History YMMV / TheDarkKnightReturns

23rd Apr '13 5:37:16 PM urutapu
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!!!''TheDarkKnightReturns'': The Comic
* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: ''The Dark Knight Returns'' and ''The Dark Knight Strikes Again'' presented Batman as a dangerously-obsessed, deeply-disturbed, paranoid, control freak who is possibly a mentally ill SociopathicHero as opposed to the stalwart Caped Crusader of the Golden and Silver ages and the Adam West series. This interpretation is touched on DependingOnTheWriter and sometimes it is the basis for whole story arcs.
** One example is his creation of the Brother Mk I satellite which was created by Batman to keep an eye on all of the meta-humans, hero and villain alike.
** Another story, Tower of Babel, centers on Ra's Al Ghul obtaining a file containing Batman's contingency plans to cripple each and every member of the Justice League "just in case" and using them to his own ends. The existence of the files and the secrecy under which they are kept infuriates The League and leads to his expulsion.
** Superman is also an ineffectual tool and government stooge.
** This is {{hinted at}} in ''Film/TheDarkKnight''.
*** Another issue of interpretation is whether he became a man the night his parents died, or if he never truly grew
* BigLippedAlligatorMoment: Batman of all people quotes Creator/MontyPython.
** Nazi Transvestite and Batman dressing up as a large wino woman.
* CompleteMonster: The Joker.
* FanonDiscontinuity: Lots of people like to imagine that ''TheDarkKnightStrikesAgain'' doesn't exist. Though WordOfGod confirms that ''ComicBook/AllStarBatmanAndRobinTheBoyWonder'' is this book's prequel, plenty of fans are happy to ignore this.
* FranchiseOriginalSin: The book helped destroy the notion of Batman as a light-hearted camp character but he is noticeably more of a BloodKnight and borderline psychotic than even most other "serious" interpretations of the character. This part of the character is unfortunately ramped UpToEleven in the two Miller Batman books above where the character is practically insane.
* FoeYay: Batman and The Joker. Very explicitly for Joker's side.
* GenreTurningPoint: ''TheDarkKnightReturns'' and ''ComicBook/{{Watchmen}}'' ushered in the DarkAge of comics.
* HarsherInHindsight:
** The depiction, manner and philosophy of the Mutants are frankly eerily similar to the more abusive "Anonymous" cells online. This is referring to the steal-your-identity-and-send-you-death-threats type of Anonymous and not the image board type of Anonymous.
** Two-Face trying to destroy Gotham's Twin Towers with a bomb, seven years before the same thing was attempted on the real Twin Towers with a car bomb. [[TheWarOnTerror Later on,]] [[spoiler:a 747 crashes into same said towers, destroying them and setting Gotham on fire]]. ''Fourteen'' years before the same thing happened in RealLife.
** The scene where a disturbed gunman shoots up a movie theater is disturbing in light of the shooting at a Colorado screening of ''Film/TheDarkKnightRises''.
*** In the wake of the shootings, a [[http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/rsz_1guns_are_the_rage_of_the_beast_6101_3043.png panel]] from TDKR depicting Batman breaking a gun in half gained popularity on the 'Net.
** Several people are nearly killed after getting knocked into the subway, they get saved, unlike two people killed in 2012 in the New York subways.
* HilariousInHindsight : This came decades before the meme actually started, but take a look at this quote:
--> '''Mutant Gang Member''': ''(after being attacked by a bat)'' It's just a [[ComicBook/AllstarBatmanAndRobinTheBoyWonder goddamned]] [[GoddamnedBats bat]].
* HypeBacklash
* MagnificentBastard: The Joker. His intent is to drive Batman to finally kill him and then be hunted down by the cops for [[ThouShaltNotKill crossing the line]]. Instead, Batman only breaks his neck enough to paralyse him. So what does Joker do? [[spoiler:HE TWISTS HIS NECK THE REST OF THE WAY ROUND AND FINISHES THE JOB]], ensuing that Batman will indeed be hunted down by the GCPD.
* OlderThanTheyThink: The Swastika pastie woman who attracted so much disbelief in ''[[AllStarDCComics All Star Batman and Robin]]''.
* SeinfeldIsUnfunny:
** Having Batman and Superman forced into a battle to the death was far more shocking to audiences in 1986 than it ever could be today, since, up to that point, the two had always been portrayed as the best of friends. Since then, the stark contrast between Superman's idealism and Batman's pragmatism has become an essential part of their character dynamic, and it's traditional to depict them as complete {{foil}}s who have difficulty trusting one another.
** Likewise, the revelation that Jason Todd was murdered before the events of the story held a lot more weight when the book first came out, since the character's death hadn't yet happened in the regular comics (''A Death in the Family'' didn't come out until 1988), and the idea of Robin being KilledOffForReal was still unthinkable to most readers. Now that Jason has since [[ComicBookDeath died and been resurrected]] as a {{badass}} AntiHero with his own series, hearing Batman angsting about his death can cause some eye-rolling.
** Divorced from its cold war context, Superman fighting the Viet Cong can seem very silly and on the nose to modern day readers.
* UltimateShowdownOfUltimateDestiny: Batman vs. Superman. Booyah again.

!!!''WesternAnimation/BatmanTheDarkKnightReturns'': The Film

* AngstWhatAngst:
** Jason Todd was a good soldier. He honored Bruce.... but the war goes on.
** Bruce doesn't seem too upset about [[spoiler: Alfred's death.]]
* AnimationAgeGhetto: Averted.
* BrokenBase:
** The fanbase likes to debate over whether or not the edit to the hostage scene was justifiable (edited to where Batman disarms his opponent as opposed to shooting her dead). Supporters argue that it 'fixes' Batman's character, detractors argue that it [[{{Bowdlerization}} bowdlerizes the scene]], doesn't fit Frank Miller's [[AntiHero characterization]] of [[SociopathicHero Batman]] and dilutes the effectiveness of his BondOneLiner. Even more, some people don't realize that WordOfGod stated Batman didn't kill that Mutant in the comic despite being [[OnlyAFleshWound a shoulder shot with a really big gun.]]
** The BrokenBase got even wider on the release of the second part. Opinions go from EvenBetterSequel, okay, an inferior, to a horrible film compared to the first part. And let's not get the flak it gets for how {{Superman}} is portrayed, as well as the Cold War era propaganda and RonaldReagan's portrayal.
* CompleteMonster: The Joker once again.
* CrowningMusicOfAwesome: The soundtrack is ''epic''.
* DesignatedVillain: Superman, of all people.
* FauxSymbolism: The first time in ''Part 2'' when Clark meets with Bruce out horseback riding, an [[{{Eagleland}} eagle lands]] on Clark's arm. A few moments later, it takes off and seizes a defenseless mouse in front of Clark's feet.
* FoeYay:
** [[spoiler: [[SelfDemonstrating/TheJoker "Batman... darling!"]].]]
** Their last battle with Joker is has plenty of this.
* HarsherInHindsight: The film expands on Joker's shooting spree in the Tunnel of Love which can be very, ''very'' unsettling in the wake of the Aurora shooting and the Sandy Hook Massacre.
* MoralEventHorizon: In-universe, this happens when the mutants murdered a kidnapped child.
* {{Narm}}: Sure, he's a blind government lackey to an idiot president, but did Superman really have to show up in an outfit straight from a bad supermarket romance novel and have an eagle just coincidentally perch on his arm? [[http://i.imgur.com/YWypgHF.jpg]]
* {{Squick}}:
** At one point when Batman is "dealing" with a crook you can hear the guy's bones cracking and grinding.
** Likewise, [[spoiler:Batman breaking the arm and leg of the Mutant's leader]] ''will'' make you cringe.
* StrawmanHasAPoint: Regardless of Their portrayal as weak and unable to do what is necessary, many of the pundits are absolutely correct when They say Batman is an outlaw and They're not far off the point when They say he must bear some responsibility for groups acting in his name. And creating a culture that is both heavily dependent and admiring of a disturbed outlaw with no hesitation in using brutal violence is hardly an idea worth supporting.
* ToughActToFollow: PeterWeller as Batman is sometimes compared unfavorably with MichaelIronside, who voiced Batman in a ''Dark Knight Returns''-based segment of ''[[WesternAnimation/BatmanTheAnimatedSeries The New Batman Adventures]]''.
* WhatAnIdiot: The mayor tries to negotiate with the mutant leader in a jail cell and gets his throat torn out. The deputy mayor goes on TV and says he too is willing to negotiate, despite what happened.
* TheWoobie[=/=]JerkassWoobie: Harvey Dent.
** Bruce is also an IronWoobie, since he's still carrying the pain of losing his parents and the burden of his mission on his shoulders, yet he also enjoys doing what he does (a little too much).
----

to:

!!!''TheDarkKnightReturns'': The Comic
* AlternateCharacterInterpretation: ''The Dark Knight Returns'' and ''The Dark Knight Strikes Again'' presented Batman as a dangerously-obsessed, deeply-disturbed, paranoid, control freak who is possibly a mentally ill SociopathicHero as opposed to the stalwart Caped Crusader of the Golden and Silver ages and the Adam West series. This interpretation is touched on DependingOnTheWriter and sometimes it is the basis for whole story arcs.
** One example is his creation of the Brother Mk I satellite which was created by Batman to keep an eye on all of the meta-humans, hero and villain alike.
** Another story, Tower of Babel, centers on Ra's Al Ghul obtaining a file containing Batman's contingency plans to cripple each and every member of the Justice League "just in case" and using them to his own ends. The existence of the files and the secrecy under which they are kept infuriates The League and leads to his expulsion.
** Superman is also an ineffectual tool and government stooge.
** This is {{hinted at}} in ''Film/TheDarkKnight''.
*** Another issue of interpretation is whether he became a man the night his parents died, or if he never truly grew
* BigLippedAlligatorMoment: Batman of all people quotes Creator/MontyPython.
** Nazi Transvestite and Batman dressing up as a large wino woman.
* CompleteMonster: The Joker.
* FanonDiscontinuity: Lots of people like to imagine that ''TheDarkKnightStrikesAgain'' doesn't exist. Though WordOfGod confirms that ''ComicBook/AllStarBatmanAndRobinTheBoyWonder'' is this book's prequel, plenty of fans are happy to ignore this.
* FranchiseOriginalSin: The book helped destroy the notion of Batman as a light-hearted camp character but he is noticeably more of a BloodKnight and borderline psychotic than even most other "serious" interpretations of the character. This part of the character is unfortunately ramped UpToEleven in the two Miller Batman books above where the character is practically insane.
* FoeYay: Batman and The Joker. Very explicitly for Joker's side.
* GenreTurningPoint: ''TheDarkKnightReturns'' and ''ComicBook/{{Watchmen}}'' ushered in the DarkAge of comics.
* HarsherInHindsight:
** The depiction, manner and philosophy of the Mutants are frankly eerily similar to the more abusive "Anonymous" cells online. This is referring to the steal-your-identity-and-send-you-death-threats type of Anonymous and not the image board type of Anonymous.
** Two-Face trying to destroy Gotham's Twin Towers with a bomb, seven years before the same thing was attempted on the real Twin Towers with a car bomb. [[TheWarOnTerror Later on,]] [[spoiler:a 747 crashes into same said towers, destroying them and setting Gotham on fire]]. ''Fourteen'' years before the same thing happened in RealLife.
** The scene where a disturbed gunman shoots up a movie theater is disturbing in light of the shooting at a Colorado screening of ''Film/TheDarkKnightRises''.
*** In the wake of the shootings, a [[http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/rsz_1guns_are_the_rage_of_the_beast_6101_3043.png panel]] from TDKR depicting Batman breaking a gun in half gained popularity on the 'Net.
** Several people are nearly killed after getting knocked into the subway, they get saved, unlike two people killed in 2012 in the New York subways.
* HilariousInHindsight : This came decades before the meme actually started, but take a look at this quote:
--> '''Mutant Gang Member''': ''(after being attacked by a bat)'' It's just a [[ComicBook/AllstarBatmanAndRobinTheBoyWonder goddamned]] [[GoddamnedBats bat]].
* HypeBacklash
* MagnificentBastard: The Joker. His intent is to drive Batman to finally kill him and then be hunted down by the cops for [[ThouShaltNotKill crossing the line]]. Instead, Batman only breaks his neck enough to paralyse him. So what does Joker do? [[spoiler:HE TWISTS HIS NECK THE REST OF THE WAY ROUND AND FINISHES THE JOB]], ensuing that Batman will indeed be hunted down by the GCPD.
* OlderThanTheyThink: The Swastika pastie woman who attracted so much disbelief in ''[[AllStarDCComics All Star Batman and Robin]]''.
* SeinfeldIsUnfunny:
** Having Batman and Superman forced into a battle to the death was far more shocking to audiences in 1986 than it ever could be today, since, up to that point, the two had always been portrayed as the best of friends. Since then, the stark contrast between Superman's idealism and Batman's pragmatism has become an essential part of their character dynamic, and it's traditional to depict them as complete {{foil}}s who have difficulty trusting one another.
** Likewise, the revelation that Jason Todd was murdered before the events of the story held a lot more weight when the book first came out, since the character's death hadn't yet happened in the regular comics (''A Death in the Family'' didn't come out until 1988), and the idea of Robin being KilledOffForReal was still unthinkable to most readers. Now that Jason has since [[ComicBookDeath died and been resurrected]] as a {{badass}} AntiHero with his own series, hearing Batman angsting about his death can cause some eye-rolling.
** Divorced from its cold war context, Superman fighting the Viet Cong can seem very silly and on the nose to modern day readers.
* UltimateShowdownOfUltimateDestiny: Batman vs. Superman. Booyah again.

!!!''WesternAnimation/BatmanTheDarkKnightReturns'': The Film

* AngstWhatAngst:
** Jason Todd was a good soldier. He honored Bruce.... but the war goes on.
** Bruce doesn't seem too upset about [[spoiler: Alfred's death.]]
* AnimationAgeGhetto: Averted.
* BrokenBase:
** The fanbase likes to debate over whether or not the edit to the hostage scene was justifiable (edited to where Batman disarms his opponent as opposed to shooting her dead). Supporters argue that it 'fixes' Batman's character, detractors argue that it [[{{Bowdlerization}} bowdlerizes the scene]], doesn't fit Frank Miller's [[AntiHero characterization]] of [[SociopathicHero Batman]] and dilutes the effectiveness of his BondOneLiner. Even more, some people don't realize that WordOfGod stated Batman didn't kill that Mutant in the comic despite being [[OnlyAFleshWound a shoulder shot with a really big gun.]]
** The BrokenBase got even wider on the release of the second part. Opinions go from EvenBetterSequel, okay, an inferior, to a horrible film compared to the first part. And let's not get the flak it gets for how {{Superman}} is portrayed, as well as the Cold War era propaganda and RonaldReagan's portrayal.
* CompleteMonster: The Joker once again.
* CrowningMusicOfAwesome: The soundtrack is ''epic''.
* DesignatedVillain: Superman, of all people.
* FauxSymbolism: The first time in ''Part 2'' when Clark meets with Bruce out horseback riding, an [[{{Eagleland}} eagle lands]] on Clark's arm. A few moments later, it takes off and seizes a defenseless mouse in front of Clark's feet.
* FoeYay:
** [[spoiler: [[SelfDemonstrating/TheJoker "Batman... darling!"]].]]
** Their last battle with Joker is has plenty of this.
* HarsherInHindsight: The film expands on Joker's shooting spree in the Tunnel of Love which can be very, ''very'' unsettling in the wake of the Aurora shooting and the Sandy Hook Massacre.
* MoralEventHorizon: In-universe, this happens when the mutants murdered a kidnapped child.
* {{Narm}}: Sure, he's a blind government lackey to an idiot president, but did Superman really have to show up in an outfit straight from a bad supermarket romance novel and have an eagle just coincidentally perch on his arm? [[http://i.imgur.com/YWypgHF.jpg]]
* {{Squick}}:
** At one point when Batman is "dealing" with a crook you can hear the guy's bones cracking and grinding.
** Likewise, [[spoiler:Batman breaking the arm and leg of the Mutant's leader]] ''will'' make you cringe.
* StrawmanHasAPoint: Regardless of Their portrayal as weak and unable to do what is necessary, many of the pundits are absolutely correct when They say Batman is an outlaw and They're not far off the point when They say he must bear some responsibility for groups acting in his name. And creating a culture that is both heavily dependent and admiring of a disturbed outlaw with no hesitation in using brutal violence is hardly an idea worth supporting.
* ToughActToFollow: PeterWeller as Batman is sometimes compared unfavorably with MichaelIronside, who voiced Batman in a ''Dark Knight Returns''-based segment of ''[[WesternAnimation/BatmanTheAnimatedSeries The New Batman Adventures]]''.
* WhatAnIdiot: The mayor tries to negotiate with the mutant leader in a jail cell and gets his throat torn out. The deputy mayor goes on TV and says he too is willing to negotiate, despite what happened.
* TheWoobie[=/=]JerkassWoobie: Harvey Dent.
** Bruce is also an IronWoobie, since he's still carrying the pain of losing his parents and the burden of his mission on his shoulders, yet he also enjoys doing what he does (a little too much).
----
[[redirect:YMMV/BatmanTheDarkKnightReturns]]
23rd Apr '13 5:31:53 PM urutapu
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!!!''Film/TheDarkKnightReturns'': The Film

to:

!!!''Film/TheDarkKnightReturns'': !!!''WesternAnimation/BatmanTheDarkKnightReturns'': The Film
16th Apr '13 1:04:40 PM Austin
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* FollowTheLeader: This miniseries singlehandedly ushered in the new age of Cranky Batman.
26th Mar '13 3:03:52 PM urutapu
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Added DiffLines:

* {{Narm}}: Sure, he's a blind government lackey to an idiot president, but did Superman really have to show up in an outfit straight from a bad supermarket romance novel and have an eagle just coincidentally perch on his arm? [[http://i.imgur.com/YWypgHF.jpg]]
25th Mar '13 7:01:07 PM thenightmareman
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Added DiffLines:

* StrawmanHasAPoint: Regardless of Their portrayal as weak and unable to do what is necessary, many of the pundits are absolutely correct when They say Batman is an outlaw and They're not far off the point when They say he must bear some responsibility for groups acting in his name. And creating a culture that is both heavily dependent and admiring of a disturbed outlaw with no hesitation in using brutal violence is hardly an idea worth supporting.
24th Mar '13 10:00:12 PM honorio78
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* FoeYay: [[spoiler: [[SelfDemonstrating/TheJoker "Batman... darling!"]].]]

to:

* FoeYay: FoeYay:
**
[[spoiler: [[SelfDemonstrating/TheJoker "Batman... darling!"]].]]
24th Mar '13 9:59:11 PM honorio78
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* BrokenBase: The fanbase likes to debate over whether or not the edit to the hostage scene was justifiable (edited to where Batman disarms his opponent as opposed to shooting her dead). Supporters argue that it 'fixes' Batman's character, detractors argue that it [[{{Bowdlerization}} bowdlerizes the scene]], doesn't fit Frank Miller's [[AntiHero characterization]] of [[SociopathicHero Batman]] and dilutes the effectiveness of his BondOneLiner. Even more, some people don't realize that WordOfGod stated Batman didn't kill that Mutant in the comic despite being [[OnlyAFleshWound a shoulder shot with a really big gun.]]

to:

* BrokenBase: BrokenBase:
**
The fanbase likes to debate over whether or not the edit to the hostage scene was justifiable (edited to where Batman disarms his opponent as opposed to shooting her dead). Supporters argue that it 'fixes' Batman's character, detractors argue that it [[{{Bowdlerization}} bowdlerizes the scene]], doesn't fit Frank Miller's [[AntiHero characterization]] of [[SociopathicHero Batman]] and dilutes the effectiveness of his BondOneLiner. Even more, some people don't realize that WordOfGod stated Batman didn't kill that Mutant in the comic despite being [[OnlyAFleshWound a shoulder shot with a really big gun.]]
24th Mar '13 9:57:21 PM honorio78
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** The BrokenBase got even wider on the release of the second part. Opinions go from EvenBetterSequel, okay, an inferior, to a horrible film compared to the first part. And let's not get the flak it gets for how {{Superman}} is portrayed, as well as the Cold War era propoganda and RonaldReagan's portrayal.

to:

** The BrokenBase got even wider on the release of the second part. Opinions go from EvenBetterSequel, okay, an inferior, to a horrible film compared to the first part. And let's not get the flak it gets for how {{Superman}} is portrayed, as well as the Cold War era propoganda propaganda and RonaldReagan's portrayal.
24th Mar '13 9:56:32 PM honorio78
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** The BrokenBase got even wider on the release of the second part. Opinions go from okay, an inferior, to a horrible film compared to the first part. And let's not get the flak it gets for how {{Superman}} is portrayed, as well as the Cold War era propoganda and RonaldReagan's portrayal.

to:

** The BrokenBase got even wider on the release of the second part. Opinions go from EvenBetterSequel, okay, an inferior, to a horrible film compared to the first part. And let's not get the flak it gets for how {{Superman}} is portrayed, as well as the Cold War era propoganda and RonaldReagan's portrayal.
24th Mar '13 9:37:34 PM TVRulezAgain
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* CompleteMonster: The Joker and the Mutant Leader, but Byron Brassballs shows that you don't have to be a twisted criminal to be an incredible jackass by beating a helpless priest and pushing a handicapped man in front of a subway train, and then remorselessly trying to justify his actions when being interviewed by the news (both times).

to:

* CompleteMonster: The Joker and the Mutant Leader, but Byron Brassballs shows that you don't have to be a twisted criminal to be an incredible jackass by beating a helpless priest and pushing a handicapped man in front of a subway train, and then remorselessly trying to justify his actions when being interviewed by the news (both times).Joker.



* MagnificentBastard: The Joker combines this with {{Complete Monster}}. His intent is to drive Batman to finally kill him and then be hunted down by the cops for [[ThouShaltNotKill crossing the line]]. Instead, Batman only breaks his neck enough to paralyse him. So what does Joker do? [[spoiler:HE TWISTS HIS NECK THE REST OF THE WAY ROUND AND FINISHES THE JOB]], ensuing that Batman will indeed be hunted down by the GCPD.

to:

* MagnificentBastard: The Joker combines this with {{Complete Monster}}.Joker. His intent is to drive Batman to finally kill him and then be hunted down by the cops for [[ThouShaltNotKill crossing the line]]. Instead, Batman only breaks his neck enough to paralyse him. So what does Joker do? [[spoiler:HE TWISTS HIS NECK THE REST OF THE WAY ROUND AND FINISHES THE JOB]], ensuing that Batman will indeed be hunted down by the GCPD.



* CompleteMonster: The Mutant leader. And the Joker once again.

to:

* CompleteMonster: The Mutant leader. And the Joker once again.
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http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=YMMV.TheDarkKnightReturns