History YMMV / TheNightGwenStacyDied

10th Oct '16 5:11:21 PM JamesAustin
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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: Not so much the characters as the writers. Gerry Conway has been accused by many as killing her off because he preferred Mary Jane, but the official story is that they wanted a shocking death, and Gwen was the only one who would be shocking enough. So for many fans, it's down to two interpretations: A case of DieForOurShip, or a case of StuffedInTheFridge. Gerry Conway himself is [[http://comicbook.com/blog/2012/10/03/gerry-conway-blasts-gwen-stacy-criticizes-stan-lee-in-new-book-on-marvel/pretty unambiguous]]
--> ''"The amazing thing was that he[Stan Lee] created a character like Mary Jane Watson, who was probably the most interesting female character in comics, and he never used her to the extent that he could have. Instead of Peter Parkerís girlfriend, he made her Peter Parkerís best friendís girlfriend. Which is so wrong, and so stupid, and such a waste. So killing Gwen was a totally logical if not inevitable choice."''

to:

* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: Not so much the characters as the writers. Gerry Conway has been accused by many as killing her off because he preferred Mary Jane, but the official story is that they wanted a shocking death, and Gwen was the only one who would be shocking enough. So for many fans, it's down to two interpretations: A case of DieForOurShip, or a case of StuffedInTheFridge.StuffedIntoTheFridge. Gerry Conway himself is [[http://comicbook.com/blog/2012/10/03/gerry-conway-blasts-gwen-stacy-criticizes-stan-lee-in-new-book-on-marvel/pretty unambiguous]]
--> ''"The amazing thing was that he[Stan he [Stan Lee] created a character like Mary Jane Watson, who was probably the most interesting female character in comics, and he never used her to the extent that he could have. Instead of Peter Parkerís girlfriend, he made her Peter Parkerís best friendís girlfriend. Which is so wrong, and so stupid, and such a waste. So killing Gwen was a totally logical if not inevitable choice."''
5th Apr '16 9:01:21 AM GlitteringFlowers
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** Not to mention, Mary Jane's CharacterDevelopment shows ''brilliantly'' when Peter, in his despair, lashes out at her and tells her to leave him alone. [[YouAreNotAlone She refuses]].

to:

** Not to mention, Mary Jane's CharacterDevelopment shows ''brilliantly'' when Peter, in his despair, lashes out at her and tells her [[GetOut to leave him alone.alone]]. [[YouAreNotAlone She refuses]].
30th Mar '16 11:48:42 AM Anddrix
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* CorrelationImpliesCausation: Two fan theories are based on this:
** ''Post hoc, ergo propter hoc:'' One early theory noted that the Green Goblin, at that point the only villain to [[DeathBySecretIdentity have found out Spider-Man's secret identity, ended up]] KilledOffForReal (or so it seemed). It therefore concluded that this was actually this story's primary purpose: Even with his intermittent amnesia, the situation where he knew Peter was Spider-Man's identity was too dangerous to be allowed to continue. To stop fans from calling for his return, the creators then had him commit a [[MoralEventHorizon crime so heinous]] that they would gladly accept Norman Osborn's death as permanent -- the murder of Spidey's girlfriend. (This theory was soon {{Jossed}} when Harry Osborn became the new Green Goblin).
** ''Cum hoc, ergo propter hoc:'' Gwen Stacy's death augured in the process of Mary Jane becoming Peter Parker's new love interest, and therefore many fans to this day see this as the primary or indeed only reason why Conway killed off Gwen (because clearly it would have been impossible to [[DieForOurShip end the romance between Peter and Gwen any other way]]). No matter that the people involved in the decision (Gerry Conway, Roy Thomas and John Romita) agree that the primary aim was to shake things up with a shocking, important death, and that Gwen was not the first person chosen to be killed off. Conway saying that Mary Jane is a much better character than Gwen is cited as additional evidence, but one should remember that Stan Lee also believed this (as shown not only in various interviews, but also by the fact that when he wrote Gwen he made her more and more like MJ in looks and demeanour during his run with Romita), yet he tends to be believed when he says he was against Gwen dying.



** Some critics however feel that the story as a comic book isn't especially interesting and that aside from the shock event of Spiderman losing a loved one, there's not a lot to the story and as such they feel it's aesthetically inferior to Steve Ditko's Spider-Man stories, especially "If This Be My Destiny", or J. M. [=DeMatteis=]'s "ComicBook/KravensLastHunt". Part of the complaints stem from Gil Kane's pacing problems; the artist tended to get bogged down in details and devote too much space for the beginning, which forced him to compress the ending. The climactic battle between Spider-Man and the Green Goblin in #122 thus has to take place in the space of just one page.



* NeverLiveItDown: Some fans define the character of Norman Osborn by the crime he committed in this story, and less-informed fans define Gwen Stacy by this moment/her characterization during this moment. She's almost always remembered as the GirlNextDoor, PuritySue type characterization that she had [[CharacterizationMarchesOn at the time]], and remembered as the 'one who died'.
* PuritySue: Gwen Stacy's posthumous characterization is partly a result of this story. Few remember her early characterization in Creator/SteveDitko's run, where she was more harsh and cold, very much an UptownGirl who found Peter attractive (with him oblivious to it) because he wasn't drooling after her like the other boys. That is because in the Romita stories, after she graduated from her initial role as [[SuspiciouslySimilarSubstitute heir to Liz Allan]] as the "spoiler" in Peter's romance with Betty Brant to [[OfficialCouple primary love-interest]] she was characterized into a more demure, kinder "ideal woman" with all her interesting elements taken out. Gerry Conway said that he largely wrote her death because he saw no potential for the character:
--> ''"[[http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=47030 Gwen in the comics, and I'll defend this till my dying day, was much more interesting after she was killed than she ever was as a character]]."''

to:

* NeverLiveItDown: Some fans define the character of Norman Osborn by the crime he committed in this story, and less-informed fans define Gwen Stacy by this moment/her characterization during this moment. She's almost always remembered as the GirlNextDoor, PuritySue GirlNextDoor type characterization that she had [[CharacterizationMarchesOn at the time]], and remembered as the 'one who died'.
* PuritySue: Gwen Stacy's posthumous characterization is partly a result of this story. Few remember her early characterization in Creator/SteveDitko's run, where she was more harsh and cold, very much an UptownGirl who found Peter attractive (with him oblivious to it) because he wasn't drooling after her like the other boys. That is because in the Romita stories, after she graduated from her initial role as [[SuspiciouslySimilarSubstitute heir to Liz Allan]] as the "spoiler" in Peter's romance with Betty Brant to [[OfficialCouple primary love-interest]] she was characterized into a more demure, kinder "ideal woman" with all her interesting elements taken out. Gerry Conway said that he largely wrote her death because he saw no potential for the character:
--> ''"[[http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=47030 Gwen in the comics, and I'll defend this till my dying day, was much more interesting after she was killed than she ever was as a character]]."''
died'.
12th Mar '16 7:32:51 AM Anddrix
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* FollowTheLeader: The idea of the hero's ArchEnemy personally killing a loved one of the hero was unprecedented when the story came out. The governing philosophy of superhero comic editors before was that such a line crossed risked making the hero ineffective. After this story, later writers introduced more stories of heroes failing their loved ones. Successors include Creator/FrankMiller's run on ComicBook/{{Daredevil}} which introduced Elektra who died at Bullseye's hands[[note]]which admittedly did not stick but was treated in Miller's pages as if it definitely did stick[[/note]], ComicBook/TheJoker in ''ComicBook/TheKillingJoke, ComicBook/ADeathInTheFamily'' and other adaptations.
12th Mar '16 7:26:23 AM JulianLapostat
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Added DiffLines:

* FollowTheLeader: The idea of the hero's ArchEnemy personally killing a loved one of the hero was unprecedented when the story came out. The governing philosophy of superhero comic editors before was that such a line crossed risked making the hero ineffective. After this story, later writers introduced more stories of heroes failing their loved ones. Successors include Creator/FrankMiller's run on ComicBook/{{Daredevil}} which introduced Elektra who died at Bullseye's hands[[note]]which admittedly did not stick but was treated in Miller's pages as if it definitely did stick[[/note]], ComicBook/TheJoker in ''ComicBook/TheKillingJoke, ComicBook/ADeathInTheFamily'' and other adaptations.
19th Jan '16 10:40:21 PM McSkywalker
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* FranchiseOriginalSin: In retrospect this story, while a classic and WhamEpisode anticipated many problems that plagued Spiderman in later issues, and didn't exactly provide an ideal solution.

to:

* FranchiseOriginalSin: In retrospect this story, while a classic and WhamEpisode anticipated many problems that plagued Spiderman Spider-Man in later issues, and didn't exactly provide an ideal solution.



** Another complaint is that writers now couldn't kill off any more of Peter's girlfriends because it would make Peter too much of a FailureHero. Conway's idea of killing Gwen was merely a [[ItOnlyWorksOnce one-time solution]] to the problem of whether or not Peter should age.[[note]]However, writers later on killed off at least one would-be love-interest ("The Death of Jean [=DeWolff=]") and tried to sell readers on the idea that Mary Jane had actually been killed in an aircraft accident.[[/note]]So later writers tried to find another way to get out of this problem, leading to controversial retcons like the one in ''ComicBook/TheCloneSaga'' and universally reviled storylines like ''ComicBook/OneMoreDay'', both being extreme ideas to keep Spider-Man from aging and freeing him from being part of an OfficialCouple. In some tortuous way this is supposed to have planted the seeds of Spiderman's DorkAge problems.

to:

** Another complaint is that writers now couldn't kill off any more of Peter's girlfriends because it would make Peter too much of a FailureHero. Conway's idea of killing Gwen was merely a [[ItOnlyWorksOnce one-time solution]] to the problem of whether or not Peter should age.[[note]]However, writers later on killed off at least one would-be love-interest ("The Death of Jean [=DeWolff=]") and tried to sell readers on the idea that Mary Jane had actually been killed in an aircraft accident.[[/note]]So later writers tried to find another way to get out of this problem, leading to controversial retcons like the one in ''ComicBook/TheCloneSaga'' and universally reviled storylines like ''ComicBook/OneMoreDay'', both being extreme ideas to keep Spider-Man from aging and freeing him from being part of an OfficialCouple. In some tortuous way this is supposed to have planted the seeds of Spiderman's Spider-Man's DorkAge problems.
15th Oct '15 5:50:17 AM Menshevik
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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: Not so much the characters as the writers. Gerry Conway has been accused by many as killing her off because he preferred Mary Jane, but the official story is that they wanted a shocking death, and Gwen was the only one who would be shocking enough. So, its down to two interpretations: A case of DieForOurShip, or a case of StuffedInTheFridge. Gerry Conway himself is [[http://comicbook.com/blog/2012/10/03/gerry-conway-blasts-gwen-stacy-criticizes-stan-lee-in-new-book-on-marvel/pretty unambiguous]]

to:

* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: Not so much the characters as the writers. Gerry Conway has been accused by many as killing her off because he preferred Mary Jane, but the official story is that they wanted a shocking death, and Gwen was the only one who would be shocking enough. So, its So for many fans, it's down to two interpretations: A case of DieForOurShip, or a case of StuffedInTheFridge. Gerry Conway himself is [[http://comicbook.com/blog/2012/10/03/gerry-conway-blasts-gwen-stacy-criticizes-stan-lee-in-new-book-on-marvel/pretty unambiguous]]



** ''Cum hoc, ergo propter hoc:'' Gwen Stacy's death augured in the process of Mary Jane becoming Peter Parker's new love interest, and therefore many fans to this day see this as the primary or indeed only reason why Conway killed off Gwen (because clearly it would have been impossible to end the romance between Peter and Gwen any other way). No matter that the people involved in the decision (Gerry Conway, Roy Thomas and John Romita) agree that the primary aim was to shake things up with a shocking, important death, and that Gwen was not the first person chosen to be killed off. Conway saying that Mary Jane is a much better character than Gwen is cited as additional evidence, but one should remember that Stan Lee also believed this (as shown not only in various interviews, but also by the fact that when he wrote Gwen he made her more and more like MJ in looks and demeanour during his run with Romita), yet he tends to be believed when he says he was against Gwen dying.

to:

** ''Cum hoc, ergo propter hoc:'' Gwen Stacy's death augured in the process of Mary Jane becoming Peter Parker's new love interest, and therefore many fans to this day see this as the primary or indeed only reason why Conway killed off Gwen (because clearly it would have been impossible to [[DieForOurShip end the romance between Peter and Gwen any other way).way]]). No matter that the people involved in the decision (Gerry Conway, Roy Thomas and John Romita) agree that the primary aim was to shake things up with a shocking, important death, and that Gwen was not the first person chosen to be killed off. Conway saying that Mary Jane is a much better character than Gwen is cited as additional evidence, but one should remember that Stan Lee also believed this (as shown not only in various interviews, but also by the fact that when he wrote Gwen he made her more and more like MJ in looks and demeanour during his run with Romita), yet he tends to be believed when he says he was against Gwen dying.



** Another complaint is that writers now couldn't kill off any more of Peter's girlfriends because it would make Peter too much of a FailureHero. Conway's idea of killing Gwen was merely a [[ItOnlyWorksOnce one-time solution]] to the problem of whether or not Peter should age. So later writers tried to find another way to get out of this problem, leading to universally reviled storylines and retcons like ''ComicBook/TheCloneSaga'' and ''ComicBook/OneMoreDay'', both being extreme ideas to keep Spiderman from aging and freeing him from being part of an OfficialCouple. In many ways, the seeds of Spiderman's DorkAge problems were planted in this issue.

to:

** Another complaint is that writers now couldn't kill off any more of Peter's girlfriends because it would make Peter too much of a FailureHero. Conway's idea of killing Gwen was merely a [[ItOnlyWorksOnce one-time solution]] to the problem of whether or not Peter should age. So [[note]]However, writers later on killed off at least one would-be love-interest ("The Death of Jean [=DeWolff=]") and tried to sell readers on the idea that Mary Jane had actually been killed in an aircraft accident.[[/note]]So later writers tried to find another way to get out of this problem, leading to universally reviled storylines and controversial retcons like the one in ''ComicBook/TheCloneSaga'' and universally reviled storylines like ''ComicBook/OneMoreDay'', both being extreme ideas to keep Spiderman Spider-Man from aging and freeing him from being part of an OfficialCouple. In many ways, some tortuous way this is supposed to have planted the seeds of Spiderman's DorkAge problems were planted in this issue.problems.



* PuritySue: Gwen Stacy's posthumous characterization is a result of this story. Few remember her early characterization in Creator/SteveDitko's run, where she was more harsh and cold, very much an UptownGirl who found Peter attractive (with him oblivious to it) because he wasn't drooling after her like the other boys. In the Romita stories, she was characterized into a more demure, kinder "ideal woman" with all her interesting elements taken out. Gerry Conway said that he largely wrote her death because he saw no potential for the character:

to:

* PuritySue: Gwen Stacy's posthumous characterization is partly a result of this story. Few remember her early characterization in Creator/SteveDitko's run, where she was more harsh and cold, very much an UptownGirl who found Peter attractive (with him oblivious to it) because he wasn't drooling after her like the other boys. In That is because in the Romita stories, after she graduated from her initial role as [[SuspiciouslySimilarSubstitute heir to Liz Allan]] as the "spoiler" in Peter's romance with Betty Brant to [[OfficialCouple primary love-interest]] she was characterized into a more demure, kinder "ideal woman" with all her interesting elements taken out. Gerry Conway said that he largely wrote her death because he saw no potential for the character:
15th Oct '15 5:25:04 AM Menshevik
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Added DiffLines:

** ''Cum hoc, ergo propter hoc:'' Gwen Stacy's death augured in the process of Mary Jane becoming Peter Parker's new love interest, and therefore many fans to this day see this as the primary or indeed only reason why Conway killed off Gwen (because clearly it would have been impossible to end the romance between Peter and Gwen any other way). No matter that the people involved in the decision (Gerry Conway, Roy Thomas and John Romita) agree that the primary aim was to shake things up with a shocking, important death, and that Gwen was not the first person chosen to be killed off. Conway saying that Mary Jane is a much better character than Gwen is cited as additional evidence, but one should remember that Stan Lee also believed this (as shown not only in various interviews, but also by the fact that when he wrote Gwen he made her more and more like MJ in looks and demeanour during his run with Romita), yet he tends to be believed when he says he was against Gwen dying.
15th Oct '15 5:07:55 AM Menshevik
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Added DiffLines:

* CorrelationImpliesCausation: Two fan theories are based on this:
** ''Post hoc, ergo propter hoc:'' One early theory noted that the Green Goblin, at that point the only villain to [[DeathBySecretIdentity have found out Spider-Man's secret identity, ended up]] KilledOffForReal (or so it seemed). It therefore concluded that this was actually this story's primary purpose: Even with his intermittent amnesia, the situation where he knew Peter was Spider-Man's identity was too dangerous to be allowed to continue. To stop fans from calling for his return, the creators then had him commit a [[MoralEventHorizon crime so heinous]] that they would gladly accept Norman Osborn's death as permanent -- the murder of Spidey's girlfriend. (This theory was soon {{Jossed}} when Harry Osborn became the new Green Goblin).
15th Oct '15 3:07:09 AM Menshevik
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** Some critics however feel that the story as a comic book isn't especially interesting and that aside from the shock event of Spiderman losing a loved one, there's not a lot to the story and as such they feel it's aesthetically inferior to Steve Ditko's Spider-Man stories, especially "If this be my destiny", or even "Kraven's Last Hunt".

to:

** Some critics however feel that the story as a comic book isn't especially interesting and that aside from the shock event of Spiderman losing a loved one, there's not a lot to the story and as such they feel it's aesthetically inferior to Steve Ditko's Spider-Man stories, especially "If this be my destiny", This Be My Destiny", or even "Kraven's Last Hunt".J. M. [=DeMatteis=]'s "ComicBook/KravensLastHunt". Part of the complaints stem from Gil Kane's pacing problems; the artist tended to get bogged down in details and devote too much space for the beginning, which forced him to compress the ending. The climactic battle between Spider-Man and the Green Goblin in #122 thus has to take place in the space of just one page.
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