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1!Per wiki policy, Administrivia/SpoilersOff applies here and all spoilers are unmarked. Administrivia/YouHaveBeenWarned.
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3!!The Musical
4[[AC:FridgeBrilliance]]
5* ''Theatre/SweeneyToddTheDemonBarberOfFleetStreet'' is a lot more interesting when you consider that Sweeney and Anthony are actually foils of each other beyond the simple fact that one is older and broken and more worldly and the other is younger and more optimistic. Going deeper, they are exact opposites in how they react to wrongs committed against themselves and the ones they love. Sweeney discovers that his wife was raped and his daughter was unhappily trapped within the Judge's house, and he concocts a long and complex plot to kill the Judge. Even though he knows Johanna is alive and scared and miserable, he makes no effort to save her unless it contributes to his plan to kill Turpin. His plan, while done in the name of his wife, still only helps himself and compounds the misery and bloodshed. Anthony, on the other hand, knows of Johanna's plight and spends the entire show trying to rescue her. He knows how the judge is mistreating her, and he chooses to try to fix her situation and rescue her instead of get revenge on the judge. This is perhaps best shown when Johanna is being sent to the asylum and Anthony threatens to kill Turpin. At that moment, Anthony can choose between killing the judge (an act of revenge) or chasing after the carriage (directly helping Johanna). He, of course, chooses the latter. That's why he and Johanna survive and escape while Sweeney becomes so horribly broken that he lets himself die. Anthony is really the more heroic of the two!
6** Punctuated by the film scene when Sweeney goes to his shop for the first time in years. He sadly examines the abandoned cradle of his daughter, but seems to quickly forget it when Lovett finds his razors.
7** No kidding Anthony is more heroic -- Sweeney Todd isn't heroic at all. A VillainProtagonist with a FreudianExcuse is not a hero. Even if one regards killing Adolfo Pirelli, Beadle Bamford, and Judge Turpin as justified (huge stretch) he murders a lot of innocent people who just happen to wander in to get a shave (as seen in "Johanna – Quartet"). Anthony would be more heroic than Sweeney even if he never tried to help Johanna, by virtue of not being a mass murderer. The fact that he helps Sweeney Todd prior to the play's beginning, shows more compassion for Lucy Barker than anyone else, and saves Johanna is really just icing on the cake compared to the "not a serial killer" thing.
8** I think what was meant was that these are the ''reasons'' for the two men turning out as differently as they did. Todd turns out the way he does because he prioritises revenge over finding his daughter. Anthony turns out the way he does because he prioritises rescuing Johanna over getting revenge for what had been done to her. Todd lacks empathy and seems to view the wrongs done to his wife and daughter only in terms of how they wronged him.
9** Though, if Todd had chosen to save his daughter, it's more than likely he couldn't do anything to help her. He couldn't get to her without getting too close to the judge and Bamford, and thus he might run the risk of them finding out about his identity and be sent back to Australia.
10** Reinforcing this is ''why'' he decides to help rescue Johanna when Antony tells him where Turpin has stashed her away (the underscoring during Todd's revelations that wigmakers get their hair from the lunatics at Bedlam plays the Judge's opening of "Pretty Women"). He's not interested in helping his daughter escape the man who intends to marry her. If anything, he's let Johanna go completely (as his part in the Johanna Quartet indicates). He's interested in luring Turpin to his shop for some long overdue revenge. Todd doesn't even take steps to ensure her safety, which nearly leads to him giving his disguised daughter a shave when she witnesses him killing Turpin. Granted, this is because he and Lovett are a bit too busy trying to tie up loose ends with Toby (who has also learned their horrible secret and is in danger of revealing it through his mad screamings).
11* Once you learn the Beggar Woman's backstory, subsequent viewings of the musical reveal little hints at it:
12** When Todd arrives back in London, who is there to greet him? Lucy.
13** When Anthony first sees Johanna, who is there watching over her daughter from a distance? Lucy.
14** Who tries calling attention to Mrs. Lovett's lies? Lucy.
15** In "Johanna – Quartet", two of the singers are Anthony and Sweeney, singing about Johanna, and the third is Johanna herself – who is the fourth singer, punctuating the song with her "city on fire" warnings? Johanna's mother, Lucy.
16** Even [[MusicalSpoiler the score itself]] hints at the Beggar Woman's true identity. The Beggar Woman often sings a jaunty and crass jig (which becomes her leitmotif) and in the full libretto is played in full during her lullaby (which is often cut because it gives away the twist before Lovett and Sweeney realize who she is). Where do we else do we hear this jig? During "Poor Thing" (where we hear from Mrs. Lovett what actually happened to Lucy after Barker was falsely transported), most specifically during the minuet that plays just as Lucy arrives at the masquerade...
17* If you take the view that a city is made up of its citizens (rather than, say its geography or architecture), then the Beggar Woman is being quite literal when she screams warnings about the "city on fire."
18* Sweeney's second and successful revenge attempt on Judge Turpin is extra karmic, [[KarmicDeath because it parallels Judge Turpin's original crime against Lucy]]. Judge Turpin lured Lucy to his home with false promises of help, and Sweeney Todd lures Turpin to his home... with false promises of help.
19* [=YouTuber=] Into The Woods did a whole analysis on the music of Sweeney Todd and brings up an interesting tidbit. Critics of the show and the late Creator/StephenSondheim himself have brought up the use of the Gregorian hymn "Dies Irae" (Day of Wrath) during several points of the show. However, Into The Woods has pointed out that the "Dies Irae" itself is only played three times (once during the opening "Ballad", once during "Epiphany" and finally during the final "Ballad"). The other times, it's invoked but never played in it's entirety or with different notes. Why is this important? It's who the "God" figure is (as the "Dies Irae" is a song about facing the Wrath of God during the Final Judgement). In the first two times we hear it, it's implied to be Sweeney himself. The final time? It's God Himself, as bringing retribution upon those who killed the innocent. Fitting, as the line "What happened then, well that's the play and he wouldn't want us to give it away" has changed to "To seek revenge may lead to Hell but everyone does it and seldom as well".
20* The song "Poor Thing" usually has the actors recreate Lucy's rape by Judge Turpin. Traditionally, [[ActingForTwo the actress playing Johanna also doubles as Lucy]] during these scenes. This isn't just to help hide the twist at the end but to show why Turpin decides to do a little bit of WifeHusbandry. It's outright stated by Sweeney himself during "A Barber and His Wife" that Lucy was [[SoBeautifulItsACurse beautiful]] and that's why Turpin targeted her in the first place. It's not just because Johanna is beautiful. It's because [[SheIsAllGrownUp she's a perfect stand in]] [[ReplacementGoldfish for the woman Turpin wanted most]].
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22[[AC:FridgeHorror]]
23* The only character who vouches for Sweeney Todd's innocence is... [[UnreliableNarrator Sweeney Todd]].
24** Mrs. Lovett seems to corroborate that his exile was unjust, but she's not really any more reliable than he is, given that she seems to have had a crush on him as far back as before he was sent away. Her later displayed willingness to use ExactWords and [[MetaphoricallyTrue Jedi Truths]] doesn't help.
25* Look at that poster hopefully still on the main page. Look at how Sweeney Todd is holding that razor. Now think about gravity and momentum and how it could affect the blade.
26** Actually possible FridgeBrilliance; the razor is directly above his eye, and it's a revenge plot...
27* Sweeney's song that marks his descent into madness, "Epiphany", is bad enough on its own. Then you remember that "epiphany" used to mean "a realisation of divine truth". That's right, Sweeney may well have been visited by God. And what does God have to tell him? "We all deserve to die".
28** It makes the line "He served a dark and a hungry God" much more meaningful, but also implies Sweeney really is the agent of some God-like figure. Given the themes of insanity in the show, who's to say there's not an EldritchAbomination kicking around?
29* I was wondering how Mrs. Lovett knew all about Lucy's fate, until the Fridge Horror kicked in. Mrs. Lovett knew ''because she was there''! Lucy may have been a bit naive, but not stupid enough to go to Judge Turpin's house by herself. She thought it would be a good idea to bring another woman like Mrs. Lovett along as a witness, only to find she wasn't so trustworthy. Maybe [[GreenEyedMonster Mrs. Lovett always secretly envied Lucy for having such a handsome husband]]. Maybe she even gave her the poison later. Maybe she even lied that she would take care of Johanna afterwards.
30** I always interpreted it thus: Lucy came home after being raped, in a distraught state, and Mrs. Lovett figured out what happened. Then Lucy either asked about the pharmacist on the corner if she forgot in a moment of confusion, or she just went there and took the arsenic back to her home and Mrs. Lovett recognised the arsenic.
31** She was ''definitely'' there. "Poor Thing" contains details that no one not at Judge Turpin's party could possibly have known.
32*** The other possibility would be that Lucy confided in Mrs. Lovett, believing her to be a friend, and it wasn't until too late that she realized Mrs. Lovett wasn't on her side after all.
33** At one point during "God That's Good", Mrs. Lovett points out the Beggar Woman, saying that she "seems a little beery" and "she got her comeuppance". Now remember who the Beggar Woman really is.
34*** It's possible to read that line as bringing the conversation back to Mrs. Mooney. Based on the text alone, it could really be either.
35** Judge Turpin is a terrible snob. Mrs. Lovett is extremely poor at the outset. She could not have possibly been at his party. He would never have invited her.
36*** He wouldn't have needed to, if she was there with Lucy as companion and chaperone, it being extremely improper for a respectable woman to go to a strange man's house alone.
37** One wonders how a woman who, for months, did nothing but "just lie there in bed" both avoided dying of starvation or thirst and attracted enough attention to end up being committed to Bedlam in the first place. Unless a "friendly" neighbor had something to do with it....
38* The body count at the end is already high, but it gets even higher when you remember that eating human meat can pass on a prion disease that turns your brain spongy. Given how many people Sweeney kills, and how many customers Mrs. Lovett serves, just how many people have unknowingly been infected with a brain disease that will kill them long after Sweeney and Mrs. Lovett are dead?
39** Actually, that prion disease you mentioned is known as kuru, and it's contracted from eating infected brains. It's likely that Mrs. Lovett didn't use every part of the body, probably mostly just the actual flesh and maybe some of the organs (liver and kidneys, for example) and discarded the rest. Kuru is also confined mostly to Papua New Guinea, so it's highly unlikely that the average joe who would visit a pie shop would have ever eaten a kuru-infected brain to bring it to England in the first place. That pie that Toby found hair and a nail in was probably just sloppily made.
40* There's more than a little Fridge Horror in Johanna's willingness to run away with Anthony despite barely knowing him, as this suggests she would have probably run off with any man who seemed nice despite not having enough time to know whether he was genuine or if the kindness was a facade covering up something much nastier. It's essentially dumb luck that the man in question is Anthony, who really is what he seems to be; she could just as easily have ended up escaping one predator (Turpin) only to find herself in the grip of another.
41* It's obvious why the Beggar Woman twist works -- Mrs. Lovett implies Lucy died from taking poison despite never outright saying it. But there's another tiny detail that reinforces the twist -- in "God, That's Good", Mrs. Lovett refers to the Beggar as "the old woman" -- another lie, this time mostly for the audience's benefit, as the audience would know that Lucy Barker, if she lived, would not be as old as Lovett suggests the Beggar Woman is. Perhaps Lovett herself actually perceives Lucy to have become an old crone through some warped vindictive view, as she sees Lucy as standing between her and Todd.
42** Given that Lovett doesn't seem to recognize her during the only scene where she and the Beggar Woman interact (which takes place shortly before "Wait"), it's quite possible that Lovett doesn't even suspect that the lady calling her out on selling pies that "gives the stomach cramps to half the neighborhood" is Lucy. The only time that Lovett ever recognizes Lucy is during the finale in the bakehouse, where she gets a good look at Lucy, says "You...of all the demons in Hell sent to torment me" and is in the process of dragging her to the oven when Todd comes in, having been alerted by Lovett's screams.
43* Lucy was not only horribly violated by Judge Turpin, but it happened to her in full view of witnesses who '''laughed''' at what was happening. This brings up so many horrifying implications.
44** How often does Judge Turpin lure innocent women to his home that these wretched people can treat it like some kind of joke?
45** Do those rich assholes do the same thing to other people?
46* The Beggar Woman carries a bundle that looks like a dead baby. Is it just a doll or a bundle of rags that represents her long-lost baby Johanna? Or is it an ''actual'' dead baby, [[ChildByRape the product of Judge Turpin's rape of her?]]
47** The bundle isn't included in all productions (and doesn't seem to be in the libretto), but it's [[https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/57290b80-db72-0130-75b7-58d385a7bbd0 almost certainly cloth or a ragdoll.]] From a Doylist perspective, if she was meant to be carrying around a corpse for 15 years, someone would have said something in the text of the musical. Also, a corpse would have decayed enough in that time to have become mostly just bones, which wouldn't flop around [[https://youtu.be/ISp5sjaSnl0?si=U-9ewWeYfSZcyHc4&t=5544 as seen here.]]
48* Mrs. Lovett's dislike/hate of Lucy is obviously because Sweeney was/is married to her and she was envious in the past and fearful in the present that he'll learn the truth and her happiness will be ruined -- but there's also a clue in "Poor Thing", since she's dismissive of Lucy's reaction to Judge Turpin and the Beadle courting her, mockingly saying '''Pure'' thing'. Perhaps in Mrs. Lovett's mind, if Lucy had just gone along with what Turpin wanted from the start, Benjamin Barker wouldn't have been deported, so what happened to him is ''Lucy's'' fault.
49* It may seem that Turpin had a change of heart in taking Johanna in after what he did...something that goes right out of the window when Johanna grows up and he's overcome with lust...but not really. A big theme in the show is how the hypocrites get away with various crimes only to get their comeuppance by divine retribution. It's quite possible that, when Lucy attempted suicide after being raped by Turpin, word either started spreading or was in danger of spreading. So in order to save face, Turpin took possession of Johanna and raised her as his own. And given how [[VillainWithGoodPublicity he's still a respected figure of the community]] it worked. Further cementing this is that instead of immediately raping Johanna as he did her mother, he [[WifeHusbandry plans to marry her]] to not only have a reason to rape Johanna whenever he wants but to ensure that nobody would say anything against him.
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51!!The Movie
52[[AC:FridgeBrilliance]]
53* I disliked the bright, paint-looking blood in ''Sweeney Todd: The Demon Barber of Fleet Street''. In a different movie, it might have been okay, but it just made me sick when compared to the subdued, washed-out tones of every other bright color, and the dark, smoke-stained grittiness of London. However, there are two other things in the film that are as clear: the razors and the flashbacks. ''These are the only things that are real to Todd''. Todd's not a completely unfeeling monster (as possibly shown with the father/husband he didn't kill, either because of sympathy or witnesses): though the people mean nothing to him, the killing still affects him. It may not have been the intent of the director and effects artist, but it makes the special effects dissonance much less sickening. -- @/{{JET73L}}
54** Sweeney's not an unfeeling monster, he's a passionate, enraged monster. The blood from his killings is always a pure visual metaphor for his emotions. The intensity of the spray and the gore matches the strength of his rage towards his victim. In the film, there is exactly one cold-blooded execution -- when he kills the Beggar Woman who was actually his long thought dead wife, he is only concerned with getting her out of the barber shop so that he can have his revenge on Judge Turpin. He has no emotion toward her, and she's not even the object of his general rage at the world -- he just wants her out of the way quickly, so her blood doesn't spurt, just flows in an even, undisturbed sheet down her neck. At the end, as he's mourning his slain wife, he feels not rage, but sorrow, and weeps tears of blood from his own slit throat. -- @/TwinIonEngines
55*** Uhh, the entire point of the "Johanna" song is that he's killed so much that he's become detached and really doesn't care. -- @/{{Pannic}}
56*** i largely disagree with Pannic's point here, because that song doesn't illustrate any cause-and-effect between his murders resulting in his detachment, but rather that he can't get over the grief of never reuniting with his wife again. his connection to Johanna is through the relationship he shared with Lucy before they were separated when his daughter was still an infant, and as he sings in the song, the likeness she probably now resembles to her [[spoiler:(in his belief)]] late mother would serve as too painful a reminder of his past life, which as far as he's concerned can never be complete without his wife (note how during the song, the only man he spares is the one with a young family, whom he can barely even look at.) for that reason, i believe that 'Johanna' is about Todd coming to terms with the fact that he's too emotionally broken to be able to reconnect with what's left of his family, and reinforces the idea that revenge and bloodlust are now his only reasons for living. his disconnection to all other human life by the time we follow his story is therefore directly connected to his inability to move past his indignation towards the people who destroyed his life, and not because of how many people he's killed, meaning that the seething passion he still contains is no longer expressed through empathy, but as insurmountable sorrow and anger translated into murderous nihilism (i.e. 'Epiphany'). Sweeney Todd is essentially a story about deep-seated passions expressed through the lens of an irrevocably broken spirit. -- Zaba__
57** Sweeney and his dead wife are the only people whose blood doesn't spurt or gush. It dribbles because, to him, they're already dead. -- @/{{Arzeef}}
58** When Sweeney sings "A Barber and His Wife" at the end, he stops just before the part that says he was naive. That shows how overcrushed with guilt he was.
59* At one point, Mrs Lovett asks Sweeney if he even still remembers his wife's face, which he doesn't answer. However, he still remembers that she and their daughter had yellow hair. The beggar woman spends the entire movie with her hair hidden underneath her bonnet; when she's dead and Sweeney recognizes her, the bonnet has fallen off, showing her hair.
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61[[AC:FridgeHorror]]
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63* Also true for the musical but underlined in the movie, holy Christ, practically everyone is dead! Seriously, Signor Pirelli, Beadle Bamford, Judge Turpin, Mrs. Barker (Todd's now insane wife -- though, not quite as insane as the original musical), Mrs. Lovett, Todd himself, not to mention a whole mess of townsfolk. This is, of course, not particularly a feel-good movie, but once you reach the fridge: the only characters left are Toby (a child, who may or may not go insane and/or be locked forever with people and pies in various states of decay around him), Johanna (who, and Tim Burton particularly underlines this, hasn't known a life outside a heavily guarded room), and Anthony (who, as a sailor may well have seen some gnarly things in the first place, but is then threatened by Turpin and Co., tricks his way into Fogg's Asylum and then leaves its owner to die by being torn to bits, and is now left with the utterly broken woman he loves). Basically, if you lived in this movie, you'd either be dead or wishing you were.
64** Which means that, even with the madness, violence, and slaughter... Todd was right.
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