History YMMV / TheNightGwenStacyDied

18th Mar '17 9:38:16 PM JulianLapostat
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* NeverLiveItDown: Some fans define the character of Norman Osborn by the crime he committed in this story, and less-informed fans define Gwen Stacy by this moment/her characterization during this moment. She's almost always remembered as the GirlNextDoor type characterization that she had [[CharacterizationMarchesOn at the time]], and remembered as the 'one who died'. At least in Gwen's case, ''ComicBook/SpiderGwen'' has helped define her character differently to a new generation of readers.

to:

* NeverLiveItDown: NeverLiveItDown:
**
Some fans define the character of Norman Osborn by the crime he committed in this story, and less-informed fans define Gwen Stacy by this moment/her characterization during this moment. She's almost always remembered as the GirlNextDoor type characterization that she had [[CharacterizationMarchesOn at the time]], and remembered as the 'one who died'. At least in Gwen's case, ''ComicBook/SpiderGwen'' has helped define her character differently to a new generation of readers.readers.
** For a long time, this became one for Peter, cementing his FailureHero status. In ''ComicBook/CivilWar'', Iron Man even refers to this instance as something that could have been avoided had Peter been registered and given training when he was young and inexperienced, while Alex Ross' ''Marvels'' elevates Spider-Man's failure to save Gwen as the ultimate EndOfAnAge.
18th Mar '17 9:35:14 PM JulianLapostat
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* SeinfeldIsUnfunny: This is the one comic that started the entire [[StuffedIntoTheFridge Woman In Refrigerators]] trend, predating the TropeNamer by a good two decades. Although most people agree that it's not an actual proto-example of it, since Gwen's death have deep, meaningful consequences to Spider-Man's character and mythos, even to this day. Conway didn't use the death only for shock value, but used it as the foundation of his entire run, exploring the effects this death has on Peter and his inner circle. The infamous trope is not named "''Dropped From A Bridge''" for a reason. Still, the "death of a significant other" has been done so many times in superhero stories since it first came out that it doesn't have nearly the same impact on modern readers.

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* SeinfeldIsUnfunny: This is the one comic that started the entire [[StuffedIntoTheFridge Woman In Refrigerators]] trend, predating the TropeNamer by a good two decades. Although The motivations for it behind-the-scenes were identical to the general trope, using the girl's death to add to the hero's {{Angst}} and provide him something to feel badly about.
** At that time, where superhero comics were generally seen to lack consequences, a WhamEpisode where the hero outright fails was quite new and unexpected and seen as a daring RealityEnsues. Unlike later examples such as Jason Todd or Sue Dibny, the story was promoted and presented as "just another Spider-Man adventure" and the finale felt like a SurprisinglySuddenDeath to
most people agree readers. A one-time effect that it's not an actual proto-example is impossible to repeat or appreciate in retrospect especially after the dark age of it, since comics.
** Unlike other examples,
Gwen's death have had deep, meaningful consequences to Spider-Man's character and mythos, even to this day. and Conway didn't use and later writers treated the death only for shock value, but used it as the foundation of Spider-Man's ShockingDefeatLegacy, inspiring him to be a better and more heroic character and elevating Gwen to respectfully become TheLostLenore even as MJ became his entire run, exploring the effects this death has on Peter and his inner circle. SecondLove. The infamous trope it inspired is ILetGwenStacyDie and not named "''Dropped From A Bridge''" for a reason. Still, the "death of a significant other" has been done so many times in superhero stories since it first came out that it doesn't have nearly the same impact on modern readers.
18th Mar '17 9:18:37 PM JulianLapostat
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** Many say that the original impetus for the story was a way for writer Gerry Conway to resolve the Gwen Stacy romance since she had become too close to Peter and realistically, as an OfficialCouple, they would eventually marry and settle down which aged up the character considerably. Conway also saw Gwen as uninteresting compared to Mary-Jane and he stated later [[http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=47030 that the only reason people remember Gwen was because of her death]]. Conway was a decent writer and the storyline worked out pretty well, becoming a stunning WhamEpisode that changed the course of the series. However, by replacing Gwen with Mary Jane, the same problem of Peter being part of an OfficialCouple resurfaced only now the excuse of the LoveInterest being boring couldn't fly, since Mary Jane had PopularityPower, so eventually Peter did get married after all, [[http://www.geekcrusade.com/news/gerry-conway-interview/9923 a decision which Conway said]] was a mistake.
** Another complaint is that writers now couldn't kill off any more of Peter's girlfriends because it would make Peter too much of a FailureHero. Conway's idea of killing Gwen was merely a [[ItOnlyWorksOnce one-time solution]] to the problem of whether or not Peter should age.[[note]]However, writers later on killed off at least one would-be love-interest ("The Death of Jean [=DeWolff=]") and tried to sell readers on the idea that Mary Jane had actually been killed in an aircraft accident.[[/note]]So later writers tried to find another way to get out of this problem, leading to controversial retcons like the one in ''ComicBook/TheCloneSaga'' and universally reviled storylines like ''ComicBook/OneMoreDay'', both being extreme ideas to keep Spider-Man from aging and freeing him from being part of an OfficialCouple. In some tortuous way this is supposed to have planted the seeds of Spider-Man's DorkAge problems.

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** Many say that the The original impetus for the story was a way for story, at least according to writer Gerry Conway Conway, was to resolve the Gwen Stacy romance since she had become too close to Peter and realistically, as an OfficialCouple, they would eventually marry and settle down which aged up the character considerably.considerably. There didn't seem a believable way to break up the couple, and free Peter up to romance with Mary-Jane without making either or both of them JerkAss. Conway also saw Gwen as uninteresting compared to Mary-Jane and he stated later [[http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=47030 that the only reason people remember Gwen was because of her death]]. Conway was a decent writer and the storyline worked out pretty well, well in the short-term, becoming a stunning WhamEpisode that changed the course of the series. WhamEpisode. However, by replacing Gwen with Mary Jane, [[DidntThinkThisThrough the same problem of Peter being part part]] of an OfficialCouple resurfaced only now the excuse of the LoveInterest being boring couldn't fly, since Mary Jane had PopularityPower, so eventually Peter did get married after all, [[http://www.geekcrusade.com/news/gerry-conway-interview/9923 a decision which Conway said]] was a mistake.
** Another complaint is that Likewise, by having Peter fail to save his LoveInterest, the writers now set up such a ShockingDefeatLegacy for Peter that they couldn't kill off any more of Peter's girlfriends because add on to it would make Peter without making him too much of a FailureHero. Conway's idea of killing Gwen was merely a [[ItOnlyWorksOnce one-time solution]] to the problem of whether or not Peter should age.[[note]]However, Later writers later on killed off tried to mimic it, with the death of at least one would-be love-interest ("The Death of Jean [=DeWolff=]") whose connection to Peter and circumstances of her actual death added to SurvivorsGuilt for Peter but not the same sense of failure. Likewise, after Peter and MJ got married, they tried to sell readers on the idea spin a story that Mary Jane had actually been killed in an aircraft accident.[[/note]]So later accident, albeit in a NeverFoundTheBody manner that added to Peter's frustration ''and'' his failure, making him such a sad-sack that it made his books cross into DarknessInducedAudienceApathy.
** In general, the ''Gwen Stacy'' story is more or less part of the long-term of issue of whether Spider-Man should grow up past ComicBookTime or remain young and hip and relatable. Later
writers tried in grappling with the problem and also trying to find another way to get out keep Spider-Man single unleashed the true DorkAge of this problem, Spider-Man leading to controversial retcons like the one in ''ComicBook/TheCloneSaga'' and universally reviled storylines like ''ComicBook/OneMoreDay'', both being extreme ideas to keep Spider-Man from aging and freeing him from being part of an OfficialCouple. In some tortuous way this is supposed to have planted the seeds of Spider-Man's DorkAge problems. OfficialCouple.
14th Jan '17 8:56:40 PM KingClark
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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: Not so much the characters as the writers. Gerry Conway has been accused by many as killing her off because he preferred Mary Jane, but the official story is that they wanted a shocking death, and Gwen was the only one who would be shocking enough. So for many fans, it's down to two interpretations: A case of DieForOurShip, or a case of StuffedIntoTheFridge. Gerry Conway himself is [[http://comicbook.com/blog/2012/10/03/gerry-conway-blasts-gwen-stacy-criticizes-stan-lee-in-new-book-on-marvel/pretty unambiguous]]:

to:

* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: Not so much the characters as the writers. Gerry Conway has been accused by many as killing her off because he preferred Mary Jane, but the official story is that they wanted a shocking death, and Gwen was the only one who would be shocking enough. So for many fans, it's down to two interpretations: A a case of DieForOurShip, or a case of StuffedIntoTheFridge. Gerry Conway himself is [[http://comicbook.com/blog/2012/10/03/gerry-conway-blasts-gwen-stacy-criticizes-stan-lee-in-new-book-on-marvel/pretty unambiguous]]:
14th Jan '17 8:55:37 PM KingClark
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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: Not so much the characters as the writers. Gerry Conway has been accused by many as killing her off because he preferred Mary Jane, but the official story is that they wanted a shocking death, and Gwen was the only one who would be shocking enough. So for many fans, it's down to two interpretations: A case of DieForOurShip, or a case of StuffedIntoTheFridge. Gerry Conway himself is [[http://comicbook.com/blog/2012/10/03/gerry-conway-blasts-gwen-stacy-criticizes-stan-lee-in-new-book-on-marvel/pretty unambiguous]]

to:

* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: Not so much the characters as the writers. Gerry Conway has been accused by many as killing her off because he preferred Mary Jane, but the official story is that they wanted a shocking death, and Gwen was the only one who would be shocking enough. So for many fans, it's down to two interpretations: A case of DieForOurShip, or a case of StuffedIntoTheFridge. Gerry Conway himself is [[http://comicbook.com/blog/2012/10/03/gerry-conway-blasts-gwen-stacy-criticizes-stan-lee-in-new-book-on-marvel/pretty unambiguous]]unambiguous]]:



* ItWasHisSled: This trope is clearly UpToEleven considering the [[SpoilerTitle spoiler is in the title itself]]. However, the title itself isn't shown until the end of the issue in which she dies.

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* ItWasHisSled: This trope is clearly UpToEleven considering the [[SpoilerTitle spoiler is in the title itself]]. However, the title itself isn't shown until the end of the issue in which she dies.dies... But good luck trying to read this story without hearing about the title from a trade paperback it's sold in.



* LoveItOrHateIt: The story's reception in its own time. The fans flooded Marvel with letters, some praising the creators for taking such a bold move, others calling them murderers. Nowadays, it's highly regarded.

to:

* LoveItOrHateIt: The story's reception in its own time.[[PopularityPolynomial at the time it was made]]. The fans flooded Marvel with letters, some praising the creators for taking such a bold move, others calling them murderers. Nowadays, it's highly regarded.



* NeverLiveItDown: Some fans define the character of Norman Osborn by the crime he committed in this story, and less-informed fans define Gwen Stacy by this moment/her characterization during this moment. She's almost always remembered as the GirlNextDoor type characterization that she had [[CharacterizationMarchesOn at the time]], and remembered as the 'one who died'.

to:

* NeverLiveItDown: Some fans define the character of Norman Osborn by the crime he committed in this story, and less-informed fans define Gwen Stacy by this moment/her characterization during this moment. She's almost always remembered as the GirlNextDoor type characterization that she had [[CharacterizationMarchesOn at the time]], and remembered as the 'one who died'. At least in Gwen's case, ''ComicBook/SpiderGwen'' has helped define her character differently to a new generation of readers.
10th Oct '16 5:11:21 PM JamesAustin
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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: Not so much the characters as the writers. Gerry Conway has been accused by many as killing her off because he preferred Mary Jane, but the official story is that they wanted a shocking death, and Gwen was the only one who would be shocking enough. So for many fans, it's down to two interpretations: A case of DieForOurShip, or a case of StuffedInTheFridge. Gerry Conway himself is [[http://comicbook.com/blog/2012/10/03/gerry-conway-blasts-gwen-stacy-criticizes-stan-lee-in-new-book-on-marvel/pretty unambiguous]]
--> ''"The amazing thing was that he[Stan Lee] created a character like Mary Jane Watson, who was probably the most interesting female character in comics, and he never used her to the extent that he could have. Instead of Peter Parkerís girlfriend, he made her Peter Parkerís best friendís girlfriend. Which is so wrong, and so stupid, and such a waste. So killing Gwen was a totally logical if not inevitable choice."''

to:

* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: Not so much the characters as the writers. Gerry Conway has been accused by many as killing her off because he preferred Mary Jane, but the official story is that they wanted a shocking death, and Gwen was the only one who would be shocking enough. So for many fans, it's down to two interpretations: A case of DieForOurShip, or a case of StuffedInTheFridge.StuffedIntoTheFridge. Gerry Conway himself is [[http://comicbook.com/blog/2012/10/03/gerry-conway-blasts-gwen-stacy-criticizes-stan-lee-in-new-book-on-marvel/pretty unambiguous]]
--> ''"The amazing thing was that he[Stan he [Stan Lee] created a character like Mary Jane Watson, who was probably the most interesting female character in comics, and he never used her to the extent that he could have. Instead of Peter Parkerís girlfriend, he made her Peter Parkerís best friendís girlfriend. Which is so wrong, and so stupid, and such a waste. So killing Gwen was a totally logical if not inevitable choice."''
5th Apr '16 9:01:21 AM GlitteringFlowers
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** Not to mention, Mary Jane's CharacterDevelopment shows ''brilliantly'' when Peter, in his despair, lashes out at her and tells her to leave him alone. [[YouAreNotAlone She refuses]].

to:

** Not to mention, Mary Jane's CharacterDevelopment shows ''brilliantly'' when Peter, in his despair, lashes out at her and tells her [[GetOut to leave him alone.alone]]. [[YouAreNotAlone She refuses]].
30th Mar '16 11:48:42 AM Anddrix
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* CorrelationImpliesCausation: Two fan theories are based on this:
** ''Post hoc, ergo propter hoc:'' One early theory noted that the Green Goblin, at that point the only villain to [[DeathBySecretIdentity have found out Spider-Man's secret identity, ended up]] KilledOffForReal (or so it seemed). It therefore concluded that this was actually this story's primary purpose: Even with his intermittent amnesia, the situation where he knew Peter was Spider-Man's identity was too dangerous to be allowed to continue. To stop fans from calling for his return, the creators then had him commit a [[MoralEventHorizon crime so heinous]] that they would gladly accept Norman Osborn's death as permanent -- the murder of Spidey's girlfriend. (This theory was soon {{Jossed}} when Harry Osborn became the new Green Goblin).
** ''Cum hoc, ergo propter hoc:'' Gwen Stacy's death augured in the process of Mary Jane becoming Peter Parker's new love interest, and therefore many fans to this day see this as the primary or indeed only reason why Conway killed off Gwen (because clearly it would have been impossible to [[DieForOurShip end the romance between Peter and Gwen any other way]]). No matter that the people involved in the decision (Gerry Conway, Roy Thomas and John Romita) agree that the primary aim was to shake things up with a shocking, important death, and that Gwen was not the first person chosen to be killed off. Conway saying that Mary Jane is a much better character than Gwen is cited as additional evidence, but one should remember that Stan Lee also believed this (as shown not only in various interviews, but also by the fact that when he wrote Gwen he made her more and more like MJ in looks and demeanour during his run with Romita), yet he tends to be believed when he says he was against Gwen dying.



** Some critics however feel that the story as a comic book isn't especially interesting and that aside from the shock event of Spiderman losing a loved one, there's not a lot to the story and as such they feel it's aesthetically inferior to Steve Ditko's Spider-Man stories, especially "If This Be My Destiny", or J. M. [=DeMatteis=]'s "ComicBook/KravensLastHunt". Part of the complaints stem from Gil Kane's pacing problems; the artist tended to get bogged down in details and devote too much space for the beginning, which forced him to compress the ending. The climactic battle between Spider-Man and the Green Goblin in #122 thus has to take place in the space of just one page.



* NeverLiveItDown: Some fans define the character of Norman Osborn by the crime he committed in this story, and less-informed fans define Gwen Stacy by this moment/her characterization during this moment. She's almost always remembered as the GirlNextDoor, PuritySue type characterization that she had [[CharacterizationMarchesOn at the time]], and remembered as the 'one who died'.
* PuritySue: Gwen Stacy's posthumous characterization is partly a result of this story. Few remember her early characterization in Creator/SteveDitko's run, where she was more harsh and cold, very much an UptownGirl who found Peter attractive (with him oblivious to it) because he wasn't drooling after her like the other boys. That is because in the Romita stories, after she graduated from her initial role as [[SuspiciouslySimilarSubstitute heir to Liz Allan]] as the "spoiler" in Peter's romance with Betty Brant to [[OfficialCouple primary love-interest]] she was characterized into a more demure, kinder "ideal woman" with all her interesting elements taken out. Gerry Conway said that he largely wrote her death because he saw no potential for the character:
--> ''"[[http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=47030 Gwen in the comics, and I'll defend this till my dying day, was much more interesting after she was killed than she ever was as a character]]."''

to:

* NeverLiveItDown: Some fans define the character of Norman Osborn by the crime he committed in this story, and less-informed fans define Gwen Stacy by this moment/her characterization during this moment. She's almost always remembered as the GirlNextDoor, PuritySue GirlNextDoor type characterization that she had [[CharacterizationMarchesOn at the time]], and remembered as the 'one who died'.
* PuritySue: Gwen Stacy's posthumous characterization is partly a result of this story. Few remember her early characterization in Creator/SteveDitko's run, where she was more harsh and cold, very much an UptownGirl who found Peter attractive (with him oblivious to it) because he wasn't drooling after her like the other boys. That is because in the Romita stories, after she graduated from her initial role as [[SuspiciouslySimilarSubstitute heir to Liz Allan]] as the "spoiler" in Peter's romance with Betty Brant to [[OfficialCouple primary love-interest]] she was characterized into a more demure, kinder "ideal woman" with all her interesting elements taken out. Gerry Conway said that he largely wrote her death because he saw no potential for the character:
--> ''"[[http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=47030 Gwen in the comics, and I'll defend this till my dying day, was much more interesting after she was killed than she ever was as a character]]."''
died'.
12th Mar '16 7:32:51 AM Anddrix
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* FollowTheLeader: The idea of the hero's ArchEnemy personally killing a loved one of the hero was unprecedented when the story came out. The governing philosophy of superhero comic editors before was that such a line crossed risked making the hero ineffective. After this story, later writers introduced more stories of heroes failing their loved ones. Successors include Creator/FrankMiller's run on ComicBook/{{Daredevil}} which introduced Elektra who died at Bullseye's hands[[note]]which admittedly did not stick but was treated in Miller's pages as if it definitely did stick[[/note]], ComicBook/TheJoker in ''ComicBook/TheKillingJoke, ComicBook/ADeathInTheFamily'' and other adaptations.
12th Mar '16 7:26:23 AM JulianLapostat
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Added DiffLines:

* FollowTheLeader: The idea of the hero's ArchEnemy personally killing a loved one of the hero was unprecedented when the story came out. The governing philosophy of superhero comic editors before was that such a line crossed risked making the hero ineffective. After this story, later writers introduced more stories of heroes failing their loved ones. Successors include Creator/FrankMiller's run on ComicBook/{{Daredevil}} which introduced Elektra who died at Bullseye's hands[[note]]which admittedly did not stick but was treated in Miller's pages as if it definitely did stick[[/note]], ComicBook/TheJoker in ''ComicBook/TheKillingJoke, ComicBook/ADeathInTheFamily'' and other adaptations.
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