and S3 (the mask, plus Cisco's upgrades) and the fact the League recreated the costume with little difficulty, and the Hoods had no problem fashioning their own versions. Plus, it's not so much a matter of proving without-a-doubt he was The Arrow, it's providing enough clout that one can't say without-a-doubt that Oliver is the real Arrow, which to be honest, Lance had such little evidence to back up his accusations ('a man in a back alley and his army of ninjas told me!' is not sufficient evidence to serve in court without a confession), that Felicity could have confessed to being The Arrow and it'd be enough. |
| 691 | ** There's also the fact that Roy was never exactly high-profile. Sure, he was rescued by the Arrow from the Savior, but it's doubtful anyone would recognize his name or face from that, and Felicity could have easily used her HollywoodHacking to delete any public videos if necessary (again, assuming anyone made the connection in the first place). And as for money, Roy was a thief. He can easily say he bankrolled the operation with stolen goods early on. But as noted, the point was less to create an airtight "Roy Harper is the Arrow" case and more to cut through the ''really flimsy'' "Oliver Queen is the Arrow" case long enough to snap Ollie out of martyr mode. Since the case never got to court, no one really had a chance to think about the evidence much. As far as they're concerned, the case is closed, and if a new Arrow shows up later (when Oliver inevitably returns in season 4), it will be a copycat. |
| 692 | ** Additionally, Oliver Queen intentionally created many of these same problems for himself with his plan to get arrested back in Season 1, meaning that in the Arrowverse someone would have logically commented online at some point about this discrepancy, and at trial it would have seriously done damage to the case. In fact, there's literally no chance in hell Oliver would have been found guilty even after all of that, because Captain Lance taints it all. His personal vendetta and close relationship to Oliver would mean that no matter how strong the evidence was, the case would still fall apart on constitutional grounds. In fact, the same goes for Roy's case logically, only with the additional problem that the police captain that captured him doesn't believe he's the Arrow. And even then, he's still Oliver's sister's boyfriend, so the case is still tainted. |
| 693 | |
| 694 | [[/folder]] |
| 695 | |
| 696 | [[folder: The title of Ra's]] |
| 697 | * So... Oliver is pretty much grasping the IdiotBall here. He passes the bloody mantle of the head of the League of Assassins to a man who didn't mind putting his daughter in harm's way, a man who's obviously deranged and friggle-fraggling sociopathic? Oh, that definitely cannot go wrong. Nope. So, instead of using his newfound power to get a huge taskforce of League members to capture and kill (or, fine, imprison) Merlyn, and then disband the League... he goes for the option that will most probably lead to loads of death and destruction? Gee, Ollie. We know why Starling loves you so much right now. |
| 698 | ** Disbanding the League would never actually work, as discussed above (he would just be deposed). Besides that, Malcolm and Oliver had a deal: Malcolm gets to be Ra's in exchange for helping save Starling ([[spoiler:Sara's resurrection is also implied to be part of the deal]]). Oliver is clearly worried about what Ra's is planning, and implies he'll be coming to visit if he does anything too terrible, but there needs to be a Ra's, and the League would only accept Oliver or Malcolm. Plus his new right hand, Nyssa, will be more than happy to put an arrow through his eye if he starts going too crazy. Yes, this could blow up very easily. But Malcolm is a shrewd businessman and warrior, making him a good Ra's, and there are enough failsafes in place that handing him the power isn't the worst thing ever. |
| 699 | ** It also gives Malcolm a purpose, one that will leave him little time to continue to meddle in Thea's, and by extension, the rest of Team Arrow's, lives. |
| 700 | ** Plus Malcolm might be a dick, but he's not Slade Wilson or HIVE. There's no reason he should go crazy and kill everyone. The only time he did that he targeted only a section of the city and only because he thought it would fix the city. It's not like he was Ra's or Slade, who wanted to destroy the entire city. Wait a minute. Why the hell was him destroying The Glades a problem with the League? Apparently to become Ra's you're supposed to destroy the place you come from. So logically, if Malcolm had become Ra's the normal way, he would have destroyed MORE than just The Glades. So... what the hell? |
| 701 | ** Alternatively, Oliver could've done the smart thing and double crossed Malcolm and given Nyssa control of the League. Nyssa takes out Malcolm for them and then takes Sara's body back to Nanda Parbat. With Malcolm dead, she has no further reason to bother them. Problem solved and Malcolm gets what's coming to him. |
| 702 | ** That's making the assumption that the League would even follow Nyssa. The fact that they all kneel before Malcolm even though given their connections some of them had to have witnessed the fight they seem to take the prophesy fairly seriously. Malcolm has been in exile and none of them hesitate at all to kneel when he commands it. That may not have gone well for anybody involved. Even if this worked without a hitch Nyssa is only slightly less amoral than Malcolm from what we've seen and she has no reason to bother them, but also no reason to help. If nothing else Malcolm has proven that you shoot up a flare and declare Thea Queen is in trouble and he'll brave an army of super soldiers without hesitation or backup. Now he's got an army. All around this might not only have been the only move period it's no where near as bad as has been made out. |
| 703 | ** This of course completely ignores Nyssa's character developement during the end of Season 3 and Malcom rescuing Thea being solely to manipulate her to later assassinating Sara. DracoInLeatherPants indeed. |
| 704 | ** In order to attain the title of Ra's one has to prove to be the greatest warrior of the League. Nyssa fails on that subject since she has lost to both Merlyn AND Oliver! And again, there's the PropheciesAreAlwaysRight issue... |
| 705 | [[/folder]] |
| 706 | |
| 707 | [[folder:What was the point of The List?]] |
| 708 | * So, before Malcolm proposed his Undertaking idea, he and several other Starling City elites were trying to reduce crime in the Glades by blackmailing corrupt businessmen into funding various community improvement programs. Except at least two of the people involved in this conspiracy were ''billionaires'', and the rest were presumably quite wealthy as well. Why did they need to resort to blackmail to fund their pet project when they have literally billions of dollars at their disposal? |
| 709 | ** They were billionaires, but they didn't have unlimited funds. If they tried to do it the normal way (in fact, it's implied they did try it the normal way first), then all the corrupt businessmen would be fighting them every single step of the way, costing them money and time that could be better spent elsewhere. By blackmailing and recruiting the worst, they saved money and eliminated their biggest problems at the same time. It's the exact sort of ruthlessly efficient plan a bunch of angry businessmen would come up with. |
| 710 | [[/folder]] |
| 711 | |
| 712 | [[folder:How is Starling more dangerous than Central?]] |
| 713 | * The Brave And The Bold made a point of drilling into our heads that Starling City is darker and more real than Central City... Why? Because the villains use guns? Barry had already fought a man who could create tornadoes, a one man army, a cloud of poisonous gas, a soldier who could turn things she touched into explosives, a man made of metal, and a man who could project lightning. Because Boomerang already had a vendetta against Lyla and no one was smart enough to leave a combatant to protect her the Foundry? Because Barry doesn't treat heroics like a chore? |
| 714 | ** There are a lot of reasons such as the motives and scope of the villains. Most Starling villains are dangerous to the masses, most Central villains are dangerous to a fairly small group of generally unsympathetic victims. In the end Starling appears to be modeled after Detroit or Chicago. It's a dangerous city on a good day. Central appears to be Seattle or something similar and aside from the occasional metahuman is a safe city to live in. |
| 715 | ** Exactly. While it's easy to ''imagine'' metahumans causing WMD-levels of damage, notice that they never actually do so. Heck, most of them never even killed anybody while they were active. Meanwhile the Arrow goes up against mobsters, serial killers, and infamous international assassins; guys with personal body counts in the double or even triple digits. There's a certain boldness to the Starling criminal underground that obviously doesn't exist in Barry's home town. Central City would never grow a gang leader like the Mayor, or a cult leader like Brother Blood. Frankly, the people of Starling City should fall to their knees and praise Jesus that Dr. Wells didn't build his particle accelerator in their city. And speaking of Wells, while the Reverse-Flash is certainly more powerful than Deathstroke and any other Big Bad of Arrow except maybe Damian Dahrke, his motivation was all about going home rather than take over or kill everyone in the city. Reverse-Flash's body count in the whole first season is probably under 10 while the smallest loss of life for a Big Bad mass-attack incident was 26 when Ra's Al Ghul tried to contaminate the city. |
| 716 | ** It's a lot to do with the inherent natures of the two cities, long before Green Arrow or the Flash respectively first showed up. Starling City was always a cesspool of crime and corruption - with criminals and street gangs terrorizing the Glades and corrupt businessmen and mobsters ruling and terrorizing the rest of the city. Central City, in contrast, was always the relatively brighter, more optimistic city, with great centers of scientific excellence such as STAR Labs and Mercury Labs, and a relatively lower crime rate. Once you throw 'masks' and their enemies into the mix, it makes sense for these cities to evolve in very different ways, based on their past histories. |
| 717 | [[/folder]] |
| 718 | |
| 719 | [[folder:The SCPD should not be that skilled '''(Unmarked SPOILERS for S4E4)''']] |
| 720 | * So in Season 4, Episode 4, it is revealed that a group of vigilantes going around killing gangs is actually composed of members of the disbanded Vigilante Task Force. They're using high-tech weapons, so it makes sense that they could take down Diggle and block Laurel's Canary Cry. But Liza Warner should ''not'' be able to block Oliver's arrows, even if she has bladed gauntlets. Is this just RuleOfCool? |
| 721 | ** Liza Warner was a superhero in the comics, so she's just that badass. Admittedly, she was Lady Cop, AKA one of the dullest superheroes ever, but still. She has the potential. Besides, the task force ''was'' intended to hunt down an archer, and multiple characters have shown arrow blocking abilities. It makes sense that she'd be trained to do exactly that. |
| 722 | ** Liza may be a former kick ass military member. Remember, she seemed to be the boss, and therefore, she is the strongest. |
| 723 | |
| 724 | [[/folder]] |
| 725 | |
| 726 | [[folder:Damien, master of HIVE... Yet isn't?]] |
| 727 | * Ra's Al Ghul made a huge point of Damien being some leader obsessed Guy, who quit the league because he couldn't stand being 2nd in command, and founded H.I.V.E. Yet... He isn't the boss?! I mean, he did find H.I.V.E. I understand if he had a council that could oppose him... If he wasn't described as some control freak. Wouldn't he just kill those guys who can boss him around? (Unless they could kick his ass) |
| 728 | ** Its likely HIVE isn't just a single organisation, but rather a collective of different criminal entities working together for shared goals. Dahrk would still be in charge of his own, but would have equal leadership with the other leaders, at least officially. Given his lack of concern for the other leaders though, its entirely likely that he settled on this because the other leaders have their uses, and he can use his greater power (given he's made it clear they don't understand the nature of his abilities, its unlikely they can match him) to override them should they oppose him in any way. |
| 729 | [[/folder]] |
| 730 | |
| 731 | [[folder: Resurrecting Sara]] |
| 732 | * Why would Malcolm agree to bring Sara back? Nysaa brings up the immediate and obvious point that the pit brings you back ''wrong'' and apparently bringing people back gets harder the longer they've been gone. There are a few other issues. We learn from Thea that you get a strong urge to hurt the one who hurt you, in Thea's case she cannot satisfy the urge because Ra's is dead. In the case of Sara however she was killed by Thea or if she's capable of rationalizing it Malcolm but this seems unlikely. Thea is fully aware of what actually happened and doesn't seem to be putting it on Malcolm. So this just seems like an bizarrely bad play with absolutely no good good outcomes. |
| 733 | ** It made peace with Thea. Agreeing to it calmed her down and stopped her storming off, which runs the risk of further pushing her away. Despite the things he's done to her, its clear Malcolm doesn't ''want'' Thea to hate him, so doing this, as dumb as it is, at least left some positivity between them. And, even if its ultimately a risk, he probably assumed they'd let Oliver in on this and he'd be more than capable of sorting out the mess should they need to. |
| 734 | ** Plus, it's not like Malcolm actually cares if he has to kill Sara again. He's got minions, he doesn't have to worry about her being a danger. So, if it goes to shit, he loses nothing. If it doesn't go to shit, he gains Thea and Laurel's gratitude and Sara literally owes him her life. In fact, it ended up with the solution to why the long dead shouldn't be brought back to life, which was an added bonus. |
| 735 | [[/folder]] |
| 736 | |
| 737 | [[folder: Isn't Felicity compromised?]] |
| 738 | * At the end of "Restoration", Diggle, Oliver and Felicity conclude that there's a good chance that Double Down might have told Darkh about the location of the Palmer Tech lair, which prompts them to relocate to a new lair. But, that being the case, wouldn't it also be reasonable to conclude that Darkh knows about Felicity as well? After all, Double Down knows that Felicity is connected to the Arrow. At the very least, if Darkh knows about the location of Team Arrow's lair, then he would know that Felicity Smoak, the CEO of Palmer Tech, is connected to Team Arrow and could very likely know who the Green Arrow is (something he's been trying to find out since 4x01). But neither do we see Darkh having made that connection, nor do we see Team Arrow even worrying about that possibility... |
| 739 | ** Double Down had no idea who she is: as far as he knows, she's just someone who was in the lab when he raided it. |
| 740 | ** That's assuming that nobody talks to Double Down about that night. The Arrow Cave was beneath Club Verdant, the new one was below Palmer Tech formerly Queen Industries. It's unlikely that someone built a secret lair without the owner knowing. Even starting from zero knowledge figuring out who Felicity is would be a cake walk and linking in the Queens wouldn't be hard at that point. The reality is probably that Double Down like many comic villains doesn't much care who these people are. He was hired to kill Arrow. Not learn his background. Darkh probably similarly doesn't care. The fact that he knew in S3 that Ra's knew his location suggests he still has spies inside. That plus the various news casts tell me that if he doesn't know who Oliver Queen is, it's because he doesn't care not because five minutes of thought wouldn't tell him. |
| 741 | ** Except, its not played that way in the show itself. In 4x01, Darkh wants to know all about Green Arrow, "where he lives and who he loves". If Darkh heard even the slightest mention of Palmer Tech from Double Down, even before the latter actually went in, he'd know that Felicity Smoak was connected to Green Arrow and would thus have one solid clue to GA's identity. But that's not even the problem here - the problem is that Team Arrow assumes that Double Down told Darkh about the location of their lair (whether he actually did so or not is a different matter) and that the lair is therefore compromised, but they somehow don't assume that he didn't tell Darkh about Felicity! |
| 742 | [[/folder]] |
| 743 | |
| 744 | [[folder: Constantine not helping with Thea]] |
| 745 | * At the end of "Haunted", Oliver makes no mention of the effects the Lazarus Pit has had on Thea. Why wouldn't Oliver ask him to use a spell to permanently undo the effects of the Pit on Thea, and Sara for good measure, while Constantine was still in town? |
| 746 | ** He only had the materials for one shot of the spell. It's implied that Sara won't have the bloodlust problem, as it's caused by the souls of the Pit leeching at the soul, which Laurel and Oliver freed her from to get her soul back at all. Thea's problem is just less extreme all around, so they had to spend the shot on Sara. |
| 747 | ** Why he didn't ask is just poor writing. However what is happening to Thea and Sara are probably more different than the show has implied. Sara's body came back to life but she had no soul, hence a Restoration Spell. Thea has her soul it's just tortured by the other souls from the pit. The exact nature of the spell is probably sufficiently different that Constantine would need to go shopping in between. |
| 748 | ** It is confirmed in the following episode, that Constantine's help merely solved the lack of soul problem, but the same blood-lust Thea has very much remains and works in the exact same manner. |
| 749 | ** Also because all magic has a price, that is a constant in the DC universe(s), also this is the same guy who, in his own tv series (BOO cancellation) let himself be possessed by Pazuzu, of all demons (FYI thats the same demon that possessed the girl in the Exorcist!) to save himself, maybe after that experiance he doesn't want to use too much Magic at once. |
| 750 | |
| 751 | [[/folder]] |
| 752 | |
| 753 | [[folder: The League vs H.I.V.E.]] |
| 754 | * Malcolm claims he can't bring his army of ninjas to fight H.I.V.E. because he can't afford to pit the League against H.I.V.E. Last season Ra's attempted to destroy Starling City, and it's revealed that his primary goal was killing Damien, so aren't the two organizations already in a pretty intense conflict going back at least a full century? |
| 755 | ** They were in a state of Cold War. If Damien had died with Starling, Ra's could have just told the surviving H.I.V.E. leaders he [[BlatantLies totally didn't know Damien was there, so sad]]. Plus, it was clearly a personal vendetta of Ra's versus Damien. With Malcolm as the new Ra's, he gets to wipe the slate clean and call a cease-fire with H.I.V.E., which H.I.V.E.'s other leaders will support so they can focus on more important matters. You'll note that Damien knew about Malcolm when he fought Thea and saw that she was League-trained, so they are clearly aware of each other, even if they haven't been in actual contact. |
| 756 | ** Also, the League is probably in much worse shape under Malcolm than it was before. For starters, Oliver & co. probably killed a not-insignificant number of members (though probably not enough to make a real difference). The Lazarus Pit is also destroyed. Nyssa hates him, and it's possible some League members are loyal to her (or at least less loyal to Malcolm than they were to Ra's), so he some might leave if he tries to take on HIVE. |
| 757 | [[/folder]] |
| 758 | |
| 759 | [[folder:Exploding no-shows?]] |
| 760 | * Why doesn't Oliver just shoot Vandal in the back with an exploding arrow once he delivers his ultimatum in part two of legends of today? Normal arrows don't work, yes, but blowing him to bits would've negated the threat he posed ''instantly''. Vandal didn't even have the staff of horus on his person then, so he couldn't have blocked it, and he'd have blown up. Bye bye bad guy. |
| 761 | ** Oliver is a bit of an idiot. |
| 762 | ** Oliver's still trying the whole "ThouShaltNotKill" thing at that point. |
| 763 | ** It would be foolish for Oliver to assume that Vandal Savage didn't have some sort of countermeasure or plan to stop any tactic he or Barry can throw at him. Hell, for all they knew, he could've just had the Staff of Horus leaning up against a pillar, just out of sight. Yes, Oliver hits Savage with an arrow, but he's also seen Savage catch them with ease, and it seems like Savage just let himself get hit to prove the point about his immortality. Besides, Oliver has experience with magic, and they were there to gain knowledge on Savage before they could put a plan in place to stop him. |
| 764 | [[/folder]] |
| 765 | |
| 766 | [[folder: Flash vs Damien]] |
| 767 | * In super hero fiction with overlapping worlds it's always a bit of a question why super heroes don't outsource more but this is generally summed up with a combination of SupermanStaysOutOfGotham and just plain having your own problems to deal with. In Heroes of Yesterday however Team Arrow is getting beaten by H.I.V.E. and Flash shows up, rescues them and then Oliver immediately asks him why he came? Fights don't normally take very long for Team Arrow and with Flash's help it would literally have taken five minutes to wrap up the current big bad. Now plot wise unless they put an arrow in him Damien would escape but to just drop their current mission without a second thought? Worse, as bad as Vandal Savage turned out to be at the moment he was the lesser of two threats in nearly every way. |
| 768 | ** As ''Series/{{The Flash|2014}}'' makes abundantly clear, Barry is ''extremely'' busy in Central City. Unless Damien is in the process of taking over the world at that very moment and Oliver is totally unable to stop him, it's unlikely he'd want to disrupt his own life any more. |
| 769 | ** He's already there, he saves Oliver instead of punching Damien at how ever many miles per hour he was going. It's easy to forget how OP Flash is compared to "normal" people but we're talking about the guy who stormed Nanda Parbat and presumably didn't kill anybody because he had time to be gentle. The time he took rushing Ollie, Diggle, and Speedy off could have been used ending the threat of Damien or he could have gone back and wrapped it up. He's smart enough to know those are bad people. |
| 770 | ** But not ruthless enough to kill them right then and there. That's repeatedly been shown to be the difference between Barry and Oliver: Oliver is the cynical, experienced one, while Barry is the idealistic, sometimes naive one. He just thought "I'll pull Oliver out of there, if this guy was a real threat Oliver would have called me to handle it a while ago." |
| 771 | ** He doesn't need to kill. Just incapacitate. And It doesn't occur to Oliver (possibly because he was just saved from Death Touch) or Diggle who's vomiting or Speedy whose awestruck... okay those are all very good reasons not to simply send him BACK to finish the job. |
| 772 | ** We don't even know if The Flash ''could'' take Damien Darhk in a fight. Against normal human beings, even BadassNormal ones, he'll easily win. However, for all we know Damien has a mystical force field protecting him that not even Barry's speed could penetrate. When it's SuperSpeed versus an extremely powerful sorcerer, the winner isn't always clear. |
| 773 | ** Only, it is clear here. We know you can punch him in the face. We know that the faster you punch someone in the face, the harder it hits. We know Barry can move so fast that you can't tell he just moved. So, we know that Barry can deliver a knockout blow and Damien has no way to block it, or else he'd be throwing up magical force fields against normal punches. |
| 774 | ** Except the only reason Ollie ever hit Darhk when he had his powers wS because Darhk let him. And seeing as he recovered from a knockout dart that would put people out for hours its unlikely that he would stay down for long. Also, considering who Barry has lost to, is it really that far-fetched? |
| 775 | ** Plus, the whole reason Barry came to Oliver in the first place was because he needed help dealing with someone mystical and Oliver had the most experience. If Barry was so confident about his chances against a sorcerer, then he wouldn't have come to Star City to get the Green Arrow's help against Vandal Savage. And at any rate, we don't even know what happened after Barry got Team Arrow out of there. Darhk and his Ghosts may have fled the premises once they realized that the Flash had shown up (and while Barry may have been able to stop the Ghosts, Darhk has consistently demonstrated the ability to teleport). |
| 776 | [[/folder]] |
| 777 | |
| 778 | [[folder:Marines? Really?]] |
| 779 | * For a normal politician, Marines guarding your event is quite enough. For Team Arrow, that's moronic. Why would any of them think Marines would have a chance against the literal warlock or his troops that you know are better than the Marines already? I feel like at least TRYING to get ARGUS to help would have been a better plan. |
| 780 | ** For a normal real life politician Marines are a bit of overkill. For Team Arrow it's difficult to know. The fictional military is pretty bad ass, remember Diggle and his brother are both army. Laurel has had the bare minimum of formal training at this point as well. The typical ARGUS soldier doesn't seem to be that much better than a typical military man, their main advantage is better gear and being prepped for the situation they are in. Against Darkh really it was a matter of who you were going to throw into the meat grinder. |
| 781 | [[/folder]] |
| 782 | |
| 783 | [[folder: Code Name Overwatch]] |
| 784 | * In A.W.O.L. Oliver gives Felicity the code name Overwatch and then comments he would have called her Oracle but it was taken. The obvious question being by whom? It's impossible to ignore the parallels between Felicity and Barbara Gordon at this particular juncture and that's obviously what the reference is to. But does that mean not only that there is/was a Batman active in this world but he had/has an Oracle and Oliver is aware of them? |
| 785 | ** There certainly isn't a Batman active in this universe, but it's possible Barbara is already active as a hacker who's using the publicly-known handle "Oracle". |
| 786 | ** There is a real life company named Oracle; maybe Java exists in the Arrowverse too? I just assumed it was a double ShoutOut; tease the viewers a bit, but not in a way that promises Barbara Gordon will show up. |
| 787 | ** There's a theory that Batman was operating previously in this universe, but became an urban myth. Overwatch comes from Marc Guggenheim pandering to his fans again. |
| 788 | ** They asked WB to let them call Felicity "Oracle" but were turned down. WB and DC have other plans for the character (presumably for the movies). It's a meta-joke about them not being able to use the name.Oracle is actually one of two characters they've ever asked to use and been denied, the other being Ted Kord. |
| 789 | ** Well, we know Harley Quinn was in ARGUS custody, that Bludhaven exists, Oracle exists and Talia is strangely not around the League anymore at all, and that Ra's has been looking for a new successor for a while now, yet Talia was never even considered despite Nyssa no longer being seen as fit for the job. So, what that implies is that Batman was active decades ago, fought the League until Ra's just gave up trying to get him to take over and Talia is with him or dead. |
| 790 | [[/folder]] |
| 791 | |
| 792 | [[folder: What is with all the ExecutiveMeddling? Don't read if you haven't watched up to A.W.O.L.]] |
| 793 | * Seriously. Deadshot's dead, Blue Beetle is the Atom, and now Waller's dead. And why? Because the DC goddamn EU! Why are the powers that be convinced that the [[ViewersAreMorons audience are incapable of comprehending different versions of the same character?]] |
| 794 | ** It may have something to do with the rights. As in, they can't have multiple versions going at the same time (except for The Flash for some reason). Also, what do you mean "Blue Beetle is the Atom"? |
| 795 | ** The poster is probably referring to the fact that this version of Ray Palmer has a lot in common with Ted Kord, the second Blue Beetle, and he's kind of a composite character |
| 796 | ** The poster is referring to the fact that originally, the writers intended for Ted Kord to appear as the Blue Beetle. When Andrew Kreisberg went to get the okay from DC, he was told they had other plans for the character and that he couldn't be used, but suggested Ray Palmer instead. |
| 797 | ** Even if viewers can deal with different versions of the same character, it's just easier for them to have one version of each (except Barry, possibly because he would be the catalyst for any crossovers.) |
| 798 | ** True, but why should we coddle viewers? If you wanna be a fan of superhero works, get that mental lube ready because you're in for a mindfuck. Depriving them of it is taking away the authentic comic book experience. |
| 799 | [[/folder]] |
| 800 | |
| 801 | [[folder: Thea's bloodlust compared to Sara's (spoilers as of "Unchained")]] |
| 802 | * Merlyn mentions that Sara doesn't have the same problems that Thea is now experiencing since her soul was restored by John Constantine. So...why don't they just summon him back and get him to do the same thing for Thea? Is it because she still has her soul because she was actually in a ''better'' state than Sara when going into the pit, meaning that ironically now she's in a worse state upon exiting since Constantine can't fix it? I know behind-the-scenes they can't get Matt Ryan to reprise his role easily (it was always intended as a one-off), but there should be an InUniverse explanation for this. Right now it's almost striking me as an example of JustEatGilligan. |
| 803 | ** That's almost certainly it. Constantine possibly ''could'' do some other ritual to fix Thea, but he's also implied to be terrified of Dahrk. Presumably he wants to stay as far away as possible, and he did already return the favor he owed to Oliver. |
| 804 | ** It's also a ritual that requires lots of rare materials. Getting more of them might just be too difficult. |
| 805 | ** In ''Series/LegendsOfTomorrow'', Sara still has her bloodlust. It's not clear if she needs to kill in the same way Thea does (since she kills often enough that she doesn't have to worry about the Pit's healing effects fading), but she definitely still ''feels'' the need. So the ritual wasn't quite the fix that it seems. |
| 806 | |
| 807 | [[/folder]] |
| 808 | |
| 809 | [[folder: Why would the police come after Oliver again if Roy is exposed ("Unchained" SPOILERS)?]] |
| 810 | * So in "Unchained", Roy says that if the Calculator exposed him and the Arrow was known to not be dead, then the police would come after Oliver. But why? Firstly, all Roy being exposed would reveal is that the Arrow is still alive (which admittedly, would be a problem for Roy if a) the SCPD decide to chase after him, and b) other criminals the Arrow put away or hurt would target him)...it doesn't prove ''anything'' as far as Oliver goes. (Well, maybe Oliver and Thea would be questioned by the police because of their past association with Roy but nothing beyond that). Secondly, the only cop interested in targeting Oliver Queen was Quentin Lance, who's now once again on Team Arrow's side. In fact, Lance's higher-ups, as we learnt in 3x19, disapproved of Lance targeting Oliver out of a personal vendetta, so the chances of ''anyone'' going on that wild-goose chase again are low. |
| 811 | ** I think it makes sense. Officially, as far as the city is concerned, Roy Harper WAS The Arrow, and is now dead, with the Green Arrow now being a different vigilante ([[PaperThinDisguise as ridiculous as it all is]]). Yes, Quentin and Team Arrow are now in good graces, but he's the only member of the force to know their true identities and the extent of their operation. If Roy Harper suddenly shows up alive and the police recognize him this would create a ''ton'' of problems, regardless of Lance's influence (and it may even lead to his dismissal if he's found to be working with a team of vigilantes and covering up deaths). The ultimate result could lead to Team Arrow's wide exposure, unmasking, and arrests (as well as that of the ARGUS inside-men who helped Roy escape). |
| 812 | ** Why would it create problems for SCPD or Quentin? As far as (almost) everyone is concerned, Roy died in Iron Heights, outside of their custody and jurisdiction. It would certainly create a problem the people running Iron Heights might have to explain, but they've already had two breakouts caused by supervillains so it would be easy to assume that evil killer Arrow person somehow faked his own death and escaped the same way. The worst that happens is that there's an alert put out for an escaped prisoner. With the reveal of what the League was planning to do to Star(ling) City, the idea the Arrow was framed could even be common knowledge, the only thing Roy might be facing is escaping from lawful custody with the other charges dropped, in which case no one would be spending a great deal of time looking for him. |
| 813 | ** Lets remember that Roy has also been out of the loop for a while; he probably didn't know that Quinten was working with them again nor that the police no longer cared who the Arrow is. He could have sorted this out by contacting Ollie, but given the Calculator had so much control over his life without the blackmail part already, its likely he tried and couldn't. |
| 814 | [[/folder]] |
| 815 | |
| 816 | |
| 817 | [[folder: Roy lets Thea almost fall off a building? (Unchained spoilers)]] |
| 818 | * After it's revealed that the robber Team Arrow was chasing was Roy, it becomes unclear why he didn't do anything when Thea fainted and nearly slid off the roof before Oliver caught her. |
| 819 | ** This was very clearly explained in the episode. He was being blackmailed, which presumably included not helping the people trying to catch him. |
| 820 | ** Indeed. You can tell from Roy's body language that he wants to help her, but it's clear that the blackmailer is keeping that from happening. Plus, Roy doesn't actually run away until he's certain that Oliver can save Thea. |
| 821 | [[/folder]] |
| 822 | |
| 823 | [[folder: Why was Malcolm not their first target?]] |
| 824 | * Oliver cut off Malcolm's hand and Malcolm lost the League. Malcolm then swore vengeance on Oliver. Then Darhk shows up and tells Oliver that he's kidnapped William. Oliver also knows that Malcolm knew about William. And yet despite this, the entire team was somehow at a loss on who could've kidnapped William until the end? Shouldn't it have been immediately obvious to Oliver that Malcolm was the one who kidnapped William for Darhk without needing to be told about it? |
| 825 | ** Well, it was clear to Thea, who immediately confronts him about that after learning that Malcolm knew about William. As for the rest not suspecting Malcolm, it's possible that none of them could believe that he would stoop that low for petty revenge. Alternatively, even if they suspected Malcolm, it's possible that they thought he only told Darhk where to find William, not that he kidnapped him himself. So in that scenario, the only person who would know William's location is Darhk himself, thus their time is better spent tracking the actual captor down. |
| 826 | ** They also weren't looking for targets, they were looking for William; getting the kid home safe was their first and only priority; they could worry about finding a target to blame later. |
| 827 | [[/folder]] |
| 828 | |
| 829 | [[folder: Kneecaps of steel]] |
| 830 | * Even a small fall can cause serious damage to a normal human. This is why you're supposed to roll whenever you land while doing something athletic like parkour. So how does everyone on Team Arrow routinely execute landings from at least 10 feet while remaining perfectly upright, to the point where they barely seem to notice what they're doing? Just one of those falls would be enough to put a normal person in the hospital, and probably cripple them for life. So how do Oliver and his friends do it on a regular basis with zero physical consequences? |
| 831 | ** Supehero Landing. Besides, look at some of the insane hits Oliver took from the Mirakuru men and got up for more. The cast is MadeOfIron. |
| 832 | ** Besides, it's not ''that'' dangerous. Over time the damage will become serious, but jumping off a 1st story rooftop is not going to break your knees. |
| 833 | ** In one episode, after a [[spoiler: Mirakuru enduced rage-out from Roy]] broke Oliver's leg, the Arrow goes to a doctor and the doctor says something along the lines of he does have damage to knees from all of the jumps he makes |
| 834 | [[/folder]] |
| 835 | |
| 836 | [[folder: "Once again you cut me out of the decision!"]] |
| 837 | * I'll be upfront, no I don't like Olicity and the breakup at the end of Taken was badly written and contrived, but I'm not here to complain about the eye rolling breakup. Rather, I recently watched Taken again to see more Vixen and I rewatched the Olicity fight at the end, where Felicity says word for word "And now you're sending William away, and I undestand why, you know that I do, but once again you've cut me out of the decision!" What the Hell is that supposed to imply? Was Oliver supposed to consult his girlfriend about what to do about his son's safety after his kidnapping? Is Felicity demanding a say in what Samantha and Oliver do with THEIR son? Felicity and Oliver aren't married yet and Felicity has to my knowledge never actually met William. |
| 838 | ** It's quite obvious why. Felicty has become so self absorbed, she has officially made everything Oliver does now her own. It's the only real legitimate explanation. |
| 839 | ** Yes, rationally or not Felicity feels like she should have a say in what Sam and Ollie do with their kid. Who in short order was going to become her (step) son had everything progressed naturally. Her real issue which is thoroughly explored not just through the episode but largely last season is that Oliver likes to pretend that he's part of a team with his friends. He's not. At the end of the day any consulting he does with his team is for the sake of appearances and he's going to make whatever decision he's going to make all on his own. This is just the latest example. |
| 840 | ** I think it has less to do with Ollie not giving Felicity any decision making power in that situation as much as he didn't even talk to her about it. He cut her out completely once again. He didn't even take the time to hear what she might have to say on the matter, and with big, life altering decisions... that's something you have to talk about in a relationship, regardless of how it impacts your partner. |
| 841 | ** At the same time though, it's not really cutting her out of his decision since A) Felicity was the one not talking to him, so its not like he deliberately avoided her; hell, its entirely likely he tried to talk to her about it and she refused to talk to him (which is honestly completely in-character with Felicity), so he had no choice but to make the decision without her in-put, and B) Regardless of if she has any opinion on the matter, it doesn't matter: William isn't her son, he's Oliver's and Samantha's, and they are the only two who matter in deciding what's best for William. Just because she's his partner doesn't mean that she should be involved in every decision he makes, just as he doesn't need to be involved in any decisions she makes; she doesn't need his in-put to run her company, so he doesn't need her input when deciding how best to protect his son. Hell, flip this around, if Felicity decided to sell the company to protect it staff from any Arrow-related counter attacks by enemies, if Oliver tried to complain that she didn't talk to him about it first, its pretty likely Felicity would fire back that she doesn't need his input as its not his decision, and she'd be jut as entitled to say that as Oliver is here. |
| 842 | ** Two things. First she's not going to be his partner. She's going to be his wife which makes William ''something'' to her. Given the circumstances probably not a stepson comming to live at the Arrowcave but still. Regardless has Oliver decided the opposite it very quickly would have become something she was involved with. It would be an actual child, quite possibly spending weekends at her house. Selling the company while still something that a couple should discuss is not remotely the same. Besides at the end of the day emotions do not need to be rational and often times are not. So it's not important that Felicity be a rational being for this to be solved as a headscratcher. Simply that we can grasp her motivation which seems to be clear if somewhat petty. |
| 843 | ** Partner/Wife, that's splitting hairs. In any case, Oliver sending Samantha and William away for safety doesn't effect Felicity so again, him deciding that doesn't require her in-put, just as if she sent Donna away for safety wouldn't require Oliver's. Now, if he ''did'' decide to make William a part of his life openly and he ''did'' become part of Felicity's life, than yeah, he would need to talk to her first about it, just as, again, if Felicity decided to have Donna move in, since that would be directly effecting his life. And yes, we know her motivation, but that doesn't seem to be what the OP was asking; the show treated Felicity's reaction as justified, and the OP's HS is about that. |
| 844 | ** It affects her either way however. The idea that it doesn't implies that Oliver's feelings are irrelevant to Felicity. The same way that Felicity deciding not to let Donna live with them in whatever hypothetical lead to that possibility would effect Oliver. Married people are supposed to discuss these things. This isn't Oliver deciding not to have coffee this morning. This is Oliver passing on a relationship with his son. And lets face it Malcolm and Damien at the very least are aware. Unless Barry zips those two over to Earth 2 they aren't hidden well enough if someone wants to find them. |
| 845 | * The OP is completely misunderstanding Felicity's line. Felicity is not talking about Oliver's decision to send William away. Felicity is talking about his decision to have agreed to Samantha's demand that he tell no one - not even his fiance - about William if he wanted to have any role in his life. Her ExactWords are "I know the position Samantha put you in. I know it was an impossible decision, but you were right. You should have told me. Marriage is about inclusion. It's about leaning on your partner when things get complicated. I don't think that you know how to do that... And now you're sending William away, and I understand why. You know that I do. But once again you have left me out of the decision." Felicity is rightly pissed that Oliver would choose to lie to her about having a son rather than lying to Samantha and telling Felicity "Okay. I have a kid and the mother won't let me see him unless I hide his existence. So pretend you don't know this, okay?" |
| 846 | |
| 847 | [[/folder]] |
| 848 | |
| 849 | [[folder: Disbanding the League as simple as that?]] |
| 850 | * Nyssa melts the claw/ring thing and that eliminates the League of Shadows just like that? How is that even possible and how is that a good thing? Sure there are lots of mooks in the League but Nyssa, Merlyn, Sara, Damien Darhk, and Maseo all came out of that organization. Melting the ring wouldn't do anything to Nanda Parbat so SOMEONE is using it as an HQ because it's only been taken by force once. And that once is heavily implied to have been allowed by Ra's. Nyssa speaks about setting people free of her father but as far as we can tell Merlyn and Maseo went to him completely of their own free will. They were only trying so hard to get Merlyn until he stepped out of line with The Undertaking, Sara was more or less allowed to walk as well. So this wasn't a slave army of any sort which leads to the final point. Sara and Nyssa can't be the only members of the League who had genuine affection and respect for each other. The kind where no longer answering to Ra's doesn't mean that large chunks of the League, possibly the majority of it via some sort of council, wouldn't remain united and functional. |
| 851 | ** Actually, the League ''were'' a slave army; it's stated explicitly that the only two who've ''ever'' been released are Malcolm and Sara, and it's shown that members undergo brainwashing rituals upon entering, and are shown with undying loyalty to Ra's that borders on worship; there was no 'council' or chain of command beyond 'Ra's Al Ghul on top, Nyssa and maybe one-or-two EliteMook types under him, everyone else under them', so all Nyssa would need to do is go to Nanda Parbat, summon everyone, then tell them the league is done and they're free to go (and as they're loyal to her, they'd have to obey her wish for them to leave, meaning no 'OK, well, why don't we just stick around and make our own league?' BS). It'd be chaotic, and the world would be now filled with hundreds of highly trained assassins with nothing to do but sell their skills to the highest bidder, but at least all these people are operating individually or in small groups rather than one person commanding all of them, meaning no one person has their level of power, and that all these people are at least free from slavery. |
| 852 | ** Damian got out though that was under a previous Ra's and Sara got out as well. So Malcolm may be part of small club but he's not unique. Sara doesn't seem to have been brainwashed, nor Malcolm nor Sado. Those two men were deep in despair and looking for a place they could belong and they found one. They were brainwashed sure but virtually every organization does that to varying degrees. They did however take their vows quite seriously as displayed when men who had been attempting to murder Malcolm took a knee. The implication of a council wasn't that there was one in place already, just that there have to be enough elite mooks to form one. First Ra's is over a hundred sixty years old and ran a global network. The people had to have been semiautonomous. Worse if this was an option why didn't Oliver do it at the end of S3? |
| 853 | ** Damian got out because he ran away and formed his own club, and clearly the League weren't happy with that, so he doesn't count as he wasn't 'released'. Sara got out because Nyssa gave her permission and Ra's didn't want her anyway, but even still they tried to stop her leaving, not to mention, by the backstory, Sara was found near-death by Nyssa, brought to the League, and after becoming an Assassin wasn't allowed to leave, so even if you argue against the idea of it being brainwashing, forcing someone vulnerable into a line of work you refuse to let them leave is pretty much the definition of slavery. As for brainwashing, given the fact that Sara went from being a scared ActionSurvivor who was visibly terrified holding a gun to a fearless killer while Malcolm went from a goofy father grieving for his wife into a ruthless monster (both huge and unnatural personality changes, IR, brainwashing), and Maseo was shown struggling with loyalty to Ra's conflicting with his base personality to the point they acted like he was two different people, so yeah, brainwashing definitely occurred for them (its just that, obviously, Sara and Malcolm were able to shrug it off). Honestly, 'every organisation does that' is hyperbole that doesn't mean shit; even if you think that's true, the degree to which the League were shown doing it during the reprogramming scene (using intense training/beatings, mind-altering drugs, sleep deprivation/starvation, forcing madness mantras onto them, etc) is clearly a much greater degree of such compared to other organisations; they were brainwashed into soldiers who'd live and die by Ra's command, simple as that. As for forming a council ''after'' Nyssa disbands, again, that would directly go against Nyssa's wishes and as Ra's Al Ghul they'd have to follow them; it's her order for the League to be discontinued and it has to be discontinued. There may very well be small groups that form up as splinter versions later, but for all intents and purposes, the League is gone. As for why Oliver didn't just do that, he probably didn't think he could; Nyssa clearly knows more about the League and likely knew better as to what's considered acceptable or not. |
| 854 | ** As of Eleven Fifty Nine clearly some of these slaves are so loyal that they have decided to remain in service to a group that no longer formally exist. Which means at least some of the former League either never accepted Nyssa's rule or at the very least took the disbanding as advice and went straight to the last guy who wanted to be in control. We have no clue how many remained loyal to Malcolm. It could be just the handful we saw or the entire organization we have no way of knowing at this juncture. |
| 855 | [[/folder]] |
| 856 | |
| 857 | [[folder: I loved Shado! wait, what about your' family?]] |
| 858 | |
| 859 | * Slade mentions in his intro episodes that he has a son and a wife, Billy Wintergreen was his son's Godfather, what happened to them? all of a sudden he is in love with Shado to give us some reason for him to go full Deathstroke, and it was shown he had a thing for her before the Mirakuru injection, am I missing something or was it just one of those "shes the only person here with tits i've seen in a while so i want some" thing? |
| 860 | ** Slade hadn't seen his wife or son in years. He probably thought he wasn't ever going to see them again, and there's this beautiful kind and bad-ass woman he's attracted to. Of course deeper feelings are going to develop. His feelings of loss and love for Shado likely increased with the Mirakuru injection to make him go nuts. |
| 861 | ** IIRC, they only mentioned he had a son, not a wife, so its possible he's divorced. In any case, Shado and him were shown regulary flirting and as they were confined with little to no other romantic options (besides Oliver), developing romantic feelings for her is quite a natural thing, even if she doesn't reciprocate them. |
| 862 | ** OP: I get that but he only gives his family a passing mention in order to set up who Billy Wintergreen is, and I've looked it up, nothing is mentioned about them, but I digress, Shado comes along, then she dies and Slade goes nuts so we don't get alot of dynamics. |
| 863 | ** Two things: First, the Mirakuru was making Slade obsessed with this one event (like how Roy was obsessed with Thea's "betrayal" despite the fact that many people have done far worse things to him), and second, everything that happened with Slade's family happened ''long'' before he met Oliver. There's no way he can blame him for anything about them. |
| 864 | |
| 865 | [[/folder]] |
| 866 | |
| 867 | [[folder: Blind to the obviousness]] |
| 868 | |
| 869 | * In episode 18 of season 3 the police ambush the Arrow crew, but, they rush past the other, black clad group, hell, there was a helicopter with a spotlight, [[spoiler: Ra's Al Ghul]] walks in the direction the police came from, what happened there? |
| 870 | ** They weren't given orders to take in anyone but the Arrow and his team, so as far as they were concerned it wasn't their job to arrest the LOA. |
| 871 | [[/folder]] |
| 872 | |
| 873 | [[folder:The Idol]] |
| 874 | |
| 875 | * Why in God's name did Team Arrow rebuild the idol? This makes no sense whatsoever. Vixen destroyed it, depleting Damien of his powers. Why did they take it and try and rebuild it, and at what point was this mentioned, if at all? I understand the writers want Darhk to regain his powers, but I feel like a second idol would have made more sense from a narrative perspective. |
| 876 | ** I can't see any actual reason either. I could maybe see the team looking to exploit the idol's powers themselves for some new magical threat of the week showing up, but the flashback scenes make it painfully clear Oliver knows EXACTLY what the idol is, what it does, and how it takes lives to fuel it, making that a ridiculous plot hole. The fact that they hid one of the pieces to keep it from working makes it even more ridiculous that they didn't just grind the thing into dust and scatter the dust to the four corners of the world. |
| 877 | ** Maybe destroying it was not as simple as it appears. Maybe they wanted to keep it safe. |
| 878 | |
| 879 | [[/folder]] |
| 880 | |
| 881 | [[folder:Replacement hand]] |
| 882 | |
| 883 | * How did Merlyn get a replacement hand that's fully functional? What is it made of? Is it mystical in nature, conjured up by some shamans in H.I.V.E., or does H.I.V.E. have their own team of engineers working on it? And why does no one comment on it, as if they're not surprised? |
| 884 | ** It's not fully functional. It's just a prosthetic. Watch during his fights with Thea; he's not using it at all. |
| 885 | ** I thought the fingers did move during the fight more than a prosthetic can. Alternatively, Damien Darhk stole water from the Lazarus pit when he left the League of Assassins, so maybe HIVE let Malcolm use it in reward for helping them. Darhk really should have commented on it during the prison visit. |
| 886 | ** If you look, when he's carrying the bag with the idol in it the hand is completely stilted, its not even gripping the straps. Most likely its just a prosthetic which, if it does have any mobility, is no more so than real life prosthetics. As for why no one commented on it, well, its clearly not his real hand and most of the team haven't seen him since he lost it, so they probably don't think anything of it. Darhk probably should have commented, but its probably HIVE's resources that gave him the hand so he probably isn't surprised by it either. |
| 887 | |
| 888 | [[/folder]] |
| 889 | |
| 890 | [[folder:Idol piece]] |
| 891 | |
| 892 | * How did Andy get his hands on the last piece of the idol without Team Arrow noticing? Shouldn't they have done a spot check before going to Iron Heights? |
| 893 | ** Andy explains it. He's been watching them all for weeks he just needed to narrow it down to who had hidden it. As for doing a spot check presumably you mean go make sure the last piece is where they left it. Of the two major people in conversation, Diggle and Oliver, it's among the last things they would do under the circumstances. Diggle trusts his brother and doesn't feel the need to check. This probably also applies for Thea and Laurel. Oliver on the other hand suspects Andy is every bit as smart as he is. By checking to see if it's still there Oliver would run the risk of leading Andy right to it. A secret hiding place becomes less secret each time you go. |
| 894 | |
| 895 | [[/folder]] |
| 896 | |
| 897 | [[folder:Why don't you just shoot him?]] |
| 898 | |
| 899 | * When Darhk had all of Team Arrow in paralysis in the climax [[BondVillainStupidity why didn't he kill all of Team Arrow instead of just Laurel]]? |
| 900 | ** Because he wanted to prove a point to Quentin, and piss off Team Arrow. |
| 901 | |
| 902 | [[/folder]] |
| 903 | |
| 904 | [[folder:Rotting versus breaking out]] |
| 905 | |
| 906 | * H.I.V.E., speaking via Malcolm, had previously said they were completely content to let Darhk rot in prison. Why did they have a sudden change of heart? |
| 907 | ** They didn't--Malcolm did. Darhk convinced Malcolm that he could protect him and Thea better than HIVE could, and that he'd get out eventually due to his ace. Malcolm, being a self-serving bastard, went the way the wind was blowing. |
| 908 | |
| 909 | [[/folder]] |
| 910 | |
| 911 | [[folder:Black Canary in the hospital]] |
| 912 | |
| 913 | * The Green Arrow brings the Black Canary into the hospital, and later on Team Arrow, unmasked, visits the unmasked Laurel Lance. So I guess the hospital staff now know their identities? |
| 914 | ** Possibly. They could have just asked them to keep quiet, and if they didn't, well, Darhk already figured out their identities and has all his powers back, so who could they tell that's worse than that? This was GodzillaThreshold, pure and simple. It was either take her to the hospital or watch her die. |
| 915 | ** At the very least, Black Canary's identity has been exposed. With the rest of the team, there's still a bit of plausible deniability, since it seems like Green Arrow left her in the hospital and later Oliver, Thea, John and Felicity visit her. Of course, the staff most likely will guess that Laurel Lance's friends are most likely the other vigilantes, but its not like they could prove it 100%. |
| 916 | ** [[spoiler: In 4x19, the surgeon who attended to Laurel is well aware of her identity and it's implied that she knows that Oliver is Green Arrow, but agrees to keep it secret because of 'doctor-patient confidentiality' and also out of respect for what the heroes have done for the city. Most of the hospital staff know that Black Canary was wheeled in and that Laurel Lance died on the operating table, but do not know that the two incidents were connected and that its the same woman]]. |
| 917 | ** [[spoiler: It is later confirmed in 5x15, that Dr. Schwartz - the doctor who attended to Laurel - is aware of Oliver Queen's secret identity and that she has discretely treated him for severe injuries he or Diggle couldn't handle in the past. She was also the doctor who treated Thea in 4x12 when Thea went into a coma. It seems likely that she's the "family friend" Oliver referred to in 3x20 who helped arrange Thea's disappearance from the hospital so they could take her to Nanda Parbat.]] |
| 918 | |
| 919 | [[/folder]] |
| 920 | |
| 921 | [[folder:Darhk's ring]] |
| 922 | |
| 923 | * [[WhatHappenedToTheMouse What happened to the ring that Darhk put on at the end of "Broken Hearts"?]] |
| 924 | ** It's currently irrelevant since he regained his primary idol. Might become relevant again later, but it's clearly weaker than the primary one (or he'd be using it as his primary one). |
| 925 | ** It's not a totem, It's his wedding ring, he is just very good at being compelling. |
| 926 | |
| 927 | [[/folder]] |
| 928 | |
| 929 | [[folder: Remember Your Sonic Scream?]] |
| 930 | * During the fight at the prison, why did Laurel never think to try her sonic scream to clear out Darhk's mooks? Hell, it could've even dropped Darhk himself since he wasn't powered up yet. Did she just take a vow of silence or something? |
| 931 | ** Laurel almost never uses her scream in the middle of a fight, only to start one. Presumably this is because it's an obvious move that takes a second to perform--which will open her up to attack. |
| 932 | ** Which does not explain why she wouldn't use it to drop Darhk and the thug holding Andy. The thugs were down at the moment and she had more than enough room to use it, especially since Darhk didn't have his powers back yet. |
| 933 | ** My question is why they don't ever just put in sound filters in their ears so the entire team isn't incapacitated at the same time as the bad guys every single time she ever used it. |
| 934 | |
| 935 | [[/folder]] |
| 936 | |
| 937 | [[folder: Evelyn]] |
| 938 | * Nothing about Evelyn seems to make any sense. How did she get Laurel's Canary Cry to work for her vocal chords? How did she get it to be louder? How did she know Laurel was the Black Canary? How did she know who was involved with HIVE? |
| 939 | ** Evelyn was captured by HIVE along with her parents, she just escaped ("You left us there!"). She found out about Laurel when she saw her things in her room and stole the sonic device. She knew Ruve was Darhk's wife because Darhk talked in front of his "volunteers" about Oliver stepping down in her favor, and it's obvious from there. The Canary Cry is the unexplained one, but apparently she's just smart enough to get around whatever Cisco did. As for the loudness, that's easy; she just turned up the volume. Laurel only used it at a specific volume so that her friends' earplugs would work, not because she couldn't make it louder. |
| 940 | |
| 941 | [[/folder]] |
| 942 | |
| 943 | [[folder: Why didn't ARGUS take Damian Darkh into custody?]] |
| 944 | * The whole Damian Darkh court case sub-plot made little sense. Why didn't Diggle just have Lyla take Darkh into ARGUS custody and imprison him on the Lian Yu prison? Darkh is not just some ordinary kidnapper, or even ordinary criminal mastermind...he's an immortal would-be leader of the League of Assassins AND the leader of HIVE, an equally dangerous organization currently terrorizing a major city. Surely there were more than sufficient grounds for ARGUS to step in and take Darkh into custody. The team was able to successfully hand over Carrie Cutter, a relatively minor criminal, to ARGUS...why not simply do the same with Darkh? |
| 945 | ** We don't know exactly how ARGUS' arrests work, but everyone we've seen in their custody (including Flash's metahumans being transferred to their custody) has been someone with no connections. Even Deathstroke was only a personal danger. Since ARGUS is black-ops, it would be a good idea for them to shy away from anyone with armies of lawyers who will ask pointed questions if they suddenly disappear. On top of that, Team Arrow thought he was thoroughly defanged, and could have asked Lyla to leave him to Star City's legal system in an attempt to give the city a bit more hope in their laws and police. Finally, Lyla operates ARGUS very differently from Waller. Waller probably would have either had him "accidentally" killed on the way to Lian Yu or recruited for the Suicide Squad. |
| 946 | ** ARGUS, while it is definitely involved in black-ops, appears to be a publicly-known agency like the CIA or Homeland Security. It could easily have detained Darkh using the Arrowverse equivalent of the Patriot Act (or whatever law that governs ARGUS and defines its mandate). Remember, Slade Wilson was publicly known to be the terrorist leader behind the Starling City Siege, so there's no doubt that his arrest by ARGUS was known to the police and done officially. Ditto with Carrie Cutter. And if Oliver had no qualms about handing over Cutter to a Waller-run ARGUS then why would he have qualms about handing over the FAR more dangerous Darkh to the Lyla-led one? |
| 947 | ** Admittedly, the argument that Team Arrow wanted to re-affirm the people's faith in the legal system is the one which makes most sense in context, though it would be a particularly heightened case of HonorBeforeReason. |
| 948 | ** There's an even simpler reason than that: Damien Darhk is a public figure whose wife was involved local politics. Everyone else ARGUS took could easily "vanish" without it attracting a lot of media attention. Digger Harkness? Mercenary for hire. Carrie Cutter? Crazy ex-cop. Even Slade Wilson: Terrorist Mastermind was a special ops soldier who had been MIA for years. Trying to "disappear" Darhk would attract a lot more attention than a covert ops group would want to deal with. |
| 949 | |
| 950 | [[/folder]] |
| 951 | |
| 952 | [[folder: Why not kill Damian?]] |
| 953 | * It's clear that not all of the members of H.I.V.E. trust Damian or even like him overmuch. As it stands he's to dangerous to directly confront but he's presumably not immortal. He fled Starling City rather than face Ra's and the League so clearly killing him is not impossible even if you might have to take out the building or city that he's in to do it. Additionally there was a brief period where he had no powers and a simple assassination plan would probably have worked. It's unlikely they don't know the source of his power which makes killing Damien now vital to anybody in H.I.V.E. who doesn't trust him 110%. Genesis will kill some seven billion souls. The power spike Damien would receive would probably push him from extremely difficult to kill right into literal god territory. Certainly not a place you want a guy that might turn on you. |
| 954 | [[/folder]] |
| 955 | |
| 956 | [[folder: Exposing [[spoiler: Laurel's identity]]]] |
| 957 | * Isn't the logic behind Oliver revealing Laurel's identity at her funeral highly flawed? He does it in the name of protecting her legacy. Which makes sense in the immediately context of the episode, but not so much if one really thinks about it. Consider this - Laurel was an ADA who was involved in the prosecution of probably hundreds of criminals. Now that it's known that she moonlighted as a vigilante, wouldn't that taint all the cases she handled, especially ones in which the Black Canary or any other member of Team Arrow were involved in the apprehension of the perpetrator? Wouldn't anyone she got convicted have reasonable grounds for appealing - after all, if the ADA was willing to take the law into her own hands by beating criminals to a pulp, who's to say she wouldn't have stooped to evidence tampering? Not to mention, revealing Laurel's identity puts Quentin Lance, who's already potentially facing some kind of official action over his involvement with Darkh, on even shakier legal ground. To what extent can the good captain's arrests (or any initiative undertaken by him at SCPD) be considered legit if his own daughter was a vigilante (and its doubtful he didn't know about it)? What the reveal essentially leads to is dozens, if not hundreds of criminals, back on the streets because of the tarnished reputations of a prominent ADA and police officer. In trying to safeguard Laurel's legacy, Oliver might have destroyed it. |
| 958 | ** That's a particularly valid concern given that the most prominent case of Laurel's career - Moira Queen's trial - had her violating ever basic rule regarding how a prosecutor cannot introduce secret evidence that the defense attorney has not been made aware of. Granting that was the DA's gambit and not Laurel's, it still doesn't speak well of her that she went through with it. |
| 959 | * Not to mention that it puts the secret identities of the other members of the team at risk as well. As demonstrated by Darkh learning the team's identities after learning who Spartan really was, the same could potentially happen with Laurel's identity being known. Laurel Lance AKA Black Canary happened to be the ex-girlfriend and close friend of one Oliver Queen - a man who her own father ''twice'' accused of being the notorious vigilante known as the Arrow (a known associate of the Black Canary). Oliver's sister's boyfriend was eventually 'exposed' as the Arrow, who operated out of the basement of a club that Oliver himself developed. Speaking of the sister, Thea was living with Laurel at the time of her death, and may well have been aware of her double-life (and there just so happens to be a second female member of Team Arrow, who often closely worked with the Black Canary). It's not really that difficult to connect the dots to the other members identities if one of them is exposed. |
| 960 | ** Well Quentin is facing consequences to his actions. As for Arrow's various "arrests" some of the people will get out on account of Laurel but they tend to go after rather big fish. The kind that would have enough evidence against them that it would probably survive knowing that Laurel was the Black Canary. The real problem is that once you know the identity of one of the members of Team Arrow putting the rest of them together becomes a cake walk. At the end of the day it's partially a matter of how much do you really trust the hospital crew and do you think other people would have pieced it together because it's probably better to get out in front of it. |
| 961 | [[/folder]] |
| 962 | |
| 963 | [[folder: What are computers made of in the Arrowverse?]] |
| 964 | * When Felicity and Cooper are having their hack battle over Rubicon things get a tad intense. It starts with Cooper sending surges to Felicity that begin overloading electrical devices in the house. Over the top? Yeah but I've seen enough light bulbs violently fail that I can let that slide. However when Felicity wins, Cooper's computer sends lose a near lightning bolt that throws him across the room and knocks him unconscious for what appears to be an extended period of time. If computers in the Arrowverse can do that, Felicity needs to take lead on the team. Half their battles could probably be ended by Felicity sending a pop up to their enemies that says 'Click yes if you wanna see me naked.' |
| 965 | ** Obviously, Felicity has magical hacking powers. |
| 966 | ** Clearly the Arrowverse is the past of _Star Trek_, and Starfleet continues to use ExplosiveInstrumentation technology. |
| 967 | [[/folder]] |
| 968 | |
| 969 | [[folder: The nukes (season 4 finale spoilers!)]] |
| 970 | * So, at the end of the season, well over 10,000 nukes are presumably detonated in the atmosphere, just like that? And it doesn't cause a global incident, destroy all aircraft, destroy all satellites, and cause a worldwide nuclear winter? ...Nothing like that? |
| 971 | ** Obviously, the writers didn't think of that. |
| 972 | ** It is possible (though not what the characters appear to have meant) that they caused the missiles to not arm themselves and blow up conventionally instead. |
| 973 | [[/folder]] |
| 974 | |
| 975 | [[folder: Oliver and Amanda Waller]] |
| 976 | * When Oliver met Amanda in Season 2, she seemed to be under the impression that he was "still mad at her" and wanted to kill her, and even Oliver wasn't too happy with her. Now this makes sense in the context of how the Season 3 flashbacks ended (since Waller is the one who forcibly conscripted Oliver into ARGUS and forced him to carry out her missions in Hong Kong and Starling City, while threatening the lives of Maseo's family as well as his own family). It even makes sense given how the Season 4 flashbacks started - with Waller drugging Oliver and getting him dropped on Lian Yu against his will, forcing him to do another mission for her. But given how the Season 4 flashbacks ended, with Oliver and Waller parting on seemingly amicable terms - with Waller offering Oliver a job with ARGUS but giving him a choice and clearly not planning to coerce and manipulate him any longer, it doesn't make sense why Oliver would be "mad" at Waller or want to kill her. Granted, its possible that more stuff happens in the Season 5 flashbacks between them... |
| 977 | ** Oliver has just broken into ARGUS headquarters, and Waller knows that he's become the Starling City vigilante who has already committed several murders. It's not surprising she might wonder if she's also on his list of scumbags to be taken down. |
| 978 | |
| 979 | [[/folder]] |
| 980 | |
| 981 | [[folder: Nora Darhk]] |
| 982 | * What happened to Damien Darhk's daughter? Is she still waiting for him or wandering the streets of Star City? |
| 983 | ** ARGUS probably took her into protective custody when the dust settled, and eventually found her a foster home. She might even have some family on her mother's side to take her in. |
| 984 | * She turns up in ''Series/LegendsOfTomorrow''. |
| 985 | [[/folder]] |
| 986 | |
| 987 | [[folder: MindRape Not A Big Deal?]] |
| 988 | * Does it bother anybody else that Malcolm is NEVER called out on his Mind Rape Drugs? He's done it Thea twice now, forcibly drugging her, turning her into his slave, and taking her free will...and not once is he ever called out on it, nor does he ever face any repercussions for it. You'd think that, if Oliver actually cared about Thea, he would at least comment on it but neither he nor Thea ever point out what a violation it is. What gives? |
| 989 | ** Well, when you consider that Malcolm is responsible for the murder of over 500 people and was party to a plot to literally kill billions...MindRape doesn't seem like that big a deal. I mean if Oliver is willing to look the other way on the former, looking the other way on the latter is easy enough. Doesn't make it any less idiotic though. |
| 990 | ** It's pretty scary when you think about it. Despite how much he ''claims'' to love Thea, Oliver still refuses to lift a finger to stop her primary abuser. |
| 991 | ** Malcolm is just the lucky recipient of AlwaysABiggerFish induced PlotArmor. There is just never a time where Oliver isn't staring down the barrel of a city wide or global threat that Malcolm can help with. |
| 992 | ** The fight on the rooftop at the end of SinsOfTheFather was a perfect chance to kill him actually. At the very least, Oliver could've beaten him down and locked him up at Argus instead of letting him walk away. |
| 993 | ** Well apparently Malcolm, being a League of Assassins member, can escape from any prison and so there's no point in locking him up. This despite the fact that Team Arrow once easily imprisoned Nyssa in a cell in their lair and ''she'' only managed to escape because Thea let her out. |
| 994 | ** Heck Darhk had League training and he couldn't escape a normal prison without his magic or outside help. |
| 995 | ** The entire claim is idiotic. Strip the Assassin naked, do an X-Ray to make sure nothing is stored in their butt, and have there be no exit to the cell at all (like by building it around them) and/or make sure it's nearly inaccessible, like in space or the bottom of the ocean or Antarctica. Lian Yu is a terrible choice. As far as anything has suggested, it's entire "security" is that it's a dangerous island. Oh and one guard. Brilliant. How about 20 armed A.R.G.U.S. agents around that manhole cover 24/7? At the very least, that would prevent a prisoner from escaping on their own. Having some sort of Naval blockade and monitoring of the airspace would be good too. Or hell, rig the island to explode so that if say an army comes to bust someone out you can just blow them the hell up. Or again just put it somewhere harder to access. |
| 996 | [[/folder]] |
| 997 | |
| 998 | [[folder: Nuking Havenrock for Power]] |
| 999 | * Havenrock wasn't the intended target. Damien Darhk had no way of knowing where to suck up the souls from (as the course correction was a last minute thing), so this is assumed to be unimportant for powering up. With that in mind, 150,000 people die daily and 50,000 of those are not of natural causes. Couldn't he have become godlike ages ago just by hanging out in the Nexus collecting souls for a few hours? |
| 1000 | ** They have to die in his name. This generally means he has to kill them himself, but his men killing people seems to work too. |
| 1001 | |
| 1002 | [[/folder]] |
| 1003 | |
| 1004 | [[folder: Why is Felicity still living in the Loft?]] |
| 1005 | * Originally, the Loft was leased by Thea, using her inheritance from Merlyn, and she invited Oliver to live with her. Later, Thea moved out, because she was traumatized by the place owing to her being stabbed there by Ra's, and Oliver moved in with Felicity. Now, post-breakup, Felicity seems to be living there alone. How? Its Oliver's place (or rather, Oliver's sister's place)...why would Oliver move out and not Felicity? Made worse by the fact that, in 4x16, there's actually a scene which shows Felicity ''moving out''...and a few episodes later that's just ignored. And now, as of 5x01, a full ''five months'' later, Felicity is still living there! |
| 1006 | ** In ''The Flash'', Barry Allen time-travels and causes some time-line snarls. Since it shares a universe with ''Arrow'', whatever Barry did there probably affected things in minor ways in Star(ling) City as well. |
| 1007 | ** But this is something that pre-dates Barry traveling back in time to cause Flashpoint and the current CloseEnoughTimeline. |
| 1008 | ** ... Yeah, that's how time travel works. Barry's unintentional changes also caused (among other things) Cisco's brother to be killed by a drunk driver and also removed Sara Diggle from existence, replacing her with John Diggle Jr. Compared to those changes, this is a pretty minor one. |
| 1009 | ** The real answer is it's a nice set and they are loathe to be rid of it. In universe it's probably that at some point following Felicity losing control of Palmer Tech the Queens simply decided to give it to her. It's has nothing to do with the Flashpoint which did effect Arrow but this change was before (as in episodes that aired earlier not the Arrowverse Timeline) that occurred. |
| 1010 | ** WordofGod is that Felicity did get a golden parachute when she was forced out of her executive job at Palmer Tech, so that's how she's still paying the bills (and, presumably, paying for the loft) without a day job. |
| 1011 | [[/folder]] |
| 1012 | |
| 1013 | [[folder: Derek Sampson survived how?]] |
| 1014 | * The chemical mixture Derek Sampson was dunked in gave him super strength and took away his pain. When Green Arrow defeats him it's by cutting his tendons showing explicitly he didn't have super healing or invulnerability. So how did Derek live that long? Green Arrow pinned him to a wall with an arrow, he's shot at minimum three times during the episode. Twice that we see and he's shot off screen and shrugged it off. The thing is even if a bullet didn't hit you anyplace vital and you couldn't feel the pain, you'd die of blood loss sooner than later. Especially if you couldn't feel the pain and thus go seek fairly immediate medical help. Additionally once Oliver figured that out cutting his tendons was cruel and unusual. He had him locked in an armbar, break his elbow. The number of people on the planet, pain or no, who could fight Oliver with one broken arm are pretty close to zero. He could easily have broken the other arm, maybe an ankle or two and done less long term damage. As it stands even with modern medicine Derek may never use those limbs properly again. |
| 1015 | ** There's only evidence that he didn't have Wolverine/Deadpool-level almost instant magical healing ability, and some evidence that he did have enhanced healing; he wasn't bleeding or otherwise incapacitated from the shoulder wound Oliver gave him in their first encounter when he shows up later, and the aforementioned bullet wounds. So Oliver incapacitated him with wounds that Samson couldn't ignore and, even if he could somehow heal from them (a cut tendon is impossible to heal naturally), would take some time to do so. |
| 1016 | [[/folder]] |
| 1017 | |
| 1018 | [[folder: Curtis' knowledge about Oliver's pre-Season 4 career]] |
| 1019 | * In 5x06 ("So It Begins"), Curtis, along with the other recruits, is surprised by the revelation that Oliver was active as the Hood four years ago, believing it was "some other guy under the hood". But why? Just a few episodes ago, he seemed to know about Roy Harper (who was publicly exposed as the Arrow) and the fact that Roy was a protegee of Oliver's. Also, in the Season 4 finale, he was present when Felicity told Donna that she's been working with the Green Arrow for the last "three years". Considering all this, shouldn't he already have been aware that Oliver was the original Arrow? |
| 1020 | [[/folder]] |
| 1021 | |
| 1022 | [[folder: The List as a 'Kill-List']] |
| 1023 | * One of the major plot points of 5x06 was that the new team was horrified by the thought that Oliver was a serial killer because he had a 'kill-list' comprising of lawyers, judges, councilmen etc. - and no one from the original team, least of all Oliver, contradicts them. But the truth is that the List was never a 'kill-list'. Oliver didn't use killing as a "first resort" (as is erroneously stated by Diggle this episode) but as a "last resort". His MO usually involved either extorting the people on the List, or exposing them and bringing them to justice. The only two people on the List Oliver actually killed were Guillermo Barrera (an assassin whom he killed in combat) and Ted Gaynor (whom he killed to save Diggle's life). So the notion that Oliver was some kind of assassin eliminating people on the List is a complete contradiction of what was seen on screen in Season 1. |
| 1024 | ** Flashpoint, the Legends screwing around with history, some other temporal-related shenanigans, take your pick. Pretty much every single ContinuitySnarl in the Arrowverse can be handwaved away by time travel. |
| 1025 | ** He may not have always killed the people on the list, but any security guards those people happened to have hired were usually not so lucky. |
| 1026 | *** It's not the fact that he was a killer which shocked the recruits in the episode though. It's the notion that he was a serial killer targeting people on the List for assassination, which does not at all reflect the way he actually operated in Season 1. Oliver killing mooks when necessary is something he's doing in Season 5 as well...somehow, its being assumed that what he was doing in Season 1 was something completely difference. The truth is that the only real difference between Oliver's MO in Season 1 and in Season 5 is that the scope of his activities is no longer confined to a List (and he seems to have an understanding with the SCPD). |
| 1027 | [[/folder]] |
| 1028 | |
| 1029 | [[folder: Felicity not doing anything important?]] |
| 1030 | * It's fair for other hackers to believe that Felicity hasn't done anything important since her hacker days--since they obviously don't know what she's been up to--but what's odd is that ''Felicity'' seems to accept that argument judging from her being defensive about it and seemingly being tempted with the information she was given in addition to proof of Diggle's innocence. Aside from being MissionControl for a bunch of superheroes she has (a) been critical in stopping a supersoldier and thus preventing the bombing of the city, (b) helped prevent the outbreak of a virulent and deadly plague, (c) helped stopped an alien invasion. Oh and (d) ''saved the world from nuclear annihilation''. The "hacktivists" have supposedly helped point out government and big business corruption? That's so ''cute''. Again, one can understand why she doesn't tell her fangirl to bugger off, but there's no reason for Felicity to be bothered by it. |
| 1031 | ** Well, the real answer is probably bad writing or the writers forgot, but that's not nearly as interesting. I would say that Felicity isn't so much worried that she was doing ''nothing'' as she was worried that she had ''changed''. Before, she was actively going after corruption and abuse of power; now she just helps other people respond to supervillains who take the initiative. Sure what she's doing is helpful, but it's not really making society a better place in any meaningful way beyond "people don't get killed this time". Given that, it's reasonable for Felicity to feel she's lost herself (or at least who she was) in some way. |
| 1032 | [[/folder]] |
| 1033 | |
| 1034 | [[folder: Diggle wants to be in prison! So let's break him out!]] |
| 1035 | * What exactly are Lyla and Oliver THINKING when they broke John out of prison? Not only does he WANT to remain in jail (which makes how easily John just goes with it when Oliver shows up nonsensical) but there had to be at ''least'' 50 different perfectly legal avenues that they could have used to gotten him out to try first before they resorted to that, especially with the director of ARGUS being his wife. If they had at least established previously that he was in danger from his Commander trying to get him killed while Dig was in prison it would make sense, but there's nothing that gives any indication they were under any sort of pressure to get him out. Lyla jumped straight to "BREAK JOHN OUT!!!" and Oliver is like "Okay", that was the extent of the conversation. |
| 1036 | ** Lyla makes the argument that John isn't thinking clearly out of guilt, and she is correct. Furthermore, John has a son to think of; he doesn't have the luxury of being allowed to sit in prison boo-hoo-hooing, not when he and those closest to him know full well that he's innocent. As far as Lyla and Ollie are concerned, Dig's obviously family, and sometimes family's job is to do what's best for you when you're full of shit. |
| 1037 | ** Yes, but the problem is they didn't even TRY anything else, they just jumped straight to breaking Diggle out. At least the second time Diggle ends up in prison the General is actively trying to get him killed, so they have good reason to get him out right then, but there was nothing like that established the first time. Hell, as a last resort getting Diggle assigned to the Suicide Squad for a few missions before he's pardoned would have been risky but at least legal. |
| 1038 | |
| 1039 | [[/folder]] |
| 1040 | [[folder: Nepotism in the mayor's office in season 5]] |
| 1041 | * So Oliver Queen is now the mayor of Star City...and he's hired his sister as his chief secretary? Isn't that nepotism, pure and simple? |
| 1042 | ** Yes, yes it is. |
| 1043 | ** It's pretty common to give friends and family members key roles in your administration. Heavily frowned upon, but not actually illegal. The fact that Thea is good at her job (arguably better than Oliver) probably helped smooth out some of the public problems with the appointment. |
| 1044 | ** Plus, Thea has a history that would arouse the public's sympathy. Both her parents were murdered (one of them violently before her eyes). Her mother was on trial for mass-murder. She had a drug-habit but then got clean, did community service at CNRI, and basically turned her life around by successfully running a club and later working as her brother's campaign manager. Her ex-boyfriend (as far as the public is concerned) turned out to be the vigilante known as the Arrow, who ended up surrendering to the authorities and was killed in prison. She's had a pretty rough life and yet persevered and managed to pull herself together and follow in her parents' and brothers' footsteps to do something for the city - hell, the public probably loves her more than they do Oliver! |
| 1045 | [[/folder]] |
| 1046 | |
| 1047 | [[folder: "I kill because I like it!]] |
| 1048 | * Do you now? Then why did you have a whole season-long arc about NOT DOING THAT? Or all the times you stopped other people from killing? Come to think of it, you could have stayed in the Bravta and been a mob killer, or stayed in the League of Assassins. This makes no sense! If he liked killling, he never would give his "victims" a chance, rather than sparing everyone he could. Prometheus, if he liked killing, you would not be here! What with his bombing skills, archery skills, and ability to walk in to your house as the MAYOR WHOM YOU WORK FOR and plant a bomb!This was literally made up last minute to try and shook viewers! |
| 1049 | ** It's made clear at the end of "Disbanded" that Chase is merely a psychopath projecting his own love of killing onto Oliver in order to break him and for the sake of rationalizing his own actions. Almost everything Chase claims about Oliver during the episode applies to him even more than it does Oliver if it applies to Oliver at all. |
| 1050 | ** Plus, for your original points, he had that whole season-long arc because he wanted to honor Tommy. I'm pretty sure that between something you have a guilty pleasure about and honoring your best friend by not fulfilling that guilty pleasure, you'd chose the latter. As for the Bravta, he wanted to go home to his family and fulfill his father's List, which Oliver could use as an excuse to kill them. Besides, for the League of Assasins, A. He was going to be brainwashed into becoming Ra's heir, and forced to kill people, in the leagues honor and code, something I'm pretty sure is a bit of a Bad Thing. B. He's being forced to marry (and possibly rape to produce a heir) a queer woman who was the lover of one of his great friends, dishonoring her memory and C. He would have to destroy Star City. Even if Oliver liked killing, I'm pretty sure that he's not going to just easily cross those lines because he enjoyed [[NeckSnap snapping people's necks.]] |
| 1051 | ** There's a legitimate question about whether Oliver really enjoys killing or whether he just finds it really easy. If he enjoyed killing there were many opportunities, even back in Season One, where he could have simply offed an opponent but he tended to at least try to take another option first, which argues against the "enjoying" part. On the other hand, if the truth was that he found it easy, then that explains his actions much better: he doesn't enjoy killing, but he's so good at it that it becomes his default option when faced with an obstacle. "I'm giving you the chance to surrender. No? Okay, dead. Hmm, I'm stuck in an awkward situation in which I could try to find a way out. Or I could just kill that guy. Sucks to be him." In essence, he killed because he was too lazy to look hard for other options or unable to see them. When all you have is a hammer, ''et cetera et cetera''. Later seasons were him trying to overcome that, to look for those other options before resorting to killing. All Adrian did was to make him think he enjoyed causing death when really it was that causing death was what he was really good at, and he's begun to believe the latter was because of the former. |
| 1052 | [[/folder]] |
| 1053 | |
| 1054 | [[folder: The mayor and DA's absence during "Kapiushon"]] |
| 1055 | * I might be jumping the gun here as it's possible "Disbanded" will address this issue, but knowing ''Arrow'' by now, I wouldn't be surprised if they [[HandWave glossed over it]]. So, doesn't anyone notice that the mayor of Star City has been missing for nearly a week with no explanation? Maybe Chase comes in from time to time and gives them a bullshit excuse? Or is he torturing Oliver during normal work hours, which would make him absent as well? Maybe during the times he's ''not'' at the prison he's still not in the public eye at all, for all we know. So if the two highest city officials have mysteriously disappeared, you'd think there be some sort of uproar. Furthermore, when Oliver is finally released, how does he make it back all the way to the Bunker, in a severely weakened state (both physically and psychologically) with no disguise, without anyone else recognizing him? My guess is that this was probably at something like 4:30 AM when there's practically no one around anywhere, but even then, you'd think ''someone'' would see him. |
| 1056 | ** Main question gets an answer in 'Disbanded': Quentin told the council that Ollie was doing a spiritual retreat, while Chase took a leave of absence following his wife's death. As for the second question: cold, tea, and the will to not be unmasked? |
| 1057 | [[/folder]] |
| 1058 | |
| 1059 | [[folder: Prometheus Recruiting [[spoiler: Black Siren]]]] |
| 1060 | |
| 1061 | * Granting that security at STAR Labs is a joke and that he easily could have snuck in during one of HR's many, many coffee breaks, how the heck did Prometheus find out that Black Siren existed and was being held in The Pipeline in the first place? |
| 1062 | ** For that matter, how did he find out about Sara Lance, The Waverider crew and all the information that Black Siren would have needed to convincingly cover up her apparent resurrection? |
| 1063 | ** Also, granting that Prometheus did somehow find all this information, how could he have have overlooked something that was a matter of public record, such as Laurel being fired from her job for alcohol and drug abuse and her subsequently attending AA meetings with her father? I mention this because before Felicity busted out the nanotrackers, I thought the reason she was smiling when "Laurel" took the champagne at the the impromptu "Hey! Black Canary isn't dead!" party was that the real Laurel would have said something about being offered a drink. |
| 1064 | ** In regards to Prometheus knowing about Sara and the Waverider, Evelyn probably told him. Remember, Rene, Curtis and Rory were present during the Dominator Invasion, and afterwards, they were told about Flashpoint, so they most likely heard about the Waverider as well, since Oliver, Thea and Diggle were inside it at one point. And since they still thought of Evelyn as an ally, they probably told her all about that as well. Black Siren is a little trickier to explain, but then again, she wasn't exactly subtle during her rampages throughout Central City, so some blurry images or video recordings of her might exist somewhere. Combined with the fact that the CCPD at least acknowledged the existence of "evil meta twins" for people in Season 2, and it's plausible that Chase worked out that Black Siren was from another universe. It's also possible that Oliver, Felicity, or Diggle mentioned that Team Flash used the Pipeline as a private prison to Evelyn, and Prometheus simply put two and two together. |
| 1065 | ** OP here. While I'll concede that Evelyn may have been told everything about Flashpoint and Invasion after the fact or had the ability to find out (heck, given that she was able to hack Laurel's Canary Cry choker to work for her, she may even have been able to hack the computer in The Bunker or had a login to look at old case files for all we know), it still doesn't add up. Granting that Black Siren was as subtle as {{Creator/BrianBlessed}} leading a parade while riding an elephant and shouting "Look at how subtle we're all being!", Team Flash went out of their way to cover up her existence and specifically said they shouldn't tell Sara or Quentin about her. It certainly doesn't explain why - since Team Flash was supposed to be feeding all the prisoners in The Pipeline several times a day - they didn't notice her missing right away and call Team Arrow to warn them. |
| 1066 | ** Team Flash may have covered up her existence from Quentin and Sara for a time, but they obviously told Oliver and Felicity at some point considering how quickly those two caught on to the charade. As for feeding, it is possible that they might have some automation involved with feeding. Considering we don't know how they care for the prisoners in the Pipeline, we can only speculate. If they mainly watch through security cameras, since Prometheus hacked them, he probably set them on a loop so they didn't notice until after Team Arrow called. |
| 1067 | ** OP Again. We DO know how they feed the prisoners in The Pipeline. There is a DeletedScene where we see [[https://youtu.be/9-1x8pAmHBM Caitlin and Barry talking]] while Caitlin is in the middle of distributing take-out. This implies multiple daily direct check-ins. |
| 1068 | ** While that's true, it's also likely that they have a way to get the food into the cells without actually opening the doors (since giving the Mist or Peek-A-Boo even the tiniest opening would allow them to escape). Granted, it's still weird that they didn't notice right away, but then again, considering the lengths Prometheus went to in order to spring Black Siren, there could've been a number of things that could've been done to keep Team Flash from noticing immediately. For all we know, there was a realistic hologram of Black Siren in the cell in her place or something. |
| 1069 | ** Of course this does indirectly raise the bigger question of why Team Flash didn't contact Lyla and ARGUS about discretely hiding Black Siren in the first place since - at that point - they weren't imprisoning people in The Pipeline on a regular basis and they knew about ARGUS having special secret prisons for people they didn't want going to Iron Heights. (Captain Boomerang went to one of them.) |
| 1070 | *** For all we know, they did inform them and it was decided it would be better for her to remain in the Pipeline for some reason. Or maybe Team Arrow were told and they decided not to tell ARGUS about it. Lyla may have known but decided to let her husband keep this little secret. In any case, after 5x11, they do send her to ARGUS. |
| 1071 | [[/folder]] |
| 1072 | |
| 1073 | [[folder: You Didn't Back My Play!]] |
| 1074 | |
| 1075 | * So after several episodes of Felicity deliberately hiding information from Team Arrow about what she was doing with Helix, coming up with excuses of 'It's not the right time' or 'Don't worry about it.', Team Arrow catches onto what Helix is doing and naturally want to stop them. Felicity smugly gets in Oliver's face and tells him he'll have to stop her. Cut to the warehouse fight in which one of Felicity's hacker friends tries to KILL Diggle and Felicity still not only protects them but activates a laser grid to stop Oliver. THEN she comes waltzing back into The Arrow Cave and whines that Oliver didn't back HER play? WhatTheHellHero? doesn't even begin to cover her freaking hypocrisy here! |
| 1076 | ** I have thought bout this long and hard, and I have come to view this as a case of BothSidesHaveAPoint, slightly more on Olivers side. Felicity is right that they can't exactly tell her that it's wrong for them to tell her what ''she's'' doing is morally wrong considering that they've done plenty of stuff like that (I.E. Oliver joining the League without telling anyone but Merlyn, kidnapping Diggles family, helping Merlyn with the League instead of just offing him in the first, giving Malcolm the Demons Head ring instead to Nyssa, letting Malcom be around Thea even though he's a ''incredibly'' AbusiveParent, running off to Lian Yu after the Undertaking instead of helping, Diggle keeping the whole investigation of his brother and the important connection to H.I.V.E, Lyla keeping Cayden James prisoner without due trial or anything, Oliver letting the Bravta into Star City to deal with Chase while Felicity used Helix [Which I'm pretty sure is the lesser evil], some of these arguably worse then her Helix stuff.) Oliver is right that Helix is a legitimately bad organization, and that what she/they are doing is wrong. Also, does she know about how Alena nearly killed Diggle ? I don't remember it being addressed at all. So it probably will be addressed next episode [[spoiler: When they're locked in the Bunker]]. Really, I want to see how it's going to go down with Lyla and Diggle, considering while Diggle's right about the illegality of it all, but Lyla's right about the whole "it's harder on the other side of the desk" thing and how it's different for running a government agency. |
| 1077 | ** The episode ''Underneath'' basically explained away most of the above complaints. |
| 1078 | *** You are also forgetting that both Arrow/Flash (LoT doesn't do it much) run their drama alot on "he/she/they didn't tell me something so i will now bitch despite doing the EXACT same thing" mostly from Felicity, who to be honest, is a nosy sod, constantly wondering why people don't let her in the loop about stuff that REALLY isn't her business, then bitching about not being told crap that isn't her business, then having the audacity to be offended when people want to know business that is something they should really REALLY know. |
| 1079 | [[/folder]] |
| 1080 | |
| 1081 | [[folder: Why does the Bunker need a methane pipe?]] |
| 1082 | * I'm probably being stupid here as I know nothing about building codes or design, but why does the Arrow Cave need a methane pipe, as shown in the episode "Underneath"? Especially given the dangers it poses as seen in the episode. Heating, I guess? Fuel? But don't they have better methods of doing that, or at least they should? It just seems more like a liability than anything. |
| 1083 | ** Given their proximity to the sewers and need for an off-the-grid power-source, a methane-powered generator would be an ideal solution and it wouldn't be any more risky than any other gas-based system. As noted in the episode, it only became a liability when Team Arrow found themselves having to break out of their own secret lair rather than stopping someone from breaking in - a far more likely scenario. |
| 1084 | [[/folder]] |
| 1085 | |
| 1086 | [[folder:Prometheus can see all of time and space]] |
| 1087 | * How exactly does Prometheus know absolutely everything ever? He knew about William because something something plot, he somehow knew that Oliver was not just the new arrow, but every arrow (the city thought he was dead after season three), he knew about Black Siren just cause, and he knows exactly how Oliver will respond to anything he does so he can be a mastermind. I get the villain being one step ahead, as the hero is reacting, not plotting, but he knows way more than anyone possibly could. Maybe he knew from [[spoiler:Talia]] that Oliver was the first Arrow, and pieced together that he was not dead, but everything else is unexplained. How did he know where the base was? How did he know that he would become the DA? WHO IS HIS INFORMANT? THE WRITERS? |
| 1088 | ** Well first off, we still don't know everything about Prometheus. Second of all, we know that he had obsessively been studying Oliver after his father died, trying to figure out everything in order to defeat him. It's likely that he just has been ''incredibly'' determined in it all. Third, we know he and Oliver are roughly the same age, so it's likely he already had a law degree and simply added what he already had for credentials and some more when he changed his name and erased all traces of Simon Morrison. Fourth, Chase is not an idiot, he likely can tell "The Hood killed my father/The Arrow shows up later with same skills and same outfit, so Hood=Arrow/Arrow supposedly Roy Harper, but Roy Harper was also Arsenal and/or known to work with Arrow in the Siege and nothing else came up about Arsenal again after Arrow thing, so Arrow being Roy Harper=Arsenal was Roy Harper and he's covering for his boss/Green Arrow shows up few moths later has exact same skills as Arrow and sidekick Speedy wears same suit as Arsenal so=The Arrow(Oliver Queen) has returned and his sister is now Speedy." Might be slightly inconsistent, but I'm pretty sure he had already figured out Oliver was the Arrow and all the above and Talia just filled him in on the details. Fifth, he probably was learning everything about Oliver and since it was known he was a notorious cheater, he likely knew a bit about Samantha (We don't know how well known their affair was), he saw Samantha move to Central City and give birth within 9 months of being with Oliver, had suspicions but confirmed them by keeping watch over them over the years (Possibly even taking an active role in their lives somewhat). Sixth, as noted in an above Headscratcher, Evelyn probably told him about alternate Earths and stuff, and he pierced it together. |
| 1089 | ** But that would mean, that within five years(or a little less), Prometheus A) created a new identity with a high-end law degree and convincing-enough backstory that no-one asks any weird questions, B)found Talia Al-Ghul, C)dated a woman and got married, and D)deduced that Oliver was the Arrow(remember, Oliver had been questioned and found not to be the Hood, so he was not high on the suspect list.) That is a hefty list for 5-ish years. I do not know if Talia was aware of the Arrow until Prometheus showed up, but lets just say she was, so those are two birds with one stone. Speaking of which, how'd he find Talia? He was not looking for her, and I doubt she was looking for him. Also, you cannot just add credentials to a law degree and change identities. He either went back to school, further lessening his time, or he faked a degree. The fake degree could be discovered with a simple phone call, unless he hacked the computers, but no-one would remember him, so problems could arise. He also could have a fake school for the degree, but a google search can find that, so neither would work. If he just legally changed his name, there would be a paper trail. I find it hard to believe that one man, even a determined sociopath who is quit intelligent, could do all this in 5 years. Why did he get married? That just took time from his plan and made it more difficult(loses some money on a house and family, can't be out all the time unless he wants a divorce, more likely his gear will be found, etc.) It just does not add up. |
| 1090 | ** Figuring out Oliver was the Arrow would've been rather simple once he met up with Talia. Even if he deduced the Arrow's identity first, it's really not that difficult to figure out considering a historian was able to do the same. As for the legal stuff and how he got a DA job, normally you'd probably be correct, but considering Star City's crime rate and how often top officials are killed, they were probably desperate for anyone to take the job, and didn't look too closely into his background. Hell, they allowed someone with no political experience to be Mayor, they're clearly low on options. |
| 1091 | [[/folder]] |
| 1092 | |
| 1093 | [[folder:How come nobody ever investigated the Lian Yu story?]] |
| 1094 | * I mean for real. Oliver is quite the star in Star(ling) City (heh), so after he came back from the dead and claimed to have spent 5 years on that island, how come nobody EVER investigated this? I mean I can buy Oliver staying undetected in Hong Kong and Russia, but SOMEBODY, press, bloggers or whatever else, must have been curious enough to check this place out at which point Oliver would have gotten under police investigation. After Fyers, Ivo, Reiter and Kovar and all their men, there must be ''well'' over 100 dead bodies on this island, along with destroyed military hardware, crashed helicopters/planes, a wrecked american ship etc. How could all this have stayed undetected for so long? |
| 1095 | ** Well obviously it hasn't: considering ARGUS has a compound/prison on the island, it's likely that anyone who tried to investigate (unless they're someone exceptionally skilled and connected like Chase) was ordered to leave immediately. |
| 1096 | ** Considering that the Chinese government banished Yao Fei to it, clearly it's basically a dead mans zone that only governments and some fishermen know about. |
| 1097 | [[/folder]] |
| 1098 | |
| 1099 | [[folder:How did Felicity not get tossed in prison by ARGUS?]] |
| 1100 | * Even with the fact that ARGUS was holding Cayden in an illegal black site, how is it possible Lyla hasn't had Felicity scooped off the street and thrown in an ARGUS prison cell? Even if she would want to cover it up for Diggle's sake or similar, I can't see the U.S. government just shrugging and saying oh well to all the crimes she commited that night. |
| 1101 | ** It's Felicity. When has the CreatorsPet ever faced consequences for her actions? Remember, this is the same woman who sent the new recruits to flat out attack Oliver when he was trying to break Diggle out of prison and wasn't called on it. The same woman who goes behind his back and changes orders to the team. The same woman who threw a temper tantrum and broke up with Oliver because he just discovered that he had a son he didn't immediately tell her about. Breaking Cayden out of prison and attacking ARGUS personnel is just par for the course with her. |
| 1102 | [[/folder]] |
| 1103 | |
| 1104 | [[folder:Who's minding the store?]] |
| 1105 | * So, the company goes to from the Queens to Ray... who goes off to the Legends. Then to Felicity... who gets the boot for prioritizing the fight with Damien Darhk over the company. (Not that they knew what she was up to, of course.) The question is, who's running it now? We know it's back under the Queen name at ''some'' point in the future thanks to Eobard Thawne's future newspaper over in "The Flash," though... |
| 1106 | ** At the moment, probably the board of directors and that Simon fellow who informed Felicity she'd been forced out as CEO are running things. However, Oliver and Felicity probably still own Palmer Technologies outright. You'll remember that Isabel Rochev forced a hostile takeover at the end of Season 2. Logically, Ollie should still own that part of the company since that couldn't legally be taken from him and he used that to make a bid for the company at the start of Season 3. That was when Ray Palmer came in, bought up the rest of the stock and changed the name to Palmer Technologies. He then signed the ownership over to Felicity. Regardless of whether or not she's the CEO, she should still own everything. |
| 1107 | [[/folder]] |
| 1108 | |
| 1109 | [[folder:Roy's Suspicious Absence]] |
| 1110 | * Alright, so I understand that they can't get Colton Hayes back on the show, but is there any In-Universe explanation for Roy never showing up again, aside from him being in hiding? I mean, when Oliver was recruiting Malcolm, Slade, and Harkness(All a bunch of terrorists on his side, and aside from Slade, untrustworthy bastards) it never occurred to him to get Roy, someone he knows is capable and trustworthy, to fight too? Oliver and Thea's conversation in 5x20 implies that they know where he is/are in contact with him, so not being able to reach him isn't a good excuse. Also, why didn't Adrian try to capture him? If he could find out wherever William was, he should be able to find Roy easily. Finally, why has it never occurred anyone to try and get Roy's name cleared? Oliver's the Mayor, and Lyla runs a government agency, so it should be pretty freaking easy to go "Hey, let's give Roy a pardon so he doesn't have to constantly hide anymore?" |
| 1111 | ** Re: Why didn't Ollie call Roy? Time was of the essence and Roy's resources are relatively limited. Even if Ollie could easily get a hold of Roy on a day's notice, Roy probably couldn't drop everything without drawing suspicion and get to Star City in time. Last we saw Roy, he was eking out a simple existence as a mechanic and not staying at any one shop for too long. Depending on where he was, he could be several days driving from Star City and - given his lack of proper ID and the intense security involved - he couldn't very well fly to Star City. |
| 1112 | ** Re: Why didn't Adrian kidnap Roy? Adrian may have taken the story about Roy dying in prison at face value and not bothered to investigate further. Additionally, there might not have been a paper trail at ARGUS tracking Roy like there was with William. Ollie would have wanted someone keeping tabs on his son, even if he had no idea where he was. Roy, by contrast, could look after himself. |
| 1113 | ** Re: Roy getting a pardon. There is almost literally no good that could come from doing this. Remember that the main reason Roy is in hiding is that the world at large thinks Roy Harper is dead thanks to the incident in prison where they faked his death. While ARGUS probably could come up with some story about him being a deep-cover agent, there is literally no reason for them to do so. It hardly profits them to admit to having employed a vigilante in any capacity. It makes even less sense for Ollie to try and use his position as mayor to offer a pardon to a dead man, so he could come out of hiding - a dead man who confessed to being The Arrow to clear Oliver Queen and... oh wait, doesn't that seem suspicious? |
| 1114 | [[/folder]] |
| 1115 | |
| 1116 | [[folder:How did Anatoly get his men out on bail?]] |
| 1117 | * Really, one half assaulted several police officers on duty and the DA (they didn't know yet he was Prometheus) with freaking Assault Rifles, absolutely willing to kill them, and the other half took dozens of hostages. How was Anatoly not arrested too when he bailed them out and who on Earth would agree to this? |
| 1118 | ** I'm not certain how it actually works, but I've always classified bail as how much money you need to pay to get someone out, no matter what, so basically all law enforcement can do is put it up high, depending on your crime. As for attacking Chase and the police officers, they could bullshit about how [[BlatantLies they knew he was Prometheus, and were trying to get justice but the police officers got in their way.]] I don't really know, but that's what I come up with. |
| 1119 | [[/folder]] |
| 1120 | |
| 1121 | [[folder:The ASIS are idiots]] |
| 1122 | * OK, so I've been recently rewatching Season 1, and I'm currently on "Betrayal", the episode where Slade reveals how Wintergreen and him were part of the Australian Secret Inteligence Service, and their masks are the ASIS classified operation equivalent of a balaclava to hide their identities. I thought about this for about 15 seconds before I started asking questions, and then it started growing: '''''How the hell have they not noticed Slade???''''' They clearly know about Lian Yu, as they sent Slade and Wintergreen there to rescue Yao Fei, but they were crashed down. Fair enough, and I don't know how long Slade was on the island or how Intelligince Services work, but shouldn't they have tried to mount a rescue mission at some point? And if they did, which would have to be around 2009-2012 because Slide wasn't there, ''how did they not notice Slade's tattered mask on the post?'' Furthermore, we know that for at least a few years, Slade was a mercenary, and dangerous/profilic enough for him to be on ARGUS's Most Dangerous list, so how did A. The ASIS ''not'' know about the mercenary who had an extensive skill set, and wore a mask that looked ''almost exactly like their balaclavas'', and B. Why didn't Waller, or ''anyone'' else at ARGUS notice that either? And most damnably, the Siege. While we don't know if there was any international knowledge on what was going on, but if ARGUS was involved, ''someone'' would have to notice, and if the ASIS had any idea of what was going on, or the Australian government, or anyone else with enough resources really, a huge group of people who were super strong and were tearing up a city, ''blatantly wearing the ASIS's masks,'' '''you'd think someone would ask some questions about what the hell is going on.''' |
| 1123 | ** Who's to say they didn't notice Slade? Its entirely possible that at some point ASIS noticed that this 'Deathstroke' guy traveling the globe killing people was probably a former operative of theirs - either Slade or Wintergreen. And its entirely possible that they decided to just ignore him as long as he wasn't a direct problem for them. Remember, Slade was probably a black ops agent carrying out highly sensitive missions. If an asset like him goes rogue, its probably best to deny his existence. What does ASIS have to gain from, say, going to ARGUS with intel on Deathstroke's possible true identity and getting involved? |
| 1124 | [[/folder]] |
| 1125 | |
| 1126 | [[folder: How old is William supposed to be???]] |
| 1127 | Okay, we know that he was conceived sometime before Oliver went on the Queen's Gambit, which makes him at least ten years old at this point. In Season 4, he was playing with action figures, and the way that other characters talk to him and his dialogue makes him sound young, like 6-8. ("The bad man"????) However, his actor looks closer to 12. |
| 1128 | ** During the 'Legends' crossover in Season 4, he was said to be 10. That would make him around 12 at the start of Season 6.[[/folder]] |
| 1129 | |
| 1130 | [[folder: How could Oliver possibly think anybody would buy the 'John is Green Arrow' charade?]] |
| 1131 | * I mean really, the Green Arrow has been seen in public several times, he even spoke to officials quite often. How could he possibly think that nobody would notice he is suddenly a black guy instead of a white guy? |
| 1132 | ** Quite easily actually. The vast majority of video of Green Arrow is grainy and from a great distance. The same would be true for Diggle. So the police shouldn't have any proof of his race and this was originally about him getting to spend time with William not about having a distraction out there so he probably didn't care initially if people new that this was a new guy under the hood. |
| 1133 | [[/folder]] |
| 1134 | |
| 1135 | [[folder: With Vigilante's identity now revealed...]] |
| 1136 | * While I do think TheReveal of it all does make a lot of sense and puts everything we know about the character across seasons 5 and 6 into place (despite being a somewhat anticlimactic reveal), there is one thing I don't get--shouldn't people have kept track of what happened to Vincent's body following him getting shot in the head by Sonus? You'd think Dinah would want to bury her former partner and have a proper funeral for him. And even if she couldn't deal with that, presumably the CCPD would still have wanted to recover it, and the fact that it went mysteriously ''missing'' should have been a clue that something wasn't right. I guess they could have decided to cover it up due to embarrassment, but even then they should have been investigating this. |
| 1137 | ** Maybe he woke up in the morgue once the forensic doctor took the bullet out of his head. |
| 1138 | ** Was it ever said that the police recovered his body? Considering that they were in Sonus' clutches, it's not inconceivable that he had Vincent's body disposed of, only for him to recover later. Dinah's testimony later was probably enough to consider Vincent dead, especially since the Dark Matter explosion had just happened and no one had any idea he would become a metahuman. Granted, it's probably something they looked into, but after so many years, it probably just got lower on the list of priorities. |
| 1139 | [[/folder]] |
| 1140 | |
| 1141 | [[folder: Obstructive bureaucrats .]] |
| 1142 | * Why do both, the counsilwoman and the FBI's agent, think it's a good idea arrest the Green Arrow and company? It has been proved that they're the only ones capable of dealing with the kind of menaces Star City faces on annual basis. |
| 1143 | ** Because it's not Arrow unless he gets in some kind of trouble with law enforcement, which also seems to happen annually. Never mind the fact that even if he was found to be the Green Arrow, I can imagine that the President alone would pardon him and his friends, considering they've been instrumental in saving the planet on no less than three separate occasions. I mean, they kinda have a point about law enforcement morale, but the police were actually good at their jobs, Green Arrow wouldn't be necessary in the first place. |
| 1144 | |
| 1145 | [[/folder]] |
| 1146 | |
| 1147 | [[folder: Why did Black Siren obey Cayden James?]] |
| 1148 | * I mean really, there was literally NO REASON WHATSOEVER for her to comply with killing Vincent. He had absolutely nothing to threaten her with. In the very next episode, Black Siren has no problems pushing James's buttons and blasting him right on his ass with a sonic scream. |
| 1149 | ** You know that same question can apply to Prometheus as well, and the answer seems to be that the writers are trying to make a potential Black Siren redemption seem believable so that she's "not helping them of her own choice." But yeah, the likes of Cayden James or Prometheus kinda pale in the intimidation factor when compared to Zoom, so her submission to both of them is rather odd. Especially considering that she was seemingly Hunter Zoloman's right hand woman, which I find it hard to believe she would get so far if Earth-2 Laurel was even remotely squeamish about killing people. |
| 1150 | ** Simple answer: he's paying her. Or, more precisely, offering her an equal share in a $70 million payday. She turns on him now, she loses that. |
| 1151 | [[/folder]] |
| 1152 | |
| 1153 | [[folder: Black Siren's Theft Of Cayden James' Ransom Funds]] |
| 1154 | |
| 1155 | * The video footage from the bank in Corto Maltese shows Black Siren withdrawing the money, in person. They don't say precisely when the money was taken but it is suggested that it occurred sometime after Cayden James died. It doesn't really matter, however, because previous episodes had established that there was no way in or out of the Star City except by chartered helicopter thanks to James destroying every path out of town and shutting down the harbor and airport. This means that either Black Siren learned of James' death and arranged a way out of the city and traveled to a South American nation on a day's notice to steal the money or (in an even more unlikely scenario) she made arrangements to sneak out of Star City while it was under siege, stole the money, and came back without anyone noticing her absence. |
| 1156 | ** This also ignores the problem of how Black Siren could have accessed the account in person in the first place as it is unlikely the notoriously paranoid Cayden James gave his allies - all of whom are career criminals in some capacity - access to his private secure account. |
| 1157 | ** Regardless of precisely when Black Siren stole the money, there is no logical reason for her to have come back to Star City. If she came back while James was still alive, she risked his finding out about her treachery. If she came back after his death, she risked running afoul of her former allies and Team Arrow. |
| 1158 | ** Her return to Star City is even more nonsensical given her stated goal of just wanting to go away somewhere tropical and disappear. |
| 1159 | ** It's also odd that nobody on Team Arrow thinks to question the footage from the bank and make sure it is legitimate, given their recent troubles with faked video footage being responsible for framing Green Arrow for the murder of Cayden James's son. |
| 1160 | ** And all of this is completely pointless since there's no way Black Siren should have been able to have stolen the money after Cayden James' death, since she spent the entire time immediately after James' capture being held captive by Quentin Lance in his cabin in the woods. |
| 1161 | |
| 1162 | [[/folder]] |
| 1163 | |
| 1164 | [[folder: Diaz's Plan For Roy Harper Makes No Sense]] |
| 1165 | |
| 1166 | * Ricardo Diaz somehow learns that Roy Harper is alive and well. He manages to track him down and capture him. He brings him back to Star City with the intent of torturing him into testifying against Oliver Queen as part of his master-plan to see Oliver Queen formally charged with being The Green Arrow, disgraced, removed from office and sent to prison.\ |
| 1167 | Why does he need to go through that much effort?\ |
| 1168 | As far as the world at large is concerned, Roy Harper was The Arrow/The Hood/The Starling City Vigilante and was killed in prison. Bringing him in alive and revealing that fact to the world would have been just as effective as bringing Roy in to testify against Oliver. Heck, it would have been even more effective since the law requires a prosecuting attorney to share all their evidence with the defense attorney. Calling a press conference and revealing that everything about Oliver Queen's story regarding why he can't be The Green Arrow is a lie would have left him scrambling and condemned the one person who gave him any legitimacy, Deputy Mayor Quentin Lance - the former lead investigator on the previous cases where Oliver Queen was accused of vigilantism!\ |
| 1169 | It's particularly maddening given that Diaz's main fear is The Green Arrow being turned into a martyr that inspires the common people of Star City to fight back against him. Given that his goal is to see Oliver Queen disgraced and without public support rather than just killing him, wouldn't exposing the mayor as a liar who let his sidekick take the rap for him not accomplish that end much more quickly ans easily? |
| 1170 | [[/folder]] |
| 1171 | |
| 1172 | [[folder: Why didn't ARGUS take Black Siren into custody after she pretended to be Laurel?]] |
| 1173 | |
| 1174 | * Black Siren is an escaped fugitive who was released from ARGUS custody by a compromised agent back in Season 5. They've "disappeared" people a lot less threatening than a metahuman terrorist from another Earth. So why didn't they move in to take her after Black Siren pulled her "I'm Laurel Lance and I've been a captive for two years" act? Even if Digg somehow convinced them, through Lyla, to back-off when Quentin asked for her to be given a chance to redeem herself, why didn't they move in after Digg cut ties with Oliver and Team Arrow? |
| 1175 | ** Much like S.H.I.E.L.D. it seems kinda foggy if Argus is under US or some UN shadow organization. It likely changes as the plot desires. That makes the easiest answer that it looked like Team Arrow was okay and they'd rather go deal with whatever is happening in other places because its a higher priority. |
| 1176 | |
| 1177 | [[/folder]] |
| 1178 | |
| 1179 | [[folder: Siren-X and Why It Hasn't Bothered Black Siren]] |
| 1180 | |
| 1181 | * In Series/TheFlash2014 episode "Fury Rogue", Siren-X - the Nazi version of Laurel from Earth-X - is introduced. She comes to Earth-One following Citizen Cold, and initiates a plan to blow up Central City's Police Department using another metahuman as a make-shift nuclear bomb. She is not at all subtle about doing this. She is stopped by The Flash, but the episode doesn't explain if she was arrested by the CCPD or ARGUS. (We know she didn't go back to Earth-X with Citizen Cold.) Either way, given that "Laurel Lance" recently reappeared quite publicly in Star City, shouldn't this be raising a lot of questions in the press? Particularly since Laurel's time as Black Canary is a public record? |
| 1182 | |
| 1183 | [[/folder]] |
| 1184 | |
| 1185 | [[folder: Diaz The Most Frightening Man Black Siren Has Ever Known]] |
| 1186 | |
| 1187 | * Black Siren says that Ricardo Diaz is the most frightening man she's ever known because he burned his childhood bully alive. Consider Black Siren's last three bosses and laugh at how desperate the writers are to make Diaz seem like a threat. More frightening than Zoom - the super-speedster serial killer who conquered an entire Earth and ripped his followers hearts out for questioning him or failing him? More frightening than Prometheus - the man who killed hundreds of people (including his own wife) and subverted an entire city government for the sake of a grudge? More frightening than Cayden James, who was ready to bleed a city dry and see its people starve to death before blowing it up to avenge his son? |
| 1188 | ** Benefit of the doubt to the writers. All three of those men would probably kill her. Diaz would make her wish she was dead. |
| 1189 | ** It seems most bizarre in comparison to Zoom, who wanted to, and very nearly, destroy the entire multiverse sans Earth 1. |
| 1190 | |
| 1191 | [[/folder]] |
| 1192 | [[folder: The events of "Life Sentence" ('''MAJOR season six finale spoilers!''')]] |
| 1193 | * In ''[[Recap/LegendsOfTomorrowS1E6StarCity2046 Star City 2046]]'', it is said that ultimately Grant Wilson is the one who outs Oliver as the Green Arrow. Here, we see that he publicly outs himself. I know it's easy to explain away all time travel continuity errors on [[AWizardDidIt Flashpoint]], but given that John Jr. exists in this future who was only created ''from'' Flashpoint to begin with (which hadn't yet happened when that episode aired), I'm not sure we really can in this case. However, in that same episode we ''also'' heard Old!Oliver say that Ray and Sara never returned after first joining the Legends, which also obviously was later proven false during the annual crossovers as well as of course when Sara returns here in "Life Sentence". Maybe these changes to the original timeline changed what happens here? I dunno, this hurts my head. |
| 1194 | ** Given that Oliver has some sort of revolving door or disbelief in that city Grant revealing him as the Arrow years later after he was supposedly dead is. . .less implausible than other things we've seen. I think John Diggle Jr from Flashpoint and appearing in Star City 2046 is a serious case of writers failing uphill. Either that or they noticed they needed him and used Flashpoint to bring him in. The final one starts becoming a matter of semantics. He said they never came back but given that clearly Legends works on some version of San Dimas Time so them popping into to help or ask for help once a year didn't qualify to him as coming back. He meant they never came home and stayed. A bit of a stretch but between Flash's and the Legend's Gideon the fact that nobody has even suggested we get spoilers for seasons now through forever is silly. Even if they'd get talked down with one of those "nobody should know too much" speeches nobody has even brought it up. |
| 1195 | ** There is absolutely nothing to indicate that the future timeline in 'Star City 2046' is still the future the Arrowverse is heading towards. It was always stated as being a 'possible future', and a number of time-travel events have occurred since then that could have altered that timeline and prevented that future from occurring - Flashpoint, Time Abberations and Anachronisms, the Legends numerous returns to the present-day, and so on. John Jr. being born in the Post-Flashpoint timeline doesn't necessarily mean he becomes the same Connor Hawke whom the Legends met in 2046. Grant Wilson, in any case, would have have been born before the Legends traveled to the future, so he would exist in any future timeline. |
| 1196 | *** As of Season 7, Bronze Tiger was revealed to have a son named Connor who was also referred to as a "Little Hawk" |
| 1197 | [[/folder]] |
| 1198 | |
| 1199 | [[folder: Diaz's knowledge of Oliver's secret identity]] |
| 1200 | * In season six, it was revealed that Diaz was the one who orchestrated everything that happened. But then how did he know about Oliver being the Green Arrow in the first place? |
| 1201 | [[/folder]] |
| 1202 | |
| 1203 | [[folder: Dinah not using her powers]] |
| 1204 | * When Black Siren was going to kill Vigilante, Dinah just cried out "No" over and over. However, nothing was stopping her from using her powers. So, why didn't she use her own cry to stop Black Siren and Cayden James? Also, why was she more concerned with killing Black Siren than killing Cayden James, the person who ordered Vigilante's death in the first place? |
| 1205 | ** Not totally true. She swore she would get vengeance on the cabal starting with Black Siren. |
| 1206 | [[/folder]] |
| 1207 | |
| 1208 | [[folder: The whole redemption for Black Siren thing]] |
| 1209 | * Why does nobody ever stop to think of the possibility that nobody would really care about her if the original Laurel were alive? It all really even seems insensitive that they're apparently trying to replace her. |
| 1210 | ** Well, whether it makes sense or not, there *is* an emotional aspect to it. She is literally a doppelgänger of a close friend and teammate - in Oliver's case, a person whom he "loved for half his life". And for Lance of course, she was his daughter - as he told Oliver "this parallel universe crap is *crap*. So they would certainly like to believe that she can be redeemed, and in that way, honor the original Laurel. They are also trying to honor Lance, who believed that Laurel could change. And she *did* spend most of Season 7 helping the team, including and especially getting Oliver out of prison, and helping the team get deputized. So the team hoping for redemption for Laurel is not *that* far-fetched. |
| 1211 | ** But it's still quite ridiculous, considering they never stop to think what the original Laurel would think of her, and plus her suddenly changing is just stupid after she chose to work with monsters like Zoom and Prometheus. |
| 1212 | [[/folder]] |
| 1213 | |
| 1214 | [[folder: What the hell was that?]] |
| 1215 | * So Emiko dies and the city is saved and that's it? Why hasn't Team Arrow gone after Virgil and the rest of the ninth circle? Those kind of Karma Houdini's are so annoying and unrealistic. |
| 1216 | ** Just like how Diaz got away at the end of the last season, this seems to be less about them being karma houdinis and more setting them up for the final season with their new leader, Beatrice. Only time will tell. |
| 1217 | [[/folder]] |
| 1218 | |
| 1219 | [[folder: Sara's sonic scream thingy]] |
| 1220 | * When Sara guest-stars on Arrow, she has her trademark gimmick from when she was a main character in Arrow, which naturally raises two questions: Why doesn't she use it in Legends, and why doesn't the current Black Canary use it after losing her powers? Especially the handy choker version Laurel used. |
| 1221 | ** The device is called the sonic bracelet and Sara just received it in "Lost Canary" from Felicity, who made it by upgrading Laurel's Canary Cry choker. At the end of the episode, Sara did give the bracelet to Dinah, who used it a couple times in place of her sonic scream. In the new multiverse, Dinah has her powers back so she doesn't need it anymore. Plus, the bracelet is meant to be a symbolic representation of Laurel's [[PassingtheTorch legacy]]. Sara is her own hero and has since moved on from her sister's death so she doesn't need it, and it wouldn't make sense for her to use it. |
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