History YMMV / TheElderscrollsIVOblivion

1st Jul '17 1:57:51 PM littlebeeper
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* VindicatedByHistory: While ''Oblivion'' was critically acclaimed on launch, it feel into the usual Bethesda cycle of "Loved on release, disliked by many as flaws become apparent." However, among the older members of the ''Elder Scrolls'' fandom who weren't fond of the changes to ''Skyrim'' that they saw as dumbing down, this game has gotten a re-examining by fans who enjoy it more now.

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* VindicatedByHistory: While ''Oblivion'' was critically acclaimed on launch, it feel fell into the usual Bethesda cycle of "Loved on release, disliked by many as flaws become apparent." However, among the older members of the ''Elder Scrolls'' fandom who weren't fond of the changes to ''Skyrim'' that they saw as dumbing down, this game has gotten a re-examining by fans who enjoy it more now.
10th May '17 9:11:06 AM Antronach
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** All this becomes more painful to bear once you play ''Online'' and discover that [[spoiler:Galerion the Mystic, the founder of the Mage's Guild, failed to stop necromancy and Mannimarco as well, making Traven's goals parallel Galerion's almost to a fault.]]



** [[spoiler:The Bruma guildhall]], and everyone in it, getting ''blown up'' by Mannimarco during the Mages Guild questline.

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** [[spoiler:The Bruma guildhall]], guildhall, and everyone in it, getting ''blown up'' by Mannimarco during the Mages Guild questline.questline]].
28th Apr '17 11:24:06 AM ACW
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* CompleteMonster: Besides Mannimarco (see YMMV/TheElderScrolls), there is [[TheHeavy Mankar Camoran]], the leader of [[ApocalypseCult the Mythic Dawn]] and a worshipper of [[OmnicidalManiac Mehrunes]] [[BigBad Dagon]]. During ''Oblivion'', Mankar's goal is to summon his master into Tamriel so Dagon may destroy the world and create a new one in its place, one that coheres with Camoran's [[SocialDarwinism Social Darwinist beliefs]]. Not only does Mankar assist Dagon's [[OurDemonsAreDifferent Daedra]] in attacking the mortal world, he also orchestrates the assassination of Emperor Uriel Septim, as well as his children. He even had the city of Kvatch completely destroyed in a failed attempt to kill Uriel's bastard son, Martin. While Mankar lures in his followers with promises of a paradise for their faithful service, this turns out to be a lie. Seemingly idyllic on the surface, Mankar's "Paradise" is really a hell where his followers are constantly killed by monsters, only to be resurrected and killed over and over again. His promise to allow any follower who loses faith to leave his paradise also proves false, as the grotto, which is said to be an exit from the afterlife, really leads to a torture chamber where the unfaithful are [[AndIMustScream made immortal, locked into gibbets, and then dumped into lava]]. One follower who lost faith was forced by Camoran into inflicting this punishment on his friends over and over again. Paradise is said to be Mankar's vision of how he believes the world will be once Dagon takes over.

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* CompleteMonster: Besides Mannimarco (see YMMV/TheElderScrolls), there is [[TheHeavy Mankar Camoran]], the leader of [[ApocalypseCult the Mythic Dawn]] and a worshipper of [[OmnicidalManiac Mehrunes]] [[BigBad Dagon]]. During ''Oblivion'', Mankar's goal is Mehrunes Dagon]], who aims to summon his master into Tamriel so Dagon may [[OmnicidalManiac destroy the world and create a new one in its place, place]], one that coheres with Camoran's [[SocialDarwinism Social Darwinist beliefs]]. Not only does Mankar assist Dagon's [[OurDemonsAreDifferent Daedra]] in attacking the mortal world, he also orchestrates the assassination of Emperor Uriel Septim, as well as his children.[[WouldHurtAChild children]]. He even had the city of Kvatch completely destroyed in a failed attempt to kill Uriel's bastard son, Martin. While Mankar lures in his followers with promises of a paradise for their faithful service, this turns out to be a lie. Seemingly idyllic on the surface, Mankar's "Paradise" is really a hell where his followers are constantly killed by monsters, only to be resurrected and killed over and over again. His promise to allow any follower who loses faith to leave his paradise also proves false, as the grotto, which is said to be an exit from the afterlife, really leads to a torture chamber where the unfaithful are [[AndIMustScream made immortal, locked into gibbets, and then dumped into lava]]. One follower who lost faith was forced by Camoran into inflicting this punishment on his friends over and over again. Paradise is said to be Mankar's vision of how he believes the world will be once Dagon takes over.
28th Apr '17 11:21:35 AM ACW
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* CompleteMonster: Besides Mannimarco (see YMMV/TheElderScrolls), there is [[TheHeavy Mankar Camoran]], the leader of the Mythic Dawn {{cult}} and a worshipper of [[OmnicidalManiac Mehrunes]] [[BigBad Dagon]]. During ''Oblivion'', Mankarís goal is to summon his master into Tamriel so Dagon may destroy the world and create a new one in its place, one that coheres with Camoranís [[SocialDarwinism Social Darwinist beliefs]]. Not only does Mankar aide Dagonís Daedra in attacking the mortal world, he also orchestrates the assassination of Emperor Uriel Septim, as well as his children. He even had the city of Kvatch completely destroyed in a failed attempt to kill Urielís bastard son, Martin. While Mankar lures in his followers with promises of a paradise for their faithful service, this turns out to be a lie. Seemingly idyllic on the surface, Mankarís ďParadiseĒ is really a hell where his followers are constantly killed by monsters, only to be resurrected and killed over and over again. His promise to allow any follower who loses faith to leave his paradise also proves false, as the grotto, which is said to be an exit from the afterlife, really leads to a torture chamber where the unfaithful are [[AndIMustScream made immortal, locked into gibbets, and then dumped into lava]]. One follower who lost faith was forced by Camoran into inflicting this punishment on his friends over and over again. Paradise is said to be Mankarís vision of how he believes the world will be once Dagon takes over.

to:

* CompleteMonster: Besides Mannimarco (see YMMV/TheElderScrolls), there is [[TheHeavy Mankar Camoran]], the leader of [[ApocalypseCult the Mythic Dawn {{cult}} Dawn]] and a worshipper of [[OmnicidalManiac Mehrunes]] [[BigBad Dagon]]. During ''Oblivion'', Mankarís Mankar's goal is to summon his master into Tamriel so Dagon may destroy the world and create a new one in its place, one that coheres with Camoranís Camoran's [[SocialDarwinism Social Darwinist beliefs]]. Not only does Mankar aide Dagonís Daedra assist Dagon's [[OurDemonsAreDifferent Daedra]] in attacking the mortal world, he also orchestrates the assassination of Emperor Uriel Septim, as well as his children. He even had the city of Kvatch completely destroyed in a failed attempt to kill Urielís Uriel's bastard son, Martin. While Mankar lures in his followers with promises of a paradise for their faithful service, this turns out to be a lie. Seemingly idyllic on the surface, Mankarís ďParadiseĒ Mankar's "Paradise" is really a hell where his followers are constantly killed by monsters, only to be resurrected and killed over and over again. His promise to allow any follower who loses faith to leave his paradise also proves false, as the grotto, which is said to be an exit from the afterlife, really leads to a torture chamber where the unfaithful are [[AndIMustScream made immortal, locked into gibbets, and then dumped into lava]]. One follower who lost faith was forced by Camoran into inflicting this punishment on his friends over and over again. Paradise is said to be Mankarís Mankar's vision of how he believes the world will be once Dagon takes over.
26th Mar '17 2:44:08 PM Gosicrystal
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** The disposition roulette can be this until you learn how it works, and even then your speech can make certain things LostForever; thankfully bribing enough can cover you if you fail.

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** The disposition roulette can be this until you learn how it works, and even then your speech can make certain things LostForever; {{permanently missable|Content}}; thankfully bribing enough can cover you if you fail.
10th Mar '17 2:31:33 PM SorPepita
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* {{Narm}}: The random conversations between NPCs can sometimes become this. A good example is when they suddenly start talking about mudcrabs and how ugly they are.

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* {{Narm}}: The random conversations between NPCs [=NPCs=] can sometimes become this. A good example is when they suddenly start talking about mudcrabs and how ugly they are.
3rd Mar '17 6:01:49 AM SorPepita
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* Narm: The random conversations between npc's can sometimes become this. A good example is when they suddenly start talking about mudcrabs and how ugly they are.

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* Narm: {{Narm}}: The random conversations between npc's NPCs can sometimes become this. A good example is when they suddenly start talking about mudcrabs and how ugly they are.



** Interestingly enough, many fans of Morrowind who had been waiting for Oblivion's release actually found themselves put off by the cumbersome mechanics, flawed level scaling, the "weird" faces which were soft and pudgy compared to Morrowind's sharp, angular models, and the overworld which felt too ordinary in comparison to the rich alien world of Morrowind. Not to mention the removal of beloved (and broken) mechanics such as levitation and scroll-making, many fans felt it was nearly a downgrade from Morrowind. Possibly a case of TheyChangedItNowItSucks, but it seems that Oblivion will always remain the UnFavorite middle sibling between Morrowind and Skyrim.

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** Interestingly enough, many fans of Morrowind who had been waiting for Oblivion's release actually found themselves put off by the cumbersome mechanics, flawed level scaling, the "weird" faces which were soft and pudgy compared to Morrowind's sharp, angular models, and the overworld which felt too ordinary in comparison to the rich alien world of Morrowind. Not to mention the removal of beloved (and broken) mechanics such as levitation and scroll-making, many scroll-making. Many fans felt it was nearly a downgrade from Morrowind. Possibly a case of TheyChangedItNowItSucks, but it seems that Oblivion will always remain the UnFavorite middle sibling between Morrowind and Skyrim.



** The disposition roulette can be this until you learn how it works, and even then your speech can make certain things LostForever, thankfully bribing enough can cover you if you fail.

to:

** The disposition roulette can be this until you learn how it works, and even then your speech can make certain things LostForever, LostForever; thankfully bribing enough can cover you if you fail.



* ThatOneAttack: Its very possible that you will contract Porphyric Hemophilia when fighting vampires, often without realizing it. Only to realize three days later that the disease has advanced and you've become a vampire. Forcing you to either reload an older save or go on a lengthy quest to cure it.
* ThatOneBoss: Umbra (the person), if you don't come properly prepared, is quite possibly the hardest boss in the entire game, she wields the weapon Umbra and wears full Ebony Armor. She deals INSANE amounts of damage and an even worse thing is you have to fight her in a small closed area so you'll easily get stuck in a corner. Therefore, if you plan on going through with the associated quest, it's advised that you get yourself plenty of followers (such as the Jemane brothers, Erthor from the Skingrad Recommendation quest, etc.) to back you up, and the best weapons, armor, and spells you can possibly get your hands on at that point.
* ThatOneSidequest: Collecting 100 Nirnroot plants. "You must have turned every stone in all of Cyrodiil". [[spoiler:Though it's not quite as hard as it sounds- there are over 300 nirnroot plants in the game (they can be used in alchemy) so finding 100 isn't too straining. Three of the DLC add-ons include extra nirnroots too- and the one in Deepscorn Hollow respawns every 3 days as it's a "collected" food object on a desk, rather than a plant.]]

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* ThatOneAttack: Its It's very possible that you will contract Porphyric Hemophilia when fighting vampires, often without realizing it. Only to realize three days later that the disease has advanced and you've become a vampire. Forcing you to either reload an older save or go on a lengthy quest to cure it.
* ThatOneBoss: Umbra (the person), if you don't come properly prepared, is quite possibly the hardest boss in the entire game, she game. She wields the weapon Umbra and wears full Ebony Armor. She deals INSANE amounts of damage damage, and an even worse thing is you have to fight her in a small closed area so you'll easily get stuck in a corner. Therefore, if you plan on going through with the associated quest, it's advised that you get yourself plenty of followers (such as the Jemane brothers, Erthor from the Skingrad Recommendation quest, etc.) to back you up, and the best weapons, armor, and spells you can possibly get your hands on at that point.
* ThatOneSidequest: Collecting 100 Nirnroot plants. "You must have turned every stone in all of Cyrodiil". [[spoiler:Though it's not quite as hard as it sounds- there are over 300 nirnroot Nirnroot plants in the game (they can be used in alchemy) so finding 100 isn't too straining. Three of the DLC add-ons include extra nirnroots Nirnroots too- and the one in Deepscorn Hollow respawns every 3 days as it's a "collected" food object on a desk, rather than a plant.]]



** Maglir, the biggest coward in the fighter's guild. Getting to splat him is satisfying. [[spoiler: That is, assuming a bug in the game doesn't kick in... sometimes he's not properly removed from the Fighter's Guild faction (may be related to OOO or another mod but it has been reported in vanilla environments) and killing him will get you expelled when you return to Chorrol.]]
** [[PointyHairedBoss Jeanne Frasoric]]. The friendly and nice guild mistress of Bruma, who can barely be called "sorcerer" let along "mage" . She seems to only be there because of her social skills. She dies in "A Plot Reveled" but whether or not you feel sorry for her is up to how you see her.

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** Maglir, the biggest coward in the fighter's guild.Fighter's Guild. Getting to splat him is satisfying. [[spoiler: That is, assuming a bug in the game doesn't kick in... sometimes he's not properly removed from the Fighter's Guild faction (may be related to OOO or another mod mod, but it has been reported in vanilla environments) and killing him will get you expelled when you return to Chorrol.]]
** [[PointyHairedBoss Jeanne Frasoric]]. The friendly and nice guild mistress of Bruma, Bruma who can barely be called "sorcerer" "sorcerer", let along "mage" . "mage". She seems to only be there only because of her social skills. She dies in "A Plot Reveled" but whether or not you feel sorry for her is up to how you see her.



* VillainDecay: It hits Mannimarco rather hard. Throughout the Mages Guild questline, he's set up as the ArcVillain of that story, having characters become unnerved or outright terrified by knowing that he's reappeared, there's a pretty good poem-style book about his history to find which sets him up as a powerful evil, at one point, he deals a scarily effective, unexpected blow to the Mages Guild and the only survivor of the attack is terrified and tells you how he, concealed by magic, watched Mannimarco rip out his friend's soul and how he believes the guy actually could see through his magical disguise and pretty much just spared him for fun. Then Mannimarco effectively manages to corrupt and disrupt the Mages Council. By the end of the questline, you seriously get the feeling that everything's going to hell for the Mages Guild if you don't stop him quickly. So, after finding his hideout and slaughtering your way through his minions, [[spoiler: he's a moderately powerful Altmer wizard whose spells might be slightly threatening at the very worst]].

to:

* VillainDecay: It hits Mannimarco rather hard. Throughout the Mages Guild questline, he's set up as the ArcVillain of that story, having characters become unnerved or outright terrified by knowing that he's reappeared, reappeared; there's a pretty good poem-style book about his history to find which sets him up as a powerful evil, evil; at one point, he deals a scarily effective, unexpected blow to the Mages Guild and the only survivor of the attack is terrified and tells you how he, concealed by magic, watched Mannimarco rip out his friend's soul and how he believes the guy actually could see through his magical disguise and pretty much just spared him for fun. Then Mannimarco effectively manages to corrupt and disrupt the Mages Council. By the end of the questline, you seriously get the feeling that everything's going to hell for the Mages Guild if you don't stop him quickly. So, after finding his hideout and slaughtering your way through his minions, [[spoiler: he's a moderately powerful Altmer wizard whose spells might be slightly threatening at the very worst]].



* WhatAnIdiot: Azura's followers went out to kill a Vampire, and NOT ONE of them thought to pack some potions to curse the inevitable diseases, or better yet spells? Riiight...
* WhatDoYouMeanItsNotPolitical: In the book "The Eastern Provinces", the author gives a very disapproving critique of the Empire's costly occupation of Morrowind and the Black Marsh, citing how wasteful it is to spend taxpayer money on troops stationed there and how, rather than putting an end to the despicable human right violations (slavery), the Empire is only interested in the valuable black natural resource it can exploit from the lands (ebony), and how keeping on this track will lead the Empire into financial ruin.

to:

* WhatAnIdiot: Azura's followers went out to kill a Vampire, and NOT ONE of them thought to pack some potions to curse the inevitable diseases, or or, better yet yet, spells? Riiight...
* WhatDoYouMeanItsNotPolitical: In the book "The Eastern Provinces", the author gives a very disapproving critique of the Empire's costly occupation of Morrowind and the Black Marsh, citing how wasteful it is to spend taxpayer money on troops stationed there and how, rather than putting an end to the despicable human right violations (slavery), the Empire is only interested in the valuable valuable, black natural resource it can exploit from the lands (ebony), and how keeping on this track will lead the Empire into financial ruin.



** Hirrus Clutumnus in the Shivering Isles DLC, who's whole existence seems to be laced with soul-crushing misery. He can't even bring himself to commit suicide because being a ghost on the Hill of Suicides would be even worse than the life he leads right now.

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** Hirrus Clutumnus in the Shivering Isles DLC, who's whose whole existence seems to be laced with soul-crushing misery. He can't even bring himself to commit suicide because being a ghost on the Hill of Suicides would be even worse than the life he leads right now.
3rd Mar '17 5:44:11 AM SorPepita
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** Vicente Valtieri, despite being more ugly than the rest of the people in game due to his extreme vampirism, [[VampiresAreSexGods has his own fans]]. Perhaps it's his VillainousCheekbones or handsome voice.

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** Vicente Valtieri, despite being more ugly than the rest of the people in game due to his extreme vampirism, [[VampiresAreSexGods has his own fans]]. Perhaps it's his VillainousCheekbones VillainousCheekbones, or his handsome voice.



** If you jump at just the right moment when running up a set of steps you bug out the physics engine and ramp it, if your athleticism is high enough, or if you say... drink 3 bottles of skooma to give you the effect instead... then ramp... you go flying through the air, while this ''can'' get you trapped outside the citie's walls if you're not cautious, it can also be used to beat the main game for the low low price of stealing a few bottles of skooma.(This is done by using the ramping to get on top of the buildings in the Imperial City, Temple districts, then jumping onto the main mbuilding, which has no collision as it isn't otherwise reachable. There's a door there that leads to the invaded version of the city, head through it, the turn back around and watch a scene play... Tadah! You beat the game... at level 1.)
** Summitmist Manor in Skingrad, the location for the quest "Whodunit" is programmed so that the relevant characters in the quest can't leave it. Only this programming applies to ''every'' NPC in the game, meaning that if you can get any NPC to follow you in there (i.e. by attacking them or using a sufficiently powerful command spell) they will be locked in there forever. Have fun filling Summitmist Manor with the most mismatched collection of characters you can think of!

to:

** If you jump at just the right moment when running up a set of steps so you bug out the physics engine and ramp it, it; if your athleticism is high enough, or if you you, say... drink 3 bottles of skooma to give you the effect instead... then ramp... you go flying through the air, while air. While this ''can'' get you trapped outside the citie's city's walls if you're not cautious, it can also be used to beat the main game for the low low, low price of stealing a few bottles of skooma.skooma. (This is done by using the ramping to get on top of the buildings in the Imperial City, Temple districts, then jumping onto the main mbuilding, building, which has no collision as it isn't otherwise reachable. There's a door there that leads to the invaded version of the city, head through it, the then turn back around and watch a scene play... Tadah! You beat the game... at level 1.)
** Summitmist Manor in Skingrad, the location for the quest "Whodunit" "Whodunit", is programmed so that the relevant characters in the quest can't leave it. Only this programming applies to ''every'' NPC in the game, meaning that if you can get any NPC to follow you in there (i.e. by attacking them or using a sufficiently powerful command spell) they will be locked in there forever. Have fun filling Summitmist Manor with the most mismatched collection of characters you can think of!



** The Ogre has the same soundbytes as the Imp from ''VideoGame/{{Doom}}''. Three years after this game's initial release, Zenimax (Bethesda's parent company) acquired id Software, the company responsible for developing ''Doom''.

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** The Ogre has the same soundbytes as the Imp from ''VideoGame/{{Doom}}''. Three years after this game's initial release, Zenimax (Bethesda's parent company) acquired id Id Software, the company responsible for developing ''Doom''.



* HoYay: From Knights of the Nine, Sir Berich and Sir Caius. Despite having been killed by the former, Sir Caius seems oddly eager to clear Sir Berich's name and enter Afterlife with him. Sir Berich seems equally excited about it.

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* HoYay: From Knights ''Knights of the Nine, Nine'', Sir Berich and Sir Caius. Despite having been killed by the former, Sir Caius seems oddly eager to clear Sir Berich's name and enter Afterlife with him. Sir Berich seems equally excited about it.
3rd Mar '17 5:25:03 AM SorPepita
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* DesignatedHero: If you think about it, Traven's ''not'' a very good Archmage. His very first act upon taking the position is completely outlawing Necromancy in Cyrodiil after centuries of it being tolerated and he expelled and blacklisted ''over half'' of the Council when they protested. He forces the Arcane University, one of the greatest learning centers in Tamriel, to close its doors to all but the highest ranking guildmembers, which completely contradicts the guild's original purpose. He's made the guild sever ties with any organization that so much as ''tolerates'' necromancy, putting a serious strain on both manpower and resources. Finally, the main reason he seems to hate necromancy is because it involves stealing the souls of living beings, but it's explicitly stated that they didn't start doing this until ''after'' Traven's draconian policies came into effect. There is no denying that Mannimarco is evil, but it's all but stated that the only reason his Order has become so powerful is [[NiceJobBreakingItHero because Traven's actions allowed his ranks to become bolstered by hundreds of disgruntled mages]]. As stated above, this is why the Guild fell to both the strong anti-magic sentiment that arose after the "Oblivion Crisis" and the Thalmor in the centuries between ''Oblivion'' and ''Skyrim''. If it makes anyone feel better, Traven helps you to stop Mannimarco by trapping his soul into the Order of the Black Worm's giant soul gem to protect you and is most likely trapped in the Soul Cairn and must suffer for it.

to:

* DesignatedHero: If you think about it, Traven's ''not'' a very good Archmage. His very first act upon taking the position is completely outlawing Necromancy in Cyrodiil after centuries of it being tolerated and he expelled and blacklisted ''over half'' of the Council when they protested. He forces the Arcane University, one of the greatest learning centers in Tamriel, to close its doors to all but the highest ranking guildmembers, which completely contradicts the guild's original purpose. He's made the guild sever ties with any organization that so much as ''tolerates'' necromancy, putting a serious strain on both manpower and resources. Finally, the main reason he seems to hate necromancy is because it involves stealing the souls of living beings, but it's explicitly stated that they didn't start doing this until ''after'' Traven's draconian policies came into effect. There is no denying that Mannimarco is evil, but it's all but stated that the only reason his Order has become so powerful is [[NiceJobBreakingItHero because Traven's actions allowed his ranks to become bolstered by hundreds of disgruntled mages]]. As stated above, this is why the Guild fell to both the strong anti-magic sentiment that arose after the "Oblivion Crisis" and the Thalmor in the centuries between ''Oblivion'' and ''Skyrim''. If it makes anyone feel better, Traven helps you to stop Mannimarco by trapping his soul into the Order of the Black Worm's giant soul gem to protect you you, and is most likely trapped in the Soul Cairn and must suffer for it.
3rd Mar '17 5:20:21 AM SorPepita
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* DesignatedHero: If you think about, Traven's ''not'' a very good Archmage. His very first act upon taking the position is completely outlawing Necromancy in Cyrodiil after centuries of it being tolerated and he expelled and blacklisted ''over half'' of the Council when they protested. He forces the Arcane University, one of the greatest learning centers in Tamriel, to close its doors to all but the highest ranking guildmembers, which completely contradicts the guild's original purpose. He's made the guild sever ties with any organization that so much as ''tolerates'' necromancy, putting a serious strain on both manpower and resources. Finally, the main reason he seems to hate necromancy is because it involves stealing the souls of living beings, but it's explicitly stated that they didn't start doing this until ''after'' Traven's draconian policies came into effect. There is no denying that Mannimarco is evil, but it's all but stated that the only reason his Order has become so powerful is [[NiceJobBreakingItHero because Traven's actions allowed his ranks to become bolstered by hundreds of disgruntled mages]]. As stated above, this is why the Guild fell to both the strong anti-magic sentiment that arose after the "Oblivion Crisis" and the Thalmor in the centuries between ''Oblivion'' and ''Skyrim''. If it makes anyone feel better, Traven helps you to stop Mannimarco by trapping his soul into the Order of the Black Worm's giant soul gem to protect you and is most likely trapped in the Soul Cairn and must suffer for it.

to:

* DesignatedHero: If you think about, about it, Traven's ''not'' a very good Archmage. His very first act upon taking the position is completely outlawing Necromancy in Cyrodiil after centuries of it being tolerated and he expelled and blacklisted ''over half'' of the Council when they protested. He forces the Arcane University, one of the greatest learning centers in Tamriel, to close its doors to all but the highest ranking guildmembers, which completely contradicts the guild's original purpose. He's made the guild sever ties with any organization that so much as ''tolerates'' necromancy, putting a serious strain on both manpower and resources. Finally, the main reason he seems to hate necromancy is because it involves stealing the souls of living beings, but it's explicitly stated that they didn't start doing this until ''after'' Traven's draconian policies came into effect. There is no denying that Mannimarco is evil, but it's all but stated that the only reason his Order has become so powerful is [[NiceJobBreakingItHero because Traven's actions allowed his ranks to become bolstered by hundreds of disgruntled mages]]. As stated above, this is why the Guild fell to both the strong anti-magic sentiment that arose after the "Oblivion Crisis" and the Thalmor in the centuries between ''Oblivion'' and ''Skyrim''. If it makes anyone feel better, Traven helps you to stop Mannimarco by trapping his soul into the Order of the Black Worm's giant soul gem to protect you and is most likely trapped in the Soul Cairn and must suffer for it.
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