History YMMV / TheKillingJoke

14th Apr '16 9:45:30 PM Anicomicgeek
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** Creator/BruceTimm has even said that despite the book still getting a mature readers tag in reprints and the 20th anniversary special edition, times have changed and [[WesternAnimation/BatmanTheKillingJoke the animated adaptation]] could've possibly gotten a PG-13 rating despite being before it was rated R.

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** Creator/BruceTimm has even said that despite the book still getting a mature readers tag in reprints and the 20th anniversary special edition, times have changed and [[WesternAnimation/BatmanTheKillingJoke the animated adaptation]] could've possibly gotten a PG-13 rating despite being before it was rated R.
14th Apr '16 9:41:47 PM Anicomicgeek
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** Creator/BruceTimm has even said that despite the book still getting a mature readers tag in reprints and the 20th anniversary special edition, times have changed and [[WesternAnimation/BatmanTheKillingJoke the animated adaptation]] could possibly just get a PG-13 rating despite being given the go-ahead to make it R.

to:

** Creator/BruceTimm has even said that despite the book still getting a mature readers tag in reprints and the 20th anniversary special edition, times have changed and [[WesternAnimation/BatmanTheKillingJoke the animated adaptation]] could could've possibly just get gotten a PG-13 rating despite being given the go-ahead to make before it was rated R.
5th Apr '16 12:57:47 PM Anicomicgeek
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Added DiffLines:

** Creator/BruceTimm has even said that despite the book still getting a mature readers tag in reprints and the 20th anniversary special edition, times have changed and [[WesternAnimation/BatmanTheKillingJoke the animated adaptation]] could possibly just get a PG-13 rating despite being given the go-ahead to make it R.
12th Mar '16 7:19:08 AM JulianLapostat
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** ''The Killing Joke'' was the first time Joker attacked someone close to Batman's personal life. Several months after the release of this comic, there was the famous ''A Death in the Family'' story that killed Jason Todd, and much later, ''No Man's Land'' where Sarah Essen Gordon was killed by the Joker. This trickled into adaptations, where in Creator/TimBurton's ''Film/{{Batman}}'' [[spoiler:Joker is made into the thug who killed Bruce's parents]], and killing Bruce's LoveInterest in Film/TheDarkKnight and VideoGame/BatmanArkhamKnight, while his torture of Batman's ally into insanity became an element of ''WesternAnimation/BatmanBeyondReturnOfTheJoker''.

to:

** ''The Killing Joke'' was the first time Joker attacked someone close to Batman's personal life. Several months after the release of this comic, there was the famous ''A Death in the Family'' story that killed Jason Todd, and much later, ''No Man's Land'' where Sarah Essen Gordon was killed by the Joker. This trickled into adaptations, where in Creator/TimBurton's ''Film/{{Batman}}'' [[spoiler:Joker is made into the thug who killed Bruce's parents]], and killing Bruce's LoveInterest in Film/TheDarkKnight ''Film/TheDarkKnight'' and VideoGame/BatmanArkhamKnight, ''VideoGame/BatmanArkhamCity'', while his torture of Batman's ally into insanity became an element of ''WesternAnimation/BatmanBeyondReturnOfTheJoker''.
12th Mar '16 7:17:43 AM JulianLapostat
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** ''The Killing Joke'' was the first time Joker attacked someone close to Batman's personal life. Several months after the release of this comic, there was the famous ''A Death in the Family'' story that killed Jason Todd, and much later, ''No Man's Land'' where Sarah Essen Gordon was killed by the Joker. This trickled into adaptations, where in Creator/TimBurton's ''Film/{{Batman}}'' [[spoiler:Joker is made into the thug who killed Bruce's parents]], and killing Bruce's LoveInterest in Film/TheDarkKnight and VideoGame/BatmanArkhamKnight.

to:

** ''The Killing Joke'' was the first time Joker attacked someone close to Batman's personal life. Several months after the release of this comic, there was the famous ''A Death in the Family'' story that killed Jason Todd, and much later, ''No Man's Land'' where Sarah Essen Gordon was killed by the Joker. This trickled into adaptations, where in Creator/TimBurton's ''Film/{{Batman}}'' [[spoiler:Joker is made into the thug who killed Bruce's parents]], and killing Bruce's LoveInterest in Film/TheDarkKnight and VideoGame/BatmanArkhamKnight.VideoGame/BatmanArkhamKnight, while his torture of Batman's ally into insanity became an element of ''WesternAnimation/BatmanBeyondReturnOfTheJoker''.
12th Mar '16 7:16:55 AM JulianLapostat
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** ''The Killing Joke'' was the first time Joker attacked someone close to Batman's personal life. Several months after the release of this comic, there was the famous ''A Death in the Family'' story that killed Jason Todd, and much later, ''No Man's Land'' where Sarah Essen Gordon was killed by the Joker.

to:

** ''The Killing Joke'' was the first time Joker attacked someone close to Batman's personal life. Several months after the release of this comic, there was the famous ''A Death in the Family'' story that killed Jason Todd, and much later, ''No Man's Land'' where Sarah Essen Gordon was killed by the Joker. This trickled into adaptations, where in Creator/TimBurton's ''Film/{{Batman}}'' [[spoiler:Joker is made into the thug who killed Bruce's parents]], and killing Bruce's LoveInterest in Film/TheDarkKnight and VideoGame/BatmanArkhamKnight.
12th Mar '16 7:13:59 AM Anddrix
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* EpilepticTrees: During a 2013 podcast with Creator/KevinSmith, Creator/GrantMorrison argued that the end of ''The Killing Joke'' in fact has Batman killing Joker, carefully interpreting the panels as evidence. He admitted that it was done in a way that was left to viewers. A very dark interpretation of the story but not unexpected from Moore. Artist Brian Bolland disagrees though, the comic's inclusion in the mainline DC canon clearly indicates it didn't happen, and the script for the comic says Batman and Joker just collapse helplessly in laughter. Though considering Moore's own ideas expressed in ''ComicBook/WhateverHappenedToTheManOfTomorrow'', the fact that it's canon or not would have little impact on his own vision for the story, which as of now is not known.
** Others [[http://acephalous.typepad.com/acephalous/2013/08/some-interpretations-are-fascinatingly-wrong-others-just-plain.html have argued]] that Batman killing Joker goes [[ComicallyMissingThePoint against the point of the story]] and Moore's stated regrets about the story. Moore wrote the story hoping to provide a psychologically compelling and grounded perspective on Joker's origins and his conflict with the Batman but [[DidntThinkThisThrough realized later]] that [[IndecisiveDeconstruction the fact that Batman and Joker are comic-book characters]] in the sense of being long-running serial characters, there can never really be a resolution to their conflict. The Joker will never be able to be cured because doing so would go against the function of his character and Batman won't kill because he wouldn't be a hero. The story and the title is a meta-commentary on the endless Batman-Joker rivalry and about the fact that there's no end to it, which both Batman and Joker realize at the end and laugh about. Alan Moore confirmed the satirical interpretation himself in [[https://www.goodreads.com/author/3961.Alan_Moore/questions a recent online question-and-answer, and states that he didn't intend Batman killing Joker]] at all:

to:

* EpilepticTrees: During a 2013 podcast with Creator/KevinSmith, Creator/GrantMorrison argued that the end of ''The Killing Joke'' in fact has Batman killing Joker, carefully interpreting the panels as evidence. He admitted that it was done in a way that was left to viewers. A very dark interpretation of the story but not unexpected from Moore. Artist Brian Bolland disagrees though, the comic's inclusion in the mainline DC canon clearly indicates it didn't happen, and the script for the comic says Batman and Joker just collapse helplessly in laughter. Though considering Moore's own ideas expressed in ''ComicBook/WhateverHappenedToTheManOfTomorrow'', the fact that it's canon or not would have little impact on his own vision for the story, which as of now is not known.
**
known.\\\
Others [[http://acephalous.typepad.com/acephalous/2013/08/some-interpretations-are-fascinatingly-wrong-others-just-plain.html have argued]] that Batman killing Joker goes [[ComicallyMissingThePoint against the point of the story]] and Moore's stated regrets about the story. Moore wrote the story hoping to provide a psychologically compelling and grounded perspective on Joker's origins and his conflict with the Batman but [[DidntThinkThisThrough realized later]] that [[IndecisiveDeconstruction the fact that Batman and Joker are comic-book characters]] in the sense of being long-running serial characters, there can never really be a resolution to their conflict. The Joker will never be able to be cured because doing so would go against the function of his character and Batman won't kill because he wouldn't be a hero. The story and the title is a meta-commentary on the endless Batman-Joker rivalry and about the fact that there's no end to it, which both Batman and Joker realize at the end and laugh about. Alan Moore confirmed the satirical interpretation himself in [[https://www.goodreads.com/author/3961.Alan_Moore/questions a recent online question-and-answer, and states that he didn't intend Batman killing Joker]] at all:



* MagnumOpusDissonance: See HypeAversion above; Moore is reputed to consider this the ''weakest'' of his DC works, as he believes that the aesthetics of ''Watchmen'' were a poor fit for a "mere" Batman story. He later explained that ultimately Joker and Batman were intended to function as comic-book larger-than-life figures and are entertaining as such, but attempts to introduce realism would end up making the story nasty but without being as fun as a superhero comic. This later informed his attempts at {{Reconstruction}} of superhero comics in ''ComicBook/{{Supreme}}'' and AmericasBestComics label.

to:

* MagnumOpusDissonance: See HypeAversion above; Moore is reputed to consider this the ''weakest'' of his DC works, as he believes that the aesthetics of ''Watchmen'' were a poor fit for a "mere" Batman story. He later explained that ultimately Joker and Batman were intended to function as comic-book larger-than-life figures and are entertaining as such, but attempts to introduce realism would end up making the story nasty but without being as fun as a superhero comic. This later informed his attempts at {{Reconstruction}} of superhero comics in ''ComicBook/{{Supreme}}'' and AmericasBestComics label.



** There are those fans who, even if they think he is still a sociopath, [[VillainHasAPoint believe the Joker when he says that one bad day is all it took to drive him over the edge (and by extension, that one bad day could drive ''anybody'' over the edge)]]. Not only is this arguably disproved by the end of the story, since he fails to break Gordon, [[note]]though possibly because Gordon's day was several measures less bad than the Joker's [[MultipleChoicePast might have been]] - we don't know how he would have reacted had Barbara been killed outright[[/note]] it's suggested by Batman that his failure and behaviour mean that the Joker was not even right about himself, and by extension needed help ''long'' before his TraumaCongaLine. That's not even getting into his MultipleChoicePast claims.

to:

** There are those fans who, even if they think he is still a sociopath, [[VillainHasAPoint believe the Joker when he says that one bad day is all it took to drive him over the edge (and by extension, that one bad day could drive ''anybody'' over the edge)]].edge). Not only is this arguably disproved by the end of the story, since he fails to break Gordon, [[note]]though possibly because Gordon's day was several measures less bad than the Joker's [[MultipleChoicePast might have been]] - we don't know how he would have reacted had Barbara been killed outright[[/note]] it's suggested by Batman that his failure and behaviour mean that the Joker was not even right about himself, and by extension needed help ''long'' before his TraumaCongaLine. That's not even getting into his MultipleChoicePast claims.
12th Mar '16 7:06:46 AM JulianLapostat
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* MisaimedFandom: There are those fans who, even if they think he is still a sociopath, [[VillainHasAPoint believe the Joker when he says that one bad day is all it took to drive him over the edge (and by extension, that one bad day could drive ''anybody'' over the edge)]]. Not only is this arguably disproved by the end of the story, since he fails to break Gordon, [[note]]though possibly because Gordon's day was several measures less bad than the Joker's [[MultipleChoicePast might have been]] - we don't know how he would have reacted had Barbara been killed outright[[/note]] it's suggested by Batman that his failure and behaviour mean that the Joker was not even right about himself, and by extension needed help ''long'' before his TraumaCongaLine. That's not even getting into his MultipleChoicePast claims.

to:

* MisaimedFandom: MisaimedFandom:
**
There are those fans who, even if they think he is still a sociopath, [[VillainHasAPoint believe the Joker when he says that one bad day is all it took to drive him over the edge (and by extension, that one bad day could drive ''anybody'' over the edge)]]. Not only is this arguably disproved by the end of the story, since he fails to break Gordon, [[note]]though possibly because Gordon's day was several measures less bad than the Joker's [[MultipleChoicePast might have been]] - we don't know how he would have reacted had Barbara been killed outright[[/note]] it's suggested by Batman that his failure and behaviour mean that the Joker was not even right about himself, and by extension needed help ''long'' before his TraumaCongaLine. That's not even getting into his MultipleChoicePast claims.



** The larger point that Moore regrets is that his origin was intended to deepen and complicate the rivalry between Batman and the Joker, and humanize the Joker by giving him a sympathetic backstory. Instead all people take from the comic is the Joker can be even more violent and sociopathic while using MultipleChoicePast as an excuse for readers to accept and tolerate him as an entertaining villain, and this paved the way for later events of Joker committing acts of greater gratuitous violence with the usual StrawNihilist spiel.



* SeinfeldIsUnfunny: Was pretty extreme when it first came out, even after ''Comicbook/{{Watchmen}}'' and ''Comicbook/TheDarkKnightReturns'' intensified the comic book medium. Nowadays, the whole attack-a-woman-to-spite-a-man plotline has been done to death, with stories like ''Comicbook/IdentityCrisis'' and ''Videogame/InjusticeGodsAmongUs'' milking it dry.

to:

* SeinfeldIsUnfunny: SeinfeldIsUnfunny:
**
Was pretty extreme when it first came out, even after ''Comicbook/{{Watchmen}}'' and ''Comicbook/TheDarkKnightReturns'' intensified the comic book medium. Nowadays, the whole attack-a-woman-to-spite-a-man plotline has been done to death, with stories like ''Comicbook/IdentityCrisis'' and ''Videogame/InjusticeGodsAmongUs'' milking it dry.dry.
** ''The Killing Joke'' was the first time Joker attacked someone close to Batman's personal life. Several months after the release of this comic, there was the famous ''A Death in the Family'' story that killed Jason Todd, and much later, ''No Man's Land'' where Sarah Essen Gordon was killed by the Joker.
12th Mar '16 5:41:04 AM DoctorSleep
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Added DiffLines:

** There's been talk of [[http://comicbook.com/2016/03/08/has-the-killing-joke-been-removed-from-dc-comics-continuity-/ retconning the whole story out of existence]], which upset even more fans. Some thought it was just pandering to the same people who hated the ''Batgirl'' cover, others felt it was one more slap in the face to anyone who liked Barbara as Oracle, while others still just wish the writers would do something original with the character.


Added DiffLines:

* SeinfeldIsUnfunny: Was pretty extreme when it first came out, even after ''Comicbook/{{Watchmen}}'' and ''Comicbook/TheDarkKnightReturns'' intensified the comic book medium. Nowadays, the whole attack-a-woman-to-spite-a-man plotline has been done to death, with stories like ''Comicbook/IdentityCrisis'' and ''Videogame/InjusticeGodsAmongUs'' milking it dry.
22nd Dec '15 5:46:07 PM Tork
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Added DiffLines:

* NightmareFuel: Yes.
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