History YMMV / StarTrekDeepSpaceNine

10th May '16 4:18:41 PM Pren
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** Some fans suspect Bashir didn't actually have any health problems, and he simply wasn't progressing fast enough for his parents' liking so they got him augmented. The major evidence is that the Mirror Bashir is presumably not augmented as it wouldn't be available to Terrans, yet he doesn't seem to have anything physically wrong with him.
15th Apr '16 8:38:57 PM Angeldeb82
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** Section 31. WellIntentionedExtremist spies who do what it takes to protect paradise from people who don't share its idealistic view of the universe, or mass murderers who grasp at any straw they can to justify despicable and evil actions, be it kidnapping, conspiracy or genocide? It appears it's really hard to find a consensus, as this page has been heavily edited thanks and because of them. WordOfGod says it is NecessarilyEvil, based on the former reasoning, but this interpretation ignores that the NecessaryEvil was ''already'' the job of Starfleet Intelligence.

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** Section 31. WellIntentionedExtremist spies who do what it takes to protect paradise from people who don't share its idealistic view of the universe, or mass murderers who grasp at any straw they can to justify despicable and evil actions, be it kidnapping, conspiracy or genocide? It appears it's really hard to find a consensus, as this page has been heavily edited thanks and because of them. WordOfGod says it is NecessarilyEvil, based on the former reasoning, but this interpretation ignores that the NecessaryEvil [[NecessarilyEvil Necessary Evil]] was ''already'' the job of Starfleet Intelligence.



** Major Kira and the Bajoran resistance as a whole can be seen in many ways. It heavily depends on how much you accept the interpretation of her as a WellIntentionedExtremist or YourTerroristsAreOurFreedomFighters or if you simply view her as an terrorist. Her speech in "The Darkness and the Light" is central to your interpretation of her. If you believe her defense, that every member of an occupying species is a legitimate target, then her actions are acceptable and even good. Otherwise you can view her acts against the Cardassians as anything across the spectrum of unforgivable, to NecessaryEvil, right up to tragic but necessary in a BlackAndGrayMorality situation. The setting also influences this defense, with the entirety of Bajor steeped in horrific crimes of mass-murder, attempted genocide, torture, rape, and detention camps that would give Auschwitz a run for its money, to name a few, and all of this for 50 years making life beyond miserable for nearly every Bajoran on the planet. When quality of life is that degraded, terrorism becomes much less a violent option that could be avoided. Add in that all this was perpetrated by a Cardassian Occupation Force that ''was'' mostly military, with the resistance performing terrorist attacks on its own soil only (i.e. not on Cardassia or against Cardassian territory) and against mostly military targets, and situational ethics really do come into play. Does the Resistance count as guerrilla warfare in an ongoing war for the planet? Terrorism against a governmental entity? Both? Her defense is helped by the fact that the Bajoran resistance won eventually by making the Occupation so unpalatable to Cardassia that they couldn't hold the planet. And the fact that she has shown remorse for actions she considered necessary but horrible. But if you view terrorism as unacceptable under any circumstances, then you're unlikely to find her defense acceptable. It's highly unlikely they would give her such a backstory today.

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** Major Kira and the Bajoran resistance as a whole can be seen in many ways. It heavily depends on how much you accept the interpretation of her as a WellIntentionedExtremist or YourTerroristsAreOurFreedomFighters or if you simply view her as an terrorist. Her speech in "The Darkness and the Light" is central to your interpretation of her. If you believe her defense, that every member of an occupying species is a legitimate target, then her actions are acceptable and even good. Otherwise you can view her acts against the Cardassians as anything across the spectrum of unforgivable, to NecessaryEvil, NecessarilyEvil, right up to tragic but necessary in a BlackAndGrayMorality situation. The setting also influences this defense, with the entirety of Bajor steeped in horrific crimes of mass-murder, attempted genocide, torture, rape, and detention camps that would give Auschwitz a run for its money, to name a few, and all of this for 50 years making life beyond miserable for nearly every Bajoran on the planet. When quality of life is that degraded, terrorism becomes much less a violent option that could be avoided. Add in that all this was perpetrated by a Cardassian Occupation Force that ''was'' mostly military, with the resistance performing terrorist attacks on its own soil only (i.e. not on Cardassia or against Cardassian territory) and against mostly military targets, and situational ethics really do come into play. Does the Resistance count as guerrilla warfare in an ongoing war for the planet? Terrorism against a governmental entity? Both? Her defense is helped by the fact that the Bajoran resistance won eventually by making the Occupation so unpalatable to Cardassia that they couldn't hold the planet. And the fact that she has shown remorse for actions she considered necessary but horrible. But if you view terrorism as unacceptable under any circumstances, then you're unlikely to find her defense acceptable. It's highly unlikely they would give her such a backstory today.
15th Apr '16 8:37:39 PM Angeldeb82
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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation:

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* AlternateCharacterInterpretation:AlternativeCharacterInterpretation:



** Major Kira and the Bajoran resistance as a whole can be seen in many ways. It heavily depends on how much you accept the interpretation of her as a WellIntentionedExtremist or YourTerroristsAreOurFreedomFighters or if you simply view her as an terrorist. Her speech in "The Darkness and the Light" is central to your interpretation of her. If you believe her defense, that every member of an occupying species is a legitimate target, then her actions are acceptable and even good. Otherwise you can view her acts against the Cardassians as anything across the spectrum of unforgivable, to NecessaryEvil, right up to tragic but necessary in a BlackAndGreyMorality situation. The setting also influences this defense, with the entirety of Bajor steeped in horrific crimes of mass-murder, attempted genocide, torture, rape, and detention camps that would give Auschwitz a run for its money, to name a few, and all of this for 50 years making life beyond miserable for nearly every Bajoran on the planet. When quality of life is that degraded, terrorism becomes much less a violent option that could be avoided. Add in that all this was perpetrated by a Cardassian Occupation Force that ''was'' mostly military, with the resistance performing terrorist attacks on its own soil only (i.e. not on Cardassia or against Cardassian territory) and against mostly military targets, and situational ethics really do come into play. Does the Resistance count as guerrilla warfare in an ongoing war for the planet? Terrorism against a governmental entity? Both? Her defense is helped by the fact that the Bajoran resistance won eventually by making the Occupation so unpalatable to Cardassia that they couldn't hold the planet. And the fact that she has shown remorse for actions she considered necessary but horrible. But if you view terrorism as unacceptable under any circumstances, then you're unlikely to find her defense acceptable. It's highly unlikely they would give her such a backstory today.

to:

** Major Kira and the Bajoran resistance as a whole can be seen in many ways. It heavily depends on how much you accept the interpretation of her as a WellIntentionedExtremist or YourTerroristsAreOurFreedomFighters or if you simply view her as an terrorist. Her speech in "The Darkness and the Light" is central to your interpretation of her. If you believe her defense, that every member of an occupying species is a legitimate target, then her actions are acceptable and even good. Otherwise you can view her acts against the Cardassians as anything across the spectrum of unforgivable, to NecessaryEvil, right up to tragic but necessary in a BlackAndGreyMorality BlackAndGrayMorality situation. The setting also influences this defense, with the entirety of Bajor steeped in horrific crimes of mass-murder, attempted genocide, torture, rape, and detention camps that would give Auschwitz a run for its money, to name a few, and all of this for 50 years making life beyond miserable for nearly every Bajoran on the planet. When quality of life is that degraded, terrorism becomes much less a violent option that could be avoided. Add in that all this was perpetrated by a Cardassian Occupation Force that ''was'' mostly military, with the resistance performing terrorist attacks on its own soil only (i.e. not on Cardassia or against Cardassian territory) and against mostly military targets, and situational ethics really do come into play. Does the Resistance count as guerrilla warfare in an ongoing war for the planet? Terrorism against a governmental entity? Both? Her defense is helped by the fact that the Bajoran resistance won eventually by making the Occupation so unpalatable to Cardassia that they couldn't hold the planet. And the fact that she has shown remorse for actions she considered necessary but horrible. But if you view terrorism as unacceptable under any circumstances, then you're unlikely to find her defense acceptable. It's highly unlikely they would give her such a backstory today.



*** Their omnicidal enemies the Pah-Wraiths, who are presented as "false" prophets who wish to use Dukat as their [[{{TheAntichrist}} Anti-Emissary]] and take back the wormhole. Complete with Pah-Wraith cultists who turned away from the Prophets once the wormhole closed. Unlike the Prophets, who had [[{{BlueAndOrangeMorality}} trouble understanding corporal morality]], the Pah-Wraiths were basically presented as cackling fire demons who knew exactly what they were doing. This resulted in a sort of [[{{BlackAndGrayMorality}} Blue and Black]] morality that relied on old fantasy tropes rather than the morally grey setting the show had been so careful to construct.

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*** Their omnicidal enemies the Pah-Wraiths, who are presented as "false" prophets who wish to use Dukat as their [[{{TheAntichrist}} [[TheAntichrist Anti-Emissary]] and take back the wormhole. Complete with Pah-Wraith cultists who turned away from the Prophets once the wormhole closed. Unlike the Prophets, who had [[{{BlueAndOrangeMorality}} [[BlueAndOrangeMorality trouble understanding corporal morality]], the Pah-Wraiths were basically presented as cackling fire demons who knew exactly what they were doing. This resulted in a sort of [[{{BlackAndGrayMorality}} [[BlackAndGrayMorality Blue and Black]] morality that relied on old fantasy tropes rather than the morally grey setting the show had been so careful to construct.



** The Dominion War itself. DarkerAndEdgier plot arc that breathed new life into a stagnant franchise? Ron Moore deciding to do a test run for BattlestarGalactica2003, and applying a chainsaw and flamethower to everything that made Star Trek different from everything else on the air by sinking everything to BlackAndGrayMorality at best? A higher-budget rip-off of {{BabylonFive}}'s Shadow War arc?
** The addition of Worf. Necessary upgrade to the cast? A little testosterone in a cerebral show? Ron Moore's obnoxious GaryStu AuthorAvatar?

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** The Dominion War itself. DarkerAndEdgier plot arc that breathed new life into a stagnant franchise? Ron Moore deciding to do a test run for BattlestarGalactica2003, Series/BattlestarGalactica2003, and applying a chainsaw and flamethower to everything that made Star Trek different from everything else on the air by sinking everything to BlackAndGrayMorality at best? A higher-budget rip-off of {{BabylonFive}}'s Series/BabylonFive's Shadow War arc?
** The addition of Worf. Necessary upgrade to the cast? A little testosterone in a cerebral show? Ron Moore's obnoxious GaryStu AuthorAvatar?



** Weyoun, come on. He ''was'' programmed by the Founders to be evil... (Except for Weyoun 6, who deserves {{Woobie}} status through his HeroicSacrifice.)

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** Weyoun, come on. He ''was'' programmed by the Founders to be evil... (Except for Weyoun 6, who deserves {{Woobie}} [[TheWoobie Woobie]] status through his HeroicSacrifice.)



** "The Darkness and the Light": It's perfectly okay to kill civilians to get [[OccupiersOutOfOurCountry Occupiers Out Of Your Country]].

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** "The Darkness and the Light": It's perfectly okay to kill civilians to get [[OccupiersOutOfOurCountry Occupiers Out Of of Your Country]].



** "Our Man Bashir" had a HolodeckMalfunction replace one of Julian's in-game {{Love Interest}}s with Kira Nerys. [[RomanceOnTheSet Alexander Siddig got Nana Visitor pregnant a year or so later]] (leading to the Kira-carrying-the-O'Briens'-baby story arc).

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** "Our Man Bashir" had a HolodeckMalfunction replace one of Julian's in-game {{Love Interest}}s LoveInterests with Kira Nerys. [[RomanceOnTheSet Alexander Siddig got Nana Visitor pregnant a year or so later]] (leading to the Kira-carrying-the-O'Briens'-baby story arc).



*** In the series finale, the main characters are reminiscing on their times aboard the station, and we get to see a series [[HappyFlashback happy flashbacks]] for each character, with scenes from earlier episodes. ''All'' of O'Brien's flashbacks are of him and Bashir doing various things, while Keiko doesn't appear in any of them.

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*** In the series finale, the main characters are reminiscing on their times aboard the station, and we get to see a series [[HappyFlashback happy flashbacks]] {{happy flashback}}s for each character, with scenes from earlier episodes. ''All'' of O'Brien's flashbacks are of him and Bashir doing various things, while Keiko doesn't appear in any of them.



** Female examples are hinted at in the Mirror Universe episodes. Also in the episode "Rejoined", which wasn't directly about same-sex relationships (indeed, none of the characters even comment on that) but which is a pretty clear allegory for homophobia through the Trill taboo on "reassociating" with lovers from past lives.



* LesYay: Hinted at in the Mirror Universe episodes. Also in the episode "Rejoined", which wasn't directly about same-sex relationships (indeed, none of the characters even comment on that) but which is a pretty clear allegory for homophobia through the Trill taboo on "reassociating" with lovers from past lives.



*** He was serving on Saratoga at the time. As we all know, [[WebSite/SFDebris Saratoga is Starfleet's bitch.]]

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*** He was serving on Saratoga at the time. As we all know, [[WebSite/SFDebris Saratoga is Starfleet's bitch.]]bitch]].



** The runabout ''Rio Grande'' is somewhat famous among fans for how it managed to be the only runabout to survive the series, with only the ''Rubicon'' (delivered to the station near the end of season 3) coming close to matching its length of time. In universe, the way that [=DS=]9 goes through runabouts got a [[LampshadeHanging lampshade,]] making the ''Rio Grande'' notable in its survival.

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** The runabout ''Rio Grande'' is somewhat famous among fans for how it managed to be the only runabout to survive the series, with only the ''Rubicon'' (delivered to the station near the end of season 3) coming close to matching its length of time. In universe, the way that [=DS=]9 goes through runabouts got a [[LampshadeHanging lampshade,]] {{lampshade|Hanging}}, making the ''Rio Grande'' notable in its survival.



* OlderThanTheyThink: "Extreme Measures" feels like a WholePlotReference to [[{{Film/Inception}} Inception]], except for one thing: it was made 11 years earlier.

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* OlderThanTheyThink: "Extreme Measures" feels like a WholePlotReference to [[{{Film/Inception}} Inception]], {{Film/Inception}}, except for one thing: it was made 11 years earlier.



--->'''Ira Behr''': [[WarIsHell War sucks]]... You win, but you still lose. And we needed to show that as uncompromisingly as possible. War isn't just exploding ships and special effects.

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--->'''Ira Behr''': [[WarIsHell War sucks]]... sucks...]] You win, but you still lose. And we needed to show that as uncompromisingly as possible. War isn't just exploding ships and special effects.



** That's the entire thrust of "Waltz". Sisko begins the story with an ambivalent attitude about putting Dukat in a Federation Court, and ends it regretting he didn't kill Dukat during any point in the last six years and let him elude their grasp. It's about an individual coming to the conclusion that they ''are'' the arbiter of right and wrong in the universe, and rejecting moral relativism. Or maybe it's Ron Moore telling the fanboys to shut up and watch and [[DearNegativeReader stop sending him letters.]] That's more or less the message of every Dukat story post-"Indiscretion". ("You not supposed to '''LIKE''' him, nerds!")

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** That's the entire thrust of "Waltz". Sisko begins the story with an ambivalent attitude about putting Dukat in a Federation Court, and ends it regretting he didn't kill Dukat during any point in the last six years and let him elude their grasp. It's about an individual coming to the conclusion that they ''are'' the arbiter of right and wrong in the universe, and rejecting moral relativism. Or maybe it's Ron Moore telling the fanboys to shut up and watch and [[DearNegativeReader stop sending him letters.]] letters]]. That's more or less the message of every Dukat story post-"Indiscretion". ("You not supposed to '''LIKE''' him, nerds!")



** Dukat also gets this treatment in one episode, at the end of Sacrifice of Angels and the beginning of Waltz. Sisko's log, at the beginning of Waltz puts it into words; [[spoiler: He lost an empire, he lost his daughter, and he nearly lost his mind. Whatever his crimes... isn't that enough punishment for one lifetime?]]. Of course, since it's [[BigBad Dukat]]...

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** Dukat also gets this treatment in one episode, at the end of Sacrifice of Angels and the beginning of Waltz. Sisko's log, at the beginning of Waltz puts it into words; words: [[spoiler: He lost an empire, he lost his daughter, and he nearly lost his mind. Whatever his crimes... isn't that enough punishment for one lifetime?]]. lifetime?]] Of course, since it's [[BigBad Dukat]]...
15th Apr '16 12:00:15 PM case
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* {{Narm}}:
** "Field of Fire," a seventh season episode, has this in the form of [[spoiler: Lieutenant Illario appearing in a nightmare of Ezri's where he is allegedly the killer of the real Illario, and Odo says "I'm sorry, Lieutenant (Dax), there's nothing more annoying than a corpse with a mind of its own."]]
** In the episode "Broken Link," Odo returns to the Great Link for judgment. He's later thrown to the surface of Great Link "ocean," gasping, shouting, and thrashing around, before washing up on shore unconscious. The scene is meant to show that something is wrong and the Great Link has rejected him, but he just looks like a ridiculously bad swimmer with a leg cramp instead!
** "Waltz" was loaded with it. It was supposed to be a horrific view into Dukat's psychosis, but it just makes him look like a petty manchild who talks to himself, [[MoodWhiplash until the final act anyway]].
** Odo's [[spoiler:departure]] in "What We Leave Behind", wading backwards into the muck that is his own people while wearing a tuxedo.
** The part in "What You Leave Behind" where Dukat uses his powers to make Sisko bow down to him. It's obviously a show of power by a completely egotistical villain, but it's presented in a way that makes it hard not to laugh, especially with the way Sisko calls him pathetic.
*** Also the part where after Garak kills Weyoun, and the Female Changeling says she wishes he hadn't done that. Garak retorting that he was hoping she'd say he was the last one is just priceless.
** In ''[[Recap/StarTrekDeepSpaceNineS03E09Defiant Defiant]]'', Riker from ''[[Series/StartrekThenextgeneration The Next Generation]]'' comes to visit the station. At one point he pulls off his fake sideburns to reveal... a goatee! '''[[GoodHairEvilHair WHAT TREACHERY IS THIS?]]'''
** This is supposed a [[TheReveal dramatic moment]], as his lack of full beard means this is not William Riker but Thomas Riker, his doppelgänger. However, the scene comes off as incredibly goofy, especially if you haven't seen the ''Next Generation'' episode where Thomas previously appeared, and therefore have no idea what this beard-pulling business is all about.

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* {{Narm}}:
** "Field of Fire," a seventh season episode, has this in
{{Narm}}: See the form of [[spoiler: Lieutenant Illario appearing in a nightmare of Ezri's where he is allegedly the killer ''Deep Space Nine'' section of the real Illario, and Odo says "I'm sorry, Lieutenant (Dax), there's nothing more annoying than a corpse with a mind of its own."]]
** In the episode "Broken Link," Odo returns to the Great Link for judgment. He's later thrown to the surface of Great Link "ocean," gasping, shouting, and thrashing around, before washing up on shore unconscious. The scene is meant to show that something is wrong and the Great Link has rejected him, but he just looks like a ridiculously bad swimmer with a leg cramp instead!
** "Waltz" was loaded with it. It was supposed to be a horrific view into Dukat's psychosis, but it just makes him look like a petty manchild who talks to himself, [[MoodWhiplash until the final act anyway]].
** Odo's [[spoiler:departure]] in "What We Leave Behind", wading backwards into the muck that is his own people while wearing a tuxedo.
** The part in "What You Leave Behind" where Dukat uses his powers to make Sisko bow down to him. It's obviously a show of power by a completely egotistical villain, but it's presented in a way that makes it hard not to laugh, especially with the way Sisko calls him pathetic.
*** Also the part where after Garak kills Weyoun, and the Female Changeling says she wishes he hadn't done that. Garak retorting that he was hoping she'd say he was the last one is just priceless.
** In ''[[Recap/StarTrekDeepSpaceNineS03E09Defiant Defiant]]'', Riker from ''[[Series/StartrekThenextgeneration The Next Generation]]'' comes to visit the station. At one point he pulls off his fake sideburns to reveal... a goatee! '''[[GoodHairEvilHair WHAT TREACHERY IS THIS?]]'''
** This is supposed a [[TheReveal dramatic moment]], as his lack of full beard means this is not William Riker but Thomas Riker, his doppelgänger. However, the scene comes off as incredibly goofy, especially if you haven't seen the ''Next Generation'' episode where Thomas previously appeared, and therefore have no idea what this beard-pulling business is all about.
[[Narm/StarTrek Star Trek Narm]] page.
11th Mar '16 6:55:51 PM trumpetmarietta
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** The runabout ''Rio Grande'' is somewhat famous among fans for how it managed to be the only runabout to survive the series, with only the Rubicon (delivered to the station near the end of season 3) coming close to matching its length of time. In universe, the way that [=DS=]9 goes through runabouts got a [[LampshadeHanging lampshade,]] making the Rio Grande notable in its survival.

to:

** The runabout ''Rio Grande'' is somewhat famous among fans for how it managed to be the only runabout to survive the series, with only the Rubicon ''Rubicon'' (delivered to the station near the end of season 3) coming close to matching its length of time. In universe, the way that [=DS=]9 goes through runabouts got a [[LampshadeHanging lampshade,]] making the Rio Grande ''Rio Grande'' notable in its survival.
6th Mar '16 8:49:53 AM strejda
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**** He was serving on Saratoga at the time. As we all know, [[WebSite/SFDebris Saratoga is Starfleet's bitch.]]
9th Feb '16 10:52:18 AM backpack
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** A minor example in ''Sanctuary''. Jake tells Nog that a Dabo girl is studying entomology, and explains that this is the "study of bugs." Nog responds "You mean she wants to be a chef." In the 21st century the taboo against eating insects, particularly grasshoppers and crickets, is starting to fade, and major food companies are looking to them as a more efficient source of protein than livestock.

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** A minor example in ''Sanctuary''. Jake tells Nog that a Dabo girl is studying entomology, and explains that this is the "study of bugs." Nog responds "You mean she wants to be a chef." This seems to be an example of the Ferengi as a bizarre alien culture. In the 21st century the taboo against eating insects, particularly grasshoppers and crickets, is starting to fade, and major food companies are looking to them as a more efficient source of protein than livestock.
9th Feb '16 10:51:37 AM backpack
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Added DiffLines:

** A minor example in ''Sanctuary''. Jake tells Nog that a Dabo girl is studying entomology, and explains that this is the "study of bugs." Nog responds "You mean she wants to be a chef." In the 21st century the taboo against eating insects, particularly grasshoppers and crickets, is starting to fade, and major food companies are looking to them as a more efficient source of protein than livestock.
27th Jan '16 12:10:42 AM EriksBlue
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** Odo and Quark. Season 1 episode 9. Quark asking Odo to blow on his dice.
26th Jan '16 4:39:28 AM backpack
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** Were Li Nalas' exploits really distorted by retelling? He hated his fame so much it's not hard to imagine him making up the "I shot an unarmed Cardassian in his underwear" story.

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** Were Li Nalas' exploits really distorted by retelling? He hated his fame so much it's not hard to imagine him making up the "I shot an unarmed Cardassian in his underwear" story. Even after Sisko convinced him of his importance as a symbol he might have let Sisko continue to believe he was a fraud so that he had someone to talk to who saw him as just a man.
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