History YMMV / TheLastJedi

18th Apr '18 10:20:40 PM trixus
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** One of the major points of contention about ''The Last Jedi'' is that a heroic character - Luke Skywalker - is shown to be more morally complex than previously believed. Yet, only a year earlier, ''Film/RogueOne'' also attempted to paint the heroic faction in a more morally gray light, and was more unanimously praised for doing so. However, ''Rogue One'' did so with a team of original characters, and told a story that was deliberately meant to fit right in to ''Film/ANewHope'', showing that the GreyAndGrayMorality was only on a smaller scale and that the factions at large still fit into the series' classic mold of BlackAndWhiteMorality. Meanwhile Luke is known for being one of the most idealistic and good-hearted heroes in the series, to the point that he was able to redeem '''Darth Vader''' by sticking to his values, which results in ''TLJ''[='s=] transformation of Luke into a morally gray character coming across to some to be an insult to his characterization, even more so in that the movie revealed him to be [[spoiler: partially responsible for the Resistance-First Order conflict because he considered killing his own pupil]]. While Luke nearly killed Vader in ''Episode 6'' in a fit of rage - and only after much goading from the Emperor and Vader, with the final straw being the latter threatening to corrupt Leia and turn her to the Dark Side - he managed to stop himself and reaffirm himself as a idealistic character. [[spoiler: In ''TLJ'', Luke's attempting at killing Ben happens in a flashback without context to provide why he would do so other then word of mouth]]. One scene was meant to show Luke having a realistic reaction to a bad situation, then managing to defy Palpatine's plans, while the other exists as a ShockingSwerve.

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** One of the major points of contention about ''The Last Jedi'' is that a heroic character - Luke Skywalker - is shown to be more morally complex than previously believed. Yet, only a year earlier, ''Film/RogueOne'' also attempted to paint the heroic faction in a more morally gray light, and was more unanimously praised for doing so. However, ''Rogue One'' did so with a team of original characters, and told a story that was deliberately meant to fit right in to ''Film/ANewHope'', showing that the GreyAndGrayMorality was only on a smaller scale and that the factions at large still fit into the series' classic mold of BlackAndWhiteMorality. Meanwhile Luke is known for being one of the most idealistic and good-hearted heroes in the series, to the point that he was able to redeem '''Darth Vader''' by sticking to his values, which results in ''TLJ''[='s=] transformation of Luke into a morally gray character coming across to some to be an insult to his characterization, even more so in that the movie revealed him to be [[spoiler: partially responsible for the Resistance-First Order conflict because he considered killing his own pupil]].pupil and nephew]]. While Luke nearly killed Vader in ''Episode 6'' in a fit of rage - and only after much goading from the Emperor and Vader, with the final straw being the latter threatening to corrupt Leia and turn her to the Dark Side - he managed to stop himself and reaffirm himself as a idealistic character. [[spoiler: In ''TLJ'', Luke's attempting at killing Ben happens in a flashback without context to provide why he would do so other then word of mouth]]. One scene was meant to show Luke having a realistic reaction to a bad situation, then managing to defy Palpatine's plans, while the other exists as a ShockingSwerve.



* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: Admiral Holdo is introduced giving a rather bland and weak speech that fails to motivate her troops and then she dismisses Poe's concerns seemingly out of an effort to teach him some humility, which might seem reasonable given they don't know how they're being tracked, but still doesn't exactly make her seem like a character the audience is meant to root for. [[spoiler: The reveal of her plan (and that Leia supported it) doesn't help much, since it reveals that [[PoorCommunicationKills Poe would have gone along with it had she only trusted him and saved the lectures for a less critical moment]], and her refusal to answer Poe's valid observation about the transports just seemed spiteful. Her HeroicSacrifice is visually stunning, but the story behind it feels somewhat hollow as she only had to make it because she didn't try to win Poe's trust]]. [[https://sleemo.tumblr.com/post/172404528646/uomo-accattivante-this-is-such-a-brilliant This post]] raises the interesting idea that this and Poe's UnintentionallySympathetic portrayal were actually intentional on the parts of the filmmakers, and worked a little ''too'' well.

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* UnintentionallyUnsympathetic: UnintentionallyUnsympathetic:
**
Admiral Holdo is introduced giving a rather bland and weak speech that fails to motivate her troops and then she dismisses Poe's concerns seemingly out of an effort to teach him some humility, which might seem reasonable given they don't know how they're being tracked, but still doesn't exactly make her seem like a character the audience is meant to root for. [[spoiler: The reveal of her plan (and that Leia supported it) doesn't help much, since it reveals that [[PoorCommunicationKills Poe would have gone along with it had she only trusted him and saved the lectures for a less critical moment]], and her refusal to answer Poe's valid observation about the transports just seemed spiteful. Her HeroicSacrifice is visually stunning, but the story behind it feels somewhat hollow as she only had to make it because she didn't try to win Poe's trust]]. [[https://sleemo.tumblr.com/post/172404528646/uomo-accattivante-this-is-such-a-brilliant This post]] raises the interesting idea that this and Poe's UnintentionallySympathetic portrayal were actually intentional on the parts of the filmmakers, and worked a little ''too'' well.well.
** While it is written as a failure and he refrained himself [[spoiler: Luke standing atop his own nephew lightsaber on with the intent of killing him over visions]] is something for a KnightTemplar type of character and his attempt to make amend for it is [[spoiler: isolate himself and die because he wasn't able to apologize and explain why he thought killing a relative in his sleep was a good idea]]. This is not morally gray as much as a temporary FaceHeelTurn.
18th Apr '18 7:31:16 PM Sanokal
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** Even [[spoiler:Kylo Ren killing Snoke so early]] can actually be traced back to his ''Legends'' counterpart, Jacen Solo[=/=]Darth Caedus to a degree; [[spoiler:Lumiya, the Sith Lady who led Jacen down the path of the dark side, was killed (admittedly not by Jacen, but by Luke) well before the climax of his story]].
18th Apr '18 1:54:43 AM Shadao
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* CriticalDissonance: The film received near-unanimous praise from critics with a Website/RottenTomatoes score of 91%, but fan reception has been very mixed. Most agree that the film is well-made, but take contention with a number of plot points as well as the handling of certain characters, particularly Luke and Snoke. While the film's IMDB user rating is at 7.5 and the movie has received a [=CinemaScore=] of A, its Rotten Tomatoes audience has consistently hovered around the halfway mark, eventually dipping below any of the ''prequels' audience rating''.[[note]]Both Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB have no measures in place to make sure people can't rate multiple times over multiple accounts, nor are there any to verify whether users actually saw the movie in the first place.[[/note]] The RT audience rating has been particularly controversial; some believe it to be a wave of initial backlash to the film defying expectations just like ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'' when first released,[[note]]Creator/JeremyJahns, for instance, refused to rate the movie in his review because he needed a second viewing to sort out his highly mixed feelings towards it,[[/note]] [[http://deadline.com/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-metacritic-imdb-users-cinemascore-posttrak-1202228837/ others have]] [[https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/17/manipulated-audience-score-last-jedi/ pointed to]] [[https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=541314996249289&id=464301390617317 rallies and bot spamming]] to sabotage the movie's user score due to FandomRivalry or [[WhatDoYouMeanItsNotPolitical political]] motivations,[[note]]although it's unclear whether such rallies had much of an effect at all, and/or whether trolls are simply taking credit for the movie's low rating,[[/note]] some believe that the score is more than a knee-jerk reaction and that ''The Last Jedi'' will be forever marked as one of the most polarizing ''Star Wars'' films, more akin to the prequels than ''ESB''[[note]]Despite ESB being hugely controversial itself on release and only coming to be recognised as the series' high point (thus far) after RotJ came out and clarified Empire's ambiguous DownerEnding[[/note]], and general consensus is that [[TakeAThirdOption all three options]] are true to some extent.[[note]]i.e. that the film is genuinely divisive but its Website/RottenTomatoes audience score represents an exaggeration of this mindset thanks to trolls.[[/note]] For what it's worth, [[http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/17/star-wars-the-last-jedi-audience-score-disney/ Disney's]] and [[https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/943930384852574208 Rian Johnson's]] official stances cite NoSuchThingAsBadPublicity and consider the debate to be healthy for the franchise, and [[https://www.thewrap.com/rotten-tomatoes-verifies-55-low-audience-score-for-star-wars-the-last-jedi/ Rotten Tomatoes' exec Dana Benson claims that]] the score is at least genuine.

to:

* CriticalDissonance: The film received near-unanimous praise from critics with a Website/RottenTomatoes score of 91%, but fan reception has been very mixed. Most agree that the film is well-made, but take contention with a number of plot points as well as the handling of certain characters, particularly Luke and Snoke. While the film's IMDB user rating is at 7.5 and the movie has received a [=CinemaScore=] of A, its Rotten Tomatoes audience has consistently hovered around the halfway mark, eventually dipping below any of the ''prequels' audience rating''.[[note]]Both Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB have no measures in place to make sure people can't rate multiple times over multiple accounts, nor are there any to verify whether users actually saw the movie in the first place.[[/note]] The RT audience rating has been particularly controversial; some believe it to be a wave of initial backlash to the film defying expectations just like ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'' when first released,[[note]]Creator/JeremyJahns, for instance, refused to rate the movie in his review because he needed a second viewing to sort out his highly mixed feelings towards it,[[/note]] [[http://deadline.com/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-metacritic-imdb-users-cinemascore-posttrak-1202228837/ others have]] [[https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/17/manipulated-audience-score-last-jedi/ pointed to]] [[https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=541314996249289&id=464301390617317 rallies and bot spamming]] to sabotage the movie's user score due to FandomRivalry or [[WhatDoYouMeanItsNotPolitical political]] motivations,[[note]]although it's unclear whether such rallies had much of an effect at all, and/or whether trolls are simply taking credit for the movie's low rating,[[/note]] some believe that the score is more than a knee-jerk reaction and that ''The Last Jedi'' will be forever marked as one of the most polarizing ''Star Wars'' films, more akin to the prequels than ''ESB''[[note]]Despite ESB being hugely controversial itself on release ''TESB''[[note]]''The Empire Strikes Back'' was said to have a mixed reception from audience and only coming to be recognised got recognized as the series' high point (thus far) of the series after RotJ ''Return of the Jedi'' came out and clarified Empire's ambiguous DownerEnding[[/note]], out[[/note]], and general consensus is that [[TakeAThirdOption all three options]] are true to some extent.[[note]]i.e. that the film is genuinely divisive but its Website/RottenTomatoes audience score represents an exaggeration of this mindset thanks to trolls.[[/note]] For what it's worth, [[http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/17/star-wars-the-last-jedi-audience-score-disney/ Disney's]] and [[https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/943930384852574208 Rian Johnson's]] official stances cite NoSuchThingAsBadPublicity and consider the debate to be healthy for the franchise, and [[https://www.thewrap.com/rotten-tomatoes-verifies-55-low-audience-score-for-star-wars-the-last-jedi/ Rotten Tomatoes' exec Dana Benson claims that]] the score is at least genuine.
17th Apr '18 11:09:20 AM MrDeath
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** The [[spoiler: failure and death of Luke Skywalker]] becomes much, ''MUCH'' worse now that [[http://comicbook.com/starwars/2018/04/10/star-wars-mark-hamill-episode-ix-carrie-fisher/ Mark Hamill claims not to care about Star Wars anymore]].
17th Apr '18 6:13:27 AM prgiordano
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* CriticalDissonance: The film received near-unanimous praise from critics with a Website/RottenTomatoes score of 90%, but fan reception has been very mixed. Most agree that the film is well-made, but take contention with a number of plot points as well as the handling of certain characters, particularly Luke and Snoke. While the film's IMDB user rating is at 7.5 and the movie has received a [=CinemaScore=] of A, its Rotten Tomatoes audience has consistently hovered around the halfway mark, eventually dipping below any of the ''prequels' audience rating''.[[note]]Both Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB have no measures in place to make sure people can't rate multiple times over multiple accounts, nor are there any to verify whether users actually saw the movie in the first place.[[/note]] The RT audience rating has been particularly controversial; some believe it to be a wave of initial backlash to the film defying expectations just like ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'' when first released,[[note]]Creator/JeremyJahns, for instance, refused to rate the movie in his review because he needed a second viewing to sort out his highly mixed feelings towards it,[[/note]] [[http://deadline.com/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-metacritic-imdb-users-cinemascore-posttrak-1202228837/ others have]] [[https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/17/manipulated-audience-score-last-jedi/ pointed to]] [[https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=541314996249289&id=464301390617317 rallies and bot spamming]] to sabotage the movie's user score due to FandomRivalry or [[WhatDoYouMeanItsNotPolitical political]] motivations,[[note]]although it's unclear whether such rallies had much of an effect at all, and/or whether trolls are simply taking credit for the movie's low rating,[[/note]] some believe that the score is more than a knee-jerk reaction and that ''The Last Jedi'' will be forever marked as one of the most polarizing ''Star Wars'' films, more akin to the prequels than ''ESB''[[note]]Despite ESB being hugely controversial itself on release and only coming to be recognised as the series' high point (thus far) after RotJ came out and clarified Empire's ambiguous DownerEnding[[/note]], and general consensus is that [[TakeAThirdOption all three options]] are true to some extent.[[note]]i.e. that the film is genuinely divisive but its Website/RottenTomatoes audience score represents an exaggeration of this mindset thanks to trolls.[[/note]] For what it's worth, [[http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/17/star-wars-the-last-jedi-audience-score-disney/ Disney's]] and [[https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/943930384852574208 Rian Johnson's]] official stances cite NoSuchThingAsBadPublicity and consider the debate to be healthy for the franchise, and [[https://www.thewrap.com/rotten-tomatoes-verifies-55-low-audience-score-for-star-wars-the-last-jedi/ Rotten Tomatoes' exec Dana Benson claims that]] the score is at least genuine.

to:

* CriticalDissonance: The film received near-unanimous praise from critics with a Website/RottenTomatoes score of 90%, 91%, but fan reception has been very mixed. Most agree that the film is well-made, but take contention with a number of plot points as well as the handling of certain characters, particularly Luke and Snoke. While the film's IMDB user rating is at 7.5 and the movie has received a [=CinemaScore=] of A, its Rotten Tomatoes audience has consistently hovered around the halfway mark, eventually dipping below any of the ''prequels' audience rating''.[[note]]Both Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB have no measures in place to make sure people can't rate multiple times over multiple accounts, nor are there any to verify whether users actually saw the movie in the first place.[[/note]] The RT audience rating has been particularly controversial; some believe it to be a wave of initial backlash to the film defying expectations just like ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'' when first released,[[note]]Creator/JeremyJahns, for instance, refused to rate the movie in his review because he needed a second viewing to sort out his highly mixed feelings towards it,[[/note]] [[http://deadline.com/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-metacritic-imdb-users-cinemascore-posttrak-1202228837/ others have]] [[https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/17/manipulated-audience-score-last-jedi/ pointed to]] [[https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=541314996249289&id=464301390617317 rallies and bot spamming]] to sabotage the movie's user score due to FandomRivalry or [[WhatDoYouMeanItsNotPolitical political]] motivations,[[note]]although it's unclear whether such rallies had much of an effect at all, and/or whether trolls are simply taking credit for the movie's low rating,[[/note]] some believe that the score is more than a knee-jerk reaction and that ''The Last Jedi'' will be forever marked as one of the most polarizing ''Star Wars'' films, more akin to the prequels than ''ESB''[[note]]Despite ESB being hugely controversial itself on release and only coming to be recognised as the series' high point (thus far) after RotJ came out and clarified Empire's ambiguous DownerEnding[[/note]], and general consensus is that [[TakeAThirdOption all three options]] are true to some extent.[[note]]i.e. that the film is genuinely divisive but its Website/RottenTomatoes audience score represents an exaggeration of this mindset thanks to trolls.[[/note]] For what it's worth, [[http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/17/star-wars-the-last-jedi-audience-score-disney/ Disney's]] and [[https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/943930384852574208 Rian Johnson's]] official stances cite NoSuchThingAsBadPublicity and consider the debate to be healthy for the franchise, and [[https://www.thewrap.com/rotten-tomatoes-verifies-55-low-audience-score-for-star-wars-the-last-jedi/ Rotten Tomatoes' exec Dana Benson claims that]] the score is at least genuine.
16th Apr '18 3:08:50 AM Chuckles1188
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* CriticalDissonance: The film received near-unanimous praise from critics with a Website/RottenTomatoes score of 90%, but fan reception has been very mixed. Most agree that the film is well-made, but take contention with a number of plot points as well as the handling of certain characters, particularly Luke and Snoke. While the film's IMDB user rating is at 7.5 and the movie has received a [=CinemaScore=] of A, its Rotten Tomatoes audience has consistently hovered around the halfway mark, eventually dipping below any of the ''prequels' audience rating''.[[note]]Both Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB have no measures in place to make sure people can't rate multiple times over multiple accounts, nor are there any to verify whether users actually saw the movie in the first place.[[/note]] The RT audience rating has been particularly controversial; some believe it to be a wave of initial backlash to the film defying expectations just like ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'' when first released,[[note]]Creator/JeremyJahns, for instance, refused to rate the movie in his review because he needed a second viewing to sort out his highly mixed feelings towards it,[[/note]] [[http://deadline.com/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-metacritic-imdb-users-cinemascore-posttrak-1202228837/ others have]] [[https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/17/manipulated-audience-score-last-jedi/ pointed to]] [[https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=541314996249289&id=464301390617317 rallies and bot spamming]] to sabotage the movie's user score due to FandomRivalry or [[WhatDoYouMeanItsNotPolitical political]] motivations,[[note]]although it's unclear whether such rallies had much of an effect at all, and/or whether trolls are simply taking credit for the movie's low rating,[[/note]] some believe that the score is more than a knee-jerk reaction and that ''The Last Jedi'' will be forever marked as one of the most polarizing ''Star Wars'' films, more akin to the prequels than ''ESB'', and general consensus is that [[TakeAThirdOption all three options]] are true to some extent.[[note]]i.e. that the film is genuinely divisive but its Website/RottenTomatoes audience score represents an exaggeration of this mindset thanks to trolls.[[/note]] For what it's worth, [[http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/17/star-wars-the-last-jedi-audience-score-disney/ Disney's]] and [[https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/943930384852574208 Rian Johnson's]] official stances cite NoSuchThingAsBadPublicity and consider the debate to be healthy for the franchise, and [[https://www.thewrap.com/rotten-tomatoes-verifies-55-low-audience-score-for-star-wars-the-last-jedi/ Rotten Tomatoes' exec Dana Benson claims that]] the score is at least genuine.

to:

* CriticalDissonance: The film received near-unanimous praise from critics with a Website/RottenTomatoes score of 90%, but fan reception has been very mixed. Most agree that the film is well-made, but take contention with a number of plot points as well as the handling of certain characters, particularly Luke and Snoke. While the film's IMDB user rating is at 7.5 and the movie has received a [=CinemaScore=] of A, its Rotten Tomatoes audience has consistently hovered around the halfway mark, eventually dipping below any of the ''prequels' audience rating''.[[note]]Both Rotten Tomatoes and IMDB have no measures in place to make sure people can't rate multiple times over multiple accounts, nor are there any to verify whether users actually saw the movie in the first place.[[/note]] The RT audience rating has been particularly controversial; some believe it to be a wave of initial backlash to the film defying expectations just like ''Film/TheEmpireStrikesBack'' when first released,[[note]]Creator/JeremyJahns, for instance, refused to rate the movie in his review because he needed a second viewing to sort out his highly mixed feelings towards it,[[/note]] [[http://deadline.com/2017/12/star-wars-the-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-metacritic-imdb-users-cinemascore-posttrak-1202228837/ others have]] [[https://www.bleedingcool.com/2017/12/17/manipulated-audience-score-last-jedi/ pointed to]] [[https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=541314996249289&id=464301390617317 rallies and bot spamming]] to sabotage the movie's user score due to FandomRivalry or [[WhatDoYouMeanItsNotPolitical political]] motivations,[[note]]although it's unclear whether such rallies had much of an effect at all, and/or whether trolls are simply taking credit for the movie's low rating,[[/note]] some believe that the score is more than a knee-jerk reaction and that ''The Last Jedi'' will be forever marked as one of the most polarizing ''Star Wars'' films, more akin to the prequels than ''ESB'', ''ESB''[[note]]Despite ESB being hugely controversial itself on release and only coming to be recognised as the series' high point (thus far) after RotJ came out and clarified Empire's ambiguous DownerEnding[[/note]], and general consensus is that [[TakeAThirdOption all three options]] are true to some extent.[[note]]i.e. that the film is genuinely divisive but its Website/RottenTomatoes audience score represents an exaggeration of this mindset thanks to trolls.[[/note]] For what it's worth, [[http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/17/star-wars-the-last-jedi-audience-score-disney/ Disney's]] and [[https://twitter.com/rianjohnson/status/943930384852574208 Rian Johnson's]] official stances cite NoSuchThingAsBadPublicity and consider the debate to be healthy for the franchise, and [[https://www.thewrap.com/rotten-tomatoes-verifies-55-low-audience-score-for-star-wars-the-last-jedi/ Rotten Tomatoes' exec Dana Benson claims that]] the score is at least genuine.
15th Apr '18 4:03:44 PM Pren
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Added DiffLines:

* BellisariosMaxim: Rian Johnson was well aware that [[spoiler:Luke's metal hand should not have disappeared with the rest of him]], but it was clear this would have ruined the emotional impact of the scene.
14th Apr '18 9:31:27 PM Fiendish
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Added DiffLines:

*** Related to that: Leia's ParentalSubstitute relationship with Poe gets some development as she tries to mold him into a better leader. However, the fact that he was captured, tortured and mind-probed by Leia's ''actual'' son at the beginning of ''The Force Awakens'' is never referenced, even though it might have provided the perfect psychological backdrop for Poe's defiance of Leia's leadership.
14th Apr '18 8:59:14 PM Fiendish
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Added DiffLines:

** Poe and Rose barely cross paths in the movie, despite the fact that [[spoiler:Rose's sister died following Poe's orders, which he gave in defiance of Leia telling him to back off]]. Coming face-to-face with someone suffering as a direct result of his disastrous orders would've driven home the folly of Poe's attitude much more clearly than the "lesson" he was taught by Holdo, which was beset by ConflictBall / InformedWrongness issues.
14th Apr '18 7:19:04 PM nombretomado
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%% Love It Or Hate It is an InUniverseExamplesOnly trope. Stop adding it as a real-life example of the film's reception.

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%% Love It Or Hate It is an InUniverseExamplesOnly Administrivia/InUniverseExamplesOnly trope. Stop adding it as a real-life example of the film's reception.
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